Never Would Have Guessed

Episode 8: The things we don't say out loud

• Bethany Fray • Season 1 • Episode 8

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There’s so much we don’t say about our experiences as survivors. This is where shame incubates, which can keep us trapped in our trauma responses. In today’s episode, we confess the things we don’t say out loud that leave us feeling so alone.

Follow us on Instagram @bethany_fray and @charissabrim and online at neverwouldhaveguessed.com

Charissa

Hello, and welcome to

Bethany

never would have guessed the

Charissa

podcast. I'm

Bethany

one of your hosts,

Charissa

Bethany fray.

Bethany

And I'm your other

Charissa

host Caressa brim. This is a place where we

Bethany

dive into the things never would have guessed

Charissa

about sexual drama. Here's

Bethany

what we want you to

Charissa

No matter

Bethany

your relationship sexual

Charissa

trauma, you are conversation. And while this podcast centers around our experience, the concepts cover

Bethany

may apply other traumas as

Charissa

well. We are not therapist, but

Bethany

has been

Charissa

game changing for of us. seen that safe conversations with trusted people

Bethany

be an anchor

Charissa

in the healing

Bethany

process. We know

Charissa

firsthand that this can be a heavy topic. So

Bethany

this your official invitation to

Charissa

own your experience of this conversation.

Bethany

get minutes in

Charissa

and feel like your have become permanent earrings, Just hit the pause button. a breaths,

Bethany

move your body a

Charissa

bit. Decided

Bethany

today is a good day to enter this conversation.

Charissa

And then trust your decision

Bethany

with no

Charissa

shame. At

Bethany

the end of every episode, we

Charissa

will guide you through

Bethany

a two minute grounding

Charissa

exercise. leave you feeling

Bethany

light and empowered

Charissa

by honest conversation.

Bethany

Thank you so much for joining us. We are so glad you're here.

Charissa

There is so much that we don't say out loud about our experiences as survivors. This is where shame, incubates. And ultimately this can keep us trapped in our trauma responses. It's hard to feel seen in the details of her story, because sharing about our experiences is so tricky. We don't want to trigger the other person. What if our story is too much for them? What if it's not as bad as theirs? Well in today's episode, Bethany and I go there. We confess the things we don't say out loud. That leave us feeling so alone. At this point in the season, Bethany and I have built up trust with each other. And hopefully with YouTube. This gives us a greater permission to take a more raw and honest approach and sharing a few of the specifics of our stories. And there's a point to that. We hope that in sharing some of the specifics of our completely different experiences. It can help you dear listener. To feel seen and the specifics of your story. And most importantly, Held in the truth. That you're not the only one. And there's nothing wrong with you.

Bethany

Most of our episodes start with conversations that you and I have together. And in those conversations, there is a connecting point, an aha, discovery,

Charissa

Hmm. Yeah.

Bethany

So this conversation is much like the rest and that it started out as one of us going, Hey, can we talk about something? and so I think an important context for, The one listing is just to say to you, Carissa, I am so thankful for the vulnerability that you brought in that started this conversation. it was vulnerability without an agenda and a vulnerability with such trust in yourself and in our relationship. And, I don't know that we would be here without you stepping into that space and saying, Hey, this feels achy and a little bit scary and I wanna venture into this together. So I just wanna start off by saying thanks for making that space for yourself and for me and for the person listening. We are here because You Were willing to journey into that

Charissa

Hmm. Oh man. Well even just hearing that, I'm like, well, now I'm emotional again. So here we go. Back into it.

Bethany

I ha I do have a roll of toilet

Charissa

yeah,

Bethany

We were like, Okay, Waterworks episode.

Charissa

Yeah thank you for reflecting back to me your experience with me sometimes it's hard to tell, you know, you just kind of like show up in a space and you're like,

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

Let's see what happens here. I feel like that reflection is such a helpful posture, for this conversation because when we, started talking about this podcast, one of the core things that we wanted to do with like lend voice to the things that are so unseen or feel too shameful to talk about or too scary to say out loud. And that just continues to be such a deep, well There is so many things that we as humans carry that we're like, This is too scary to say out loud, or I'm not gonna say it right. Or

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

maybe it would be easier just not to go here. And I think we've felt that tension in trying to figure out like what to speak about on this podcast.

Bethany

Mm.

Charissa

Is this worth going there? Is this self-protective? Is this too vulnerable? Is this so not vulnerable that it's just boring as hell? like, and we have to reverse the spectrum. Have we not?

Bethany

It's true.

Charissa

Yes. I just appreciate you centering us into the posture that you and I have in this conversation, this is a vulnerable conversation and there's parts of this that feel a little scary to both of us, but also they're so needed in like really important ways and the like stakes that exist for not having these conversations. Like they're just so high we will traverse this in a way that feels. Safe for both of us, but also these are the conversations we wanna have cuz they matter.

