You've tried to get your spouse to get some help with you, and for whatever reason they aren't ready. Is it worth going to marriage coaching alone? Today we try to tackle this listener's question after our "How Do I Make My Spouse Get Help" episode. Before you just take the easy answer, "of course" there are some pitfalls that you need to watch out for. Going to marriage coaching or counseling yourself could end in hurting your marriage more than helping if you (and your coach) aren't careful!
You've tried to get your spouse to get some help with you, and for whatever reason they aren't ready. Is it worth going to marriage coaching alone? Today we try to tackle this listener's question after our "How Do I Make My Spouse Get Help" episode. Before you just take the easy answer, "of course" there are some pitfalls that you need to watch out for. Going to marriage coaching or counseling yourself could end in hurting your marriage more than helping if you (and your coach) aren't careful!
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast.
Speaker 2:We are Brad and Kate and our more than 20 years of marriage. We've survived both dark times and experienced restoration.
Speaker 1:Now as a licensed marriage counselor and relationship coaches. We help couples to regain hope and joy.
Speaker 2:We invite you to journey with us, as we are Still Becoming One.
Speaker 1:Let's start the conversation. Hello everyone, welcome back to Still Becoming One.
Speaker 2:Yes, welcome back.
Speaker 1:It may have been a couple weeks for you guys who are listening along as we're podcasting.
Speaker 2:It may have been a couple weeks for a new one at least.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have been busy at both of our boys' home for spring break and their girlfriends, so that was fun. Well, I guess one didn't have a girlfriend for very long, but and then I have been perpetually sick for a while yes, and the last week Kate came to me and said it's okay, we can podcast.
Speaker 1:I was like we're fine, we can do it, absolutely not he's like.
Speaker 2:I think what he was actually thinking in his mind was I'm going to have to edit way too much of the coughing out.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:I was literally. You sounded horrible last week.
Speaker 2:Thanks, I was literally about to say you have been so supportive during this. I had like two colds in a row and then in between or before then, I had a six day migraine. That was fun. You've been so supportive and so helpful. I was literally about to be like. You've been amazing.
Speaker 1:I still happen. I just, yes, did not want to make you have to podcast and then make me edit it at all.
Speaker 2:Wow, Wow, guys, this is what happens when you're married for almost 25 years. Yeah, there's just no secrets and no padding it. That's right. So, anyways, yes, that's why we have missed. It's just been a lot going on, a lot. We wanted our focus to be with our boys being home and then me trying to figure out getting better. So, yes, so we have missed being with you but, at the same time, loved what we were doing, hanging out with our boys. Yeah, absolutely, so we're back.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So we actually have a little bit of a listener question that we wanted to try and tackle today A little bit of a listener's question Well, yeah, that people are asking because we had an episode just a couple of times ago which I'll link in the show notes that we talked about how do I get my partner into coaching?
Speaker 2:How do I get? Yeah how do I?
Speaker 1:get them to come if they don't want to. And you know, we kind of talked a lot about how we could encourage them, how it can be a positive thing, how you do it together. It's not like bring them in to be attacked, that kind of idea, hand cuff them to the chair.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, yeah, that doesn't help, right, so I keep some there.
Speaker 1:Right For one session. That's about it. So we had a lot of ideas of how do you do that. But then we got some feedback and people asking okay, that's well and good, but what if they still don't want to come Right, what do I do? Is it worth me going for marriage coaching? By myself. Okay, right, and just this idea of is there value in me figuring out my stuff?
Speaker 2:100% there, absolutely is. How can't done.
Speaker 1:No, but no, not yet. Don't hang up yet. No, there is value in doing it yourself, but okay right, but I'm gonna put this big, like kind of big if out there because I have seen this happen all too often that people go towards their individual counselor, their individual coach and they focus on just their individual goals and they actually grow further away from their partner and further away from their marriage and that's happening by an authentic reason.
