103 | From Pharmacy To Functional: Rethinking Men’s Health (with Rob)

If pain is a portal, what’s on the other side? We invited functional pharmacist and men’s health coach Rob Kress to help us challenge the default settings of modern care...more meds, more noise, less self. Rob shares how he moved from conventional pharmacy to a practice that blends functional medicine, clinical nutrition, and mind‑body work, and why the real turning point for so many men is a regulated nervous system and the courage to tell the truth.

We dig into the moments most men avoid. The numbness that follows chronic stress, the swing between agitation and apathy, and the quiet stories they keep buried deep. Rob offers simple, practical resets like two minutes to breathe before a hard talk, a short burst of movement to discharge stress, and five minutes of daily silence to build safety and presence. From there, we unpack testosterone: when TRT helps, when it masks a deeper issue, and how thyroid, adrenals, sleep, alcohol, and cannabis shape libido and drive more than most realize.

Our conversation gets real about America’s medication reflex. SSRIs and benzos can bring relief, but they often mute feeling and complicate long‑term healing. Rob shares how to taper thoughtfully with breathwork, body‑based therapy, a good team and a plan.

We also explore autism through a systems lens. Acetaminophen’s impact on glutathione, the difference between folic acid and folate, the promise of folinic acid for speech in some kids, and how dairy may elevate folate receptor autoantibodies. It’s not about single causes. It’s about looking at every angle.

We close with agency. Interview your doctors, curate a care team, and choose tools that align with your values. The path to health and healing is meant to be co‑creative. Show up for the meaningful work, focus on the what, and release the need to control the timeline. If this conversation recharged your curiosity, share it with a friend, leave a review, and subscribe. And check out our Patreon so you never miss an episode.

https://www.patreon.com/c/seeyouontheotherside

Connect with Rob here:

www.instagram.com/robkressfrx?

https://linktr.ee/robkressfrx

https://www.functionalpharmacy.com/contact-rob

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:31

All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of See You on the Other Side. We are ecstatic for this interview. Today we have Rob Cress and his dog Obi with us. Hi, Rob. Hi, Obi.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Hello.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Can you give a, you would do it better than I would. Can you give a little introduction of yourself and your background?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Sure. So I guess you could say classically trained as a pharmacist. I've never really been a pharmacist for pharmacist's sake, right? I mean, I kind of got into the profession because you can have a job and you can travel anywhere, which I've been able to live around the country using that, which has been really nice. So um, but I've never really had an interest just in conventional pharmacy, right? I was always kind of back in the 90s, I did my first East-West herb course and stuff like that, which kind of increased through mind-body, and that was one of my biggest things. Uh, big fan of the work of Dr. John Sarno. Um, so, and I had my own personal story with lower back issues, and it was completely a psychosomatic response, but I was able to experience what everyone goes through. And I think we got to recognize that with almost every pain, malady, there's an emotional and mental element that's involved. So big core to my teachings and trainings. So fast forward over the years, I, you know, worked some pharmacy and um I've been for about 12 years now, I've been training pharmacists through continuing education on functional medicine. So then I got into functional medicine through clinical nutrition, and then I had my own compound in nutritional pharmacy for a number of years, uh, which then I sold. And then uh kind of got on the path just interweaving functional and mind-body medicine together. So then about seven years ago, uh came into practice with my partner now, and we have a um a functional medicine practice out of Owensboro, Kentucky. Uh, she runs the woman's side, I run the men's side. Her name's Kay Corpus. And so we do that. And at the same time, I also have a separate practice or business called functional pharmacy, where I train, coach, help basically pharmacists implement natural functional medicine, getting into the mind-body medicine and all that stuff. So, long story short, that's what I do.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

So we're gonna have to have K on it at some point. Yeah, we are.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:52

I don't think we talk about men stuff enough. And so that's why I get I get really excited when we have um someone on here talking about men's health.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Yeah.

Functional vs Traditional Medicine

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Um, we have some men listeners, and I think we need to cater to that more. But this is just a I I want you to to dumb it down for me just a little bit and for our listeners. What is the difference between traditional medicine and functional medicine?

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Sure. So traditional medicine is a top-down approach. It's a practitioner that says, here, you do this, right? Functional medicine, the patient becomes a co-creator in their experience. So what we like to say is we'll meet you halfway, you know, we share people with our expectations. Um, but you often ask the patient to possibly make some lifestyle changes. Um, functional medicine really recognizes all areas of medicine, meaning, yeah, you might be doing natural, you know, regular prescriptions, you might even be doing biologics, but you're also looking possibly at nutritional um, you know, supplements. Um, absolutely, you're looking at you know, lifestyle changes, whether it's mind-body medicine, whether it's stress reduction, um, proper movement, right? A lot of people just kind of get lost in that paradigm. So functional medicine basically recognizes all aspects of medicine, but the patient becomes a co-creator in their journey. Um, I like to say, and we like to say we kind of have a beyond functional medicine approach because we absolutely take it into the spiritual, the psycho, emotional, social areas. So I think that's where it needs to be because one of the drawbacks, I mean, functional medicine itself, I think is almost like a Google AdWord term. And we see a lot of not great functional medicine being done. So people use it almost like a catchphrase. So, and you know, I think a lot of patients come into it because it's like, I just don't want to be on all these medications. But now suddenly there are 19 different supplements and then they get supplement fatigue. So is it always getting to the root? Maybe, maybe not. We really think the root falls within our emotions, our past stories, trauma, and all those things that we can bring to the surface. But we like to approach people to say, hey, we want to make you comfortable first, we want to make you feel safe first, we want to reduce those symptoms. So we prepare you for the journey that's ahead, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yeah. Absolutely. What type like when you say um emotional, like what do you mean when you are working with men? What types of things do you see?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Sure. So, you know, a lot of things I see is just it was I think it was Emerson. No, it was Thorough that said, uh, the masses of men are lit leading quiet lives of desperation. And I think that speaks volumes, you know, untapped potential. There's something we all go through, whether it's men or women, but when we get into, you know, our teens and our early adulthoods, we start living life for everyone else, right? Society's expectations, and we kind of lose a sense of self. And then that continues. You know, we might get into a job we don't love, um, but we're just, you know, we're just doing the paces. We're watching the games, we're creating our man cave, and we're just kind of checking out in so many ways. But so often we're not tapping into that full potential. We're really who we really are. Um, I think it was Joseph Campbell that said something to the point of, you know, you spend your life climbing the ladder, but then you get to the top and you realize the ladder's up against the wrong wall. So, you know, that's that, that's that midlife thing. So, and Kay and I practice, you know, a lot of midlife medicine, I guess you could say.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Yeah. So we um work with plant medicine and we work with a lot of um women, and it's that same thing where it's a lot of women come to us and they're like, okay, like I went to college, I got the job, I got the husband, I got the family, I have this, I have that, and I'm the most miserable I've ever been in my life. I need help. It's almost like it's kind of a last resort type of thing. What are common things that you see with men that men are struggling with quietly right now?

Quiet Desperation And Men’s Inner Lives

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Sure. So, well, and you know, quietly, I'd say over the last few years, I had a number of friends, uh, a couple that suicide, right? And, you know, you knew there was issues, you knew there was a major event that happened, but they kept it in. So a big thing is they're keeping it in. And um, and and you know, we can talk about all the metabolic stuff, right? Not sleeping well, lack of energy, overweight. And that's why they get their interest, right? But one of the biggest probably things I would say is a dysregulated nervous system. So they're through life, going through life basically in the margins, just kind of feeling tense, pressure overwhelmed. And we bounce be in our sympathetic or a fire-to-flight state, oftentimes they're bouncing between the hyper-arousal and the hypoarousal. So it's either anxious, um, agitated, maybe angry, and then they dive down to or they numb themselves, right, with a few drinks, cannabis, whatever it might be. And, you know, I'm a big believer that we need to feel to heal. So a lot of the men that I work with, and really patients in general, come numb. You know, they're numb from pharmaceuticals, they're numb from doom scrolling, they're numb from Netflix, they're numb from just quieting all that stuff, that loud noise that we have coming at us. So what I like to work with them is like, all right, got to get you feeling, you know, because we got to feel to heal, and then we got to recognize that pain is the portal. So is that transitional sense? So when you ask what they're looking at, or a lot of things, a lot of things they don't have an awareness or a focus on or they're avoiding. You know, it's kind of like the work of the shadow. And the problem is people think the shadow is so bad, but that's where our potential lies, you know, and that's where all the good stuff is. So um, a lot of times when they come in, it's purely from a functional medicine point of view, they're thinking it's gonna be, you know, supplements, hormones, or whatever. But then said, okay, let's take that next step.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

So why do you think, and this isn't against men, but it's something that I've noticed. Christine and I were talking about this the other day. We just watched the documentary on, or I did, on Netflix in war and what was it? Oh my gosh. I can't remember. I can't remember. It's a it's a documentary about veterans who go and do Ibogain, and these are men who are like Navy SEALs, they are the biggest, toughest like beasts of men who have been in combat and done so many tough deployments. Yes, they're so tough.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

And then they take them to go do Ibogain, and these men are terrified of their feelings. Yes. They don't want to talk about them, they don't want to burden anybody else. I think a lot of times women, we've we've said this before, we have friends we can talk to. Right. You know, we we we blab, we yap a lot, we talk with our friends, we have community in that sense.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Men don't really do that. And I'm just trying to figure out why. What what what makes it harder for men to tap into their feelings or to talk about them?

