Too often, we hear tearful stories about how a church or pastor ignored the signs of abuse or even participated in the manipulation of Scripture to justify the abuse in marriage. In today's episode, we tackle this ugly side of how the church can miss abuse while they are trying to support marriages. We look at sexual abuse and manipulation, physical abuse, spiritual abuse, and even discuss what emotional abuse looks like.
Navigating the murky waters of marital abuse and the misuse of spiritual texts to justify control in relationships, we uncover the challenges and seek to offer a better way to actually support marriages!
Too often, we hear tearful stories about how a church or pastor ignored the signs of abuse or even participated in the manipulation of Scripture to justify the abuse in marriage. In today's episode, we tackle this ugly side of how the church can miss abuse while they are trying to support marriages. We look at sexual abuse and manipulation, physical abuse, spiritual abuse, and even discuss what emotional abuse looks like.
Navigating the murky waters of marital abuse and the misuse of spiritual texts to justify control in relationships, we uncover the challenges and seek to offer a better way to actually support marriages!
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
Speaker 2:We are Brad and Kate and our more than 20 years of marriage. We've survived both dark times and experienced restoration.
Speaker 1:Now as a licensed marriage counselor and relationship coaches. We help couples to regain hope and joy.
Speaker 2:We invite you to journey with us, as we are Still Becoming One.
Speaker 1:Let's start the conversation. Hello everyone, and welcome to Still Becoming One.
Speaker 2:Welcome back.
Speaker 1:We're glad you're here today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are doing this at night. That's different. For us, it's actually like dark outside. The windows might be snowing here in PA, which would be exciting.
Speaker 1:Yes, we could use a good snow, although with break and all that kind of stuff, it feels like the kids have not been in school a whole lot.
Speaker 2:They pretty much haven't.
Speaker 1:Our public school is like.
Speaker 2:January let's ease back into things. I'm not sure who they're easing back in, I guess the teachers mainly. But yes, our kids are home for a good portion of January. I mean, they're home today, they're home this coming Friday and the next.
Speaker 1:Monday Wow.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so we're hoping for a little snow here. I don't know where y'all live, but Pennsylvania the last couple years has not gotten much snow Not produced the snow. And we grew up here and usually there was a couple of good snow storms.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:At least at least one, so, but anyways, yeah. So today our kids head off and I had a procedure done this morning. That was just a routine procedure, because you know I'm old, and it was really interesting. The nurse who was with me as I was like coming out of being under anesthesia was apparently reading my tattoos while, which is- kind of awesome.
Speaker 2:I was like, okay, not creepy but a little, but totally okay, I mean, I'm the one who has them on my body and I've gotten quite a few that deal with my story work and the work that I've done. And she started a conversation with Brad and I about her story and it was just really, really interesting. I mean, of course, I'm like loopy.
Speaker 1:You were trying to hang with it. I could see you like, okay, I need to pay attention here. Well, I was like this movie wants to have a great conversation.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm not sure I remember my name at this point, but she was like what do you do for a living? And I was like I work for my husband and I was just sitting there like and. I was like honey, this is a lot right now for me, but she was just really cool and like so she read my tattoos and then she just proceeded to kind of share her story and some really hard parts of it.
Speaker 1:Do you want to share what some of your tattoos say, since everyone's now curious?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean they're not gonna mean anything to anyone else, but, like as I went through my story work, when you go through your story we actually find that many of the things that are attacked by the enemy and you struggle with are actually a strength God has given you, sure.
Speaker 2:That the enemy has tried to warp and distort. And so I, in trying to figure out what those negative things were that the enemy was trying to distort, also came up with the redemptive part, the gifts, the, and I had them tattooed on my arm so I can't forget them. So you know, like some of them like Justice Warrior, quiet Champion, discerning Shepardist like that's not gonna really mean much to anyone unless you've heard my story. But she just was moved and decided to tell us her story and all of like 10 minutes, it was really interesting. It was.
