This week we talk about Evangelicals, before that we have the worst defense in a lawsuit, and feedback about grief.
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Topic - What’s an Evangelical
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This week we talk about Evangelicals, before that we have the worst defense in a lawsuit, and feedback about grief.
News
Topic - What’s an Evangelical
Feedback
This episode is brought to you by:
And by our other patrons and those who want no reward.
Contact information, show notes, and links to Social Media and the like can be found at https://htotw.com
The music in this episode is:
Welcome to the Show by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4614-welcome-to-the-show
License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license
NewsSting by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4124-newssting
License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license
Ditty Pong by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4676-ditty-pong
License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license
Disco Sting by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3653-disco-sting
License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license
Sweeter Vermouth by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/4450-sweeter-vermouth
License: https://filmmusic.io/standard-license
Full shownotes can always be found at https://htotw.com/27
Humanists take on the world episode 27. What's an evangelical? Welcome to another episode of humanists take on the world I am Dustin and joining me trying to not spill her drink on the microphone is Lauren. Hey It's precarious guys. It was precarious. Oh All right, so yeah, we're back We are recording. Nope. Nope. We totally missed July. I Said the last episode. I wasn't sure if we would get another one out in July We tried we did. Um Actually, we would not have gotten it out in July. So no, it's all right. Happy August everyone Yeah, yeah, and for those of you who missed the last episode or are joining for the first time The last Over the course of about the last two years my mom went through Interhepatic bile duck cancer and died in late June so the show got lighter and lighter and lighter as I Had less and less capability Which is understandable. Yeah going from publishing an episode weekly to Not quite making monthly. Yeah Yeah, we did get some feedback though on it from Vincent via the website about the five stages of grief Hey guys I was very sorry to hear about Dustin's bomb passing But it was good to hear that you both seem to be dealing with it in a healthy way But there was just one thing I couldn't let slide when I heard you guys say that the five stages of grief is something Everyone has to go through. I immediately felt the need to look it up Turns out that that is not the case Individuals and cultures are all different and everyone experiences death or illness in their own way Some will of course go through one or more of those stages and even other stages All this to say that you are not weird for the ways in which you go through this phase of your life You are perfectly normal and human So and Dustin read that to be first initially. I wanted to get real defensive Because it sounded like the person heard that line five stages of grief paused the show looked it up wrote us a female and then maybe listen to the rest of the episode because Through our ramblings That wasn't what we were saying at all. We were saying traditionally. This is what's taught This is what said, but this is not how it usually works out Which is what this person also said And we agreed with and so we all ended up with the exact same conclusion and is correct So and the defense of anymore because and right and to clarify on You know like my position on it. I was basically quoting what I got taught in a three or four hundred level psychology class at a Adventist college Anybody who knows everybody's heard of the five stages of grief one because they've studied it in high school Uh-huh or two because of Simpson's episode or if you're weird part of it It was covered in in several classes. You never saw the Homer Simpson death episode The five stages of grief in like 30 seconds. The guy says, uh-oh, you're you're in real trouble now I don't anyway, whatever. It's a it's a good joke. It's a good show. But um, yeah, no, it is different for everybody. It There are themes but It's like everything in psychology Somebody a long time ago Wrote a book wrote the text book literally wrote a book based on What seemed to be the most common And they're white euro centric white christian probably a wealthy White christian affluent. Yeah. Yeah, I got it And then published that and then that becomes what's considered to be the normative typical Obviously people who are not neurotypical are not going to process the five stages the same Yeah, absolutely not obviously whether or not you have a belief in a higher power changes how you interact with that and I absolutely did not mean by it that people in every culture everywhere on the planet Yeah, no, but as somebody who went to school and studied some things and went to you know took some special classes about such things This is what you were spoon fed Just like everybody else who took those classes and everybody else who had interest in this stuff in high school and took psychology or whatever it's Is considered standard when it's not and for Neurotypical white christians it is relatively standard or at least it's um Enough to be considered standard. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Uh, I got this when my when my nephew overdosed I got to see the Pentecostals on the other side of his family Bargaining real heavy with god I think the five stages of grief is a better note for a baseline on The different reactions you're going to see from people who are going through grief It is not at all an outline of how you yourself are going to experience it Yeah, but for somebody who say is a chaplain and is dealing with people who have to pull the plug on their kid You're going to see a lot of emotions. You're going to see a lot of weird things that are outside the normal human behavior the way it's taught though is that basically that you need to be helping guide people through those stages and make sure they don't skip a step because They'll come back and haunt them if they don't okay. Well, I roll my eyes at that obviously But using it as a baseline to help people guide through a process That's helpful as a you know for as a therapist or a chaplain or a pastor or even just a rando If you can help them guys say you feel angry You know, you feel like bargaining with god. Do you feel like this that's normal? That's okay Uh, so it is good to that this stuff is kind of taught on a basic level But it should never be taught as a universal. It's just These are some of the things we see in people. Yeah, this is what you might come across in the future but Yeah, thank you for the comment either way this and from js via patreon Thank you for sharing your experience on htotw episode 26 death is a topic often avoided and Shouldn't be as it affects us all the five stages of grief wasn't meant to be a strict rule But whether rather a general guide It's not linear nor every stage experienced merits of the paper aside excellent episode. Thanks again for sharing Yeah This makes me feel better because that means everybody you guys got it you got the point What we were trying to make with her it sounded like we were making it or not Particularly hard with chronic long-term illnesses where you having to go through these different feelings over and over and over again Which is you know what what Dustin had to go through And talking about death is still hard It's still not something we are very comfortable with and I am way more comfortable with it than Most people and most people then again. I I took a class on it I did do some hospital chaplain training. I Yeah, I got training to be comfortable with it And for people who are comfortable with it. Yeah, it is important for us to talk about it because That helps for people who aren't comfortable talking about it Well, that's why that lady here in Boise has a death cafe And she literally invites people to come out to as I think as a coffee shop Once a month and you bring a journal or you write poems or you do something You don't even have to have had experienced a death You just go and explore those feelings because it better prepares you for when it does happen, but that's That's nice. We need more of that in our society We've got some oh if you want to contact us you can use the feedback form on the website The speak pipe Link in the show notes is fixed again So I don't think anybody's ever used it though. Well, no, but For sure. Nobody's used it in the last year and a half because it's been broken. Oh That's fixed now Yay. All right. And uh, yeah, the voicemail line. Nobody's used in a year Uh, okay. We've been half hiatus for a year. Absolutely. So that's fine. Yes, but you can always Contact you want to hear your beautiful voices, but we have a new story you want to talk about You By now you have probably all heard about the Four students that were killed in Moscow, Idaho last year brutal brutal murder brutal knifing murder The suspect was hunted down On the east coast brought back Is facing trial? Uh Big story at the height of true crime podcast era. Yes, uh, which led to its own set of issues Where on a side issue like this actually has nothing to Nothing actually to do with the killings Or the trial or any of that There is a tiktokker who claimed That a university of Idaho professor was the murderer Because she was having an affair With one of the women in the house that got killed Okay, okay. So influencer so um totally not respected at all and uh Claims that there was an affair therefore was responsible for the murder of four people Including this woman to cover up the affair cover up the affair Okay, just were Yes, same page there. That's the professor Rebecca Schofield is the professor and she filed a defamation lawsuit in December of last year against the tiktok user Ashley Gulliard Because not a single statement she made was true There was a murder Yes, she got that okay that that one detail was correct. There was no affair Schofield did not know any of the students No, let alone have any involvement with any of the students Yeah And she was just as shocked and horrified by this as everybody else in the state Which was everybody else in moscow by the time this Yeah, and and by that time the suspect was already the suspect tracked down Through dna Found at the crime scene On the murder weapon Was already in custody so Yeah So she filed the defamation lawsuit in december 2022 Which tells you know that's That doesn't make for a very interesting story if it was just a person who randomly chose a random person But it's the background of this tiktok or that it's just like what the fuck so the Gulliard You know, of course she refused to take down the videos Which got her the lawsuit She is still refusing to take down the videos And she is also refusing to hire a lawyer to defend her And is representing herself in court and ever ever at this point everybody goes ah And nods like yep, she's one of those now if