Why Men Avoid Feelings And “Vulnerability”

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Well, feelings we can't control at first, right? So, you know, we feel we can control our external reality. You know, I can push it through. I can, you know, like yesterday I was on a hike and these guys come up puffing and puffing, they're weight, they're wearing their weighted vests. And I started thinking, I'm like, yeah, weighted vests are a great idea, but what's the mindset that takes you there? And could that mindset, that control and more actually be the thing that's breaking you down? So I don't know if that made a lot of sense, but I think with everything, when you deep go into emotions, it can be a scary place and you feel like you're out of control. And as men, I mean, it's a masculine tendency, is to be in control and to be orderly. And we all have our masculine and feminine, you know, energies to us. And I would say a lot of men are demasculized, and a lot of females are actually over-masculized because they don't feel safe and they feel they have to step into the control seat. So I think that plays a really big role. Um, another thing to that, I think men have to realize their wives can't be their therapists. So one, you don't want to open up to because you don't want to admit your faults, right? Or that you're wounded or something like that. But then again, you know, your wife is not designed or meant to be your farm, your uh therapist. So that changes the dynamic. And then if you're shut down or you're not heard, then you just go deeper into ignoring it. So there is a thing about, okay, talk to someone else, get out of that. Because men really aren't naturally like, let me talk to a therapist or something like that. Like I have an energy healer in California I speak to, and I've been talking to her for years. Every once in a while, I'll do a check-in, and it's really helpful for me. And it's not just the cognitive stuff, right? It's more of the embodiment process that we weave through, which I think is really important because I think sometimes talk therapy, if it's not done the right way, you're just stirring up old shit. Right. And it's just, it's not getting to the root. And I think another thing, I want to use a term because it's thrown around there a lot and it's vulnerable. And I don't subscribe to that term. And the reason why, and you know, a lot of times we'll hear like females want us to be more vulnerable, being more vulnerable, but I think it's how we perceive what vulnerable means. So vulnerable, the source of it is actually wounded. So it in Latin, I think it is. So it's like from vulnar. So what we're saying is we're wounded. But I think the aspect is it's just looking at truth and moving through truth. So kind of like trauma therapy, the goal is isn't to stay there and swim in it and identify with it, it's to shine light on it so you can get rid of it. So I think there's some sometimes there's social terms and kind of where certain areas of our society goes that, you know, be more vulnerable. It it just doesn't sit right with a man to hear that unless they can actually decipher what it really means. And I had to figure out that myself. I mean, I couldn't usually remember the word vulnerable. I'd be talking to Kay, I'm like, what's that damn word? Like it wouldn't come up. And I I didn't understand it. And I'm here and I need to be more vulnerable, but what I needed to be was more truthful about what was going on inside of me, even just with myself. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

It it does make sense. I also I think what you touched on earlier, a lot of women are becoming more masculine, almost like we had to. I'm not saying we in general, but um it's it's it this is just an observation. But I I feel like this the way that the feminist movement has gone, the feminists are very masculine. Like we don't need you, we don't need men. That is a very masculine way to think. I can do this on my own. I don't need help, I don't need a partner, you know. It's I don't know, just a just an observation.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

It's become very normalized to not like men. And you know, I I guess my question is I have a husband, I have a son, Leah has sons and a husband. What is a what is a way that um women can show up better for like the men and the boys in their life?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

So and it goes both ways. Sure, yeah. Because men had to understand how to show up as well, right? Men had to recognize, I think the first step to all of this is men have to become comfortable in their wife's uncomfortable emotions. Instead of I can fix it, right? We just want to go in and fix it, and it's not because we can fix it or think we can fix it or want to pat ourselves on the back. We don't want to sit with those emotions. And that's one of the first things. So the communication works both ways. But on the other side, you know, one question like I think it's a great one when we hear, it's how are you doing? Like, literally, there was a time in my life I was going through a lot of shit, and I felt like I was that rock that everyone was holding on to, but the rock was getting slippery. And then when I would hear how are you doing randomly from someone I wouldn't expect, it was just like, oh. And it wasn't even for me to pour myself out. I mean, I was probably like, no, I'm good, right? And which might not have been true, but it was the fact that you're actually just hearing that. And the other thing is, and I will say, this is one of the biggest things that I had I see in relationships, and it it goes on both sides. After a number of years of marriage, being together, and this usually comes from a man's internal story. The internal story could be I'm not good enough, but oftentimes what they start feeling is she doesn't desire me anymore. And I know this is an issue with females as well. So there's something about the communication between the men and the women that has to be more honest. But when you say, How do you show up for your husband and your children? Um, stop, listen, same thing, don't fix. Because when we talked about that over-masculine energy, a lot of times, and to that, the feminist movement absolutely is once again, women don't feel safe. And there's a lot of stuff swirling in life, and they sometimes don't want to hear a lot of questions. As men, we ask all the questions because we don't want to do the wrong thing, right? Can I do this? How can I do this? What do you need? What do you need? What do you need? For a female who's, you know, running a family, kids, working, whatever it might be. It's like, my God, one more question is gonna throw me through the roof. Please just go do the goddamn thing, and then I'll let you know if it was right or wrong. Does that echo?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Yeah, the mental we call that the invisible mental load. Like if you're asking a list, I don't want to make the list. Like you're but you're putting more work on me to give you a list of things to do, and then that just makes me even more upset.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

And things are not necessarily like my husband can't necessarily fix it. Right. And I think he's looking to fix it. And I'm like, no, I'm just losing it, and I need something to I need you to be solid right now.

unknown 18:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

And all that means is being present, nod your head, let me know that you're listening and not checking out. Um, and I think something that also helps when those things come for a man to understand to say, can you give me two minutes? And even just stay step away, shake it off, do some push-ups to prepare themselves. Because sometimes our nervous systems come in at the same time where they're both hyperwired, and then we're just battling. Right. So, you know, if one can consciously just say, I want to hear you right now, can you give me a minute? And then just drop and do some push-ups. It might be weird, but then you can gain yourself to Yeah. I mean, some breath work, but yeah, but a man has to be present to be able to be strong and support his partner that way, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Christine, haven't you said this before? Women are the weather and men are the sky. Yes.

Showing Up In Relationships

SPEAKER_02 19:29

And I feel like, you know, we have what 28-day cycles. Yours is 24 hours. And so it's like, you know, depending on what phase we're in, um, we both were talking before we were recording. We are both in our ludial, and we're we were like, oh gosh, yeah, that was a moment where we might have acted a little crazy and just like you don't realize it in the moment, you take a step back and you're like, Oh, I'm in my ludial. That makes a lot that makes a the math is mathy.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

And then you're like, my poor husband.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

But also sometimes it's like when I get worked up, he gets worked up too. And then it it's it's the nervous yeah. Yeah, and so it's I I I do try to explain, like, okay, I just I know I'm crazy right now, but I just should be calm. Because it's like you get worked up, now I'm getting more worked up, and I'm already worked up.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

You know, and that's really interesting because you mentioned the luteophase. So oftentimes, like I what I want everyone to understand, it's not just hormones, right? And you do, you really should have Kay on here as well because Kay just wrote a book, Solomon Solomenopause, and I did an interview with her yesterday, and we were really talking about perimenopause and just the cycles and change and how, you know, when a woman goes into menopause, it's just like another transition and it's into deeper wisdom. But the cycles that you had were younger, these are truth cycles and true serum that comes out once a month. So it's actually part of that wisdom truth cycle that if a woman knew about it and her cycle and age can utilize that. And, you know, how you do menopause is how you do your cycle, basically. So that was one of the biggest aha's we got out of that. And listen, I'm on around K all the time, but I never clued in that, you know, and I knew it wasn't just hormones, but that just gave me a different um just language into it, I guess you could say.

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Well, and I like this spiritual aspect to it because a lot of times I think women feel feel guilty because it's it feels like this.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Um that was very, very interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

We're gonna have to have her on to talk about that. Yeah. So I wanna take this back to the men for a second because um I learned something recently and it kind of blew my mind because the amount of people I see who don't know this information kind of I don't want to say it bothers me, but it makes me mad that this isn't more common knowledge. Um I see in a lot of Facebook groups, I'm part of like a mom group, and all these women are like, I think my husband has low testosterone. I think my husband has lowered.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Let's talk about this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

I do want to talk about this because what I learned recently is if your partner is in a serious relationship, if you're if there is a man in a serious relationship, his testosterone is naturally going to drop. It also naturally drops with each child. And there is a reason for that, and it's by design, and not enough people know that. So when women are in these mom groups saying, like, I think he might have it, I'm like, yeah, you have four kids. So I can tell you without you even taking a test, he has low testosterone. Is am I wrong for is this wrong in speech?