Speaker 2:It was just interesting. It's always just interesting to me who God puts in your path and who you know. You're just like, okay, we're having this conversation right now. Yeah. You know, because when we take off our masks, others are encouraged to take off theirs as well.
Speaker 1:You just happen to be under anesthesia while you catch yours off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean let's be brutally honest, I had other things off too, not just my mask, but you know it was.
Speaker 1:That's the way, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yes so, but yeah so it was just a really cool experience and just a kind of an encouragement I don't know to you, but it was an encouragement to me of what we're doing that people all have stories, every single one of us, and many of us they're complex. Well, all of us they're complex, and there's hurt in many of them and there's joy, and all of that together is is a lot for people to process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so it was just.
Speaker 2:It was just a really cool morning.
Speaker 1:This week I had the honor to launch. I've talked several times on the podcast of the groups that I do. I do a men's group usually men's group of guys dealing with unwanted sexual behavior and making changes. But we do a lot of story work in that group and this last week I had the honor of actually launching two groups. Yeah, so awesome 14 guys who are meeting from honestly around the world and getting to do and start some of their own story.
Speaker 1:So yeah that's always good, and in the first week I always read them one of my stories as kind of a part of introduction and kind of like, hey, I'm gonna go here with you guys too and also telling them a little bit about story work. So that's always an interesting thing to go through that and share that with other people.
Speaker 2:So yeah, absolutely, and we need that community and sometimes we need a random stranger getting a procedure like we just do and yeah, so that's what we've been doing this week, just, you know, spending our time with people hearing their stories. It is an honor.
Speaker 1:It is. It really is, and we often talk about it. In fact, I was just doing a kind of coaching class, teaching other people on on some ideas of coaching and one of the things that we talked about was walking into somebody's story is a sacred ground right that we need to see it as such and make sure we're holding it well. Yeah, and really seeing that, you know, we need to take care of people's stories and listen to them well and care for them well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even in that moment with that nurse, even though it was a little out of it, I wanted to give her my attention. When someone is, you know, being brave and being transparent, that is something we should always stop for it is. It is an honor to sit with someone in that and hold their story.
Speaker 1:Well, and yeah, it was just a really and, honestly, this fits really well with our theme today, because we're talking about a really important part of somebody's story right that we unfortunately often discover that the church has not held well for them.
Speaker 2:Well, and yes, not just our topic. Today we are doing a series. Yes, we are just really focusing on, like, what does the church get wrong about marriage? And we're not talking about any specific church, we're just talking in general, and our hearts are not to tear down the church. Our hearts are actually to see the church do it well, and I think that these topics need to be raised in order for that to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I see it not as a heart of desire, because I think I know so many pastors I know so often their heart is to help marriages, to see them Go through the struggle, but sometimes in the midst of that, they are ignoring some really big things, that that gets stuck and you know can honestly cause harm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. So what? Last week we just kind of introduced it and Spent a little bit of time talking about some of the more general nuances. What are we talking about today?
Speaker 1:So we're talking about this really important issue of when a church, or when the church, misses abuse hmm, and you know that that's obviously been in the news a lot. So, yes, we're talking, obviously sexual abuse. Hmm but in this context we're really talking about marital abuse, right Like so, something happening in a marriage and maybe a pastor trying to do some coaching with somebody, or pastoral care and missing that and or minimizing that, the impact of that, and, just kind of honestly, even allowing it to continue.
Speaker 2:I think it's very common.
Speaker 1:It's incredibly common.
Speaker 2:I, you know, just thinking over the women that I've worked with. There are some that this is this is true Currently for them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. It is literally why we get some clients sometimes, because they go. My pastor said this was fine and I didn't think it was, so I needed to go talk to somebody else and sometimes they come because they want.
Speaker 2:They want what we're offering, but they're still Uncertain of what their pastor saying is correct right Like they're not. They haven't even started to really question that and it's not our goal to tear down any pastor or any system, but when we See abuse happening like we have to speak out Absolutely so I think we need to actually start by kind of saying what do we mean by abuse?
