We hear it all the time: one spouse desperate for help and the other refusing even to consider going. We peel back the layers of resistance that often shroud the path to relationship coaching, exploring why it might be happening and what you can do to help.
We hear it all the time: one spouse desperate for help and the other refusing even to consider going. We peel back the layers of resistance that often shroud the path to relationship coaching, exploring why it might be happening and what you can do to help.
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast. We are Brad and Kate.
Speaker 2:In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've survived both dark times and experienced restoration.
Speaker 1:Now as a licensed marriage counselor and relationship coaches. We help couples to regain hope and joy.
Speaker 2:We invite you to journey with us, as we are still becoming one.
Speaker 1:Let's start the conversation. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Still Becoming One.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good morning, good afternoon or whatever time. It is where you are, wherever you're listening right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we are glad to be back.
Speaker 2:The sun is shining. It is, and I feel like I often report in the weather.
Speaker 1:It's heading towards spring. The sun makes me happy.
Speaker 2:Good thing I can understand that. Guys, thanks for talking to us. It's a Tawny Phil. How do you say his name? You don't know. We live in Pennsylvania and what we're going to have? A less, less winter according to.
Speaker 1:We have less in winter. I didn't even look.
Speaker 2:According to the legend that's very much based on whether the sun is out or not, whether he sees his shadow or not.
Speaker 1:I have no idea. It's not like we had that much winter anyway.
Speaker 2:It's true, but we here in Pennsylvania decide all of that on a groundhog. The sun is out, spring is coming, according to the groundhog, and how are we?
Speaker 1:I think we're doing well. I think we've gone through some stressful things, but I think you and I have really managed to learn how to ride the waves a little bit better. Take care of each other.
Speaker 2:We could be professional surfers at this point. Let's see. Let's go and try it and see if it translates to surfing, maybe not. Yes it's winter and there are patterns with our certain kiddo with mental health challenges and we're learning more about those when they're happening and stuff.
Speaker 1:February has been historically a long month for us, so it's great to be back on the podcast, and we were just sitting here chatting about just what we're seeing, what we're hearing from people and really trying to think about what we wanted to share with you guys. We talked about a theme that she's seeing often in some of the women that she's talking to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just the theme of working specifically with wives, obviously, because I do work with women who are not married, but wives who are wanting to seek their own health but desperately wanting their husbands to make some moves in that direction, and then, of course, for that to end up in both of them being able to move closer to each other, understanding each other better but feeling very much like they're the only ones that are doing that, for various reasons.
Speaker 1:And I just had breakfast this morning with a group of pastors who honestly told me pretty much the same thing that they see so many people where the wives are looking for help and they can't convince their husbands to reach out for help. It happens all the time. I think it is more often that direction.
Speaker 2:Okay, what do you mean by that direction?
Speaker 1:Where the wives are the ones trying to get husbands help. I think I see some that goes the other way. I do actually have some clients, that guys who are working on themselves and working on stuff for them and they would like their wife to join but she's resistant for one way or another. So it does happen, but it is much, much more common. The other direction.
Speaker 2:Why do you think that is?
Speaker 1:Well, I think historically Historically counseling coaching has often placed a lot of blame on the guys for being the problem. So I think there is part of it. That is, this attitude that if I go see somebody with you, they're just going to say it's all my problem.
Speaker 2:Is that a perception or a reality?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. I think it is often a perception, but it can also happen.
Speaker 2:Well, sure, but it could also happen that the wife could be feeling very blamed.
Speaker 1:Yes, of course that does happen, but look, we're often talking I mean, we talk here in the podcast about things like emotional intimacy and connecting with your spouse and, at least in the United States, it is usually the men who are the ones who are less emotionally inclined and less emotionally connected to their spouse. So they kind of know automatically that there's something missing, that maybe they don't even know how to do. But so I think that's part of it. Like they recognize that healthy relationship is going to take something that they aren't doing right now and maybe don't know how to, and that's a lot of work. They probably recognize that. Well, I'm just going to go very stereotypical here, but they probably recognize that or think that sex is not really going to be a part of it. So the fact that they see a lack of desire or lack of interest in connecting sexually from their spouse somehow often is less important in at least what they assume is less important in coaching and counseling ministries.
