Journeys of Pride: Queer Travel with Maartje Hensen

Today's guest and I discuss some of the intricacies of queer travel. Maartje Hensen is the inspired mind behind the travel blog Once Upon a Journey and The Pride Atlas. Our conversation navigates the delicate balance between embracing authentic cultural experiences and the reality of safety for queer travelers. We peel back layers of privilege and explore the effects of colonialism on anti-queer laws, while also celebrating the vibrant destinations that offer a warm embrace to the queer community. We discuss the importance of engaging respectfully with local cultures and supporting queer spaces, while also unearthing the joy of finding unexpected queer-friendly nooks across the globe.

Visibility and representation take center stage in our discussion about the diverse spectrum of identities within the queer matrix. Maartje and I dissect the challenges of creating truly inclusive spaces, where individuals across all intersectionalities can feel safe and celebrated. Our exchange divulges personal tales of navigating public affection against the backdrop of cultural acceptance, and we underscore the importance of heeding the voices of local queer communities to foster genuine understanding and solidarity. And, we also discuss the ever-changing landscape of queer rights and the role travelers play in both experiencing and shaping this dynamic world.

In the realm of queer travel literature, Maartje offers a behind-the-scenes look at the intentional crafting of The Pride Atlas. This episode peels back the curtain on the rigorous process of selecting destinations that value inclusivity, extend beyond the gay bar scene, and truly resonate with the varied interests of the queer community. We also delve into the potential of travel to heal and transform, discussing both personal growth journeys and the emerging role of psychedelics in mental health. This is an inspiring and informative converation - whether you're a queer traveler, an ally, or simply a wanderlust enthusiast seeking to broaden your horizons with respect and advocacy at heart.

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Transcript

Maartje: 2:07

And also queer monuments. You know, like, if you go a place, like be aware of its history, you know bigger than just like, oh, here you can go to a party, which I think is sometimes a bit of a misconception that also, like, all queer people like to go to gay parties, because that's not the case. So, like I just really wanted also to show the great variety because, like we as a community we're all super diverse and you know that needed to be reflected. A community, we're all super diverse and you know that needed to be reflected. You know you also, like, if you want to go on a honeymoon, where would be a good destination where you know you can just book that honeymoon suite without like having to worry you know if it will raise some eyebrows, or I mean I have to say like of course there's always a little bit of worry because the world, like no country is free of homophobia and transphobia and the isms, but there's definitely places where it's safer to go.

Shawn: 2:59

Welcome to Deep Dive with me, Shawn C Fettig. According to the United Nations World Tour Organization, international tourism is expected to return to pre-pandemic levels this year. A recent survey of United States travelers by Nationwide Travel Insurance shows that 40% of 2023 travelers expect to travel more this year than they did in 2023, and 50% are planning to travel internationally. So where are people going? Europe was one of the strongest performers, receiving some of the most international arrivals in 2023. But Africa and the Middle East saw an even greater percentage outperforming Europe, and these trends are expected to continue through 2024.

Shawn: 3:44

For queer travelers, this is where it gets tricky. We want to travel to places that feel safe and welcoming, that don't threaten our freedoms or even our existence, but in practice, that can really limit us to very Western, very developed places, shrinking our travel worlds to similar cultures and experiences. And that kind of cloistered travel life denies us experiences with vibrant, welcoming communities in otherwise hostile, if only perceived, territory. Communities in otherwise hostile, if only perceived, territory. Equaldex is a global index that aggregates queer-related indicators such as gender-affirming care, employment discrimination, housing discrimination, equal marriage, queer adoption, etc. Into one measure of queer rights by country and region. According to Equaldex, some of the least welcoming and least safe places for queer people in the world are also some of the places seeing the greatest increase in travel Africa and the Middle East, as well as Southeast Asia. So I wonder, is it safe to travel to these regions as a gay man? Is it safe if I hide my sexuality to the best of my ability? Or are large parts of the world just off the table for me?

Shawn: 4:53

Today I'm talking to Maartje Hensen. She created and maintains the wildly successful queer travel blog Once Upon a Journey. She's a photographer and she's also the author of the queer travel book, the Pride Atlas. In our discussion we touch on things like how queer travelers can balance a desire for authentic cultural immersion with the realities of safety. What it means to travel ethically and respectfully as a queer person, without exoticizing or exploiting local queer communities. How we can recognize and check our own privilege that may come with some queer travelers like myself. Being a man and white and Western can go a long way towards security and safety when I travel in oppressive places despite being gay.

Shawn: 5:35

We discuss the legacy of colonialism and how that's contributed to some of the anti-queer sentiment and legislation in some places, as well as how we can disrupt some of these legacies of colonialism that continue to manifest in modern tourism. And, of course, we talk about some of our favorite places and pleasant travel surprises. All right, if you like this episode or any episode, please give it a like on your favorite podcast platform and or subscribe to the podcast on YouTube. And, as always, if you have any thoughts, questions or comments, please feel free to email me at deepdivewithshawn at gmailcom. Let's do a deep dive, mart. thanks for being here. How are you?

Maartje: 6:20

Thank you, hi, I'm good. Thanks for having me.

Shawn: 6:24

Absolutely. I'm excited to have you. I love traveling. I'm an avid traveler, in fact, as you know, I just got back from a European trip. I was in your city, amsterdam, actually. So I've been a follower of your work for a while. First because it's just good, solid work your photography, your writing, blogging. I think it's good for anyone that appreciates that stuff, but specifically for travelers. And second, because it's queer themed and it's important to me, especially lately, as we've been experiencing growing violence against the queer community worldwide in the past few years. You know to know where I'm going and to make sure that it's a place that's safe for me and my family. So I'm excited to talk to you about some of this stuff today.

