CHINWAG: Discrimination, Boundaries & ADHD Acceptance: Catherine Millan

'Have you seen Slumdog Millionaire?' This informal chat with Catherine Millan is as much about Destiny and Dharma as it is all that the episode title denotes. Late discovered ADHDer Catherine and I were thinking about that same film at the exact same moment, and this picture in which she blends in with the ADHDAF leopard print is again a total 'coincidence'... Or is it?! :) Whatever you believe in, and despite the current climate, I am certain that this crucial conversation will leave you feeling hopeful for the future!

Catherine Millan founded Be What You See because she believed the world was ready to make the real change required to reduce all forms of discrimination.

As a Black, female lesbian who lives with ADHD and Dyslexia, Catherine has always lived in the margins of society and has witnessed first-hand inequalities in healthcare, education and the workplace. This fuelled Catherine's passion to get involved in initiatives such as the Stonewall Awards, the Race Equality Charter Mark and working with her employers to design inclusive environments for neurodiverse employees.​

Liverpool's finest, Catherine's first-hand experience of adversity and learning from others' stories have been a driving force for her to bring about changes in society to help build inclusive communities.

I am so grateful to Catherine for this Chinwag, for speaking at ADHD AF Alien Nation at Salford Lads Club and at ADHDAF Emporium at Flackstock Festival.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR EVERYTHING CATHERINE, YOU ABSOLUTE LEGEND!

TRIGGER WARNING: Contains swearing and mentions of: racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, violence, Depression, Suicidal ideation, Becoming a carer in youth, poverty, classism, serious injury in military service, Criminality,Discrimination, Incarcaration, mysogyny, dangerous media, identity struggles, trauma, bullying, false accusation, education struggles

If you are in need of support YOU ARE NOT ALONE! There is immediate help out there so please REACH OUT

Thank you to Sessionz for editing and jingle and an enormous THANK YOU to the Planet ADHDAF Community Members for keeping this Podcast going for over 2 YEARS so that other literally like-minded legends can benefit from these crucial conversations (also making this the longest job I've ever had!) xx

You can apply to be part of ADHDAF Emporium: an online marketplace supporting neurodivergent makers and small creative businesses HERE
If you would like to connect online you can join the Patreon Membership HERE

If you've enjoyed this episode please share, review, hit those stars... all help others gain information, validation & lols.
I REALLY appreciate your support!
SELF DIAGNOSIS IS VALID & ADHD IS REAL!
Big love
Laura

Transcript

 I just want to start by saying I hope that you're all doing okay out there in these truly frightening times. I recorded this chinwag ahead of the atrocities occurring in various parts of England and in Northern Ireland. And I just want to send so much love out to everyone in Southport.  Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Darlington, Belfast, Blackburn, Blackpool, Leeds, Bolton, Hull, Liverpool, Manchester, Rotherham, Stoke, Nottingham, Tamworth, Leicester, Bristol, London, Aldershot, Portsmouth, Weymouth and Plymouth.

And to absolutely everyone all over the world, because what harms one of us harms all of us.  And if you are affected, and quite frankly, how could we not all be by what's going on right now? I just want to urge you to reach out for support. This is from the Samaritans charity. The violence and racism that we've seen over the weekend is distressing and frightening.

Please know you are not alone. If you are struggling with everything that is going on, you can talk to us free day or night on 1 1 6, 1 2 3.  Similarly, mind Charity has said that if racism is affecting your mental health, we have information that can help you to get the support you need and you can do so at.

www. mind. org.  uk. This episode was recorded right before all of this horror, but it could not be more fitting to share this chinwag now, which admittedly is three times longer than intended. Not just because of time blindness and hyper verbality, though both, as ever, play a role, but because my next guest is an absolute inspiration.

I hope you all feel as comforted and hopeful by the words of Catherine Millen, who is quite frankly, a total hero. Enjoy. 

Though blatantly obvious, the late discovery diagnosis and treatment at 38 for severe combined type ADHD in 2022, not only improved, but genuinely saved my life, which I've since dedicated to fighting for change amidst the global ADHD crisis. Okay. As the acronym suggests, I swear like a sailor, and each episode will contain sensitive subject matter, so please always read the description before diving in, where you will also find a link to resources for support.

These crucial conversations with experts by lived experience are shared to inform, validate, shame, eradicate, and unite the ADHD community, with a fair few laughs along the way. I've been labelled too much all my life, but finally, I celebrate my too muchness. and use my justice sensitivity to let the world know that ADHD presents differently in each individual.

Self diagnosis is valid and that ADHD is not a trend. ADHD is real and I want all ADHDers of all genders to know you are not alone. The leopard is a symbol of Aberdeen, Scotland where this podcast began. It also symbolizes bravery, the reclaiming of power and I'm a total hun. So So Leopard Print has become the uniform of the ADHD AF community, uniting to support each other and push for change, which together, we can make happen.

We are the Leopard Print Army. Hear us roar.  Hi, I'm Laura, and I am ADHD AF. 

I'm joined by a guest whose voice you will recognise if you joined us at Salford Lads Club for the Alien Nation show back in May and I'm super excited. Please will you introduce yourself? Hi everyone, my name is Catherine Millen and I am the founder and  company director of Be What You See Consultancy.

We are an equity, diversity,  and inclusion training company. And essentially what that means is we put together training packages across sport, health, and education, and look at areas such as neurodiversity, anti racism, LGBT inclusion, and how to be an active bystander. So my kind of day to day job is just going out into companies, businesses, the NHS, and just giving them training really on how to reduce or tackle discrimination.

but also looking at systems and processes as well and how we can make the workplace more inclusive. I am a softball captain. I'm also a godmom.  I'm a  fiancee to the wonderful Lisa. And yeah, that's me.  Hang on a minute. So when you've just reminded me, when we were at Salford Lads, you were talking about losing your engagement ring.

Have you got it? Oh yes. Yeah. I'm going to publicly speak about this now, now and now it's out. Yeah. No, unfortunately I am on my third engagement ring, but the same fiance, so.  Well, that's a good way round, right? Yeah, I'll take it. I'll take it. And I think, do you know what? It is just classic kind of ADHD symptoms.

