Welcome to City & Guilds’ Youth Misspent podcast series, a monthly podcast in which we dive into some of the issues raised in our research report of the same name
The research found that the odds are being stacked against young people’s futures and career aspirations – particularly the most disadvantaged. So in this series, we want to showcase the work that various industries are doing to integrate young people into their workforces and explore how we might resolve the multiple barriers young people face when trying to enter the workforce.
Hosted by Andy Moss, Managing Director of City & Guilds. this episode takes a closer look at the energy sector, which is experiencing rapid, large-scale change. With the government having committed to ambitious targets to reduce carbon emissions in the energy sector by 2035 this will mean a major shift away from the use of fossil fuels. This change will undoubtedly bring new challenges for the energy sector, but it will also create an abundance of opportunities for people old and young to upskill and reskill in low carbon skills.
In this episode David is joined by:
For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:
Welcome to City & Guilds’ Youth Misspent podcast series, a monthly podcast in which we dive into some of the issues raised in our research report of the same name
The research found that the odds are being stacked against young people’s futures and career aspirations – particularly the most disadvantaged. So in this series, we want to showcase the work that various industries are doing to integrate young people into their workforces and explore how we might resolve the multiple barriers young people face when trying to enter the workforce.
Hosted by Andy Moss, Managing Director of City & Guilds. this episode takes a closer look at the energy sector, which is experiencing rapid, large-scale change. With the government having committed to ambitious targets to reduce carbon emissions in the energy sector by 2035 this will mean a major shift away from the use of fossil fuels. This change will undoubtedly bring new challenges for the energy sector, but it will also create an abundance of opportunities for people old and young to upskill and reskill in low carbon skills.
In this episode David is joined by:
For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:
Mark Wilkins 0:00
We don't tell people early enough in schools about the career opportunities that are open to them, and how they can move into those industries and what exciting opportunities there there are in those industries.
Andy Moss 0:27
Hello, and welcome to this latest podcast from City & Guilds. Today is the latest in a series of podcasts exploring our recent Youth Misspent research, which looked in detail at the experiences of young people as they navigate the education system and look to enter the world of work. Each month, we're looking at the issues identified in that research through the lens of a particular industry. And today, our spotlight is firmly on the energy sector. My name is Andy moss. I'm one of the two managing directors here at City & Guilds. And it's my absolute pleasure to be your host here today.
As I say, today, we'll be discussing all things energy, a hugely vibrant sector that we know is experiencing rapid, large scale change. As economies around the world start to wean themselves off fossil fuels and drive to a more sustainable, cleaner future. Something that's so important for all of us listening here today, these major shifts will undoubtedly lead to challenges. But they're also creating fantastic opportunities for people young and old, actually, when it comes to securing well paid sustainable and accessible careers. But despite these opportunities, the energy sector continues to struggle with massive skill shortages. And with certain groups of young people particularly hesitant to enter this part of our economy. Putting this together, it means there is an urgent need to highlight the fantastic opportunities energy can offer to people from all walks of life. And that's why I'm so delighted to be joined today by our panel of distinguished guests to discuss the future of the energy sector, and what steps individuals, employers, government and educators can take to attract a growing and diverse group of young people into the sector. So now if I could start by asking our guests for today's podcasts, please just take a moment to introduce themselves. So great, why don't I come to you first?
Grace McCrickard 2:20
Hi, Andy. So first, thank you for having me on this. I'm really excited about it. So my name is Grace McCrickard, and I work for Jeff nuclear. I am currently the senior Electrical Technician there and in a nutshell, I am an electrical engineer who builds control panels, and it's mainly to control robotics that clean up nuclear waste.
Andy Moss 2:41
Fantastic. Welcome, Grace. Thanks for being here. Mark, can I come to you next, Mike Wilkins?
Mark Wilkins 2:45
Yeah, thank you, Andy, i'm Mark Wilkins, Technology and Training Director with Vaillant Group, in the UK and Ireland. Vaillant are a manufacturer of heat pumps and low carbon heating solutions are a manufacturer as well as fossil fuel, natural gas and LPG boilers, and are actively developing hydrogen heating solutions for the home use. I cover a range of parts of the business including product management and looking at the portfolio, sustainability and environmental topics. And probably most relevant for today's discussion, operational management of our customer technical training at delivery team. I've been in the industry for 40 years this month, I started as an apprentice service engineer with British Gas. So I've come up through the apprentice route, and really have had a great career from there.
