Kat Brown: ADHD is NOT a bloody trend! Part 1

They say you should never meet your heroes, but this episode disproves that theory! I could talk to Kat Brown ALL DAY LONG, and I did! Which is why, instead of losing any of the absolute GOLD late discovered ADHD Author Kat shared with me, I decided to make it a two parter! The second and final instalment will be out tomorrow...

Kat is the Author of 'It's Not A Bloody Trend: Understanding Life as an ADHD Adult' and 'No One Talks About This Stuff: Twenty-Two Stories of Almost Parenthood', both are subjects extremely close to my heart.  This interview/chinwag delves into both of the book topics; the deep grief and hard work that goes into accepting both the realities of a lifelong neurodevelopmental condition and infertility... BUT we have some proper giggles/cackles along the way!

Exploring Kat's battles with commonly co-occurring conditions of ADHD, to  bullying, mysogyny, the bloody media(!) and MORE! This is such an incredible conversation I'm extremely lucky, grateful and excited to be sharing... and I'm even more all-of-the-above to be collaborating TWICE this week in real life with this ABSOLUTE BLOODY LEGEND at the last ADHD AF Alien Nation show and Flackstock Festival THANK YOU SO MUCH KAT! And enormous congratulations to Cybil, the winner of 4th place in 'the prettiest bitch' category! :) 

TRIGGER WARNING: Contains swearing and mentions of: alcoholism, addiction, self harm, suicide, relationship struggles, anxiety, depression, premature death, education struggles, bullying, BED. Bulimia, Trauma, IVF struggles, infertility and almost parenthood, school trauma, grief, race  and gender discrimination, Identity struggles of being mixed race, mysogyny, the patriarchy, ableism, dangerous media.

If you are in need of support YOU ARE NOT ALONE! There is immediate help out there so please REACH OUT

You can apply to be part of ADHDAF Emporium: an online marketplace supporting neurodivergent makers and small creative businesses HERE
If you would like to connect online you can join the Patreon Membership HERE and grab a remaining ticket to connect in real life HERE

Thank you to Sessionz for editing and jingle and an enormous THANK YOU to the Planet ADHDAF Community Members for keeping this Podcast going for over 2 YEARS so that other literally like-minded legends can benefit from these crucial conversations (also making this the longest job I've ever had!) xx

If you've enjoyed this episode please share, review, hit those stars... all help others gain information, validation & lols.
I REALLY appreciate your support!
SELF DIAGNOSIS IS VALID & ADHD IS NOT A BLOODY TREND!
Big love
Laura

Transcript

 Okay, so it's about four hours later at night than I thought it was, and that is why I am whispering, because Sleeping Beauty is in his slumbers, so I better not wake him. So I'm talking very quietly, but even whisper as I might, my voice could never sound as enticing as my next guest, who, not only is she not afraid to use it, but my gosh, she has a lot to say, and that is in no way.

Any kind of slur, because um, I can talk a fair bit. And um, Cat Brown actually has a lot of really useful things to say. And very, very interesting things to say. And very, very funny things to say. That is why I'm I've not cut really any of this out, or who am I kidding? My editor, Sessions Services, we decided to turn it into a two parter because there is just so much in this episode.

It's like a interview chinwag hybrid, just full of pearls and joy and lols and I'm so so grateful to Kat. So grateful, who is just an absolute legend. So she is the author of Is Not a Bloody Trend? Understanding life as an ADHD adult and no one talks about this stuff. So I will leave you with Kat's incredible voice and  Yeah, be back with part two tomorrow. 

Bye! 

Though blatantly obvious, the late discovery, diagnosis and treatment at 38 for severe combined type ADHD in 2022 not only improved, but genuinely saved my life, which I have since dedicated to fighting for change amidst the global ADHD crisis. As the acronym suggests, I swear like a sailor, and each episode will contain sensitive subject matter, so please always read the description before diving in, where you will also find a link to resources for support.

These crucial conversations with experts by lived experience are shared to inform, validate, shame, eradicate, and unite the ADHD community, with a fair few laughs along the way. I've been labeled too much all my life, but finally, I celebrate my too muchness, and use my justice sensitivity to let the world know that ADHD presents differently in each individual.

Self diagnosis is valid, and that ADHD is not a trend. ADHD is real. And I want all ADHDers of all genders to know, you are not alone. The leopard is a symbol of Aberdeen, Scotland, where this podcast began. It also symbolises bravery, the reclaiming of power, and I'm a total hun. So Leopard Printers become the uniform of the ADHD AF community, uniting to support each other and push for change, which together we can make happen.

We are the Leopard. Hear us roar.  I'm Laura and I am ADHD AF. 

So let's dive in. Could you tell me your name please?  My name's Kat Brown. I live in South London. I'm a Scorpio. And I'm really happy to be here.  It's lovely to see you gorgeous girl. for having me. so much for being here. Do you know what? How has it got this far into this whole safari and I've never asked anybody  what their star sign is.

I bloody love Scorpios. My husband's a Scorpio. Your occupation. Oh God. I mean, sorry, positive, lovely, lovely response. Great. Rather than just  on my passport, I say I'm a writer on Instagram. I probably changed my bio about 95 times a week to spending on how self conscious I'm feeling. The reality is, is I'm probably a dilettante, like a Swiss army knife.

I've got lots of different fastenings. Like we all, we all do and have in different ways. So I'm a freelance writer, I'm an editor, I do social media consultancy, I do copywriting, all sorts of different elements of that. And then as of this year, I'm also a published author! Hurrah! Yeah you are! Oh my goodness, we're gonna dive into that in a minute.

