{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.44,"body":"Humanist Take on the World, episode 39, Bird Flu."},{"startTime":4.44,"endTime":13.46,"body":"Welcome to another episode of Humanist Take on the World."},{"startTime":13.46,"endTime":15.58,"body":"I am Dustin, and joining me is Lauren."},{"startTime":15.58,"endTime":16.26,"body":"Hello."},{"startTime":16.26,"endTime":24.08,"body":"All right, so I'm sure you've all seen the news about bird flu so much lately."},{"startTime":24.08,"endTime":26.12,"body":"Maybe."},{"startTime":26.12,"endTime":28.82,"body":"A lot of people haven't."},{"startTime":29.1,"endTime":32.88,"body":"It's definitely one of those things that when you are paying attention to it, you're seeing"},{"startTime":32.88,"endTime":36.4,"body":"it everywhere, and when you're not paying attention to it, you're like, what?"},{"startTime":36.4,"endTime":37.9,"body":"Oh, absolutely."},{"startTime":37.9,"endTime":40.38,"body":"And it's..."},{"startTime":40.38,"endTime":43.1,"body":"I'm a birder, so I've definitely been following it over the years."},{"startTime":43.1,"endTime":43.6,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":43.6,"endTime":46.9,"body":"Like, we saw this..."},{"startTime":46.9,"endTime":55.22,"body":"Yeah, you saw more of it than I did, because 2020, working from home, and you and Kylie"},{"startTime":55.22,"endTime":58.82,"body":"going for walks to the park and then seeing all the dead birds in the park."},{"startTime":58.82,"endTime":60.92,"body":"I mean, a few."},{"startTime":60.92,"endTime":63.12,"body":"We were lucky that we didn't see much."},{"startTime":63.12,"endTime":71.74,"body":"But I do follow the people who, like, wait for the snow geese to migrate in, and then thousands"},{"startTime":71.74,"endTime":73.2,"body":"of them are washing up on Lake Lowell."},{"startTime":73.2,"endTime":75.1,"body":"Like, that kind of thing was definitely..."},{"startTime":76.0,"endTime":77.36,"body":"I was seeing that."},{"startTime":77.36,"endTime":83.6,"body":"Lake Lowell, for those of you that aren't from around here, that's just south of Nampa,"},{"startTime":83.6,"endTime":84.0,"body":"Idaho."},{"startTime":84.0,"endTime":85.2,"body":"A little reservoir."},{"startTime":85.2,"endTime":94.98,"body":"And, like, seen stories about, you know, a couple years ago, elephant seal pups in the"},{"startTime":94.98,"endTime":101.06,"body":"very southern tip of South America, like, a whole generation of them, a whole year's worth"},{"startTime":101.06,"endTime":104.52,"body":"of them all dying of this influenza."},{"startTime":104.52,"endTime":107.98,"body":"We've been seeing stuff in the news lately about..."},{"startTime":107.98,"endTime":110.68,"body":"Have you seen the price of eggs?"},{"startTime":110.68,"endTime":111.62,"body":"Yeah, man."},{"startTime":111.62,"endTime":112.22,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":112.22,"endTime":116.98,"body":"Egg prices way up, egg shortages, plus..."},{"startTime":116.98,"endTime":122.2,"body":"And I hear, I thought housing was the thing that was affecting us most, and then they jacked,"},{"startTime":122.2,"endTime":125.88,"body":"they went for our eggs, and it's like, no, wait, we actually eat those on a weekly basis."},{"startTime":125.88,"endTime":129.64,"body":"This is far more important than a once-every-30-year purchase."},{"startTime":129.64,"endTime":138.34,"body":"So, my goal here is not to be the be-all, end-all of everything you need to know about it."},{"startTime":138.34,"endTime":143.4,"body":"You've been trying, as a person who lives with him, who has to sit through these conversations"},{"startTime":143.4,"endTime":144.98,"body":"on a nearly daily basis."},{"startTime":144.98,"endTime":151.88,"body":"So, there will be, in the show notes, a link to a SciShow video."