Andy Moss 3:31
Thanks, Mark. Thanks for being here. And then David, could I come to you? Thanks, David.
David Nash 3:35
I'm David Nash. I am Director of Strategy and Policy at the ECITB. That's the Engineering Construction Industry Training Board. We are an arm's length government body, a non departmental public body sponsored by the Department for Education. We have a remit in England, Scotland and Wales to deliver skills and training solutions for the engineering construction industry. And, and by that I mean, companies working in the supply chain of, of process engineering, so, so critical national infrastructure, and those companies span everything from everything in the energy sector, from upstream oil and gas, nuclear renewables, right through to other big industry sectors like waste, steel and cement. And delighted to be here today.
Andy Moss 4:27
Fantastic. Well, David, Mark, Grace, huge thanks. And I think just through those introductions, we get a sense of the great range of experience that we have represented on our panel here today, and also the amazing wealth of opportunities and careers that this, this sector really does offer fantastic career prospects. And yet, as I said in the introduction and an area I'd like to just start with, we do seem to have this quite stark mismatch between these great opportunities that the sector offers and yet quite significant skill shortages and particularly its ability to attract others versus young sets of entrants into the sector.
So if you don't mind, I'm gonna start there by just asking each of my guests to say a few words about how they and their organisations are really working to develop the skills that the sector really needs. So Mark, if you don't mind, I'm going to come to you first and be great to hear a bit about the work that you're doing at Valliant group to really attract and train the workforce of the future.
Mark Wilkins 5:33
Yeah, Andy, let me start probably by explaining a little bit of context. Yes, we have a workforce we have sales and marketing organisation in the UK, we have surface backup and support for the products. And we have a factory in delta which produces the the boilers and the heat pumps. So there is a direct workforce. But we work also in a three tier supply chain approach to towards the end user, customer householder. And in that instance, we work with the builders merchant network, we work with the installers. And we support the customers to get the product from the factory into their homes. In terms of our own direct labour force, we have a range of apprenticeships that that we offer, across the business, whether that's from sort of the the management apprenticeship levels five and onward, or whether it's the the new entrant coming into the business as a sort of service engineers or or technicians. So there's a range of training options. In terms of our customers, we've we've also put always put massive emphasis on training the installation partner, that's the person that does the design, or the installation of the system into the customer's house. Now, our ethos has always been to ensure that they are familiar with the product, and how it interacts with the home. So there's a huge amount of training that goes into into that side, that's really training of existing workers. And in that instance, we've got six training centres and a network of college partners around the country that we work with. We also support the students. So that's, that's the new entrants into the industry coming up through college, on their level two, level three plumbing and heating or low carbon apprenticeship courses. And that's having having the network of colleges with equipment in having a network of colleges where we've worked to support the lecture, to effectively train the trainer that really helps support the student in their learning, their development, their learning with, with modern new equipment, and they are working with them with your state of the art training methods in their their colleges, as well as in our centres.
Andy Moss 7:44
Well, that's really interesting, actually. And as you say that, that spans and the range of voices, entry level opportunities, but also right the way through to perhaps somebody will look into upskill and rescale into the sector. As you do that. I mean, maybe I'll bring David in in a moment. But just I'm interested in how quickly you feel the training providers themselves, whether yourselves or the door, the partners you work with are adapting because obviously this is an era of rapid change, actually, as we think about decarbonisation, are you seeing the courses adapt at a pace that you think is really helping to bring in those skills that we need for the future.
Mark Wilkins 8:17
And I think in the in the college sector, it has traditionally been Plumbing and Heating, with a bolt on module with with environmental engineering for the sort of the heat pump side of things. That's fairly well established. It's been running for for a number of years. There is a review ongoing, on that, I believe ifI are working on that at the moment, the the Institute for apprenticeships and technical engineering, technical education, so that that review is sort of a fairly regular process that they would go through, there is a new low carbon heating technician apprenticeship, which is I'm told very, very close to being launched. And that for us in our industry is quite exciting, because it really does focus on the on the low carbon technology. I think we're about to to see how quickly the college network will adapt because the the apprenticeship scheme will be released shortly. And we're hoping that that can be implemented in the first cohorts coming through from the autumn of this year. So we are working with a few colleges where we're we're close to to pressing the Go button. But that there is definitely an appetite for change. And that appetite for changes is sort of ramping up very, very quickly.
