Fostering Neuroinclusive Workplaces

What if recognising subtle signs of struggle at work could revolutionise your team's productivity and well-being?

In this insightful episode of the Foundation & Friends podcast, City & Guilds Chief Executive, Kirstie Donnelly MBE, sits down with Professor Amanda Kirby, MBBS MRCGP PhD FCGI, CEO of Do-IT Solutions and an internationally acclaimed expert on neurodiversity, to explore the crucial importance of understanding neurodivergent conditions in the workplace. 

The conversation delves into key insights from her collaborative reports with City & Guilds, highlighting the need for compassionate and informed approaches to neurodiversity. 

This episode tackles:

• The growing conversation around neurodiversity, 
• Questioning the trend of over-labelling without proper diagnoses. 
• Moving beyond a limited medical model to a holistic biopsychosocial approach, 
• Stressing the importance of open, honest communication between managers and employees about their unique needs and strengths. 
• How can we foster truly inclusive environments that go beyond mere policies? 
• Explores fair hiring processes 

For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:

Championing and supporting Neurodiversity in the workplace

Neurodiversity Index report 2023

Neurodiversity Index report 2024

Neurodiversity Index report 2025

For more episodes from the series click here.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 4:02 The Labelling Dilemma: Navigating the Surge in Neurodiversity Terms
• 6:14 Encouraging Honest Conversations About Neurodiversity in the Workplace
• 8:13 Assessing Progress: The Rise of Neurodiversity Policies and Their Impact on Workplace Inclusion
• 12:02 Training and Awareness: Essential Tools for Leaders and Managers in Fostering Neurodiversity
• 14:02 Navigating Neurodiversity: Challenges and Solutions for Smaller Employers
• 15:57 Sector-Specific Strategies: How Industries are Embracing Neurodiversity
• 18:59 Key Actions for Employers to Foster an Inclusive Work Environment
• 21:37 AI and Neurodiversity: Exploring Opportunities and Innovations
• 25:06 Magic wand question
• 26:05 Closing remarks

Transcript

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 0:00

Skilling up manages to recognise those signs where it may not be going so well. So if somebody is withdrawing or somebody is irritable, or somebody doesn't seem to be productive, or something's been promised but it doesn't get delivered, not to go, that person is incapable but go, why might that have happened? So, asking the why, when, where, rather than just going, ok, it's all on you. And I think that's the training bit that we have to focus on.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE: 0:41

Hello everyone, and I'm absolutely delighted and privileged that today I'm going to be having a wonderful conversation with Professor Amanda Kirby, who has an international reputation for everything in the field of neurodiversity. It's great, as the CEO of a City & Guilds an employer in my own right, Amanda where I'm also having to think about these trends and challenges that we face in the modern workplace today, about how we do that well and how we bring neurodiversity in as part of the broad inclusivity agenda. And I know, having talked to you many, many times and Amanda's a great friend of City & Guilds that you've got so much to offer this important subject, having written eight books and over 100 research papers already. And I think you've got so much to offer on this important subject, having written eight books and over 100 research papers already. And I think you've got a ninth book just about to come out over the summer. Is that right?

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 1:30

Well, it's finishing it off, neurodiversity and Parenting. We brought out Neurodiversity and Education with two other colleagues last year, so I'm busy writing in the dark at the moment.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:1:40

Well, that's a great plug for the book and I'm sure we'll all want to go out and read that. And, of course, you work with City & Girls now for a number of years, Amanda, on this really important topic. One thing we have done with you over the last two years is publish two very important neurodiversity reports In fact, I believe the first time any such report was published. We published our first one in 2023. And I'm sure we can make the links available to people listening to this podcast and then we launched the second one in March, earlier this year, and one of the things we'll get into later is just some of the differences. So, Amanda Vermeer, would you want to say a little bit about your own personal journey, as to how you became such an advocate for neurodiversity, especially in the workplace?

Prof. Amanda Kirby:: 2:20

Sure, I think my passion came from the fact that I've got personal experience. So I was a medic. I had a child born 30, 40 years ago sounds ridiculous now who had a diagnosis of dyspraxia or developmental coordination disorder, and at the time I was told he would grow out of it. Whatever it was, he was going to grow out of it and that was where we were 30 or 40 years ago. We're thinking about neurodevelopmental conditions and traits, that they were children's stuff.