},{"startTime":152.2,"endTime":155.02,"body":"That is much longer than their normal ones."},{"startTime":155.02,"endTime":158.54,"body":"Like, this thing pushes almost an hour long."},{"startTime":158.54,"endTime":162.22,"body":"They put a lot of work into it with as much detail as possible."},{"startTime":162.22,"endTime":163.7,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":163.7,"endTime":165.22,"body":"They did all the work for you."},{"startTime":165.22,"endTime":166.66,"body":"Good old Hank."},{"startTime":166.66,"endTime":170.04,"body":"He actually wasn't on it at all."},{"startTime":170.04,"endTime":170.6,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":170.6,"endTime":171.9,"body":"No Hank Green on that one."},{"startTime":171.9,"endTime":175.14,"body":"They had a guest epidemiologist."},{"startTime":175.58,"endTime":181.38,"body":"When you're in the, you know, when you're the name's name for science communication, you"},{"startTime":181.38,"endTime":182.8,"body":"can get whoever you want on your show."},{"startTime":182.8,"endTime":183.98,"body":"You don't have to be there."},{"startTime":183.98,"endTime":184.54,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":184.54,"endTime":185.52,"body":"You got a team."},{"startTime":185.52,"endTime":188.66,"body":"So, I guess it's not just Hank Green's team."},{"startTime":188.66,"endTime":191.36,"body":"It's a SciShow."},{"startTime":191.36,"endTime":191.92,"body":"They're awesome."},{"startTime":193.04,"endTime":200.04,"body":"So, the, I think a good place to start with this is, you know, since we did all go through"},{"startTime":200.04,"endTime":205.72,"body":"a pandemic not long ago, what are influenza pandemics?"},{"startTime":205.72,"endTime":207.36,"body":"Like, what's the basic history on that?"},{"startTime":208.8,"endTime":217.56,"body":"And from what I've read on it, there were five or six prior to the 20th century, depending"},{"startTime":217.56,"endTime":218.44,"body":"on who you ask."},{"startTime":218.44,"endTime":227.68,"body":"One of the reasons is the 1890 Russian influenza pandemic is now being thought to be more likely"},{"startTime":227.68,"endTime":228.6,"body":"to have been a coronavirus."},{"startTime":228.6,"endTime":231.78,"body":"Potato, potato at this point?"},{"startTime":231.78,"endTime":238.78,"body":"The actual cause of the pandemic, I don't think, is nearly as important as the actual..."},{"startTime":238.8,"endTime":247.08,"body":"Because the big thing that happens with either one is pneumonia, killing a bunch of people."},{"startTime":247.08,"endTime":247.74,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":247.74,"endTime":251.64,"body":"So, the worst of all of..."},{"startTime":251.64,"endTime":253.42,"body":"The cause of death is your heart stopping."},{"startTime":253.42,"endTime":255.34,"body":"Therefore, it's a heart attack."},{"startTime":255.34,"endTime":257.3,"body":"It's like, well, no, there's all this other stuff, too."},{"startTime":257.3,"endTime":259.4,"body":"It's like, well, the cause of your pneumonia is..."},{"startTime":259.4,"endTime":259.94,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":259.94,"endTime":261.26,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":261.26,"endTime":261.9,"body":"It's pneumonia."},{"startTime":261.9,"endTime":268.78,"body":"So, of course, we've all heard about 1918 and the Spanish flu, which, depending on..."},{"startTime":268.78,"endTime":277.64,"body":"Depending on what sources you're looking at, killed anywhere from 17 to 100 million people."},{"startTime":277.64,"endTime":279.14,"body":"17 people?"},{"startTime":279.14,"endTime":283.5,"body":"17 million to 100 million people."},{"startTime":283.5,"endTime":285.7,"body":"Syntax is everything."