Bethany

Yeah, You described our process so well, that feeling of okay, is this just for you and I as friends? is this just a benefit? Being connected to each other and both being survivors, or is this something that we're ready to bring other people into, so to speak? there's risk and there's intentionality and there's so much thought that goes into this. at the end of the day, both of us looked at each other and kind of checked in. It was like, Okay, how are you feeling about this? How am I feeling about this? And both of us said like, Let's go here, We're ready to go here, with each other.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

At the end of the first time we had this conversation, there was a through line that we were able to name together. Even though the experiences that you and I were talking about were almost opposite, just as friends, we are approaching each other, like how do we, how do we stay connected? How do we keep the trust and the understanding and feeling seen by each other when our stories are so different? In the conversation, we were trying to find our common ground. what we wound up naming was this deep feeling of being unseen in our experiences and a comparison to other women and larger narratives at play when it comes to trauma, and just feeling other and therefore isolated. What we decided at the end of our conversation was, Okay, we wanna figure out how to. Out loud, like to take the risk with each other

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

speak those places that so desperately want to be seen, knowing that we have different experiences, but trusting that in those different experiences, we can each hold that for each other without it negating our own

Charissa

Yes.

Bethany

Like to be seen doesn't mean that you have to say, Oh, me too. That's exactly what it looks like for me.

Charissa

Yes.

Bethany

So we're gonna explore that together today.

Charissa

Yeah, Ironically, in the two of us talking about the specifics and taking that risk with each other to be like, Hey, will you see me in this without.

Bethany

Mm.

Charissa

trying to put it in the context of your story and vice versa, like in doing so, that allowed us to get to the heart, to these bigger themes, to find that connection piece. So often we think that the way to preserve or to find that connection is to not get too specific if someone else's experience is different. But ironically, it's in getting so specific that we see, oh my gosh, we're having very similar experiences in our exact opposite experiences.

Bethany

Mm-hmm. I'm so glad that you brought that up the other thing that makes me think of is, we've been intentional this whole season to say like,, Hey, The point here is not to just dole out all the details of our story we're not just here to air our vulnerability, Right.

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

Like there's a, there's a greater purpose in our story and I don't think it's a, but it's an, and

Charissa

Hmm

Bethany

For those of you listening to this podcast, we have built some trust with each other over the weeks and over the months. And I think you and I both were feeling like, to your point, there is a gift in some of the specifics that releases shame and sheds light onto the details where you go, I needed that.

Charissa

Mm.

Bethany

It's a both and, there's a nuance there that I feel like is important to name. That doesn't negate where we've been. It doesn't negate where we're headed. But just allows us in relationship to go, you know, sometimes I just wanna talk about the bigger theme, and sometimes I wanna talk about the, impact on me as a person or this impact on us as a culture or as a group of people who've experienced a category of trauma. And then when we feel safe enough, when we trust ourselves, when we trust the other person that we're entering into the conversation with, then we get to the place where we go, You know what? I need to be seen. Like, I really need to be seen in the specifics of my experience. Because there are narratives and there are sentences that go through my brain. That are keeping me locked up and isolated from other people, even within this group of people who have experienced categorically the same trauma that I have.

Charissa

Even when we find ourselves in categories, there is still a way that our mind gets in there and says, But I'm different, but this is not the same for me. Or, But no one else is experiencing this. The need for belonging is so intrinsic but yet when we're given these containers to belong in, we're still on high alert being like, But do I really belong here?

Bethany

There's an experience that comes to mind for me when you say that. it was the first time that I ever went to a group therapy session, I think that maybe I had gone to like two or three, one-on-one therapy sessions before. So first of all, I wasn't very comfortable with like, what is there be,, How am I supposed to show up? Oh, it's so vulnerable and it just feels weird. And you're like, you don't understand the social construct of like, what am I supposed to do in this situation? So it was this group therapy session for women who'd experienced sexual trauma. It was on I think a Monday night, and it was at our church and it was in the back of the building, like literally in the sound booth that had no windows and like all the rest of the lights of the church were turned off. I think whoever was organizing this was trying to make it discreet so that it felt like, Oh, I can show up. But, but it, like, I remember walking into the church and I was like, Why does it feel like no one is in this building?

Charissa

I understand that need to be discreet, but there's such a fine line between discrete and hidden

Bethany

Yeah. It felt hidden. It felt, it felt like this is something to hide.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I walked into this small room And I remember one of my biggest fears going in was I didn't wanna hear somebody describe their experience of sexual trauma. Cause I was just like, it's too much. Like I don't wanna hear other people's stories.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

And at that point, I think I was 16 or 17 and I had just named that what I experienced was sexual abuse. And I didn't know that there are different types of experiences and different ways that that trauma can come through. And so in my head it was like, if you're sexually abused, like this is what happens to you. I remember hearing this one woman speak and she must have been in her mid thirties at the time. looking back as a 16 year old, I was like, Oh, I think she's like middle aged. And I'm like, Nah, I'm pretty sure she was my age now,