Speaker 2:Well, that might be historically true, but I think that's just because counselors aren't I'm just going to call it out here they aren't willing to go there, correct. But I would push back on the fact that women are already feeling like they're failing in that area because the church is telling them if there's a problem of sex in their marriage.
Speaker 1:It's their fault.
Speaker 2:They just right. So, like I yeah, I don't know, I obviously don't have the male perspective, but I would. I don't know. That feels like so much of a perception to me, unless you've actually tried it.
Speaker 1:No, it certainly is a perception and I think it's a fear, but I think most guys are feeling like they're just going to be told they're not doing enough chores, they're not helping out with the kids enough and they're the fault of the disconnection. So they need to do this magical emotional intimacy thing and make everything better.
Speaker 2:What does that have to do with chores, though?
Speaker 1:But that's what a lot of couple fights start.
Speaker 2:Correct, but like I think and I'm we're just, we're just pushing on this Like I think that as we work with couples, we find that happening a lot?
Speaker 1:Oh, it happens all the time. No, and perception is often skewed, right? I don't want to in any way say I'm not supportive of women here. I mean, you know, statistics show that even when both partners have full-time jobs, like 80% of household chores still land on the women, like that's not okay, right? Like the meals and clothes and you know, dishes, like those are shared chores that should be talked about.
Speaker 2:Now.
Speaker 1:I know some families have one person working full-time and one person working less than that or staying at home, and that is maybe a little bit more obvious of why there's some chore differences. But historically, yes, men don't do near as much around the home, even if their partner is working just as much as they are. So I agree that is part of the problem. I think most guys know it and yet they don't really want to change it, so they avoid going anywhere. That's going to tell them to change it.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting statement. They don't really want to change it. Tell me more about that. Oh man, I'm just I'm sorry guys.
Speaker 1:I'm just digging us all in the hole here.
Speaker 2:No, I'm honestly trying to understand because we have we went through a journey In this, I would say, to some extent. But we, thankfully you didn't ever enter in without feeling like you should be somewhat helpful to me, no matter if I was staying home with the kids or working or so, like I didn't have to fight that completely by any means, thankfully. But yeah, like, why don't you want to change that if it helps your wife and it helps the burden, and then leave space for other things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I don't. I mean I think that's the stereotypical right, is that side? I do know guys and I have talked with guys who are doing all of those right. I do want to say there are guys out there who are they're doing the laundry, every day they're doing a lot of the cooking.
Speaker 2:They're doing all of it. That's not the answer either.
Speaker 1:But I think it tends to kind of go in that side that either it's the woman doing a bulk of it or it's the guy doing a bulk of it right, I think. I think it is hard to hit 50-50.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, so I don't want to say that this is always the case it does certainly happen that husbands are doing a lot of helping out a lot of you know the household, helping the household run things and that that isn't always the issue. But I do think sometimes that's where a lot of conflict starts, is wives feel absolutely overwhelmed in a 24-7 job of caring for kids in home. That doesn't end and they get frustrated to the point of saying why aren't you helping? And then that leads into an argument of we need to go see somebody because this isn't working right, like that's how it so often comes about, that guys are like great, you're taking me to the principal to get scolded for not doing my part, and I think that's why guys don't want to go. Many times.
Speaker 2:Okay, I hear that. I honor that. I think many times it's so much deeper than that.
Speaker 1:Oh, please. I so know there's so much more going on, but I think the perception is I'm being told to go to somewhere to make me shape up.
Speaker 2:Right, I guess my question would be if you think that's all they're going to tell you, why aren't you just doing it?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, if I'm gonna take the answer that.
Speaker 2:So you're controversial today.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, if I'm gonna take, the answer that I hear from guys when I'm talking to them is you know, my spouse doesn't understand how much work I'm doing, how much stress I'm under. They don't get that when I come home I'm exhausted and.
Speaker 1:I've given all I can at work and I'm trying to, actually, you know, do that Mm-hmm. They, you know, don't meet my needs, so why should I take things off their plate, right Like? I've heard guys say that kind of stuff and I would say that I'm thinking of a situation where it is a Stay-at-home mom, but with little ones.
Speaker 2:And right, and that's hard, it is hard but no, no, I that's hard for me to hear, not that I mean I do honor that, you know, as a husband, if you, if it's the typical year out of the house working, like, I honor that, that there is a lot, that you are doing a lot of stress, all of that Completely. But I do think there is a misconception that stay-at-home moms are just sitting around doing nothing all day.