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Well, let's talk about I I I don't I wouldn't say it's really more of a biologic thing of having kids that it drops. I think it's actually more of um what comes with four kids. A lot of stress, a lot of responsibility. You know, most hypotestosterone we see, like, you know, andropause really shouldn't start until our 60s or 70s, but we're seeing the decline in 30s. I mean, you know, uh as early as people's 30s. So, you know, over the last 20 years, there's been a market drop across the board. So we got to look at what has increased. Well, stress has increased, um, social media has increased, distractions increased, silence has decreased. So, one of the best things I would say that, and you know, I see it all the time. So, like, what do you do? You go to a, you know, a testosterone clinic, you get a shot, you buy it online with one of these things, but it's not the root. So the secondary hypo T is basically usually as a result of a dysregulated nervous system. And that's a big part of it, right? And then you've got lack of connection. And then you feel like, well, man, it's not working as well as it did. So I'm not good enough. She doesn't desire me. And it's this whole spiral that men go through their head. So it's, you know, I think it's more of a society issue because really, over the last 20 years, 30 years that this has increased.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Do you think that endocrine disruptors would have anything to do with that as well?

SPEAKER_00 24:14

They play a role. We know what it does to frogs, right? But um it plays a role. But honestly, we knew that 20 or 30 years ago. And there's been more of an awareness on plastics over the last 20 years. So I think more people are avoiding things like that. Yes, we have our foods, we're getting more conscious on our foods. I honestly, first and foremost, and we do this in our practice. I mean, for me, like we'll start with the Dringles and cortisol testin and hormone testin' for sure, but it's the nervous system that feeds that. And we are primally designed to be in our parasympathetic like almost 24 hours a day. When are we not in our sympathetic anymore? Right? So we're just in this fight or flight spot response all day long. And depending where you are in your fight or flight response, dictates the man's libido, whether he has none or no interest or whether, and this is the horrible thing when he's in the in-between, I call it the transitional phase, where he's aware of it, he's got that frustration in life and he thinks that's how he has to expel it. But then there's the parasympathetic, and that's when relationships get good. That's when communication's on, that's when everything gets better. So um, so it it's not even just like so the low T it might be, but I think it's more of a nervous system response because we've seen it in both men and women. You put that testosterone up, it doesn't fix it in a lot of cases.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

So I have this is just my my experience with my husband is he takes testosterone. And we've we've been having talks about this, and um I said, you know, if if you stop taking it, like how would it affect you? And he was like, Well, you know, I have no energy. Um he also says that he feels like he has when he works out he actually is seeing progress.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Sure, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

So he and he's like, My libido is better, so like why would I not take it?

SPEAKER_03 26:19

Right.

Low Testosterone Or Nervous System Issue

SPEAKER_02 26:20

And I think a lot of people, a lot of men may may feel that way. And so I Leah and I have had these conversations about testosterone, which is then I go and repeat, and he's like, No, this has like been life changing for me. And I it's I guess my question is is it something where maybe stress I'm trying to think of how I want to word it. Is he just able to handle stress better because it makes him have more energy? Or should it be something where he doesn't take it, but learns to take some things off of his plate? And again, kind of what you said, like regulate his emotions, and maybe that will also make a world of difference, too.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

It's individualized. So testosterone's a great hormone, and it really helps with critical thinking too, right? So he can probably get his work done, get through the day more focused, concentrated, more driven, right? If you've got low testosterone, that that's that also pars with that like the downside of a dysregulated nervous system when we're in the hypostate. That pars with apathy, overwhelm. Um, you know, let me just like get home from work, put the drink, have that drink, or just go away for five or 10 minutes just so I can recoup, or thank God for that long ride home, right? So when testosterone is low, it's more difficult to deal with our emotions and to control our emotions. Absolutely. So we get great benefits like that. But depending on the individual, and then I would say this I don't think testosterone should be given without an assessment of the adrenals, a conversation of the nervous system, as well as thyroid. More and more men are coming up with hypothyroid. We've always seen it as a woman's thing primarily. But when you fix the thyroid, testosterone can bump in its own right. Now we can also talk about all the stuff that suppresses testosterone. How many men are on statin drugs? Statin drugs suppress testosterone. Cannabis, there's a lot of research, it suppresses testosterone. Um, beer, right? That's going to actually increase estrogen. It's going to increase that delivery of your testosterone gets aromatized and goes into estrogen. So sometimes when men are given testosterone and they're not working out and they're not doing the things that they need to be, you know, they start getting more estrogen because that's where it converts, or they're not eating properly. So testosterone has to be done, I believe, in a very responsible manner honoring the whole system, meaning diet, movement, exercise, adrenal styroid, and all that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

You recently made a post, um, maybe it was a little while ago, uh, about fertility and how a lot of times women take it as their their own issue. Um, and men are also big contributing factors. And you brought up cannabis, alcohol, um, stress, caffeine, uh, and yes, I'm drinking my coffee. But I I do think it's something that oftentimes women struggle with and women see it as kind of their responsibility for their faults.

SPEAKER_00 29:27

Their shame, their fault, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's um there's compelling research that a lot of it actually sits on the men and it sits on that lifestyle aspect. So, you know, I think the message in that post was listen, if you're looking to start a family and stuff, start with a lifestyle, get healthy first, right? Because the whole event, the whole experience will just be better and it'll be better for everyone. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Hang on. I want to like go ahead, bring this back to something because I first off, I want to send my husband to you. No, I was I was talking to my husband. We've been talking about that literally since we told you on Instagram because I was like, he's not gonna go to my functional doctor, but he might go to another planet. Yeah. Um, we also joke that like I can say something a hundred times, but if he hears it from our male psychiatrist, he's like, Did you know this? And I'm like, Are you serious? I don't know. There's something there, like I think it's just being told what to do by a woman is is really hard for some men.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

I think it's both ways.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

You're right. Like I would rather have a female doctor than a male doctor.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

So if your husband was to tell you that, it's like, yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

You're right, you're right. So um I think, and I'm I'm gonna hear this again. He has a lot on his plate right now. So he almost sits in that, like, I just have to get through this next year. He's in law school and he's still working, so he's he's got a lot on his plate for another year. Um and I see like he could really do some work around uh uh regulating his nervous system. I think that that would do wonders for him. What he sees is well, I can't change anything about this situation, so I'm just gonna I this is just what I have to deal with.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

I'm gonna push through Grin and Barrett, push through.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Yes. And and I see the stress and I see the load, and it it hurts me because I'm like, you don't have to live this way. It's hard to watch. So I think in those situations, when when somebody's coming to you and they're like, Yeah, but I can't change my life. There's like I have three kids, I have this on my plate, I have to make money, I have to finish law school. Like I hear I feel like what you're saying is if you could just get to a place where you're more regulated, maybe it won't seem so bad.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Well, it's not as bad. So so, you know, I think you know, I'm thinking of what's that?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

I said I'm just making sure that's what I'm hearing.

Hormones, Lifestyle, And Responsible TRT

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'm thinking of one of my recent clients, and we're working through him, and you know, he's he's the same one, like two different businesses. Um, does most of the cooking, the cleaning, the household, um, four kids, um, just a lot of stress, a lot of responsibility. He's absolutely in the fight or flight on the higher end, right? And then he gets apathetic and he drops in the afternoon. But um, when you're in that state, you do have to look at your outside environment. First of all, what can you control? I mean, that's epigenetics. You know, we can talk about it internally, but literally, if you look at what's around you, so I like to say, what can we fix in the outside world first? What tweaks need to be had? What conversations with the partner need to be had, right? Are there some shared responsibilities? Or um, you know, so we start to tweak that. But I texted him the other day, I'm like, all right, so we've been working on the outside world, now we got to work on you. And like I wanted to get that outside of his environment, what needed to be fixed, at least start moving the needle that way so he can get some buying that, oh, kids are starting to pick up their toys or whatever it might be. Um, and then yes, it is that internal world. And I think there's something about, you know, now we're talking about the masculine and feminine energies. When we're in an overdrive of stress, we're over masculine energy, basically. And part of the feminine energy is to sit back and receive. And I think we're just masters of getting in our own way, right? We think the harder we push, the better results we're gonna get. When in fact, sometimes when you just detach and let go, we get out of our own way and basically things start falling into place. So, one, it's the understanding of detachment. And I I tell myself self this every day. This is my mantra. I show up and I do the meaningful work. I focus on the what, but I realize the timeline and the outcome is not mine to control. And when I hit that, I was like, oh, like my shoulders went down. And, you know, because sometimes you keep pushing. That didn't work. Let me push more, right? Um, and it could be that you have to study for the exam. You've got to get the papers done. I get it, there are those things, but that does also fall into time management because time is not a spreadsheet either. You know, we can actually work on our focus, the attention that we put, and time can be on our side, especially when we're feeling lack thereof. It's actually a training I have for my pharmacist group this November, is how to actually look at time and how it worked for you. So it's another thing that I bring into it. So I think long answer, yes. But one of the biggest things that we can do, and I alluded to earlier, is just give ourselves a little silence. Like start the day, nothing. Five minutes, sit in a chair, stare outside, no pen, no paper. But we need to train ourselves into silence and start booking in the day days that way. That way things start to get clearer. Otherwise, things aren't that clear as dog hair is falling all over me. Um, but does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Yeah, no, it absolutely well, and it's also like I know we're talking about men, but I am even guilty of it. I think about like, okay, like I send my kid off to school, and then it's like, okay, well, I need to journal and I need to go do this. And I it's a lot of doing and not a lot of just learning to be. And so I think it's even a good practice for me where it's like, no, I I could take five minutes, multiple days, and just nothing.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

Yeah, and there's a shift that happens. I mean, you finally get I like to, I mean, we can say it's presence, but I actually think we get back to ourself, you know, and then we get to hear those things that we haven't been here and see those things we haven't been seeing, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

All right, Leah. Do you have anything else about men? No. Okay. We can move on. Okay. So um we have not talked about this much at all with any type of um expert or professional. We have had a lot of our opinions. We have shared some of our opinions, um, and more quietly to each other. Okay, so we have become a very medicated society.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

I would say overly medicated. Um and it's gotten to the point I I I literally took a video on my phone out as I was watching TV and watching a commercial, and it was like, oh, you know, are you on an antidepressant and um you know you're still struggling? Take this on top of your antidepressant.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Oh, that's called breakthrough depression.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Yeah. And I was like, what is and it's become this thing where um I think we both have been very conscious to talk about because oftentimes if we this is a very touchy subject that people take very personally. Um I want to know what your opinions are about specifically like SSRIs and Benzos, and how you see it is so common to pile them on with each other. And what does that do to your brain and what is that doing to your body? And it seems like we're more medicated than ever. We don't really talk about it, but we're not we're not better because of it. Um, our mental health has gotten worse. So I just want to hear your input on that.

