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This week we talk about Dustin’s mom’s passing, grieving, and what she believed about the afterlife.
This episode is brought to you by:
And by our other patrons and those who want no reward.
Contact information, show notes, and links to Social Media and the like can be found at https://htotw.com
The music in this episode is:
Welcome to the Show by Kevin MacLeod
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Humanistic on the world episode 26 rest in peace mom Welcome to the episode of humanistic on the world. I am Dustin and Joining me is Hello, all right, so Been a while last you heard from me was May 31 when I said we're actually I didn't say we were taking a break I acknowledged we were taking a break Since the last real episode was April 25. Yeah And now that the Situation that resulted in that has come to a close. I am more comfortable talking about it more detail It feels like a lifetime ago We've had preschool graduation Memorial Day weekend that summer almost coming gone. It feels like yeah And this episode is going to be heavy. I Am using chapters so if you're using a podcast app to listen to this the supports chapters and a section is too heavy for you to handle skip to the next chapter before you skip the whole episode and so For those of you that have been around for a while you may recall the September 2016 12-hour stream of thong we did to raise money for the leukemia and lymphoma society 12 hours Did you do the full 12 hours, or did you just contribute an hour to the 12 hours? I? Think I had a one-hour break. Yeah. Oh god. Okay It's as bad as I remember it then. Yeah. Yeah, yeah I I made a point of being there for as much as I possibly could I took breaks, but I was there for this is before the day of Children. Yes. Yes Just over a year before Kylie was born But with that that team and that wasn't the first year we did light the night the the team that we had was the Treasure Valley Coalition of Reason team and our honored hero was my mom who survived Hodgkin's lymphoma and round 1980 1981 that was the You know Hodgkin's lymphoma was the earliest form of cancer identified it has had the highest survival rate basically forever because It's the first one to be really identified like that study really helped It's the one that Hank Green science communicator youtuber podcaster has right now and is Not particularly worried like he's not all that worried about it because it's it's stressful It's a really high survival rate makes a hell of sick, but the treatments the treatments do make you come out of it the other end is just That year or two of your life is gone Yeah, now at the time my mom had it back in the baby days. It was You know a little bit different chemo and radiate chemos were way more brutal than they are now and the dosing was Way more frequent. The radiation Was so much precise dosing has just dumped it. Yeah and see what happens the radiation was 62nd burst chin to toe front and back five days a week for three months straight And she did that a couple times She survived barely She was told she would be sterile had me a couple years later not barely sterile which resulted in me growing up believing that my birth was a miracle Which made it harder to leave religion. Yeah uh the cancer had lingering effects on her like She despite the fact that she wasn't completely sterile She was all but sterile and had to start on estrogen replacement therapy very early to avoid But periamontopausal at what like 38 or something 30 something effectively she would have carried on effectively it would have been from 32. Yeah Yeah, that would suck and Then a puzzle rough probably at about 36. I was 30. She was 35 when I was born and so the the risk of osteoporosis was a Huge huge concern. Uh, she had her thyroid was fried her sweat glands roll fried um it had It had lingering effects, but she had a really good life after that And then she got to her 60s In fact, she stopped going to any survivor things, right? Yeah, it was lasted everybody There was nobody else like she was going to survival of survivor events There was nobody there who had survived cancer more than five years And when she was at 30 years Well, it's starting to feel awkward that was resulting in a lot of survivor guilt Yeah, yeah And the man I can't imagine literally can't imagine. Yeah, the doctors had told her that Absolute at the best she could expect she would survive into her 60s She made it to 74. Yeah, which is incredible But in her 60s The bone degradation resulted in the lower part of her back collapsing and that Severely impacted her mobility And she weakened Not even not a wheelchair though, but not a wheelchair. She even went hiking with us on a couple of games. Oh, yeah She hiked all over, uh, and you have good genes. Yeah, she She was She was smart in that she figured out What she could do and maintain The ability to feel her toes and what made her legs go numb and the things that made her legs go numb. She stopped doing Lifting over 20 pounds was a big one. Okay, which meant no lifting children Yeah, which I know I remember Her making a comment when kylie was born She wanted to hold kylie, but she was never gonna be able to pick her up Yeah Because if she did You know by the time a toddler is at walking age, they're not 20 pounds, but they're getting there She never would have been able to pick her up. Mm-hmm She might have had a 10 pound limit. I