Okay, so what is your favourite film? Grease 2, 100%. Super amazing.  It's Michelle Pfeiffer, isn't it? It's all about Michelle Pfeiffer. It's Michelle Thiver. It's also to do with the fact that it's probably the only film set in a school where they are all completely realistic about the fact that they're all played by like 30 year olds. 

The songs are great. It's so camp. I can do an amazing rendition of reproduction at karaoke doing all the voices. It's fabulous. Oh my god, I think that needs to happen in Brighton or at Flagstock or both!  Oh my gosh, I love it. Honestly, that was one of my favourite films, it was brilliant. Favourite animal?

Dog, absolutely. So many varieties. And some are basically cats as well. Absolutely. Do you have a dog? I do. I've got Sybil. She is, if I just wiggle my computer around, having a little slumber on the sofa over there. Oh, Sybil is good.  Are you a dopamine dresser or calming neutrals? I already know the answer to that.

Well, ah, so on a really good day and on an average day, I'm definitely a dopamine dresser. I love pattern. I love colour. I love high saturation. I love contrast. And then if I'm feeling really miserable, it'll just be. whatever is sort of blurghy and comfortable in my cupboards and then it's almost dressing for invisibility sometimes  even though like being six foot one and a redhead it is almost impossible to be invisible but  It is kind of amazing how people will just leave you alone if you are sort of dressed like you've just fallen into pyjamas.

Exactly. Yeah. How funny. Well, one thing I can say is you're definitely into dopamine decor. We've got these clashing patterned wallpapers that are just absolutely brilliant because they're animals and we are actually on safari. And might I add, That green behind you is the same green as my living room.

Well, great taste.  Love the wallpaper. Okay, so childhood nickname.  Oh God, they were awful. Beaks was one, quite affectionately. That was short for ginger beacon. Robo Gob, after I broke my teeth in my first year of secondary school and the NHS put them back together with a paperclip. I did think that was really funny and quite clever, but  When you're 10, it's not funny or clever because you're like, Oh God, gotta go to school again.

Everybody thinks I'm lame. Good morning. Did you feel like you were bullied then? Oh, I was, I was bullied.  But the thing is, is I grew up reading so many different types of books that I'd basically been indoctrinated by a whole different swathe of like 50 year old female writers from  previously. And so I knew that all the kids at school were being like really childish and being dickheads. 

You know, there's nothing you as a 10 or 11 year old child can do about that because you've got like the next minimum five years of dealing with it. Yeah, 100%. I was called Squeak because of my voice and it's funny because obviously to now be using my voice all the time, it's taken a while to settle into that.

You don't realize how much these things, because it seems so nothing like, Oh, you've got a squeaky little voice. And it's like, Oh, then here I am at 41, still embarrassed about it. What city in the world are you most like?  Such a gorgeous question. I'd love to say Berlin, probably not. But just because Berlin is probably the most everything all at once city that I've ever been to in my life.

I remember going there. God, when I was at university, and me and my friends went freeganing, which is basically like skip jumping. And so we went in and got loads of food that had just been dumped, sort of half an hour, an hour previously, and then went off and had a house party. I sang over some techno tracks in somebody's like, random studio.

Yes, this is me, Downton Abbey Queen, uh,  singing away. Um, literally nobody else in my family speaks like this. I don't know where it came from. I can only assume television. Um,  it's, it's a completely beautiful city. It's like completely decrepit in some areas and then like, mind bendingly beautiful and filled with nature and gorgeous parks and zoos.

It's very mindful of its history as well. So in terms of just sheer everything, everywhere, all of the things, I would say, yeah, I'd say that. Sadly, my German is basically limited to I've lost my bra and slowly please, I'm a stranger here. Um, but it's a cracking city.  I love it. I think that's very fitting.

Planning, love it or loathe it. Oh, absolutely both. I need planning. I am wedded to planning. Everything goes in my calendar with like as many alerts and as it possibly can be. Birthdays are like a week in advance and two days in advance. So at least I have two times to, to potentially forget who I'm supposed to be sending stuff to. 

lists, open notebooks, as opposed to closed notebooks, things that you can just rip the top page off. But again, that entirely depends on, on where I am emotionally and in my cycle as well. And I'm 41 now and my grandmother went through menopause very early. My mom, not at all early, but I've definitely been noticing symptoms for the last three or so years and they've really started to hit up now.

So, you know, I can try and make plans with the best will in the world, but sometimes I just won't have the capacity to carry them out. So it sort of feels really swings and roundabouts, but yeah, I definitely need to plan. A hundred percent. So are you having any treatment for your menopausal symptoms?  So I found, because I'm a relentless Googler, and I found this fabulous clinic at the Maudsley in South London, not too far away from where I live, which is a female hormone clinic for people who have either neurodivergent conditions or, or other things, because obviously hormones play such a massive factor in the ramping up and re ramping up of symptoms around times of hormonal change, so puberty, pregnancy. 

postpartum perimenopause. So many P's, but I went on that waiting list last September October, and I should get to the top like this September October. So I've had my intake interview, and there are some interesting suggestions as to what could help, because in addition to suggestions around HRT, they also can prescribe Things that I've literally only read about in the medical literature.

So guanfacine was one,  bupropramine, oh god, I've completely  Damn it. That's another one that I'm gonna have to Google because I can't remember that off the top of my head I don't even think I can say it if it was in front of me I know, exactly  Bupropion, that's it. Sorry. So that is an antidepressant that also has helpful ADHD impact But that can really interact with other medication And then Guanfacin is actually another one of those incredibly helpful, I think, blood pressure meds.

