Bryony Kingsland
In our newest episode of the Navigating the UK Skills Challenges podcast, we're bringing you first hand insights from our Young Learner Advisory Team. They'll share their experiences of the education system and how prepared they felt to enter employment on leaving education. Get ready to hear their innovative suggestions for employers and educators alike.
So welcome to Kira and Rob, and thank you so much for joining us today. Also with us is Hilary Gwilliam, our employability skills expert. Employability skills are being discussed by employers, training providers, and even politicians. They are identified as a key challenge within the local skills improvement plans.
We aim to gain insight into the broader perspective of young people, giving indications of varying expectations across the multi generational workforce. So let's start off the conversation with a broad question. And I'm going to hand over to Eric.
Eric Oliver
Employers mention employability skills is a need in every LSIP report, but from a young person's standpoint, what is employability?
Rob Cotter
For me, employability and sort of employability skills is setting in young people up with necessarily skills to survive out in employment. It's about getting them ready to go out in sort of the big wide world of employment, which can be quite daunting.
Eric Oliver
Thank you, Rob. Off to you, Kira?
Kira Foster
I agree. But I also think it's like interviewing, applying for jobs, being able to secure a job, that kind of thing, because it's so different to how like our parents and grandparents navigated it now that I think kids need that external support.
Bryony Kingsland
Can I just pitch in there with a sort of wider question on this? When you left college or university, or you left your sort of learning and you started to apply for your first jobs, how ready employability skills?
Kira Foster
I'm going to say no, it felt very much like when I was in college that they wanted me to go to university.
We didn't really have a lot of employability lessons. And at university, we module, which was about professional skills. And it was just how to build a CV and a portfolio. And that was about it. It was nothing about like the world of work or how to apply for a job, where to look for jobs, that kind of thing.
So yeah.
Bryony Kingsland
Wow. And Rob, what about you?
Rob Cotter
For me personally, I definitely felt underprepared for going in full time employment. I also think it depends what course you studied. I think some courses can actually set you up. With good employment skills. And I think some courses don't put that much effort in because it's perhaps not in those course units that we have to deliver.
Hilary, have you've got any thoughts on this as an employability expert.
Hilary Gwilliam
Yeah, I think it's interesting to think about what we mean by employability. So I think it's always clear what. We understand technical skills to be, so if you want to go into a particular vocation, it's quite clear that we go into a learning environment to learn and practice and perfect some of those skills to need.
But we don't always think about what else we need. And that could be anything really from an attitude, value, a behavior, some attributes, and then some sort of more tangible employability skills as well. So I think there's a really big range of things we might need to And the technical skills, and we tend to lump them all together and call them employability skills.
But actually it's a set of different things that help us to transition from a learning environment, working environment. And we need to think carefully about, as Robert said, the sector that we're going into, they're all different.
Bryony Kingsland
Right Hilary, thanks.
Just broadening out on that even further actually, we talk about employability skills and obviously those sort of skills came up again and again in the local skills improvement plans, but as part of that employability skills need, what are the skills that came up again and again? What was interesting, and I think you've all picked up on that slightly here, was the expectation of employers versus young people when it came to communication skills, and the style of language used, for example.
Bryony Kingsland
What was your experience of this when you first started working, Kira?
Kira Foster
Yeah, there's always differences, and like, how I kind of found it was, Your tone matters quite a lot, obviously that's normal in every kind of conversation, but definitely in work. So if I'm working with a co worker who's younger, I'll have a different kind of language and terminology.
I'll even like sit back in my chair on a meeting or I'll be a bit more slouched, but when I'm talking to my boss and older workers, I'll, I tend to sit forward, I might even dress a different way. Like I've got quite a few tattoos. So if I'm. You know, talking or presenting to people that I know that are a little bit more formal.
I'll be, you know, wearing long sleeves or I would hide them. And even in our emails and our Slack messages, like we use emojis, we use different terminology than if I was talking to someone that I see in a more formal light.
