Still Becoming One
Still Becoming One
Healing the Boy to Free the Man: With Drew Boa
Drew Boa turns the traditional approach to overcoming pornography addiction on its head with his groundbreaking perspective that freedom comes not through battling your sexuality, but by befriending it. As the founder of Husband Material Ministries and author of "Outgrow Porn," Drew shares his personal 10-year journey of freedom and the revolutionary insights he's gained from working with hundreds of men.
Welcome to the Still Becoming One podcast. We are Brad and Kate.
Speaker 2:In our more than 20 years of marriage, we've survived both dark times and experienced restoration.
Speaker 1:Now as a licensed marriage counselor and relationship coaches. We help couples to regain hope and joy.
Speaker 2:We invite you to journey with us, as we are still becoming one.
Speaker 1:Let's start the conversation. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Still Becoming One.
Speaker 2:Welcome back.
Speaker 1:We are so glad that you're here. We're really excited today to introduce to you a friend of mine and hopefully maybe a new name for you guys. Drew Boa is joining us. He is the CEO of Husband Material Ministries, where he helps men outgrow porn, and he is the author of a brand new book just out now called Outgrow Porn with Drew Boa. And Drew lives in Colorado with his wife and his kids and he loves all kinds of adventures out there. I follow you on Instagram, I think and I get to see some of the fun pictures.
Speaker 2:Sounds more fun than Lancaster, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, drew, it is so great to have you on.
Speaker 4:Thanks Brad, Thanks Kate, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're so glad. So tell us a little bit about kind of your inspiration for writing your new book. I'm kind of curious, like how you got there and going okay, I want to, I want to do a book.
Speaker 4:It all came from my own personal story of being free from internet porn for the past 10 years and finding out what works, what doesn't work, meeting with hundreds of guys and finding out the places where they're getting stuck or the concepts that really resonate and lead to lasting freedom, cause I already had over a year of freedom before my last relapse in 2014, but, man, certain fantasies still had so much power over me, yeah, and that's what drove me to go deeper.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that I really like about your book already that I've got to see is the whole idea of finding lasting freedom without just the behavior change kind of stuff. Like so often and I know you and I have talked about this before so often there's a lot of things out there, especially in church world, that seems to be like just do some behavior changes, just do some actions and that will stop the habit, as if it's like the habit of eating potato chips or something like that. So tell us a little bit about how you have encouraged people to do that differently.
Speaker 4:Well, the problem is that the more we resist sexual urges and temptations, the stronger they get, and that makes it really frustrating and exhausting. We need a different approach If we want to actually get to a point where I just don't feel the same need for those behaviors. And so I mean, if you want to really get to the core of what's going on underneath unwanted sexual behavior, especially pornography, we have to think about where did it all begin? Okay, for the most part, men and women don't get hooked on porn. Boys and girls do.
Speaker 1:Right, right.
Speaker 4:So chapter one of the book is called heal the boy to free the man.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:That's where we start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 1:And I think you're exactly right. It is. This is all the place where it starts, and you're right, and it's really good, and I think you're exactly right, it it is. This is all the place where it starts, you're right and it's going back and then we're repeating those patterns. Certainly, the patterns grow, but you know, yeah, we're repeating the same pattern over and over again yeah so tell us, like, who did you write this for? Like, who is your ideal? Like I want them to pick up this book.
Speaker 4:This is the best book for the guy who has already tried accountability software and going to church groups or 12-step programs maybe even done like biblical counseling or something like that and yet they still find themselves stuck in the same old cycles. Yeah, somebody who's open to a different approach that might be uncomfortable or it's going to challenge you to question some of your assumptions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, wow. So how did you figure out some of that in your own journey? What was that like for you?