Speaker 1:We're talking about Many different types of abuse, right? So, like I said, sexual abuse is a real thing and it is important that that is not ignored. That is really any time somebody uses Coercion or power over somebody for sexual gain, right?
Speaker 2:so but yeah, which of course probably leads to a lot of questions. Because right, because sex permissible in marriage, so how does it become abuse? But we can probably get there in a minute.
Speaker 1:Oh Well, and look, there's huge debates. I don't think there should be a debate, but you know, for a long time in history people have debated Can there be sexual abuse in marriage? And there be marital rape can there be well, same, yeah, same thing? And the answer is yes, there can, right like so, but it and it happens, and just having that ignored is a problem and. I'm gonna add in here, you know, something that we hear all too often is, maybe not directly, sexual abuse, but sexual coercion that.
Speaker 1:Women are told it is usually women that are told this that that they are told if they just had sex more often with their husbands Then he wouldn't be looking at porn. He wouldn't be cheating on her he wouldn't be unhappy with her, that it is her responsibility to have sex and Give that as a coercion issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's so destructive, so okay, so that's one, because you said you're in so okay, so we'll just go down that and that'll be well, and that's okay.
Speaker 1:So sexual abuse was, is one that we obviously want to talk about physical abuse or domestic violence, yeah. But another big category is spiritual abuse, and we've had a whole podcast before on Pastoral spiritual abuse, or like a church is spiritual abuse. But we wanted to kind of break it down and look at Marital spiritual abuse and what that looks like too and then also emotional abuse, which they spiritual and emotional kind of mesh.
Speaker 2:But you can have emotional abuse without spiritual abuse, and I will say we're gonna, we'll get there right.
Speaker 1:But emotional is the tough one. It is right and I think sometimes that one actually can go sometimes too far. That we're naming things as abuse, that it's like, hey, we're missing each other and and there's two sides to one story.
Speaker 2:So, look, we're gonna come down on a lot of sides on this right and and yeah, because we haven't figured out how to have a voice, then we yeah, it can. It can start to look like the only safe way is to claim that it's emotional abuse and so correct, yeah, we can. We can try to give that some definition for people.
Speaker 2:That's, but ultimately it's not our, it's not our decision like if you, if you think that's what's happening, like it's not our, we can certainly help you talk through it, but it's not our job to right claim your wrong.
Speaker 1:So let's start back at Sexual abuse. Okay, right, so we all, we can all understand very easily that it is wrong to coerce Mm-hmm in somebody into sexual behaviors that they're not comfortable with, and that that should include Inside of marriage.
Speaker 2:That it definitely does, but so help our listeners. Like what does that line look? Like what does? When does that become abusive?
Speaker 1:Well, the this isn't easy, right? Because what I hear often from men who Talk about this is they throw around first Corinthians 7. And first Corinthians 7 does clearly say it does link Temptation towards sexual immorality or or acting out sexually Mm-hmm to having healthy sexual relationships, right? And so it does talk about and says husband should give his wife sexual relationships, and likewise the wife to her husband. Neither of them have authority over their own body, and yet they have authority over each other's body and they should not deprive each other of sexual relationships except for, perhaps, an agreement of time that they do so. So with that verse there seems to be this standard that either one of them should be able to demand sex when they want it and that that should just be okay because, well, they need it, kind of idea and I think that is very much taking that verse out of context that the idea, yes, is saying sex is for marriage and that's a good thing, but it's not saying that you can demand it of your spouse.
Speaker 2:Right, I agree.
Speaker 1:So this issue of you know, trying to navigate what healthy asking for sex is is an issue that many couples wrestle with. There are times that people get fed up with the pursuing their spouse. And so then they go to the spiritual abuse, spiritually, sexually abusing them by pulling out these kind of verses and saying they're wrong by depriving them and they need to just give it up.
Speaker 2:Right, and then, which is what our series is all about they pull their church leadership in and get them involved in further harming right, and this can happen. The other direction it's just in the church, historically Is it. Is it happening out amongst people?