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

she was describing how pornography was just out in the open in her house and she was sexualized as a young girl, in her family system, and felt very unsafe to her. I remember her saying, nobody ever touched me, and yet I felt sexualized. And she was, she was coming to terms with her own. Sexual trauma, which now looking back, I go, Yeah, that is sexual trauma. But as 16 year old listening to her story, all I could think was, Oh my gosh, I don't belong here. If that's what you think sexual abuse is, I can't even begin to tell you 5% of what I experienced. it felt like it made my experience look like a horror film

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

Even now it's like, I don't wanna go into specific details of the physicality. I was abused by my dad in ways that my body should have never been used.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I mean the years that I experienced this abuse, I came into consciousness as a person with this is my reality, and experienced that until I was. So for me, what's so hard when I talk with other women is one, not only was it my dad, the person who's supposed to protect you, this,, the person who's supposed to like, make dumb jokes that you're like, Oh dad, you know, like the person who's supposed to help provide for you. Looking back, not only is the trauma who my dad wasn't, but the fact that my sexual abuse was from him, from, somebody who like gave me my genetics,

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I grew up feeling just like a freak. I mean, talk about stigma. The first time one. Therapist just kind of like threw out the word incest. honestly, my first thought was well, that's not my story. I'm not, I wasn't born from two cousins. It has been just this deep cavern between me and other people. where sometimes I just don't even say that. The sexual abuse experience with my dad, cuz I'm like,

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I don't even know how to compare Our stories

Charissa

Mm-hmm.

Bethany

Sometimes I think I get so tired of holding it that I'll almost in a jokey way, being like, Well yeah, my dad was abusive and he was in prison for a decade. I just kind of spit all these facts out

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

then people are kind of shell shocked, like, holy, Oh wow. You know?

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

Man, levels of trauma is so tricky. It's so tricky. And I think that's what separates us. cuz our brains wanna categorize things.

Charissa

Mm-hmm.

Bethany

I remember hearing this story of a woman and I heard what she experienced and I was like, Oh, that's worse.

Charissa

Mmm.

Bethany

I finally had this narrative of oh, okay, what I experienced wasn't the worst thing possible.

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

In, my brain's, trying to categorize, trying to make sense of things And trying to group myself with other people, it winds up isolating me.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

It's been really lonely. Honestly, like mo, most of my journey, like holding my story has been so lonely it has made me feel like there is something wrong with me. Like the ways that my PTs showed up and the ways that, I hear other people talk about their parents there are so many ways that this has showed up in my life that has just made me feel like you are alone. Your story is extreme you have to figure it out cuz there's something wrong with you. So you need to overcome this so that you can connect with other people. Cuz I don't wanna be alone.

Charissa

Yeah. As like a friend and person who cares for you, I just want to say out loud what a sacred space you've just led us into thank you for that vulnerability and just being honest about this weird tension of holding the realities of your story as a person who exists among other people with different stories, I like hear the ache in you recounting atrocities the phrase that you came into consciousness. I want you to feel seen in that, that there is something Exceptionally evil in that. And it's okay that you want the weight of that to be acknowledged because it should be. And then I just wanna offer such compassion for when your brain is just trying so hard to protect you And so the minute you're, you encounter a story that feels quote worse, you're like, Okay, well now that is different. And I hear the release and

Bethany

Um,

Charissa

Oh good, I'm not the absolute worst. My heart just breaks and wants to crawl through the screen and give you a hug You are exceptionally good at helping us see the and in all of our situations. And both of the realities that you've just described can exist at the same time. You can feel that your experience deserves a different weight or attention while also feeling like, okay, but it wasn't that. And, and the fact that those two realities can exist in the midst of very real pain is very discombobulating.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

How do you even hold that?

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

I'm just so thankful for you, being brave and going first to offer the confession that This is what happened. This is what it feels like to exist in other spaces where I'm supposed to find belonging, and these are the ways that I feel like I can't find belonging.

Bethany

Yeah, That phrase that you said, these are the spaces I'm supposed to find belonging. you named a pain point that has been with me.

Charissa

Mm.

Bethany

I mean, just for as long as I can remember.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I'm an empath and I'm intuitive and I also think trauma response. Puts a magnifying glass on that. We all know

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

whether people, have said it to me or whether I could just feel it from them. This almost like anger with me, like, assimilate,

Charissa

Mm.

Bethany

belong. You know, like be part, And just this feeling of like, I can't, like, I don't know how

Charissa

yeah.

Bethany

you know, like I actually don't know what that feels like. and feeling like I have to be the one to lean in.

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

I have to learn myself. I have to heal myself so that I can lean in because others just can't see me. Cuz. The other piece, Chris, is having friends say to me and feeling so much love and vulnerability and honesty as they say I can't fully go into your story with you. It's so much like I just can't go there and almost this like a grief in their eyes, you know,

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

That's something I carry with me.

Charissa

Yeah. whether it's acutely expressed or just Communicated the idea that I can't go into this with you right now. I can imagine for you, you're like, Wouldn't it be nice to have the choice?

Bethany

Oh yes, exactly.