Andy Moss 9:30
Great. Thanks, Mark. Really interesting. And I'm sure themes that we'll come back to as we go through this conversation. David, I'd love to bring you in. Now, obviously ecitb, as you said in your introductory remarks, you know, obviously very kind of active and championing the sector. So really great to get your perspective on how you've seen the sector support the skills needs off and bringing those skills needs into the sector. Yeah, I
David Nash 9:53
think, Andy, lots of companies and training providers that we work with, really see The really positive opportunities on the horizon in terms of many of our companies are already involved in decarbonisation projects. And obviously, that spans a wide range of sectors. But you know, we have companies actively engaged for instance, in, you know, Hinkley Point C at the moment delivering, delivering that that that mega project that is, is in the phase of work now, where we need lots more engineers. And as you said earlier, in your opening remarks, how we, how we marry the the opportunities in the sector with the persistent skill shortages isn't it is an issue that, you know, keeps us all up at night. And we need to think creatively about how we solve that problem. But I think there's definitely an appetite amongst companies to get more and more into into this field, including companies actually, you've conventionally worked in, shall we say, you know, fossil industries. The diversification of their portfolios, away from just conventional oil and gas, for instance, into renewables is something that we're seeing a lot of now. And I think, obviously, that reflects market opportunities. But it also reflects the appetite of the people, particularly young people, but not solely young people that they're trying to recruit in that, you know, they know that increasingly, many young people are looking for a career opportunity in in, in in those sectors in a way that they can support, you know, the climate change mission, and decarbonisation, and as well as a key as a key recruiting tool. I mean, it seems of what what we're doing, Andy, as a training board, in training and developing the existing workforce is our USP. So we invest around 25 million pound each year of funding in direct grants to employers, so that they can train their workforce. And increasingly, we're seeing a lot of that in net zero related skills training. But equally a key part of what we do, too, is bringing in the next generation. So we've we're running several programmes at the moment, including a scholarship programme, which is designed to bring in learners who may not want to go through to traditional entrant routes into our industry, so that they can then progress on to a fast track apprenticeship, or, or straight into another form of employment and grow those types of pipelines. Because the one thing we know very clearly is the bow wave of big projects on the horizon. As you said earlier, we've got the skill shortage is not going to go away anytime soon. And it's probably not going to get any better anytime soon. So you know, we've got a really turbocharge our efforts to bring more and more people in through the system. And we see that as a key part of the CIT B's role.
Andy Moss 12:40
Right. Thanks, David, really interesting. And I know we'll come back to a number of those themes. Grace giver come to you as somebody who's, I guess it's fair to say relatively new in training into the sector, great to get your experience of how it's been like going through training, whether you feel equipped with the skills that you need, as you really think about developing and growing your career.
Grace McCrickard 12:59
And yes, so I have been in this industry now for six years. So I started the job when I was 17. And when leaving school, I didn't really have much of knowledge on kind of gone carbon zero and carbon footprint and stuff like that it didn't, I feel like it's not something you get taught a lot in school. But as I started my career, and especially with the industry that we are in because we are working towards net carbon zero, so it became kind of really important to us. And it was an eye opener for me, especially on the college side of things. Especially when I was going towards my HNC hnd, mainly my hnd as the highest level go, I really feel like it does get kind of drilled into you. And it does become this eye opener of what can happen if we aren't kind of minimalizing these wastes and things like that. So I gained a lot of my knowledge and my skills through the college side of things. But I think we've worked out of things because obviously we are working towards a net carbon by carbon zero by 2050. And we are decreasing that by 16% over the next five years. So that's in 2027, which is obviously going to bring our net zero debt forward, which is great. So that with projects that I am dealing with every single day, that gets drilled into us, what we are doing is we are building these projects, using like sustainable materials. And we are building things to what we need and kind of normal. So how it's going to work perfectly for us with the materials that we need obviously minimise the waste there and kind of use renewable materials for any jobs that it can be used in. And I feel like that kind of things is what's taught me and I've gained my skills from that. So I feel like in my role, because it's quite a hands on role and I'm building things every day. I've kind of gained the mindset now to think around things instead of being like, oh, let's do this and do this new way and buy these new things. It's kind of me and my apprentices and our team. Now we're thinking well how can we do this with seems we've got to kind of minimise the worst and thing. So I feel like that's where my my knowledge is coming from in that.