Speaker 1:In books and all that kind of stuff, absolutely.
Speaker 2:That women would be using this verse to coerce their husbands who are not feeling like they want to or whatever. Yes, but the church historically has done this to women. I don't know of too many, or have heard of too many times where it's done in the opposite direction.
Speaker 1:I don't know that I've ever heard a woman using this verse to coerce their husband. I'm sure it's probably happened. We have we have talked with some.
Speaker 2:There's definitely low drive guys and we have talked with some higher drives wives that pull it out Right Now. I don't know that they're necessarily like using it in the bedroom as force, but they're saying isn't this what it's supposed to be Like? Isn't he supposed to?
Speaker 1:But I don't the church has not typically taken that stance. Yeah, typically going that route.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think we need to go back and look at historically what. Why did this get created in the church? Well, we have the verse, but we also have the church not knowing how to deal with pornography and adultery Correct In the way that it needs to be dealt with. Just tell wives. We don't know the answer and probably leadership sometimes are struggling with the same things.
Speaker 1:There is no, I don't know the answer. I mean and I'm going to indirectly quote the podcast the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill that there were specific times where the pastors of Mars Hill told women that if they wanted their husbands to be a better man, to be, a better church leader to come, even to come to church, that they need to go home and give him oral sex in order to make him happy. So he would come to church.
Speaker 2:And that is you. I mean that's just beyond what I like. Don't get me started on that, but I do think there are churches that don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:I agree.
Speaker 2:And with the infidelity in a marriage, either through pornography or through an adultery. You know an adulterous relationship, and so they're just like well, just give your husband more sex, and then it wouldn't be a problem.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:Because they're not educated, they take this verse out of context and they don't know what else to do. Oh, there are churches like Mars Hill and lots of others who've gone even further and just like taking it and used it as a weapon. I think there's ignorance, which isn't excusable, and then there's actually intentionality oh, 100%, and I think they are different.
Speaker 1:They are different and you know, I do see this a lot where, instead of teaching men how to healthy pursue their wives, and with empathy. Understand that the union of sexual relationship is supposed to be out of both of the, both of you coming together. Instead of that, they have gone to a place of using control. And that is edging on sexual abuse in my mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Like, and don't get us wrong, like there can be, you know, with a couple there can be like I'm not sure, right, you as a couple mutual.
Speaker 1:That is totally different than somebody forced.
Speaker 2:Correct, but it but I think people come up with the question of like but what about if you don't really want to and you do, and no, there's not.
Speaker 1:That is care for each other. That is you know what. I love them so I can get my head around this. It is not a place of getting your arm twisted, and I really don't want to. But I'm feeling like I have to because scripture tells me to.
Speaker 2:But a lot of women voluntarily do it because scripture tells them to, and my challenge would be a little off topic but if that is happening all the time, that is not God's intent, it is not, and I correct, it's not, I think.
Speaker 1:I think it is something that we need to talk about of. Why is it that it is not enjoyable for that? Woman as well. No, it's. I'm not saying this is a physical issue. It may be an emotional intimacy issue, it may be a connection issue, it may be. It may be a physical or their own story issue, but those should not be ignored just because the guy wants as much as he wants.
Speaker 2:Correct and I'm not saying I'm not saying that that should be a reason, but there are a lot of times that women are keeping themselves in this place.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:And I think that my challenge is like that's also not the heart, so let's ask some different questions, but that's a little bit of a different topic. So yeah, and so this is happening in marriages and churches are encouraging it, and it is wrong, it is harmful, it is abusive and it is destructive to marriages.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I do think you know we're gonna have a whole different topic on how the church should be addressing sex, because that is a major problem where churches are not right but you know, I think it does go into how do we do healthy, glorified sexual education that says sex is good in marriage and. And start there and say if that's not happening, we need to look at the why of the relationship that's supposed to be building towards that. Right absolutely stop condemning wives just for not doing it.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, that's that would be the start, right? So okay, so that's sexual abuse, and I'm only gonna gloss over what we would consider domestic violence, because it's a little bit more cut and dry and in my experience, it is one of those things that churches seem to do a little better. So that would be actual physical violence that is happening finally, yes, historically, that's not historically that's not true. But more recently I'm finding Churches will stand and go. Nope, that's not okay to actually hit your spouse.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't always have to be hitting, but there can be other forms of your exact. Violence that you're leaving marks and restraining in ways that are. Yeah, there can be all kinds of things.