don't remember exactly what it was. It was really light Hold a baby, but she couldn't pick one up. I remember that. Yeah and then She started having About five years ago. She started having some heart problems and eventually got into the doctor and they found 99 blockage and did emergency triple bypass The blockage was from scar tissue from the radiation and chemo. Yeah From that point on I was waiting for what's the next landmine. Yeah in fact You did an episode Either on the day that she had the surgery or the day after And you talked about how weird that was yeah that you knew that her heart had stopped. Yeah, and uh, what's next kind of thing. Yep. And so then August of 2021 She started having gallbladder pain Which I mean line up right at that point my sister had had gallbladder pain my dad had gallbladder It seemed like this was like the hottest craze So everybody's having gallbladder pain My mom came close in her 50s to getting her gallbladder removed Yeah It resolved, but that was a lingering thing that as soon as that starts hurting again, they'd go ahead and take it out It started hurting again and This was august september And october 2021 there was a major covid outbreak where she lived Yeah, she couldn't yeah, so they couldn't get imaging. She was it was completely shut down. No imaging It took forever to get her into an operating room and when the doctor got in there He found a tumor literally instead of image because there was so little imaging available They decided to do surgery first. Yep. Like wow the surgeon went in just to see what was going on The surgeon went and blind the assumption was It was a really bad gallbladder attack. The gallbladder needed to be removed He got in there and he couldn't find the gallbladder because there was a tumor there instead. Yeah And so he took a biopsy did an exploratory to see how far the tumor had gone because again It was going to be a couple months past that before The covid outbreak subsided and they could go 24 hours without imaging a covid patient No MRIs no cats. They were finally able to start doing imaging It was amazing how it was we were all worried about the hospitals collapsing In so many regards. I never thought about the effects of not having imaging. Yeah So all the radio techs out there man hurt you That was a rough time because the way the imaging equipment worked and those rooms worked They had to go at least 24 hours with no covid patients And every imager was being used at least at enough of a pace to check lung function and whatnot for covid patients so They she got the cancer diagnosis off of the biopsy It took longer to get to the imaging to actually get the full diagnosis of intra hepatic bile duct cancer That's not the proper name for it. The proper name is really hard to pronounce uh It's scientific enough that if you want to look it up, you can find it If not liver, but it's liver adjacent it well intra hepatic means within the liver No liver. It's it's a cancer of the bile duct lining Like the epithelial cells that line the bile ducts can become cancerous Just like any other cell in the body can And if it starts within the liver, it's different than if it starts around the gallbladder Which is different than if it's actually the gallbladder itself Versus it's different if it's the common bile duct below the gallbladder and the prognosis Oncologists need to be specific. Yeah, the specificity is is intense Uh intra hepatic Which my mom had is the most aggressive and has the lowest survival rates Big factor is it's the hardest to operate on because if it starts outside of the liver It can attack a different organ and cause symptoms that result in it getting diagnosed When it's small enough that they can do surgery By the time Her's got diagnosed and they got a full picture of it They couldn't surgically remove it because they would have had to take too much of her liver You know, we all learn in elementary school or middle school that you can live with what 51 percent of your liver or something I think it's about 20 Actually, um, I did that was the i'm telling you. Oh, yeah. Yes. Okay. Elementary school Like you can live with half slightly more than half of your littever Um plus or minus so like a percentage but you need to have half of it And this was that's fair. This won't this went over that They would have had to remove something like 80 percent of her liver So that was no good chance of her surviving the surgery whether or not she would have liver function was zero Yeah, they already knew that with her heart history that there wasn't any surgical option anyway I remember us holding on to the hope there for a little while, but I kind of We all knew that that wasn't going to be an option With your back surgery the surgeon refused to operate. No Uh surgeons no surgeon has ever liked the risk that my mom presented the the fact that one was willing to do it to Figure out what was going on with her gallbladder was Saying something about how bad that was The prognosis was terrible and her previous history with cancer limited options Uh Any kind of generalized radiation wasn't available because as her oncologist put it She'd already had a true nobles worth of radiation It was the only early days. They didn't know what they were doing Like I said, they kind of dumped a bucket of radiation on her and hope for the best It worked out thanks to her previous history with chemo the two chemos they tried actually three