Fertility Is A Two‑Person Lifestyle Story

SPEAKER_00 37:46

It's funny you said that when you said over medicated, because I think it was 2013. I wrote my second book. It was called Whole Pharmacy, like Whole Foods, Whole Pharmacy, Reversing the Trends of Disease in an Over Medicated Society. This is back in 2013. So we have fast-forwarded since then, and it is a big issue. And I did talk about antidepressants or vaccinations, everything. But um, let's talk at like SSRIs. Let's look at that. So, what do they do? They prevent the body from getting rid of a neurotransmitter called serotonin. Now, what is serotonin? It's an inhibitory neurotransmitter. So, very simply, it helps block out all those external noises that are coming into us, right? So the response comes there. Now, how does that present in some people? Well, they don't tap into their emotions. Um, and you know, we we've worked with people, and I think sometimes there's a need for them, absolutely, but we have a lot of people that come to us trying to get out of them. And that's part of the phase, like you're gonna start feeling again, you know, and you know, we don't want you to go cold turkey be we want you to understand, and you'll even see, like on my Instagram thing, I have this diagram. It's like this dude walking up a mountain, right? And the first thing is numb. The second one is you got to feel to heal, third one is pain is the portal. And then the fourth one I used to quote by Rick Rubin was the better you feel, the better things go. I completely feel that. But you actually have to go to the pain to recognize that at times. But we can also help modify that and transition you through it. So what these serotonin, what SSRIs do is they block that out and it can have its benefits. But we don't know what they do in the long term. There was actually research that was done early 2000s, I think, that they were noticing when they were, it was almost like if you overwater a plant. Well, it was one drug study and they halted it in the midst of it because they were noticing that with medications such as that, that the receptors weren't coming back when they were taking people off of it. So we could be neuter in our brain chemically. I'm not sure. Have we seen people get off of these drugs after being on them for years? Yes. And success successfully so, because we're not just our neurotransmitter receptors, but it plays a big part of it. Um, benzos, you know, we're working on the GABA receptor, same thing, inhibitory neurotransmitters. So in our fast-paced, overwhelmed, overstressed environment, it's these numbing agents that do that to us. And basically what they do is they just quiet down the outside noise, which sometimes is a blessing, but we can find other ways to do that as well.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

Do you think that um a lot of people who take them, it is a long-term for them?

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

What is your opinion about that? Because aren't benzos not meant to be taken long-term? It's meant to be kind of a short-term thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Yeah, you know, and they've got physical addiction qualities to it, but any medication is gonna have some type of addiction to it, emotional, a crutch. I need that. So, um, and that's one of the problems with our society. Prescriptions are just prescribed too casually. Now, what's interesting is it's a pendulum because if you look at like opioids, right? Big problem, over-prescribing. Now, when someone clearly needs it, it's really hard for them to get it, even in a conscious prescribing way. So, you know, our whole medical system is just upside down with all that. I think we need to find a healthy center, but wouldn't it be perfect? But mainstream medicine, we don't have it, if people could be trained, if maybe a primary was working with someone who can recognize that, okay, this is what we're putting you on now. This is our endpoint goal. Maybe we're looking at a year, maybe we're looking at six months, but what do we have to put into place so we make you feel safe and secure now? Then we build you from the inside up to make you stronger, and then we can start peeling it away to see how you do.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

It's both Leah and I have been prescribed medication through our OBGYN. And when we opened up that we were struggling for me anyways, there was never like well, what's what's your home life like? How are you sleeping? Are you eating? Are you moving your body? Um Are you going to therapy or what's what's the trauma? You know, there was nothing. It was just I'm struggling with anxiety, and it was like awesome here.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Um, so that that to me is is really sad, but what is a way where if people are struggling, um, they can better advocate for themselves because I also think there's been a lot of, well, that's the doctor, they know what they're doing. So I'm just gonna blindly trust them. I'm not gonna ask questions, I'm not gonna push. And there I do see too a lot of medical professionals where there is this like dismissiveness, um, where it's like, you know, unless if you can't say this word, then you don't like you don't do your research. Or if, you know, and it's it's I'm like, I would never want to go to you because you're you would make me feel bad if I don't know something, but what I do know is my body.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

And my my you know, if something doesn't feel right or something and I I hated taking it, so I I got off of it. But what are but ways where people can better advocate for themselves when it's kind of going up against a doctor? Because that's tough sometimes.

Regulating Stress When Life Won’t Change

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Yeah. So you can always fire your doctor first and foremost. Um, you know, it's I think a patient needs to empower themselves more and they need to empower themselves with information with really trial and error, what works best for them. You know, it's almost like going into a practice. Well, your life and your health is a practice. But most importantly, what I want to say here is primaries, OBGYNs and stuff, I don't think that's their job. You know, the way the system's set up, they are designed to prescribe because they're only seeing you for seven minutes, right? But I think what can help more is if there's more collaborative efforts in mainstream medicine, or it's essentially, I don't know if the systems will ever integrate, to be honest with you. So I think a patient needs to look out and build their health team. And their health team could be a nutritional coach, it could be a functional medicine practitioner, it could be a health coach, it could be a therapist. So that's first and foremost. Um I I don't think anyone can expect, and they do that, and I see this all the time, you know, like um, you know, well, my doctor prescribed this, so this must be right, you know, but then when you actually just explain to them, because they've never been explained what the medication could be doing and how that can be um present itself and their symptoms and how they're feeling, then it's that aha. So I would say build your team and start small. That would be one of the first things. And to recognize that um you are co-creative in this experience. We can't give our responsibility up to anyone. We we can only look at other people's as guides to help lead, you know, to help us along our journey.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

I think you're right. I recently found a new primary care physician and walked out of that after like not having one for 10 to 12 years, because I've been on this more holistic lifestyle route for a while. Um, I was so disappointed when I walked out of there because I waited four months to get in to see her. And Christine knows this, but within that 30 minute new patient uh interview, I guess you would say, she's looking at the history of my medication and you know, oh, you used. To take migraine medication, why don't you take that anymore? Well, I don't get migraines. Well, do you want me to go ahead and prescribe it to you? And I was like, no, I don't, I don't get them anymore. And and it blew her, like I was like, my husband got sober, so I don't get the migraines. And she looked at me like I was crazy. And then she saw that I was on Zoloft for like six months, eight years ago, was like, you know, how are you with that? I'm like, I'm good. And she was like, Well, should I you want me to prescribe it just in case? I'm like, no, I'm good. So it was like, I felt like I was fighting for myself in that in that office.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

And there were there were three other medications she tried to put me on within that 30 minutes. And I'm like, I don't know how to tell you I don't want to be medicated.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Yeah, without even ask you if you feel you need it.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Right. Like it was like a do you want me to do it just in case? No, I'm good. Um, but I'm I want to say this because uh I uh I have a 17, almost 18-year-old son right now who is um, you know, I don't I don't know if you have kids, but he's very doesn't believe me when I say things and very combative. And so he's in a psychology class right now, and I love that. It's something I wish I had taken in high school, even in college, shoulda, woulda, coulda. Um, we're having a conversation about depression and the serotonin, how that's been debunked, how it is it is been debunked. And this study came out in July of 2021, but the study had gone on for a decade where they were realizing it has nothing to do with low serotonin, it's not a chemical imbalance. And I bring that up to him, and he's like, What are you talking about? Yes, it is. My my teacher said it is, and I'm like, okay, first off, uh, no, it's not. He was like, Well, why would my teacher say that if it wasn't? I'm like, I don't know. There's there's doctors who still believe that it's a chemical imbalance. There's doctors who still prescribe serotonin because they believe that your serotonin is low. So I don't know how to tell you, but it seems like this study was almost buried or pushed aside because it goes against the pharmaceutical narrative that there's nothing wrong with you, it's just a chemical imbalance. So if we do this, it'll fix you.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:00

How do we change people's lives?