Well, what I needed was to know what was going to happen for my child as he grew up and was moving into the workplace. But then I realised this was not just for my child and my family, but also many other people who were experiencing growing up and trying to get into work and into employment and sustained and be successful and showcase their talents. And that opened up my eyes to really thinking about going from what happens between child and adulthood and I started studying that and then moving on to what was going on in the workplace and how people were not getting into the workplace effectively. Even though they had great talents and skills, they were still not getting to where they thought they were getting to. So personal experience, because I don't want people to not utilise their talents and skills because that doesn't make sense for society.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:3:37

It really doesn't, Absolutely, and when we think, today more than ever, you know, of the skill shortages that we have and that broader plunder, if you want to call it, it that we should be, as employers or society, actually really wanting to fish in in order to have the most maximum inclusive society that we can have and and for workplaces to reflect our society. That's really interesting and thank you for sharing that personal story. And thank you for sharing that personal story. I don't know about you, amanda, but I'm struck now today just how many people seem to be talking about neurodiversity or putting labels on you know, all the different elements of neurodiversity and even write down to people saying, oh, I think I've got this or I think I've got that and I've never been diagnosed. And I suppose that does bring me on to a slightly sensitive aspect to this whole matter. Do you think people almost then sometimes over-labelling and always over-attaching to the latest theme, I suppose, is what I'm saying yeah, I mean there's a balance, isn't there?

Prof. Amanda Kirby: : 4:38

I think the first thing in the workplace you don't need a medical label. That's a really important thing, and the more that we support people in workplaces and have inclusive practices, the less people need to say I am this or get defined by a label. So when you say somebody, I am dyslexic or I've got ADHD or I'm on the autistic spectrum, we're often defining ourselves by saying this is who I am. But actually the reality is we're far more than that and in fact, those boxes, those medical models, are very narrow and they're not realistic. Most people have a mixture. You know brain's messy, everything overlaps.

So you get boxed into in the workplace saying, oh well, this is what we do for the dyslexic people, this is what we do for the ADHD people, and that will never work right, because the job you do, the place you do, the tasks, all of those things are going to vary. So we've just got to move away from. You need the label to get the support, to let support you to be your best self and identify your talents and skills. And that's a changing narrative, moving away from a narrow medical model to a more biopsychosocial model which says, ok, we're short of talent. How do we get you in? What's stopping you get in and what's stopping you progress? And that's a workplace conversation rather than a medical conversation.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:5:54

That's a really good angle to put on it actually, because from our own neurodiversity reports that we did as I said last year and this year on the one hand it was. I think we both found it reassuring that at least a number of employers and the workplaces seem to be recognizing what I think employers have been maybe slower at, or fearful of even, is what do they do about it? So how can employers open up that conversation with their workforce so that people want to come forward and say look, I think I've got some challenges, but I'd really like to do this role and I really think with some support I could do it.

Prof. Amanda Kirby:  6:31

I think the first thing is once a manager starts to think I need to know about dyslexia, dyspraxia, adhd, autism, they become overwhelmed, right, and you stop having a conversation. So the first thing is is not to make assumptions, because somebody might have been given a diagnosis 20 years ago that may have been inaccurate, may have been the one that was being given out at the time, but it doesn't actually tell you about this person in front of you. So I think, as managers and employers, we go tell me about yourself. I've employed you for the job. Tell me how you can do your job, what's stopping you do your job. And if somebody says I have got itty bitty syndrome, then you don't need to know what that is, but just tell me what does that mean? How can I best support you? So let's have a conversation together.

A manager is not a medical diagnostician. If somebody's new coming into a workplace and they've never done that job before, you might have to work that out yourself. So that's up to the manager to talk about what is the job right and what's the organisation like and what's the culture of the organisation and what's the expectations. Then that means that person can start to go okay, well, if I have to do that then, first of all, I would feel less nervous because I know what's going to happen and I can ask for some help, because I can see that when I go into this situation that might be harder for me and I might need to know some training. So it's about telling us about the organisation and the organisational culture, the processes, what's happening, the habits and behaviours of people around you, but also keeping that dialogue going.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:7:59

Absolutely. That all sounds really common sense, doesn't it? I mean, in a way, it's about doing the right thing by you as an employee, and then your managers and leaders are as a workforce, but it so often can go wrong, can't it? One of the things I wanted to come at now was actually it was in the reports that we did where we saw that there had been an increase. I think it increased from around 34 percent to 44 percent of organizations now were introducing neurodiversity policy. So I guess I wanted to really ask you two angles on that One how heartened or not were you by that increase? Is it enough? And then, secondly, is a neurodiversity policy the way forward? Is that one of the ways in which an organisation can address what they need to make them accessible to employees, who may have those challenges?