Speaker 4:A lot of things changed when I met Rebecca, who is now my wife, and when I started disclosing some of my sexual story to her. I realized that I'm not as free from porn as she thinks I am, and if I'm going to make a lifelong vow to this woman, then I need to know that I can keep it. Okay. And that's where the name husband material came from, cause I needed to be husband material. Yeah, I needed to know that there's not a relapse right around the corner.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:You know, yeah. And so that is when I really started to learn everything I could about porn and sex addiction. To learn everything. I could about porn and sex addiction, which eventually led me into understanding more of my childhood and adolescence. And then that journey took me to the training that we did together Correct Going through unwanted guide training with Jay Stringer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yep, that was huge for me. Yeah, that training changed my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would agree it was huge for me. Yeah, that training changed my life. Yeah, and I I would agree, I, it was huge for me. It I actually chuckle. It was one of those things I had. I had had a conversation with Jay cause this was 2020 and it was earlier that year. I'd had a conversation with Jay and cause I really liked his book I just recently found it and really liked it and was just I think we kind of talked on the phone for a couple of minutes and he invited me to do the unwanted guide training. And I was like I'm too busy.
Speaker 1:I really can't. At that point I was trying to juggle a full-time job and the counseling job on the side, so almost two full-time jobs and I was like I just really can't.
Speaker 1:And then COVID hit and I was like Jay, do you still have room? I have time now. So it was totally this open door kind of thing and I agree it solidified a lot of things for me. I like to say, actually I tell all the guys that I work with that part of my healing journey was going to a narrative family therapist that had a lot of the bases that Jay has taught in, that Dan Allender has taught in. So I was doing a lot of that same work and then reading Jay's book, I'm like, yes, this put in words what I experienced. So I think for me that was that part of going through.
Speaker 1:That was like okay, this gives me a framework to kind of go back to and go what actually helped me. But I think what actually also helps people.
Speaker 4:Yeah totally, yes, me. But I think what actually also helps people? Yeah, totally yes, unwanted gives the framework and the big picture for where unwanted sexual behavior comes from and what healing can look like. It lacks some of the practical tools that I'm trying to teach in Outgrow Porn. That's awesome, so in some ways it's picking up from where that book left off, because it's a fantastic book, and also like now what let's get some steps and tools and stories of what does it really mean to face your fantasies or to heal the child within you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that work in actually talking to that little boy is a pretty big deal yeah.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, that's what changed everything for me personally, because I no longer felt like I'm fighting a battle against myself, right, I felt like I'm learning to love myself. I'm learning to receive God's love in the places where I haven't yet. So it's befriending my sexuality, not battling it, correct?
Speaker 2:Correct. That's really good yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so good and I'm so glad that you wrote this, I'm so glad that you're kind of continuing growing that. I really hope that some of the recovery groups and churches out there get a hold of this, because I literally was just talking with somebody who is going to be joining my unwanted sexual behavior group here coming up this fall, and they made this comment of their recovery group of it really helped me to stop porn from being an everyday problem to a maybe every three-month problem, and I hear that so often from recovery groups. Right, sure, it gave me some resources and places to talk and stuff that helps in the moment, but it doesn't change anything fundamental, right, it doesn't actually dig into why is this here in the first place, or what do I do to actually take care of myself or heal?
Speaker 4:Once you get to that point of maybe every three months, you start to see more patterns. Yes. And those patterns are always particular. Yes, they're so unique. Yeah, and that's a great starting point for story work and seeing. Hmm, I wonder why every time, my wife goes out of town right. I feel this intense urge right Right. Like. That's where a lot of the deeper work can come into focus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm curious. You obviously you know your first chapter is, you know, healing the boy within. You obviously wrote this for guys. I'm curious what do you think about wives reading this, as they're seeing their husbands trying to wrestle with this issue?
Speaker 4:Yeah, they're going to get a lot of insight into understanding what is going on within this man. Yeah, it's not an excuse, right, doesn't justify anything. It is an explanation, okay, and yeah, I think it can really help to make sense as well of the specific sexual fantasies that are often so confusing. So I share vulnerably about my own sexual fetish for braces and orthodontics, and I mean there are endless versions of that for each person. So to think about why that, what's going on with that, and to have some answers can bring relief.
Speaker 2:It can reduce shame yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Of course. Yeah, and I think that's so important. It's one of those areas that most people don't end up talking about, right. And I've seen this in other groups. Groups they go to other things and they're like oh, I have to report in on how I did and all this kind of stuff all the time, but they don't actually talk about even what draws them or why it drew them or what the content was. That, that arousal template stuff which is really important to recognize because that's, it's there for a reason.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's there for a part of it.