America’s Medication Reflex

SPEAKER_00 48:03

So, well, sometimes we don't, right? We got to know our audience. And sometimes people want to be medicated that way. Um and I I think, you know, what's really interesting what you just brought up, you know, cherry picking of studies is just through pharma, right? I mean, they'll pick the ones yeah, they'll pick the ones to get it approved, and they'll negate the ones that would speak about it. So I have very, you know, and and in teaching pharmacists, I'm always hearing where's a double-blind placebo controlled studies. I mean, let's just look at vaccinations. There's never been a study to prove safe and effective in the proper populations or anything like that. So I have a lot of distrust in the science, whatever you're talking about. So now we got to bring it to the human element. And when I'd say that, if I was talking to your scientist, like, well, suppose this. Let's look at serotonin and let's look how these drugs work. They keep the serotonin flowing so someone feels better. But what does better feel like? And how do they work? Like I said, they block out all the loud noise of life, so it allows us to kind of regroup. So they don't necessarily make people feel happier. They're not anti, you know, they just make people feel less. And that's by definition of how those chemicals work. So even without using the study, I would just be open up the conversation. You know, there's some people that can get off of them doing different options, which isn't boosting serotonin, actually. Which in itself would suggest, okay, maybe that's not a serotonin deficiency syndrome, right? Because it seldom isn't. I mean, it goes to nervous. And, you know, that's another thing I think we talked about. You know, when people start getting off these medications, they start looking at their world around them. And it's kind of like that talking head song. You wake up, it's like, this isn't my beautiful house. That isn't my beautiful wife. Like, life looks different. And it's like, oh, now I need to have some conversations about this relationship that I'm in, because these medications have blunt out all the stuff that distracted us from what we really need to face. And that's when we see our patients progress the best, when they have those conversations, when they either change, you know, talk to their partner and their co-partners in this, they're gonna make the changes on both sides, or they walk away. And sometimes that's what people need. You know, it's it's a wild process. So I know the the question was about how do you get people to understand this about medications, but I think the serotonin-only deficiency is such a myopic view. And we got to look broader. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

I also think his, you know, he's young and he's like, I'm he literally said this to me, well, I'm I'm gonna trust the doctors. And I about died inside because I'm like, have I taught you nothing? Of course, the child who grew up in a home where we like don't medicate is like, I'm gonna trust the doctors. I'm like, what is what did I where did I go wrong? But I don't think we've talked about it enough. Like, my kids don't know that we are like more holistic because it's all they've known. They don't know they're going against something. Um, but I when he said that, I looked at him and I was like, listen, not all doctors believe the same stuff. There are doctors who are more holistic, and there are doctors who only know what they've been taught. And also they're human. Humans make mistakes, humans don't know everything. So even when people are like, I'm gonna trust the science, kind of like what you're saying. Okay, but there's there's science on both ends. Like which science are you picking, which science are you believing? And the same with doctors. I'm gonna trust the doctors, which ones, because the ones who kind of, in my opinion, who move to the more holistic world, kind of get outcast and and they get a bad reputation. And I'm probably gonna trust that one more. So how do you trust?

SPEAKER_00 52:07

And honestly, with that question too, because some of them could be, you know, like I think you really need to look at the whole, the whole picture, the whole patient. Um, because there's some holistic doctors that I don't think they're worth their salt, to be honest with you, you know. So, and there's some of them, like we've seen it, you know, they'll overlook critical things of pathology that needs to be addressed. But they'd be like, no, you just need to detox. No, that's not what they need, you know. So we, I mean, we've got a lot of people into our practice that were like the 11th practitioner that they've seen. And it can come from all different walks of life, and that kind of alludes to the using functional medicine as a catchphrase. So um, I think honestly, asking a doctor their philosophy of practice would be a really big thing because if they're only learned through what medical school has taught them, well, they're only gonna see that view. And that view might be a fine view, but if we're looking for a larger approach, then we need to bring someone else into the mix to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Yeah. So we um had a listener, male listener. Um, he was wanted to go do an uh ayahuasca journey. He uh struggled with addiction, but been sober, but went from um one addiction to then an antidepressant and had been on it for you know 20 years and got to the point where you're right, like it did maybe numb some of the depression, but also numb some joy and some happiness. And he got to a point where I'm like, I'm so sick of being on this, I've been on this for so long. Anyways, he wanted he went wanted to go do an ayahuasca journey and he had to hit like be off of the SSRI for a certain amount of time before he went to this retreat. Oh this is like I'm not a doctor, I would never recommend anybody to wean off. He did not wean off, he just stopped taking the antidepressant and messaged me and felt like he had spiders crawling all all over his body. And I mean, was absolutely miserable. And I mean, luckily he did ayahuasca, that turned out okay, but um, I don't think that people realize how much of a process weaning off these medications can be. Um, and both Leah and I follow this. Is it a doctor on TikTok? And he he talks about how SSRIs, it can take two years to properly wean off an SSRI. And I don't think people understand like how this like you getting on an antidepressant and getting off of it, that's it's a it's a big kind of a big deal that should be taken seriously, but we again it's like kind of treated like candy. Um can you talk about your opinions about weaning off medications like that?

SSRIs, Numbing, And Tapering Realities

SPEAKER_00 55:01

Yeah, I'd actually like to talk about that whole example. Um, you know, I believe anything could be your poison, anything could be your medicine. And that goes for conventional drugs, that goes for plant medicine, that goes for beer, cannabis, you name it, right? So it's really the it's the relationship we have to it, I think is the key factor. So weaning off medications, it's really all dependent on the individual, how long they've been on it. What is their life like, right? What traumas, what stories are they telling themselves? Like, and when we say trauma, you know, it doesn't have to be big stuff to create a story. Like abandonment can come from the smallest little example when you're six years old, right? Like an inconsequential story issues incident that the story wraps around your head. So then you have a codependency, right? So that would just be an example of I can't calm down my mind, I need to settle down here, take this SSRI. Oh, I'm chill now, I'm not worrying about that anymore, right? So we can get dependent on that just for the peace of mind. And is it peace of mind? No, it's just a quieter mind or a number mind. So yeah, the time duration certainly can take up to that long. But I think it also depends is are we looking at it just as that, or are we looking at everything else in their life? So, once again, the first thing is to get someone to feel safe and stable and then to start building them up where they're deficient, and then we can start pulling away. So it's one of those add one, take one, add one, take one. Now, if I can I speak to plant medicine for a bit, absolutely. Okay, cool. So, you know, it's a big thing now. And people have had amazing experiences, wonderful breakthroughs. Um, but I've also dealt with some people who still have lingering effects and it wasn't a good experience. So when I look at that, and I mean, this would be just something I believe. I mean, what is the true connection between our conscious and our subconscious? It's breath. So I would recommend anyone to work on their nervous system first. Let's look at the dysregulation and get into some breath work. Very simple stuff. I actually think breath work is the gateway to prepare people to think for things like this. In my mind, I'm hearing this guy takes that off, noise gets loud. I'm glad he had a great ayahuasca experience. I probably would have freaked out, to be honest with you. I mean, like, I was like, is he still in it? Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Well, and we talked about that so much on our podcast about, you know, this isn't like something we we do all the time. It's done very, very, very intentionally. And we have heard so many horror stories about, you know, the way people done it, how much they took, what minds, you know, set that they had, who they were with.

SPEAKER_03 57:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

So much of that stuff. And it's it's literally why we started this podcast to like, yes, these these medicines are powerful, but doesn't necessarily mean that they're good or bad. They're they're powerful. So there's a lot of factors that go into it.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

And we talk a lot about the tools, you know. We we've, you know, Christine and I have both done a lot of breath work, and and when talking to people about preparing for plant medicine, well, we have to make sure, like we tell them too, like, you have to make sure you have these tools in place before is after you're gonna need them. Like it's not it's not a magic fix, it's not a quick fix or a magic bullet. Like you're gonna go back into real into the real world. You can't stay in a plant medicine journey forever. The good ones away. Um, so you have to get your mind right before so you can go back to that. And integrate after. Yes, yes. No, you're absolutely right. We've talked about the the negatives of this as well. And I think people very quickly, like in that case, we've had several people also reach out to us and say, you know, I listen to your podcast, I'm I'm on this much medication. How do I come off? And we're like, that's not like all we can say is do not come off of them cold turkey. Like you need to be talking to someone.