chemos they tried She didn't tolerate. Yeah There was some really cool pretty experimental treatment. She got to do one was a Uranium 91 beads that were injected into the Actual blood supply of the tumor those did had the most effect they eliminated the pain that she had and slowed the growth of the tumor now one thing I have to say for the covid pandemic is that If you're a pulmonologist, you're booked. You're you were at working 18 hour days 16 hour days every day for months oncologists were bored out of their minds Um, so apparently because the people at ohsu Jumped on her case. She had professionals from all over the pacific northwest helping her in this her specific case I will not be surprised if her name is chose up on a research paper here coming up soon because They had seen very little of what she was going through there. They're bile deck cancers are There's about 8,000 a year in the u.s Sounds like a lot, but it's not that's yeah, that's that's there's a couple in each state More than a few if you're in texas or or california because they're big states But in the northwest there's there's not many uh the y90 was really cool She got to do that And it provided benefit That was great. She did an immunotherapy And these immunotherapies are really cool because and super promising It's an area where there's a lot of research going in where they are targeting immune regulator molecules that tumors hijack to get the immune system to ignore them and if you can block that that that regulation pathway the immune system Can have a better chance of knocking out the tumor She was on it two months It did not change Anything with the tumor, but it did end up killing her adrenal gland Yeah, which this was this was a gonna go. Yeah, and this was a particular kind of of medication that uh, though It was a near basically if you survived long enough after taking it which Nobody survived very long after taking it, but if you survived long enough You would have some kind of autoimmune disorder Antithyroid was the most common. My mom doesn't have a functioning thyroid. So It found something else. It got the adrenal gland and It was a long process It was a brutal process We were lucky that we managed to be on our visits She was doing well We didn't see her at her worst most of the time until she broke her hip Yeah, and you know what they say about little ladies who break their hips She knew it she worked in a nursing home for a long time. Yep But um and everything everything she did was to prevent that from happening But sooner or later when your bones don't hold up your body anymore something's got to give so That's what gave yep, so Yeah, she broke her hip She was hoping to get surgery The doctor Said that there was a big chance that she wouldn't survive the anesthesia. She said that's fine That that's not that's not bad Like she didn't see that as a negative at that point but the anesthesiologist Wasn't willing to take the risk maybe an Oregon, but they're not suicide doctors. Yeah, they're not gonna Harm a patient in any way if she had held liable. She could have gone that route Because she was an Oregon. She couldn't go that route because she's Adventist And that was really frustrating for me because here I see a woman a very proud woman who worked in this field for a long time Seeing things happen right before her eyes that she never wanted to have happen. Yeah um And in Oregon there there's an out as long as you are of Sound mind and have two doctors And less than six months to live. She probably had a dozen doctors and definitely less than six months She could have made that choice. Yeah, uh, but I didn't fully understand How Adventists view the afterlife so That's okay, you know, that's not It's an individual's decision to do that So she chose not to for as many religious people would choose not like even non religious people would have a hard time Signing that paper, you know, it's and it's one where the number of people who Would sign that paper Be able to sign off on that while being of Sound of mind is very few Well, it's like saying that um mass shooters are insane Yes, they are inherently insane because to kill that many people is an act of insanity To end your life prematurely some would argue is an act of insanity. Therefore you can't be of sound mind Which is why it hasn't caught on anywhere else. Yeah, uh, I don't necessarily believe that now if you are terminally ill it is You know, there is a point And and that was one of the things that we we got to see was there was a point when she was of sound mind and could have made that determination and then there was the period of time where Her sound mind was gone. Yeah, and that was hard to see uh since Her diagnosis We made nine trips thousand 60 miles round trip Uh Seven of those were in the last year and averaging what 11 hours Total about 10 hour travel time slower in the winter with and slower when kylie was younger Yeah, yeah, when kylie was younger it took a lot longer Uh when we'd have the dogs with us it would take longer than when they were staying with somebody We got pretty good at this spring though. We're It was dead winter. It was It was a lot slower when going over the mountains for 30 miles an hour. Yeah But we got those that time in yes and each visit we made She had an improvement in quality of life. Um, she called it her kylie fix Because as soon as she'd see kylie her Everything was better And that's awesome. Yeah And i'm