Maartje: 7:03

Yeah, well, thanks for the compliments.

Shawn: 7:05

Absolutely. You deserve it. You've built a queer travel blog Once Upon a Journey, kind of from scratch, and it's grown into one of the largest LGBTQ plus travel and lifestyle blogs. So I'm really interested in people that build up one their own business, but two specifically, you know, pulling together from different interesting aspects of their lives and then building out something like a blog or like, as you do, a blog that focuses on queer travel and a lifestyle, and you've also done photography. So I'm kind of just interested in getting a sense of what inspired you to do this. How did you build this, how did it happen and how has that kind of evolved over time?

Maartje: 7:42

Yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, it's kind of, I guess, like a crazy story because I don't think it was like a very active plan of me to do this. I don't think at the time that I started doing this, like I don't know if I had many examples like of people doing this, but I've always had kind of like a drive for like writing and photography, and when I started traveling with my partner at the time in 2017, we went on a whole world trip like we sold all of our stuff and my partner was a woman and we did notice there wasn't a lot of researches for like queer couples online. We definitely saw a lot of gay men couples, but not a lot of couples that look like us, and so, on the way, I did kind of get a vibe like okay, I want to share more of our experience. That because, first, I had this whole other idea. The name once upon a journey was kind of based because I wanted to tell like fairy tales and folk tales of all the places I traveled to. I had this whole photography idea with like little, like miniatures or like you know how you can get like in gift shops, you can get kind of like tiny, like little things, and I was kind of like, oh, and then I can make you know a connection with like fair, it was a whole, like it was way too much to actually produce, so that never really happened, um, but then along the way, like we started sharing our own travel stories and like we were a bit more open about like us being a couple, um, which was a really scary thing to do, and I remember having a lot of arguments with rocks about like wanting to post a kissing picture when we were in japan. We were like I think three or four months into our trip and she was just like no, like we don't know what's gonna. You know, like all the hate we're gonna get, like we were just very stuck in that fear. You know, we were also like, you know, being really like kind of going back in the closets oh, we're just gal pals, you know when we were traveling.

Maartje: 9:32

But there was a part of me that felt like I guess, like visibility is good, like representation helps by not being visible, like also not having any visible examples ourselves. Uh, you know, there were a couple like I don't want to say like we're the first or anything like there were definitely a couple of trailblazers out there, but it wasn't so easy to find and, like instagram was very different at the time. So, yeah, we just started sharing more and then, like it kind of went hand in hand with like getting more questions from girl couples and, like you know, they were just kind of like, oh my god, you're doing this, like I dream of doing this, but I don't even dare to set the first step. I don't even know where to begin. Like how do you even go to like Asia? Do you dare to book a room? Do you dare to book a double bed? And these were all things. Like we were already doing these things and it was kind of it still is like wild to me that just by living and doing things that I want to do, like there is obviously also people who want to do that, but like it's a step too far for them to realize it.

Maartje: 10:34

So, like by having some visibility, you know, and like someone doing it, and like sharing that, I guess that could be helpful for some people. Which is still like crazy to me, because I'm just like, well, I guess in the Netherlands we have a saying you know, be normal. That's crazy enough. So, like being normal is very like, oh, we're all normal and everything is normal. So, like I never thought like, oh, I just thought of myself as very normal. And then, when we were doing it, I realized, oh, maybe this is not normal for everyone and so maybe this is an opportunity where, you know, we get to share and, like, we possibly get to help some people, and I think that's awesome. And then, yeah, things just kind of blew up from there. I guess a lot of people like thought it was helpful, like sometimes inspiring even, which also, you know, got to the whole point where I was kind of like overwhelmed by like, oh my God, now you see me as such an example.

Maartje: 11:27

But I'm still like a normal person and I make mistakes and you know, it was a little bit of a pressure, but it's also like yeah, so that's kind of how it went and I'm definitely someone who's kind of like. I had also heard of people like kind of making money with blogging and like I didn't understand how it worked. But like I was definitely I'm definitely someone who's like I don't know how it works, but I think I can do it, so let me just make it happen. So, yeah, that's just kind of yeah, we just went for it. And definitely a lot of people in our environment thought we were crazy for doing it, or they were like. They thought like, oh, that's cute, oh, you'll start a blog, oh, you'll write a few things, that's adorable.

Shawn: 12:06

And here we are.

Maartje: 12:08

So yeah.

Shawn: 12:09

Yeah, there's a handful of things in there that I kind of want to dig into a little bit. Early on in the response you mentioned, when you were first thinking about doing this, it was easy to find content aimed at gay men. So you've built something that really centers queer women and lesbians and trans folks, and this is something that I have always taken for granted. As a white gay man, you know I can point back into the 90s. Yeah, sometimes you had to do a little digging, but there's queer content, right Like there's gay content. And it wasn't until recently and this speaks to you know what you said that I shame on me realized when we say that it's relatively easy to find gay content, what I'm really talking about is finding content for gay men. So now you've contributed to this universe and I'm wondering if you feel like the landscape has changed and it's a bit more, when we talk about the queer community or the gay community, that it specifically includes women and trans folks in a way that it didn't.

Maartje: 13:07

Yeah, I definitely see a big shift happening. I'm very glad that, like because you know it's lovely that we're like a rainbow community, but definitely also if you look at all the prides and stuff, there's definitely a lot of white gay men at the forefront of it, while there's also still a large group of, you know, other marginalized communities within our community that aren't always, you know, comfortable or put in the center center of it. I do see a shift. I guess it is interesting because there's it's intersectionality, right like there's oppression, like in different ways and in a way, you know, like gay liberation, like a white gay man, like in the whole hierarchy in the system you know systematically, you know if being gay, if that's the oppression, you know like it's still kind of high up on the hierarchy, sadly for the other like marginalized communities, you know, and so I think there's still a lot of people.