Every time I've lost it, it's because I was rushing around, really, really stressed and genuinely just couldn't remember the point that I'd taken it off. Yeah.  I also didn't follow my routine of what I usually do because two of the times I actually lost it at softball, which was really gut wrenching. So I was like, how have I done this twice in the same place?

And I think it just kind of reminded me and Lisa that it's just that thing of just trying to make sure that I do stick to my routines. I do try and slow things down because. I don't know if this shows up for you, but when I'm under a lot of stress and a lot of pressure, my symptoms are almost like exacerbated.

So memory is like really poor, really forgetful. And for me, the goal now is to just try and slow the pace of my life down a little bit.  It's proven quite difficult starting a company and doing all the things that we're doing, but at the same time, that's kind of my personal goal, what I'm working towards. 

Yeah, it's tough, isn't it? It's that absence of mind, I think, and that's what it is, is when you're spinning so many plates or when life's giving you the knocks. I mean, obviously ADHD presents differently between all people, but for so many of us, being absent minded, zoning out, not paying attention, I'm doing that in inverted commas, is commonly shared between us, so.

In those times of stress, it's more so. So for example, this morning, I had a Q& A with Megan Burke's coaching in the community. And before I started, the batteries ran out on my headphones. And I sat here and went, I'll plug those in. I mean, right here, like I'm next to the plug. Okay. And I didn't. Instead, we talked for over an hour and then I've come on to this call and I have no fucking battery in my headphones.

So if you, if the sound quality is not what it should be, it's because my headphones have no battery, even though I've sat next to the plug for over an hour. Lizzie's story of life. And do you know what I find really reassuring though? And I think what really lifts me and why I absolutely love your podcast is, I love that we share these stories and almost normalise it and be like, uh, it's okay.

For me, when I first got diagnosed, it was such a lonely place because it didn't really, I knew one or two people that had ADHD and we'd spoken about it before, but. I think sometimes ADHD can present very differently in different people.  So that process of finding out how it really affects you, and then you then start to see certain behaviours and then you associate that with ADHD,  but then you kind of have this like, wave of feeling very different or othered.

So, listening to like your podcast and meeting other people and going to community groups, it really reduced that otherness, if that makes sense. And now I'm like, oh yeah, that's just something that I do. Let's allow it. How did you, how did you do that though? How did you pick it apart? How did you figure out in that lonely place where you're like, okay, I've got this thing.

What does that actually mean? What does it look like day to day? You know, how did you get there? Yeah, I think for me it was,  it was a combination of loads of things. So I guess the first one was I invested in ADHD coach, um, got free access to work. He's absolutely amazing. His name is Tristan Hunt. He has done a lot of work with creatives, but then also support and quite a lot of CEOs and his knowledge on ADHD was just inspiring for me to hear. 

Because not only has he got ADHD himself, he's kind of been through the journey and he's got to a place where I'm kind of aspiring to get to. He not only knew kind of the neuroscience side of it, he also knew the strategies to go alongside with it and then be able to then work with me really specifically on how does this show up for you?

Okay, what can we do? And then I think one of the first things he ever said to me was around discipline. And it was like, have you got the discipline to do this?  It is like, you're going to have to do the work. And I was like, Oh, okay. It was,  I was like, Oh, okay. Let's get straight to it. I was like, Oh, this isn't just going to be me showing up and it being like, and it, and it has been such hard work.

Like I've been working with them now for over a year.  It is all of those little things around your lifestyle, your routine, where I have to be disciplined to make sure that I do them. So things around, like, I don't drink coffee anymore. I drink mushroom coffee or mushroom tea. I will really try and work hard on what food that I eat and recognize how sugar affects me.

So I'll be a bit more disciplined. Right, I can have, you know, that little sweet treat at this time because I've not got to sit down in front of my laptop and put a presentation together.  Proved to being disciplined at what time I go to bed at night, not looking at my phone, having a lockbox in the office.

Really? Yeah, just, and it's one of those things where when people ask me, I can't really be like, it's this one thing, it's been a combination of probably 15 to 20 different strategies that I have to do every single day. When I don't do them, or say for example something happens and it causes like extreme stress and all the strategies go out the window and I'm just trying to survive.

That's when I find my symptoms kind of show up.  So it's been a huge learning curve for me to really understand myself. One thing that I always encourage people to do if, you know, if they've got the resources to do it is to maybe go and speak to either a counselor or a therapist,  because I, again, was really instrumental because.

It kind of felt like someone was holding up a mirror and saying, this is who you are. And at first I was like, well, I need to change who I am to be able to like live normally in inverted commas. But actually it was more around looking in the mirror and accept who you are and then make the environment around you. 

A place where you can thrive. So that was then really understanding things like RSD, why I'm always a people pleaser, and then doing that really deep dive into really understanding who Catherine is, understanding the elements of things like trauma, their experience. And I didn't even realize it was trauma.

And then getting to a point where you say, okay, I accept who I am. And these are the boundaries that I need to put in place with everyone around me. And I'd say that's the point that I'm up to in my life now. It's just starting to implement those boundaries with people. And yeah, I don't think I'm like, at the point where I'm like, yeah, I've completely got it.

But I am seeing that my life has shifted significantly now that I'm not trying to please everyone else. And it's about, well, what does Catherine need? If that makes sense.  It does make sense. It sounds amazing.  I'm trying, I'm trying to get there. I'm trying, but the same things trip me up time and time again, you know, you kind of go down a path and you think you've got your head on and you think you're doing it, you're taking in all the things, you're not just running and trying to please people or whatever.

And then get halfway down the path. You're like, ah, fuck. Fuck, I've done that thing again.  Do you know what? Honestly, one of the best things that I did was just start working backwards from the bad days and looking at, well, why, why was it a bad time? And then I was noticing patterns of behavior that I was doing.

Like I'd say to my partner, you're trying to fix me forgetting to take the bins out. And it shouldn't be about trying to fix the fact that I can't remember. It should be about what strategy can we have in place to support the fact that Catherine's not going to remember. So now it's, we've got on a piece of paper. 

Thursdays are the day that the bins go out. I will look at that and be like, oh yeah, the bins are out. We've moved the bins to the front of the house. Into the back of the house. Yeah. So I see the bins. Do you know what I mean? And it, it seems like that where, and by the way, my partner's brilliant. We, you know, like we're gonna split up over bins or anything , but  that's what you think  Well, I, I get it. 