Speaker 1:That is not the coach's fault or counselor's fault. It's something they need to pay attention to and it's something that Kate and I pay a lot of attention to, and we train everyone in Aldrich Ministries coaching network that we really need to think about this issue, and it's really. This is across the board, in fact. I remember when I was in grad school I have my master's in marriage and family therapy and I remember a professor teaching us that, hey, if there's a couple who's really toxic, who you know really should not be together, this was on a non Christian university. So if that's really the case, then what you need to do is send them to two individual counselors and in a matter of time, they're going to grow apart and get divorced. Okay.
Speaker 1:And that does absolutely happen, unless you are very intentional about doing the opposite Makes sense to some extent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because what's happening is you're going to that person who is an empathetic listener, who is on your side, who's caring about you, who's trying to help you get healthy, and you're going oh my gosh, I can't believe what my wife did. Oh my goodness, this last week my husband did XYZ, or I went and had that conversation you encouraged me to and their response was blah. Right, and so we're using them to vent to, which can be healthy, but what that does in the long run is honestly leave us feeling very justified that they're the problem.
Speaker 2:Hmm, okay, yep, I can see that. How do you find that you as a coach, if that is happening to you, how do you keep that reigned in?
Speaker 1:How do you keep it reigned in? Well, yeah, like, how do you?
Speaker 2:keep as a coach, because joining that it's a great question, because empathy is so important right.
Speaker 1:Like, and what you're going through is so critical that we have to be like man that sounds really really hard. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know we have to give that empathetic listener, we have to be there and hold that stuff. But if all we do is allow the conclusion that it is your spouse's problem, there's nothing you're doing wrong or nothing you're doing that needs to be adjusted, or you're not really contributing to the issue, then we're just adding to the things that are pulling you away. Sure, right, and I'm not trying to say that you know you're all the problem either. It's just that we can only change the person who's in front of us, at least directly. Right, your change as a client is going to then impact your spouse, but as a coach, I can only work with and change the person who's sitting there. So then my job is how do I challenge them on what their parts of it are Right? How do I challenge them to go deeper, to figure out what might be happening with their spouse's story, what might be contributing to it?
Speaker 1:Or how do I help them to understand how their story is contributing to issues and where they're leading into challenges too?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that would be my how I try to keep myself. When I work with people who are expressing marriage challenges, which I feel like no matter who I work with, if they are married there's gonna be challenges, of course. Or they start to see, oh, how this impacts their marriage, or whatever. I do tend to be working with betrayal trauma or story work. So betrayal trauma will get there, but that's a very different journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's different.
Speaker 2:Because that needs space and time, like we can't work on the other marriage problems until we've given space and time for healing of the betrayal, and that's something I would just side note put out there. This sounds awful, but if you want to be able to go to marriage coaching or counseling and have the playing ground be equal entering into betrayal and like having an affair pornography, unwanted sexual behavior, all those things they make it not equal for a time, Right?
Speaker 1:so you're saying you can't really just deal with your conflict and communication issues?
Speaker 2:if there's been betrayal. If there's been betrayal, because that becomes the top thing to deal with. Just putting that out there.
Speaker 1:Yep no we literally had that this week Somebody called for. You know we do a free consultation a lot of times and talk with people what they want. And a guy talked to me about, you know, wanting to do marriage coaching with their spouse and did admit that there had been betrayal issues and, yeah, he wanted to work on all the other stuff and I'm like it doesn't really work that way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't work that way, right, we have to deal with the betrayal first and then build better, right? We always say like the idea of when we're doing betrayal, trauma work, when we're doing unwanted sexual behavior work that when you're working on your marriage. The idea is not to go back to normal, it is to get it better, right, but it has to go through the lens of dealing with that first 100% Just, and I'm just saying that because it's important to know.
Speaker 2:Because it's just important to know because if there has been betrayal, we have to deal with that first. But anyways, so that being a side note, we're always we're hearing influences of what's going on. Some people may come specifically to talk about their marriage and then I'm really entering into story work, like, what is it about your story? And this is not a blame thing, because if you know story work, it's not but let's understand what part of your story is impacting how you feel about these things, how you react into these things.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and those kinds of things. So I do try to stay on that track and not be pushing them into any area or joining. Of course we shouldn't be pushing them or joining them in running off in one area. Yeah. Right, and so that's how I try to stay on it. Well, let's I hear you, but let's figure out where that's coming from for you.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Instead of just like you're right.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna throw the wrench in there that I think probably everyone is thinking about. What if the spouse is actually doing really bad things, they're being verbally abusive or they're out having an affair? How do we then go like, well, what's your part in it?