greatly comforted by the knowledge that we helped in that regard. Mm-hmm. Okay, let's shift gears slightly It's been long enough. You can't remember the buttons, can you? No, it's i don't know which one i want to play To get that label maker I think this is an appropriate sound this is from the schism's podcast But i still think it's an appropriate sound for the the tone I don't know it just makes your board look pretty The five stages of grief No, you had The class on this right you were a theology student you actually took the class the class okay, so as Through some of the core classes of my theology major there was The year of preaching classes one quarter of which was weddings and funerals half of the weddings and funerals class was on funerals and grief counseling and helping people through dying and the ministerial side of that Separate from that As part of a psych minor that i was one class short of finishing You said a little better there A little better It conflicted the one i needed to Abnormal psychology was the class that i needed to finish up the the minor and it conflicted with one of the core majors I hate that core core classes for my major you can't afford to do a whole another semester Just to do the one class, but yeah, anyway, so abnormal would have been fun So i did uh death and dying An entire three quarter hour course on on death and dying two people teaching it one of whom Had worked for many years as a chaplain in a hospital the other one was a master of social work who was i think they got a doctorate in psychology and Was damn she was good Uh, but i went through a class learning all about About the process I have experienced it quite a few times with cousins who died in car accidents with my grandparents dying with an A few dying of a drug overdose Uh an estranged father dying I've experienced it from a bunch of different angles as well This was totally different from any of those uh, the five stages of grief though are They're pretty common pretty standard. Uh, it's the kubler ross model It's denial anger bargaining depression acceptance I remember this from the simpsons episode and Denial depending on who you are Will determine how long it takes and what form that takes Uh, I know i'm a weirdo So denial isn't No No, she's going to do fine. She's going to be able to get the surgery She's going to make it for me denial was I'm freaked out about what I don't know I need to learn everything I can about this. Okay, so you you had it, but it came across at a very different For me, it's weird. Yeah, then the average person would have gone. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah Uh, my my my brain is just wired differently in how that how denial works Uh denial for me practicing skepticism for a long time. So You you are inherently doubtful of good news anyway. Yep. Um, or hopeful news It's like, okay. Well, yeah, that's nice. But what are the facts? That's very good training to have yeah, uh, anchor I definitely Went through there wasn't really much of the the standard, you know, phrasing of why me it's not fair or How can this happen to me or who's the blame or why would this happen? I knew the answers to all those right It was her time statistically speaking It was her time Statistically speaking if she was at high risk of bad things happening. Yeah Uh It sucked But if anything you had a few, you know, it was easy to get angry at a doctor Uh, I found it was there was a period of time where it was very there were several periods of time Because one of the things with the five stages is you can go through them multiple times through the same death Especially when it's a death that you're you've gotten a year and a half to prepare for yeah You can't complete it without closure. Yeah, so that was 18 months of going through this cycle over and over and over again Denial in in later stages denial ended up taking the form of just kind of suspension of disbelief to be Try to be positive and supportive of whatever new treatment my mom was trying Uh Anger In a lot of cases and it me just being shorter with people It was a period of time where I was just angrier at several points. Yeah, not at a thing but just in general Yeah, uh bargaining is the third phase Of course if you don't have anyone to bargain bargain with that one kind of falls flat doesn't it bargaining in this one Okay, that's that's that's what can you do to try to You know, there's negotiating with god. There's Which doesn't apply here. There's negotiating with doctors. There's just trying to figure out you know if if we try this will it Make it hurt less but that's not really bargaining That's you mostly left it up to the experts trusted the experts in their opinions My mom went my mom didn't really do any bargaining. She went with whatever the doctor suggested. She was willing to try Yeah, if it didn't work, she didn't She stopped it The closest I would come to to the bargaining would be Making as many trips as possible over there. Yeah In hopes that seeing her that many times in particular that birthday trip Uh That was when the weather was the worst that was the slowest drive. It was the most stressful Uh, but we got there for her birthday on january 5 and got to spend her last birthday with her. Yeah Uh, really bargain not really but Again, you're weird. Yeah, I'm weird. That one doesn't work all that well with me a lot of people do bargaining a lot better Well, the better Give yourself some