Especially like friction that sometimes when I meet people with ADHD, there's friction in those relationships because it sometimes is this thing of like, we need to fix that thing you do. Yeah. Working with Tristan and kind of having therapy and really looking at ADHD strategies and what works and what doesn't.

It's been more like, I'm fine, we need to change the environment. Yeah. We'll get some acceptance, isn't it? We're accepting that this is not a willful thing that you are choosing. So it's not any kind of reflection on your feelings towards anybody else or a disrespect. It's like, this is the thing. And that's why I feel so passionately about delivering training because.

I stand in front of our participants and I'm first of all coming from like that lived experience in the workplace. This shouldn't even be a debate. I think for the neurodivergent community, we've not necessarily had the support.  That we should have had, and then that has made us masking the workplace.

Now that neurodiversity is being talked about more, more people are unmasking, and then employees or the workplace is being like, oh, well why are they behaving in that way? Or they may receive it as like. someone putting their headphones on as being rude instead of them acknowledging actually they just, they're having a sensory overload and they just need a bit of downtime or they want to join in in that conversation but know that they've got a deadline.

When I go in and explain it to people in that way, it's almost like you can see the penny drop of Oh yeah, okay. I get it. And I think our behaviors and how we kind of present ourselves to the world as a community, because it's maybe just been received quite negatively.  I'm like, no, there's quite a lot of good things that I know I'm really creative person.

You know, I've been able to start a business and build a company and I've never done that before in my whole life. But the,  how did you do it? Do you know, interesting question, the ADHD and I've got dyslexia as well. And dyslexia diagnosis was the kind of, I guess the catalyst for it all. But before I started the business, I used to work in higher education  and I've always worked and had a career working in secondary education, higher education, but more of a focus on like reducing inequalities.

I had like an amazing career. I traveled the world. I've done like humanitarian aid work, but all the focus around education, but looking at like, what are the barriers to young people accessing it to, you know, doing teacher training, how can we develop curriculums? So just that kind of more broader,  how can we make spaces more inclusive for young people with like physical disabilities in a school setting?

So I've always Being that type of person who's been very big into like social justice. And then when I got diagnosed during lockdown, I  think I just seen the inequalities and the systems and processes that I was navigating and in the workplace. And at that time, I'd run a community project called the Diversity Champions.

which we started after the Manchester Arena attack. And the reason why we started it is because there was a huge surge in hate crime in Greater Manchester.  As a direct knock on effect? Yeah, and you can kind of see trends of behaviours like that anywhere, you know, if something like that happens or there's a big incident in terms of racism or homophobia,  you kind of do see an increase in people  reporting more because people I think feel more confident reporting it, but also I think people who are prejudiced or have those kinds of negative views on people from different groups almost feel that they then have a platform to air their views and, you know, inverted commas, freedom of speech.

So, um, A lot of student staff members were coming to me being like, we need to do something. So in true Catherine style, I lobbied the university and was like, give me some money. I want to do a project where we put together a training package in the area of being an activist and anti racism.

Neurodiversity and  LGBTQIA plus inclusion. I was awarded a investing in success grant of 10, 000 from the university.  And yeah, I started this community project where we went into schools, went to students, teachers, and we gave them training in all of these areas, but we asked them to then go out and deliver workshops in their schools to their peers.

It wasn't necessarily coming from me. It was like, I'll train you in the basics of stuff. Then you can go away and deliver a workshop. The program completely took off. I managed to run it for three years until the pandemic happened. We won awards for it. I had loads of different schools. I think we had like a waiting list for it at one point, but because the pandemic happened, everything stopped.

And then I got diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia. I was kind of at that crossroads of, I've got this community project, which I love.  that I'd love to continue doing. My job role had changed in the university, so I knew I didn't really want to stay doing what I was doing at the time. Lisa seeing that, like, my mood had dropped significantly after I got the diagnosis, she was like, Catherine, I'm going to get you a coo. 

Um, and then I was like, okay, 

I'm tired of you leaving your key in the door. I'm getting you some coaching,  but she was brilliant because I think she also started a business in lockdown. She started a gym. So I think she was kind of like, you can turn that idea into a business. She just needs some help and support. Started working with this amazing coach, Vina, and she just blew my mind.

My first session with her, she was just like, what makes you happy? What do you want to do? What would be your dream? Tell me what your ideal perfect day would be. And I love all stuff like that. So I was just like, yeah, I want this. I want a training center. I want to do this. I want to work with Premier League football clubs and all of this.

And she was like, right, let's make it happen. So we spent six sessions kind of mapping it all out. And then in February, 2022. I officially set up the company on Companies House, and then I was like, Okay, we're doing it! I've got a business pitch! But I was strategic. I kind of knew that if I was going to do this, I'd have to leave my job at the university.

And it was a really good job. It paid really well. You know, I had loads of really good perks. So I think coming from a working class background, you are a bit more risk averse. I kind of sat down and was like, I know I can't just take the leap and just quit. So in true ADHD style, I was like, I can do both.

And then yeah, I just did the business, was working weekends, working evenings. And then we became fully booked within four months. Wow.  And now it was just like, Oh my God, like, this is going to work, like I can actually do this. The demand was there. You know, this was like a year or two after the murder of George Floyd, so  people became and companies became more consciously aware of like equality, diversity and inclusion.

So they were like, we know we need to have this. So a lot of my. client at that stage had just got like ahead of equity, diversity, inclusion, and they were like, right, we need to put together a training plan for staff. So because my company specializes in quite a lot of areas, unlike most other companies, they're either just a niche in like, you know, LGBT inclusion or anti racism and non neurodiversity.

I was like, I want to put together a package of everything. Yeah.  So I talk that and which makes sense, obviously . Yeah. For me, I was like, I wanna be that one stop shop. Yeah. And think, because when I was at the university, when I was piloting that program, I also worked with like external providers. So I was working with the likes of the A DD foundation. 

to help put together that neurodiversity training that we deliver to young people and stuff. So for me, I'd kind of done that role of having to go to when everyone individually having to, yeah, I don't know if it's me, I'm just maybe the way my brain works, but when I think about training, I think, right.

