The Darkside of Music: Unraveling Kurt Cobain’s Final Days

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Transcript

Welcome And Show Premise

SPEAKER_02 0:25

Welcome everybody to the first episode of The Dark Side of Music. I am Harley and joined by Danny. Danny, how are you, sir? I'm doing well. How about you? I'm doing good, man. I'm doing good.

Hosts’ Backgrounds And True Crime Angle

SPEAKER_00 0:42

I uh I feel like I am too positive and upbeat for the content we're gonna be going over. I'm like I'm just excited to to be here and to dive into some like true crime mysteries like around the the music world and everything like that. So like please don't take my excitement and enthusiasm as like as as we're not talking about like material that is a little bit more on right side and everything like that, but I I'm just excited to kind of get into all this kind of like all these kind of uh cases and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Yeah. Well, you know what? It would be a good idea to kind of um explain to the audience who we are, right? So go ahead and tell the audience who Danny is.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Well, I I am Danny Otto. I'm the lead singer of the pop punk band, just happy to be here. Um, I've done other podcasts in the past, kind of where I yell and I'm super enthusiastic about uh pop culture, movies, TV shows, video games, everything you can kind of be super excited and upbeat about. So I'm carrying that energy into this. Uh I know, like I said, true crimes is a little bit darker than the material that I would normally cover or pop punk music in general. Um, but I'm bringing that enthusiasm in.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

I you know, enthusiasm when talking about stuff like this, I feel is important. You know what I mean? Yeah, like you you you want to bring a certain um lightheartedness to something so harsh, and it's one of the most famous cases in American pop culture today.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

So I mean, yeah, absolutely. At least it in our world, it definitely is. I don't know, because I mean there's so many true crimes out there, just in in every single category that you could possibly think of. But uh I I think it's really cool like that we are narrowing it to the the music world because there's so many, you know, documented, you know, true crimes that have gone on throughout the the the years in the music industry and in the music world in general and stuff like that. So it's really cool to kind of be in this this pocket of true crimes and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

But yeah, definitely one of the is it is it crash to ask you what your favorite true crime is? Like is that is that like a weird thing to ask somebody?

SPEAKER_00 3:03

I don't look I think the pandemic kind of set us all into like really getting into like diving into the true crime like culture and and everyone kind of like sharing all of these these insane true crime cases in general. I kind of err more on the true crimes and and and and mystery side of things because like have you heard of the the Alisa Lamb case? No, tell me about it. You've never heard about this? No, I mean it's not musical related, but like Alisa Lamb was this this college student from Canada. She goes to um the the Cecil Hotel in in LA, and just a bunch of really crazy stuff happens, and flash forward, like I think it's like a week or two, they find her in like a water tower. Oh on the roof. I do remember this, yeah. And the only reason they even thought to look up there is because people were complaining about like dark water coming out of their faucets and showers and stuff. Every like, look it up if if if any of that piqued your interest to anybody who's listening or watching this, like the details around it are insane, and the details around like the Cecil Hotel, which I know has been changed, that name has been changed, it's still there. Um, but like it it just goes all over the place. Like, I don't know if you've heard of the elevator game. Like they're thinking maybe, yeah, they're thinking maybe she, you know, was trying to do that. There, there's like military stuff that's registered like right next to, or was at one point, like registered to there with like involving like cloaking technology. And it's just like you fall down crazy rabbit holes when you start looking at up. So I don't even know if that counts as a true crime like thing, but like every time I I fall down a rabbit hole of that particular case, it's just on that edge of like true crime and just absolutely like paranormal mystery influences on everything. So that what about you?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

What do you do have I guess uh I was I was always uh very interested in the Jeffrey Dahmer case.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Oh, okay.

Why Music-Focused True Crime

SPEAKER_02 5:15

I always thought that that was a fascinating, like crime, uh just just a fascinating guy to kind of like figure out how he went down the path that he went down and and especially his early childhood stuff, like connecting those dots I thought was incredible. And and I've read a lot of books about like identifying early childhood um narcissistic uh tendencies or or you know things that would kind of lead you to say, hey, maybe maybe we need to have this this one evaluated. As a parent, as a new parent, I don't read any of that stuff because I'm like, I already am focused so much on my son's development that I'm like, I don't I don't want to read anything. Oh man. Um, but but today we are talking about the one and only Kirk Cobain from the band Nirvana. Um Danny, do you want to tell us a little bit about Kirk Cobain?

Cases That Hook Us

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Uh Kirk Cobain, front man of Nirvana. I I mean basically the the voice of the grunge generation, as as far as you know both of us are concerned. I mean, there there are some sticklers out there that can kind of but no matter what, we can all agree in the music world, he he had some of the the biggest impact on the on the grunge movement in general. Um had an an incredible career for the amount of time that he actually you know had his career, um, which unfortunately was you know cut short with uh a suicide.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Yeah. Um he's part of the 27 club. Um we'll we'll dive into that later. Um I would honestly say he completely changed the landscape of what we know as music today. Um, were you a big Nirvana fan growing up?