Maartje: 14:05

And then it's also logical, because you know that is like for gay men. It's also, especially if you're very flamboyant or you know very I don't know like, if you're perceived a certain way, you know you absolutely do need safe spaces. So, like a lot of gay men, safe spaces have also been created for that purpose, you know. But I think, yeah, other communities and with different intersectionalities. It's not just, you know, like, like, especially queer women, they could also be in women's spaces. You know, like, like, especially queer women, they could also be in women's spaces. You know, to feel safe, you know it doesn't necessarily have to be a queer women's space, like it's getting very niche if you look at that um, which also happens nowadays, which I think is really cool, and I think I say nowadays, but it has always happens because we know the our community, we always have ways to find each other. It's just that not every part of the community has always been like that visible and still isn't, sadly.

Shawn: 15:02

Something else you mentioned is being visible as a tool to help other folks or to signal to other folks that the community exists and maybe to empower other folks. This is something that's on my mind, my husband and I, when we travel. There are times that we'll hold hands and I think always in the back of my mind is balancing my own safety in that space against being visible as a tool to empower other folks, right, yeah, and there are definitely times that I think you know my own safety in this moment trumps any message that I could send.

Maartje: 15:41

Yeah.

Shawn: 15:41

But that is something that's always on my mind and I'm wondering how you balance that.

Maartje: 15:46

Yeah, I think this is very tricky because, of course, personal safety is also very important. You know because also, like you can't be fist boy if you're also very important. You know because, also like you can't be fist boy if you're dead or you know like, but I also very strongly believe that you can't be. What you can't see, and I do feel a lot of our fears is also trauma and like we also kind of need to sometimes like test the waters and like see that oh, maybe a place or it has maybe changed, you know, but then again, like you also don't want to reach on with. So this is very, very tricky. Um, I do have to say, like, as a female presenting couple, for me and my now ex-partner, I do feel there was kind of a bit more of a safety net. Like for girls holding hands it's, I mean, depends where you are, because there's definitely a lot of cultures where men holding hands or like hugging, like, is the norm. But like for men holding hands, that's often, especially in western cultures, like differently perceived than if it's women or women presenting people. But yeah, it's a very, very tricky thing and I definitely have to say, like for us being visible it doesn't always mean that, like because I also want to be respectful for our culture. You know, like, if you're in places like where PDA just isn't a thing, like I'm not gonna be, like, oh, I need to be visible, you know, because, no, also like straight couples, aren't that? You know. So, like it's not like gay agenda, you know, like I definitely. Also, if you would take pictures, you know, and like show's not like gay agenda, you know, like I definitely also, if you would take pictures, you know, and like show affection, that would be at times where there would not be, like, other people around. So it was also like to create, like online visibility and in places where it was appropriate enough to do it.

Maartje: 17:26

Because, yeah, especially in offline, like in the real world, like your own safety definitely matters a lot, and I think me, coming from the netherlands, which is like uh, like I feel relatively safe in my own country, so, like when I'm traveling, I'm okay with being a bit more.

Maartje: 17:45

I guess I don't have all those traumas of people that do come from a place where it's like very not safe to do it. So I can definitely see how that would lead to more hesitancy and like, obviously, like it's a huge, huge privilege that I have, which I also don't know if that makes me like dumb sometimes or like naive, but yeah, I don't know, and sometimes I do feel like I dare to push a little bit more than other people may want to. I wanted to add that also, like, in all the places that I travel, I do try to connect with the local queer community and like hear their perspective and like what they feel safe because, like, obviously I can have my ideas and like we can base. You know, we can have an image of a country based on the laws and stuff, but like, just like literally hearing it from people in the community, you know what's, what's frowned upon, what you can get away with. You know, because you may have ideas from coming from your own perspective, but the reality may be very different.

Shawn: 18:44

I'm actually glad you bring up this last point because something that I've noticed when I travel as a gay person and something that had some locals not told me I would never have considered and I suppose this is this goes to you know, some of my white privilege, or I suppose maybe American privilege I have had in a handful of countries. Folks tell me as an American I can get away with things in their country that locals can't.

Maartje: 19:09

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's also something I wanted to say. That's another layer where, like I've definitely heard that from like locals they're like, oh, but you'll always be seen as a foreigner and like I've had comments before like, oh, but in your country, we know, in your country that's okay, you know, like in our country it isn't, but because it's in yours and like you're here now and you bring that with you for you it's okay, which is also, like, of course, like incredibly sad and also why I'm a big fan of like you know, getting in touch with the local community before you get raving about a country where it's like, oh, but actually the locals don't have like all those rights and stuff. Of course, if it's your honeymoon, like don't worry about it, like it definitely depends on what kind of trip you're on, but I always think it it's really really awesome to meet. I mean it feels like meeting family, all over the world.

Maartje: 19:55

That's, I think, the beauty of community.

Shawn: 19:57

Well, I guess that brings me to your book, the Pride Atlas, which highlights iconic destinations for queer travelers around the world, and so I love travel books to begin with. So that's my baseline, but I just really love this book for a handful of reasons. I'm not just stroking your ego. I think it's a great book, Thank you. It's really needed right now, which is actually why I got it. I'm becoming more and more cognizant of where I travel, not only for my safety, but also to be supportive of the queer community in places that I wouldn't otherwise think about. I am wondering, in putting this together, first of all, what triggered this idea? And then, second, when you were thinking about the places that you wanted to highlight as being places that are healthy, safe, good for queer travelers, what are some of the criteria that you settled on in such a way that you felt comfortable highlighting some of these places?