If you are training someone in something, it's to give them something, isn't it? Yeah. It's to give them something take away. What I wanted was to have training that gave equipped people with something that they would genuinely take into their organization. Yes. And would use, so our champions program, everybody loved it because the participants, they had to attend, but then also had to deliver something back to their teams.

Yeah. So their, you know, their attention span, honestly, they were so attentive during the sessions, but I think because they were just conscious of, I need to learn this because I've got to take something back to my team and do a workshop on it. You know, we work with the NHS, universities, we're working with a premier league football club.

We've just started doing some work with a company that works in the property industry, we've got museums booked in now, and we're just having a lot of people come to us, I think because of the type of training we do, but also the kinds of the model that we've adopted as a company in terms of how, how I'm doing it.

Uh, you've caught me on a good week, actually. So I was training young people this week. So it was a good week, but you know, being completely honest, it is like a roller coaster, you know, when I'm really good and I stick to my strategies, that's class is a good day. Um, If something comes in last minute, like I was in London on Friday, ended up doing a interview for Virgin Radio Pride.

Came in last minute. I had worked with the presenter before, Aidy Smith, and I was like, do you know what? Yeah, let's do it. It'll be a good opportunity. And actually, I want to start doing more things like firesides and podcasts and everything. But looking at it now, obviously I had to move everything about, go into London for the day, completely took it out of me.

And I was just like, out of routine,  so there's just some days where you've, you've just got to be like, I'm just going to allow it to be chaotic. I don't know if that shows up for you sometimes, but imagine what, like, obviously I've seen you on the tour and stuff and like, I still haven't got any routine.

That's the next chapter, Catherine. I'm getting there. I've clawed my way out. I'm getting my shit together, but I'm not there yet by any means. I have to ask you because I've been meaning to ask you twice now. So I, I think I know what you mean, but just in case I've got it wrong or anyone else doesn't, what do you mean by active bystander?

So active bystander theory in education, it originally kind of started or started  to be researched after a woman was the victim of rape and murder in New York  and what happened was people heard it. And some people seen it and didn't do anything about it. Right. Okay. Yeah. So then psychologists were like, well, why as human beings are we behaving in that way?

What is it that stops people from intervening? So active bystander training after me studying it, doing it to pilot programs and like higher education and stuff. I've just been really fascinated with that method of training on how to upskill people on how to challenge discriminatory behavior.  Um, what the training does and what we've written for our training package is techniques on what you can kind of do in the moment.

Because I think some people think active bystander is that person who jumps up and says, no, you can't do that. Yeah. And it's not, I mean, that's one, that is one technique they call that direct action. But there's four of a different ways on how you can challenge something. So it's, you know, things like delay the situation or disrupt the situation.

So for me, I feel like when we're talking about discrimination and tackling discrimination. Active bystander seems to be the one piece of training that all my clients like because it gives them the foundations of how to challenge. So we'll look at things like microaggressions. So if we take ableism, for example, I would have as part of my support plan that I wouldn't take the minutes during a meeting because of my dyslexia.

And there'd be times where certain people would challenge that.  or would say quite ableist comments to me, which would be like a form of a microaggression. But then they don't necessarily realize though that I'm not taking the minutes because of my disability. It's not me being lazy. It's not. So, um, What we do on the training is we get people to understand what are those kinds of subtle comments or behaviours that people do that are quite discriminatory towards people from historically marginalised groups.

So, I was having a conversation this week with the young people on the use of the term gay. So it came to me, like, in school, pupils will use the term gay to refer to something as broken. Yeah, when I was in high school that it was used like that. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's Stonewall did this amazing campaign on it to try and change the use of, like, you know, that word and try and get people to be mindful of the language that they use.

But that in itself is a form of microaggression. Do people still use it now?  Yes, unfortunately. I thought it was like, 20, 30 years ago. And it is that thing of people really understanding, I guess, how detrimental language can be. Yeah. And what I was saying to these pupils is, would you tell me why it's wrong?

And they were like, well, they mean it's broken, so it's factually wrong. And also if somebody heard that  and was gay, it would make them feel like they're broken, which would affect them mentally. And I was like, blown away because we hadn't even, you know what I mean? I was just like, you tell me what you think it is.

I didn't think they'd be able to articulate that. So then I kind of said to them, well, that's a form of microaggression. And this is like how you would challenge it. And then we go through the different steps on how they could challenge it. Active bystander training is it's kind of that one piece of training that I've done where I'm like, yeah, I feel like I can give people the tools where they can.

Actively go away and do something to challenge it. And it's not just about kinds of verbal and behavioral, we will look at like systems and processes. So I'll speak to clients about what are the inequalities within your hiring system that is not allowing you to have, say for example, disabled applicants go right through to interview.

So then I'll break it down and be like, well, first of all, you know, why aren't you giving the questions? out to everybody. There are a million and one forms that you're asking people to fill out. You know, they're all online. Could it be a different option? Does it even need to be an application form? Could you maybe use a video because of the type of job you're asking them to do?

So I'm very much around really analyzing discrimination, how it presents on all different levels. And then I kind of go in and I'm like, this is what you need to do to change it. If you want to hold that badge of inclusivity, some people. Like that having that power and privilege and I think as a society we've just got to accept that but I think for me in the workplace, like you should be able to come and be your true authentic self, and that comes from the environment that your employee creates for you. 

If we as a company can just help people understand a little bit more or understand people a little bit more and why people behave in a certain way or what certain people need to navigate the workplace and people embrace it, you know, I feel like I've done my job.  It's so interesting, the amount of conversations that I've had.

I mean, even on Reflection, here we go, I'm going to ramble, but definitely when I came into this space, when I started doing ADHD, I thought, Oh my God, I was so angry. I was so angry. I was so angry. I wanted everything. I just wanted to burn everything.  Like just the rage. And actually, as time's gone on anyway, but also, especially in this conversation, it's just highlighted the systems that are ableist, the things that are wrong, really, at its core, you would hope, for most people, it is to do with a lack of understanding.

Yeah. You would hope, you know, and I think that that, that is the shift, is that there has to be the training, there has to be the understanding. Because otherwise, you know, you live in this place and I definitely existed in this place of people purposely trying to do things and that idea of conflict and rage, and it just kind of breathes more of the same.