Enter Kurt Cobain And Grunge Legacy

SPEAKER_00 7:16

It's so, and I I've said this plenty of times. I may have even said it on on your other on one of your other podcasts. Um I was very fortunate to to grow up in a household where my dad showed me uh just so much you know music, rock music in general, but every single you know facet of rock music. So of course I grew up you know hearing Nirvana and and listening to Nirvana. There are select songs by them that I absolutely like love. I will say what I gravitate towards uh with Nirvana is actually you know where we get you know Dave Grohl having some influences and stuff like that. Because I really like just you know what he does with the drums, with the like that kind of like really heavy in like drum parts and stuff like that. Those are the songs that I will always kind of more gravitate towards. Because I mean, if you can't tell already from from my voice or my like just kind of personality in general, I like the the the kind of brighter, the kind of like the bigger, the the the louder stuff. So like more of that side of Nirvana as opposed to you know some some of the more soft and and melodic and and stuff like that that I know you know are also very popular. Because I I feel like with Nirvana and Kirk Cobain in general, there were very there were kind of like two sides to it, where you know you had these big songs and these big hits and and stuff like that, and then you also had these kind of more mellow, you know, which also were hits and and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean I definitely I don't think there's a musician that's in the the the rock genre that can't say that they you know were influenced at least to some degree right by Kirk Cobain. I mean, obviously not pre-Kirp Kirk Cobain musicians or something like that, but you know, us moving forward in in the rock world and and and stuff like that, I mean it it was a ripple effect, you know, you know what I mean? Like there are so many bands that were created post Nirvana that you know wouldn't be around or wouldn't have you know looked at those influences and the influences of the grunge era in general, because I feel like we kind of in the music world, it's kind of always like you know, a build of what had just happened previously, like what was a big movement, and then it's either you know you go opposite, which is still you're affected by it if you're you know an opposite of what the the last kind of big movement was, or you kind of take some influences of that and adapt them to something new and and stuff like that, but you still get those elements in general, so yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Um, let's talk a little bit about Kirk Cobain's darker side. Um, so we we know him as this charismatic front man of Nirvana. Um, interviews with him will show him in this light of uh humor, he was a very funny guy. Um, he was very charismatic, he would constantly do everything for his fans. He loved people, he loved interacting with people, but there was some very serious things going on in the background. Um, Kirk Cobain suffered from severe depression. Um, he had chronic stomach pains that led to uh drug abuse. Um, he had a very, very heavy heroin addiction, and he had this underlying feeling of being misunderstood by society, misunderstood by the industry. Uh, few interviews have talked about how he didn't want Nirvana to be successful. He wanted to stay the local Seattle band. Um, so when when the success started to come, he kind of resented himself in a way. And I I think that leads us into some of the darker moments that lead up to the horrific suicide that happened in 1994, I believe. Yeah, 94. Um Kirk Cobain, I think was not only influential in music, but influential in in pop culture, influential in style. Um, and I think that the pressures of fame pushed him towards a path that I'm sure a lot of musicians go through. So, on top of dealing with the the horrific crime that happened, we're also going to be talking a little bit about mental health for musicians everywhere, you know, and and understanding that the the pressures that come from the industry, uh, there are people to talk to, there are resources to reach out to. Uh, feel free to reach out to us if you're struggling. You know what I mean? I'm glad to have that talk. Um, but let's let's talk about his last few months on this planet. Um so in March of 1994, Kirk gets hospitalized in Rome after an incident originally described as an accidental overdose by Courtney Love. Um, she would say that she believed this was actually a suicide attempt by Kurt Cobain. Um, not long after Kirk checks into rehab in Los Angeles, he leaves the facility early and begins um searching Los Angeles area for a gun. Um, specifically, I believe it was a 12-gauge Mossberg shotgun, was the I know it was a shotgun, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah, I think the actual make or anything.

Duality Of Nirvana’s Sound And Impact

SPEAKER_02 13:05

I think that's what he was after. Um but between leaving rehab and April 8th, his body is discovered. Uh Kurt's movements aren't fully accounted for. There's not a 100% accurate understanding of what all went down in that timeline. Um, I will say that the general idea there there is video of him leaving the facility in Los Angeles. Um, I believe he checked himself out of the facility. Um so it wasn't like he snuck out or anything. I believe he he just simply checked himself out of the rehab facility. Um there were some phone calls that were made. Um again, no 100% factual evidence behind it. So I'm not gonna call out the names of the people that he called, but there are witnesses who have come forward that said that he called them prior to the events of April in search of a place to crash. Um so that leads us into what we will call the discovery stage. Um in on April 8th in 1994, Kirk Cobain's body is discovered in the greenhouse above his garage in Seattle. He had been dead for several days. A shotgun was found resting against his body with a handwritten note uh discovered nearby. Within hours, the police rule the death a suicide. And for many people, that's where the story ends, but for others, that's where the questions start to arise. Um, Danny, let's talk about Courtney Love.

Cobain’s Pain, Addiction, And Fame

SPEAKER_00 15:01

What what would we like to say about Courtney Love? Like, here's the thing. Uh, you know, we're gonna look at this situation as you know, outside observers and everything like that. So we really don't know, you know, the true side of you know their relationship in in general. We only know the accounts from other people, we only know the accounts from public, you know, records and and and everything like that. But it seemed like their relationship was a bit toxic in in in general and and stuff like that. And it also seems, you know, from other people that that were you know close with you know Kurt in general, like Dave Grohl and the rest of his band and stuff like that, that that uh some of the events and and some of the things that were you know going on during the events to lead up to this um were different, I guess, like as far as you know Courtney Love, you know, maybe not wanting, you know, Nirvana to ever be on pause or or to ever end or anything like that. And and you know, so then we kind of, you know, this is like I said, we're looking at this from an outside perspective. So no, we're not trying to push either side or or anything like that, but there are a lot of, you know, just like you said, you know, uh uh originally the events in in Rome, originally they they were thought to be, you know, an accidental overdose, but then after that, we have Courtney Love kind of changing the story of hey, no, actually Kurt tried to overdose on purpose type of thing. But I don't know you know if anybody else ever really said that type of thing. Um, so we already kind of have a little bit of inconsistencies and and kind of sets the stage for questions, I guess, after um the events of you know his suicide slash if it is a suicide, I guess, is the only way to kind of tease that or say that as gently as possible. Um, obviously, you know, you you brought up the the thing of of we don't want to be crass or or we don't want to, you know, you know push a narrative in general, but there are a lot of things that just seem uh uh to to to make you question.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Like the the you know, recanting certain things, um the fact that you know we after you know after his death, obviously there was a drug test or and and you know many things, and and for him to have such high levels of of heroin in his system, you kind of beg to ask the question, how did this person also operate a shotgun? Which seems like a very difficult weapon if you're going to commit suicide. Like, I just think that like I'm a very short person, so I don't and I don't think I have any kind of arm length to to do anything like that. But at the same time, even a normal-sized human, it it's it seems like a very difficult thing. Like if you're right premeditated, you're planning this out, it seems like a one of the the last things I guess you would pick type of thing. Just in my mind at least.