Prof. Amanda Kirby:  8:50

So I think the numbers are slow, so this is not highly impressive. And we have to say the people who engage in research are often the ones who are more motivated. So it says to me actually there's probably a wider gap here. I think there's a lack of knowledge about what should go in the policy, and a policy is only as good as its implementation plan. So if it's stuck in a folder somewhere above the shelf and we've got it tick, that's not going to work really.

And I think the best way when you see the best organisations, they're really thinking about inclusive practice from the get-go, and that's not just for neurodiversity, it's about making sure that we get the talent that's out there and we don't put off people along the way. At all stages of the employment life cycle. We're really thinking about who's not here, why are they not here, and if they're coming in. So if we're trying to attract neurodivergent talent, for example, are they progressing or are you sort of showcasing and going? Well, we've got three of those and two of these and five of these, aren't we doing? Well? That's not inclusive practice, right? So are we being sharp about our measures to show that we are being inclusive.

And that's asking the people in the organisation across the business does it feel like a safe place to be able to share this information? What happens if you do? And I know from the report very much. We've got a way to go, because we're definitely hearing in some organisations. We're hearing this is a psychologically safe space, but it's not so. I think we've got a way to go because we're definitely hearing in some organizations we're hearing this is a psychologically safe space, but it's not so. I think we've got to move from policy to practice. You know, I think that's the next thing. And implementation, which is in the fabric of what everybody does day to day. I think when we put it sort of like icing on the top of a cake, the cake still needs to be good and taste good. Right, yeah that's true.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:10:39

You don't want a bake-off cake where you cut it in and one of the judges goes no, no, it's actually that, yeah.

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 10:45

So start with the cake right. Start with the cake before you put the icing on top. Make sure that it's woven into the fabric of everything you're doing, that your interview processes that you do are inclusive. Are we getting people? Are they sharing information? So even if they're telling you medical labels, if they're not saying anything, that's saying something as well. So I think we just have to be critical. And you know, inclusive practice helps everybody. So it's simple stuff. It's like telling people where the interview is happening and how it's happening and when it's happening. And is there a bus stop on the corner that you can get the number 22 to? It's things that will help everybody in your business. It's not for those people. I think we change our mindsets and say inclusion is about getting everybody, the right people, through the door. Then it means employers go. This is good for us and for our businesses means employers go.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:11:39

This is good for us and for our businesses. Think, what you're really pointed out for any organization and I include my own in that is is doing really good effective workforce planning. And if you do really good effective workforce planning and you understand now and the longer term where you need particular skills, and and you do that in a culture of being inclusive, then you will, by default, address many of those challenges we've been talking about. That said, how important is the role of training and awareness for leaders and managers?

Prof. Amanda Kirby:  12:11

Training is really important. It really is, because you can't have knowledge without it. And we need to broach the subject, particularly with managers, because, managers, I think you're in a tough gig really. You've got people above you, you've got people below you. You're trying to manage the team, you're trying to do your job that you've been employed to do. So I think the manager training is focal here. It really is.

When we're training managers, we're thinking about two-way dialogue, we're thinking about team working and also the environment where that takes place. So if I don't know and I'm going to a meeting, there's other people in the room, how do I make sure, as a manager, that everybody has a voice? How do we make sure that there aren't the dominant voices that are sort of there shouting loudest and the quiet people have not got the opportunity? And I think a lot of the time we really do talk about communication, preferences and differences and get managers to realise it's actually, again, constant dialogue.

Do you understand what I want you to do? Do you understand what you need to do? Is there a training gap? Have I made myself clear, right? Not just I've said it and I've said it again, so you must understand it. So, again, it goes back to the first principles of good management practice and then skilling up, manages to recognise those signs where it may not be going so well, right. So if somebody is withdrawing, or somebody's irritable, or somebody doesn't seem to be productive, or something's been promised but it doesn't get delivered, not to go, that person is incapable but go. Why might that have happened? So asking the why, when, where, rather than just going OK, it's all on you, and I think that's the training bit that we have to focus on.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:13:55

Yeah, of course that possibly gets even harder when you think about a micro or a small, medium-sized employer. How difficult is it for smaller employers to provide the access and also then the support that might be required? I guess that may be something that the government have to play a role in, in terms of how we can create more opportunities for people who have been diagnosed with maybe some of the more severe issues associated with some of the neurodiverse conditions that exist, and how can access to work help, I guess, in those scenarios.