And that's not to say that there aren't people being exploitative and that aren't coming in from an awful place. But we have to at least assume that for the most part, when it comes to systems and processes and workplaces, that people are just oblivious. And it's not necessarily as dark and attacky as I thought it was. 

Yeah, and it's really  dependent on what industry you work in, what sector you work in. It's very different and I think I'm fortunate enough because I've had such an amazing career working in loads of different spaces. I've seen how inequality presents in different ways. I'm at a point now where the work that I'm doing, I genuinely feel hopeful about it because There's this huge movement for equity, diversity and inclusion work and rightly so, because we as human beings and like even looking at like the UK context, like the UK or our population is so much more diverse, diverse in race, diverse in gender, diverse in sexual orientation, you know, now we're seeing more diverse in mind in terms of like being neurodivergent.

And I think. A change is coming to accept that we all don't work the same way, and it shouldn't be one shoe fits all. I was speaking to somebody the other day, because they were like, What are your thoughts on the word equality? And I'm like, equality is something that we're aspiring to. But for me, I think everybody should be talking more about equity because equity is more about what do I need to sit at the table and recognizing that yeah, my chair might be different, but that's okay because that's what I need.

And I think I can see people are doing that shift from, Oh yeah, we'll just give everybody the same. And actually that's quite problematic to now. What does everybody need? Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's been an interesting journey, we're like two and a half years in now of, like I said, we work with some amazing clients and a lot of the time in the EDI space, there is a lot of, like, you know, like you say at the beginning, you're angry, you're frustrated, especially if you're on the receiving end of that inequality. 

But I think the work that I've done and the people that are me, the fact that now companies have a head of EDRI, that's a step. We're absolutely not where we should be. You know, when you look at things like health inequalities and like the NHS and stuff like that, but I'd rather be taking at least one step in the right direction to, yeah.

Not the call and being stagnant, if that makes sense. Yeah, completely. It's twofold. 'cause it's like, on the one hand, obviously. in your place of work, that's how it should be, right? They should know all of this stuff. But on top of that, you've got to think about how much of your life is actually spent in the workplace.

Absolutely.  It's mad, isn't it? Like, really, like, you're gonna go and spend most of your time in this place.  and they don't even know  this really important, this really important stuff, and how different people can work differently, like, it's mind blowing really, isn't it? When we're talking about the context of the workplace, I think outside the workplace, it's a lot harder.

So I always say to people when we do like the active bystander training, this is delivered in the context of the workplace. You know, outside and how society interact with one another and how people behave, it becomes a lot more difficult because you're all ascribing to like the same set of rules or policies or guidance.

You've got the law, yes, but obviously in the workplace it's a little different because you are governed.  You know, you do have a behavior policy, there is a zero tolerance, there's dignity at work, and there's documents there to underpin how we should behave in a workplace. If you really kind of strip this back, and going back to what you were saying about someone coming into a space for seven hours a day and not being able to be their true authentic self.

So take for example, for me, when I started working, I was so reluctant to tell people that I was a lesbian. Because I just generally had this fear of, oh, what if they start treating me differently? What, uh, so I kind of just hid that part of my identity. Was that based on your experience, your life experience?

Had that happened to you before? It was just a fear or it was? You know what? It's interesting because  I'm really, really fortunate in that when I grew up, I became a carer from the age of 14 to my mum. And I had two amazing people who came into my life and they just taught me how to be like my true authentic self.

So my coming out process, it wasn't as difficult or it wasn't as traumatic as, you know, some of my friends or stories that I've heard, but it's because I kind of came from a background where it was okay. I didn't come out until I was in university, and I think the place that I came from and grew up, you know, it's predominantly white, I was the only black girl in my school, so I didn't want this other label of like, oh, she's also a lesbian.

You know, I was a carer as well, so there was all of these things going on. So I was backing it up! Yeah, and I was like, oh my god, I've got all these labels. I don't want to like, so I think when I got to university, I was like, it just gave me this sense of, I can let this part of my identity out now.  I met some amazing friends who again, you know, some of them came out as well.

So we went through that journey together and.  But I think then going into the  workplace, again, I still had that feeling of being offered because again, I was the only Black woman in my team. And so I think I kind of understand the impact that it has on someone not being able to be their true authentic self.

And  there were times where, you know, because of, you know, being a Black woman, I was experiencing really subtle racial microaggressions. And, um, Like that mentally affected me. Can you give an example? Just in case anyone doesn't really understand. Yeah, so when I'm talking about like a racial microaggression, like a subtle kind of everyday behaviours that may be disguised as like jokes, banter but felt as like an insult.

So an example that I always used to get was people meeting me and then saying things like, oh you speak really good English. And then it's like, well,  I grew up  being like, I grew up and if anything, I've got a bit of a Scouse accent as well. It's just a little bit like, right, okay. Or the more kind of extreme ends of it.

I'm only laughing because it's so ridiculous. Yeah, that's what it is. It's so ridiculous though, we have these conversations. So I'm sure I said, my mum's from Trinidad and Tobago, right? Yeah. And obviously I hear her stories from her youth, but for me it always, in my head it always feels so far removed. I feel like I'm listening to my mum tell me a story from like 1950.

Yeah. You know?  Yeah. I'm like, what now?  And even that whole thing of like, You know, I was speaking to someone the other day, like, oh no, where are you really from? And, you know, Pete, I, I get, I've got, I've travelled quite a lot, I've lived in loads of different places. I've got a little bit of a Scouse twang, but if someone says, where are you from?

And then I'm like, oh, I was born on the Wirral, but I live in Manchester now. Like, that's enough. Like, you know, I've just met you. Why do you need, like, my full family history? Because actually What you're then making me feel like is othered.  I'm receiving that as, you don't see me as British, or you don't see me as, and that, going through that kind of psychology, like,  psychologically in your head, it really impacts you and, and then, you kind of question then, like,  Do I want to go into that setting again?

And you kind of have to have like your guards up. And that's what I seen when, when I was diagnosed with ADHD and then the more I learnt about it, the more ableism I seen because it was like, you know, Oh, it's a trend. Everybody's got it. And it's like,  Do you know what we've been through to even get to the point of being diagnosed?

Like, it's such a, it can be such a traumatizing process for some people,  as well as this huge, like, self discovery. And then you go through that process of unmasking. So I think for then somebody to come and just be like, dismiss it as nothing, or you're just doing it because everybody else is doing it.