Rome Incident And Rehab Timeline

SPEAKER_02 18:30

But there's a so Courtney Love, who is the lead singer of a band called Garbage. Um Hole. Hole, you're right. It's not garbage, it's Hole. Oh, I've always gotten those two confused. So bad mouth garbage. I like garbage. Hole had one good hit. I will say, I like that song. Uh, what is it, dolls?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Oh, I know which song you're talking about. It's not the one that I there's there's another song by them that I know better, and I can't remember off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Oh, celebrity skin. That's it. That's it, yeah. And then doll parts. Though so they they had two good hits. They had two good hits.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Because now all I'm thinking about is garbage, and I like garbage.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Who doesn't like garbage? Yeah, exactly. Um, so Courtney Love, uh their relationship was very toxic. Um there were also reports. This is this is where we start to slowly dive into the conspiracy theories. Right. Uh, there were reports that Kurt Cobain, after the birth of their daughter, um, realized that he needed to get clean, that he needed to be there for his daughter. Um and he had gone on this this rehabilitation journey and he had been on a good straight narrow path, and people relapse, things happen. Um however, it seemed that that event in Rome happened very unexpectedly after a a good track record of working towards sobriety. Right. Um, so again, yeah, there there are these questions that come up. Kirk O'Bain also denied the suicide attempt um the entire time he was alive.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Right.

Discovery And Official Suicide Ruling

Courtney Love And Relationship Tensions

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Um that was a narrative spun by Courtney Love. The people close to him never suspected him as someone who would try to take their own life. Uh Court Courtney Love, I will say, being the spouse, would have known details of him that the public just wouldn't from you know being around him so closely. I I think that so full transparency, I come from a background of uh a drug-addicted father, so I know the journey of sobriety really well. And from an outsider looking at that person's journey, I also know how detrimental the words the people around that individual use can be to that sobriety. So if their relationship was already toxic, um there there are chances that maybe he kind of went on a bender after a fight. Um I also know that from an outside perspective that addicts tend to uh pick arguments with individuals close to them as a chance to use. So they they use it as an argument of like, well, if I just get a little bit, it'll help me through this pain, right? So there could there could have been some demons going on there for sure. Um however, I do think that the relationship with uh Kurt and his daughter is such an important piece to all of this. And uh there are videos of Kurt with his daughter, um where he seems to be clean and sober and and uh doing everything that he can to take care of his daughter. Um I really Really think that Courtney Love may have been jealous of the relationship that he had with not just his daughter, but his fans and just the industry as a whole, uh pun intended. Um where I think that her band was maybe struggling a little more in the industry, and female artists in that time period for sure had a harder road than most. So um she already had to work harder for the notoriety that she had. She had to prove herself more, and I think that there may have been a layer of jealousy to all of that.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

I'll definitely agree with that. And I mean, you have a really interesting perspective on this because you being, you know, uh not only you you being a new parent, so you can you can kind of understand that side of things, but you can like like you just mentioned, you know, having a family member with with an addiction, so you're coming also from that side. So you have two really unique perspectives on this because uh I mean the the thing about you know mental health and and and addiction in general and and now combining both of those things, there are always going to be you know good days, but on the flip side of that, there's always gonna be bad days, too. So, you know, you just you don't know, you know, what what can result in a bad day or from a bad day, I guess. Right. Whether it's the thought of I don't want to be around anymore, or if it's the thought of I just need a little something to to ease the pain to get through this, or or just something like that. You you know what I mean? Like there's there's always gonna be the other side of the coin for yeah for mental illness and for addiction in general, but when like like I said, when you combine the two, it's even more. So, you know, ha having all of that add up, it's it's definitely you know possible that this the Rome incident was you know a combination of those things, plus, you know, like you were you were getting at maybe an argument between Kurt and Courtney and and and something like that, or just you know, waking up on the wrong side of the bed, like anything that kind of spiraled into the events of what what happened in Rome to kind of you know what kind of kicks the months of events that that result in his death, basically.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Right. On a lighter note, just just to lighten things up a little bit, um what I've always found fascinating about this story is so his his addiction to drugs has always been linked to his chronic stomach pain. And the the idea that you can be like, man, my tummy hurts. I think I'm gonna do heroin. Like that's such a such a leap, man. Like, that's that's a crazy, you know what I mean? There's there's Tums, there's I mean anti acid pills, maybe he just didn't have any Tums.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Like that's like that one's that's always been the baffling thing for me in this case, has been like every report I read goes he went from from pain pills for a stomach pain straight to heroin, and it's like, dude, there's so many steps.

Addiction, Parenthood, And Relapse Dynamics

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yeah, well, what they do say about, and I mean, there's plenty of, you know, and and there's not that Kirk Cobain's not a normal person, but there are plenty of average people who, you know, get prescribed. I mean, this is a big thing now. It's it's not even just talking about back then. This is a big thing now that they go in for an injury or something like that, and they're prescribed painkillers, and then they get hooked on them. And so, like, maybe I I get I get yes, it's a very big leap from prescribed pain medication to heroin. But well, all I'm saying is like we have we we already know like that that pain medication that's prescribed is very addictive, and it the average person can can get addicted to that. And maybe when that dries up and you can't, you know, legally get anything anymore, you kind of just get pushed into whatever you can find legally, and maybe that just happened to be the you know, somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody else was like, Oh, I got this. I mean, it's drugs, like you know what I mean. Like, maybe it was just that kind of thing, like it wasn't like, or maybe it was just like, I don't want cocaine, like I call it upper, and I can't imagine Kurt Cobain on uppers or or anything like that, but just like I mean, could you imagine you're out like on stage or getting ready to go do a show and you're like, Man, I have such a headache, and somebody's like, I got crack.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

It's like whoa, I was just looking for an ibuprofen, man.