Speaker 2:I think it's. I tell people it's still worth doing that work. Understanding your own reactions is important because even if you're not in this relationship, that is going to be your reaction in any relationship. However, if someone is doing things that are not okay, it's also important to have boundary conversations. Like there are still boundaries in marriage, even in a healthy marriage. But if there are abusive things going on, verbally or with betrayal, I mean that's its own form of it's not abusive, but that's not okay behavior. Right, we vowed in our marriage to forsake all others. That's not forsaking all others. So it's important to have boundaries conversations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because somebody can't continue that behavior and expect you to just continue to be okay with it.
Speaker 1:Right. So when we're saying we're gonna help people deal with their own side of things, sometimes that is like how do you set appropriate boundaries, how do you say what's okay, what's not okay? And then how do you have a better response to the things that are challenging in your relationship and recognizing the strings that it's pulling?
Speaker 1:for you right Of why you're reacting that way and why things are hard or whatever is going on, so it is turning it more to. Okay, that sounds like that was really hard, right? How are you gonna respond? How do you take care of yourself? How do you? What is the things that you're doing that are contributing to that conflict or whatever that you need to recognize.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's. I believe that's really good. We have to be able to recognize what things bring for us so that we can understand, because that's how all of life works. Right, you can be going through a really hard, toxic situation at your work. I can't make anything change with your colleague or your boss, but I can help you realize what's happening for you and how you're going to take care of yourself. And it may not change the situation at all from a standpoint of, like, this person doing this X, y, z, but if you can take care of yourself and understand what's happening for you, you can choose in the situation and be able to do okay in the situation. It depends, like some people think, doing this work, as we've said a million times, will mean that then they don't feel any of that anymore.
Speaker 1:It's not. That Does not erase the feeling.
Speaker 2:That would be great, but that's not how we work and it's not erasing it, but it's okay. I can do this, so right, and that can be in your marriage too, and that may feel a little different, because you're with your spouse a significant amount of the time. However, there are still things you can do for you that help you take care of you, which is what you need.
Speaker 1:We need right and look. This is not a new concept, it's just one that we don't often go to because back a really long time ago when Jesus talked about when Okay, I was like, how long are we going?
Speaker 1:Well, when we have a conflict, he says really we need to go to our brother and deal with that conflict, but we don't need to take the speck out of their eye. We need to take the speck out of our eye first. And one of the things I love about that is it is not saying hey, it's all, you Just deal with yourself and ignore what they've done.
Speaker 2:Which is a lot of times how it's interpreted in the church. Correct, I feel?
Speaker 1:And it's not that that's harmful. Right, we are acknowledging they have stuff to do as well. But if we can stop and go, let me see what my part is. What do I need to do? First to clear up my vision in this situation. So I'm aware and I'm aware of where I'm contributing, what I need to do different. And then you can kind of go and you know, talking to your spouse in this situation of, hey, how could we do this better? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, that's good.
Speaker 1:So that's the goal anyway but when you're in marriage counseling or more marriage coaching and going how do I grow this better? Yeah, and so here's your challenge. You may already be in that situation. You already have a coach or a counselor that you're working with and you're kind of right now hearing this and recognizing ooh. A lot of times what I do is go invent and I just leave that session feeling like I was right, that it was justified.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of times people do right. When I vent, I just feel like I've vented and I still know yeah, but I think there's a lot of times when you vent to somebody who's empathetic and who's saying, wow, that sounds really hard, yes, I get why you would be upset by that right, all of those kind of really important things, we end up kind of going.
Speaker 2:Feeling justified enough.
Speaker 1:You know what I am right.
Speaker 2:The only thing I would caveat to that which there are probably other caveats as well, but when something is fresh and new, like betrayal trauma, there needs to be a space to just outflow of Sure, because a lot of times, unfortunately, people don't have resources and I find a lot of women coming to me and they haven't been able to really be honest, completely honest, with anyone else Like their family, their church, so.