It's like a really offensive comment, and to go into a workplace,  people are making jokes about your behaviors or how you are as a person. You can understand then why people from marginalized backgrounds maybe have higher levels of sickness. I was reading something about in a report from Stonewall, and they were saying that lesbians kind of have the highest rate of reports of discrimination in the workplace. 

You looked and you kind of broke that down. Lesbians then who worked in settings where it was like predominantly male, because of all of then the homophobic comments that they get around like, Oh, are you sure? You know, you've just not been with a man. And to the person saying it, it's a joke.  Actually, when you are on the receiving end of it, you're like,  wow, that's  it.

Like it literally would start making you question your own identity. I think on top of that, the, uh, sorry, just I'm like ? No, no, no.  On top of that you've got this kind of objectification Yeah. To be gross, but like the male gaze. Yeah.  You know, and I just think like for  when we're talking about the workplace, I should be able to go to work and. 

Yeah, I'm gonna, people get stressed in work, you're gonna have a bad day, but it shouldn't be because of your identity. Yeah. And that's what I feel really passionate about because it's not just jokes, it's not just banter, and actually, for some people, You walk away from it and your, your fear, almost like your safety.

I don't feel safe in this environment. I don't feel psychologically safe in this environment. And when we deliver the training, we delve into psychological safety and what that means. And, you know, we look at like trauma informed care. And when you start saying these words to people, they then kind of realize that that's not a joke anymore. 

I understand now why this group of staff, we've got a really high level of sickness. Yeah.  Yeah, because I don't, I don't want to come into work. I'm feeling anxious. It's just, for me, I think being at the point where I am in my career and all the knowledge and the experiences that I've had. I genuinely just want to pass that on to people to just get people to maybe just think differently or just see like the world through a different lens than what they've been looking and, you know, I said the other day in an interview that hopefully, um, because we do adults training and we've just started doing training with young people in schools.

I genuinely hope that, like, Be What You See gets to a point where we only have to do it with young people because  we'll get to that point where that generation have had it. So we're not necessarily seeing workplace discrimination to the extent we are now and probably, you know, talking myself out of business here.

Yeah, but  I genuinely believe that, like, I think it's the way life is. My ADHD and dyslexic mind works in terms of problem solving and seeing patterns. I was like, when I started the business, like we have to do work with young people and adults because  I don't want to be,  to me, working with young people is like the proactive side of it.

And whereas the working of adults is being reactive to things that have happened. Um, seeing a quote the other day, actually, it was like, it's easier to build stronger children than it is to fix broken men. I don't necessarily agree with that because I think it's a bit bit gendered, isn't it? But it's more the kinds of principles of that, isn't it?

It's like, if we can teach people from the offset, what inclusivity  means and get them to be accepting of everybody and get them to understand. The experiences that people are going to have, we won't necessarily then have to go in and do that work for adults because then those young people become the next generation and you're seeing it now with this generation of young people, like.

absolute trailblazers, the things that they're doing. And I'm kind of like, do you know what, hats off to them because we need people that are going to disrupt the status quo and are going to say, yeah, it was like that 50 years ago, but we're in 2024 and we don't want that for our future. A hundred percent.

Do you know, like, God, there's my brain has literally so many directions. One of the things.  You said, I actually felt quite emotional because my work history is basically non existent. Like I went into work age 17 in an office and I told the ridiculous story on tour about like, I didn't know that I had auditory processing disorder.

I didn't understand why the words weren't getting in. I didn't understand why I couldn't make sense of things. And I didn't think I was stupid because I knew that I wasn't, I know I can do things. So it's very, very confusing. And so I was answering the phone, putting it through to the wrong person, all of this stuff.

that I just didn't seem to be able to do like everybody else and it caused great shame and so much anxiety. So I lasted  six weeks in that job. I've always just done jobs for a really short period of time apart from my friend's pub because I can go in there. And that's my safe space, they know me, and I have the authority that if somebody made me feel uncomfortable, I could be like, Ow!

You know, like, it's just like, get out of my pub! That's it, I can do that. And then all these other things have just been off my own back, and I really realise That that is because I did feel uncomfortable in the workplace. I didn't feel like I could be myself. And then you've got, like you said, out in society, different comments made.

I remember somebody saying once, the one that really sticks said, um, Oh, I saw Laura Reynolds earlier. Oh my God, she talks so much. And I had to go and have a lie down afterwards. And I'm just being like, Oh,  the shame of it, the shame. But it's like, they didn't know. And that probably was really heightened. I either really excited. 

All really anxious and just went, but this  person, but that's part of who I am, you know, and we know why.  And I think it worries me as well, because it's just like, I was with somebody yesterday and they were, you know, talking about going through a diagnosis of ADHD and they kept apologizing for how they were and I just stopped them and I was like, listen, like I get it.

And honestly, you never have to apologize to me. Like we are having a conversation. I'm vibing, you're vibing. Yeah. Like be your true authentic self and I think it was really interesting for me to see that everything that this person was saying it was that like needed that reassurance oh it's okay oh yeah I'm really sorry that didn't mean it to come out and I was kind of just like no like be yourself and I think it really for me now as well that's why I think it's really important for us to have our own spaces and this is what I talked about on the tour because It's just so refreshing to come into a space and know that you can let it all out, just be yourself and you're not gonna have criticism or you're not gonna have, you know, people kind of judging you or make fun of like who you are.

And I think when you hold multiple identities, you know, when you talk about things like intersectionality, I found it really difficult because then it's like some spaces that I go into,  yeah, they're brilliant around kind of, you know, neurodiversity, but then I'm like the only black person. Yeah. Like,  and then it's like, okay, I'll go into certain like queer spaces and then it will be like,  Oh, okay.

But again, I'll either be the only black person or, you know, uh, people, you're right, diversity, like, you know what I mean? So I think, I think it's that thing of like,  it's not around trying to find like the perfect space. It's around people changing the spaces that we hold for people. And understanding that how much comfort we do get from podcasts like this. 

and why they should be highlighted, why people should be given access to things like this, there should be more, you know, support groups, there should be better staff networks that are proper resource, because we do need that space, but equally it's about looking at the whole. environment in total. But what, coming back to what you said about like your job, I think one thing that really helped me because everyone's like how  you've, you've only had like a certain amount of jobs and stuff, but I started working and was just very clear on, I'm only going to do something that makes me happy. 