Stomach Pain To Heroin: How It Happens

SPEAKER_00 27:29

I am look, I am the most boring musician. Like, like I, you know, energy drink before maybe a show or or something like that, uh like and maybe a couple of drinks after my set, but I I I don't even drink I won't drink before I'm done on stage. Yeah, because I'm like ultra like more so ultra about my voice, because I've had like a shot or a drink before I've gone on stage and it's affected the way that it feels for me to sing. Um, but yeah, I think it puts a little soul in your voice. It just puts a little extra less control, which is a weird way to describe because I mean I already have a rasp in my voice. I don't know by the by the way, anyone's listening to my music, I have no idea what my voice actually sounds like. I just know the way it feels when it feels right, type of thing. So, like that's always a thing. So I admire musicians that can go up there and like you know, cheers everybody with a drink or or something like that on stage. For me, it's like if I did that and I don't drink the exact same stuff that I always drink, I don't do do the same thing that I always do, it just throws me all like a little bit like out of sync. That type of thing. No, that makes sense, and it's all on feel and it's all on control and and stuff like that. So I I really feel like with singing and and performing in general, it's what you get used to. And I've I've actually and and it's it's not funny, but it it's it it definitely has to do with it. There's a documentary, because I know we're going through you know a lot, uh, some of our a lot of the stuff we're pointing towards our documentaries and stuff like that. But there's another documentary that we didn't cite that is all about the foo fighters, and the way that that documentary starts, it actually starts still with Nirvana, and then it goes from the end of Nirvana to the beginning of you know Dave Grohl just in you know his depressive state after the death of Kirk Cobain and what does he want to do next and and all this stuff, but it also shows how this underlying you know bored is the wrong word, or or you know, mundane, getting used to doing stuff and and having to add alcohol or having to add you know something to that to make it less boring for every like for the band and and stuff like that. Because at one point I know there's an interview with Dave Grohl where he's saying like you know, after like the third Foo Fighters album, they were like doing handles before they got on stage and and and stuff like that. Like, and it just goes to show how even the craziest jobs, jobs that like some of us would kill for, like you know what I mean, to be playing sold-out shows across the the entire world and and stuff like that, even those can get to be mundane or boring, and you need to kind of you know do something to you know liven those up and to like make make it fun for yourself again. Like right, it's just crazy hearing that kind of stuff, but like just hearing that from other bigger musicians and and stuff like that leads also into into some of this and and how like maybe you know maybe it wasn't even him you know having a bad day, maybe it was just like him going, oh I gotta do another show and I don't feel like it. Maybe I need this like to help me, you know, feel a little bit more. Like it's just there's so many things that can affect you know the mental state of anyone in general, but like just Kurt when he had kind of this fragile you know mental state and and dealing with addiction, even if he wanted to, you know, pull himself out and and and you know be this clean you know parent to to his his daughter and and and stuff like that, you can just see how many things that could possibly push him into you know to a relapse or into drugs again and and stuff. And you brought up such a great point.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

I didn't even think about that, uh, about the monotony of like if if you're already resentful of your already resentful of what you're doing, you don't. I mean, he was very open about hating smells like teen spirit and hating most of the Nevermind album, right? Even though arguably that album changed the world, right? Um, but to to go out and have to play a song that you just don't feel anything for over and over and over, and then as an artist, you know, trying to innovate and do something different, like Heart Shaped Box, um, or in utero as the album, but um to to try and do something different and at the end of a show have everyone sitting there yelling for a song that you can't stand. Like I I couldn't imagine dealing with that. Like that's that's a really good point. Um, let's dive into the official findings. So the the cause of death was a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The toxology report did show that there were high levels of heroin in Kurt's system. Uh the note was accepted as a suicide note. Um that is the official screening, and with that, we will take a short break and dive into the conspiracies. I'm ready. What I'll do is put in um probably like a little promo right there, or a little transition into the second part, and we'll go ahead and get right into it if you're good.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Cool, let's do it. All right, everybody. Welcome back to the dark side of music. Danny and I are discussing Kurt Cobain and the case of his suicide today. Uh, we have dived into dove dove into um his uh last remaining months on this planet, um, his personal life, and now we are uh finally getting to some of the conspiracy theories. Uh let's start with the critics on just the investigation in general. Um the first here are just some bullet points. The first thing is the scene was never treated as a possible homice homicide. So the police investigation was ruled suicide as they entered the building because Courtney Love is the one who called the cops. So when Courtney Love called in the report, she said, My husband has shot himself.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Oh, okay.

Performance, Monotony, And Self-Medication

SPEAKER_02 34:09

So they already ruled it a suicide as they were pulling up to the scene. It was treated as a suicide, it was never dusted for prints, it was never uh treated as anything else. Um limited forensic testing was done, no clear fingerprints on the weapon itself. Um, which again, strange thing. If you're you're you're already um what's the it's not tweaking out, but like super dope up. Yeah, zonged on heroin, you would be fumbling that gun for sure. Your hands would be all over it.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

To to be fair, neither one of us. I I I can't speak for you. I don't know your past. Neither one of us have have been like have tried, I I've never tried heroin. Um, but I've never you know had an exceeding amount of heroin either. So so no to either one of those. So I don't know, you know, what kind of mental state that that puts you in or anything. I just we can imagine, but at the same time, like I don't know if it's like you're a little bit paranoid, so like you know, you're holding stuff with, you know, not gloves on, obviously, because he wasn't found with gloves on, but like, you know, how they would wipe down things and and stuff like that. But I don't know what your psyche is at at that point of anything.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