SPEAKER_03 59:15

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

And even this worries me because if if someone's going to their doctor saying, How do I come off of this medication? I don't think even the doctors sometimes recommend the right tapering off.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Right. It's generalized, it's not patient specific. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

So there is a case that Christine and I have been talking about. This happened a couple of years ago. I don't know if you're familiar with the Lindsay Clancy case. You know who that is.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

No, it doesn't work about it.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

I'll give you like the quick wiki version. Um she's a mother who a couple of years ago was suffering so bad with postpartum depression and had three children, um, was begging for help, had checked into a treatment facility multiple times. Um, her and her husband were really trying to like help get this situation under control. Um, she had a psychotic break and murdered her children and then tried to take her own life and she survived. Um the case is coming up now. So this happened a couple of years ago, and what's coming out is that she was on 12 different psychiatric medications. Um, her doctors were taking her off of one, putting her on another one. Like there was no time. Multiple psychiatrists, none of them talking with each other to see what she was on. And the story that's being told, you know, her husband is getting a lot of backlash because he's still supporting her. He's like, this one, she's not a monster, you know. I I know that that wasn't her that was doing that. The system failed her. You know, we wanted to get her help. We tried to get her help. And he's getting a lot of hate for that. But I kind of see where he's coming from because the story that's being told right now is that she had a psychotic break and it was due to postpartum depression. Even though it is out that there she was on 12 different psychiatric medications.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:25

Which most of them have black box warnings to say these can create increase suicidal tendencies.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Yes. Well, and the other thing too is I think they put her on an antidepressant, and then she was like, I'm not sleeping. I'm I'm struggling with insomnia. Put her on an ambient, put her on another antidepressant, like again. And she started to hear voices, and her her husband did try to help. He at first she was like, you know, doing it was and it was during COVID too. So, you know, a lot of people were struggling, and you know, and so she was doing these telehealth sessions, and then she wasn't getting better, but then her husband would sit in on the sessions because he is, I assume, watching his wife kind of lose herself and he's trying to help, but a lot of us, you know, didn't have those tools or didn't know what to do. And, you know, it's it's hard to, you know, we're following this case and we're watching people call him a monster, call her a monster. How could you ever do that to your child?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:29

And I'm right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

I think I think this needs to be a deeper conversation about maybe how our mental health system and our, you know, our medical system has uh failed this woman and failed this mother and failed these children. And that needs to be more of a conversation. But it's like such a taboo thing to even kind of push against. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:55

Well, and from what I'm hearing on that one, I mean first of all, she's got postpartum depression. So then I start to wonder, okay, did they check progesterone? Did they check thyroid? Did they really start from the ground up? So they're blaming on postpartum depression, but they're not treating postpartum depression because an anti an anti-anxiety or a psychotrop, you know, these aren't treating, right? Treating, we think we're rooting, you know, we're hitting the problem. But what they gave her is a chemical lobotomy, basically. And, you know, that is like how can you even get to healing at that point? So they first missed the ground. I mean, I don't know if they did. Maybe they looked at progesterone thyroid, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

But doesn't sound like I was probably not.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

Yeah, and another thing that comes out as well, you know, when we hear those, you know, voices, people are easily tagged with things like schizophrenia, right? And I do find this as a heavily medication-induced thing. I think sometimes it brings it on, but I also think it's when people are going through a spiritual crisis. And, you know, if you know the work of Joseph Campbell, back in the day, he was working with a psychiatrist out in um San Francisco, John Perry, I think his name was. He's got the same name as one of the writers for The Grateful Dead, John Perry Barlow. Um, but he noticed in his schizophrenic patients how they literally, when they were allowed to, not medicated, they went through the whole hero's journey step by step. Each personality was a different element of the hero's journey, which I was like, this is the soul calling out for help.

unknown 1:04:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:32

Which I think is true. Yeah. And there's some papers out there on it, just their conversations. They never made it official. They did some talks out at what Esselin Institute and stuff like that on it. But um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

Okay, that's a rabbit hole I will be going down later.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Yeah, but I I think it really shows when we're talking about mental health, it's not just mental, it's emotional, but there's this spiritual element of our inner self, our authenticity that's crying to be heard and it's looking for where it needs to be in this world, you know?

Plant Medicine, Breathwork, And Safety

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

So I we have maybe touched on that. We've talked about the hero's journey, we've talked about the heroine's journey. That is a beautiful book by Maureen Murdoch, and and everybody goes through both parts of it, but instead of going through like a midlife crisis, it's it should be an awakening, but nobody's ever taught us how to use it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Um, and I have said this and I got a little pushback on it. This was years ago, when I came out of my postpartum depression, realizing, like, hey, wait a minute. I don't necessarily think that it was a chemical postpartum depression thing that needed to be medicated. I think what happened is I had my first daughter. I had a lot of mother wounds, a lot of issues with my mother growing up. And I think having her brought so much of that up to the surface.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

Absolutely that it was hard to face until I faced it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

So that was the gift, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

It absolutely was because now, like you know, I'm not trying to go into my story, but I went 12 years without speaking to my mother, and now we have a relationship again because I kind of worked through those mother wounds myself because my daughter was the catalyst to them, you know. So I saw postpartum depression as something very different. Sometimes I think it's it's women having children and being called to this higher vibration.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

Being called to meet it there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Yeah, I mean, women have different phases of their life that goes through that and different representations. And yeah, that's I think that's point on.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

How would you so this is something where I got stumped? I'm gonna go back to my conversation with my 17-year-old because when he's like, then what is depression? And so my take on that is, you know, I think it's a loss of self. I think it could be a lot of things. I can, I think it could be a loss of purpose. Um, I think it could be you have gone through so many different hard things in your life, but you haven't transmuted any of them. And so you're just sitting in this muck of this hard life. Um, it was a hard question to answer because and I don't think we've ever even on this podcast asked somebody straight up like, what would you say, what what would you say is depression is? How would you what causes it? What what is it?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:29

Well, I would say it's a culmination of symptoms that are difficult to. Deal with. And if you also look on my Instagram out, you'll see I have this block, right? And it's I took it from the powerful engagement and I just kind of used it how we walk people through transitionally through their emotions. So four different blocks. They use this in like, you know, mental sports and stuff and stuff like that, right? But it shows on the left is the sympathetic, the right's the parasympathetic. So then it's got emotions. So a high negatives, agitation, I talked about this agitation, anger, irritability, low is apathy, depression. Um, high is feeling connected, feeling in flow, low is mellow, chill, relaxed. But I would look at all these symptoms. And if someone said they were depressed or were diagnosed with it, I would say what other symptoms are here. Because it's usually not just sadness. I mean, it could be apathy, and that's the overt, overriding one, but I'd be curious what other symptoms have you experienced that even got you here? So that would my first thing would be it's probably a culmination of symptoms or at least one port of their life, which are difficult to deal with. And I I think I don't want, I don't think we can tag it into it. It's not a chemical imbalance. Some people might have low serotonin and then maybe they're depressed. So it's easy to say, oh, there you go, right? But um so some of the things that you said, I think it is a shift from self, right? We're not in and and it could be purpose, you know, like if we're living a life experience, it depends how we respond to it. It can piss us off, which can motivate us. Anger's a great emotion, right? If we control it right. Um, but sometimes when we get in that lower negative, we just don't have the fuel to kind of bring us up to that. So I think it just falls, it's where does it fall in that paradigm of our sympathetic, parasympathetic, and all the emotions that can come out from that?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:21

Does that no, it it absolutely makes sense. Another thing that I said to him is, you know, I think sometimes if you probably measured someone who is depressed, if you measured their serotonin, it would be low, but it's not caused by that. But because when you're depressed, you isolate, you don't have connection. So there are ways to build that serotonin naturally, go outside, work out. Yeah when you're depressed, you're not doing those things. So I'm trying to explain to him like there are things you can do to build that serotonin back up. And when you're in a state of depression, you're not doing any of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Yeah, but you could feel non-depressed with low serotonin. So I think the response is you do those things to feel better.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

Right. So the objective doesn't even have to be this neurotransmitter that's in our body. You know, it's what works and what's the response. And, you know, depression is a natural emotion. It's okay to be depressed, right? The job is to work through it. I mean, if we have a great loss, if we lost a loved one, yeah. I mean, to say you're not depressed, you're you're probably a psychopath, right? So, you know, it's a natural um or sociopath, but it's it's a natural emotion to experience. But the thing is, how do we transition? What makes us feel better? Did we release it? Did we detach from what we were holding on to in a conscious way, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:48

Yeah. So I think that's the important thing. It's not a bad thing. And like you said, your people, I mean, that was you went into the darkness of it, and that was your gift. You know, your relationship with your mom's better, right? So life gets better when we face our challenges.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:04

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

Um Leah, are you ready to talk about the Talon Hall of It All?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:12

You did a series about um autism, and I can never say that Lovicorin. Thank you. Thank you. Um, this has been an interesting thing for me because again, like my 17-year-old is he is on the spectrum. Um, so is my husband. So this has been something, it's been a hot topic lately. Uh it's been coming up. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of things that contribute to it, but but what is your I want to hear like the the simple version of of the foliate chronicles that you were giving on your Instagram. Okay. And and how the Tylenol plays into that. Because I think a lot of people hear that and they're like, Tylenol doesn't cause autism. And it's like nobody said that. That's not what was said. That's it's it's a bigger conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:06

Absolutely. So yeah, so we'll hit both of them. So um I look at, I mean, autism, there's a lot of factors to it. There's not one thing that causes autism. Um, do y'all know Rashid Bhutar?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

No.