And over here it's licensed for use on the NHS with children only. But America and Canada have been using it with adults very successfully because it's incredibly good for treating emotional dysregulation. What we sort of popularize as RSD.  Can you get me some please? This is amazing! What an amazing facility!

I mean, obviously there's a wait, but  That's fantastic that it's coming around. I look forward to hearing more about that. That's incredible. Yeah, I just, speaking of waiting lists, it's really funny because on Monday, I got a phone call from ADHD Norwich saying that my name had come up and was I still wanting to go ahead with my NHS assessment.

So that's five, so that's five years. That's five years. Yeah. I told you this, didn't I, that I originally went private to get my diagnosis using my tax savings because I had no work at the time. Because the NHS had said that the waiting list for an assessment for me would be a year. And I had already, you know, And very gratefully gone through the NHS for treatment for binge eating disorder and IVF.

And I just, I was just like, I can't do any waiting lists. I want to get to the finish line. This is the thing that's going to fix me. I'm going to be a completely different person afterwards. Lol.  And I was literally, I had just started like working on, um, on writing the book on doing all the research or I've done loads of research, but doing all the interviews.

And I got the phone call saying, Oh, You've reached the top of the waiting list. And that was three years after I'd gone on it. And I didn't realize that I was still on it because I'd obviously updated my GP. I  mean, I'm just absolutely flabbergasted, well not flabbergasted, I mean three years is absolutely sadly a blink in the eye in terms of what waiting lists can be in the UK.

But simply in terms of like, I would have been there, sitting there every day going, it's been a year now, any day now, and just doing that for two years more. I know I wouldn't, I wouldn't be here. I know that. If I, if I'd have, if I'd have not had the very, very lucky privilege. of, of finding that I had that access to private diagnosis through my husband's work.

At  that point in time, I don't think I would be here, genuinely. Yeah. It's really scary, isn't it? And to sit here like five, how many years is it? Two years I've been diagnosed now. I just sat there like, wow, it actually happened. Because the same as you, I updated my GP, but I've moved. So obviously somewhere along the line, the message didn't get there.

It was very, very surreal. Anyway, anyway, we digress. We digress. So.  We know now that you are diagnosed with ADHD. What kind of diagnosis do you have? Is it  combined? Like 85 percent of adults diagnosed with ADHD. And obviously that was late. So how many years ago was this?  I was 37 when I was diagnosed and I'm 41 now.

So I was diagnosed, yeah, about, about four years ago.  And did you find it easy or traumatic? I had my private assessment and then obviously all the notes went off to parents, husband, that sort of thing. And I had to have an additional test called a QB check, cha ching, because my dad didn't recognise the symptoms in me as a kid.

And the QB check came back and they were like, Oh yeah, this is, this is, as it, as it often is, you know, it's not, you're not like a hundred percent ADHD or anything like that, but it's, it's incredibly conclusive results.  But so then I started trying meds and all that sort of stuff. So again, cough over more money, all that sort of thing.

And realizing actually that the myth of the magic pill was just that, because it would be, different types of pills, some of which gave me, you know, quite difficult side effects. And it was sort of, that took quite a long time before we found a structure, and it definitely was a structure for me rather than just a pill, to sort of Get everything feeling a little bit more stable, but when I reached the top of that NHS waiting list, part of me was like, Oh, maybe I should get re diagnosed on the NHS because then I'll just be brought within the system.

And then immediately afterwards that was followed by like, don't be so selfish. You know, there's somebody else out there who hasn't had any kind of assessment and he really flipping needs it. And, I mean, I was horrified, and this is how naive I am, even after, and that was three, four years of ADHD research by that point, when I was speaking to Annabelle, one of the interviewees for my book about self medication, was the reason why she founded her 12 step groups for people, specifically, who are neurodivergent, was because after getting her diagnosis, she faced an additional two year waiting list to be medicated.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That blew my mind. It was like, but that is why people are getting assessed. Yeah. That is why we want to be assessed because then we can access treatment. We can access the thing that will fundamentally make a difference. One of the things that is, you know, monumentally important for reducing the risk of flipping suicide in people with untreated ADHD.

It made me so cold that I almost didn't have time to be angry.  But I've been incredibly angry a lot since then, and that has nothing to do with perimenopause. Yeah, oh gosh, I hear you. I was talking about this in a previous episode, it's like, The rage is the rage about the injustice that has propelled me forward.

Anyway, do you feel that that's been your driving force as well?  To say that I'm driven by rage, Laura, would be, uh, slightly accurate. Um, I do, like in, in public work, I really try to be. Positive and encouraging and optimistic because I think it's, it's like that thing you catch more flies with honey than vinegar  and part of my work as a, as a journalist over the years as I've been, and I swear to God, they introduced me as self proclaimed feminist cat brown on LBC radio.

So I'd usually get rung up when they needed somebody to come along and be the voice of feminism, Laura,  for various, like, ludicrous stories. So I got very used to talking to, for example, Nick Ferrari, about really, like, stupid, insulting stories that had popped up in the papers. And just to basically, you know, Mary Poppins it along.

So not being like, oh, you know, you're so funny, you're so clever, but just like, this is completely ridiculous. And we just need to face up to the fact that it is. And that sort of, you know, little boy pointing out the Emperor's new clothes element, which I think we need rather than just  taking things so incredibly seriously, when some things are stupid and dangerous enough that they don't deserve to be taken seriously.

Oh gosh, absolutely. Do you know what? It's so funny because my feeling has always been that there is nothing that this world, well it's not nothing, but it's right up there in the most hated, is an angry woman. It's not okay to be an angry woman and I know for myself there just came a point where I, I literally, It's that expression, isn't it?