you defend yourself in court you're fucked as a a podcaster uh the the risk of somebody Being talked about on a show Resulting in the threat of a lawsuit demanding the episode be taken down is something that I have thought about several times However, when I make a statement of fact about somebody it's based on a source Opinion is not defamation knowingly making false statements is when it causes harm so This is not a case of a slaps suit to shut somebody up Gulliard has spiritual abilities and divine revelation is how she knows Who actually did it? that Ignore the guy Who's been arrested and charged yep? It's going to trial Uh who studied criminal um justice Obsessively apparently This is going to be a Netflix drama. We know it is Ignore all that and focus on this rando And drag her knee I mean, I remember this being this was big news when it hit because there was a shocking murder And then this random professor was named as the killer her life was turned upside down for months Yep, she was getting threatened She she could have lost everything Because this random person on tiktoks named her How she even got the name. I don't know if she went through the phone book or Faculty director or something like what did she have a beef with this person? I have no idea But it's it's this is exactly why these kinds of lawsuits exist because you can't ruin a person's life Randomly for no apparent reason claiming god told you so and get away with it uh Yeah, gully art is making not just Trying to get the case dismissed, but she's trying to do counter claims That everything she's saying is factual and that this lawsuit is ruining her life thus Scofield is at fault for getting these accusations against her and Like it's it's it's absolutely nuts And I think this has all been played out before with psychics You know, it's yeah I mean the psychic claims that so-and-so is the murderer police department goes after them It's not true. They sue the psychic for making it up basically and it this does not end well no, no and it's Satisfying to watch her drag herself further down by itself representing and will continue to watch the story isn't it unfolds All right. Well, let's move on So All right, so what is an evangelical? Apparently I have no clue We talk about evangelicals all the time. It's kind of important. They show up in news stories all the time Pew pew surveys for for example the leading indication that somebody would be supporting trump Is that they are a white evangelical the Leading into indication that somebody is a christian nationalist Is that they are white evangelicals The leading indication that somebody is a homophobic racist misogynistic Horrible piece of ship bigot is that they are a white evangelical but What the hell is an evangelical Yeah, because all these years Dustin's been using this word To describe a segment of the population which I agreed with it's like, oh, yeah, they're definitely they're even no Jokel until he mentioned the Seventh-day Adventists Now in my mind Seventh-day Adventists one of their things is that they need to let everyone in the world know that Jesus was a thing Before the end of the world could happen They go out and they proselytize in my little crocodilian brain I thought that if they're evangelizing that must mean they're even jellicles evangelicals So that that that was my assumption and then he made this comment together. Oh, they're finally considered evangelicals I'm like, what are you talking about? They always have been And he's like, well, this is the definition. I'm like, well, what the hell does that mean? And it was like it was like reading the dictionary for the first time. I was like, I didn't know Okay, so Loquialisms rule not not technicalities term evangelical dates back to Martin Luther. I can Luther's let's just mess and stuff up We're talking 16 the 16th century. All right It Evangel literally means good news It's the same as the gospel the gospel Books of the bible the first four four books of the new testament are called the evangelists Okay, especially in that time period that is old timey language that has generally fallen out of favor as gospel has gone to mean that not you know yeah so And he considered evangelicals to be the same as Protestants also Reformed at that time was the same as Protestants Yeah, and at that mean the same anymore, but at that time what it meant was that people who followed a reformed Style of Christianity and were in protest against the catholic church actually believed in the gospel Unlike those dirty catholics That's what it all comes down to that's versus them, right? That was that was the 16th century original Evangelist or evangelical not catholic. It just meant not catholic. Okay, which we have so many words for within one generation Protestant and reformed were not Synonyms, but overlapped venn diagram kind of thing Not not really venn diagram reformed what became a subset of Protestants. Okay, okay where that the reformed churches were those were the Calvinist churches very strict predestination okay while Lutheranism was soft predestination and then you had Arminianism and Anglicanism with the rest of the the rest of the not catholics the Anglicans Yeah, okay, and few weirdos who uh loved the weirdos was uh That you could have free will and faith because initially the whole concept of like a big part of the original Protestant Reformation was that you cannot choose to be saved Because that's a work If you can even make the choice to accept salvation then that is doing something to earn salvation And then it's not salvation by faith. That's still salvation by works Okay, I'm sorry. This is another episode