The Hidden Meaning Behind Disengagement: It's Human Data, Not a Flaw

Unlock the secret to transforming disengagement in education before it becomes a crisis. Dr. Michelle Singh challenges how we interpret student and teacher withdrawal — revealing that disengagement isn't a flaw, but a vital human signal demanding urgent attention. Are your current responses doing more harm than good? Discover how shifting from blame to understanding can revolutionize your approach to motivation and well-being in schools.

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Transcript

Jessica Pack (00:00)
we're just going to pick up at our particular spot.

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (00:04)
No problem, sounds good.

Jessica Pack (00:07)
Joining us today is one of our fellow ASCD ISTE community leaders, Dr. Michelle Singh. Thank you so much for being here today. Could you introduce yourself for listeners, please, and talk a little bit about your educational context?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (00:21)
Absolutely. Hey everyone. My name is Dr. Michelle Shanda Singh. am, I'm in Miami, Florida, sunny Miami, Florida. Sorry for the folks that are in the North. I always have to apologize because of the weather. Whenever I'm, I'm in conversations with, with folks all over. I am originally from Jamaica. I've lived in Miami most of my life now. And I spent, I'm in education still, but I spent 15 years in one of the largest

public schools in the country, all the way from ⁓ a secondary language arts teacher. So I coined myself a forever ELA teacher, because you just don't get rid of that, no matter where you are and what you do. And ⁓ I was also a district leader in the county. And I'm a professor of teaching and learning currently and an education consultant. So I design, training, and development, and curriculum all around creating safe spaces, culturally responsive spaces, equitable spaces for learners.

of all types. Yeah, that's it. That's a bit about me.

Georgia Terlaje (01:20)
Well,

so glad to have you with us today. We always like to start out with guests with your origin story working with ITSD, ASCD community leaders. So how did you become involved with ITSD and ASCD?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (01:37)
So I became involved with ISTE AACD when I was at the district level in the school system. And I actually, for the very first time, submitted to present at a conference. And I was accepted to present at that time it was the ISTE conference. And that was my first time being a big girl, traveling by myself, going to Texas from Florida. I'd never solo traveled before. And...

It was a big deal for me because I was doing something on my own and I was doing it. You know, I had sought out this opportunity myself and it wasn't attached to anyone but Michelle. And so that was my introduction into ISTE. And ever since then, I've shared and presented and attended conferences and, you know, been a community leader, played lots of different roles in the organization. I'm, that's, that's just

What it's been that was that that was probably about I would say about ten years ago That's when that journey started

Jessica Pack (02:47)
That's so awesome. Thank you so much. We're really excited to talk with you about disengagement today. You frame it as human data rather than as a failure or a flaw. And we're wondering if you could talk a little bit about what we in education are sort of missing when we label disengagement as a motivation problem instead of as like a signal. And what kind of shift should we be making as we reframe that?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (03:10)
huh.

Absolutely. So I think one of the biggest things we miss, and it's not just in education, I just think it's in any system or organization, I think it's, or institution, I think we miss the humanity piece. We label disengagement oftentimes as a motivation problem. And what that is saying underneath it all is that there's something wrong with the person.

that kind of framing, let's be honest, it lets the system off of the hook. So the person is to blame, not the conditions or the system that they're in, right? And so I know personally for me, and I've written about this, ⁓ I've written about it in NASCD, ISTE, ⁓ in an article where I left teaching, but as a black woman, as an immigrant, as someone who spent over two decades in systems,

I've seen how disengagement shows up again and again, it's not the apathy that we associate it with. It's really communication. And it's whether it's the student saying, or even feeling or thinking, this does not make sense for me. Or if it's that adult in a system saying, if I show up fully here, it's going to cost me something. Right?

And so that's why I think it is, we're letting the system off the hook and we're putting the blame where it should not be. And that's why we have to look at the human data that it's given us. And that's where we miss that humanity piece a lot. So we have to shift, have to reframe that disengagement and we have to start asking questions and shift the questions from, does that person

How do we get them to perform more or how do get that student to to work harder? We should start asking questions like Well, what is the conditions that's causing them to You know withdraw What is that condition? What is what's in what is in that environment? What is that environment asking them to actually endure? So I think that's the that's the shift. Yeah

Georgia Terlaje (05:43)
I think those are, that's all really a good point because we haven't really fixed things along those lines even before COVID. So you would think people would be like, okay, we're doing something that's not working, we need to change. So along those lines, in schools and organizations, disengagement, it often triggers quick fixes or compliance measures. What does it look like to slow down and listen to disengagement? And why is that difficult for leaders to do?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (06:12)
gosh, that's a good question. What does it look like to slow down? Well, I think I'm a call this out again. And I'm going to say that I don't think that systems are designed to listen. I think that the systems are designed to correct when things are not performing, when things are not producing, that the systems are not designed to protect the human behind it, right? They're not designed for the inner work, the inner being of the human they're designed for.

what the human is putting out the output. And when that disengagement shows up, the instinct is usually, okay, let's fix this problem. The instinct is usually, ⁓ can we put in place to fix this problem? What new initiatives, what new programs, what new incentives, what are some new rules that we can put in place? What are some new shiny things that we can use to achieve these results, right?