It's like, if you're not angry, you're not, you're not paying attention, whatever the expression is, right? And I remember I sat up bolt upright one day and just went,  Hang on a fucking minute! Like, I'm absolutely raging about loads of stuff. And then realizing that that is not really okay. You can use that, but if you come across as an angry or aggressive person.

that will be absolutely not okay for a woman. I've even seen myself in interviews where I get annoyed and even judged myself like, Oh God, state of it. Mind your necking is this internalized misogyny and it's, it's absolutely everywhere. It's terrifying. It's really difficult. I mean, also we desperately need to acknowledge that, you know, we both have the privilege of being white middle class women and the, the stereotype of the angry black woman is even more.

frustrating because it's like you literally cannot even lift an eyebrow. You can't do anything other than be measured. Delicate. I listened to a fabulous podcast between mini driver and Viola Davies recently. It's an old one from like two, three years ago. And she was saying exactly that about drama school and in her career.

Yeah. just there, there is no room for missteps. But again, when, when we are talking about like anything to do with misogyny or, you know, the awful, awful portrayals of ADHD and other invisible conditions, other invisible identities, in some cases, in some visible, there is no room for anger because the anger needs to come across in a way that isn't going to threaten other people.

Alice able.  Yeah, palatable. And that's where humor comes in, I think, fantastically. I see this so much on Twitter as well. Um, when, when we're speaking, it's the day that the Rishi Sunak interview that he had to rush back from the D Day celebrations is coming out. And he's done this absolutely, unbelievably stupid, idiotic line about saying that the thing that he went without as a child was Sky TV.

And it's like, Rishi, babe, what an incredibly out of touch thing to say. But again, the jokes about it on Twitter are, I mean, poor Rishi Nodishi is one of my favorites. But again, those sorts of things have the cut through. Whereby the angry tweets from anonymous accounts with not many followers going, yeah, but you know, that's typical about under, you know, people who've gone to private school and all that sort of stuff.

And you know, what about the, what about society? That sort of stuff we know, but for anything to have cut through, there needs to be something that lifts people a bit and makes them curious rather than shut them down. down than just shut down. Yeah. Because also humor unites us. It's not so polarizing as well.

I think this, and I think that it's like, whatever you think in some form, you might be able to have a laugh somewhere in the middle. And I think, you know, it's so funny because that is exactly what I've been trying to do with the shows. And a lot of what I do in this space is that, you know, I know that for me personally, As ADHDers, we relate.

So you tell a story, I'll tell a story. We're saying, I get you, I understand. And so, with a lot of people having heard my story or hearing me speak on the regular, it means that they relate, and so they will tell me back their stories. The problem is, is that I then can't carry them all, because I'm not trained or emotionally equipped.

So I try to find a way that I can connect with people and connect people together in a space where I can do the things that I can do. I've always done festivals and fun stuff and all the rest of it. And it is the thing in the middle that unites us all. I think it's really, really powerful humor. And it also means I don't drown in it all and that I can have some fun in it. 

Do you know what? There's one other thing that I wanted to say, and this isn't anything to pull you up on. It's just an interesting thing. Is that, so I'm actually mixed race, but I Oh yeah. I'm sorry for taking me No, no, no, no. My face value, no, no, no, because it's, I look, I look far more Irish than I do Caribbean, but I'm, I'm mixed race.

And it's a really, really interesting thing that you said because it's about, you said something about invisible identities. That was the one that struck with me. I think it's such an interesting thing to be mixed race across the board because. Where do you sit in any of it? How do you explain to anybody?

You know, there's lots of things like cultural appropriation, which culture am I appropriating? Which one is my own? Which one is, you know, and I think it's really, really interesting. But again, I do have that privilege of appearing to be. Caucasian, British, that's it. You know, it's, it's a really, really interesting thing.

So yeah, thank you for saying that because I just thought that was absolutely fascinating. I swear to God, Kat, we're going to be here for four hours.  Well, I'm also really sorry for just completely dismissing part of your identity and sweeping you in. But how would you know? Like, how would anybody know?

And nobody knows. It's how we appear, how we come across, how we speak, the color of our skin, everything. I think it's fascinating. I think it's a really fascinating thing. I'm not at all offended. You don't need to feel bad at all. It's also something that I've heard you speak about before and I've just completely bloody forgotten because my memory is that of a goldfish crossed for the sieve.

I wonder why that would be. 

What led you to suspect that you have ADHD?  I saw a wonderful description of it recently, which was somebody who'd recently been diagnosed as autistic, saying that they just always felt, they just couldn't quite describe it, but they just sort of felt this qualitative unease, like all the time. And that was something that I really felt, even though I grew up with all my needs met physically, everything else, I was, you know, very well looked after.

But I just sort of always felt other in a way that couldn't be described by the fact that I'm incredibly tall, I've got red hair, I got moved up a year at school when I was seven, I had epilepsy, all of those sorts of things. There was just something else that I couldn't put my finger on. And throughout the years, I got treated but never diagnosed with depression, insomnia, anxiety.

as I mentioned briefly earlier, binge eating disorder, quite a lot of just problems that I just sort of found really stopped me being able to feel like a fully rounded human being. I mean, obviously,  the quest to be or feel like a fully human being as, you know, one that we're all on. But I just always felt that friends and colleagues managed to get on with life without some of the challenges that just seemed to dog me a bit.

And then in a way that will obviously infuriate anybody who doesn't care for self diagnosis, even though I absolutely self diagnosed as needing a hip replacement. Because my brain kept dislocating. And so I went to the doctor. I saw a tweet that somebody I really love and actually ended up dedicating the book to had shared.