because It's been long enough since we talked about this time. Just did you put booze in this? Yes, just drunk enough I thought you wanted. I'm getting lost No, I'm not getting lost. This is interesting and I'm getting diverted I'm reverting but this is this is all this is all important. Okay to understand it. So it is There was the history for you. There was the split between Right, right. So so then this is so important. That's what every history it ever has ever said so the the with time Free will Protestant theology became a thing And it's what the Anglicans went for and various other movements went for it as well Free will theology was difficult for Protestants for the reasons we we already mentioned but And how that all works out is incredibly complicated and there are very acinine books Libraries of acinine books about how those all interplay and podcasts. I'm sure Yeah, schisms Schisms never got that. Okay. You weren't you weren't able to get that. You were never made it to the first Never made it that far. Yeah someday So Protestant reform started meaning different things. Okay, and then Around the time of John Wesley in the 18th century part of the first great awakening there was the beginnings of the early evangelical movement Okay, so what does that mean? these were people who strongly promoted that to be A true Christian you needed to be born again You had to actually have a conversion experience That the water dunking or Necessarily alone in a cave for a week. No doing drugs. No, I think no the so for for churches like the Methodist which john wesley established uh infant baptism was continued to be practiced but There was expected to be a conversion experience that would happen sometime later that the baptism was about bringing you into the community the churches that rejected infant baptism the baptists and a baptist and later baptists uh that baptism was part of that conversion experience Oh, which is why they do the baptisms way way way later Because that's part of the conversion process versus an infant can't make that decision right the 12 year olds can Right. Yeah, they get busted with something and need to make good with mommy and daddy sure so then That was the the so the early form of the evangelical movement was focused on the conversion experience the person being changed by salvation and becoming a better person and sharing that with others Okay, so does that mean that born again is just another word for Evangelical evangelical yes those are interchangeable Yes, okay, and still today they are interchangeable almost always There's always an asterisk with you. Yes, but okay almost always the most part for this If somebody says they are born again that person is Almost definitely Some kind of evangelical whether they would identify as an evangelical or not Okay Okay Because that's where it also gets tricky. So but we'll get to get to there uh, so as As time progressed the evangelicalism Was a general movement within christianity. It was not denominations it was Just a general movement within christians across Protestant denominations. Okay, so you could find evangelicals in every church That didn't mean they needed to leave that church and start other churches Although many of them did many of them did I've heard so many evangelical churches and so was basement because their church wasn't right. I'll do it better themselves so then that continued Until You know evangelicalism was kind of starting to die out Around the the turn of the 20th century and it had a resurgence That really took hold in the 1980s with the moral majority and ronald ragan and roversus weighed and They all got funneled into the republican party And that's how we get to modern evangelicals. Okay Now the way the term gets used evangelical the term uses use so much differently nowadays And it was ever used when I was growing up before high school. I like yeah different so pre september 11. I would say in in general when somebody is talking about Evangelicals as a subset of christianity that is somebody who breaks Protestant christianity at least in the united states really into three categories mainline Well, okay mainstream no mainline main line Um, okay. There's gonna be actually be more more categories here. There's there's main line. Okay evangelical. Okay, the black church And the weirdos Okay Okay. No, okay. Yeah, i'm seeing it now. I started noticing a few years ago on charts Adventists not being listed separately with the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses with a capital w the weirdos the weirdos and at least by 2014 pew had shifted Adventists into The evangelical grouping I really need to get that soundboard back going with the pew pews It's over here. You just can't reach it Smart, but I do need laser pew pews for every single time you say pew And you just are calling them pew pews to get me to shut up So so that's what what what what's what's interesting there is for in the case of Adventists they they started in the 1950s a very concerted effort to be Viewed as mainstream getting out of the weirdos. Yeah and They work their asses off buying up hospitals and expanding how many people they were getting through medical school and dental school and nursing school and into communities everywhere To get Adventists everywhere to get Adventists into positions where they're interacting with people everywhere Right because it's good to have a community But it's even better to have everybody spread out everywhere which Adventists had already been doing But it was very much a focus on be in the community not just live in these communities be in the community and try and be more mainstream