Bryony Kingsland
Wow. So that flows across into your written communication as well as your spoken communication, dependent on the age of the person you're speaking to, or is it a level of seniority or is it an age thing, do you think?
Kira Foster
I think it generally just depends on the person. If they're, if they're in a position of authority, obviously I will be talking to them in a more formal manner. With clients and customers in that aspect as well, there's a completely different language that I use when I'm speaking to them, and I'm very, very careful with my words.
And then with my other colleagues, I'm still careful because obviously I don't want to say anything that could get me into trouble, but also I'm, I'm a lot less formal because I can relate to them a bit more. So do you think some of your communication, the way that you communicate, some of that comes from your use of social media as you were growing up?
Yeah.
Bryony Kingsland
Rob, what about you?
Rob Cotter
Communication wise, I think it all depends on the message you're trying to portray, and again, who you're speaking to. And I think the question that you had towards the end about social media, social media has got a lot to answer for in terms of how young people see communication, and how, perhaps, older people see communication.
And it is very different.
Bryony Kingsland
Yeah. That's really interesting.
Eric, is there any question you want to ask?
Eric Oliver
Yeah. Really well timed. I was in a meeting earlier with some organisations and we briefly went into employability skills and communication in particular, and one of their big comments was, it's not even necessarily on the communication style and how you speak to each other.
It's what they use to communicate. I like it. So one of them complained that often if they try and get in touch with one of their younger employees, they'll try to give them a phone call and they'll just flat out reject it and say like, send me a message instead. So it's that style of differences. So do you find there's a difference in preference in communication between young and older people?
Rob Cotter
Yes, personally, I quite like to talk to people. So for me, it's a phone call every day. And literally I'm relatively impatient at work. So if I sort of send an email, I'm then following it up with a phone call, going, I've just sent you an email. What'd you think about this? Can I have an answer with this? Part of my job's about getting quotations and that.
I'm not prepared to speak to a supplier to get a quote. However, some younger people I work with are scared to pick up the phone. They're scared to answer the phone. They will send an email and I'll go, have you traced this up with a phone call? I know, I've just sent them an email about an hour ago, I'll wait until I get a response.
It is as if they are scared to pick up the phone, and scared to communicate.
Kira Foster
I'd say like, for me, I'm not a massive fan of phone calls. I'm not scared of them, I will do it if I need to. But, I do prefer emails or messages purely because of the fact that, with my job, because I work in manufacturing as well, if a client asks me a question, If they ask me on the phone, I'm like, I might have to get back to you on that.
Whereas if it's on an email, I can quickly get all the information I need, put it all in that email and then that can be sent and then the conversation can like jump forward quite quickly. And another part of my job is cold calling. So I call a lot of buyers, I call a lot of, you know, producers, that kind of thing.
And that can be a bit daunting because you just start jumping on the phone and you're talking to a stranger. But yeah, the emails, it's just the preferred way at the moment. I think it just depends on the person.
Bryony Kingsland
Do you think that, you know, your college or university or school prepared you effectively for the different types and styles of communication you were going to have to use?
Kira Foster
English class, I remember had like an email writing or a letter writing class, but that was it basically. And that's, that's it really.
Bryony Kingsland
Rob?
Rob Cotter
No, I don't think I was well supported with different types of communication skills. Some students take functional skills. And I think that program is good for some communication skills.
There's a lot of that seems to be, write a letter to such and such to complain or write a letter to such and such to appraise them or write an email or stuff like that. So I think that's naturally getting them ready, but not everyone's taking functional skills English.
Bryony Kingsland
Yeah. Hilary, I know that you'll have something to say about that from the functional skills point of view, because there's obviously a difference between functional skills and those are the skills that we need to, to apply in the workplace and a sort of English that we might've learned during, say, a GCSE.
What's your views on that?