Speaker 2:Of course, and then I think I, I think I get it that you're exhausted when you come home. I think most times when we hear this, though, if we're being honest, like a lot of times the wives are saying but you know, my husband's Sitting doing his hobby or watching TV or on his phone while I continue, correct, right, because your job doesn't end at the end of the day, right and so. Not to have this fight for anyone, that's not.
Speaker 1:I just think we're getting stuck in places that actually don't matter, right and but we, we started this conversation trying to understand why Me trying to understand why it's such a resistance thing for husbands to want to go Get some help but I think it it really does come down from to this point, and I think this is a good one to start talking about right, because if we can see that some of the reason why guys don't want to Get help is because they think they're being sent to the principal to just be told by somebody else what they're doing wrong in order to shape up and do better right, then why do I want to spend money to go do that?
Speaker 1:That like that gets into this this whole idea of why would I go Go Spend money for somebody to just tell me that I'm being a jerk right, like because that's the perception, even if there's much more going on right, and I would encourage that If you are here going and I really do want to get my my spouse into coaching I really want them to help discover why these things are going on for them, not not just change their behavior, but I would want to help them get some insight, want to help them understand each other better, like part of it is how do you approach that conversation? Because it probably should not happen After a you're wrong argument that says, like you aren't doing these things. See, now you need to go here, you know, in order for somebody to agree with me right.
Speaker 1:Like that's, that's what it sounds like. Mm-hmm and trying to approach it as if we need help To navigate through. How do we get to be closer? Or?
Speaker 2:how do?
Speaker 1:we Reconnect or how do we communicate better, or whatever your goal would be, but having it being a we rather than a you mm-hmm, okay, I hear that.
Speaker 2:um, still, this is, this is a challenge, this is a challenging topic, I think. I do think, obviously, if a spouse I'm not gonna go gender neutral here with like Feels like you need a third party to help, then yes, it definitely needs to be a conversation that is, you know, sharing your heart of, like I want us to be closer, I want us to be able to to work well together, communicate well together, like I want there to be connection, I want all of these things, so that conversation should definitely be Sort of entered into in that way instead of you need help.
Speaker 2:I understand, I understand that and I and I get that.
Speaker 1:Unless there's something very specific that you can see as a very specific goal, that you want your spouse to work on, and they're aware of it. I think going for the we is so much more helpful. Right Instead of and I have seen this right. We've had recent situations where somebody says you know it, it seems like you're really stuck in this area. Why don't you go to coaching to try and figure that, that out? Or you know, every time we argue, this stuff comes up.
Speaker 2:So why don't you?
Speaker 1:go and work on that so we can get through this roadblock. You know that kind of stuff I think can be, can be helpful and certainly, you know, with some of the work that I do, I have women say, hey, I think you need some extra help with this unwanted sexual behavior area. That only works if the guys are also agreeing that they want that help. But you know those. Sometimes it is specific. But I think if it's not a, you know, if it's just I'm feeling disconnected from you or I'm feeling like we're not communicating like we used to, then I think it should be a very much a we. How do we work on changing this?
Speaker 2:Well, sure, but that's if you're going together.
Speaker 1:Well, I would think that the goal in that case is to go together.
Speaker 2:Yes, the we should be considered because there are dynamics going on that have nothing to do with what you keep budding up against, and so trying to understand that for each of you, what's happening, what's at play, what's where the background, what's playing in the background, what, where did it come from? Is really important. So, yes, I do think it should be expressing that I want us to grow, I want us to be able to find healthy ways of navigating this, those kinds of things. So, yeah, I do think that the we needs to be the focus, but I think there needs to be an understanding that a lot of times, there's individual work to be done. Whether that happens individually or not, I guess, is less of a concern, but there's so much for us to understand about ourselves, to understand what's happening in a dynamic, and I think it can get focused on just let's figure out a solution to the chore problem.
Speaker 1:No, I would agree. I think one of the challenging dynamics, though, that that we do run into on occasion is this idea where, if you, as a wife, start working with a counselor, working with a coach and making some changes and doing some things, that that's great, it is even more challenging to then add your husband into that space because they are going to assume that that counselor coach has heard everything bad about them and is totally on your side and is there to support you and they're you know, they've heard their name and go.