Maartje: 20:53

Sure, yeah, that's a very good question. And that whole process, oh, it was a beast. It feels like if you have an idea, let us know, so then I it took me a year to realize what kind of book I wanted to write. Um, which was in hindsight. I was kind of like that was hilarious, because I was kind of like what kind of travel book would I write? But like I already had a queer travel blog, so obviously it was going to be a queer travel book, but somehow it's a beer, so like let it sink in and kind of had the idea.

Maartje: 21:40

But then it hit me like you know, I got all the clarity. I had a whole complete book pitch, like including marketing ideas, and they were like, whoa, you really thought this through and I was like, yeah, but then they were like, oh, we have someone in the office that's like exactly your target audience. And I was like, oh, you have one gay in the office and he has some questions. So like I don't know if we want to move forward with this. And at this point I'm like I just see the vision and I'm just like, if someone's not 100% on board, I don't want. I don't want to work with you because I feel this, like at this point I'm like so I have this drive, I see what needs to happen and what the world needs and it it needs to be collaborative. You know, like I cannot be the only writer, because you know it needs to be by and for the community. You know I cannot speak on behalf of everyone because that's not how I move through the world, like, and no one ever can.

Maartje: 22:29

And then something crazy happens, like I'm thinking, ok, I guess I'm not going to write a book, but then a month later, I get an email from a British publishing house and they're basically pitching my book to me, like they're looking for a writer and I'm like, what in the world is this? I didn't really believe in like spiritual things or like you know, universe, but this was kind of like I cannot explain how this. Like I mean, of course there's a logical explanation, they had the idea too, and like they found my travel blog and you know, but still like that it found its way to me and that I was just kind of like this is crazy, because I have thought so much about this, I have all these ideas and they were luckily very open to all of it because I was a little I want to say harsh on some things, because they had some ideas and I was like, nope, that's nope, we're definitely not going to do that. They wanted to do like a ranking system of like how LGBT friendly. I was like we cannot, you know. That's also like. You know, if you look at colonization, you know like ranking and everything that's very has very much ties to like hierarchy and colonization and like also for who like who do we rank it for? Because your experience as a gay, white, male traveler is very different than if you're a non-binary, queer person of color, you know. So I was like that's definitely a no, but they were like so embracing it. I was like, oh my God, this is even better than I could have imagined. I could bring the people on board that I wanted to make this product with me, and then they also had input in the places. So it's really a collaborative effort because even though I've traveled a lot, like my knowledge is limited, you know, and I do believe with more people we have more knowledge, you know, and it just results in better and better product. So there was a kind of idea like. There was kind of like a global idea like this many places and we would kind of chop it into this many like regions.

Maartje: 24:23

We did have to make the hard decision to like not include countries where it's like still very illegal to be queer, which I also feel very conflicted about, because of course, yes, personal safety is very important. But I also want to mention that most anti-lgbt legislation is put in place through colonization, so like now the whole western world being like you know, oh, it's terrible, they have those laws. I'm like you know we can also reflect a little back on our like ancestors and stuff who put those in place. So, like I also don't want to. I don't really believe in boycotts. In that sense, I definitely see where a lot of change needs to be worked and I love all the decolonization work that's been happening in queer communities around the world.

Maartje: 25:05

But, yeah, I did want to put that out there. And then it was just really important that it was more than just gay bars around the world, because there's I just wanted to show like the whole variety and like that there's like not every place may be for everyone. You know that's impossible, but I wanted everyone to pick up the book, to find a place in the book that's like, oh my god, this is something for me. You know, like I remember finding out that there's a weekly or something knitting club somewhere in Australia and I'm like what? Like it's a queer knitting club. I don't know if I mentioned that but, I, was like, oh my god, that's like so cute.

Maartje: 25:45

and like you know queer bookstores and like other places that not everyone always thinks about and also queer monuments. You know, like if you go a place, like be aware of its history, you know bigger than just like, oh, here you can go to a party, which I think is sometimes a bit of a misconception that also, like all queer people like to go to gay parties, because that's not the case. So, like I just really wanted also to show the great variety because, like we as a community, we're all super diverse and you know that needed to be reflected. You know you also, like, if you want to go on a honeymoon, where would be a good destination where you know you can just book that honeymoon suite without like having to worry you know if it will raise some eyebrows, or I mean I have to say like of course there's always a little bit of worry because the world like no country is free of homophobia and transphobia and the isms, but there's definitely places where it's safer to go.

Shawn: 26:38

I guess I'm glad you bring up this point because it's going to flip a couple of my other questions related to ranking on their head. Sorry, no, that's good, because I don't know why, although it's entirely obvious, most ranking systems rank the safest places for queer folks in the Western world, predominantly white countries with colonial histories, and the least safe places, like in the Middle East and Africa and parts of Asia.

Maartje: 27:03

Yeah.

Shawn: 27:03

At the same time, though, it is absolutely true that we are living in a time when the reality is that some of these countries for probably dominant society and in the queer community, that's white folks, gay white men predominantly it is true that these countries, some of these countries, are just safer, for the most part, than are some countries in the middle east, africa and parts of asia. I you know, this is definitely something that I consider when traveling, but I do wonder, considering all of that, what's the pitch for visiting places like the middle East or Africa? You know, I mean, I'll just say out of hand I would not go to Uganda today.

Maartje: 27:44

Yeah, and I do want. Yeah, I do also want to say, because sometimes when I say like I don't prefer, like it's not, like I cannot make anyone else do anything, you know, like everyone has the right to make their own, make up their own mind, you know, their own decision based on, you know, safety, because also, like, how I move through the world, it's very different from someone else and like I cannot decide for someone like, oh, you should definitely go travel to this place where, oh, you will most likely be feel unsafe, like no, of course not. Like, definitely do what feels good to you. But for me, I like to lead with the curiosity and I know, also, because of a lot of my privileges, you know I can move through places relatively safe, like as we mentioned before. I do also want to say again, like there's no place in the world that doesn't have a queer community and if it's not very visible, like there's definitely an underground one, and I do think it's very good to realize that. Also, if people do go out and, you know, get to meet them, you know there's also, you can also generate change, you know.