well Adventists a whole damn it And blend in Adventists city is sounded by by any definition of evangelical Unless you get into the leucine covenant definition, which they are not um, that's his own thing that we did an episode about in march, I believe uh they are that they Adventists have always been evangelical by any definition of the term At least when I was growing up and going to Adventist schools and getting a degree in theology and going to the Adventist seminary Evangelicals were always other We were not evangelicals the evangelicals were something else and from any reasonable External look at what Adventists are and what they do They are evangelicals They have the born-again experience. Yep Um some kind of baptism or yeah adult baptism. They focus on sanctification and doing good works They just have weird you Adventist revelation seminars are evangelistic series They're literally called evangelistic series, which is why when you said oh look they're finally actually being included i'm like But it's in the you can't Graduate from the Adventist seminary without preaching an evangelistic series Yeah, you have to do evangelism to be an Adventist pastor And yet it was yeah, but that's not us But evangelicals were people who went to church on sunday And yeah So somebody high up Has been made the decision long ago and has been working their butt off to make sda's look more mainstream Maybe and not in actuality, but in the media I think the attempt was to try to get Adventists look like they were mainline To make them look like they were methodists because it won't check nobody's opinions about that will change until they start showing up at a differently in charts from pew Now so somebody pew pushed this when it comes to How the terms are being used in those charts the mainline churches Are the liberal and moderate churches? So what's left of the methodist church is mainline the evangelical Lutherans, which are not evangelical Lutherans your mainline Not all Lutherans Some Presbyterians and not all Presbyterians the episcopal not the anglicans Yeah, because there have been a bunch of schisms In these churches when it stopped when for the most part when the evangelicals within these denominations weren't happy continuing to go to church with people who weren't Evangelical and they started splitting which makes sense if you've had this born-again Revelation you've chosen you know if you have this spiritual movement and then you find out the guy next you I guess chose not to You don't feel equal. Yeah, so if you look at the mainline churches They're way more liberal Most of them have ordained women as pastors if not all of them uh The the congregationalists are also mainline. So the uh The group that the Unitarian split from That are still Christian. They're their mainline Christians Um women pastors are common. They're they are pretty much all Gay affirming are they the biggest slice of pie in america or are they Like when main line you make it sound like the word the term main line makes it sound like they're the majority But that doesn't sound like the majority of churchgoers Uh I don't know about attendees as far as membership goes they are about half of Protestants in the United States Which would be Main line. I get that. Okay. Main line is A synonym of that is old line That these are the old Protestant churches And the evangelicals are the The schismatic groups that broke out as a grammatically poor choice of words that now it's very confusing So but this but the mainline church is one of the other big factors is they all accept evolution and reject creationism They usually go for some kind of intelligent design or theistically guided evolution But they accept evolution and don't argue with the scientific facts. They try to interject god At all the question marks I haven't reintroduced that in like third grade. The boy I really really liked Uh Made that argument once when we're arguing about evolution in third grade because that's apparently what you do Yeah, and uh, I just called bs on it. I'm like but you know if that's Makes sense if you think that there's definitely something there. There's some kind of gods. I'm kind of spiritual Well, of course, then you maybe it was just pushed by them. Maybe if that makes sense to them now the evangelical churches in these groupings are all of the conservative churches Who nearly all of them do not? Ordain women Right There are a few not many Uh, they are almost all young earth creationists with some room for intelligent design They are anti-gay Like that's the the churches that are in the the pentecostal camp Um It's going to be a lot more fundamentalist. It's the southern baptist. It's 95 of non-denominational churches It's all of the pentecostal churches It's the offshoot from the methodist church. It's the Anglican church in america it's most of the presbyterian church well the missouri synod of the presbyterian church it's It's confusing. Yeah, would you try to get into too many details, which is why a lot of people don't Why it's hard to actually find solid answers on what these terms mean because some people will call themselves one thing But they are another thing, but that thing is also an innocent of them for another thing And it all just sounds crazy to an atheist because there are there are evangelical denominations That call themselves evangelical There are mainline denominations that call themselves evangelical that are not There are evangelical denominations who would not identify themselves as evangelical Such as the seventh amethyst church despite being evangelical there are Evangelicals who are members of mainline Protestant