And yeah, I'm as a leader, I get that. That's what we go to automatically, right? Because we are feeling the pressure around outcomes, around scores and accountability, and also around, you know, what we look like, the optics around what our thing looks like that we are leading, right? But I think that we have to slow down to listen to the disengagement and that looks different.

that looks like, again, we have to look at what is underneath it. Instead of jumping to like, how are we gonna fix this thing? We gotta ask like, what's underneath thing that's causing the disruption, that's causing the withdrawal, that's causing this person to get quiet or even get compliant, right? So I think that like to answer your question, slowing down looks like listening.

Slowing down looks like listening. ⁓ Because a lot of people from what the research, from what my research and just my years, what it's told us that disengagement is self-protection. So what is in the environment that's causing me to protect myself? We gotta pause and listen.

Jessica Pack (08:27)
just sort of tangentially, whose disengagement do you feel like gets noticed and, well, let me start over. Whose disengagement gets noticed and whose sort of gets ignored? I'm thinking about power and identity and positionality and how that can maybe influence the signals that are taken seriously in education and the ones that are maybe sidelined. Could you speak about that?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (08:34)
Hehehehe

Yes.

I

100 % agree with you. I definitely think that not all disengagement is interpreted the same way and that it's kind of filtered through the lens of identity and power and positionality, just like you said, right? Who you are, how you speak, even how you show emotion, right? I've often heard, calm down. I'm not calm, I'm sharing my passion. But how I...

how I share my passion is different how someone else's share their passion, but I'm the one that's told to calm down, right? So all of that, all of that, that positionality, that power, that identity, all of that shapes whether disengagement is treated, I think, as data or if it's dismissed or even labeled a problem, right? ⁓ Think about classrooms, right? Students who kind of hold that credibility

the academic credibility or even like a social credibility, they're kind of given the benefit of the doubt when they may get quiet, when that high achieving student puts their head down or is not as responsive, the teachers normally ask, and again, guilty of doing this, spent 20 years in the system, are you okay? And then we loop lots of people in because we notice something in this particular type of student.

But if it's a student who's already been labeled as, say, challenging and they kind of disengage in the same way, whether it's, you know, head down, withdrawn, missing assignments, refusing to participate. Well, that behavior kind of looked at differently. It's looked at as lack of effort or it's looked at as defiance. And then that response is from the person in part from the adult shifts from.

What's wrong to a consequence ultimately? Right? So yes, to answer your question, I do believe that ⁓ power, identity, positionality, all of that influence how disengagement is interpreted. It is not interpreted the same way. Some people's disengagement gets framed a different way than others. There are consequences for some and there's curiosity for others.

Georgia Terlaje (11:18)
I 100 % agree. And I think like what you were mentioning even just with your enthusiasm for things sometimes being misinterpreted, I think that piece of culturally responsive teaching and understanding that every culture has a different way of coming to the table. like you said, I think we tend to put students teach, like everyone in boxes of this is the way we all have to be and that's just not life.

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (11:47)
Mm-hmm.

Georgia Terlaje (11:48)
Basically. So

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (11:49)
Yeah.

Georgia Terlaje (11:49)
you talk, in your work you talk about responding with clarity, empathy, and better design. Can you unpack what better design means in this context, especially for learning environments that were not built for today's learners in mind?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (11:55)
Yeah.

Absolutely. So yeah, when I talk about better design, I'm not talking about like the most technology equipped kind of classroom or environment or like the prettiest classroom or adding more, you know, decorations or tools. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about ⁓ designing environments for learning that actually match how human beings learn, but also how they live today.