Charissa

Like, I also can't go into this, but here I am.

Bethany

Oh, I mean, wow. Did you feel the a hundred pounds that just got lifted off when you said that? Exactly. It's like, yeah, no shit.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

Yeah. And

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

not to overuse that word in this conversation and, and. I can also think about the stories of others who I love who've lost a child to cancer, who have other things that my trauma muscles haven't had to hold the weight of.

Charissa

Yeah,

Bethany

And I feel that,

Charissa

yeah,

Bethany

My brain goes like, All right, we can step into this for a few minutes, and then you gotta step out.

Charissa

Yeah,

Bethany

yeah, wouldn't it be nice for me to not step into this And then I also am like, and I have felt that in other people's stories as well.

Charissa

Yes, These are hard things to just say out loud we've kinda like talked about this in other episodes, one of my, call it a strength, call it a coping skill, However we feel like painting it, I try really hard to do appropriate reframes. The first time that I heard someone talk about trauma growth, I was like, amazing. We have found the reef reframe, God bless. Now I understand. It's all good. We have trauma growth. We're so, we are really

Bethany

See, it's fine. We're fine.

Charissa

worth it. Side note, it is not totally worth it. Ooh. But what I see at play here is the very true reality that if we want to grow a muscle, we break it down and then it grows back, stronger. And so there is absolutely no way Bethany, that you have experienced what you have and you have found ways to like, Overcome and channel strength and heal and exist in a way that from the outside as an initial impression. It's like, yeah, you belong here, you're like the rest of us And then obviously when you pull back the layers, you see all that is swirling behind that and all that. It takes and has taken for you to find these foot holes in life where you're rallying for your life.

Bethany

Mm.

Charissa

You can't deny that there is incredible strengths among other attributes that exist there. And so it's very interesting when you have someone who. Has these incredible strengths and attributes and also feels wildly unseen, and then has to interact in a world where everyone else holds their own varied pain.

Bethany

Right.

Charissa

It's an interesting dynamic for you to be very well equipped to understand and to empathize with someone else's story, but then to also be like, But I don't necessarily feel seen in mine. That presents a very hard tension to enter into other people's stories where on the one hand, you want to be able to, and you are able to, but on the other hand it's like, but I can't because I'm, I'm depleted because I'm, I don't feel seen and I'm isolated.

Bethany

yeah, I have goosebumps from the top of my head, to my calves because, well, I feel seen in that by what you just said. the thing that keeps me coming back, even when I feel depleted, is I know how to connect with people this.

Charissa

Ah,

Bethany

and I don't have no connection,

Charissa

yes.

Bethany

keep showing up for other people

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

because this is how I connect and, this is a way I have figured out to show up in the world that brings at least some of what I need.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I feel like what you just did was you're like, I'm curious if I draw back the curtain of this strength and this ability to step into another person's story is this what's happening behind the, behind the curtain? It's like, yeah, it.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I mean it really is. There is a reason why inner child healing and reparenting myself is the way that I survive

Charissa

yeah.

Bethany

Through other therapists, through other people who have honestly been trained to go there, People who have shown me like, Oh, this is how I can take care of me.

Charissa

Yeah,

Bethany

That's why my healing rituals, baking freaking bread, like it's just bread, but it's not just,

Charissa

yeah,

Bethany

That's why getting out in nature, that's why like flowers, that's why all of that means so much to me because it's something outside of me that pours into me.

Charissa

Yes. Something that is outside of you that pours into you that exists without you having to white knuckle it into its beauty. You have access to it like anyone else?

Bethany

Yes.

Charissa

What I hear in that is the importance of this specificity of it, you you said this is for you,

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

Sometimes community can make us feel. Not alone. And sometimes being a part of something with others or hearing ourselves reflected is what we need to feel isolation get chipped away at. But also sometimes what we need is to be individually and specifically seen and attended to.

Bethany

Yeah. You've held this incredible space for me and have given me the gift of, of actually feeling seen. For the last however many minutes of this conversation, I actually. That you are also a trauma survivor who has your own story.

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

You showed up for me in a way that was, for me,

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

felt like it didn't have ulterior motives. There's two things happening internally. One, my brain and body are going Okay, I'm ready to talk about somebody else or something else now So that's one piece. And then as I kind of rise up out of the vulnerability, like, okay, I'm not vulnerable. There's a curiosity that comes to me of wait, Carissa, you are a trauma survivor, with a very different story. And so when I talk about my story and the way that I feel, What is that like for you? What comes up for you?

Charissa

Gosh, I got little pools of tears Bethany, when you said that for a moment in the conversation, you forgot that I'm also a trauma survivor I love communication. I have a degree in it. That doesn't mean I'm great at it all the time, but I really am fascinated by it. But even with certain skills it's still so freaking and scary when someone is just honest about their story. Cause there's this moment of like, I don't wanna mess this up,

Bethany

Mm.