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 14:30

I think access to work can make a huge difference because we're a country of SMEs, aren't we? We're not're not Absolutely. That's the reality, and lots of smaller micro-organisations won't have an HR department. They won't have somebody specialist in there. There'll be a few people working together and I think access to work can make a real difference because it can mean you can have some support with software if you need it. But I'm not saying software is the answer, but training, coaching, support can really make a big difference. You can get a bit of advice and guidance from you and the manager to know what to do.

I think employers becoming disability confident aware as well can really make a difference as well. So they can tap in. I think you have to tap in and utilise the networks you've got in your locality as well, because as an SME, you're running around trying to juggle and do 100 different jobs all at once. Having a network of support can be really useful. So I think that can help and I think that resources like the report. We put lots of practical strategies in the report that are freely available. There's lots of great stuff out there that gives you some practical tools and tips of what to do and how to help support somebody. I think that's helpful right, that people don't feel like they need to be an expert in dyslexia and expert in dyspraxia, but more to do, I think, for SMEs.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:15:47

I really do Absolutely, and also, as we've been saying throughout this conversation, just to be able to recognise the talent that could be there for them that they're particularly missing out. Just bringing it back to, maybe, sectors particularly, you know there has been quite a lot of talk, hasn't there, particularly over the last couple of years. In fact, you might even say there's been a bit of a trend for technology companies to specifically proactively go out and recruit candidates who have specific conditions, particularly like ADHD. Where are you on that in terms of that sort of very targeted, and also where do you think there are some sectors getting it right, if indeed you have seen any examples of that, Amanda?

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 16:28

Yeah, so I think it's really interesting because I think I've got two heads here I think probably so I've seen and worked with, like fintech, engineering and accountancy that started off in some of the scientific based finance engineering technology places and I think they were recognising that early on that quite a lot of the people in their teams already were neurodivergent and if they were more confident they were coming forward, and so then we're going well, we want more of you because you're really good. The challenge with that is that we end up having a stereotype that all people in tech are on the autism spectrum and all creative people have got ADHD, and that makes me then feel uncomfortable, because one in three people on the autism spectrum are nonverbal. You know they've got intellectual disability, real specific challenges. So we've got to be careful about super talents, super powers as a sort of messaging that's going on that everyone's on the autism spectrum is going to be great at IT. Some people on the autism spectrum are not interested in computers, will never work in computers, but might be really good working in as anyway. So I think we've got to be careful about challenging stereotypes.

I think what happened was that in some sectors also, we so you're putting people into a pen and going all these people are great because they've all got autism and, rather than going, they're great because we want them, because they're really good at the skills that we've got. So this is where I think we're moving away from hiring by condition, which I don't think is ever a good way, but hiring for talent and making sure our processes mean that person can thrive. Because what happens and has happened is you have a cultural socioeconomic bias there. So if you hire by label, you hire for those who've got a label. Who has a label are those people who can get a label, and then we start getting sort of you know, white men who are more likely to have, for example, autism spectrum, conditional disorder label, because that's the people who were getting it. So I prefer let's not hire by condition, let's not do that.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE:18:45

I think it's quite that. I like that. For anyone listening, and especially hiring managers and employers, listening to this conversation not hiring by condition is probably a really good practical step to avoid. What's the one thing if you would say that I should be making sure that I do, or any employer listening to this to make sure that we are doing all the right things to embed in the way that we've talked about in this conversation.

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 19:19

I think let's look at the employment lifecycle. Let's think about how we advertise. You want to get the talent that's out there, so you don't know who doesn't apply for your job, right? So that's the first thing. So be critical about things like your job descriptions. I for your job, right? So that's the first thing. So be critical about things like your job descriptions.

I think we're not good at job descriptions. We often cut and paste and adapt when we've already got and add bits on the end of it. We often have desirables and essentials and we put desirables because we think we better add some more in at the bottom, even though you don't need them. So I think we've got to be critical and go describe your organisation, describe what it's like to be there and what the job is, even if it's going to change over the next three to six months, this is what it's like, this is what the culture is like. And also, don't put a whole list of desirables, just put what's needed.

Think about the people in your organisation that are doing the job. What do they look like? You know, how do they behave? Do they really need a degree? And be critical about that and sort of go okay, how do we describe what the job is? And then I think it's really about making sure the interview process is as transparent as possible, and we're assessing for the job, not for the interview. So sometimes we judge people. Do they answer the questions quickly? Do they respond quickly? Are they sitting neatly? And I had somebody the other day training somebody for an interview and they said, well, I told them not to play with their fiddle toy and they needed to put that down and look at the person in the eye and I went well, maybe that thing that they've got in their hand is helping them focus, helping them concentrate, helping them respond.