Maartje: 28:43

Or if you get to find out, like because I know a lot of people want to boycott countries because they don't want to support, like, the government financially.

Maartje: 28:50

I have to say like, especially in the beginning of my travels, I did a lot of couch surfing, a lot of hitchhiking, so like I was not spending a lot of money towards any government. Also, I think there's always ways to find queer owned businesses and I love putting my money towards queer owned businesses, you know. So I think there's also a lot of good that you can do if you're being mindful about it, if you want to do that, but obviously you don't have to do that and in, in that sense, I do think, like some ranking or, like you know, websites like Equaldex, like reflects the legislation of a country and also taking account, like, more of the public opinion, I do think it is helpful, you know, to base, like to see what you would feel comfortable with. But, yeah, also keep in mind that some of those things like there are for very specific groups of people and they not, you know.

Shawn: 29:40

And I think it's also worth questioning what it is that makes you feel safe, or why you feel safe.

Maartje: 29:46

Exactly, and I think it's also good to like reach out to other travelers who are similar to you, who have been to those places, and to kind of, you know, hear their experience. Because again, that's also you know, the whole visibility thing where also you can help people with your experience in those places. And it doesn't mean that you're going to have the same experience, because you know even people will look alike or you know, even if you just go at a different time, we'll have a very different experience. But you know, hearing other people's experience will also help you make a better judgment. Would this be a place where I would want to go to? Because I also have to mention the world is a very scary place. There's very scary people and there's scary legislation, but I do have to say every time I travel, there's also so many kind and warm and loving people.

Maartje: 30:33

I think there's a lot of places, especially with anti-LGBT legislation, they have an idea of a group of people that they don't know and I think usually when you get to know people and you see them for people, a lot of the bias also hopefully goes away if they're like good and kind people in their heart. So in that sense, I think sometimes I believe you can change a little bit just by meeting different people. You can change a little bit just by meeting different people and you know, and it goes both ways, because we may also have, like some prejudice towards like from a certain place, but like maybe probably because we don't know anyone from there. So I just believe in building bridges.

Shawn: 31:10

I don't know if that's clear but Well so so in the pride Atlas you actually do kind of carve up the world and have suggestions of you know, places to travel and things to do, and so this conversation is making me wonder. It's probably pretty easy, if not even overwhelming, in the western world to identify places to travel and things to do there, right?

Maartje: 31:31

yeah, I've also already gotten like a point of feedback that like, especially in the us, it's very coast centered, but it was. It was indeed very overwhelming and like it's I mean I don't even like choosing, but you know that and that was a very valid point like there was definitely we could have included more in the midwest or, like you know, in the center yeah, it makes me wonder what's the criteria?

Shawn: 31:55

you know, how did you think about things to do in places that the Western world might feel are more oppressive or uncomfortable? So I'm thinking, like the Middle East, certain places in Africa, certain parts of Asia. How did you approach identifying things to do for queer folks or places to visit for queer folks in those parts of the world?

Maartje: 32:15

Yeah, so we did let legislation, legislation, legislation definitely did get involved because we did want to. There's definitely reality in this book, but, like this, I also wanted to show people, you know, how beautiful the world can be. So it's definitely so. We have made the hard decision to leave a lot of places out because we don't want to make a recommendation where there's, like, law-wise, definitely a big risk of, you know, punishments. And in other places I've either visited or, like some of my other contributors have, like visited or even lived in those places connected with local queer people.

Maartje: 32:57

There's definitely a lot of things you can already find if you deep dive into the internet. Yeah, it's interesting. I think, like when you're queer and you want to look for places at some point, we just have a way of going very deep into, like down a rabbit hole or something like, sometimes even on Google Maps or like using instagram hashtags. I feel like there's I don't know if I'm the only, but I I feel like a lot of us are very resourceful in the community of finding very niche things. Or you know facebook groups, you know where you can see recommendations or like meetups, or, yeah, there's a lot of ways to find it, but I definitely see that not for everyone. It's, you know, that easy, or they even know what kind of terms to look for. So that's also why I wanted to kind of bundle it in a book, and obviously it's not a complete thing, but it's a start.

Shawn: 33:49

And one of the things that I've noticed that I'll consider, because you mentioned legislation legislation that maybe outlaws behavior but doesn't outlaw existence. Yeah, If that makes sense to you. So I can get away with not holding my husband's hand for two weeks, right, yeah, but I don't know that I'm going to consider visiting a place where, if I step off the plane, they're like you're gay, you're going to jail.

Maartje: 34:10

Yeah no exactly. Or if, yeah, where it's like they won't let you like share a room or something, or yeah, no, definitely, yeah, I think. I think that's also the tricky thing with legislation it's not always enforced, but I do think, you know, it is especially for a resource like this book, even though I could, would consider going to places where it's forbidden to be queer or gay, because also that's like, often laws are for gay men and it's not always the case for queer women and it really depends for trans folks, which is also like a whole different category. But I do think it's such a tricky topic. I also I don't know if there's like an answer, or you know, or if there's even a right or wrong like it's.

Shawn: 34:54

It's so nuanced yeah, and nuanced in so many facets. Right the location yeah the year, the time of year, the type of traveler, etc oh my god, yeah, it just goes on and on, yeah because traveling as a gay person doesn't really register, as I don't register as being gay if I'm traveling alone. So that's a very different.