Charissa

this is sacred ground and I don't wanna say the wrong thing that makes them feel minimized. I don't wanna say the wrong thing that makes them feel. Pitied, Right? Cuz that's a thing. I don't wanna be like, Oh I can't imagine. And now I'm taking up the emotional space. Like it's so, it's so scary cuz I think I've had people respond to me in ways that make me feel so shitty afterwards that I'm like, God, gosh, I don't wanna do that.

Bethany

Wasn't worth it.

Charissa

Yeah. And so it's so hard to want to make space for someone but then be like, I hope it's the right kinda space I think it's really cool to have the opportunity to both exist in a conversation where are unique and different experiences can be individually seen without it taking anything away from the other person.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

Which takes a lot of intentionality and it takes a lot of, I think. Healing on our individual ends to be able to exist in both spaces. but man, how beautiful when that can exist

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

Did I just toot our own horn? Was I just like, we're like right at this. Is that what just happened?

Bethany

Here like, yes, we are

Charissa

Can you tell? It's my turn to talk about vulnerability things. Oh my gosh. Why is being human? So human

Bethany

It's, it's, it is in.

Charissa

Ooh. Yeah. I hesitate to say I identify so much with what you're describing because there's so much of it that I don't right? we don't have the same experience. this isn't what you said, but just for the sake of brevity, the oscillation between my experience is worse than yours. Oh, well my experience isn't that bad. that is so relatable and yes, it's relatable in this conversation, but it's also relatable and just so many other areas. I think it's really cool that in this conversation we can kind represent both ends of the spectrum in terms of how bad our experience was. A lot of what, kept me from pursuing healing, when I started coming to terms with what happened to me and the impact that it has, when it came to sexual trauma I think I just had this Hollywood narrative where if you're not trafficked or ridiculously and overtly physically harmed and I don't wanna keep going cuz I don't wanna be unnecessarily triggering. But I think in my mind I was like, here I go using the R word, right? This tells you how much it actually impacted me. I still get screamish even saying it, but in my mind, I didn't think that I could own that I was raped. It didn't look as bad as what I thought rape was supposed to be.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

There were enough factors in the whole scenario for me I was drinking and I was dancing with this guy and I wanted to quote, Get outta here. And so there were enough of those elements that reckoning with what actually happened. It was really hard for me to siphon through it all and figure out am I even allowed to be upset by this? am I even allowed to call this what it is?

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

Seems like I walked right into it and I, hear other narratives and other stories, yours included, where it's like you had nothing to do with what happened. And

Bethany

Hmm.

Charissa

that kept me from, first of all, just owning for myself that a hard thing happened, but also pursuing resources to help me

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

There's this invisibility piece where I hear you explaining How invisible you felt in the extremity of your story. And I think I felt really invisible in the lack of extremity in my experience. I will never, ever forget this moment. I came back from Vegas where I had this experience happen to me and I had kind of joked it off in telling some people, class at Carissa, if I just have self-deprecating humor or play it off like no big deal, then we can talk about it without me having to actually reckon with what happened. and I had a friend just straight up and name it and she was like, You were raped. And it was equal parts. So relieving to feel seen but also horrifying to be like, how dare you've exposed me like that? I have a good kid going here where I can just pretend like it didn't happen and then I'll be fine. Which is not how trauma works turns out. there was some women around me that really wanted to make sure that I felt empowered in it all. I mean we're all just kinda like, like what do we do with this? One of the first things was You report it. This will be an empowering thing. On some level I knew I'm reporting this just for. The sake of feeling empowered in the situation. I know that there's nothing that can actually happen with this because I'm at school in Southern California. This happened in Las Vegas. It was a week ago. You know, there were a lot of things. but even with that expectation, the police officer, who was a woman by the way, came to the home that I was living in. I'm sitting on a bench at this wooden table across from the police officer who's sitting at the other side of the bench. My friend is sitting there with me as a show of solidarity, and I proceed to explain my situation and have every single detail poo-pooed away. Like, Oh, okay, so you were drinking. Oh, okay. So you don't even know who it was. Oh, okay. So you're like, Were flirting with him all night. Okay. So like, what were you wearing? You know, just Oh, okay. So you walked back to his room, And the more that that happened, the more it was like, Oh yeah, Carissa, you idiot. Nothing bad happened to you. You're just upset that you crossed a physical line that you didn't want to I've spent so much of my healing journey and I truthfully, still find myself in this place where I have to be like, what happened was a big deal. And when I look at everything that transpired after it and the response that I had to it, gosh, years later, I was having rage blackouts and arguments with my husband because I just shoved it all down. And it was finally like, okay, this thing had an impact on me. I am acting like a version of myself that I just don't even know what to do with. I don't know who this person is. And it was with a therapist, being honest about it all and being like, I obviously don't have permission to feel this. And then them being like, Uh, you obviously do

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

And just like letting an individual specifically speak to my story and say We registered trauma on different levels and this registered as traumatic to you. And let's look at the evidence.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

I think that's why I love writing about and being specific about trauma responses because I think in some ways that felt like a giant flag of evidence, just waving in the air saying What happened to you mattered.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

And your body is showing you, and it's okay to accept that.