Coming from  Having to look after Mormon, having, like, financial pressures, it kind of gave me this drive of, like, I had to go to university, have to do all of these things because that's how I'm going to essentially break the cycle of poverty that I was kind of born into. And I think that then really enabled me to pick work  and had to do jobs that, like, I really loved.

And then it was just a case of then, I've never really done a desk job. I've always done jobs that's been working with people, doing events, delivering training. Like I said, I lived like for three and a half years, four years all around the world, you know, managing volunteers, doing humanitarian aid, working.

All of that time I had undiagnosed ADHD and dyslexia, and it was never, ever a problem. And it was only when lockdown happened.  When I was physically locked down, I wasn't allowed to do anything that I was used to, that I just had to melt down. So the advice that I always give to young people that I speak to who've got ADHD is like, you've got to find that passion.

You've got to find, and even if it's something like really random, like for me, I loved public speaking. I became head girl for my school and it was off the back of nearly getting permanently excluded.  and getting into trouble with the police when I was in year nine. How'd you turn that around? I just, you know what, like,  something happened in school and the police got involved and It actually turned out I was innocent and I was like, yes, I knew I was innocent.

And one teacher just sat me down and was like, this is your point now to turn your life around. Cause I think at that time when I became a carer, I was only 14. It was so overwhelming. I had to learn how to look after somebody else as well as trying to look after myself. Um, the reason why I, like, I don't regret that happening to me is because that taught me life skills that actually enabled me to manage my ADHD up until lockdown. 

So, I had to be organized with my time and I had teachers and youth workers around me helping me do that. In terms of being able to kind of focus and kind of have goals and work towards things, everything was all like broken down for me.  So all of these kinds of skills that I learned because I was a carer enabled me to kind of then, I think, mask the fact that I had ADHD. 

And then from 11, just something switched.  And I remember a teacher saying, you're either going to go to prison or you're going to go to University, Catherine, you decide. And I think when you are in a position where you have to be a carer for someone, it's not necessarily a choice.  And that, for me, was the first time any adult had given me a choice about something.

So I was like, you know what, I'm going to go to university, I'm going to be the first to go. And yeah, I just Goosey's! I'm literally sitting here like,  God! That's so powerful, my God. Yeah, and I just, like, turned things around. They ended up putting me as head girl. I started working with this amazing charity called Western Spirit.

So I don't know if you know the guys. Simon Weston, who was burnt in the Falklands War. I don't know. And he set up a charity for young people and it was interesting because he set it up because he himself got in trouble with the police, was in front of the judge. I think they said to him it's either, you know, national service or you're going to go to prison and he chose national service. 

And that, that was the reason why he ended up obviously then getting burnt in the forefront. So his charity was very much around personal development for young people because he didn't want young people to have to make that type of choice. He loved me. Me and him got on like really well. I did one of their development programs and then they were like, Oh my God, she's turned her life around.

She's got all this. I was like up and down the country with him doing all these fundraisers and. Yeah, I just loved it. I ended up going to Cheri Blair's 50th birthday party at 10 Downing Street when I was like 16.  I was like, that's a little thing when people are like, when you play Two Truths and a Lie, I like drop in all these things and they're like, have you ever did that?

And I was like, my mum has got the picture on the mantelpiece and it's her most proudest picture of me. But again, it was just that thing of, At such a young age, just being around people who are like, be your authentic self, but also recognize the barriers and the challenges that I was going to get. So by the time I got to university,  I did bar work, absolutely loved it because I loved working with people.

Like, it was a nightmare on the till. My till never added up to the amount that it should, but you know, my boss was like, it's fine. But I just kind of did all of those jobs that I had to do. So then when I graduated, I was just like, I need to get a job that I love. So I kind of went into doing youth work and funnily enough, actually started working with young people who've got ADHD and doing pro social activities and stuff with them.

And looking back on it now, it was interesting because I do like a skill building course. And a lot of the time I'd be saying to them, well, I do this and this really helps. So it's not just good for people with ADHD. And then now I'm like, oh my God, like I was giving them advice on stuff that I did. But it was because it was really helping me with that undiagnosed ADHD. 

I don't know, I've just been, I'm really fortunate that every job has been like, I've had to be passionate about it. I've had to be, and the reasons why I've left is more because of the systems and processes that I've having to navigate in, as opposed to, oh, I wasn't really good at it. If that, if that kind of makes sense.

No, it does. And do you know what? I'm so time blind and I don't know when we started recording. Just say this, right? Cause this is supposed to be as long as it is, but I've been, I'm loving it. The thing that's really stuck out to me from when we first started talking, whenever that was, but especially as you're talking now, is this passion.

Like that's what I see. And actually, you know, as, as we've learned, as we all know, as we've gone along on this safari, finding out more about ADHD is that actually we have to utilize that as ADHD is. We have to accept the ways in which our brain is fired up. What's going to keep us interested. How do we do it?

Is because it is your passion, your passion, your purpose. That's, that's what keeps you going. That's what helps you. And it's funny because I think I obviously, like I said, at the start of doing this podcast, I didn't know anything. I literally just got diagnosed. And so to my mind, I was like, Well, I've taken this medication and now I can do shit.

You know, I used to think to myself, Oh, should I do this? Or should I do this? Or I don't know, or you couldn't possibly do that. And all of these things would come in and cloud my judgment and stop me from doing things. Thank God for that medication that's taken that all away. Well, there is that, but there's also the little matter of actually, this is my absolute purpose.

Like when I'm hearing you talk, It's like people say, well, how do you know all this stuff? I was like, I don't even know that I did know any stuff, but it's, it's, it's what's in you because you're like, this is it. This is what I believe in. This is what I get up every morning and fight for. It's inherently like in you.

Yeah, definitely. And even with, if you think about the, so if you take, for example, like procrastination and why we procrastinate.  99 percent of the time it's because we're doing something that either we don't like or we find challenging or that we're looking at it as like the bigger picture. So a strategy that Tristan has always taught me is to kind of break it down into chunks, do it one by one, but understand that overall goal of why you're doing it.