Speaker 1:So, I think that is still one that sometimes is missed, but I think it's better. You know, more recently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we, we can all kind of agree that that's a problem. You know, we're gonna move on to More emotional. Let's do spiritual abuse actually first. Yeah, because again this, this aligns very closely to what we were just saying. It was sexual abuse. I see spiritual abuse in marriage as being when one person is using Scripture to coerce, manipulate, blame, smack around what you know the other person, not physically but but emotionally, by saying, like you know, look, this is where it says you're wrong, this is. And look, I do know that scripture is used to reproofed it to, but the way scripture does it is Gentle. Through the Holy Spirit, it is kindness that brings us to repentance. Too often I see outright anger being used through scripture to convince somebody that they're wrong.
Speaker 2:Hmm, okay, yeah, tell me more about that, because I also know that lots of times I work with people on helping them understand that anger is a normal emotion. So what? What are you seeing in that that? Anger is is totally a normal emotion the church Unfortunately ostracizes people with anger, but we don't push into passive-aggressive, we don't correct. Which is this is a little bit different.
Speaker 1:This isn't spiritual, but I'm curious what you mean by that so I I think what I mean is Really the issue is, my spouse is not doing what I want. So then I'm going to go and find scriptures that say what they should be doing differently, usually ignoring the scriptures that tell me what I should be doing differently.
Speaker 2:Sure, I get that part and then use them.
Speaker 1:Instead of yelling at somebody that they're wrong, I'm gonna use the scripture to show them Look, you're wrong.
Speaker 2:They're not actually using anger in it as well.
Speaker 1:I think it's. I think it's manipulation anger.
Speaker 2:That kind of stuff. I would just challenge that what we do with anger is the problem can be the problem, not the actual anger, because I Do also this is a little side note and a little pet peeve of mine. If the church would actually let people experience anger and help them Access it in healthy ways, we wouldn't have all these unhealthy, unhealthy accesses of it. And so it really is what you do with your anger. But I don't always think manipulation comes from anger. I think it comes from lots of other deep-seated Fear and your own insecurities. But manipulation I 100% agree with that. That is, that is what's happening and you are. That is a power play.
Speaker 2:Yeah and that is, that is not the heart of Jesus and why he came for all of us.
Speaker 1:And look, this is something I enjoy Debating with people like where are we going with that?
Speaker 1:at times, right Like cuz. I've worked with Met it as a pastor. I've worked with several men who have used scripture to manipulate their wives and you know, I've had the wonderful opportunity to meet with a few who wanted to kind of talk through this scripture, you know this or that or the other thing that they say. Well, my wife isn't doing this, so she's wrong. We need to correct her in that and I love having those conversations with guys because it is so easy To pull out scripture that says, hey, wait a minute, we need to be gentle mm-hmm we need to be kind and Very clearly.
Speaker 1:We need to work on our own things first mm-hmm so it it is Abundantly clear that it is not scriptures not to be used as a weapon For in, especially in marriage.
Speaker 1:Honestly, in any relationship right, yeah, no 100% and I think the church gets caught in this constantly because they're like, well, yes, it does say that, right, and and they get wishy-washy and Don't want to call somebody who's using scripture on their stuff right, and and I Guess probably also what I'm sitting here thinking for our listeners is like but what happens when you see your church doing this to you, or another marriage or another couple, right, what do we do?