Speaker 2:And I think that explanation you know you said it's not an excuse, it's an explanation I think that's very needed because I think the church specifically has struggled to understand that and therefore be able to give good insights.
Speaker 2:And when people are struggling and they're going to their church and they're trying to get help, I think that gets missed a ton.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know, I end up working with a lot of the spouses, but also work with some women as well, with unwanted sexual behavior. And it's interesting because, even if unwanted sexual behavior isn't something you've used to take care of yourself over the years, we all want to know why we go back to what we go back to and why it's there, what purpose it's serving, what did it, where did it originate from? Because, as you said, it does help us to understand why we're taking care of ourselves that way, and I know, with the clients that I work with, even just being able to use that phrase of okay, this is how I was taking care of myself. So it's not just that I'm disgusting, that I need to stop All of these things that just make people feel worse. And I can't speak to it personally, but I would imagine don't send them. Don't often keep them on the road to recovery because they're just based in.
Speaker 2:You're gross, something's wrong with you, kind of thing and I feel like the church has perpetuated that, unfortunately because of their lack of understanding. I don't think it's on purpose, but it's also something we need to be better at, for sure. So I think that explanation is a really beautiful thing, yeah.
Speaker 4:All right, and it can also help to reinforce the truth that, wives and partners, you didn't do anything wrong, yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly this started way before you came into the picture. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and you bring up a good point, and I think this is another one people don't often want to get into. But, yes, for spouses, partners like this didn't start with you, it didn't originate with you and, for all intensive purposes, is not about you. What about the parents who need to meet their kids in this space? Because I think that is something that is a beautiful gift, if you can right, because, if we're talking about, it started with the little boy or the little girl, which every single one of us have strategies that helped us get through life. How can parents, no matter what age their kiddo is, how can they sit with them in a way that invites the conversation? For where did I miss you? What did right? What didn't I give you enough of? What did I do too much of? Like, yeah, how can parents sit with their teenagers, adult kids, and actually listen?
Speaker 4:well, those first few questions you just asked are beautiful, like wow, how healing for a parent to ask those questions to a kid. Correct, and also for any parents out there whose kids are struggling with this. I would encourage you to view your role as a contribution, not a cause. Okay, that's good. So there's not one specific thing that causes somebody to develop an attachment to porn.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 4:And in today's world, kids are getting exposed to it at three years old, six years old, yeah, and I believe that for kids, porn is sexual abuse. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So for them, it's like this sexual abuser came into their lives at such a young age, yeah, and oftentimes parents had no idea. And so, yeah, it's going to be really hard to break up with that abusive long-term partner. And so, yeah, parents play a role in it. Yeah, yet it's not just us, their peers influence things Church, environment, school environment and just the internet. Changing everybody's lives has all played another big contributing role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's really good. Appreciate that yeah.
Speaker 1:So kind of on a different place. Just a question. I get this all the time and I think it's out there, whether you have a church background or not is especially with younger guys is hey, we're not having sex, we're not out there having sex. So isn't this just normal? Isn't this just okay? What's the problem? Why is this not a good thing? How do you answer some of that question?
Speaker 4:Is this normal in the sense that it's common? Yes, it's very common. Yes. Is it normal in the sense that it's good for you? No, it's not good for you. Porn damages the brain. Yep.
Speaker 4:It hurts relationships and it fuels sex trafficking. There's a really good documentary about that which you can watch for free, called brain heart world. It's by fight the new drug, and it goes into the many different angles, just using science and personal stories to bring all the research and information about how porn affects people into like public awareness. So most people who are listening to this and who are reading my book already agree that porn is a problem. So I like to highlight a different piece of it, which is what porn actually does for somebody, hmm, and I think it serves three functions it's a predator, a pacifier and a punishment. Okay.
Speaker 4:We've already talked about the predatory piece that targets young boys and girls and turns them into lifelong consumers. Right, you know. The pacifier piece is also something we've touched on. Porn is often a way of coping with childhood experiences, unmet needs. It's a way to soothe, to numb, and there's this third piece of it, which Jay Stringer talked about in Unwanted, which is that it's actually also a way to solidify self-hatred. It's a punishment. At the same time, it's a way to feel worse about ourselves. Yes, and that's why kindness and self-compassion are so important.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good, yeah Good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, getting to the bottom of that self-hatred thing is a deep, deep well, it's deep.