denominations Yeah, okay, it's messy absolutely most of my religious studies Uh pretty much went out the window when I started watching anime And I started watching neon genesis even gellian and I couldn't even pronounce the word correctly anymore by the time I hit high school So that's that's where I was coming from so I Did a lot of studying and like late middle school before they started like really eyeballing me at school Just started kind of started shutting that down and then once I got into anime that was the end of that so when people talk about evangelicals it is a synonym for conservative mainstream Christians Jehovah's witnesses and Mormons are not evangelicals They are other Jehovah's witness don't have like any kind of born-again experience Uh, they don't believe neither Jehovah's witnesses nor Mormons believe that Jesus is god Oh trinity thing. Yeah, okay Non-trinitarian automatically puts you into a different group Which is one of the reasons why adventa started in the weirdo groups and it took them 50 years to get moved into one of the non weirdo groups Uh, the the doxology is a a hymn that most churches have that the trinitarian version ends with father son and holy ghost the Adventist hymnal did not add that part that line did not put that line in until the 1980 edition the earlier editions Of the hymnal were non-trinitarian They shouldn't feel like they have to change themselves to be accepted by society They had the Adventists had mostly moved that direction by that point. Okay, uh, but the question is like why would they do that? Why would they push themselves to be something they're not? I I actually did a I did a paper on it in in the seminary on uh when at what point Adventists Became trinitarian and the earliest reference I found to the holy spirit As part like what I basically found is by about 1875 ish Uh Adventists had reviewing Jesus as fully god the holy spirit was not viewed as like a person of any kind Until the 1890s an entity an entity Okay That came about the 1890s was when that was first Like the first mention I found in any Adventist publication referring to the holy spirit As a person was 1890s it was 1890. Okay and then Very like virtually no discussion after that and then by the 1950s the church was just officially saying they were trinitarian And it took another 30 years to get most of the members are Come along with them on that so weird how religious evolve over time Yeah, and the the leadership moves way faster than the membership usually. Yeah um but the uh the final point on on evangelicals is when you look at some of the the most staunchly evangelical denominations. Okay, the the most quintessential is the southern baptist convention uh, it is the largest And the most influential within the the general evangelical movement Which even using that term There are evangelicals who are not part of the evangelical movement because of course there are because of how words are get used um colloquial versus technical definitions and which technical definition because there's five or six of them but the southern baptist church is the the most quintessential and the fact that evangelicals are somebody being a white evangelical being the Single greatest predictor as to whether or not somebody is a christian nationalist Should not be surprising considering the southern baptist church Exists because of a split over slavery and they were on the slavery side through the segregation era the Venn diagram of kkk members and southern baptists overlapped greatly which you mentioned early on there was this multiple different types of You know Protestants in america and you mentioned the black church. Yes. Where does the black church fit in all of this? obviously if evangelical I can't even say the word anymore Uh something that can cross over multiple churches different denominations. Oh, that's true with black churches as well, right? I mean Black churches absolutely can be evangelical the Traditionally black denominations aren't typically counted with the evangelicals though because they Don't fit neatly with that group on like with the pew study for studies for example, there's enough social differences that They just don't mix or they're more lit the black churches are way more liberal The the black evangelical churches are way more liberal than the white evangelical churches because you need to think of black church going down to the river is like one of those images that is Firmly in in my mind about that's that's a part of those churches. It's that in the singing and the hours Black churches are are evangelical. They are they don't count in these they are sometimes counted with evangelical. They usually aren't That's why because evangelical is taken on this whole another connotation. Yes white nationalism They don't fit with that Which is why it's white evangelical White correlates with white nationalism. Okay. Got it Well, obviously I wouldn't count a black church as being a white evangelical, right But I'm surprised that you when you mentioned that that's there was those Splits that was like the black churches like well, what about them? the black churches don't neatly fit into Do their own thing we fit into the cabin if they do share a lot of the same Okay All right, that's it for this week if you want to contact us you can use the feedback form At h2tw.com slash contact use the speak pipe link in the show notes or call us at 208-996-8667 You can also find that in the show notes You can support us on patreon or just wants a PayPal credit debit apple pay google pay And find the links at h2tw.com slash donate And until next time remember not all those who wander are lost