Hilary Gwilliam
Well, it's a bit like how we define employability skills. It's a big mixture of different skills sets that have to be adapted, I think, to the audience that you're working with. So it's a bit like you mentioned earlier, Kira, really. And, and so if you just break down, you know, reading, writing, listening, and speaking as four quite important skill areas, it's really about.
How you adapt those to the people you're working with, making sure you are able to articulate yourself clearly. And that might be using different modes of communication. So you may be a face to face person, or you may be an email person, or if you're working on teams and you just want to send somebody a message, and actually we have to get used to often using all of those things.
I think also. Being conscious that that form of communication involves a little bit of reading between the lines. And that's an important part of receiving communication, isn't it? Sometimes it's important to be able to listen actively and take instruction, isn't it, and take advice and give it as well sometimes.
And also it sort of, it moves across sometimes into things like empathy. Again, that, that's part of listening and understanding. And sometimes it also creeps across into things just like friendliness. Um, and warmth and the body language that you demonstrate, you know, so it's a complicated thing, communication.
Bryony Kingsland
So following up with that, Hilary, some of what you've just described and what Rob and Kira have described are skills that I think you learn throughout your working life and you refine throughout your working life. So, As part of our analysis, we definitely noticed that there's very high expectations from employers of the types of employability skills that someone will walk into the workplace as, as a young person who may be entering their first job and almost be oven ready, ready to perform at quite a high level.
Do you think that employers might have unrealistic expectations of what employability skills can be delivered by a training provider. Is there a level of, of learning that has to take place at work?
Hilary Gwilliam
I think it depends a little bit on the sector again. So I think there will be different expectations according to the type of work you want to move into.
And those experts who are working with you at college or university or at school are often experts and professionals from that sector. So they'll have a good understanding of the types of skills you're going to need for work. But when you think back, I mean, I was thinking about some of the points that Kira and Robert made, and we talked about working with different age groups and most workplaces now have potentially four or five different generations of people working in them, so I think it's a little bit about how to understand what your sector expects, and think about the sorts of things you'd expect to treat yourself in the workplace, I think.
Eric Oliver
No, definitely. Thank you, Hilary. It's always interesting to get the different generational perspectives.
So with that, um, I spend a lot of time on TikTok. Um, there's a few videos up lately which really demonstrate quite clearly the difference in opinions that young people and employers might have on how the workplace should look and should function. As we mentioned earlier in the session, there seems to be a cultural or maybe a generational divide between employers and Gen Z millennials on how the workplace should look, have you experienced or noted this, and if so, whatever challenges can this lead to?
Rob Cotter
I think that there are certainly challenges working in FE. There's not a different expectation but there's, there sort of is in a way of an elder lecturer compared to a younger lecturer and I think it's about the rapport that you build up with young people and then with the communication aspects of that.
You'll set a role model to them so you need to think about how you're communicating to them. Employers do get involved at early stages, but I would personally question, do they get involved enough? Are they setting clear sort of expectations of what they want from training providers, colleges, universities, schools?
And then how FE providers, HE providers, schools can help get younger people more employable?
Kira Foster
I think there's a disconnect really between What you need in the workplace and about like what you need, what skills you need as well. Because when I left my education, I mean, my City & Guilds was the closest really to what the trade ended up being.
Like my degree and everything else. They all kind of made it out to be this like big, scary place where everybody's really serious and really like stuck up. And then I've gone into the work environment and I'm using different skills. I wasn't even taught like technology skills. And communication skills as well.
And everybody acts a lot differently to what they set you up to. And I think, again, that's a generational thing. In the sense of, like, how they view work is a lot more. Not serious as such. I think my generation's a little bit more laid back from what I've experienced anyway. The way we talk, the way we kind of operate.
Like the work life balance as well.