Speaker 1:oh well, this person says X, y, z, right, like in your conversations and so the assumption is there 100% on your side. So it just amplifies this idea of I'm not going to your counselor so they can tell me what I'm doing wrong when they don't even know me Right, and so it gets very tricky to start couples after somebody is already done. Individual.
Speaker 2:Right, I wasn't necessarily suggesting you had to go to the same person. The wives that I work with you'd be surprised how how self perceptive they are and while they are trying to help me understand the dynamics going on, they're usually very respectful of their husbands and trying to say it in a way that is honest about their part in it Yep, and like their personal part in it and also trying to give context of what is happening in it. So, even though I understand that perception, I actually think People should remember that, believe it or not, most times people know they're going to a counselor who or a coach who's going to be asking hard questions of them and their dynamics.
Speaker 2:So and that is essential they're not just, they're not just coming in inventing.
Speaker 1:Correct. I would say that is an essential part and in fact we we say that's a really good way to get your partner into coaching is by saying Often like what are you working on?
Speaker 1:That is changes that your spouse is going to notice that they're going to see as a positive of you growing and you moving the needle, so it's not just going and complaining about them. There's a placed event, there's a place to you know. Have you those frustrations? But if you're not doing some work on these are the things that I need to do to make changes then you're not actually Helping the situation right, sure, absolutely so, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that Trying to figure out how to Approach your spouse about this is difficult. I think, remembering, no matter what, you can always work on you. Yeah, even if your spouse won't. But I've actually sometimes even heard spouses resistant to that.
Speaker 1:Right. Oh, resistant to you going right like what?
Speaker 2:why would you do enough for like that kind of stuff? But I believe you can seek health yourself. It will be impactful to you, will be, in fact, impactful to your marriage, no matter what. But so always knowing that you can do that, but then Trying to think about how you can approach your spouse in a way that says, like this is an us thing, not just, not just me like no matter what, yeah, we're both here and I really I totally agree with that and I really want to say that that should be a very vulnerable and very clear communication.
Speaker 1:And one of the dynamics that we've talked about before is this idea and again it usually happens with wives that wives will be asking their husband To go for help for a very long time. You know. They'll ask multiple times over multiple years to get help, to do something, to make changes to you know, and they'll they'll do that to the point where they finally say, okay, you're not gonna change, I'm done.
Speaker 2:I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm out and I'm you know. They'll prepare for divorce, they'll move out, they'll do something and it's at that moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah that he wakes up and goes oh, I guess I need to do something to change. And I've seen those guys who literally will tell me well, yeah, my wife's been asking for the last five years but I didn't think anything was that wrong, right, and now she's moved out, she's done and he's going. What can I do to get her back? And that is not the place you want to find yourself on either one of those well.
Speaker 2:Interesting, though, though I have a question, because you just said, like they, they I have a lot of husbands and we've seen wives to come to that space, but you said that they're like confused because they didn't think it was that bad. Yep, but then you've also said the leading reason they don't want to do it is because they don't want to be told.
Speaker 1:To change. They don't want to be told to do more chores and make everything better, right.
Speaker 2:So is it? They really don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1:Often I mean sometimes, sometimes they just don't think it's that serious, sometimes that they're like meh, you know, and not paying attention. They're very focused on their work or their other hobbies, like they just aren't you thinking this is a big deal and I guess I would caution anytime a spouse is saying we need a third party. It should be a big deal.
Speaker 2:It should be. It's not that it's a big deal. Someone is crying out for help and they're feeling lost, correct, and we need to underst Like I think and yes, sometimes this probably doesn't happen but if you think it in regards to your children, like if your child is crying out for help and that they're lost, you're not going to.
Speaker 1:Ignore it. Right, you're going to.
Speaker 2:And so I would challenge people to think of it that way.
Speaker 1:I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:And try to enter the process and see what can be learned from it, and I would totally agree with you, although I'm going to challenge, since I'm going to guess this podcast is going to be more likely listened to by the spouse who's asking for help you know to go rather than the other way around.