It was an adult ADHD coach saying, look, if you were diagnosed with ADHD in adulthood, how did you find out? And I'm very curious. I'm very nosy. It's one of the reasons I'm a journalist. I love finding out what makes people tick. And I went through this list and it was just like somebody had bought the Michael Aspel.

This is your life. Big red book. Yeah. Yeah. Brown. Here's why your crap finances and all that sort of stuff. It's just,  oh, that's more Michael Parkinson, but nevermind. All of just all of these things. And then, so I read this very long, very interesting thread. And then just sort of casually started looking up articles about it and then started finding out about the massive sea change, basically, that had happened in terms of diagnosis of women, but this concept of, you know, this lost generation of women.

Yeah. And actually, because I'm super fun and really know how to party, I was sitting in bed at 6am this morning reading a paper that I hadn't, I hadn't seen on, and it was basically talking about studies of ADHD and the huge amount of gender bias that took part in research, even between publication of the DSM 3 and the DSM 4, which was 87 and 94, and 81 percent of the participants in those studies were male.

And only 19 percent female, and if they were single sex studies, then 99. 6 percent were studies of male children. Like, women and girls have just historically been left out because symptoms, unless they are obvious, and again, bunny ears, which are, I'm going to give my fingers arthritis, because I use them so much. 

There are obvious symptoms of ADHD in girls and women and, you know, a lot of men as well. If you know what the inattentive symptoms are, then that's it. But very often, symptoms of ADHD in girls will manifest internally and be more emotionally driven and won't be as obvious as men. Or as, you know, attention taking up as boy children who are more hyperactive and more impulsive and, you know, putting their lives in danger every two minutes.

It's just completely fascinating, again, to sort of read. that history and learn more about that. And, and, and again, I think part of the reason that I went for assessment and a lot of the reason why so many people will wait on these waiting lists for, I mean, in some cases, you know, up to a decade, which is just terrific. 

It's because that knowledge it helps us to understand who we are and why we are and that we are not to quote that brilliant 90s book title by Peggy Raimondo and her co writer, you know, you mean I'm not lazy, stupid or crazy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely that. Do you know, I'm really, really hard relate with the other thing.

So I say that this extra thing, this, it felt like a dread. It's almost like I was walking around waiting for the lead weight to fall on my head. And all the while behind the scenes, your brain's going, Is it this? Is this what's wrong? Is that what's wrong? Or maybe it's this, and I'm just gonna run down this road.

And it must be because these people are upset, or it must be because I did this thing. And you're just, for me, that's what it felt like, is there's just something hanging over my head about to fall all the time. And I really, really relate to that. Why do you think, are we gonna just put it down to gender entirely?

Why do you think it was missed in you until later in life?  Nobody knew about it. I don't know. Yeah, I was reading another study this morning that was basically saying that social support, active participation, active listening, all of these are so important for helping young people manage their ADHD symptoms, but that really is only possible if caregivers know about it. 

and understand it. Um, similarly with, you know, gaining social acceptance, there's still a huge stigma around ADHD, the idea that it's an excuse for children who behave badly, or it's all about bad parenting, or it's just about laziness, or, you know, just not having positive role models to sort of show that actually, you know, Here are lots of people with ADHD who are managing pretty well because they've got those supports in place.

But, you know, nobody knew about ADHD when I was at school except theoretically as something that happened over there in America along with Haagen Dazs and Donuts  and Blockbuster Video.  The only thing that was diagnosed in school when I was young was dyslexia. That was the only thing that was accepted and supported.

And a lot of my, a lot of my friends were missed for that. Yeah.  Yeah.  And so many children were just sort of tidied away into different sorts of schools or just, you know, not helped. And a lot of that is still relevant now because I mean, newer teachers coming in are hearing more about and learning more about neurodevelopmental conditions, learning differences, all that sort of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, for the longest time, it was just, you know, behave, sit still, dealing with everything in a very strict way, rather than operating from a point of, sort of, interest, gentleness, thoughtfulness. But again, a lot of that comes down to the immense pressures that teachers and caregivers are under.

Absolutely. Do you know, I think it's really interesting because obviously, I've said before, there is a greater disparity in the things that we can do well and the things that we can't do well. And that changes between individual and like you've rightly pointed out that multi hormone sensitivity theory, I think it's called.

Where throughout the periods of periods, throughout the different stages, that's what I was looking for, of our cycle, the symptoms can fluctuate more or less, but I know from my end, it looked incredibly bad when you could turn up at English and do really, really well. And then you turn up at maths and I can't even compute what the teacher is saying to me.

It looks like. Two fingers up. It looks like I'm going, I don't care and I'm not going to try and fuck you. I'm being bad, even though I never did any of those things, even though I sat up straight and I tried to be polite, I couldn't get the work done, even though I wasn't ever in detention, et cetera, et cetera.

I was still in trouble. And I have taken that capital T written on my forehead. Around with me for the rest of my life because it is just like you're you there's something bad in you if you can do so well But then you don't give a shit and you think you're better than it or whatever it is You know, it's a really interesting thing when really I'm on one now Sorry, really it doesn't make sense at all.

Does it and that's the thing that I think is so interesting. Yeah  People love consistency, and that obviously isn't necessarily helpful if your brain is quite a stop, start, go for miles, really, really brilliantly, stop, go to sleep for quite a long time, get a bit bored, potter along, oh, what's over there? I mean, I, I thrived on anxiety, basically.