Bethany

Mm. How does it feel for you coming back and owning the phrase, What happened to you mattered.

Charissa

Hmm,

Bethany

It was a trauma, like standing in that permission and that truth,

Charissa

hmm.

Bethany

because when I hear you speak, I'm just like, As your friend, the first thing I wanna do is just, Oh my gosh. Of course. I like just that from start to beginning, just validate What was so clear to me when I was hearing you tell your story

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

is you had a turning point in your healing journey where you decided This mattered to me.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

I will name this and I'm gonna choose to respond and to take care of myself to the depth that it mattered to me. I mean, I get goosebumps just saying that Chrissa,

Charissa

hm,

Bethany

you decided that.

Charissa

Yeah, that is absolutely the turning point. Until we can acknowledge for ourselves the impact that our experiences have on. That it doesn't matter what anyone else says. I had people saying all the right things, all the things you would think someone would need to hear to be convinced that like what happened to them mattered.

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

If we can't see for ourselves and acknowledge for ourselves and stand firmly in our experience, regardless of what others say, then the first negative comment will just blow us off course and convince us that we're not entitled to healing.

Bethany

Yeah. Well, there's so much power in what you just said, that we're not entitled to healing. I connect with that phrase in different areas of my life, you know, in certain things that I've experienced, and I'll even gaslight myself,

Charissa

Oh my gosh. Yes.

Bethany

why is this impacting me so much? Like I've been through so much worse? Like, Come on Beth,

Charissa

Yes.

Bethany

you've survived X. Like, why is this such a problem for you? not only do we do that to each other, but we do it to

Charissa

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's interesting that you bring up that piece of ourselves versus others and our own gas lighting yes there were some external interactions like the interaction with the police officer where it was very com very clearly communicated to me that it wasn't a big deal. But I would venture that if we were to give it a percentage, Most of the time it's me, preemptively assuming that people will think that about my story. Whereas most of the time, apart from the one or two one offs,

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

The response has been, Oh my gosh, of course that's a big deal. And even to echo back what you echoed to me earlier, even in this conversation, I know your story and I know that you have been in scenarios where you're like, okay, mine's different. And had a significant impact in a way that I don't understand your, you still create space for my very different story to still have weight

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

and that is healing too. That helps. Take the wind out of the sails of my internal gas lighting

Bethany

Mm.

Charissa

but like we never get a chance for that to be proven to us when we beat ourselves to the punch

Bethany

Yeah. I was just so tracking with you in that when our brains understandably so, are stuck in this validation scale. When that's how we approach our ourselves, that's how we approach other people. And so then everyone's story is a, is a threat. It's a risk

Charissa

Yes.

Bethany

you have the power to make me feel other, or you have the power to make me go, Oh shoot, yours was, yours was up here and mine was down here. But when we have been given the gift and simultaneously made the choice

Charissa

Mm

Bethany

to self validate and to. With our holding our own self-compassion. When we can approach other people and it's like not a scale thing.

Charissa

Yes,

Bethany

Your story's not a threat to mine.

Charissa

yes,

Bethany

I can, there's room, there's room inside of me. Like I don't have to de self in order to have compassion for you.

Charissa

Oh,

Bethany

I can sit here and still in here is like, ugh. I can hold little Bethany and I can hold, I can hold it in a way that's like, this was horrific and it still exists. I don't have to take it away and I can also listen to you

Charissa

Yes.

Bethany

while she is validated and I can say this was horrific. What happened to you?

Charissa

Yeah,

Bethany

there's room and there's space. Because I'm not approaching it. I think you said this yesterday, there's not a scarcity.

Charissa

yeah,

Bethany

and healing

Charissa

yeah.

Bethany

oh, it's so hard. Like even in describing that, I'm like, Oh, I have so much compassion for my past self. Cuz it's like, it's so hard to experience that until finally your brain is like, Here it is.

Charissa

yes. Gosh, you have so beautifully said that, and you have named it so clearly the threat and the scarcity

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

Your healing doesn't take from my healing. There's this infinite pool that we all have permission to tap into, and if you gulp up more than I think you should, it doesn't matter to me that doesn't take any of my portion.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

It's just so clear to me that in the spaces where we feel unseen, invisible, alone, something's wrong with me.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

I'm the only one.

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

Those are such defensive mindsets where if we're already in that state, then any space that someone else is taking it, it feels like a direct threat,

Bethany

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Charissa

we're already in the deficit.

Bethany

So I'm curious here. This conversation, I'm not surprised, has been like so beautifully full I don't know about you, but in this moment I feel really connected to you.

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

I feel seen, I feel honored by your own

Charissa

Mm

Bethany

I wish we could take this incubator of safety

Charissa

mm.