Right? we are, one of the things that I like to start with is clarity. I think better design starts with clarity. you know, sure it's about the expectations being clear. We know that as educators, right? We know that the expectations are clear. Our students, know, understanding what it is that they're supposed to do. But I think there's another layer of that.

where are students having to decode invisible rules that we don't even know exist, right? Maybe there things in the assignment instructions and background knowledge that has not yet been kind of brought in, or the grading systems and the rubrics and the speed over understanding, like those kind of things, those kind of like invisible rules that they have to go up against, right? And it's not just that piece of it.

something that's truly, for me, this is like the first thing. ⁓ It's kind of the foundation for me. It's always about clarity when it comes to ourselves, right? If we are not aware of our own beliefs and our assumptions, because we carry them into every environment that we're in. And these, you know,

These assumptions and these things that we carry and that we hold and these beliefs, they come from what we were taught in our families, what society teaches us, what our cultures teach us. And they influence what we think respect may look like. These are just some examples, right? What respect may look like. Even what success looks like. Even what a good learner is supposed to look like and what effort is supposed to look like and what does intelligence looks like, right? And so better design starts with clarity.

around all of those things. We have to unpack all of those things. And I think we have to start with ourselves. We have to ask, what do I interpret as good or problematic in my classroom? And then design for that, design for those things. I ⁓ feel like when students, and even as adults, when we feel like we're being evaluated against these unspoken

rules and standards and codes. Hey, that's where disengagement kind of creeps in. Because if I don't understand it and I feel like I'm being evaluated and being judged, I'm going to protect myself. And I say disengagement is self-protection. So we have to make the invisible visible. And it starts with ourselves. Yeah.

Jessica Pack (15:16)
I like that you're talking about the adults as well and how we see ourselves and how we're interacting. ⁓ Many educators are deeply disengaged and burned out right now. You said there's a returning sort of emphasis on increasing our academic scores and showing gains. it's kind of like all of the work on SEL throughout the pandemic is now being, you

sidelined a little bit, the work on culturally responsive teaching being sidelined a little bit in favor of all the scores and things. ⁓ But I guess I'm wondering how school leaders or district leaders can kind of differentiate between disengagement signals like that harm versus disengagement that signals like a healthy resistance or boundary setting within that institution.

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (15:44)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think that's such a great question because I think if we're not careful, you know, we're not careful, we're gonna misread what the disengagement is telling us. And we're gonna sometimes misread like that protection and even that survival as a problem, right? We know, we're in it. We know that we are exhausted and it's not because we don't care, right?

We have been caring without support forever. And disengagement is not harm. It's not signaling harm in those ways. ⁓ It's the teacher kind of getting to the point, and because I've been there, getting to the point where that teacher is like, I just can't keep pouring from an empty cup. Like, I don't have nothing left.

don't have nothing for my family. I don't even have nothing for myself. And I think when it gets to that point, that's when boundaries step in for that individual. And then they may stop volunteering and being on all those extra things. No more extra committees. They'll probably shut their computer off at a certain time. So they're not answering the emails late at night. They may not be as enthusiastic.

about doing things and, but they're still doing what they need to do. Been there, done that. I did everything that I needed to do, but I wasn't going above and beyond, right? And I think that gets labeled as disengagement when that's actually boundary setting. So what is that telling, what data, what human data is that giving the leader for that leader to pay attention to, right? I think that needs to be considered. And I think when we're looking at the disengagement that

signals harm, I think that looks different. I think that is when that individual becomes numb, right? That individual is isolated, isolating themselves. There's a loss of connection to people and purpose. And you know, that comes from so much building up, building up, building up, feeling unseen, feeling unsafe, feeling violated, feeling stuck where your values, your capacity, none of that stuff is.

is considered and ⁓ I think that's when that type of disengagement signals harm. When it gets to that point of numbness and isolation, that's when we're like in the burnout stages. That is something that needs to be addressed because then you'll have people chucking up the deuces, leaving, which is what we're seeing, right? And so I think...

I think leaders need to look at, again, what are the things that are happening? ⁓ What's the human data telling us that this individual is going through or doing? And instead of thinking of how you get more out of the person, look at the conditions around what that person is experiencing and ask.

What can I do so that this person feels like themselves again, themselves again? What can I do to make sure that this person feels whole, right? Again, you talk about social emotional learning, the whole child, well, what about the whole teacher? Right? And so, yeah.

Georgia Terlaje (19:36)
Amen. Seriously, it's like just

keep grinding, grinding, grinding. I was in the system for 36 years and ⁓ I look back, I honestly don't know how I did it really now, like on the other side, just doing what I love. But yeah, I think you're spot on. So thinking of this idea of like disengagement as communications, what?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (19:45)
Yes.

Ooh, bless you. ⁓

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Georgia Terlaje (20:04)
And we could look at it two parts, one for staff and teachers, one for students. What are some questions or ways that leaders can, ⁓ what can they ask before they attempt to reengage someone? Like really particular things, like if a leader or a teacher just doesn't really know where to start, what are some ways that you offer them to like try to reengage their student or their staff?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (20:21)
Yeah.