Maartje: 35:14

But then for some, yeah, but I guess for some people, like, it also depends how you present you know, right right how it's your gender expression. Like you know, yeah, some people may get away because they don't look gay or whatever, as if that's a thing. But like, I guess there are some kind of criteria, some in some countries there have been lists published like how to recognize a gay, and you know there will be gays and probably also straights. You know who fit into the category. Yeah, that could really put you in danger, of course, and like it depends on what your purpose of your travel is.

Shawn: 35:44

But of course, if you're going on your honeymoon, you don't want to, like, try to blend in and, you know, deny a part of yourself just so you can go there are there any places that come to mind that you were relative to your personal travel, that you were reticent or suspicious about, and ended up were surprised, pleasantly surprised at the experience that you had?

Maartje: 36:07

Yeah, I think I went to Taiwan in, I think, 2018. And at that time I had not heard so much about Taiwan. I had not heard so much about Taiwan. It's just probably also like just the circles that I was in or something, but like, especially like LGBT wise, I had no idea like what it would be like. So, but I went there because I wanted to see like a lantern festival and then as soon as I got there, already in Taipei, the capital, I saw like queer couples holding hands, even showing PDA, which was already was already like whoa, like that is not so common in a lot of parts of Asia, that just to see straight people do that, so like seeing queer people do that.

Maartje: 36:47

I was just kind of like what is this place? And then, like, shortly after my visit, or like you know, one year or something after my visit, like Taiwan was the first country to legalize equalitarian marriage, um, which was kind of like, oh my god, like it's like that was just first country to legalize equalitarian marriage, which was kind of like oh my God, like it's like that was just so cool. To having no idea and kind of being like, ooh, we'll see. Then to being super surprised like holy shit, this is awesome.

Shawn: 37:12

I had the same experience. In retrospect. I guess I was just naive. But when I first started traveling Latin America and so I'm thinking of like Mexico, panama and Colombia for some reason I expected it not necessarily to be oppressive, but just not visible. And I was amazed at the number of queer couples I saw holding hands. The amount of men I saw with their nails painted yeah, way more so than I ever see in Seattle, yeah, and it just really struck me. And the amount of PDA that I saw between queer couples in.

Maartje: 37:47

Latin America. Yeah, I think in general, yeah.

Shawn: 37:49

Yeah, it was coming from the United States. It just reinforced for me this idea of like how embedded in us American exceptionalism is that we're one of the greatest countries, we're one of the most progressive countries and, traveling to Latin America, I was really surprised at how much more progressive on this issue they felt just in daily life than I felt in the United States.

Maartje: 38:11

Yeah, I think it's also.

Maartje: 38:13

I think that's a beautiful thing about travel too, like how much you're you're checking your own biases and you know, like also just cultural things and also things that, yeah, for example, when I traveled to Russia with rocks, like we saw a lot of girls holding hands, you know, and it was just so much more of a culturally accepted thing, and then we were like I guess we can do that because I guess that's okay for, like you know, friends, um, but there's just so many things that we learn.

Maartje: 38:40

You know, this is connected to certain sexuality or to a certain gender, but they may be totally, completely different in other countries. And, yeah, especially, like you know, showing affection, that's very so much like throughout the whole world, like also for straight couples, if you know if that's common or not, and I think that's really awesome. I also remember being in mexico, in guadalajara, which I joked, you know, like oh, it's gay to the hara, because I also remember so many parks where, like, a lot of couples, like all sorts of couples like we're just making out, and also queer couples, and I was like that's so cool yeah it felt, yeah, it felt really.

Maartje: 39:18

And I was also a little like oh, I'm just I don't feel like it's that common in the Netherlands for just people to make out on the streets, so that was also all the thing I was like. I don't know if I need to see that like from other people necessarily, but you know, like it's kind of cool.

Shawn: 39:35

I was like tone it down a bit.

Maartje: 39:38

Yeah, I was like tone it down a bit. Yeah, I'm like well, queer people, yes, but like straight, wait, not so much in my face, please.

Shawn: 39:44

Yeah, please, yeah, a little less yeah. And then, once you see it, then you start seeing it everywhere.

Maartje: 39:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn: 39:52

Hey, where did you go in Russia? So my husband is actually Russian, oh, and was lucky enough to go just before the shit hit the fan. Uh, when did we go? 2016, uh we went to moscow and saint petersburg yeah, I went in 2017.

Maartje: 40:08

That's actually where I started the whole world trip, um, to the great fear of my parents, but I was like anywhere from there, you know they'll feel comfortable that I'm struggling. But, um, yeah, we did the transmogolia railway, uh so, yeah, uh so from moscow, a bunch of stops, like we saw lake baikal and then went into mongolia and then into china. Yeah, there was a whole thing. But like, really cool experience. I mean, obviously, like now it's would not recommend going I know I'm glad I went when I did.

Shawn: 40:42

I want to talk a little bit about the united states and get your perspective, because you don't live in the united states and I'm always interested in the dynamic between people that are living in a place and and the way that they're experiencing something and then how that's kind of playing to outsiders and we've been talking about how we, as outsiders, ingest information about countries that we then travel to and sometimes are right and sometimes are wrong right.

Maartje: 41:05

Yeah.