credit Uh depression Is a pretty obvious one Um I came back to that over and over again in particular anytime We left after a visit or The newest bad new newest bad news. Yeah And The final step is acceptance Uh You jumped right to that one early on You didn't know that you were gonna have to do it over and over again though I knew I was going to have to do it over and over again. Yeah, uh, I would say for the most part. I went through In the first nine months I went through the five stages Uh, it was that Just about a year ago little over a year ago when uh, my mom sat me down and Made sure I It was clear in my mind that she was going to die We then went to the beach and I spent three days going through depression To acceptance and then we got covid. Yeah, that was fun. Uh So I had to cycle through these a few times That they didn't cover that in your class. They did. Oh good Yeah It's presented as a a linear thing. It's not linear The five stages You you move through them many times you can reach acceptance and then go back to anger Or back to bargaining or back to depression You have to get you know, almost every in according to the class everybody has to go through all five phases Bargaining is broken for me. Uh, it's a higher power based one. Yeah, that's not really Uh I went through the others several times. I Spent a lot of time going back and forth between the depression and acceptance phases Which definitely had a huge impact on How many podcast episodes I was able to do? My creative bucket has been empty I get a bucket metaphor Yeah, you had a leak you sprung a leak, but acceptance Was fleeting without closure and when she died June 29 And I got word It was closed That was the closure Closure didn't mean immediate acceptance But it closed the loop it closed the loop It's still sad Uh, it's it's taken until now to be able to Talk about it on microphone and not break down crying Never mind the hell that we were going through at the time. It's wait It feels a it was a bit a rough day. Yeah, yeah at least yeah so I love how the takeaway of that is that there are five stages of grief That everyone has to go through that may or may not apply to you Yep, that's like no Everything you learned in school and it is still tailored to the individual Well, okay, everything else that you learn about in life. Okay for for for a great example with When my grandpa died. He was 96 years old There was no denial that he was going to die He was 96 years old and he was getting fed up with waiting for how long he was going to take There was no anger. He wasn't losing anything. He had lived his life. He Spent 70 years with the love of his life. He got to hold his great great grandchildren He died in the house. He built Like there was nothing to be anger angry about there was nothing to bargain with and it was barely depressing Because he was awesome and he lived a full life and yes, it was sad that he died But it was awesome the life that he had with my mom there's There's some trauma from the end Her dying process was traumatic So as your grandpa's my grandpa's wasn't was different Okay, the generational difference was a huge factor in how that was different. They were just long Slow and they were long and slower than you prefer and I really hope I haven't inherited that resistance to death Yeah Yeah, well My grandpa was on hospice for two years It's only supposed to be six months, but he was less than six months away from dying for two years My grandma had a massive stroke that she never really woke up from and it still took her five months to die The fact that my mom beat all of the odds for everything stacked against her by at least 10 to 20 That's crazy. Yeah And but it's the same with your grandpa if you think about yeah, it was her time She got to meet your child not just meet your child, but get a relationship with your child Her and Kylie were close. Yes um What what more would she have ever wanted at the end? You gave that to her and that's That helped. I think that will help close that. Yeah, even more. That's Solid the good solid landing to focus on which is why um This whole funeral Funeral versus a celebration of life things shouldn't even be a debate. I don't know why some cultures obsess about mourning Um, I like the celebration of life idea much much more There there there is there is absolutely value in the Shared grief and support Yes, there is but i'm thinking like victorian style like morn for four years kind of stuff. That's like that's Azar like no wonder you guys were so depressed uh all right, let's let's move on to Adventist eschatology Lauren had a little bit of foreshadowing a few minutes back with Some statement about I didn't understand her And just of what she thought of the afterlife because most most of us don't I All right, so My mom was a devout seventh Adventist fifth generation or semi fourth generation that was fifth generation uh fourth generation seventh Adventist Uh on her dad's side third generation on her mom's side Uh, she was actually out of the church for about two years in About about the age of 40 and 41 and then got back as soon as she could Uh I didn't know that. Yeah, I had local politics kind of thing not local uh family family politics Uh, it was uh, that was a thing to avoid divorce that didn't Oh, okay. Yeah Didn't didn't work out and so once that was all resolved. She finally went back. Okay Uh, I was a little surprised that it took you know two years