Eric Oliver
I think one of the really important things that you mentioned there was about work life balance. And that's one thing we're seeing a lot. And one of the videos we, we kind of share around sometimes is the work life balance is a priority for a lot of us now, particularly Gen Z, millennials, the newer generations, nowadays, if we're contracted nine to five, we work nine to five, and they say once beyond that.
We may want remuneration for that, you know, either money or time off and leave that type of thing. Do you find that to be the case? Do you think work life balance is more important now for the newer generations? Is that, is that really important to you when you look at new jobs?
Kira Foster
I spoke to my nan actually, so she said she was brought up that work kind of came before anything.
We did have a bit of a debate because she was wondering why, for me, I'm very 9 to 5, so I start at 9. I have an hour's break, so I have exactly an hour, and I finish at 5. And if I do any overtime, I'm either paid for it or, yeah, it's taken off at the end of the week. I am invested in my job. And two, I feel like a lot of young people, At the moment, because of how politics are, like the fact, you know, we're working what I am working, like pretty much minimum wage and you're not able to afford rent or afford a car or they won't be able to get a house.
And we're finding that in education as well. A lot of teenagers are quite switched on to that. So they're like, why should I learn? Why should I get skills? I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be rich. I'm not going to be this. I'm not going to be able to get by in the world. So I think it's kind of a depressing look on it, but.
That's why a lot of young people are like, I'm contracted 9 to 5, I'll do my job well, but if you want me to work more then Obviously compensate me for it, or, you know, that's why the work life balance is a bit different. I think between the generations,
Hilary Gwilliam
There's quite a lot written there about the different sort of generations at work and, you know, what motivates each group actually, and the different attitudes and behaviours that they bring to work.
And I think that's quite interesting and how important it is to be mindful as an employer, but as an employee as well of those things.
Bryony Kingsland
I think you're completely right, Hillary. And one of the things that came out in the Local Skills Improvement Plans was that many employers have very set expectations of, of how young people are going to behave when they come into the workplace.
And there is the expectation that, oh, you know, we'll tell you, you're basically contracted to work nine to five. But if we ask you to come in regularly and work till six or start at eight o'clock in the morning, so we've got early meetings, they just expect young people to do that. And young people's responses is increasingly, well, Actually, that's not what I'm contracted to do.
But I think a lot of employers who are not, as Hilary's just said, making those adjustments and making those accommodations and taking on board that there are multi generational differences. But actually to make an office work, there are some real benefits to having that multi generational workforce where, you know, the younger people can teach the older people things that they've learned.
that we don't necessarily know, but also the older generations can teach younger people skills and knowledge that they may not know. Rob, is there anything you want to add to that at all?
Rob Cotter
Personally, I go in with the attitude of work, I'm there, leave my job, go and get paid, sort of thing. If I've got to work slightly later, I work slightly later.
I know I've got a couple of deadlines coming up during Easter halftime, which I've, at the moment, booked all off. I can foresee that I will have to go in, but it's, it's sort of one of those things.
Bryony Kingsland
And you accept that as part of the job and for you that's not an issue?
Rob Cotter
I don't think it's such an issue for me because I've got a really good working relationship with my manager.
So he, he appreciates that I'm going to come in during half term and I don't have to. And in return, I know I'm going to get something back.
Bryony Kingsland
So it's that appreciation and that flexibility that you get back that makes the difference.
Rob Cotter
A hundred percent. It's give and take, I think.
Hilary Gwilliam
You're touching on some quite important things there around, you know, which are skills in themselves, like self management and time management skills, but you're also talking quite a lot about positivity, aren't we, and optimism, and how we need to keep , keep buoyant at work, and yet actually times are quite tough.
So again, it's sort of being mindful of that, isn't it, as both an employee and an employer. Because they're critical, aren't they, to people being successful and feeling comfortable at work.
Eric Oliver
Join us next week for part two of the podcast, where we look at tips for hiring new individuals, emphasize the significance of work experience, and explore the obstacles to social mobility in accessing internships.
Until then, goodbye for now.