Speaker 2:But I think the spouse who did the betrayal can get frustrated with that. And I always say this is for a time, like there's actually, I find, with most women, and I only end up working with women in this position, but there is a natural flow where it switches off. They're not just venting anymore. They want to actually move beyond that. Every once in a while I feel like I have to move someone into that a little bit, but most people don't actually want to stay in that space.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:So just know that if something's new venting is so normal. Part of it. I'm not sure I'd call it venting, but it's part of it.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm really glad you said that, because you're right. I don't want to make it sound like oh you know, come to us and you don't get empathy, you only get challenges right. That's not the idea.
Speaker 2:Certainly, Guys. Can you imagine being our teenagers? Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Certainly there's a place where empathy is an important part Feeling heard, listened to, held, you know, verbally held all of that is really important, right? So I think that's very true, but if you end up leaving a session just feeling like, okay, all of my anger towards my spouse is justified and they are the ones who need to change to make this better.
Speaker 1:That may be true and there may be some value in that, but you are not doing anything like for your marriage in that, and especially if you are coming out of that session and then going sitting down with your spouse and saying, oh well, my coach said XYZ, that is probably not going to be helping your marriage.
Speaker 2:I agree. It's not going to be helpful and it's just going to frustrate your spouse. It's going to frustrate your spouse to hear it.
Speaker 1:It's going to be like oh my gosh, we're paying money for you to go and get matter at me, like that doesn't help Matter. Is that a word?
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean I guess a spouse would probably be like this is I'd rather you go buy a pair of shoes. That would make you happy at the moment. Right, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding.
Speaker 1:That probably doesn't help a whole lot, and so I think we need to be cautious of that and I would challenge if you're doing that individual, you need to make sure that you've communicated to your coach, your counselor, that your goal is to grow your marriage.
Speaker 3:If that's your number one goal, if, that is your goal, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I have lots of people who that's not their main goal.
Speaker 1:But I realized the point of this podcast is that we're talking about if you're looking to do some relationship growth and your spouse is not willing to join yet then you need to be verbal and saying, hey, I really want some ideas of how I can help, you know, grow my marriage right now.
Speaker 2:I think it's also important to say and this may be hard and scary, but to say I don't want to just be heard, I want someone to call out the areas that I need to work on.
Speaker 1:I love that I have clients who tell me that all the time I love it.
Speaker 2:Well and I think we've said this here before we kind of have that with each other. Granted, nobody really loves hearing like, hey, that's an area you could work on, and I have that with my most trusted friends too. I'm like guys, I don't want. I do want to be listened to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I do want you to also push me and maybe this is a surprise to some people listening, but I think that's a wonderful thing to tell your coach or counselor hey, I trust you and if you're seeing something that I don't see, I want you to push me. Yes, because that is not always what you're going to get, but that's why I? Based on them, based on their personality, their theory of what they're doing or how change happens. They may not be the ones calling it out, right?
Speaker 2:And that was my point of. Even when you get to that point with your spouse and your best friends, you should be inviting it. Not just assuming it will happen, but verbalizing that to them that, hey, I want you, I trust you as my spouse, I trust you as my really dear friend, and I don't have many that I ask that of, because it's the ones I know.
Speaker 2:Well, it's the ones I know who, even if they're going to push me, they love me and know how hard that's going to hurt, right? So like it's the ones I really trust. But I don't just take that for granted, I ask that of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's very true, and I have to say, like I have had clients say that to me directly of like.
Speaker 1:I really want you to push me if I'm not seeing things, and that opens another layer even for me, who I tend to take this approach of challenging people on their stuff. So if that happens, then it's like, okay, I can actually push a little bit harder, I can show you something of how you said that may come off to other people that you would not have seen. So I love that when people do that. But I think that's one of the keys is that if you are doing individual and you really want to be focused on how do I help my marriage, make sure that that's the goal, that your coach or counselor knows that and that you're walking out of it going okay, what do I need to do different in our next argument that happens like that or our next conversation.