Speaker 1:I think most of the time one of the issues that's happening is those asks for help are only showing up during arguments. So it gets bad. It gets an argument and you blurt out like we need to go to counseling or we need somebody to help us because this is not okay. And then you know 48 hours later you're I'm not saying it's better, it's better to be functioning again and you don't revisit that topic and you know that's what it looks like to tell them and I think it just is goes away in this whole thing of yep, that was an argument and we just kind of discount it. I would really encourage anyone who is in this space, before you get to that place of I'm done, I'm moving out, and they wake up to the reality of where you're at.
Speaker 1:I would actually encourage you to have the vulnerable conversation of saying where we're at right now is not okay and I want us to change and this is not sustainable. Right, like, be direct and actually say we have to do something different because I can't live like this. Right and be open. Be direct. You know no one likes to throw out the word divorce, but if you're getting to that place where you see yourself as the easy out is not easy, you see the out as you know. All right, I'm going to move out because I don't see any other option. I would really encourage you to have that hard, vulnerable, calm conversation. First of saying we need help and see if they, that your spouse, can actually hear it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that's going to give you the best potential opportunity for them to hear it. Well, right, and that's either gender. That does not matter which gender we're talking about.
Speaker 1:No, no, that's true. I just will tell you. It's more often that I see the guys with their head in the sand and the women in the bathroom.
Speaker 2:Well, but that is somewhat because you're working with more guys than women individually, that's totally true. But I don't think you're completely wrong. I see the trend as well. I was just more curious as to why it happens. But yeah, even that, though, isn't to guarantee, and so then it's just how do you navigate, working on your own health and being the best spouse you can be?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I have a group of guys that I work with who are, you know, heading towards or in divorce because they did not see it Right, they didn't see it coming. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they are now actively trying to work on change because they know they need to for their future, and that makes me really sad for them, their families, their kids, like you know, even their ex-wives, because there's a part of their finally coming to grips with. Okay, some things need to change, which their spouse has been asking for for a really long time, and it took the other person, you know, ending the relationship before they got there, which is not what we want.
Speaker 2:Well, it's true what they say gender non-specific. If you, you exit your marriage, you're still going to take you into every other, every other relationship Obviously not all our marriage relationships but you're like there, you still are and eventually you're going to start to realize and this is for both the, both spouses, because just because the one has been asking for it doesn't I am not alluding at all that they're the healthier, right, they're just the one that's saying we need help, right. But whoever and however you exit a marriage, you are still going to be in the next relationship.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And so working on this now can benefit you personally and your marriage.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. Bottom line I would say if you are trying to get a spouse to go to marriage, coaching, go to marriage, you know, retreat, go to any of those kind of things do it by being vulnerable, asking and saying we right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if that's not going to work and you're like I still need to go get some individual help, do it by saying I'm going to for me to learn what I can do to help us, right? Not, I'm going to complain about you. I'm going to work on changes. That's going to help us.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right, and that way helps to instill the positive of what's happening rather than the blame on the person who's more resistant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's a lot here, guys. It's not an easy subject.
Speaker 1:It's not, and yet it's something we see way too often. And you know, getting help is not something that should be condemned, it's not something that is weakness. It takes a lot of strength to get help. It does. And so yeah, and look, you know I said this morning to the pastors that I was talking to. You know I would love if it was in every church's culture to regularly communicate that marriages take work. Right, not that they are work, but they take work. They take, you know, effort together there's intentionality.
Speaker 1:There's something where they're continually learning, rather than this idea of the perfect couple as the you know pastor and pastor's wife that have it all together. How about a couple who's truly learning together and growing together? That helps when people are struggling for them to go. Oh okay, well, pastor, does this kind of thing right. They learn and grow. They have to go through things. That's so important. Yeah, for sure so hey, I hope that helps some of you. I hope that gives you some ideas of maybe what you can do when the other person doesn't want to get the help that you want.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it gives you maybe some language. And, of course, if you have questions, we would love to talk to you. You can find us at help at stillbecomingonecom. You can find us on our ministry website, stillbecomingonecom as well, so we'd love to chat with any of you. That's all for this week on Still Becoming One, until next time. I'm Brad Aldrich and I'm Kate Aldrich.
Speaker 2:Be kind and take care of each other.
Speaker 1:Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich Ministries. For more information about Brad and Kate's coaching ministry courses and speaking opportunities, you can find us at aldrichministriescom For podcast show notes and links to resources in all of our social media. Be sure to visit us at stillbecomingonecom and don't forget to like this episode wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to follow us to continue your journey on Still Becoming One.