},{"startTime":285.7,"endTime":286.72,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":286.72,"endTime":292.7,"body":"At that time, there was 1.8 billion people in the world and..."},{"startTime":292.7,"endTime":294.84,"body":"1.8 billion people."},{"startTime":294.84,"endTime":295.24,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":295.24,"endTime":295.8,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":295.8,"endTime":296.4,"body":"I just..."},{"startTime":296.4,"endTime":296.8,"body":"We just..."},{"startTime":296.8,"endTime":296.94,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":296.94,"endTime":297.9,"body":"We just approached eight?"},{"startTime":297.9,"endTime":298.08,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":298.78,"endTime":299.64,"body":"We're over eight now."},{"startTime":299.64,"endTime":301.6,"body":"We're over eight, and it's like, oh my gosh."},{"startTime":301.6,"endTime":303.26,"body":"We're approaching eight, yeah."},{"startTime":303.26,"endTime":303.94,"body":"Three years ago."},{"startTime":303.94,"endTime":305.64,"body":"And there..."},{"startTime":305.64,"endTime":306.64,"body":"The infection..."},{"startTime":306.64,"endTime":315.36,"body":"It is estimated that anywhere from 33 to more than 56% of the world's population was infected"},{"startTime":315.36,"endTime":328.0,"body":"with it, resulting in, again, 17 to 100 million deaths, 17 million to 100 million deaths for a case fatality rate of anywhere from 2 to 10%."},{"startTime":328.0,"endTime":348.24,"body":"Some of that varies based on 33% of the population, it was more like 33% and there are some islands where, yeah, it could be much, much higher."},{"startTime":348.24,"endTime":353.96,"body":"Yes, but this is science we're talking about, so we're only worried about European descended white people."},{"startTime":353.96,"endTime":358.12,"body":"It's the only ones we care about when we're counting numbers like this, right?"},{"startTime":358.12,"endTime":364.84,"body":"It was a long time ago, but those numbers are getting updated."},{"startTime":364.84,"endTime":365.74,"body":"We're talking about 1918."},{"startTime":365.74,"endTime":366.78,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":366.78,"endTime":369.84,"body":"They really did not care about Native Americans."},{"startTime":369.84,"endTime":373.4,"body":"Some would argue they still don't."},{"startTime":373.4,"endTime":385.38,"body":"Like, they found, even the British government found very differing death rates between the British soldiers and Indian soldiers in the British Imperial Army."},{"startTime":387.14,"endTime":393.34,"body":"Because, of course, this all hit during World War I, and it spread like crazy through the trenches."},{"startTime":393.34,"endTime":395.38,"body":"Fun."},{"startTime":395.38,"endTime":406.38,"body":"And went from about 1918 through 1920, 1921 time period before it finally..."},{"startTime":406.38,"endTime":407.82,"body":"Was considered over."},{"startTime":407.82,"endTime":411.2,"body":"Wasn't killing people as much."},{"startTime":411.2,"endTime":412.26,"body":"The new normal."},{"startTime":412.9,"endTime":419.26,"body":"It became a normal flu strain because by that point, enough people had some immunity to it."},{"startTime":419.26,"endTime":439.8,"body":"Because, realistically, typical flu season, even now, there's between 290,000 and 650,000 deaths worldwide every year from just normal flu strains."},{"startTime":439.8,"endTime":440.68,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":440.68,"endTime":442.38,"body":"Non-pandemic."},{"startTime":442.9,"endTime":448.92,"body":"And what makes it a pandemic strain is when it's a brand new strain that nobody has immunity to."},{"startTime":448.92,"endTime":456.72,"body":"It spreads throughout the world, and typically each strain has very high death rates."