Grief is a storm we all must weather. Yet, it's a journey as distinct as the individual. This comforting and insightful conversation explores how this universal emotion can uniquely impact a marriage. From unmet expectations to the diverse ways each partner processes it, we delve deep into this intimate territory of how we are navigating grief as a couple presents its own set of challenges. How we each express and experience this powerful emotion can vary widely, making it challenging to remain present for our partner. In our discussion, we explore through our own stories how couples can support each other in these testing times.
Grief is a storm we all must weather. Yet, it's a journey as distinct as the individual. This comforting and insightful conversation explores how this universal emotion can uniquely impact a marriage. From unmet expectations to the diverse ways each partner processes it, we delve deep into this intimate territory of how we are navigating grief as a couple presents its own set of challenges. How we each express and experience this powerful emotion can vary widely, making it challenging to remain present for our partner. In our discussion, we explore through our own stories how couples can support each other in these testing times.
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
Speaker 2:We are Brad and Kate and our more than 20 years of marriage. We've survived both dark times and experienced restoration.
Speaker 1:Now as a licensed marriage counselor and relationship coaches. We help couples to regain hope and joy.
Speaker 2:We invite you to journey with us, as we are Still Becoming One.
Speaker 1:Let's start the conversation. Hello everyone, welcome to Still Becoming One. Welcome. We are so glad to be back and talking again today about mental health in marriage and then some of the other episodes that we've talked about of anxiety and depression. You know, maybe they won't impact your marriage. Maybe, you'll get through, you know, without any major issues. But this one today. Yeah, that everyone, everyone is going to get impacted by it at some point.
Speaker 2:True, unfortunately, it's true.
Speaker 1:So, and obviously it comes in different forms, in different ways, but we're talking about grief. And how do you, how do you walk through that in a marriage? And this is such an important conversation because I've seen grief pull marriages apart.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, there's definitely some, some scenarios that it's just devastating, and so having to navigate that as a married couple, which we navigate everything it's just yeah. Watching couples go through it it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. I just wanted to start with because I think this is just such a beautiful way to think about grief. Mm-hmm. We have talked in our podcasts several times about problems or the challenges of having expectations and expectations that aren't spoken in those kind of things, but I believe it's Brene Brown who actually talks about grief as a loss of expectations. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And you know, we're expecting somebody to be there at Thanksgiving, or we're expecting to be able to call them, or we're expecting them to see our kids grow up, mm-hmm, and that doesn't happen, mm-hmm. It is that loss of expectations that brings grief out.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:So I just think that's a beautiful way to kind of think about it and also think about the waves of grief when it hits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think even I just define grief as loss. Obviously there are different levels of loss and not all of them are going to bring waves of different things with them, right? Or some do and you're able to deal with it in the moment because you lost your pen and I don't know. You know like nothing like that, but it is loss. It's loss in lots of, definitely the obvious one of losing someone you love because their time on earth here is done.
Speaker 2:That's the obvious one. But you can lose a person and still have them be living. You can have the loss of a friendship, the loss of a loved one where relationships are difficult, loss of a job, loss of a friendship there's just all kinds of things that loss can happen. We know someone recently who their house had a fire. That's the deep grief and loss. It's an invasion of all of your stuff. And while stuff is only stuff, it holds memories. There's just lots, so grief is loss.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so grief can run in many different forms and in many different places and I think the challenge for couples that I've always seen is that no two people grieve the same.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And you can be grieving the same loss. You can be grieving the loss of your mutual child for instance and that can pull you in very different directions as you grieve differently. Sure. And then that can feel like there's a place where you're not taking care of each other. Mm-hmm. Or one person isn't grieving in the way that you want them to, and so it just kind of can really pull at a relationship.