Andy Moss 15:05
That's fascinating. In many ways, one of the best ways to learn learn by application actually learn through through doing. That's fascinating. It's really interesting, actually. And we're definitely gonna come back to a couple of those areas. Later through the conversation, but really interested in opening conversation. Actually, I think we're touching on some great kind of food for thought, if you like, as we move into this conversation about how can we make sure that we're attracting as many people from as many diverse backgrounds as possible to come into this rich, the kind of vibrant sector?
I guess if you don't mind, I'm going to turn my attention to drill down into that question a bit more actually, something I mentioned in the introduction that we do know, and we have to be honest about this. We know that the energy sector has struggled in terms of diversity in the workforce. And certainly what we found through youth misspent research was that there was this very clear divide between men and women, actually. So I think around 40% of men said they would be interested in a career in the energy sector. But less than one in five women said the same actually. So just 17% of women saying that they were interested in the sector. And given that we know that that's already a trend that's in that kind of sector, if you like in terms of male female splits, I guess the key question is, how can we start to address this issue? And how can we start to create more diverse pathways? And so do you mind if I come to you first on this one? Because be great to get your perspective, as somebody coming into the energy industry, as a woman, and whether you faced any particular challenges? And whether you felt there any particular about barriers or challenges for you in that respect? And how you overcame those? Or how do you think we can overcome those if they do exist?
Grace McCrickard 16:45
Yes, so So firstly, when I left school at 16, I didn't really consider the nuclear industry. And the reason why I ended up going into was actually because my dad works in the nuclear industry. And I feel like this results down into how little we get taught about it in school. It's all about, I think you do some kind of tech certs and a little bit of engineering in school, but it does not teach you about the job opportunities that are out there. And the only reason why I wanted to become an electrical engineer was because of my brother. So the electrical sides from him and then the nuclear sides from my dad, and I was really close to my dad. So he was saying to me, our whole grid, his job was and stuff. And that's why I decided but other than that, there was no real push for, for me to go in. And then it was only obviously, once I joined the industry, how how little you know, there is women in there. And I've been in my company for six years now. And obviously, being part of the operations team and the recall stuff, I am still the only woman there in six years. And I do feel like it is changing. And it is a slow change. And it's something that we are we all are trying to work towards. And I've been doing kind of a lot of panel talks and stuff lately, but I actually host the work experience they when they come to Jeff nuclear, and it's been really nice, because I feel like in the past 12 months, there has been a lot more girls come. And I think it's really great. And there was there was a report back to us one time this this one girl came for work experience. And she said, she felt really comfortable because I was there. And I completely understand that because when I started it was it was all men. And it is now obviously I have adapted to that now, which is great, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it absolutely love it. But I would love to encourage women to join to join more. And I think we're doing that with the new the women in nuclear. So that's a committee. And Jeff and I are part of that. And we try to push that as far as we can do, to kind of say to children and young people who want to join the industry or anyone at all, who wants to join the industry, that's a woman that it is, it is normal, and it should be happening more and more. And I've been going to a lot of schools and colleges recently to tell them about the opportunities because I just think that that women don't really see the seed as a male don't industry. And that is how it is they don't understand that actually the same opportunities do apply for us. I do think one of the challenges starting out in this is you've kind of if you're a male going in the industry, you're expected to do everything, which is the same as everyone. But I think if you're a woman, especially me being on the hands on sector, it's quite a kind of place to be in and being such a small girl at that as well. I feel like you've got to gain the respect almost to prove that you can do the same as what a man can do. I mean, that was one of my challenges that I first face, but I personally think it only draws more motivation and it makes you work harder. So I don't mind it as much but yeah, that was definitely one of the challenges that I faced
Andy Moss 19:41
really fascinated go so to say I think school how we celebrate careers into schools and advise into schools. And then that power of positive role models actually you know, you were fantastic role model, do an amazing job then of championing because I think it's so important for young people to see, every background can succeed and as actors that's a brilliant actually is how you are Both shining a spotlight on those challenges, but also helping us break through them, which is brilliant. Mark, really interesting. I mean, is this something that you've been set value group as well? I mean, what's your perspective on this area? Yeah.