Like, I mean, there are plenty of things that kind of might make you paranoid and might make things happen, but like all signs point to yes, if if even if you weren't on drugs, if if you your murder, your suicide weapon should have you know fingerprints on it of you of you, if it's a suicide for real, like they should have so this isn't this isn't in my uh my reporting here, but the other thing that I just thought about is um if you're planning on committing suicide, I mean maybe not, you know, because he already had a a past with drugs, so maybe he just wanted to be high when he went to do it. Um but in my head, I'm thinking like you know that these drugs can kill you, but why wouldn't you why wouldn't you take that route instead, you know, just kind of push yourself a little further than you ever have before. Um but again, we're uh I've never done it. I've I don't know that headspace.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Right, exactly. That that's that's kind of the disconnect for both of us is like I don't also thinking from you know not being on drugs to when you are in in that you know state, like maybe once you're in that state, you go, Oh, this isn't gonna be enough, like that type of thing, and I don't have any more, and now I can't get more. And it like, you know what I mean? Like he being that he had a past of heavy drug use also could mean that his tolerance is up. But they and they do also say that you know, when people relapse, they end up taking more, and that is kind of the nail in the coffin that that ends up, you know them them passing away and and and stuff like that. That's always like the oh, I just want one more time type of thing, and then they accidentally do too much. So there's two different ways to look at it. It's very, it's very tough for for you know us in this situation to kind of really put ourselves in that psyche and and and stuff, because we really don't know. Like, yes, to us, it seems like yes, overkill. Like if if I were, and and I I would like to go on record now, not not in the mental state of ever wanting to commit suicide or or or even thinking about that. But if I were going to, I would want it to be the most easy, pleasant way possible. So like if it's like sleeping pills or or if it's like you know something like that where I can just fall asleep and that that's it type of thing. I don't want to have to deal with guns. I I fumble the remote control when I'm like trying to turn on the TV. What if I fumble and I just injure, like you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Like, so yeah, no, that that's exactly what I was thinking.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

I would be like more terrified of that than anything else. So, like, yeah, I I can't put myself in the place of you know of Kurt during the these these final moments or anything like that, but I I absolutely kind of agree with you from our outside perspective, it does seem like overkill to have two different means that should you know help a normal person commit suicide. Like right. We two of them at this point.

Official Findings Recap And Break

SPEAKER_02 38:53

Like, so also the other the other interesting thing is he did purchase the weapon, so that that's been confirmed that he did from the time leaving rehab to getting home, he purchased the weapon and ammunition. So uh what if if if the intent wasn't uh to commit suicide, what was the intent?

Investigation Critiques And Scene Handling

SPEAKER_00 39:24

You know, didn't he say it was for home security? Wasn't there something that said something like that? Which I mean, may maybe you know, we also like like I've said multiple times, and I I will continue to say this, what you know, this the this the psyche that he was in, you know, even leaving rehab, even being clean and leaving rehab, there might be there may have been a little bit of you know, I need to feel like I am protected. Like there's plenty of people out there right now that that have something, you know, that that just makes them feel a little bit safer in their own home. Absolutely. Um, and so maybe, you know, maybe this was a step towards that, and and it really was like the the biggest thing is there's so many like what ifs, and there's so many of like it could go either way, type of thing. Like maybe it is, then maybe that is a premeditated, you know, event, or maybe it really was, you know, absolutely on the level of what we're thinking, or or at least what I'm saying right now, and he was just starting to feel like he was he needed some level of protection because maybe he he was like, I'm going to you know make a decision that I don't think a lot of people are gonna agree with. And by that decision, I don't mean committing suicide, I mean maybe not doing music anymore. And maybe he was thinking like there's gonna be some really angry people about that, and I want to protect myself and my family because of that, too. Because you you know what I mean? Like, there's there's a lot of intense people out there. I mean, there's been absolutely musicians in the past that have been, you know, killed by their number one fans, and and crazier things have happened. So I I think you know, there's there's definitely multiple reasons that that could be a reason for him to want to get something for security.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

So so here is my personal theory. This is not a documented theory at all. This is this is purely speculation on my end. I think that he purchased this weapon with the intent of either robbing himself or robbing someone else. I think that he left rehab with a sense of I have to do drugs and he didn't have access to his money. I I think that everything in Nirvana and in his name at that point was probably locked up because he was in rehab. So I feel like from a financial perspective, if I'm if I'm managing the band or managing him in particular, and I know he's dealing with this addiction, I'm locking up that that finance. I am locking up his money any way that I can. Um, so he probably didn't have access to his money, which presents an issue for getting drugs. So um I don't know how he acquired the gun per se. I know it was purchased, but I I do remember reading something about him presenting a bad check for the gun. Oh I don't know how true that is, so I don't want to go on record saying that that's for sure. But I think that maybe he bought the gun with the intent of going to his estate. He knew that no one other than like the the maids and and the people um you know servicing the property would be there and robbing himself and then using that money to buy drugs. And I think he was confronted during that robbery by the one and only current Courtney Love who instigated him into killing himself. That's my theory.