Speaker 2:It is easy to not understand someone else's grief journey and, as you said, no two people is it alike. Well, because no two people are alike, even if you're siblings and you've lost a parent, which both of us have experienced that. I have three siblings, brad has one. The relationship we had with that parent, it's different. The all of it is different, even though we grew up in the same home.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:And so the grief journey is just so complex and different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Kate and I both have gone through some of this in the last what two years here. Both of us have lost a parent in the last two years and we have not experienced the loss of a child, thank God. Yeah, but we have walked with many people who have. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And just you know the heartache of seeing a whole ton of expectations disinqueering is very, very heavy Mm-hmm. And and it's so hard to see just the waves of grief that come back in those moments as you think about different places where this person was supposed to be. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I definitely wanted to talk about is how. How do we help each other through? Some of that Mm-hmm you know.
Speaker 1:I was just talking with somebody the other day who it happened to be the day that they had lost a parent, and yet it was 10, 11 years before that. Mm-hmm. But that day was significant grief for them, mm-hmm. It held a lot of memories and what's amazing was through the conversation. Mm-hmm. It shifted from the trauma memories to the positive memories. Yeah, and the tears looked similar. Mm-hmm. In both stories, but I think, the, the facial expression and the joy and the and the other experience was really positive. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And this is one of the things I wanted wanted to bring up is often the positive memories of the person. Mm-hmm. That you're grieving are kind of often stuck behind some of the hard memories. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And sometimes, you know, we have to remember their loss or we have to remember the day we lost them or that we found out, or we have to, you know, go through some of those hard trauma memories in order to get to some of the positives.
Speaker 2:Hmm, I would imagine too it's deeply impacted by your relationship with them.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I remember the loss of my grandparents in our early, my early 20s. We were newly married and I lost all three of my grandparents in uh, I think it was only like a year and a half or something. I only grew up with three of my four grandparents and with them I didn't feel that was hard to access, like I felt like the fun memories and that's that's kind of how I tend to go, sure, to just like I want to smile, I want to laugh about the things that were hilarious, that my grandparents were quirky and fun. I do feel like that was a little bit harder with my dad, yep.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I mean grandparents. That's part of, somewhat, the relationship you have with them. They are the fun people that come into your lives, and so I think it can also be not super straightforward and it really does depend on, yeah, how all of that and what your relationship has been like. But I think that's an important distinction to help people know that sometimes you have, you have to process the more difficult stuff to be able to get to the memories that make you smile, that bring you joy, that, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And look, we all go through different stages of grief and. I think one of the challenges as a couple, especially if you're grieving together, is that you can't push somebody into a different stage of grief and the two of you may be at or in different stages. These are not like linear right, Like you don't just go through the anger stage once and now you're through it.
Speaker 1:This is what stage you're in at the moment and you kind of experience that Well, if your spouse is in the bargaining stage and you're in the acceptance stage, it may feel kind of disconnected and that can be a challenge that couples need to figure out how to be present for each other in the midst of their grief.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I talk a lot about grief with the people that I meet with because sometimes it's part of their trauma stories as we work through them. But the reality is, anytime we're doing story work, there is the process of processing your story and understanding. There is a grief process of the things you didn't have, that you needed when you were younger, the moments you were missed, the moments you were unseen. So grief is also something that is a little bit elusive and a little bit people need permission to experience. Right when someone passes away, everybody around you is going to understand there's a grief process, even if they don't understand it or know how to help you walk through it. They know it's normal, but it is also a normal thing when we are processing our stories to grieve what was lost and so that's so powerful.
Speaker 2:Keeping that in mind, because usually when I ask people to enter into well, this is grief like being able to grieve this that is hard.
Speaker 1:It is so hard.
Speaker 2:Just like trauma in that we can get people to recognize and acknowledge large traumas. But when we talk about the trauma of not being seen or heard in your childhood, that is harder to acknowledge. And see and see. Give space too.
Speaker 1:You talk really well about the use of story in grief, and I think this is something that we need to do a better job of as couples as we're going through these times. You may have heard all of the stories of your spouse's mom.
Speaker 2:Or you may have heard all the stories about the person that they're grieving.