Bethany

and, Oh. Could we just carry this with us everywhere, and could we just hold it like there's this app that's just like, Oh, I don't feel this way all the time. The reality of feeling unseen. Still, it's a attention I hold as, as a survivor. I mean, that's the reality. In relationship, we get these pockets of intimacy and connection, and I have both experienced and believe, they get more frequent and they get more rich. The more that we're able to experience ourselves in these

Charissa

mm

Bethany

and at the same time, this is true for me, I would wait. It, I guess it's true for you. When we step out of this space, out of these podcasting closets and go into our daily life, that old narrative of, there's something wrong with me, I'm the only one who blank. you know, either the get it together or no one sees me, just these old narratives.

Charissa

Mm.

Bethany

It feels even vulnerable to say, but they haven't gone away from me.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

What I wish was true is once you experience being deeply seen and known and cared for, that just is obliterated.

Charissa

right?

Bethany

But it's not that black and white. That's not how I experience it. I would love for us to explore How do we hold this as survivors?

Charissa

What a fantastic opportunity for more shame to come in

Bethany

Mm,

Charissa

It's just heaping shame like, Ugh, we've already learned this lesson. We've already seen what this can be like. We already know that we're seen and held and whatever else. And it can become this flogging of You should know better and you should be different. And hustle up already. Get there faster. Stay there longer. Yeah.

Bethany

like, Oh, well. Did she say that because I was X, or, Well, she didn't really see me X, you know?

Charissa

Yeah. Oh, a thousand percent. And Oh God, I overshare didn't I completely forgetting how beautifully trusted I felt when you shared what you shared. It is just a thousand different ways for us to turn this on ourselves.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

there is a principle that comes with interacting with people who are addicts it has been really helpful cuz sometimes it's like these mindsets aren't necessarily an addiction, but it is something that we're trying to break ourselves out of. And they've become a habitual fixation sometimes, in the mind. I had it explained to me once that when you are watching someone recover from an addiction, What you want to happen is you want there to be a start and stop and in and out. They had a relapse, they're done. But what it actually looks like is if you were to draw a timeline and if you were to have each, relapse, be a loop on that timeline, what happens is you have a relapse and the circle is really big and so it takes a long time and it goes really deep and then comes back up and then you have a short little bit on the timeline and then here comes another relapse. But over time, what you hope to see is that each of those loops gets smaller and further apart.

Bethany

mm.

Charissa

That visual feels helpful for me in combating shame in areas where I wanna make progress. And so this feeling of isolation, this feeling of not being seen or being alone in my experience over time, I want these loops and spirals, of, oh my gosh, it's just me. There's something wrong with me. No one will ever understand. I'm the SC of the earth for thinking this. I want those to get less intense. I want them to take up less time, and I want them to be farther apart.

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

And so as we talk about how to respond, I just want that to be the backdrop for what this actually looks like

Bethany

Mm.

Charissa

so that we can infuse self-compassion and process into this.

Bethany

Yeah. Well, and I love that visual because. When you start to feel yourself going into a loop, instead of the narrative on that being like, Oh, here I go again and it's gonna be the end of the world, and, and putting a time on it. Oh, I'm gonna be thrown off for six months. Instead of all of that fear and, and self-talk, we can even say, Okay, yes, this is where I am in this moment. And also, it doesn't have to be as intense and as long as it has been in the past. That's so empowering because not only does it acknowledge where you are currently, it's not like, Oh, I'm gonna woo myself out of this. Like, don't think these thoughts, Don't think these thoughts, Beth, you've already learned this. You know, it's accepting. It's like, oh, all. I see this path. It's well worn, I know why we go here. I know how we go here. know what it feels like. You know, it's just, it's, it's allowing it to exist. There's some acceptance in that,

Charissa

mm-hmm. Yes. You just named acceptance, which automatically makes me think of grief,

Bethany

Mm.

Charissa

and I think there's like such an important piece of this that in the places where we feel unseen, There is lots to grieve there you kind of spoke to that earlier, there are the things that happened and then there are the things that didn't happen there's just so many layers to grieve. And so I do think in grieving, these wounds, acceptance is a really empowering force for helping us move forward

Bethany

Yeah. I mean, well, grief is definitely a part of it, and the grief in and of itself. I mean, you mentioned the layers, like that's its own layer. The grief in, in and of itself is a process,

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

and you talked about this in, in your story of your friends who are coming around you and this, the friend who named it and how it both felt, Oh, like you, you see me and you're validating this. But there was kind of this like, Oh, how dare you launch me into this grief. I wasn't ready, I wasn't ready to process the grief of that, because in order to name and acknowledge it, that means I have to go there and grieve it. And man, our bodies are so smart about what we're ready for.

Charissa

Yeah. If you were to say Okay, here's one thing. That we can do in response to feeling unseen in our stories and our experiences. What would you say?

Bethany

Mm. As somebody who loves to, protect and fix and activate. My first response is usually what can we do?

Charissa

Mm

Bethany

I think one of the most powerful things in that moment of feeling unseen is to just name what you are feeling in that moment.

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

don't have to know how to fix it. You don't have to know what to do next.