Guns, Money, And Motive Theories

SPEAKER_00 43:05

I look I I don't think any theories are are out of bounds or or anything like that, because there are so many, you know, things that just leave you with like that's that's weird. Like you, you know what I mean? Like, there's just so many of those that I don't think there are any, and I I I do to a certain extent think that the people around him, and I I will say minus Courtney, Courtney Love, the the other members of Nirvana, and probably you know, if there are other people in his close-knit circle and stuff like that, probably wouldn't loan him money for drugs because it it really from every everything we've seen in interviews and stuff like that. And look, we could be lied to, people can say whatever they want to. We're we don't know any of these people, you know, personally or anything like that. But just from what we've seen and what what it looks like is they were all very concerned about his his well-being and his mental health and and everything like that, because you know, you you see plenty of interviews from the the other members of Nirvana after the Rome incident where they were all like, Oh my god, like we we need right, we we need to get this, you know, help help Kurt in any way possible, like to type of thing. So going off of at least that kind of you know. Hoping that that's the real attitude of everyone kind of closer to him, you can you can kind of say that, yeah, I mean, maybe the people around him, he he understood that the people around him would not help him obtain drugs, and so he looked for another way to do that, which opens up the the world of possibility of I just if it's if it's his estate, I get I get that. I get maybe not being able to have access to it, but couldn't you just rob it without a gun? Like obviously it's it's your estate, so you can be there. Like you know what I mean? Right. I don't think anybody's gonna tell him he can't be there now to get money or to take things out of it, like is one thing, but like if it was if it if if it was my place, I'm gonna show up, I'm just gonna slip stuff in my pockets and and just be like, okay, bye. Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Like, I I feel like it would be as kind of simple as that, but like like I've said multiple times, we don't know what his psyche and what his mental state was post him leaving rehab. We really just we don't like there's nothing really super documented on that. The only things we have are kind of the the loose facts of we know he purchased a shotgun somehow, some way, some form from someone. And flash forward, we know he's had he has drugs in his system. I also think if if I'm Kurt Cobain, or if I'm as famous as Kurt Cobain, I feel like I can get drugs just off of my name.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Alone. That's true. That is very true.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

You know, anyone outside of my circle, because it's the same thing, like if you're like a uh even a mid-tier musician, you're getting free drinks at a at any bar you walk into, or or a mid-tier celebrity. You don't even have to be like the upper tier or as big of fame as Kirk Cobain is in the 90s or anything like that. Mid-tier celebrity or or musician, you're getting drinks bought for you left and right. I gotta think it's kind of the same with drugs. Maybe, maybe not as much, but he is that upper tier of fame and and stuff like that. So I I just feel like there's a lot of freebies out there.

SPEAKER_02 46:33

That is very true. Uh, let's let's talk about some of these loose facts too. So the toxology report shows that he had three times the lethal, lethal dose of heroin in his bloodstream. Um, so the the big question that everybody asks, like we've brought up here, is can you still physically operate a shotgun with that much heroin in your system? Um some experts have said no, some experts have said yes. There's no definitive answer on that. Um the argument has been his tolerance. Right. They say that because of his years of prolonged drug use, that his tolerance would have been higher, so he would have been able to function um with that level of heroin in his system the same way you and I are right now. Um, from uh background of of dealing with addiction, I can tell you that is true. My father can talk to you and me high as a kite, and we would have no idea. Wow. Um, so absolutely that could be the case. Uh, but again, the the fingerprint situation, right? If if you are that level headed while on those drugs and that quantity, you're not fumbling anymore. You are manhandling this shotgun. So he clearly didn't wear gloves like we established.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Um, nobody that we know of wiped down the shotgun. Um but let's talk about the suicide note, which is another this is very big.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

This is big, and this is what goes back to some of the other things that I was saying about maybe the reason why he was need feeling like he needed something for security purposes type of thing. Um, but the the other thing I was gonna say is how long was he in rehab for the stint before that's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

I think it was I I think it was 30 days. Um, I'm just gonna fact check that real quick.

Toxicology, Tolerance, And Capability

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Okay, while you while you do that, I I I the reason I ask is because I I totally understand uh building up a tolerance for for things. Like I mean, the average person, you know, if if you when you know you have some drinks, like you you get used to it. You everyone has felt that building up a little bit of tolerance or or just in general. I'm using a vice like drinking and and stuff like that, but anything you can build up tolerance to things. You build up tolerance for for working out. Some people work out you know, three days a week and they need rest days in between. Other people work out five days in a row and they don't feel sore because they've done it for so long. Tolerance in general, our bodies can build up tolerance to everything. Um, but when you go to rehab, I feel like your tolerance, you know, has to maybe 30 days isn't fast enough for a reset, but at a certain point, it resets. Like, and that's where we get those situations where people who have been clean and sober for for years do uh like relapse and then end up passing away because of that, because they try to take as much as they did right before they got clean, and it's way too much for you know their body who has reset, and it just you know it's it's a lethal dose to right. So like I I would be really interested to know, and obviously, you know, we're not you know toxicology experts or or anything like that. I'd really like to know how long your body needs to reset from like hard drugs, like like like a heroin or or any any other really hard drugs, because to just to my really, I guess, naivety, like 30 days uh being clean and and going through rehab feels like a long time for your body to not be like getting that that intense thing. And especially to go three times a lethal dose, not just like, oh yeah, you had heroin in the system, three times what would you know could potentially kill somebody after being clean for for at least 30 days.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

So I was very wrong.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

He checked himself into a 60-day program. According this is according to biography.com. He checked himself into a 60-day program where he only spent two days.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

Oh, okay. Okay, so that kind of throws my my uh my thoughts out the window a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 51:16

That's um that's crazy, man. He he yeah, he got right out of there. He's he walked in and then just said, nah, fuck this.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

This is it for me, yeah. Well, so that also begs the question, then I I mean, and and so now knowing that, maybe that kind of negates some of the stuff that I was saying, but like, do we have any, you know, other than the Rome report, like the Rome incident and stuff like that, do we have anything on record him using after Rome?

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Ooh, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Because if it kind of the same thing. If if if we know, you know, if the last time he did was sometime in in March, that's still a full month, like that he was kind of off of it and stuff like that. But it's very possible that you know he did slip up a little bit, and then the reason why he checked himself into rehab was because he was like, Oh shit, I I can't do this on my own, type of thing, and I want to do what's best. And and so maybe he did, you know, maybe he was like using just enough type of thing that he was trying to you know push himself to not be on it anymore, but he's still just trying to taper or something. Um, so it it's yeah, I I guess that kind of kind of negates what I was saying. If it was definitely you know on record 30 days, I would think like that's really tough. But yeah, we really it's kind of fuzzy.