Postpartum, Psych Meds, And System Failures

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

Okay, so he died in the midst of COVID. And he was a big, he was a I had the opportunity to meet with him and talked to him a number of times in my trainings, but he was a physician out of the Carolinas, and his son was autistic, and he did a lot of great work to get his son out of the phase of autism, and that was his practice. So when COVID came up, he was very outspoken. He was one of the loud voices against the vaccinations and what was really going on. It wasn't biological warfare on our body. He suddenly was poisoned, and he basically died from it. So something happened, and you can this is a rabbit hole for you to check, but Rashid Bhuttar was an amazing physician and heart of gold. And I mean, he was up there, like there's like 12 people that were outspoken, like um I can't even think of their other names, but this all happened during COVID. But one thing that I took away from during one of his talks was he believes there's an element of impaired detoxification. So I think if we can generalize it to that, okay, impaired detoxification, whether it's through our liver, our gut, our bowels, whatever it might be, or kidneys. Um, and you know, also EFTs, like like he actually talked about an experience where they had an autistic child that they put them in a non-wired home, basically, started to notice improvements over 30 days. So there was no wireless activity or anything like that. So, you know, we look at these things that can suppress. Now we've got the genetic thing. Does someone have a mutation that's a potential to it? Okay, so that's gonna, and that's another thing I want to talk about. You know, there's a lot of stuff, and we'll talk about it as far as you know, methylation. If you have a mutation for it, that's not functional. It's not saying it's a functional thing that you need to treat. So there are other ways to find out, it just shows potential impossibility. So back to the tolanol. Um, in our practice, Kay and I seldom ever have ever recommended tolanol. We just don't like it because it's impairment of glutathione. So when this happens, it creates another metabolite in the body. And these can have detoxification capacity. So telenol creates a metabolite, decreases glutathione. Glutathione is a master antioxidant and supports a body and detoxification capacity. So there's an element to it, right? Is it the primary cause? No. Um, I was on a podcast with two other pharmacists that's on the pharmacy podcast network, and it was kind of funny because they were putting down Trump by the way he said it. And that maybe it would have been Oz that should have said it and stuff like that. I'm like, no, we needed a bullhorn to get this out there because Kay and I have been looking at, you know, regardless of what you care, you know, think about them, right? I mean, not present, whatever, but it wouldn't have made an impact. If a nice little letter went from the FDA to every doctor's desk, it would have been put in the trash and no one would have heard about it. So now it's a debate to speak of. So is Tylenol, and then, you know, the other part of that is that we've got such casual prescribing and recommendation, and the fact that it's over the counter, we think it's okay. So then the conversation is take the lowest possible dose needed for the shortest amount of time. Like that's the official ACOX dance, right? But the thing is, that's really interpretive. I need six a day to get rid of my headache. That's the lowest possible dose, and my lowest possible time is every damn day, right? So we don't give people the proper education. One, that impairs detoxification, and two, right? And and are there other alternatives? I won't even get into aspirin and rye and stuff like that. We don't need to go there. But, you know, because the whole when Tylenol kind of came into our society, it was kind of an interesting thing how popular that it got at the time. So, and we had these knee-jerk reactions to it. You know, I've got a pain, need to treat it. I've got a pain, need to treat it. So we need to talk about alternatives. And do we really need that? Like, does a fever of 99 degrees need to be treated? No, it's the body's natural process. I think that's another education that needs to be had for new parents, expecting parents, right? When do we treat and what are the options? Because the fever is leading to killing stuff off. And, you know, and Kaylee even spoke more about this when she saw it with her own children. You know, when we go through this illness, it usually leads to a growth phase in life, which is kind of interesting. So that's kind of the whole Tylenol thing. Just really general, depletes glutathione. Glutathione is a major antioxidant. There are research that shows in autistic children that some of them do have low depleted glutathione levels. Now, there's also studies that show some of them have normal levels. So we're not saying it's only Tylenol. We're just saying it can be a piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:48

Now, the folic acid thing. So folic acid was put into our food system in the late 90s. And it was because to help reduce neural tube defects, and it worked really well. Right. So put it in the foods in folic acid. Now, think about it. You put in the food, so you have to put it in a form that doesn't break down easy because we want stuff to sit on grocery shelves for a long period of time so they don't expire and we don't have to throw it out. So folic acid is not folate, right? Folate is what's in our body, and we have a natural form of folate known as five-methyl tetrahyde of folate that you can get over the counter, actually. It's in a lot of natural supplements. Now, when I talked about leucovorin, that's a prescription of folinic acid. Um, that's about two phases from folate. So you got folic acid here, needs to break down, needs to break down. And then we've got unmetabolized folic acid. So now there's some research wondering the folic acid that we don't break down, that can have maleffects to our body as well. So folate's supposed to break down, and then it would eventually go to natural folate, and then we've got these receptors in our brain, these folate receptors, right, that need that. So what they found in autistic children when they were given them folinic acid, that speech patterns came back. Why is that? Well, the thought is that we've got these receptors in the brain, but when we're given folic acid, it has an competitive inhibition to natural folate. So, yeah, we want to get folate from our foods. It could be liver, it could be greens, uh, it could be eggs. There's a number of foods that have natural folate to it. So that would be the best way. But now you're taking folic acid, right? And that's cheap. It's going to be in most multivitamins that are enough quality source. So that has a competitive inhibition on those brain receptors. So you got folic acid, you got natural folate, folic acid wins. So when our brain receptors aren't getting the benefits of the folate at that point. Then the other thing, there's the dairy component to it, which is very interesting. So with autistic children, they found, sorry, OB wants back up. Um with autistic children, they found that a lot of them have um what are called uh alpha autoantibodies, which are basically antibodies to the folate receptors in the brain. So what happens is you can be putting a lot of folate on someone, but if that's not getting to those folate receptors, you're not getting the activity. Because, and one of the things that worked to decrease these antibodies was removing dairy from the diet. So they saw with autistic children, they took the dairy away, the antibodies went down, they put the dairy back, the antibodies went back up.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

So I kind of described it as like football terms, right? So you've got the enzyme, and that's where the receptors are. You got the running back who's the folate, but then you got the defensive line that's trying to block them. Those are the out, those are the antibodies. So by just doing something simple, like getting natural folate in our body, not taking folic acid for the competitive inhibition, taking a natural folate if need be, and then reducing the dairy to get those antibodies out of the way, then we can get the chemical, the folate, what we need to the receptors to take that action. And that's where the speech patterns improved.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:02

Interesting. Did that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:06

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:07

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:08

We kind of said what you were saying earlier, like this shouldn't be a political issue, and everybody is making it a political debate right now, which is so crazy to me. Yeah. Um, because if if there if there was something I could do to help my child and it was unconventional, I would probably want to look into it, no matter how political it where it stood on the political spectrum. Because to me, it's not that shouldn't even be a factor, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:36

But we allow our ideals to run off.

What Is Depression, Really

SPEAKER_02 1:20:39

Well, and it's it's hard too because now with everything is so polarized, you are seeing medical professionals make it political. And it's really disheartening because you know, I would hope that you know, we all would should be able to go to a doctor and no matter where we stand or how much we differ from the doctor's opinion, we would still get like adequate treatment and we wouldn't biased, yeah, unbiased, but it doesn't feel that way right now. No, no, unfortunately. And it's there's this um this doctor that I follow, and she's gotten so much hate. I'm now gonna kind of lead into the vaccination of it all. Um, she's gotten so much hate because she says that she will continue to still see patients and children who are unvaccinated. And it's wild to see how you know disheartening the comments are of, you know, those people should get their kids taken away and you know, CP CPS should be called and and also to see doctors, the way doctors are handling this situation. Um but what I was gonna say is we are we are very quick to label you're either vaxxed or you're anti-vaxxed. Um and especially, you know, a post-COVID world where people were losing their jobs because they didn't feel comfortable or safe taking a vaccine. I think it's I think it's an okay thing to question. I'm saying that as someone who is vaccinated, but I I I think it's an okay thing to question what am I putting in my body? How is my body respond to this? We're all so different. What is, I guess, your stance on that or your opinion on that in such a black and white issue, it seems to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:38

I don't believe in mandatory vaccinations. I don't really believe in mandatory anything. So I gotta put that one on. I believe in pro-choice on that. Now, I also believe that people have a responsibility to keep themselves healthy. And I'll look at this from a couple different levels. So um, when I was a pharmacist, when I worked in pharmacy, I was not a vaccinating pharmacist, I wouldn't do it. I just it wasn't like I believe I could have a choice. I believe I could live healthy in this world without a vaccination, right? And I believe that's possible because when we strengthen our immune system, then we should be able to have such natural defenses. Um, but I would also see people with the attitude, I'm not getting that flu shot, but they'd eat like shit. Yeah. Right? I'm like, well, uh don't say that. Like, like you're not helping the conversation. So, and and if anyone ever asked me from behind the counter, um, I would say I'd, I'd, I'd answer them what they were asking me, but also say, you know, I would recommend you do your own research because there's a power of belief too. If someone believes, for instance, the flu shot has prevented them from getting the flu, and I talked them out of getting the flu shot, well, there's this ingrained belief. It's a it's completely a it could be a placebo response, who knows? Then they suddenly get the flu. Well, it's the belief that got them that because I neutered them and I did not allow them to have that. So I think that's really important. Um, as far as the COVID, so I I I personally, and looking back when COVID was going on, um, like I immediately saw it as problem reaction solution. Like it was, I'm like, this is constructed. And I've got my days of, I mean, I was looking at chemtrails in the sky in the 90s, and now they're real, right? So I've played in, yeah, I know. So it's like, we're finally vindicated, but um, but so when that came out, and you know, personal experience, I wasn't gonna get it. And I lost that's actually so for me, COVID was a gift because I wasn't taking myself out of the pharmacy world. I was still working part-time. I'll say I had one foot in, one foot out, but I had to walk away from a job zone because I was fired basically, because I would not get the vaccination. Oh, so so that got me out of pharmacy for honestly, it was a gift. I wouldn't have done it myself. I would have stayed in that comfort zone. Yes, did it put me into really challenges moving from Michigan to Indiana with not a job and having to develop things in the midst of COVID? Yeah, but God, thank God. So, you know, thank you for that. And I think most people with the COVID experience, they'll find, even if it's, and it's a hard thing to say, and I don't want this to be received the wrong way, but two things that we've noticed. I think it brings to the forefront health issues that would have come anyway, just at a sooner rate. Um, but I think it has given the experience of it a lot of gifts if people look into to see what it showed them. Um, and we see this on multiple levels. You know, it was a hard time. People being isolated, it was a hard time. We know the negative impact. And especially, and we've got patients that it's just heartbreaking to see things that have happened. But this one particular patient that I'm thinking about, she said, I think this is my spiritual quest of why this happened to me and how she can work with others. So to me, that's a gift, right? So and now the conversation always comes up. And I used to be really sensitive about it. I mean, I used to be loud and boisterous at first, but then when I'd be in front of other practitioners or even patients, I didn't want them to feel, I had to think about how to have the conversation. Because if you regret doing it, it's not my intention to make you feel guilty. But often that's an it's a quick response that we go to, that feeling or avoidance, right? Like, oh, could the vaccination really have led to this? Well, I don't want to take that upon me. And that's okay, right? So sometimes the conversation, because it's really easy that we can put our defense mechanisms up for people to heal. So currently in practice, um, you know, we are checking for the antibodies to see where they are, and we see them on all levels, extremely high. Sometimes they correlate to symptoms, sometimes they don't. Um, and then we also look for other factors. So, you know, long story short, I don't believe in mandatory vaccinations. I believe it is our responsibility to be the healthy people we should be. Um I guess that's it. Did I answer your? I uh went off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:04