Speaker 4:So I once heard Jake Porter talk about how this works. I'm going to use some fancy language. He said that relapse can serve as an intrapersonal confirmation bias. In other words, I knew it, yep Right. The brain gets a hit of dopamine by thinking I knew it. I really can't get over this. I knew it. I really am a horrible person. Just like you get dopamine from the imagery or from the stimulation, you also get dopamine from the condemnation too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Cause there's a certainty in it. It's like if I'm trying to believe that I'm loved no matter what, like there's going to be some level of uncertainty in that, I'm still learning to believe it. Oh yeah, if I'm still learning to believe it, if I'm still learning to believe that I can trust other people to be there for me. Like that requires uncertainty, but shame has a certainty about it that it seems so appealing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that, and it's that self-fulfilling prophecy. And we even say it with couples, like there is something about you as a couple believe it or not that if we don't understand our stories, we marry someone. Or maybe we could say it this way whomever you marry is going to confirm the things you already believe, right, if we don't know what's playing then, believe it or not, it's going to play itself out here as well, and so that makes a lot of sense that it fulfills that what you already believe about yourself.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, the reenactment right.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's right and you tackle this in your book. So I want to ask you because it is some of the thing a question I get often is people kind of asking this thing of well, I just have a lot of sexual energy or I just have this really high sex drive, what do I do with all that? If it doesn't go into these unhealthy things, what do I do? Go into these unhealthy things what do I do?
Speaker 4:yeah, man, I wish I had a good answer to that question 15 years ago. Um four things. You can do. Four things. You can welcome it and say hello. Sexual energy. Um, right, there you are. What brings you here today?
Speaker 1:Yes, I love the curiosity. Hospitality yes.
Speaker 4:Instead of hostility. Yes, because those of us who grew up in purity culture are inclined to think oh, I'm having a sexual thought, shut it down. Yeah, make it go away. Read some Bible verses and take a cold shower Like that.
Speaker 4:That is the battle approach, which makes these feelings stronger, but welcoming it, oh, it's okay that you're here yeah um, that is a good starting point and then, understanding it, asking deeper questions about what's underneath this feeling that I'm having, or this thing that I want to do Could be something earlier in the day, earlier in the week or earlier in my life. You know. So understanding is huge, and then appreciating it, being being willing to bless. The desire that's driving these urges could be a desire for affection, acceptance, for safety, a desire to be pursued, a desire for touch, a desire for connection. You know, those desires are created by God. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So we learn to bless instead of curse our desires, and then finally to regulate, to manage them in a healthy way. That's what we can do.
Speaker 1:Which I think is so logical. And yet it is this thing that I think so many guys go. I just, I just so sexual. That's why I have to. You know, my wife has to meet that need all the time. Or else, or like in, there's so many unhealthy things that happen when we don't do exactly what you said of like, hey, this is normal, but it does not have to rule my life, it does not have to rule all of my decisions, it does not. Those desires aren't bad, but it doesn't mean that it has to be the driver of my relationships. And I think so often we, yeah, miss that and get it mixed up and I miss that sometimes, of course.
Speaker 4:I mean, I'm still learning how to do this stuff too exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:I think too. I always like to, maybe because of our own story I like to equalize things right. I think all of our coping strategies for all of us that as kids we develop to help us get through and deal with and do well in our family of origin, or the best we can right, they, um, they all have downsides to them, some consequences. Consequences are just much more difficult than others. But I like to remind people like even if pornography has not become what you've used, it's really good for every single one of us to look at what we use, because for most of us it's out of proportion somehow or it's caring for us in a way in times that you know we're missing opportunities to actually be cared for well or to care for ourselves well, because this one has specific consequences. I think it feels like there are some that are better than others. And.
Speaker 2:I think, on one hand, yeah, I guess we could honor that Some are less destructive than others, but on the other hand, no right, we all have to ask ourselves what is keeping us from knowing ourselves better, honoring ourselves better, loving ourselves better and those around us? So I think you know.
Speaker 1:There's stuff.