Anxiety has just been my motor. It's been my whip that's literally just been beating along going, don't let people down. Don't let people think that you're awful. You know, you've got to do something now. So it'd be do nothing, panic, be really confused about something, do everything at the last minute. I think the only reason I really managed to get myself together at university. 

was that I just ended up making peace with my insomnia and doing a lot of essays at four o'clock in the morning. Yeah. Rather than, you know, lying in bed, desperately trying to get to sleep, but just not being able to.  But acceptance arguably is one of the biggest pieces of the lot for all of this for us.

Just accepting that we are just like this and that we can't fix ourselves because we're not going to change into somebody else. But that there are structures and there are. strategies that we can use to help support us. But when, you know, that can often come along with our self esteem being very, very low and really needing to build that up again, and then potentially having other difficulties from ADHD that can come up, whether from work or finances or otherwise, and then to say nothing of, you know, all the other life stuff that we have on top of that as adults, whether it is, you know, you know, caregiving responsibilities, you know, being part of the sandwich generation as it's nicknamed, you know, having to look after elders and children, you know, just, just being a person in the world is really challenging.

And, you know, as, as lovely as it is for me to sit here and just go, I just try and go through life with an attitude of like optimism and gratitude. A lot of the time I am just sitting there with my eye bags, you know, gathering dust, just being like, Oh God, Oh God. 

Oh dear. Honestly, there's so many things I want to say. And I just keep my brain's like,  keep wanting to ask you other questions. I'm trying to come back to this. So I think one of the things that I I know because when you came to speak at Alienation in London, you said, I offered you a drink at the beginning, and you were like, no, I don't drink.

And you are sober, aren't you now? Is that what you're doing? Or you're predominantly sober? Oh, yes. I'm certainly sober from alcohol. Not that I go around, like, smoking joints and doing lines either. That would be incredibly unproductive. I'd love to say that I was sabre from coffee. That's definitely a work in progress.

And, you know, chocolate and lovely textural crunchy things I will still use as bribes to get stuff done. But yeah, me and booze have shaken hands and moved on to our separate futures apart. It's very interesting because I would say that my leaning into my crutch of a party lifestyle was genuinely One of the barriers to realizing that I had ADHD because I genuinely was hung over for 20 years.

No joke. And so it was like, oh, I've lost my keys again. Oh God, that was such a big night. That's why and I've done that, you know, all of the little things where I feel so anxious. It's anxiety, like all of these things I didn't realize. Yeah, the crutch that I leant on was actually gatekeeping me from seeing myself as I actually was.

Because you said you thrived on anxiety. And I feel like that is something that I've witnessed and heard a lot amongst friends and, and in the community. Is this kind of running on adrenaline. And I know for myself that when I was living in Ibiza, I came away, I didn't know I had ADHD at the point. Saying, you know, I just felt sick for about seven years.

I was either sick with that excitement, sick with nerves or sick because I was hungover. And I just felt sick all the time, but I just ran around like that. That's what powered me, you know, is such an interesting thing. I digress. We all know that we need to try and get to that place of acceptance. And that, that is the tough bit is accepting your lot.

Absolutely.  What has changed for you since diagnosis that you feel has got you to a more, obviously we know every day is a new day, it's not like you're fixed now, but what do you feel like has helped you on that path? What has changed?  I think for me, honestly, hearing continuous messages from other people about how they navigate life.

is so important. I heard something the other day in a support group meeting, which just really made my shoulders drop about five feet. It was that, you know, I'm not going to be able to fix the fact that I'm an alcoholic. I'm not going to be able to, you know, do anything to sort of change that. I, I've tried all these things to sort of change that and it's just not going to happen.

So all that can happen is that I can just go be like, Oh. But that's fine. That's just, that's just me. That's just the way that I am. And instead of trying to, I don't know, it's like that little gif of Winona Ryder with all the maths problems around her head. Like, why can't I drink properly? Why can't I, why do I need something to sort of like, bring me down before I'm going into like, a launch party or a big social environment or, Why am I so nervous if I'm going out with a group of people or all that sort of thing?

Or why do I always need coffee to get me going in the morning and then again in the afternoon? And why do I always need external factors to bring me up, bring me down, make me excited, blah, blah, blah, regulate me. Why can't I just sort of move through life like a cow or my dog or my cat or something like that?

It's just, there's just so much uncertainty there. And a lot of that, again, comes down to that feeling feeling other. And like from the outside, I think we can all look quite threatening to other people if they are feeling like low or, or really panicky or anxious, because, you know, we can look like either, for example, somebody who's got their shit together or somebody who's got a very successful podcast or, Oh, look, somebody's got a book out.

Wow. They must be minted. They must be Richard Osman. Or, you know, God, they must be so organized to be out wearing a suit and carrying a proper umbrella at 7am. I wish I was the sort of person that could do that. You've no idea what is fueling those people. What is, you know, getting that person to, you know, go to their job at seven o'clock in the morning or that sort of thing.

But we just put all these structures in place to be like, those people are great, they're doing it right, I am a massive fuck up in basically a suit that is disguising myself as being part of this world, but I'm not, I'm alien, I'm other, I'm wrong, I'm just, I'm defective. And we have all these messages that our brain gives us anyway.

And as somebody told me the other day, if you don't think you've got one of those, it's the voice that goes, I don't have one of those voices.  All of these messages that are going in and acceptance. isn't just sort of like going, do you know what? I'm going to get a bikini once I've lost six stone, or once my body completely changes shape, or once I've got an amazing tan, or once I've figured out how to do contouring, all those sorts of things, those sorts of elements of bargaining.