},{"startTime":456.72,"endTime":463.8,"body":"And then the death rate of that strain weakens, and then the new wave comes, and that starts it over."},{"startTime":463.8,"endTime":466.68,"body":"Higher death rate, and then that lowers down."},{"startTime":466.68,"endTime":469.5,"body":"New wave starts, just like we saw with COVID."},{"startTime":469.5,"endTime":470.16,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":470.16,"endTime":472.76,"body":"We're familiar with that now."},{"startTime":472.9,"endTime":478.1,"body":"Perhaps it was a lesson our grandparents might have vaguely remembered."},{"startTime":478.1,"endTime":484.32,"body":"The only thing I ever knew about 1918 was the jump rope song."},{"startTime":485.06,"endTime":490.74,"body":"That was the only thing I stuck from all that memory was the little, I had a little bird."},{"startTime":490.74,"endTime":491.98,"body":"Her name was Enza."},{"startTime":491.98,"endTime":494.48,"body":"It opened up the window, and it flew Enza."},{"startTime":494.48,"endTime":500.1,"body":"And it was a jump rope hopscotch song that was sang on school grounds."},{"startTime":500.1,"endTime":505.8,"body":"I was like, oh, so it was so part of the culture that it trickled its way down to the little kids singing songs about it."},{"startTime":505.8,"endTime":506.72,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":506.72,"endTime":512.16,"body":"I always wanted a parakeet named Enza for that, but I'm allergic."},{"startTime":512.54,"endTime":523.52,"body":"So that was the H1N1 first pandemic."},{"startTime":523.52,"endTime":530.68,"body":"Then there was the 1957 to 1958 Asian flu."},{"startTime":530.68,"endTime":539.52,"body":"it was H2N2, and the H's and N's, those are just different protein types that are on the influenza virus."},{"startTime":539.52,"endTime":541.86,"body":"So it's referring to the literal structure."},{"startTime":541.86,"endTime":542.5,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":542.5,"endTime":542.78,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":542.78,"endTime":546.46,"body":"Not like waves or new strains or anything."},{"startTime":546.46,"endTime":549.54,"body":"It is the structure of the molecules."},{"startTime":549.54,"endTime":551.72,"body":"Strains are more specific."},{"startTime":551.72,"endTime":552.26,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":553.1,"endTime":554.76,"body":"Thank you for that clarification."},{"startTime":554.76,"endTime":574.12,"body":"Then there was the Hong Kong flu of 1860, or excuse me, 1968 to 1969, H3N2, 1977 Russian flu, and the 2009 swine flu from 2009 to 2010."},{"startTime":575.4,"endTime":582.48,"body":"Each of those had a fatality rate of less than 0.2%."},{"startTime":582.48,"endTime":583.58,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":583.58,"endTime":584.26,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":584.26,"endTime":585.82,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":585.82,"endTime":593.0,"body":"Like, I vaguely remember swine flu being a thing, mostly like from New Yorker cartoons making fun of it or something."},{"startTime":593.0,"endTime":597.0,"body":"Like, it wasn't, it was a thing, but it wasn't something that was causing people panic."},{"startTime":598.38,"endTime":603.4,"body":"0.2% death rate, that's just a few old people who were probably on their deathbeds anyway."},{"startTime":603.4,"endTime":606.78,"body":"Swine flu, it wasn't old people, though."},{"startTime":606.78,"endTime":608.54,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"startTime":608.54,"endTime":609.54,"body":"That was the one that was hitting-"},{"startTime":609.54,"endTime":610.5,"body":"That was killing kids."},{"startTime":610.5,"endTime":611.12,"body":"Ah."},{"startTime":611.12,"endTime":612.04,"body":"And young adults."