Speaker 2:Right, we all have stuff and pornography is not any different than any other coping strategy. It's just the consequences that can be really different and I want to honor that. For some people it takes on an addictive quality that feels I don't want to diminish the battle.
Speaker 1:But so do a lot of things right, it's just that unfortunately.
Speaker 2:They're either socially acceptable, some of them are socially acceptable. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know. But the running to you know substances or alcohol or those kinds of things you know, we've known for a long time, creates these problems. I think people are just starting to wake up to the fact that this thing that is easily accessible on their computer does some of the same things.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, oh, absolutely. And I think you can even go out further than those obvious ones, shopping, daydreaming, right. Your imaginative mind as a child, I think, was given to us by Christ but I think can quickly for some people, become. You don't even need to get to a computer. This up here can be the way you care for yourself.
Speaker 4:like, yeah, whatever it may be for sure, yeah, we all have pacifiers exactly that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right. Hence the picture on. Hence the big pacifier on the front of the book. Yes, so it is important to recognize those things that we're doing that are a pacifier, and try to figure out you know how to get rid of it, right? I remember? I think we did this with all of our kids who use pacifiers. It's gonna be a kid's story yeah, we only had two one, we only had one.
Speaker 2:She used her blanket, that's right.
Speaker 1:So our oldest and like, instead of just taking it away, right you I don't know if you use this that you cut it open so it doesn't give the same satisfaction anymore. So now it's not like as interested like I mean, let's be honest I don't think that really worked. Actually it worked a little bit.
Speaker 2:It was definitely traumatic for our oldest but yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean, we all have those things, so yeah, so, drew, we ask some questions of all of our guests, just of some life things as well. So what are you doing in amongst of a million things that you're doing in your ministry, in your work? What? Are you doing right now to keep your marriage alive?
Speaker 4:Hmm, right now to keep my marriage alive, I am looking into like spiritual programs because we've realized that we've done our relationship with God solo instead of together. Okay, yeah, and I want that to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And I want that to change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I love that Very cool. Spiritual intimacy is such an interesting thing to think about Marriage journey. Because you know we talk about like emotional intimacy or obviously sexual intimacy like we're talking about, and those are obviously so together, right, Like you have to do that journey together. But spiritual intimacy is that really interesting one, that it is both an individual journey with God and then with each other, so it's interesting. Yeah it's so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:That's great. So what do you do in these days? On something that brings you rest?
Speaker 4:Well, I rest from sitting in front of a computer all day by running up mountains when I'm done Nice. Living in Colorado has been a great place to do that.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's awesome, for sure.
Speaker 1:That's a lot.
Speaker 4:Well, it's great. You know, while my body is resting, my mind is working. But while my body is working, my mind is resting. That's good.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's so good. So, drew, where can our listeners find out more about you and the book and all that kind of stuff?
Speaker 4:yeah, you can get a copy of the book at outgrowporncom or, if you're not sure about putting that language into your browser, just drewboacom, we'll get you there. And then the ministry that I lead is called Husband Material and that is a much more developed, robust place to find community and courses and coaching and support and retreats and as much help as we can give to guys who want to become sexually, emotionally, spiritually mature.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That's great, and you have your own podcast too, right that's?
Speaker 4:right Husband Material comes out every week.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, very cool.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. That's amazing. I love that.
Speaker 1:So we'll definitely put a link in the show notes for all of you who are wanting to check it out. And I really appreciate Drew. There's so much that needs done out there, so I'm just glad to have another person who's working towards and representing freedom. Well, and working towards what does growth look like, rather than staying in shame.
Speaker 4:Thanks, Brad and Kate. Thanks for having me and helping couples become one.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah we are certainly glad to promote it and excited to see some people reaching out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hope so.
Speaker 1:Well, we just thank you for being with us and until next time. I'm Brad Aldrich.
Speaker 2:And I'm Kate Aldrich. Be kind and take care of each other.
Speaker 1:Still Becoming One is a production of Aldrich Ministries. For more information about Brad and Kate's coaching ministry courses and speaking opportunities, you can find us at aldrichministriescom. For podcast show notes and links to resources and all of our social media. Be sure to visit us at stillbecomingonecom and don't forget to like this episode wherever you get your podcasts, and be sure to follow us to continue your journey on Still Becoming One becoming one.