It's just going, do you know what? Actually, maybe I don't want a bikini. Maybe I just want the idea of a bikini.  Although actually, this two piece from Brevisimo over here is really brilliant and I'm not going to worry about it all getting sucked up my bum when I lean over to look in a rock pool or something like that.

It's sort of thinking about what that can look like for you. And my God, acceptance for me is something that I pick up all the time and sort of examine and go, am I doing it right? Is this the right kind of acceptance? Am I, you know, am I, am I looking after myself properly? Acceptance for me is going, my energy levels have just been completely cuckoo over the last four years and that I will have to have a sleep in the afternoon.

That, you know, I'm going to have to just realize that I just need to go to bed at granny o'clock for probably quite a good long time. That actually I function better in the morning now, even though I wouldn't necessarily class myself a morning person, because again, to me, the idea of a morning person is like the idea of a bikini.

It's very specific. It's not me in a bikini. It's not me literally getting up at quarter to six in the morning. to go off and, I don't know, exercise my friend's horse or, or read ADHD studies in bed like I did this morning. a morning person is something on a pedestal over there.  So that acceptance is again going, babe, you're awake at six o'clock in the morning.

You're completely conscious. You've gone down and given her, given the dog her breakfast because she's hooting away. saying that she'd like to be fed now. You were a morning person. This is just what it looks like. It's the morning and you're a person. Here we are.  And similarly with ADHD. And for me, it's, it's ADHD.

It's, it's not drinking. It's, you know, worrying about my eating habits. It's,  you know, also coming to terms with what comfort eating means versus what binge eating means. It's knowing that I have, you know, chronic problems with my hip, the other one will probably go at some point, and so I still get really upset that I cannot touch my toes and will probably never be able to touch my toes.

Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . It's the fact that I carry a lot of trauma in my body to the extent that if I go to an exercise class, I usually end up crying. I do that, but  I'm gonna have to just accept that actually maybe for the next, however long, I'm just gonna cheerly go up and explain this to my instructor at the beginning of the class.

And then probably go and hide at the back near the door, just so that if I do then actually need to go outside and just properly shonk in a sob, I can go and do that and get it out of my body rather than desperately trying to chuck it back in so that I don't, you know, upset somebody else in the class whilst we're all just trying to do planks.

It's, but it's really difficult. Yeah, I was just gonna say like the acceptance is like I think that often or feedback that I've had at times It's like oh you're acceptance, but like I'm still really upset about it. It's like yeah, I'm still really fucking upset about it I just accept that it's not gonna go away Do you know what I mean?

Like yeah, I will have good weeks and bad weeks and good months and bad months and different things You'll be like, oh I've come really far with that But I saw this really brilliant thing yesterday online. I can't remember who did it because of course I couldn't, but it was like this video of a flower that was opening, and as it opened at each stage, it, it retracted a little bit.

And it's like, this is what it looks like. You don't just like open and go, Acceptance! It fluctuates. People can't see my hands because I'm on a podcast, always forget. But you know, it's like, there's gonna be good days and bad, and just because you understand that you have something, you accept that this is your lot, and you try to find the systems to support yourself, it doesn't mean that you're clicking your heels together with glee about it, or that every week is gonna be the same, you know? 

Yeah. I had a real epiphany about this recently and again, I always thought, oh, having an epiphany must be like, I don't know, a lovely snow scene where everything's clean and bright and wonderful and then I don't know, go off and get a hot chocolate or something. Or like that scene out of Grease 2 when he comes up.

Oh my god. I went to go and see Cool Rider Live recently, which is a concert presentation of Grease 2, and it was the funniest and most joyful thing, and I hugely recommend it. But  thinking about epiphanies,  I basically went and did a therapeutic retreat recently, which I was really hoping would sort of like kickstart my brain into being, I don't know, a completely different brain.

This was again whilst I was still on my fixing jag. But this realization I had was after sitting with some really bleak, sad feelings about all of the stuff that I've been through over the past few years, which includes failed IVF and not being able to have kids and adoption was just not something that my husband and I were in a position to pursue. 

And again, there's a completely different ball game to both of those factors, just to sort of ward off the just adopt people. People who do adopt and foster are complete heroes. But I've been sitting with this. All I can describe it really is almost like toxic, sludgy sadness. It wasn't like, Oh, I fell over and hurt my knee.

Oh, this TV is a little bit sad. It just felt overwhelmingly horrible, and the image that I got in my head was of a sort of little person on top of almost like a big green hill, like one a child would draw, and I realized actually, what that actually was, was that I was standing on a rubbish dump of all of these feelings that I'd just been suppressing or repressing or just like, Nobody wants to hear about those!

La la la! For the last, you know, four or five years. And there was just this little thin layer of grass on top, and I was kidding myself that that was a hill rather than a rubbish dump. And so for me, the acceptance work that I'm working on now, very reluctantly, because I loathe sitting in discomfort,  I had a therapist once that said I was basically allergic to it.

And true enough, it's horrible. I have to sit with those. horrible, sludgy tears, those really upsetting, almost violent feelings, because this stuff needs to come out of my body and my brain. And I need to process that because I am physically carrying that around all the bloody time and it is exhausting.

But I need to acknowledge Even though I've literally written a book on it, that not being able to have kids is something that I find unbelievably sad. It's something that I'm pretty okay with in the day to day. But for various reasons, the fact that I never felt quite right mentally was a big factor in not pursuing other options.

Again, the fact that my, you know, my body didn't feel quite right. That was another big factor. All of these things together just sort of led to me go.  You're just not the right person to have children and a huge part of therapy afterwards was my therapist just turning to me and going, there are loads of parents with ADHD.