Speaker 1:So I I honestly think this is a place where we should be. You know, walking very closely with our church. If you see a pastor or church, you know doing this, using scripture to manipulate somebody. There are so many scriptures to move in a different direction right that we can't cherry-pick scripture. Mm-hmm and just go. Oh look, you're not doing this, and you know? One that I enjoy pulling out is Colossians 319, which just says husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm so you find this guy who's being overly harsh with scripture. It's like well, wait a minute, it's so clear. This is not how we're supposed to be. Mm-hmm, this does not bring about change. Yeah so I'm not even saying that they're wrong. It's this their approach is wrong. Mm-hmm. Right so and I'm saying I you know, if you're hearing a pastor, do this from the pulpit, well, that's it. That's one thing. I think most of the time this is happening in the counseling room.
Speaker 2:Correct, this is like one and one, one on one meetings mostly, or I think couples right right if you're hearing it from the pulpit. Guys, I can't tell you what to do, but that's not a yellow flag anymore.
Speaker 2:No, that's a red flag get out, because that doesn't lead to anything good. But if you hear you experience it yourself or you hear someone else experiencing it, like you are a part of a church Family for a reason and and I would encourage you to push back on leadership Help me understand your stance on this. Help me understand, you know, go ask questions right, because sometimes things are misconstrued with them. These Situations because most couples are coming in, or are hurting space they're hurting.
Speaker 2:But you know, if we want our churches in our communities to be a good thing, to have impact, we have to push back when we see these things happening. And when you push back with a heart of kindness and curiosity, I think their response will tell you everything you need to know, right, if they are open and, oh my word, like that would never be, I can see how that could have potentially gotten misconstrued. You know, just if they're open and if they're like not, and very hard and fast. That is concerning Correct.
Speaker 1:That is concerning so let's just, for a minute, hit emotional abuse Cause. I hope you can hear I've been pretty solid and hard on all of the rest of these and this is one that I probably get a little wishy-washy, and I'll even say why. In many couples, as soon as there is conflict, as soon as there is disagreement, it is very easy to see what looks like emotional abuse from either one side.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, and so if all you do is hear one person's side, it is very easy to pull out and blame emotional abuse on the other person, and I think that's another problem that churches can get wrong is by doing things like saying, wow, your spouse is being emotionally abusive, when they've never talked to that spouse.
Speaker 2:That's a problem. Well, and I think with emotional abuse, when I sit with people and hold their stories, the challenge that I have is either we have to give a pretty definitive hard line standard of what emotional abuse is let's see if this makes sense to you or we have to own that all of us.
Speaker 1:Can be emotionally abusive at times.
Speaker 2:Have been, not even can be, or we have to own that in our 20, almost 25 years of marriage. There are times I have done that to you and you have done that to me, or we have to give it a very hard definition. I have to be honest. I don't know where to fall on that.
Speaker 1:if I'm honest, yeah, look, I totally do not think things like name calling calling somebody, an idiot, saying you're dumb, like I do not think those things are okay, so don't hear that. But I also know that in conflict we get frustrated, we get upset and we end up saying highlighter moments that we should not.
Speaker 2:But isn't it really, isn't it to give it emotional abuse? And I think maybe that's where some of it really does flesh out. It's not the moments here or there, it is when it is a constant erosion. So you even say name calling when a spouse, husband or wife, no gender, we're not making any gender here it constantly undermines a spouse by constantly calling them derogatory or demeaning names in front of other people, in front of their children, like to me. That's when it becomes abusive, because you're not just in a moment of frustration now having something you need to ask forgiveness for and repair. You're using it on a regular basis to have power over yourself.
Speaker 1:And that's exactly when it would be emotionally abusive is not just, it's a fight, it is a regular pattern that is happening, that is manipulating and about power than anything else.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think it's that power key too, because we can also unfortunately this is why it's so sticky we can have things where we get stuck because we don't understand our past, we don't understand our story, and they may not be great qualities about us, but they're not also about well. Many times they're about control, which we don't realize, but they're not necessarily about power, like I'm trying to put you under my thumb, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:The problem and I was just wanting to pull out, like some of the definitions that people use. You are exactly right. It is so easy to pin on anybody, especially if you're only talking to one person's perspective. So, some of the definitions are things like somebody is hyper-critical or judgmental, they ignore your boundaries. They're passive or possessive or controlling. They're manipulative. They often dismiss your feelings.