You kind of did. I guess I would say you kind of touched on something that hit me for a second because um I did get the first vaccine. And after that, my husband and I both just kind of like, what are we doing? Like what we jumped into that so quickly, and then we never got another one and we never talked about it with anybody else. We never just pressure. We kept pretending we were getting our boosters and we never did. And there's a lot of guilt that comes with that. And so you said that. Like you didn't say anything to make me feel guilty, but but when my mind changed about it, we felt guilty, especially because we had our oldest vaccinated and we like were like, why do we do that? And now we're like, I guess I'm just kind of tr struggling with this guilty feeling. What to I don't know if I should do anything with it. Sometimes it comes and goes, and sometimes I'm like, well, we haven't felt anything from it yet, so I think we're okay, you know? Like I'm not gonna beat myself up over we did the best we could with the information that we had, absolutely changed our minds, and that's okay too.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

Absolutely. I mean, I don't think any decision's wrong, to be honest with you. I think there's a reason we made that decision, and we'll look back and connect the dots and it'll all make sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:26

Yeah. What do you say about, you know, if somebody's anti-vax or they just they want to sit on it or they want to do their own research or you know, trust their own intuition, and I think that's okay to say too.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:41

What do you say to the people who are like, if you do not get this vaccination, you are going to be responsible for getting other people sick. That's like we need herd immunity, and there is you see that I'm very quiet about it. Um but I see that a lot where someone who is vocal about just like, no, I I made this choice for myself and my family, and just again, the social media vitriol where it's like, oh my God, how could you do that? Hurt, you know, you're you're now gonna be responsible for me getting sick. What is your response to that?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:15

I I usually don't give it any time.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:18

I don't give it any energy. Um, they're obviously reflecting something within themselves. You know, I think that's more their story, basically. So I really just don't give it any time because you're not gonna change that mind. But I'm also not going to change my choice.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:35

Yeah. I like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:36

Yeah. I like that. And and and you know, it doesn't hold water. The herd immunity thing through vaccinations does not hold water. It's not an argument. Then you can also say, well, if they're so damn effective, then you should be fine around me.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:49

Oh, that part.

Autism, Tylenol, And Folate Pathways

SPEAKER_00 1:29:51

You know what I mean? And let's look at this. Look up the number needed to treat. Like if you look up the NNT for every vaccination, like I can't even remember the COVID one, but it's up there. I think it's over 100, like or something. Like you need to vaccinate, like my numbers might be off, so, but for instance, flu vaccine. You need to vaccinate like 47 people to prevent one case.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:15

That's a lot, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:17

Yeah. So, you know, another rabbit hole. Do some research. Do NNT on statin drugs. Yeah. Like how many people need to be on prescribed a statin drug to prevent one case of heart attacks?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:28

Okay. Okay, so then can I uh I could talk to you all day. Can I ask what your opinion is about um how many vaccines we get now compared to what we used to get? And are things like the polio vaccine needed in your expert opinion?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:49

I believe so. I mean, I believe most when you look at it, and I actually had this in my book that I wrote in 13, um, most vaccinations came out after the disease was actually on the download.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:01

I read that about polio.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:02

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. A lot of them are that way, you know. And you know, most things in our society cleaned up when we had sanitation cleaned up, right? So once again, epigenetics, how we put our environment, how we feed ourselves. Um, but I so I'm not gonna say there's one vaccine that's necessary and there's one that's not. But I will say, do I feel someone can actually go through this life without any vaccinations? Yeah, I believe so.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:27

How can um people advocate for themselves? And also like when you take your kid to the doctor, that gets pushed really, really hard. And to know, okay, which one to go with or not at all.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:43

Yep. So I would interview a doctor and find out their stance because I've speaking, I speak to a lot of people, especially pharmacists that have gotten into this, and you know, they'll they'll come to their attention. So they'll ask the pediatrician. I mean, let's look at, I mean, I don't want to devalue it, but wellness visits are based on the backs of vaccinations, right? It is created an industry of pediatrics, you know, and I'm not I'm not devaluating some of the great work that they do in the emergency work. Our emergency medicine system is best for us. Awesome. Yeah. But um, I would interview, and there's a lot of places where, you know, be especially nowadays where practices are being bought by hospital systems, like independent practices, that practices are like vaccination or not. So you really got to seek out these practitioners that do it. Um, other options could be if you want to stick with some, obviously change the schedule, no more than one at a time. So there's a lot of things that we can navigate to it. Um, but I'd also look at the whole body if the kid's not pooping, right? If there's digestive issues, like these are red flags that need to be asked. It's not time to do it. So, but as far as pediatricians, interview them and ask them their stance. And it's okay to say I don't think we're a fit.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:54

I don't think we talk about that. I don't think people know that they can do that. Same with like interviewing therapists. Like you're allowed to fire your therapist. If you don't connect, like you can find someone else. And yeah, I'm I'm having this realization too. Like maybe I for a minute I was like, okay, no more primary care physician for me. I'm just gonna stick with what I have. And I think you're right, maybe there's somebody out there I just haven't found yet who is gonna actually listen to what I need, what I want.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:24

And there might have it's yeah, it's it's pediatrician, it's tough. It's hard. And I see this in parents. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:31

Because I think parents are just trying to do the make the best decision that we can for our our our children. We want our, of course, I want my child to be healthier than I am. Um and but it is also it's this again, we're we're very conditioned, I think, to please and to listen and to follow. And um, you know, there's I I think all of us have had a bad experience with a doctor. Um, I think many of us have had a bad experience where it's like you feel even if you do raise concerns or you do ask questions, you get dismissed or um push back. And again, I think it's a good reminder to like that it might not be the right fit, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:23

Yeah, and it it is a hard place to be in because also when you're trying to make this decision, you know, you have like 90% of the medical system to say you should do that. It's like oncology and cancer therapy. Like, okay, I hear this stuff and I don't feel it's right for me, but oh my God, what if I make the wrong decision? So I feel better going with what people's telling me to do. And sometimes that's divert and responsibility, and that's something that I gotta we gotta look within ourselves. We have that with patients. Please tell me what to do. It's not our job. We'll guide you, right? But you gotta make the decision yourself. And I think that's a big thing. It's easier to say, oh, well, they told me to do it. Not my fault, right? So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:04

Okay, we need to send our husbands his way and interview pay. And interview pay. And now I'm going to find your book. And um, where can I find your book?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:15

I think it's still on Amazon. It was so long ago. It's called Whole Pharmacy Reversing the Trends of Disease in a Never Medicated Society.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:25

I do. It's been a bit of a hiatus right now, but I'm going to be re-releasing it in January of 26. So Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:31

So to all of our listeners, um, if you follow Rob, we'll post his information. He is nuggets full of information. Like you do a lot of reels and informative um little snippets. And you know, I'm on there sometimes. I'm on there all the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:51

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:52

Um, so I think you're just a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for what you're I love that you've been in this space before it was trendy. I hate that like it's trending now, but also love it at the same time. You know what I mean? Like yeah, I love the the chemtrails in the 90s.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:08

That was like well, and that's what's funny now. And now we see ourselves like transitioning really into the spiritual, right? And taking it to that next level.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:18

So you've you've figured it out. I love it. Um, do you have anything, any words of advice you want to leave our listeners at all?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:27

Gosh, I you know, I the word came up intuition, you know, truth, intuition, and wisdom, I think are the biggest things. Uh find center within self, um, find space and time. Um, hey, OBC's mom. Um, find space and time and silence uh in the given day and recognize that. I think those are the biggest impactful things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:48

Love that. Thank you, Rob. Absolutely. Appreciate it. All of our listeners, um, we'll see you guys on the other side.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:55

Awesome.