Shawn: 41:05

I'm interested in getting your perspective, you know, given how embedded you are in travel and travel, writing and photography. So, those of us living in the United States, we're constantly being bombarded. In the last few years with a huge rise in anti-queer specifically anti-trans legislation, primarily in Southern states, but it's not limited to that and you know a lot of the states. You mentioned coastal states, which are typically more progressive. But the United States figures pretty heavily in the Pride Atlas and I'm wondering if you would consider the states a little different if you were piecing this book together today. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maartje: 41:47

Yeah, I think it's very complicated because I do feel like there's a shift globally going on, like I also see it in the Netherlands, where we are the first country, you know, to legalize equalitarian marriage, you know, and now we're definitely moving backward. It feels like, or I just feel like we felt like we're there, we did it and then we just stopped having the talks. Yeah, I think I hope it's just like kind of an ups and downs situation that we just need to go through and then we'll. But yeah, I am pretty scared about like the polarization that happens, especially between left and rights, and the things like human rights are just up for discussion again. Also thinking about like abortion, like wait, that's what can go back on that that's just not how it should be. Yeah, and also LGBT rights. You know the fight is not over and I don't know if in my lifetime I get to see it to be resolved or anything and what that would even look like. But I do feel I am a very optimistic person, like you know, sometimes a little toxic, but like I do believe change can happen and it will happen. I am a very optimistic person, sometimes a little toxic, possibly, but I do believe change can happen and it will happen. I do believe that, even though it's hard, because I feel like this is definitely it feels like a right and wrong. Right, it's human rights. People should have rights and that should not be a discussion, but there's still, I feel like there's a need to build bridges, to even see like, to have discussions and not just say like we're right on this and like I don't know what that would look like. But I do feel like if we just understand each other better and see because there's a lot of hurts, a lot of trauma that gets in the way which also makes us, you know, behave in certain ways that aren't always the most effective and I don't even know how to get there and it's so complicated, but somehow I do believe I do also see a whole generation that's doing a lot of inner work and learning to do better. So I do believe that there's hope and there's a way where we get to I don't know we don't even need to be on the same page but where we can really respect one another and live alongside each other. Because I guess that's the whole misconception, as if and that comes again from the whole hierarchy and colonization as if one person has something, it means someone cannot have it. It's a whole scarcity thing, but I do believe we all deserve human rights and it doesn't take away from someone else's rights, but how we get there?

Shawn: 44:26

So when I was starting Deep Dive, I was thinking what a to some degree a vanity project.

Shawn: 44:31

When I was starting Deep Dive, you know, I was thinking like what a to some degree a vanity project. I'm at a point in my life where I can do this and just kind of pursue things that I'm interested in and have interesting conversations with people on topics that are interesting to me, right, and then last year I made a concerted effort, given what's happening globally but, you know, particularly in the United States when it comes to anti-queer legislation and rhetoric and increase in violence against the queer community I made a concerted effort to lean into more queer-related content on Deep Dive and stopped thinking about Deep Dive as being something that is just an interesting project and started thinking that perhaps it could have some type of meaning or be a resource in some way. And the reason I'm telling you this is because I wonder, given the work that you do with your photography, your writing, if this has in any way changed the way you approach the work that you do or the way that you conceptualize why you do it or how you do it.

Maartje: 45:21

Oh, absolutely. I have to say, like before I started traveling, like I wasn't even that connected to my queerness, which is kind of like an hindsight. I just I had known people who were kind of like, even before saying their name they would say I'm queer, you know, and I was like how is that that big of your identity? But now I get it, like because of travel, because meeting other people, like because realizing how freaking privileged I am and was and have been, and then also learning you know that I want more people to have rights and the opportunity to be themselves, and like it just has yeah, it just has added on. Like also with my photography, I do photo shoots and weddings, mostly for queer people, like because I first I was like really on a larger scale, but I'm also realizing, like more and more how also important it is to do it on like a small scale. You know, like that it's really about the people, and just like the small thing of, well, I mean, it's a big thing, like if people have a wedding, that's a big thing. But like just being a queer photographer and knowing that I have the understanding, like what it's like to be part of a queer couple, you know for them to not having to worry or be afraid like, oh, maybe there will be an inappropriate comment or kind of like, oh, who's the man or woman in the relationship? You know, can you do a lift, or whatever.

Maartje: 46:37

You know, like knowing that, on that very small scale, like there's a way to create a safe space to let people fully be themselves, that's the most beautiful thing. And I think, yeah, I just, I just feel like everyone deserves to be completely themselves and I do believe that there is places where people can, you know there's fertile soil and there's, you know, places where it's less easy to be yourself. But so that's also still why, you know, with queer travel, I feel like, if I get to find the places where people get to, you know, have a better experience, you know, like I want them to know about it because I feel they deserve it. Like I truly think travel is for everyone. Of all this intersectionality, regardless of your budget, I do believe it is for everyone. And like I just really want people to see, like, what beauty there can be.

Shawn: 47:29

Well, so on that note, what are some of your favorite places to travel, or some of the favorite places you've been?

Maartje: 47:34

Yeah, so you mentioned also, like Mexico, mexico is a place where I would always go back to. It's also a huge place, you know, so there's also a lot you can explore and see. I also always enjoy going to Thailand, but I do have to say, like you know, legislation-wise Thailand is definitely popular amongst queer travelers. I know for the local queer community it is harder, especially for, like, trans people it's equal marriage yet, but they are on the way. They did pass something that would make that happen, which would make it, I think, the second country in Asia and only the first in Southeast Asia. So I do believe that's progress and some nice kind of lights in times of darkness. So I would say, yeah, those are definitely the two like on top of mind that you know I would always return to.

Shawn: 48:34

I don't want to besmirch any places, but like, is there any place where you had high hopes and you were kind of like I'm glad I went, but wouldn't go back?

Maartje: 48:42

I think sometimes I think my expectations were a little too high or just different. I do remember going to San Francisco and just being like you know, knowing all of the history and you know the gay district and like you know this is gonna be it, and it just didn't completely feel like it for me. I was just I think I was just like way too high hopes and like then it was just the reality of it was just, yeah, gay men and like commercialized, and yeah, I was just not completely what I had hoped, I guess, to find.

Shawn: 49:23

Yeah, you know, what I think will crack this code when it comes to travel is I think that the moment in time is what makes that place feel the way it maybe does, and if you're not there in that moment, some places just can't capture it and maintain it.