to go back, but yeah, it took yeah It took what it took but she was she was devout Adventist uh and Adventists have a very different belief than the vast majority of religious people About what happens when you die? the standard Christian concept non-adventist standard Christian concept Is that there is a immaterial soul that cannot die and a physical body that is mortal And that immortal soul Has to go somewhere when you die. Yeah, and so it either goes to heaven or hell Or in the case of catholics purgatory. Okay. Yep Or in some yeah some traditions it might get trapped on earth to haunt people Adventists recognize that as the the concept of the immaterial soul as not being something that's very well supported in the bible and it Isn't like there's one verse you can kind of read that way, but you can also easily read it not that way. Yeah Okay, and the immaterial soul concept really fits better with the with neoplatonic philosophy That was common in the Hellenistic world of the first century roman empire uh greek people The greek peoples that became christians already believed in an immaterial soul. Yeah, the the eternal divine soul And they kept that concept when they became christians and christianity kept it Since I never grew up with that that was that's a concept that has never made sense to me I think that's largely one of those things you have to believe in like you have to be raised believing it or else It's absurd Yeah, that there's this other this this immaterial other and see that there's no proof of it It's not even mentioned in the bible. I love that not very scholarly now there are plenty of verses that Read fine either way. Yeah That don't actually refer to the souls. Yeah Um the the the verse about the resurrection where You know the dead in christ or raised first It doesn't talk about their their souls being Sent from heaven down to their bodies to be raised up just that their bodies are raised out of the ground Uh disturbing when you say that part out loud Yes, but so is that entire chapter the whole book the whole book. Yeah, uh, I don't recommend reading it Uh, it's it's it's garbage. It's it's very old garbage uh but but yeah, so the that concept though is that Yeah without an immaterial soul When you die you are dead In the ground when the second coming happens Which this is where you start getting into sanctuary doctrine which despite Graduating college cum laude with the theology major and minor is in biblical languages and history and coming in third place in the greek proficiency exam wait a humble brag I barely pulled off a withdraw passing on the doctrine of the sanctuary class I could not wrap my head around it. Well I have no idea what you what it is. It is So frickin bizarre. I explain it, but just maybe the key point for this part of the discussion Yes, there is a crazy framework that makes no sense Underlying all of it but the part at the surface that That we need for this to make sense is that on october 22 1844 When jesus didn't come to earth and the great disappointment happened to the millerites Jesus the day was right. The event was wrong It was not jesus coming to earth To cleanse the sanctuary. He was going to the heavenly sanctuary. Oh Okay, that explains it in that the heavenly temple he was going into the holy of holies To do the the actual work of atonement And has been there doing the investigative judgment and the investigative judgment is where the books of everybody's life since either creation or jesus's resurrection Are reviewed to see if based on what they knew They should be saved. I like that there is a caveat for um uh ignorance, yes uh, which did come up pretty early in in Adventist circles with uh, if Jesus couldn't return until everybody on earth knew about his name. Yeah, hence the evangelical spreading of there was a So there was some efforts to send pamphlets out to islands Which worked exactly one time when some pamphlets arrived at pit karen island and everybody on the island converted to adventism Oh, there you go. And then they wrote back and asked for a pastor And so they sent a pastor from california Uh To this day pit karen island is at least nominally 100% Adventist Uh There's the added factor on that though that if you half-ass That evangelism It Dams people to hell. Oh shit Whoops Because they know but if you did a bad job of telling them about Jesus and they aren't converted Well, then they're damned Okay, okay. So, uh, maybe the pamphlets weren't such a great idea. No, no, but then there's also the the version the the concept that Well, if you got a bad presentation, then you're not held accountable by that And you're still held to the example To the standard you would have otherwise like just were you a good person an Adventist Do you believe that that if you're a good person that saves you if you're a good person who has not rejected christ You're saved. Okay. If you're a good person who has rejected christ, then you are not Whoo, which is where the whole if fun club if you're ignorant your chances of being saved are higher than if you're Straight up like yeah Uh So all that's at play and then Jesus is there in the temple in heaven going over all the books determining who's saved and who's not and Once he finishes that and didn't want to let he didn't want to be an accountant. He just wanted a life and adventure Here he is getting old. Once he gets caught up on that then probation closes Uh, there's persecution of of