Speaker 3:So think about how often those kind of things happen in a conflicted marriage.
Speaker 2:Or in conflict, so like to me it has to be those things are happening regularly.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not even saying those things are not okay, Like I don't know, let me go on a record and say that's not okay that that's happening, but it is a sign of needing extensive marital help, not necessarily that your spouse is an abusive person. Because it's so easy from one person's perspective to see all those things from happening. There is emotional abuse that's above and beyond that. That is regularly using humiliation, name calling, putting down threats, fear that's a different level.
Speaker 2:There's no ability to actually own it. And it's happening. When I say regularly, these things would be happening daily, weekly. And the spouse is not. They're so in their zone. There's no ability to be like oh honey, I'm so sorry. Well, unless they are in the abuse cycle where they apologize and then, oh yeah, that's part of it, and then, but there's no like real humility and recognition of what's happening.
Speaker 1:What that looks like. So here's and this goes to all of these this is my question for pastors, or for you as a church member, is does your pastor know what signs of actual abuse are? Are they aware of what they are? Are they even do they have any training in that and do they have any resources in that? Ask them like what would you do, if you like, go to the extreme, if you met somebody who was being physically abused by their spouse? What would you do? Right, like, and then you can start to see what are some options here of, maybe where the pastors need some training, maybe where they can get some help and support Like our. The whole reason we're doing this is not to tear down the church, but it's actually to go. We can do better.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Because we need to be able to do better to actually support marriages.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know. Just a caveat on the end here Like I don't, I've heard many times from women you know, but the pastor will remind me that I made a covenant and that is. That is your own abuse, that is manipulation and that is because you don't know what to do with an abusive relationship. You will manipulate them to stay married, which obviously Brad and I are for.
Speaker 2:Marriage Like that is that is our heart, and even people who struggle with an abusive behavior, depending on what it is sometimes they can get counseling and have freedom and help. Oh yeah. Right, we're not condemning that every time something like this happens that you know there needs to be divorced and separation.
Speaker 1:No, there needs to be help.
Speaker 2:But sometimes there does.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, if somebody's unable or unwilling to get help, then they have left the covenant of marriage, but you can't lord that over people.
Speaker 2:That is you're actually a necessary to abuse.
Speaker 1:Now Correct Right, I totally agree with you, and what I said is is what I firmly believe. If somebody is staying in continuing to abuse after they've been called on it, after they've been, you know, brought it to their attention, after they've tried to get some help for them, and they're continuing to abuse their spouse, then they have left the covenant of marriage Because they're not honoring their cherishing with their spouse anymore. So that's an important thing to think about, and I think it is something that we, as a church body, need to do better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a lot to think on.
Speaker 1:So this is a heavy one, obviously dealing with abuse, but we really think the church can and should do better, because that's just going to grow marriages across the board, and that's what we're all about. So we would love to hear from some of you Is this something you talk about in your church? Have you found helpful resources? Is it something that you're like, desperate to get some help for your pastor from? You know, send us a message. We would love to hear from you. If you have questions, you can email us at help at stillbecomingonecom, or you can find us on social media Instagram, facebook all of those at stillbecomingone as well. We would love to hear from you in your journey on this and you know what, if you're brave, we would love to hear how your experience of talking to your pastor, talking to your church, about abuse impacted your marriage. So we really thank you for that and we look forward to continuing this conversation. That's all for this week on Still Becoming One. Until next time. I'm Brad Aldrich.
Speaker 2:And I'm Keith Aldrich. Be kind and take care of each other.
Speaker 1:Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich Ministries. For more information about Brad and Kate's coaching ministry courses and speaking opportunities, you can find us at aldrichministriescom For podcast show notes and links to resources in all of our social media. Be sure to visit us at stillbecomingonecom and don't forget to like this episode wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to follow us to continue your journey on Still Becoming One.