Speaker 1:But when those waves of grief come up, whether it be days after they passed or years after they passed, often going to stories is a really healthy way to explore the emotions of grief and to honestly bring the person very much back into their mind. There's a I don't know. I'm thinking about this at the moment. There's a beautiful scene in the movie Saving Private Ryan where the brother says I can't picture my brother, who he had found out that died. And then they get him to tell a story about his brother and then he's like yep, there he is, and that is very much how our brain works. Trying to bring up their voice, trying to bring up their face. Sometimes is hard.
Speaker 1:But if you go back to that story of that time that mom did something and you remember that. You remember that and just allowing the person to experience those stories and tell you those stories again is a very powerful way to take care of somebody in grief, and I would actually caution. Sometimes it's easier to go to like tell me the happy stories of your mom. We don't have to just stay there. Right, we can talk about all of the stories. Like tell me some of the times that you and your dad fought right.
Speaker 1:Or tell me some of the times that you know things didn't go so well with that person is a beautiful way to embrace the grief process.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we could go into that even in depth. Grief just brings out so much stuff and when you're going through it with other family members it can be very complex and confusing.
Speaker 1:It sure is. I think, confusing is a really good word, because when you lost your dad and I will say, I really didn't know what I was supposed to do, what role I was supposed to take in order to help you through that.
Speaker 2:Obviously.
Speaker 1:I knew it was a more significant loss than it for you, than it was for me, and I think there was a place where I looked to you to go. How do I help? But, as we've talked about in the podcast before, that's a hard question for Kate to answer. She just gets into this. You know, based on her story gets into this. I just need to do it myself. Mode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, talking about grief with us is a well, it's complex, no matter what.
Speaker 2:But also we were at the time my dad passed away and continued on until your mom passed away and everything Like. We were also very much in the thick of a trauma, household Correct and I don't know how else to say it except things have gotten really difficult in our home trying to help a kiddo with significant trauma, so it is actually hard for me to separate it all out. I feel like I wasn't able to even fully concentrate on grief of my dad. I don't even know what that means to fully concentrate on grief, but I wasn't able to give it my full attention. And yes, that does lend into my story some with my family, but also just with feeling like our own family had so many needs and helping our three older kids walk through losing a grandparent that they had had in their life for everything, helping a fourth child who had only met my dad twice because my dad had been in a nursing home all of the time. Our youngest daughter was with us. It was all just so very complex and complex.
Speaker 2:In some ways, but I understand what you're saying from a spousal perspective, like how to help me walk through it.
Speaker 1:And I think for me, I wanted to give you space to grieve, and yet I'm not sure that that's always what you needed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think, unfortunately in the United States I don't know how it is, it's probably maybe even more so in other countries potentially but there's a lot to do. It's not like you get to just sit down and be like, okay, there's a lot to do and help my mom walk through, my siblings and I, and so I think, just you being supportive and saying what can I do? What is helpful, what's not helpful? I know when your mom passed away, like that was tough, there were mixed messages, there were times I thought I was helping you with something and then I wasn't.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it's just trying to not, in my opinion, just be okay and not take offense and whatever's helpful. I'm here. I think those are the things that really do impact the two of you doing it together.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Because it's easy, if I say something like can you help with this, and then I change my mind, for it to push into your own story and cause hurt. And I think during grief it's trying not to just not to take offense and let it be what it is.
Speaker 1:And that's kind of exactly what I was pushing in on of like. I think when we both went through it, there were times that some frustration came out at each other that really had nothing to do with each other, Like we were trying to have a posture. Right, we were trying to have this posture of taking care of each other, being supportive, but it's easy to get frustrated. It's easy to have some of that leftover emotion come out on the person who's safe.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, absolutely, it's not gonna come out in other places. And you're navigating for us with parents, you're navigating siblings in their wants and what they think should happen and your spouse is already feeling their story and feeling pulled and feeling all kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Pulled is a good word.