the true christians while all the bad christians join the catholics in the us government slash new world order To persecute the the the true christians who worship on saturday So we're persecuting The true christians. Yes, who are the Adventists the Adventists plus A bunch of people who go to church on sunday will will join them at that that moment Okay, they'll make the decision the right decision. Yes. Okay, the ones that who are saved among them will Well, the rest just join the mass persecution and become dark shadowy Government agents. Yeah, and then then run by the pope the the time of trouble is a seven-year period halfway through uh, god's grace gets removed from the earth and those who are still alive and are saved are Uh, get full temptation of satan without any protection from god and will be Going through the most horrible torture and torment. Okay That's really odd words. Yes, really odd choice of words. So okay, so we have the persecution of the true christians So they're being tortured. Yep, and then he has even worse and then we get the people who aren't saved Who are being 10 10? No, the people who aren't saved are fine They're they're just living life. Okay, so they live in life through this time period So normal everyday life. Well, meanwhile the people who were saved are On their way to heaven still have to go through torture. Yes, it means temptation I love that temptation and It all past sends getting you know brought up to them by satan and like yeah, it's Okay, so they get tortured until finally finally finally at the end of that uh Jesus returns to earth and All wickedness dies instantaneously upon looking at him. Okay So all bad people drop dead What about sunglasses? Does that no no no because when it went when Jesus returns, uh, you'll everyone will be able to see him Which I don't know how that works starting to sound like crazy person talk. Yes, everybody on the earth Uh, at the same time at the same time. It's going to look upon him. Yep, like the god from monty python Northern and southern hemisphere eastern and western hemisphere All of a sudden he can do whatever the hell he wants Um Okay, so then all the wicked people who've just been living their life. Yep. They all died quite happily. They die instantly. They're dead. Okay then the Sounds like the better of the two options at this point the the righteous dead Uh, so people who are saved that had died previously. Okay, they are resurrected Their bodies are reassembled as they were at the moment they died. Okay, so cremation is taken care of yes, okay Wondering about that and decomposition is also taken care of. Thank you. Oh jeez Nice, uh, nice detail. Yeah, so so as you were at the moment you died Which is her sucks. That's horrific. Yeah, right? The moment of death is Horrible for a lot of people. Yeah Like that's gross. That's just could have gone back six months or something, but no the moment of death Moment of death, uh, or perhaps maybe a moment before death so that you know the car accidents The how you were before the accident. Yeah, or You know without the gunshot wound 18 months. Like nope. They're how they were. They're how they were. Okay. Yeah uh So they get raised up and start ascending to join jesus in the angels and then okay They get their just rewards. They're there and all the the in heaven not yet All the the righteous people who are still alive then start floating up Into the sky and join jesus in the angels Okay, and then they travel for seven days through a riot stuck on an airplane They get taken out of the airplane. Okay before it crashes because the pilot is probably dead Okay, because everybody else has instantly died. Yes. We're got that detail. Okay and so then they they they fly through through space for seven days and Enter heaven through its gate at the center of a ryan's belt We're getting weird here again. Okay again. This sounds like the the the ramblings of a mad person She said it's Ellen white was mad mentally. She was severely ill and sure I've seen this amend in black. It looks pretty cool. Yeah, so so they go through a ryan's belt uh Interheaven where they stay for a thousand years now, that's different. That's not the usual eternity Oh wait, there's more. Oh after the thousand years. Okay the the thousand years is largely so that the people who are saved who are all upset about in some cases People are there that shouldn't be And people that should be there aren't yeah, okay they get to they get to judge the judge on that and Ask the judge all the questions and find out Why those decisions were made? And by the end of that the judge will be exonerated and everybody will be happy Who's the judge satisfied? God. Oh, okay. That's odd. It's the same God's gonna change his mind the saved get to judge God in this. Yeah, it's not gonna change anything. No Whatever because in the it's the airing of grievances the prophecy is already that in the end the rest of us God proves that he was just and he is found to be just and then male comes to comes to be useful. Okay, and then the heavenly city of Jerusalem travels physically through space coming back out through a ryan's belt and a cross space And starts to descend down through earth's atmosphere And at some point it stops in the atmosphere nice while Satan and his angels have been on earth this whole time barren wasteland for thousand years roaming with all the Bad people, right? No, the bad people are dead dead dead. Okay. So