Speaker 1:that happens like that, so you're actually looking at your part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would even say I was sitting here wrestling, like do I say that? Like if you're not interested in that, don't go. Part of me says that, but the other part of me also says you never know when that process might hit for you where you're like oh, I can't, this isn't all about me, so I wouldn't say don't, but I would say your posture determines what you're going to get out of it.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:And if your posture is just all it's my spouse, you're not going to get much out of it.
Speaker 1:And I will say this is one of the reasons why, when we work with couples, there are a lot of times that we step back and do a little bit of individual work to help people to recognize their parts in a safe way, because they can kind of let down their guard a little bit, rather than having to feel like, oh, if I'm, if I'm admitting to this stuff, then you know, it's all my fault.
Speaker 1:No it's not all your fault in any way, shape or form, but you need to know what your parts are Right. So sometimes we do a little bit of individual to hear people's stories, to hear their goals, to hear their fears, you know, and to go a little deeper.
Speaker 2:And often there's there's more than we can cover in Right together, like there's. There just needs to be a little bit of individualized time, and sometimes we're able to do that when we're all meeting together and sometimes it's just we just get a feel.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it there's not enough time essentially To do that, but yeah sometimes this is one of the things that Kate and I love to do is, you know, she'll meet with a wife for a little while. I'll meet with a husband for a little while. Mm-hmm get to know them. Their stories, you know, challenge where they need to be and then come together when both Kate and I can be there in the session and so we can kind of Know what your triggers are, what?
Speaker 1:know, what their you know stories are. Know that what you know, hey, that the way that Conflict went sideways actually relates to you in this way and trying to point out some of those things and help Teach each other. You know those things about your spouse and, yeah, it can be a really productive time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you. It's interesting having this conversation. Is there really a place where we can have too much empathy?
Speaker 1:I Think so, which is hard right, because empathy is hey, I'm, I'm being heard. But if the empathy is about how, just about how, the other person did something wrong, mm-hmm and Not helping us. How is that helping us grow? I guess is my question right if it's just this person hurt me, mm-hmm and Not looking at. You know how that Wrote stuff on my heart, how that impacted my life, how you know they. They're very important things, so I don't want to say we turn off the empathy.
Speaker 1:But I do think there's times where, if it doesn't go towards a how am I growing? Hmm then what's the purpose?
Speaker 2:Hmm, okay, now you, you answer the question my hmm, I Think I think that can be true. The challenge that I have that I would push back on is most people's voice of self contempt inside of them is louder than their voice of Kindness and empathy. So I hear you and I I Honor and believe that's what comes out is my spouse is all the problem, but I don't actually think that's what's going on inside of the person.
Speaker 1:I would totally agree with that and I would say empathy alone is only going to reinforce the X, the the surface level of it's all my spouse, where, like Actually, you know, yes, starting with empathy but then hearing more, I think actually can get to that deeper place of.
Speaker 2:I feel like I've seen empathy move people though. The just does act of being being able to express it and you holding it well motivates people.
Speaker 1:I always, when I talk about empathy, I always come back to the biblical story.
Speaker 2:It's not only that, but yes.
Speaker 1:The biblical story of the woman at the well, which fast forward through all that. There's so much in that story, but there's this woman, a long time ago too. There's this woman who, basically, is avoiding all of her friends and neighbors because, well, she's got some stuff in her story.
Speaker 2:She's definitely not living like society would want her to.
Speaker 1:Correct, and so she's, you know, using the well in the middle of the day, when nobody else is there, and runs into Jesus. And at the end of their conversation, at the end of their time together, she is going off to her neighbors saying come and meet the man who told me about everything I've ever done, and she is not saying that in a shameful way. Right, she's heard and cared for. So I do agree. Empathy moves us, but it needs to be self empathy, not just oh you're right, you were, so you know.
Speaker 2:What's self empathy?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 1:So like that I'm not picking at you today you are Like that woman, like recognize things about herself that she needed to grow. If it was just you're right, all of these you know neighbors. They're so mean to you. You don't deserve this, you don't need this. If all he did was empathize with the things that were hurting her, now I don't think you'd see any change or growth. Right, I'm sure he would say you're right, these neighbors should accept you, they should love you, but you ought to have a part two to play, right? So that's what I mean by that self empathy. If you just stay at the surface, I think you're probably not going to actively do much changing.