So I think check our biases is really important and think about the language you use. I think in every organisation we have loads of acronyms. We have unwritten rules, how you go for lunch or you don't go for lunch. You can sit at your desk, you can't sit at your desk. You know what happens at the end of the day. All of those things that for lots of people go. What do we get on? And know it Recognised. For some people those rules are quite difficult to interpret.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE: 21:16

Yes, super advice, Amanda, and a lot of what you touched on and we touched on it earlier about data, and we talked about the importance of data but how it can also sometimes work against. But it does strike me that data, and being quite data rich where you can inside your organisation, is going to help you us as employers better understand. I suppose that leads me on to as we start to wrap this brilliant conversation up where are you on AI? I mean, these days, you can't have a conversation, can you, without talking about AI. No, and what it's going to do? I I can imagine for someone like yourself, amanda, thinking about where AI could be used very positively to help understand the trends and innovations that could come through in helping your diversity and employment.

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 22:07

Yeah, so various bits here. So one AI in recruitment at the moment has got biases. So if your sample isn't sampling from a population but it's coming from a skewed population, then to just echo those biases further. So we've got a way to go to make sure that where we're drawing the information from is accurate.

I think I use AI now every day I'm using AI and for somebody who's neurodivergent, sometimes having thoughts and ideas and then putting them into one of the AI tools and then it pulls it out and gives you headings can help people who've got planning, organisation, executive functioning can be incredibly helpful when it's going, and I'm really excited because I run a tech company, right.

So I'm really interested in AI in terms of person-centered solutions, because we started at the beginning of this about talking about labels and boxes and narrow approaches, whether somebody's got ADHD or DCD or dyspraxia or whatever we're talking about. But me, in the context of my job and the tasks I'm doing, about my home life and the constraints that I've got and this is where integration of AI into the tools we're using will be a game changer when you're trying to support that person in the workplace or in training, because you're going to know on day one what you need to do and how to support the person, and also on day 20, when actually something's happened at home and one of the children's ill or there's something going on in your life the dynamic nature of life this is where you're going to be able to have dynamic tools which are going to be able to support somebody through their lifespan, and I find that incredibly exciting.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE: 23:52

It's really freeing, isn't it? I mean, you feel, as you were talking, the freeing of that and the personalisation that will come with that and the opportunity, and I think if we can mostly look at AI through that lens, then I think that is incredibly helpful and, of course, I'm assuming AI would even play quite a big part in helping with more accurate and better timely diagnoses as well. Absolutely Very powerful.

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 24:17

I think yeah, it really is. We've got a problem at the moment across the UK not only across the UK globally where we haven't got enough professionals to make diagnoses. We're trying to move away from that tight medical model but more accurate model of what the needs are and what the sports needs are, and as a doctor, I find that getting the right people to the right people is really important. Otherwise, what we have is this sort of this crowd all going at the same point, all running together, and what we've got to do is try to select who needs the professional help first, and I think this is where AI can help, where the data can help to inform you about what are the particular needs and think about who needs to be seen first, and that will make a big difference.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE: 25:01

No, absolutely. And look, amanda, I could speech you all day on this. I really, really could. And my kind of last thought from you is if you had a magic wand, if there was one wish that you could make happen right now to sort of really advance where we are and the base that we're currently at which, as we've seen in our reports, is shifting but, as you're both indicating, slower than we would like, what would that one magic wish be, I suppose.

Prof. Amanda Kirby: 25:29

Have conversations, don't stop talking. I think when we stop having the conversations with people, we don't get answers and we don't explore and realise that sometimes you have to work out what somebody needs. So have conversations rather than don't, because what we see if you don't is we are seeing more tribunals in workplaces and spaces as well. Those have gone up markedly. So don't wait. That would be the first thing. Have a conversation and don't worry about trying things out and getting it right, but have a dialogue is going to be really important.

Kirstie Donnelly MBE: 26:05

Well, that sounds a great way for us to end and it's been great to keep talking with you today and best of luck with the book, and we look forward to doing our next neurodiversity report and seeing how far we've moved next year who knows? I hope so. I hope the dialogue is going out Exactly. Thanks very much, Amanda. Lovely to be with you today. Thank you.