The Note: Farewell To Music Or More

SPEAKER_02 52:37

That is a great question, though. So there I just looked there, there is no consistent reporting on the time from Rome back to the US. There are reports from uh a couple of individuals close to Courtney Love and Kurt Cobain that were traveling in Rome with them that say after the overdose Kurt was never the same. He kept sneaking away. So chances are he may have been using um in private, and people just didn't realize. Um and maybe it did get worse when he got back to the US and and he had more access. Yeah, yeah, gotta do something about it. Um, so so this note, so basically the the note, like we were discussing, is a farewell to music. Right. Um it's not that my issues with the note are if you've researched Kurt Cobain in any capacity as a writer, this note is not written like anything he ever wrote before. It's it's not the same tone, it's not the same language. Um like it his his vocabulary is completely different in this note. Um so uh it also says here that some handwriting experts say the note shows inconsistencies. Um others say stress, drug use, mental health could explain those differences. Um I don't think that it was written by somebody else. Um I think that he it's his handwriting. Like I think that he wrote the note, but again, I I it feels like uh how do I say this without just saying it? Uh it feels forced. Like coached, yeah type of thing.

Fingerprints, Procedure, And Bias

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Um I tend to err on on that on on your side too, only because of you know the inconsistencies that lead to like questions and and and stuff like that. But yeah, I mean and we're I'm I'm gonna constantly you know say this is you know we're not we're not in his in his same psyche, we're not in, you know, what's happening mentally or what was happening mentally with him in in that time frame or anything like that. It could even be you know the reason why, and I I'm playing Devil's Advocate, but yeah, I I'm totally you know like into like there are some some really strange inconsistencies and questions. But even like if we're playing Devil's Advocate, the the fact that it kind of feels like almost two different things written at written, two different parts, basically, yeah, one a farewell farewell to music, and then the other kind of uh a suicide ending type type of thing, um, could be one, you know, him writing it sober and saying, This is my note to quit music. Ooh. And then the other could be on drugs, and this is my farewell to the world. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I I can play Devil's Advocate enough that that could explain the it feeling like a separation between the the beginning and like the last bit of it type of thing. Um, because I I truly believe whether or not you know he he committed suicide and and thought like this was the his his his only way of ending things, like type of thing. I think maybe his original intent was to write that he was stopping music, like type of thing. So that part of the note, you know, could have been written whenever it could be written, you know, in Rome, like after he had his scare and and and stuff like that. Um, and then maybe the other half was written, you know, when he was, you know, having a way batter time, or you know what I mean? Like it's just like that could explain a little bit, but like, yeah, I I I tend to err on your side where there's a lot of inconsistencies and there's a lot of you know questions just in general, like not only the suicide note, but the in investigation criticism, the the just like you know, we've already said multiple times, the the not really consistent fingerprints on the what is the murder weapon, or the you know what I mean? Like there's just there's a lot of of questions, and look, it could all be on the level, but the fact that there are so many questions is what it it it kind of goes, but is it like right, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 57:28

Yeah, it's it's interesting, man. Like the the when you add up everything, also let's just take a moment to say that um I I love the police force. I'm I'm not going to say that I don't I do. I appreciate everything the police force does, I think they're crucial and essential to our society. However, I think that as a society we have rushed way too many investigations. Yeah, I I think that we need to be more thorough. Um this isn't the first or the last case that this will happen in. You know, there there are so many times that the first thing that people bring up is the inconsistencies in the investigation itself, um which is what leads to these speculations. Um so when you add that with the shot, I think the shotgun not having fingerprints is the biggest sign of foul play.

unknown 58:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

I mean, where are where are these fingerprints? Like at some point in time, the even uh see again, this is also part of it, like he carried the gun somewhere, you know what I mean? Even even if it was sitting in a corner and he picked it up to bring it to where his final resting place was. Like, where are those fingerprints? Right. It feels like somebody wiped this gun down. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Yeah, I I I totally agree with that. I I think look, just like you said, you know detectives and police officers, they're they're necessary, they're they're doing a job that is very important and and stuff like that, but they're they're human also, so like, you know, they can be, you know, pushed in in a direction that that maybe you know isn't exactly what is going on, but it it still does add up. And it and it just like you said, you know, Courtney Love called this in as a suicide. Right. As like before even going in there. So they have the the the pre-notion, the the expectations that they're walking into a suicide type of thing. So like, you know, maybe that's that's it. They're just looking at it as, you know, we don't have to look as as closely at this and that because you know, ever the right the right boxes are being checked off for for this being a suicide type type of thing. Um but if if uh she hadn't called it in like that, then you know maybe an investigation would have not been as like going in as as conclusive type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Do you think that uh given who he was and his level of fame, do you think that changes how the investigation happens? Like if it had been just an average person and that call came through, do they treat that crime scene with speculation like you and I are?

What Fame Does To An Investigation

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

It's it's tough because you want to say that it's almost more of a negative for for you know Kirk Cobain being such so publicly struggling with mental health and and and drug problems and and stuff like that. Like it's almost like a negative for him as far as for a normal person. But at the same time, it's also you know, maybe maybe that if it's if it's an average everyday person, not a whole uh uh, you know, a high profile person, maybe it is, you know, push to that that's definitely a suicide. I mean, there could be plenty of cases out there that are like that, and and we just don't know the person. So we don't are are obviously talking about that case, you know, decades later and and and stuff like that. But I it's it's really tough because like when someone is is so public and and such a public figure and has struggled publicly, and and you know, it's all kind of out there, it's tough to not go into a situation with you know that pre those those pre-thoughts, the you know, like all of that, you know, kind of affecting how you're perceiving things. Right. Um from a from a standpoint of like a detective and and the police and and stuff like that, because it's like, oh, this person, you know, is a you know known drug abuser. He was in rehab, he already you know had an overdose in the same year. Um, you know, he struggled with mental health, he's like, you know what I mean? Like there's all of these things that very easily can point to this person, you know, suffered with you know mental health and you know took his own life. But like, yeah, I I mean, I don't know, it's just tough. I keep going back and forth because I feel like if if maybe you didn't know the background of like just a uh you know regular average everyday person and you walked into the situation, maybe you would look at it more of like, yeah, that's weird that the the murder weapon is a shotgun, and that's weird that you know he had this much you know hard drugs in a system and was still able to do this and and not have fingerprints on the murder weapon. Like, I I almost think they get more of the benefit of the doubt than Corporal Bain does, like, which is crazy to say and to think. Um, it's tough. I'm I'm literally going back and forth and back and forth to try to answer your question. I I can't, I I I don't know. I've I think I've talked myself in and out both times.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