},{"startTime":612.04,"endTime":614.04,"body":"Not old people."},{"startTime":614.04,"endTime":614.88,"body":"0.2%."},{"startTime":614.88,"endTime":617.46,"body":"Uh, but 0.2%."},{"startTime":617.46,"endTime":617.78,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":617.78,"endTime":625.16,"body":"The reason, actually, that one was less than, that one was 0.01%."},{"startTime":625.16,"endTime":628.74,"body":"Yeah, I kind of, like, I remember it, but not-"},{"startTime":628.74,"endTime":636.84,"body":"It's one of the benefits of, this is going to sound horrible, but if a virus is most strongly"},{"startTime":636.84,"endTime":644.52,"body":"killing young adults, they are the least likely to die from it."},{"startTime":644.52,"endTime":648.02,"body":"Um, the-"},{"startTime":648.02,"endTime":648.6,"body":"Survivability!"},{"startTime":648.6,"endTime":656.56,"body":"My hypothesis on that one is that young children did better because their immune systems were"},{"startTime":656.56,"endTime":662.74,"body":"less likely to overreact, and older people, who typically are the ones who die the most"},{"startTime":662.74,"endTime":679.32,"body":"in a pandemic, are, still had some residual, uh, immunity from the Spanish flu and 1977 H1N1s."},{"startTime":679.32,"endTime":681.96,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":681.96,"endTime":686.9,"body":"So, now we have H5N1."},{"startTime":688.9,"endTime":702.1,"body":"So far, an H5, as far as we are aware, has never been a human influenza that has been"},{"startTime":702.1,"endTime":706.96,"body":"exclusively avian, as far as we are aware."},{"startTime":706.96,"endTime":712.68,"body":"Up till now, dun-dun-dun."},{"startTime":712.68,"endTime":717.7,"body":"H1s, 2s, and 3s cross species lines all the time."},{"startTime":717.7,"endTime":724.42,"body":"Um, the, but the H5 is, has historically been influenza only."},{"startTime":724.42,"endTime":726.78,"body":"Avian only."},{"startTime":726.78,"endTime":728.34,"body":"Or, excuse me, avian only."},{"startTime":728.34,"endTime":734.82,"body":"This particular type, H5N1,"},{"startTime":734.82,"endTime":740.84,"body":"has closer-related strains"},{"startTime":740.84,"endTime":745.08,"body":"that have infected a few people"},{"startTime":745.08,"endTime":748.44,"body":"at various points"},{"startTime":748.44,"endTime":750.94,"body":"since 1997."},{"startTime":750.94,"endTime":754.84,"body":"Um, at this point, through"},{"startTime":754.84,"endTime":757.04,"body":"23 different countries"},{"startTime":757.04,"endTime":762.94,"body":"per current testing"},{"startTime":762.94,"endTime":775.7,"body":"there have been a total of, well, between 2003 and"},{"startTime":775.7,"endTime":777.3,"body":"January of 2025,"},{"startTime":777.3,"endTime":780.72,"body":"there were 971 cases"},{"startTime":780.72,"endTime":781.82,"body":"confirmed"},{"startTime":781.82,"endTime":784.02,"body":"and reported to"},{"startTime":784.02,"endTime":785.8,"body":"the World Health Organization,"},{"startTime":785.8,"endTime":788.02,"body":"and that led to"},{"startTime":788.02,"endTime":790.18,"body":"467 deaths."},{"startTime":790.18,"endTime":793.84,"body":"So, at present,"},{"startTime":793.84,"endTime":795.06,"body":"H5N1"},{"startTime":795.06,"endTime":797.76,"body":"has killed"},{"startTime":797.76,"endTime":798.58,"body":"half of the people"},{"startTime":798.58,"endTime":799.92,"body":"that have been confirmed to have it."},{"startTime":799.92,"endTime":801.38,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":801.38,"endTime":803.24,"body":"Roughly a 50%"},{"startTime":803.24,"endTime":804.12,"body":"fatality rate."},{"startTime":804.12,"endTime":807.74,"body":"The United States,"},{"startTime":807.74,"endTime":808.8,"body":"specifically,"},{"startTime":808.8,"endTime":810.66,"body":"has had a total of"},{"startTime":810.66,"endTime":811.78,"body":"70 cases."