at this moment all of the dead bad people Rise Oh, they get theirs And join Satan's army Nice and then as the city touches down on earth The Satan's army tries to attack the city But then a jumbo trom goes trom that goes up and shows everybody Why they were lost and then everybody's sad and feels bad and God out of mercy burns them up But the amount of time it takes to burn up the wicked depends on how wicked they were And specifically napoleon will take longer To burn up that's hilarious then typical people that is that is written by ellen white that napoleon will take longer Satan will take the longest okay At least it ends at least you burn up for most it's instantaneous if you are particularly bad Presumably seconds or minutes Satan minutes or hours Got it got it, but then you're gone and then you're gone. Hey So you're walking around your daily life drop dead nothing You raise up. Oh, I'm part of Satan's army now. Hey, let's go attack that city. Uh burned up. I'm dead. Yep. I like that It's not like being a sinner ain't so bad. The the hell version on that is The the wages of sin is ha ha told you so Yeah, that's all it is. Isn't it? And that's not even on the sinners. That's on the good righteous people. It gives them They get to say ha ha told you so I told you so and that's that's all that this is about, huh? Sounds rather egotistical and narcissistic and self-centered, but so we're most religious people not all but obviously not all there's so a lot of good people, but did that is convoluted and not in Anyway related anything anybody else at least here in the us would remark as an afterlife. Yeah or future um Are in line with people who think that the end of the world is coming? Yes And are actively trying to have that happen whether it's by spreading the word or whatnot the For what happens after the thousand years the Adventist version For the saved is pretty similar to the Mormon like middle kingdom Okay, except the Mormon one is with lots of sex and babies and the Adventist one is no sex or gender Okay Adrogynous everybody in heaven is genderless. Oh, so when you come back and you come back as your body as the moment you die You stay like you don't stay like that forever No as you eat from the tree of life Your body has changed into perfection, which apparently is genderless. Yes like that. Okay I would also assume completely devoid of any unique features Basically turning into a stick figure Barbie and kendall Nope, that's no that's way too. That's everybody turns into a Barbie or everybody turns into a kendall Yeah, yep non-binary is the future according to Adventist or just on that a little bit sooner than others. Yeah Appreciate that. All right. So so that's That is what I grew up believing. Hey, that is what my my mom believed So you mentioned her being at rest Yes, and that that is a term that you have brought up many times through this whole Endeavor. Yes That was another one that I hadn't quite I mean, yes rest in peace that kind of thing but not quite as much as the Adventists seem to use it in the the Adventist view death is a timely death is when you are allowed to rest until the second coming. Okay So, okay. Yeah, so Adventists who are ready to die old age or terminal illness They want to rest that is a very easy thing because when people are dying They are very tired. It makes sense and they're struggling And it's easy to want that person is he that's an easy comforting thought for the survivors to say I want this person to be at rest Yes, that's yeah I like that and that was that was a metaphor that I was comfortable using through the process It was when I was comfortable communicating with my mom about because You were on the same page. I know largely Immediately that means the same exact thing to both of us. Yeah Wow It's rather beautiful actually that's probably one of the nicest things that I've gotten out of this whole 18 months was that metaphor of being at rest. I like that But also flying through a rinds belt. I I want to do that. That sounds awesome All right, that was not the best organized We're back. I I am not certain I will get another episode out this month Because I'm camping to do I will try We will my best to get another episode out this month. There will definitely be one next month I need to get back to normal Yeah Life has been crazy and the podcast is a part of my normal That I have let go And I need that back Yeah, it's eager. I know it's egotistical to feel like To be a whole person. I have to talk into a microphone and have people listen to it, but Yeah, it's it's part of your shared human experience. Yes, it is and and the the the relationship that that we have and we Including all of the listeners and the patrons That is that's a part of my life that I don't want to lose. I've needed to kind of distance myself from it some I I need to get back into it Yeah And I don't yeah, I don't know the pace of getting back into it I don't want to rush myself I am out of practice and I need to get back into practice And I I thank all of you for your your patience Through this All right, you can find the feedback forum at htotw.com slash contact you can leave us a voice message at 208-996-8667 Or use the speak pipe button on the website You can support the show on patreon or just wants on PayPal or with a credit debit card apple pay or google pay at htotw.com slash donate And uh, we'll be back in go back soon Remember not all those who wander are lost