Charissa

Mm

Bethany

don't have to figure out how to get the person across from you who you desperately want to be seen by. You don't have to figure out how to teach them how to see you. There's just an invitation to name, and in that naming, see.

Charissa

yeah.

Bethany

name that I, I feel unseen right now. I feel like nobody gets this.

Charissa

Yeah,

Bethany

feel like the details of my story are like hidden and vulnerable, and I'm not sure what to share and when to share because I don't want it to be unvalidated. I don't want people to respond from their own emotional response.

Charissa

yeah,

Bethany

There's so much freedom in just naming it.

Charissa

yeah, In communication, if you're having a hard conversation, one of the ideas is to have some meta communication around the conversation itself.

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

because there is something so disarming about just being like, I don't wanna have this conversation, or This conversation feels really scary. It's just kind of like,

Bethany

Mm-hmm.

Charissa

That's essentially what you're doing with your internal dialogue saying I feel really unseen. I feel really misunderstood.

Bethany

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Charissa

this is here.

Bethany

I love that you talked about the meta conversation, because there are some moments where, I don't know about you, but it even feels hard to name, I feel unseen. Like that's a big, That's a lot of self awareness. That's a lot of like, like rising up, Mean, so even for the ones listening to this episode, even giving yourself the mental permission to. Uh, there's something hard on this for me, and I think I know what this is around, I'm not sure, but like, just naming where you are in the best way that you can with whatever words make sense to you and letting that be enough.

Charissa

That's beautiful. What beautiful accessible permission that to me doesn't feel too hard to do.

Bethany

Yeah.

Charissa

know? And everything else oftentimes does in these spaces.

Bethany

totally.

Charissa

I love that.

Bethany

Thanks so much for just stepping into this conversation with me, and thank you for holding space for me in a way that very few humans have in my life.

Charissa

Hmm.

Bethany

And not only doing that, but holding space for me and then showing up in your full self right after, the juxtaposition of what I shared

Charissa

Mm.

Bethany

Somehow was additionally validating

Charissa

Mm,

Bethany

to be seen. And then for you to show up in the fullness of.

Charissa

Mm.

Bethany

It just, man, it blows the, the threat out of the water

Charissa

Yeah.

Bethany

You showing up in that way is a very big deal.

Charissa

Mm Yeah. Gosh, a big part of why I felt like I could hold space for you and then also show up with the fullness of my story is because of the countless conversations outside of the podcasting closet where you have done the same and this dance this isn't our first go at dancing with the realities of both of our stories. And that feels important. Pay tribute to at the end of this conversation. And also just as an encouragement that like these conversations don't happen overnight. They build, and when they do it is beautiful, the healing that comes from it.

Bethany

Yeah, yeah. Well said.

Charissa

Hmm. Love you friend.

Bethany

I love you, So just take a moment to notice our breath and let your body take as much or as little as it wants to take, And if you imagine. A center point on your skull, and sometimes I like to take my middle finger and just place it there for a, a physical sensation to go with the imagery. But I like to imagine a tube that goes from the top of my head down through the back of my neck and through my spine, down through my sacrum, and then connects down into the earth I like to picture a vibrant gold and a soft flowing energy coming from the sky, from the heavens down through me and into the ground, Becoming aware of that divine energy, that celestial energy that we have the invitation to tap into as humans, bring your attention back up to the top of your head And slowly starting to scan down your forehead, noticing how your muscles are interacting, the invitation to loosen eyebrows and those muscles that connect to the back of your skull. Moving down to the upper cheekbone, thanking the jaw for all that it holds for us. Noticing the invitation there to release, And scanning down through the shoulders, noticing any sensation, moving down through your chest and middle back, you can follow the line of your spine down. Just imagining this scan being a gentle, energetic, sift, an imitation to release anything that your body. Done holding onto bringing the attention down to your abdomen, belly button, lower back, noticing any sensation, any tightness, any release that wants to happen, and bringing that scan that attention down to hips and pelvic floor. Clearing out the energy in that space. Then inviting breath, a new energy and a fullness of myself into that space. I like to picture the golden tube of energy once more, going from the heavens down through my body, through all the places I have scanned, into the earth. Trusting that we are part, that we are connected, that is our birthright to tap into the divine and natural energy that is all around us.

Charissa

Mm. That was beautiful. Thank you for leading us through that. Breathing deeply. Paying attention to my body. These have all been crucial to my healing And If I'm honest Part of my healing journey has also included learning how to feel comfortable asking for what I would like. So here If you enjoyed this conversation today, please feel free to share it and rate, review, and subscribe wherever it is that you listen. You can find us on Instagram at Bethany underscore fray and at Carissa brim. Or online@neverwouldhaveguessed.com. You can also help sustain the podcast by becoming one of our Patrion subscribers. Find us at patrion.com/never would have guessed podcast.. All of this really does make a gigantic difference for us and helping these conversations. Make their way to others who need them to. Friends. Thank you so much for listening. As you go out into the rest of your day. May you feel empowered to navigate the things others never would've guessed about you. And to make room for others doing the same. We'll see you guys next week