Speaker 2:So and in some families maybe that isn't the dynamic, but I think even if you feel like you grew up in a really tight knit family that does this well, you still fit into your story, you still have a purpose and a place in your family. That is good, but you also have a purpose and a place that is functional, yeah. So I think naturally, people are gonna be pulled regardless, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think the reason why I wanted to talk about that was just recognizing how easy it is to be against each other rather than for each other in these hard times, even when we're really, really trying to be for each other, like. I remember, you know, trying to be like, okay, what can I do, how can I do? And probably too much, and I think there were times that that got frustrating.
Speaker 1:And then here's the hard thing that shifts is my brain as the spouse, my brain goes pretty quickly back to like okay, what's normal day today look like, and that is often when heavy grief hits. It may be weeks or months after their loss that you're actually starting to feel some of the grief of them not being here anymore Because there's so much to do during the first stage. Sure.
Speaker 1:That it is often very much later and, as the spouse, we're not thinking about it anymore, we aren't recognizing oh, you might be off today because you're thinking about your mom, or you're thinking about your dad or something like that. We don't recognize those waves and then it's like, okay, well, why are you mad at me now? Right, those kind of things can definitely happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that certainly hits home. I think you know communication, which is gonna be hard. I think it's also important to remember communicating during this time. It's like it's not gonna be perfect, but trying to communicate your needs. Or if you're the spouse coming alongside of someone who's lost someone, of just asking good questions how can I help? What do you need? What's you know? What could I most do for you right now? Or what could I most space could I give you? Or would you like me near? Yeah, just kind of expressing all those things and trying to navigate it and figure it out together. But I think the not taking offense is a huge piece, but it's hard because anger is the stage of grief, so anger is going to come out.
Speaker 1:It's exactly right.
Speaker 2:How it's going to come out will be very individualized and might look like what anger normally looks like for you, or might not? Might not.
Speaker 1:No, I think the best words I can give people to describe the emotions around grief is a roller coaster. There are going to be up times, there's going to be down times. There's going to be time where you're feeling normal and times that you don't. And the hard part is it is such an individualized ride, plays to silent background. You need to, as a spouse, work really hard to recognize.
Speaker 1:One, that they're on the roller coaster of grief and two just what I can do to come alongside wherever they are in that place, and let that be okay. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and again, just allowing it to be what it is, as long as, you know, we're not doing things that are super harmful or hurtful to other people. Allow it to be what it is, but I'm sure there are spouses here saying, but what if it continues and goes down roads of what we've already actually talked about, of depression?
Speaker 1:or anxiety.
Speaker 2:Like I mean losing someone. If we're talking about that, kind of grief can bring anxiety too.
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely. And I think there is places where it gets to be what they call complicated grief. And while we've kind of titled this whole series a mental health and marriage series, grief is not actually a mental health issue. There is no timeline that says, oh you know, if it gets this bad or this long, then all of a sudden it's a problem. The idea is, you know, grief, we are supposed to have a range of emotions, a wide variety of them. We're exposed to express them and it's not wrong. There's nothing wrong with you for doing that. At the same time, you're correct, it can lead into something that looks like depression. It can lead into something like anxiety.
Speaker 1:It can become really complicated, where years and years later you're still feeling the very tangible sides of that grief, and I don't want to say that mellowed is the right word, but I guess it's become more functional, that it's become more around certain days or experiences. Yeah. You know their birthday comes up, or maybe Christmas, or you know, there's times that all of a sudden new memories flood back. That is very normal, grief. Sure.
Speaker 1:And for it to come that pointed for years and years and years. It's probably time to start talking with somebody and unpacking some of those stories of grief and loss.
Speaker 2:Right, there's nothing wrong with you, and I think that is an important distinction, that this isn't necessarily specifically mental health, but I think it lends into what we're saying and walking alongside of people losing someone or loss of a job, or loss of whatever loss of a friendship, it is trauma. Yes.
Speaker 2:So, even though it's not specifically, you know, classified by mental health professionals as a mental health issue, it does bring on trauma, and we also know that trauma brings up other trauma. So when you're going through trauma and grief being a trauma, these things can come up. So it may also be that it's more like a snowball effect.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right.