Maartje: 49:42

And I think San.

Shawn: 49:42

Francisco is the same. For me it was so pivotal and it had such a vibrant queer community at a critical time in the United States that I was hoping to kind of immerse myself in that in San Francisco and feel that and I just didn't.

Maartje: 49:57

Yeah, I think yeah, that's also along the lines of you know gentrification and everything and you know all the gay recruits and like, and then even the queer community being pushed out again because you know it gets too expensive. It's just, oh, it's so, it's so tricky and it is very true. You know it is very pivotal moments in time, but yeah, that's always changing and that's also kind of cool. You know that things are ever changing, but yeah.

Shawn: 50:21

Okay, final question. You ready for it?

Maartje: 50:23

Yeah.

Shawn: 50:25

What's something interesting you've been reading, watching, listening to or doing lately.

Maartje: 50:31

It doesn't have to be related to this topic, but it can be. Well, I've definitely been tapping into like a lot of you know, healing. I went through a breakup last year and like it just I feel like I'm getting a bit more woohoo, but I'm definitely in my Saturn return and just life just feels very upside down and I've just been very confronted with a lot of like paradigm shifts, I guess, and I guess, as part of that, I've recently been very interested in like learning more about, like psychedelics. I've been watching a lot of Netflix shows about the side of super silence. I'm still in, yeah, so I think that's just been something.

Maartje: 51:09

Yeah, I guess, like I got diagnosed with ADHD two years ago and like ever since I'm, I've been very aware of like where my hyper focus is. So, like right now, that's kind of my hyper focus and that's kind of like a lot of things that I'm learning about and like. Yeah, I guess like this, yeah, learning a lot more about myself, but also like how much we can change our minds. You know it's also related to like mindfulness and yeah, so I guess it's kind of different, although I mean there's also definitely a lot of like mind expanding trips you could make, for example, to like South America to do Ayahuasca or something Exactly. So, who knows, maybe that's next on the blog.

Shawn: 51:49

But you, you're in a good place for that though, right Like, don't you have legalized? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maartje: 51:53

Yeah, actually I'd never really done it Like cause I guess also because here like weed and mushrooms like it's well, I guess now it's technically truffles, cause I think mushrooms are like illegal, but yeah, it's just so common. But I've also been always very scared of like the hallucinatory things. I'm like I already have a rich imagination and I was scared of it.

Shawn: 52:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah enhances my mood.

Maartje: 52:16

I'm like I'm gonna freak out, I'm gonna go bad, but I guess now I'm really. I'm really in a place where I'm kind of like, you know, I'm very open and welcoming different experiences, and I also learned about microdosing and how that's a good way, like as an alternative for like antidepressants or like adhd medication. I was like I kind of went off my adhd meds because I was like I don't need them anymore. But then sometimes I'm like I don't know. So, yeah, that's been an interesting journey and like, yeah, it's very easy to access here, so I'm in a great place for that and I think it's a new frontier.

Shawn: 52:47

I think even medicine, like the medical field, is starting to really kind of invest in the impact that this has and how this can be used.

Maartje: 52:54

Yeah, so yeah, and there's definitely also a lot of more like. There's a lot more places where it's also getting like legalized again, because it used to be legal also in the states, yeah, and but also like as forms of therapy. You know where it's, you know a guided experience you know with. Yeah, I think that's just really a beautiful thing and like very fascinating, very interesting to learn about yeah, our friends were like that, live there.

Shawn: 53:19

They were like, well, we could, we could do that, and but I was also like, uh, I don't know what's gonna happen to me when I do it.

Maartje: 53:26

I don't want to ruin a friendship or something oh my god, yeah, you never. You never know what's going to come up, yeah. Like the next day, like I'm so sorry, I ruined your house, yeah no, but I don't know, who knows, maybe at a time in the future where you feel like ready for it Cause, yeah, I do feel like I'm glad I didn't do it yeah, yeah.

Shawn: 53:49

M, thanks for being here. I enjoyed the conversation and I hope you keep doing this, because I keep coming back to your work and I love it.

Maartje: 53:56

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. This was pretty awesome.

Shawn: 54:05

The global queer travel scene is a complex and ever-evolving landscape. From the vibrant pride celebrations in major cities like Sydney and New York and Berlin to the hidden gems of queer culture in unexpected places like Guadalajara, mexico and Thailand, there are countless opportunities for queer travelers to explore, connect and find a sense of belonging around the world. When I travel as a queer person, safety is always a top priority and consideration for me and from that perspective, it's important to research local laws and attitudes and take precautions around visibility and public displays of affection. We need to prioritize our well-being and have contingency plans in place. Connecting with other queer travelers, whether through online communities or in-person meetups, can provide invaluable support and resources and safety nets for us. However, it's also crucial to approach queer travel with mindfulness and respect and a commitment to ethical engagement with local communities.

Shawn: 55:06

As Marta emphasized throughout our conversation, the legacies of colonialism and ongoing disparities in power and privilege shape the experiences of queer people in different parts of the world. Queer travelers, especially those of us with relative privilege, have a responsibility to educate ourselves about the cultural, legal and social contexts of the places we visit. This means doing thorough research, connecting with local queer organizations and activists and being open to learning from the lived experiences of queer people on the ground. It also means being conscious of how our actions as travelers can impact local communities and striving to support queer-owned businesses, respect local customs and norms and amplify the voices and work of local queer activists. Ultimately, queer travel has the potential to be a profound source of joy and growth and solidarity, and by approaching it with intentionality, humility and a commitment to uplifting local queer communities, we can help build a world where queer people can cross borders and engage cultures as ambassadors, freely, authentically and without fear. All right, check back soon for another episode of Deep Dive Chat. Soon, folks, you.