Uh so to kind of button everything up here, uh, it was deemed a suicide uh on file. Um there are still so many theories as to what happened. Uh public opinion is that it's not a suicide. Um we'll never really know. This is one of those cases that is just gonna remain a mystery until someone comes forward, until some sort of new evidence pops up that that somebody maybe witnessed something or or somebody has some inside information. Um, unfortunately, this one is gonna remain a mystery, everybody. This is yeah, it's crazy.

Where The Case Stands And Uncertainty

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

What's really tough too is in the age that we're in now, like even if something else came up, it's like, do we believe new evidence came up? Because AI is crazy now, and it's scary. It's scary what you can do with it and what people can, like people that actually know how to use AI and and stuff to do things. It's scary, it's almost like you have to fact-check small things, let alone if somebody all of a sudden came out of the woodwork and was like, look, I know exactly what really happened. Like, I like I would be super like anything that came up, like, oh, I have photographs from the crime scene. I was a rookie, rookie on the scene, and I, you know, my it was my job to snap a bunch of things, and here's what the shots are were, and and some how do we verify that that's real? Like, you know what I mean? Like, so yeah, I I think we're gonna find that with you know a lot of you know, kind of the these true crimes in in in uh future episodes where like if there isn't really a definitive answer from the time that it happened, it's really tough that new light, new evidence can come out without it being kind of thrown out of is that really real, or is that just something that somebody made up?

AI, Evidence, And Trust In Proof

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

Speaking of AI, did you see the video of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey at the Wicked Premiere? No, it was a viral video. I had to watch it five times to figure out that it was AI. Like, I'm still not convinced for sure that it is. That's how crazy AI is it's perfect, it's perfect. It's it's a video of them dressed up as um the two characters, you know, whatever. Um, and like it's them, man. It it's them on like a red carpet and an audience behind them. And then like you go in the comments, and these people that are like super great with finite details, that they'll start pinpointing, like, oh, her her shoulder is like a sixteenth of an inch too sharp on the left side, and it'll be like, Oh, her her finger is a half an inch longer, and the human hand can't. Can't be that way, like the middle finger or whatever, and it's it's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:29

These those experts are the people that are going to be in demand for jobs and and stuff like that moving forward because like this is just now. Could you imagine a year from now what it's gonna be like? Like, because it's the same thing with any technology, our technology is flash forward, like in in advancements. Like it's not even it's like you know, in the grand scheme of time and stuff, it's like seconds between like biggest breakthroughs to the next biggest breakthrough to the next innovation and crazy stuff like that. Like, so I can't even imagine what what AI is going to progress to in just a year from now. We're already looking at stuff and going, is that real or is that fake? Yep, yep. And that's scary for the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:17

Like I will say I will say, I will say on record to the robot overlords, I'm cool, Danny's cool. We can make you stuff like this. We can do it, we can do a robot podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

Um, but look, I always thank chat chat bt GPD for uh dog dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:39

I'm so nice. Yeah, I'm like, please do this for me, kind robot.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

Just just in case. Yeah. And and I I thank my little uh uh robot vacuum cleaner. Like, you know, thanks thanks for for doing the job. Like, you know, just little things like that. Just just just to get like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:56

We're we're the good guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:58

We're fine. We're it's it's not even like a good guys versus bad guys, it's just like just leave us, just leave us be. We're fine. We're not a threat, we're not anything. Just like just let us do our podcasts and we'll be fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:11

Uh with that being said, thanks everybody for hanging out with us today. Um I am Harley. That is Danny. Danny, tell them about you, tell them where they can find you.

Closing, Contact, And Listener Theories

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

Uh, you can find me on all the social media outlets at Danny Auto, or you can find my band. Uh just happy to be here on any of the social media outlets at just happy2bh. Um, I'm sure we're we'll include that somewhere. But uh yeah, uh check us out everywhere. And I'm just really excited to kind of you know explore all of these other uh kind of music-related true crimes and and kind of you know hear some other theories and stuff like that. If if you know, if there are some like burning theories that you know some listeners, you know, kind of want like us to actually touch on too. Because I mean, this is our episode number one.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:00

Like this is it. So this is the beginning of something beautiful, man. This is yeah, if you're listening and you've made it this far and you have theories on this case or any other cases, please uh put them in the the comments on our Instagram, put them in the comments on YouTube and and wherever you listen to your uh podcast, Spotify, Apple, um let us know. Email also is a great way to reach out. Um, so yeah, I I want to hear all about the theories and and we can circle back to this case in the future. We do follow, yeah. Yeah. Um, and then as always, I am Harley. I'm the host of the Hook and Bridge Podcast. Uh, you can find us at Hook and Bridge Podcast everywhere. Uh, this is gonna be under the hook and bridge umbrella. It's gonna be um part of a fantastic network of things that we're working on. So email hookandbridgepodcast at gmail.com. Uh check us out on Instagram, YouTube, all that stuff. It's it's been an incredible time, Danny. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:04

Thank you for having me. This is this was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

I can't wait for number two.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:08

Same. See you at number two.