},{"startTime":811.78,"endTime":814.16,"body":"So far,"},{"startTime":814.16,"endTime":815.22,"body":"only one death."},{"startTime":815.8,"endTime":817.18,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":817.18,"endTime":819.58,"body":"That..."},{"startTime":819.58,"endTime":820.7,"body":"Why are we talking about it?"},{"startTime":820.7,"endTime":822.76,"body":"Because that sounds like,"},{"startTime":822.76,"endTime":824.14,"body":"okay, it's just another strain"},{"startTime":824.14,"endTime":824.94,"body":"of something that's killed"},{"startTime":824.94,"endTime":825.92,"body":"a few people and"},{"startTime":825.92,"endTime":828.1,"body":"back to business as usual."},{"startTime":828.1,"endTime":829.58,"body":"But that's not the case."},{"startTime":829.58,"endTime":830.42,"body":"That's not the case."},{"startTime":830.42,"endTime":831.46,"body":"Um,"},{"startTime":831.46,"endTime":833.58,"body":"when"},{"startTime":833.58,"endTime":834.58,"body":"the,"},{"startTime":834.58,"endTime":835.66,"body":"the 70 cases"},{"startTime":835.66,"endTime":837.58,"body":"in the U.S."},{"startTime":837.58,"endTime":840.7,"body":"have"},{"startTime":840.7,"endTime":842.28,"body":"nearly all been"},{"startTime":842.28,"endTime":844.92,"body":"agricultural workers."},{"startTime":845.8,"endTime":847.54,"body":"who"},{"startTime":847.54,"endTime":848.88,"body":"know they are at risk"},{"startTime":848.88,"endTime":849.48,"body":"and are taking"},{"startTime":849.48,"endTime":850.04,"body":"precautions."},{"startTime":850.04,"endTime":852.78,"body":"41"},{"startTime":852.78,"endTime":854.3,"body":"of those"},{"startTime":854.3,"endTime":855.32,"body":"70 cases"},{"startTime":855.32,"endTime":857.24,"body":"were milk"},{"startTime":857.24,"endTime":857.84,"body":"splashed"},{"startTime":857.84,"endTime":858.78,"body":"in,"},{"startTime":858.78,"endTime":859.7,"body":"the milk from"},{"startTime":859.7,"endTime":860.58,"body":"an infected cow"},{"startTime":860.58,"endTime":861.16,"body":"splashing"},{"startTime":861.16,"endTime":862.54,"body":"into"},{"startTime":862.54,"endTime":864.34,"body":"a dairy worker's"},{"startTime":864.34,"endTime":864.74,"body":"eye"},{"startTime":864.74,"endTime":866.12,"body":"causing pink eye."},{"startTime":866.12,"endTime":866.52,"body":"Gross!"},{"startTime":866.52,"endTime":868.24,"body":"Sorry,"},{"startTime":868.24,"endTime":868.92,"body":"that's just gross."},{"startTime":868.92,"endTime":869.66,"body":"Pink eye,"},{"startTime":869.66,"endTime":870.42,"body":"not"},{"startTime":870.42,"endTime":871.86,"body":"respiratory infections."},{"startTime":871.86,"endTime":873.62,"body":"So..."},{"startTime":875.8,"endTime":877.72,"body":"just under"},{"startTime":877.72,"endTime":878.32,"body":"half"},{"startTime":878.32,"endTime":879.58,"body":"of the infections"},{"startTime":879.58,"endTime":880.34,"body":"in the U.S."},{"startTime":880.34,"endTime":881.42,"body":"have not been"},{"startTime":881.42,"endTime":882.12,"body":"birds,"},{"startTime":882.12,"endTime":883.54,"body":"bird-related."},{"startTime":883.54,"endTime":884.54,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":884.54,"endTime":885.92,"body":"It's from the cows."},{"startTime":885.92,"endTime":886.8,"body":"Which are mammals."},{"startTime":886.8,"endTime":887.6,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":887.6,"endTime":888.6,"body":"Okay, so we're still"},{"startTime":888.6,"endTime":889.66,"body":"calling it avian."},{"startTime":889.66,"endTime":891.14,"body":"It's avian because"},{"startTime":891.14,"endTime":892.24,"body":"that is the species"},{"startTime":892.24,"endTime":893.54,"body":"it was first identified in."},{"startTime":893.54,"endTime":894.22,"body":"Just 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