Yeah, of course, you know, it's important. The first thing I'll say is to try to understand before responding. That's the first thing, understanding before responding. And the question that I always keep going back to is, what is this environment? are the conditions in this environment asking that individual to tolerate?

Right? ⁓ Because there is some kind of mismatch there between what that individual's values or capacity or safety is and what that environment is requiring of them. So what is this environment asking this person to tolerate that is causing them to withdraw and self-protect? ⁓ I think another good question to ask is,

⁓ how do we actually make it safe for this individual to re-enter and feel safe? So from experience, right, being in lots of systems, it could look like maybe for this adult or even this student, like they felt ignored, their feedback was ignored or dismissed, or they were penalized for saying something, or...

Just the communication was not valued or the actions or the output were not valued in so that's when that Disengagement happened. So how can you build that trust back up for them? How can you make it so that that person feels safe to reenter and and come back? I Think you have you have to understand what happened that caused him to disengage and now what can I do to build that trust again? What needs to change so that engage that that?

re-engagement or just the engagement at all makes sense for the persons who are disengaged. I think those are the questions. So what's in the environment? What is it asking the people to tolerate? What can I do to make the environment feel safe again? What needs to change so that this engagement makes sense for this person to come back?

Jessica Pack (22:42)
Where are the limits of empathy when there's no real structural change or redesign possible? I guess I'm just wondering, maybe what are some small and meaningful shifts that leaders or teachers can make to start treating disengagement as an insight rather than insubordination?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (23:06)
Mm-hmm. I like that insight instead of insubordinate. Yeah, I think that

Jessica Pack (23:12)
In subordination, yeah.

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (23:20)
It goes back to how you're interpreting, how you're interpreting what you're seeing and what's happening around you. ⁓ Yes, empathy is great. You know, we need empathy, but I think that empathy without change, without actual action is not enough, right? And I think that's where that design comes in that we spoke about earlier, the better design.

I think that's when we have to start looking at what's in the environment. You know, do we need to redesign the schedules? Do we need to have better feedback loops and feedback systems in place? What do we need to do to support the learning experiences? You know, we need to look at how we have to redesign the spaces, the experiences so that the person feels safe, that student or that adult.

not just the empathy part because empathy needs the action. It has to be both. So it go back to the design part and asking those questions because those questions will tell you what you need to redesign.

Georgia Terlaje (24:37)
I think

that is so important because I know teachers that I talk to and work with now in this space, get a lot of, I hear what you're saying, like it's unsafe in the classroom, but they don't necessarily get some way to change what's going on. It's just, you'll be okay, I understand what's happening and that's really not, that's not useful at a certain point. You wanna be understood, but then you're ready.

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (25:04)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Georgia Terlaje (25:06)
you want that action piece. ⁓ I feel like we could talk about this forever, because I know this is someplace that is ⁓ part of my heart, and I know Jessica's heart too. ⁓ But before we let you go, ⁓ where could listeners connect with you to continue this conversation?

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (25:23)
⁓ yes, it's simple. Connectwithmichelle.com. I know I grabbed that domain. I was like, yes, God was looking out for me because it was open and ready. Connectwithmichelle.com. That's Michelle with two Ls. So connectwithmichelle.com and we will be connected once you go there and put your information and then you'll see how we can stay.

stay engaged with each other. ⁓ I'm in Miami, Florida, like I said, I have some live, cool live events that I'm doing this year. had my first one in January, two weeks ago, and I do lots of virtual events as well. So would love to connect and engage with you all and continue this much, much needed conversation about seeing disengagement differently ultimately. Cause this is not something for me as an educator of 20 years, a lot of the things that I'm realizing now,

I'm learning now and I've been in education 20 years.

Jessica Pack (26:24)
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time, your expertise. I know that listeners are going to have a lot to think about after this episode and they absolutely I can I can anticipate they will be reaching out to you to keep the conversation going. Well, that wraps up this episode of the Edge podcast. We hope you had a great time. My name is Jessica and you can find me on LinkedIn at Jessica Pak or at Pakwoman208 on X and Instagram.

Georgia Terlaje (26:52)
And I'm Georgia Turlaji and you can find me at Georgia Turlaji on X and Blue Sky and both of us on StorytellingSavesTheWorld.com.

Jessica Pack (27:01)
On behalf of everyone at ISTE and ASCD's The Edge podcast, remember to keep exploring your passion, fostering your creativity, and continue taking risks, all things that will bring you to the edge.

Georgia Terlaje (27:17)
Yay, that was great.

Dr. Michelle Chanda Singh (27:18)
Very cool. Very cool

intro and outro.