They're great parents. Yeah. You know, there are loads of parents who are disabled, who are chronically ill, who have this huge intersection of things. You know, what you were thinking is your brain telling you that you were defective. It's not an objective truth.  Yeah. And I probably, I think I got the bus home and just cried for about like three hours after that because it was like somebody holding me and telling me that I was all right, which was something that I just wasn't capable of telling myself.

And that's, again, is why this. acceptance work of just, even just the phrase acceptance work, it sounds like there's a little workbook that you can write an essay on, then you'll get a grade, and then you'll have passed.  Yeah, but it's not. It's sitting with all of these things, and by sitting it means literally crying, letting these feelings out.

and not trying to hide them because you're going to, you know, you've got a meeting in two hours and you need to not look like you've been crying for so long, or you need to get over it, or all of those very British stiff up lip things. It's going, this is bloody hard, whether it is years of undiagnosed ADHD and the myriad fuck ups that can come with that, this late understanding of yourself or this understanding of your family or relationships, partnerships, you know, friendships.

It's going, there's no fix for that because I don't need to be fixed. What I do need is understanding and support. And I need to know that, to borrow a phrase from a bumper sticker, I am enough and I am okay. And I don't need to become exceptional to be allowed to be the person that I am. To be allowed. to be a person in the world. 

And it's all very well me saying that. And that's what I mean when I say that I need to listen to this message coming from all kinds of people in all different ways, not just from ADHD, not just from people who've given up alcohol, not just from people who've been through infertility. But people who've been through all kinds of life experiences because those sorts of things show that these feelings and these worries are absolutely universal and that there's no one way of going through it.

There's no one way of accepting yourself because there's no bloody workbook.  No, exactly that. I'm so sorry that you went through all of that. Like I really, really relate, here she goes again, relating, but I do. It took me a very, very long time to feel grown up and responsible enough to be a parent.  And we just didn't get there.

So by the time we got there and we decided that we would try, it just didn't happen. So we tried for about two years, but that coincided with COVID. And in hindsight, had it not have been COVID times, we probably would have gone for IVF in the normal state of play, but it just didn't, you know, I'm watching all of this unfold, just like, well, we'll just, we'll just hang fire, because it's not important.

And then in the midst of all of it,  I got my diagnosis and, and ADHD AF became my baby and I think on, on some levels it was that as well was like, well, now you've got the proof  that you could not do it, that you would not be responsible enough that you, you couldn't, you know, what could you teach a child, you know, kind of a thing got doubled down.

And then. Life got busy and I, I don't know. I think we've always said, you know, maybe it's something to revisit at another point, but it's a very complex thing, isn't it? It's very, very complex. It is really complex. It's complex even if your path to parenthood is, again, bunny ears, like easy, uncomplicated,  because then there's the whole business of parenting, but We've just had a prime example of that horrible little voice in your head, like seeking an excuse for why things are difficult.

Oh, you know, of course, of course you can't have children because it's, you know, what, it's your body putting up a defense mechanism to stop you reproducing. No, that's nonsense.  I mean, there are some Keeping you safe from your own bad decisions.  But what you've described there and what you've done, you and all of the amazing people who help make ADHD AF something multi platform and wonderful and helpful and warm, It's not a baby replacement any more than my dog and cats are baby replacements.

Oh my god, just not, not even in the same league at all. Uh, for starters, toddlers could not win fourth place in the prettiest bitch category at Tutankhamen Fun Dog Show as  Sybil did on Sunday. Shout out to Sybil. But it is that feeling that People with ADHD do need, which is that sense of purpose. Excuse me.

How amazing is Kat Brown? I could literally talk to her all day and I'm so grateful to her for this conversation of which this is. It's only half and I cannot wait to share the second half tomorrow. And I also cannot wait because I'm going to see Kat Brown, not once, but twice this week, because Kat is joining me for the last ever Alien Nation show at Comedia Brighton on Saturday, the 20th of July at 5pm.

So she brought the house down. I think she should have her own podcast. I think she should do her own shows. I'd absolutely come along.  But instead, I'm very lucky and grateful to have her at mine. There's a few tickets left. If you would like to join us on Saturday for the very last show, the grand finale.

And I have Different, wonderful guests from the podcast joining me whilst we play Bingo. It's ADHD AF Bingo, what I do best. My ladle will be out and I will also be RSD too. And it's, it's a giggle, but it's to connect local ADHDers, uh, for that crucial peer support connection. So I'm very excited to do it one last time.

So I played Bingo, ADHD AF Bingo at Plaxtock last year. And this year.  I've got my own bloody tent. So myself and Steph, if you've heard the last episode, we announced the launch of ADHD AF Emporium with a focus on championing neurodivergent makers and small businesses, having our own tent at Flakstock.

Emporium is our first in person event. So I'm very excited about that and to be joined by Kat Brown and a whole host of other complete and utter legends. But I will share them all with you tomorrow because I really Do need to go to bed. Um, but yeah, if you want to check out ADHDF Emporium, head to well exactly that on Instagram or adhdfemporium.

com where you can even apply to be part of it. Not flack sock obviously, because that's too soon, but part of the online marketplace and future in person events. But maybe I'll see you at the last event on Saturday alongside Kat Brown. So thank you so much to Kat. If you enjoyed this half an episode.

Chinwag interview hybrid. Please do comment on the Q and A in Spotify or leave a review, hit those stars. I'd really appreciate it. There are loads of ADHD podcasts now. So every little, little thing you can do, a little share or, Stars here or there can really help get the word out there to like minded legends like us that have spent their lives feeling like aliens.

Let's help them know that there are actually a whole planet of us and to join our LEOPARD PRINT ARMY!