And I've just, that's genuinely how I see life. The problem is that the world is not equal. There's a lot of discrimination that happens. And I genuinely feel passionate about working towards dismantling all of that. So for me, then it's almost a case of working backwards of what, what can I do to give to the world or what every day, what is that one thing that I'm doing to work towards that goal?

And I do that with, obviously, be what you say. And I also do that with my life and I, you know, coming from the background that I did, I'm like, one of my goals is like financial freedom. I want to break that generational cycle. My dad was from Tanzania and my mom's family are Irish  because of what happened to them.

And in terms of, you know, looking at migration and like the experiences that they had, unfortunately that was inherited to us in terms of there's a cycle here of, you know, kinds of deprivation. There's a cycle here of discrimination, of poverty that I want to break. And I want to be that. You know, person to be like, yeah, it was at this point, me, my sister, like we broke that cycle and now our kids aren't going to have to go through what we did.

And I just generally everything that I do in life. That is my outlook for looking at, like, what's the goal, what's the purpose, and then working back towards it. And if I can't find that passion within it, a lot of the time I'll just pull away because I'm kind of Yeah, yeah. One thing that I would recommend if you're kind of into this or, you know, the listeners are into this, I did meet with an astrologer.

I'm well into it.  Oh, Laura, that absolutely blew my mind.  He in a nutshell was basically just like, uh, so I had my chart on everything for like the full year and he was in a nutshell was just like, you've been put on earth  to do this thing.  And when you work against it, when you work against, you know, this goal of trying to, you know, reduce discrimination.

He was like, that's when you'll start to experience, like, you know, distress or like low moods and stuff like that. He was like, so Once you've given the world what you're meant to give, then it will be your time. So then I was like, well, I have to do it now.  I was like, well, now you've said it. I totally get it.

And I've seen it throughout my life. I've seen the patterns of. When I've tried to do like something, I want to say normal, but like jobs like everyone else, or I've gone against  what my passion is, it's not worked. It's affected me mentally. And he just kind of like, you know, hit the nail on the head and was kind of like, you've got to do this, Catherine, to no matter how hard it is.

And I think it made me realize that. As human beings, where it's not necessarily about us, it's about what we give to the world. It's our service and it's our purpose and I think if people can get to that place where it's not just always about you and it's about a bigger picture, I think for me it's just helped me get out of my own head.

Or know that every day when I wake up, yeah, this is what I'm working towards and it's good. Do you know what I mean? You'll know yourself, the days where it gets really dark, in terms of the really low mood, you're emotionally dysregulated. You get to a point where you're like, I just don't know if I can keep doing this.

Yes. In the sense of either you want to quit your job or, you know, for me, I always say to people, like, I've never had suicidal ideation, but there have been days where I'm like, I can't continue and I don't want to continue.  And I think for me when I went to him, I was just like, at what point though is giving back to the world, how much do I have to sacrifice for myself?

But he was just, you know, he was absolutely brilliant and he didn't go into like the finer details, but you know, he said, about my coaches and, you know, I should ask for more help and the help is there. And so then it was like, right, actually, I'm going to see my coaches once a week now, instead of once a month.

And it was then this process of like, it's not, you're not meant to push yourself to the extreme. You're meant to do all of these little things till you don't get to that point.  But again, like I love all stuff like that. I was just, it's kind of nice to know what I'm working towards. Kind of. I'm the same, like literally if I've got stuff on as well, I'll, I've got stuff on, there's always stuff on, but like, I'll be like, right, I've got this call on Wednesday, what's happening on Wednesday.

And actually it has been really helpful for me. And I think definitely astrology when times have been hard, you know, bloody hell there's none of us that went through the pandemic and got out of that scot free. Like it was awful for everybody, you know, in difficult times. I really leant on it for hope.

Like definitely, you know, there's more coming. There's a, cause I think we can sometimes be like that, can't we? Like how things are is how they've always been and how they're always going to be. And you can feel So penned in, it's like, oh no, this is all going, we'll be somewhere else in time, it all passes and moves.

I don't know, I don't, I don't really see any harm in it, I think it's quite hopeful. Yeah, I think hope is the, and it's really interesting that you used that word, because when we were working with the young people last week, me and the other trainer were like, the one word to describe this week is hope.

Because I think they gave us hope in that the next generation of young people that are going to become the politicians that are going to become the change mean, change makers, but for  me, having ADHD and this complete lifestyle change that I've gone through.  I think hope is the one thing that I always try and fall back on because I know things are only going to get better. 

And I think about all the life experiences that I have. I always say to people, do the film Slumdog Millionaire. Yes! You know what? I was literally going to say to you about Slumdog Millionaire. It's like that. I'm like, that film stole my kind of storyline of my life. Do you know what I mean? But it's that thing of all of those experiences that you have.

They do shape and mould you into what you're meant to be. You know, my life could have been very different in terms of all the different identities that are holding my background. And I could have been that person, you know, who potentially could have ended up in prison and it was possible. Do you know what I mean?

Now I'm just kind of like, how can I take what's happened? And use it as something that can enable me to go forward instead of backwards. And I do have a quite positive outlook on this. Um, no matter what my client says, what's happened or whatever, I could be like. Right, let's do this.  Let's do this to get to where we want to be.

It took a lot of therapy. You know, it took a lot of amazing support, um, from family and friends. But,  you know, and meeting people like yourself. But coming out of it at the end, am I happy? Yes. Could life be better? 100%. But I just feel a lot more in control now, which gives me Hope in what I'm going to do with my future. 

Difference you're making to other people's futures. You're amazing. And I have to say, this is a very strange thing to say, but you know,  it's me. Catherine, when we met, so we've got a mutual friend and we spoke on the phone and we actually spoke on the phone for ages. And then I met you at Salford labs.

You make me feel calm and it's very rare. There are very few. Honestly, you do. It's really, really weird. I said, it's a big, when we left, I was like. She's got that thing that not many people have. I feel really calm around Catherine. 

I lived in Ibiza for quite a long time and this is something you hear in Ibiza quite a lot is you're, you're, you're living your Dharma. Do you know that expression? Yeah. Yeah. Like you are not just living authentically, but you are like living your whole purpose and everything. And it's like shining out of you like a care bear when they shine the light out of them.

That's what you're like.