Mark Wilkins 20:11
So part of the industry needs needs a massive number of new entrants to support what is at the moment and ageing and largely male workforce. We need people coming into the industry, from all backgrounds, all genders, all orientations, all ethnicities, we have a very exciting opportunity at the moment in the industry, for those coming into it. And I think Grace is touched on one thing with, we don't tell people early enough in schools and possibly don't even tell people enough in schools, about the career opportunities that are open to them, and how they can move into those industries, and what exciting opportunities there there are in those industries, we have started reaching out to colleges, we've started reaching out and data to secondary schools as an organisation to really promote those those opportunities. And the career path that you that you have, there is a great career opportunity here in our part of the sector, are very well paid jobs, which have fantastic career opportunities. So it's something I would encourage any young person to think about as they go through their school career as they go into into college. And as I say, it's something we are actively promoting. In terms of diversity question, I think, as an industry, we've always struggled, it was alluded to earlier on, we have struggled to get get people into the industry from from different backgrounds, I really don't know the cause of that other than I think the industry or the part of the industry that we work in, largely associated to the plumbing and heating side, maybe there's a perception that it's a bit of a boring industry, it's not one of the more attractive industries, it's not one of the first two mind industries that people will think of, although, as I say, lots of great, exciting opportunities at the moment that really should overcome that stereotype.
Andy Moss 21:59
Really helpful. Mark, thank you. Maybe just join David, and you mentioned in the earlier part of the conversation about the work that ecitb is doing in this space, lots to learn a bit more about how you're thinking about this, how you can create different pathways in for people from all all forms of background. Yeah, and
David Nash 22:13
just going back to Grace's point, absolutely agree. And I'm aware of some of the work that grace is doing, through obviously, our links with the nuclear industry. And it's really inspiring, and we need more of it. And, you know, I was just gonna throw in a, you know, there's that famous quote from Marian Wright Edelman, who's an American children's rights activist, and she said, You can't be what you can't see. And this is absolutely vital. So getting more visible role models, people like Grace, out there talking to young people, in schools, in different community groups. Showing that, you know, there is a way into the industry, and you can thrive in these industries. And we need more of those people in visible positions, both at leadership level, but across across the across the different levels of the organisation to really, to really demonstrate to people that you can do this. I think it's your research is really interesting, Andy, and I think we're doing a bit of research at the moment, which we'll be publishing later in the year looking at the careers motivations, of people who have already join the industry, why they did it, how they got there. And also those that that, you know, for them, it's not on their radar at all. And I think it's really important to continually test that those assumptions that we have, and really build up that evidence base, in order to really, you know, drive forward solutions. It was really interesting what Grace said about, obviously, her way into the industry. And we see that, you know, the family links, you know, family members who've been in the industry, it's so common, and that's a really good thing. But we also need to demonstrate to people that actually, you might, you might not necessarily have a family member in the industry. But how you're going to get that information, how you're going to get that information and who you're going to get that information from, to actually advise you and how you might get into the industry if you're considering that. And that's where I think, you know, we've improved our careers, advice and guidance in certainly in England, in the, you know, in in recent years with the work of the careers and enterprise company, but I think we've got a lot more to do to really utilise careers advice and guidance and schools and tap into, you know, parents, parent networks, community groups, other sources of guidance for young people when it comes to thinking about their career opportunities, and really showcase the fascinating opportunities out there. And Mark's absolutely right. You know, his side of the industry has some really exciting opportunities, our side of the industry, the sort of challenge, the complex technological challenge of getting to net zero in the energy sector is one that you know, I think fascinates a lot of people and a lot of young people too, and really being clear on how they can get into the sector and communicate Now from a really young age, I think is vital. I think that's
Andy Moss 25:03
A brilliant call to action from all three of you actually, you know that power of positive role modelling that ability to create networks so that she's like people that might not have family in the industry can really start to understand that this is a pathway for them, I think, really important and something that we absolutely must do. As we as we look to drive forward, it's great to hear about some of the experiences and some of the work that's happening in that space. And it's how we can supercharge that I think, because we come through
then you might even pick up on, it's probably a linked theme actually put up something that I think you've all touched on. Actually, Mark certainly heard that in what you were just saying, for somebody like myself, who's not part of the energy sector. It feels like an incredibly exciting place to be I've got to be honest, as we think about how important for all of us sustainability is and I was reading a WorldSkills UK report recently where I think it was almost 60% of young people were saying they're absolutely inspired to pursue a career that what sustainability and a greener future because you know, matters deeply to them. And yet, we still seem to have this kind of maybe apparent sense, that's that it's not a place where you can have a really, really exciting career, and you can really take positive action and really drive through. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how we can do more of that is is enough happening in that space really, and, and how we can really start to celebrate the rich variety of careers that the sector operates. I don't know who'd like to go first on that, but just want to drill down into that a bit more.