Speaker 2:This loss has happened in my life and now it's bringing up all kinds of other stuff that I have not really ever processed and I'm struggling, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that's exactly right. And, as the spouse, your job is to hold their hand through some of that, and there will be days where your job is to hear it. There will be days where your job is to distract them, to give them something else to think about, and there will be days where your job is to bring in the tissues that they need and just walk through whatever that is.
Speaker 1:Now we've mostly been talking about these times of grief where it's a little bit more individualized. My grief over your father was not nearly like yours, and vice versa. Right, there are times when our grief is mutual. Sure. And while we haven't really experienced that in our marriage, we've walked with several people who have, and it obviously brings a deeper conflict.
Speaker 2:I was going to say yeah, I was going to say we have just not over the loss of a person. I think.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:Like we've and I think this is important to bring up because people talk about it all the time and wonder why it's so impacting them. We have the grief of Leaving a home church. We never thought we'd leave Like we didn't. We didn't start there and be on staff to think we would move on from there. So that's not to undermine. Loss of a child together, like that is, that is something, or even could be loss of a grandchild together, like Right, those things, yeah. But we have navigated sometimes the loss of something in our life together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think where I was going with it was just more Recognizing that you are both on two different roller coasters exactly you weren't. While you're going through the same thing, your cars are going different directions and that can be really difficult because one person needs to talk at another time. Somebody wants fun and Somebody else feels like you're denying the person's existence if you're having fun Versus you know. You know wanting to be in a certain mood or whatever. Yeah that's the challenge is that you're grieving through the same thing differently.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm and the most important thing I can tell you is Just be very cautious Not to assume that the other person isn't grieving right or isn't grieving the way you are, and it may look different at this certain stage or certain time. It may have looked different than yours, but you're both grieving and so that means there's a lot of emotions, and this is one of those times.
Speaker 1:I really really highly advise people to get some marriage counseling and talk with somebody, because it you know, loss of a child in a relationship is something that can really damage a marriage if you're not careful.
Speaker 2:Oh well, it's just so. I mean, I can't even imagine more speaking as people have not experienced it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I just can't even imagine it's so horrendous right, and so it pulls at you in many different directions, in just feeling like you know what, if you've done differently or done more, done Whatever, and it's very difficult to Just maintain good communication through that. So that's sometimes why having some people to walk with you, in that space is really important.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, walking what I just said to you of like losing a grandchild, you as parents are supporting your child who's lost a child. That can be very complex as well and you have the grief of losing your grandchild, like there's just so much, you know, I just kind of it's fathomless in my brain and I haven't experienced it, so I can't even imagine the complexities and the difficulties of walking as a couple through that and supporting your child and the child who's married into your family and yep. So, just yeah, have community around you that can help, but also know like it is a very okay, good thing to have professionals help you oh, of course, navigate it Of course.
Speaker 1:So I hope that that gives you guys some ideas of how to navigate together and through a period of grief. That's something that we're all gonna experience at some point, and actually coming through that together, I think can really strengthen your marriage. But it's so important that you work through that communication, that you take time for each other and you actually allow each other to express your emotions through whatever is going on in that grief, so I hope that's helpful. We're going to conclude our series on mental health actually next week talking about stress in your marriage, another thing that every couple has to deal with and how you guys can navigate that together and taking care of each other in the midst of that.
Speaker 1:So, join us next week for that, and we hope that you continue your journey of still becoming one Until next time. I'm Brad Aldrich.
Speaker 2:And I'm Kate Aldrich. Be kind and take care of each other.
Speaker 1:Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich Ministries. For more information about Brad and Kate's coaching ministry courses and speaking opportunities, you can find us at aldrichministriescom For podcast show notes and links to resources in all of our social media. Be sure to visit us at stillbecomingonecom and don't forget to like this episode wherever you get your podcasts, and be sure to follow us to continue your journey on Still Becoming One.