Speaker 1:And this is the problem with just individuals sometimes. Back to the theme.
Speaker 2:Well, and it to me it is a strong indicator of why we can't start with the adult self. Cause that's why I'm sitting here and like, yeah, because, as an adult, there is this piece of like. You are an adult, now you are choosing. You are someone who's been harmed and someone who's doing harm. But we actually need to go back and spend some time with the one who was harmed as a child and it wasn't your responsibility, because until we can enter into empathy with that version of you complete empathy- we can't then address the harm you are doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:So, like I hear it, but I kind of go back and forth with the empathy thing. So I think sitting with someone can often do more work than anything else. Like, and, yes, jesus, like, we have his words with the woman at the well, but nowhere does it say that he sat there and read her the riot act for everything she'd ever done. Yes, he did make the comment about you know. Yes, he's, the current man you're not with is like five or six, I can't remember five. Yeah, and he's not currently your husband. So he, you know he was very matter of fact about it, but I would imagine there's even more in her story than just that and he didn't just sit there and list it all.
Speaker 1:Right, he didn't berate her, he loved her.
Speaker 2:Correct and so, yeah, I just think there's this piece of like when we sit with someone I can't say it always happens, but there is a lot of work that happens where they naturally want to move into a place of healing and like they want their actions to reflect that healing. So I'm not prescribing or saying that we only just sit and listen, but I am saying do that first as a as a. You know not that we're necessarily talking to coaches out there, but do that first and then see where you need to go from there and I think, okay.
Speaker 1:so if we're putting this back on clients, people who are going to coaching, or going to counseling. If you are going and you are feeling more justified and more like your spouse is all the problem, then just recognize you're not actually doing marriage.
Speaker 2:You're not doing anything that's going to help.
Speaker 1:Right Like you're not doing anything that's going to help your marriage. Now I'm not saying that's not right. There are cases that we've had of people who have been in long-term abusive situations that they need a lot of assurance that what's happening is not okay and I do want to call that out because that's a little different than what we're mostly talking about. Sure.
Speaker 1:Right Like this is things are more or less normal in in your relationship and yet you're going to be an individual because a spouse doesn't want to attend, or they feel like. You need to deal with a problem first and you need to address that. You need to get on that and try and figure out. You know what that is, and one of the questions I encourage people all the time, if they're coming individually, is what would be the changes that your spouse would notice or would want?
Speaker 1:if you're looking at growing your marriage. What do you think they would be asking you to work on and why, right? I'm not saying that has to be the first priority, but it's certainly something that we should be considering. Yeah. You know and you know. Instead of just sitting with these are all the things. I think my spouse that's not coming should be changing, which doesn't really help us a whole lot.
Speaker 2:Well, you can start with some nice palace. That's not coming is the first thing I'd like to change on the list, Of course, but you know of course we get it and yeah, so hopefully that's shed some light on if you are figuring this out If you're trying to figure it out on your own. What it can look like in some structure and boundaries you can put around it to make sure it remains a healthy thing for both you and your marriage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and that's our goal. We want to see people grow, and sometimes it does take an individual doing some changing first to make it a safe place for the next person to grow and you to grow together. So we do. We've seen that, we've seen it happen, and I just want to encourage everybody to take the risk Right If you're at a place that you're feeling like your marriage is not where you want it to be. Take the risk. Yeah.
Speaker 1:See what you can do to grow that place of intimacy and connection. Yeah, so I hope that was helpful. That's all for this week on Still Becoming One Until next time.
Speaker 2:I'm Brad Aldrich and I'm Kate Aldrich. Be kind and take care of each other.
Speaker 1:Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich Ministries. For more information about Brad and Kate's coaching ministry courses and speaking opportunities, you can find us at aldrichministriescom For podcast show notes and links to resources in all of our social media. Be sure to visit us at stillbecomingonecom and don't forget to like this episode wherever you get your podcasts. And be sure to follow us to continue your journey on Still Becoming One.