David Nash 26:35
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. There's, there's so much going on already. I think one of one of the key selling points too, is we're not as an industry, we're not looking for, you know, just just certain occupations, we're after a whole skill set. We're not supposed to be I am personally in the business of trying to get more engineers into our industry from craft level, to technicians, and right, you know, right at the sort of the engineering spectrum to Chartered Engineer status, but, but actually, it's not just engineers, we need for, to delivering that zero in the energy system. Well, you know, increasingly, our energy systems going to be interconnected, it's going to be complex, we need problem solvers, both engineers and non engineers who can approach these problems with new ideas. And we need, we're going to need a lot more people skilled in some digital skills, a lot more data analysts using big data to really drive delivery of complex energy systems, right through the sort of project value chain. And so being able to communicate that doesn't matter really what what career opportunity, or what subjects, you know, you might want to take in school, as long as you're able to keep your options open. And energy sector opportunities definitely there for you. And so for me, it's it's about communicating that this isn't a sector for everyone, no matter what profession. But clearly, as I said, we want to see more engineers coming out.
Andy Moss 28:04
Absolutely brilliant. About grey, so great to get your perspective on this area as well. I do think we're doing enough, can we do more in celebrating the richness of the careers in the sector?
Mark Wilkins 28:12
I think we can definitely do more to celebrate that. And for me, I said the answer to the earlier question, I think we have to do more to drive the message at schools. Grace was absolutely right. And it hasn't changed in the time I've been in the industry, I really didn't know what I wanted to do when I was making the choices back in school. And I've got a 16 year old go through the same process at the moment that hasn't a clue what opportunities are out there. So driving those messages at school early on, explaining that sort of the career options, that's got to be something between education and industry. So we've got to go into into schools and I think industry often forget that education system isn't a standalone part of society. It's integrated into everything we do. And if we need skills, we need to talk with the education system, we need to promote the opportunities that that gives. So it's very much a two way thing. We also need to drive the message that university isn't necessarily the only answer for people there are great progressive careers out there that can come through the through the sort of vocational college route. Great, really great to hear Grace has come through the hnd route. Not necessarily going straight into a degree in in some subjects or another but that route into more the technician side of things. Absolutely. We need engineers. Yes, we do need people from uni, but equally we need technicians. We need people to do the work as well. And and that's a slightly different group. We've got tea levels, we've got other forms of vocational qualification. And it's it's really promoting the choices and David's just keeping the choices open. Absolutely.
Andy Moss 29:48
Of course, I think you were gonna come in there.
Grace McCrickard 29:51
Yes, I just want to say Mark, I absolutely agree. Just touch on the thing what you're saying about the university and things. When I've been doing a lot of like school visits and talks lately I've been kinda trying to say that because my, for example, my younger sister, she is so intelligent, she's so smart, and she's just turned 13 years old, you wouldn't think it might think she'd be about 16. But she and horses, she's so clever. So she just sees like university and qualifications. And I'm like, Yes, I absolutely agree. But the way that I've done it is I've, I've obviously left school, and I've went straight into education, and I've just done it in stages. So I'm starting my degree in September, but at the so in two years time, I'm going to have a full degree, but I have also are going to have seven to eight years experience behind me and you're getting them same qualifications, but also the apps, the knowledge and the skills I'm getting, obviously coming in at a role obviously been just a hands on craft and stuff. And now I'm up to like the senior technician role. And I've done all that, and I'm getting my degree at the same time. So I'm kind of trying to emphasise that on the young people nowadays, and Jeff, Jeff nuclear where I am currently. So we are starting to compound this is in the works, I need to get into nuclear type of campaign. And this is obviously gonna go out to schools and our supply chain members can input this, it's needed to drive aspiration and attract existing and future talent. And I do think we need to get more people in this sector, but also know that they can kind of get all that knowledge and all this experience and open so many doors and opportunities along the way, as well as getting the qualification
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