How to Achieve Construction Success Through Collaboration

Collaboration: How the UK can bridge the Construction Skills Gap

As one of the UK’s biggest economic drivers, the UK construction industry contributes over 6% of the UK’s GVA. Yet despite this being a key UK sector, the construction industry has been identified as one with the most acute skills gaps in the UK, with deficits in traditional trades, green skills and digital skills. 

To explore how this valuable sector can develop the skills required to meet current and future challenges, host Bryony Kingsland is joined by industry experts Steve Plumstead, Director for Curriculum for Construction, Land-Based, and Engineering at Kirklees College, and Paul Skitt, Education and Skills Director at Flannery Plant, who share insights on how new modes of collaboration between employers and educational institutions are transforming the UK's construction landscape, including:

• The origins of collaboration between Kirklees College and the UK’s leading plant hire provider 
• How green skills and digital competencies can shape the future of the construction industry 
• The role of employers in local skills improvement plans (LSIPs). 
• How to meet demand for technical skills to meet current and future projects
• How Kirklees College is promoting career pathways in construction

For more episodes from the Navigating the UK skills Challenges series click here.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:43 Addressing the Growing Need for Construction Skills
• 5:03 Achievements and Future Plans
• 9:32 The Skills Hub: Building Pathways into the Plant and Civil Sector
• 14:36 Upgrading Workforce Skills
• 19:56 Changing Perceptions: Attracting Young Talent to the Sector
• 25:22 Employer-FE Collaboration: The Key to Addressing the UK's Future Skills Needs

Transcript

Bryony Kingsland: 0:00

 The UK construction industry is responsible for all infrastructure in the uk. From our smallest flats to our roads, railway networks, and our skyscrapers, construction is one of the UK's biggest economic drivers contributing to 6.2% to the uk. Gross value added construction has a significant role to play in the UK's aim to be net zero by 2050 with the retrofitting of older buildings and greener construction methods used in new construction projects being a significant factor towards creating a greener uk.

We can see that construction is a key sector in the uk and this sector needs skills to grow our local skills improvement plan analysis noted construction as the sector experiencing the most skills gaps across the uk. To continue growth in this valuable sector, we need to ensure we have the skills required for the present and the future.

Employers and providers have noted that an increase in collaboration and engagement between employers and providers. Helps ensure we are meeting unique skills needs for each local area. So to talk more today about the skills we need in construction, we have Steve Plumstead from Kirkley College and Paul Skit from Flannery Plant.

They've collaborated to boost construction skills in Kirkley, and we're here to explore how they've made this collaboration work. So welcome guys. Would you like to introduce yourselves?

Paul Skitt

Yeah. So my name is Paul Skitt. I'm the education skills director at Flannery Plant. My name's 

Steve Plumstead

Steve Plumstead I'm the director for Curriculum for Construction, land based and engineering at Kirkley College.

Bryony Kingsland
Thanks guys. And welcome. Thank you so much for coming to join us today. Yeah, pleasure. Um, it's really great to have you because as I said earlier on, one of the things we've noted in the local skills improvement plans is that construction skills needs across the country. It is a growing need, and we've also got, we know.

A population of people already working in construction who are coming up for retirement and we're not replacing, I think, enough young people into what is actually becoming, or has already become a really fascinating sector. There's a lot of outdated thinking about what construction skills and what working construction is all about.

So we want to discuss that with you today.

What prompted the collaboration between Kirklees and between Flannery to address the required skills needs in the local area? 

Steve Plumstead
You know, when we first sat down, we had a cup of tea, didn't we? Yeah. You know what I mean? Just steal and a pot pie. I had a pot pie. Of course we did. I know, but that was, that was just how we do that.

It just became just more of a. A conversation rather than it's something that has automatically has expectations. Paul having experience with the FE sector was a massive benefit. 

Paul Skitt
Yes. 

And for us to actually continue that conversation, to get the funding to actually you engage with the council, the SLT on my part, the Patrick fan on his as well.

Steve Plumstead
He was like, whoa, this is a, let's all be part of it. 'cause all, all I saw at the, the back of it was the benefits. Not saying I didn't think of the risk. We're all quite acutely aware of those, aren't we? Yeah. You know, we, you know, you are as a manager and that's the way we are out. We, but I just knew this was a good thing, you know? 

Bryony Kingsland

The next question was gonna be what were the pitfalls 

Paul Skitt
Oh, okay. Pitfalls. Well, I get, I just link it back to that first question now. I think it's really important for employers and, and the FE sector and the wider education sector to collaborate and connect together. Particularly with the skills and employment shortage that you are referring to.

We just wanted to try and see how we could work together and it's blossomed and materialise into some like, you know, tangible projects, which is great and which will be great for the College and the region, but also great for more importantly. The residents that live in that, that Huddersfield area, and Kirklees area, they're gonna get good jobs outta 'em.

Yeah. Out of our collaboration. I hope so. As employers, we've been trying to go out to the education system and say, look, these jobs are here. You know, you can be a machine driver and earn good money. And I guess it's just trying to, you know, articulate what the types of jobs there are. 

Steve Plumstead
Yeah. And it's, and it's far for us.

'cause. It's very difficult to start new provision as a college unless we've got back in and we know that there's, there's gonna be some sort of support from major stakeholders in and around Huddersfield. 

Paul Skitt

Well, particularly within yours. We've got the TIU upgrade, which is a massive project. And you've got the Direct Power station.

Yeah. You've got utilities. You've got. That transport bit. You got all the national highway stuff and, and I think you start to look at that and we a lot projects tiny and fine and that's where, you know, plant comes into. Yeah, yeah. Because you gonna have plant machinery on these projects. All these projects is gonna start and end with plant machinery and that's why the skills hub that we're.

Although we're collaborating on, it'll be wider than just plant. 

TA's amazing. I mean, this is what we hear from a lot of our employers is we've got problems to solve. We're not quite sure how we solve them, but I think those conversations with providers where you can sit down with someone who understands and who will, who will come up by the sound of it.

With ideas that might help you resolve some of those issues. 

And just to, to sort of, you know, talk up Kirklees a bit, and I won't name the other organisations, but we wanted to engage within that area of the north and I'd gone out to a number of different colleges in the area and the most responsive with Kirkley College.

So, because for us that responsiveness is, is absolutely key. You know, if you've got some organisations that are not gonna be as quick and responsive as we are, then. That partnership's gonna be difficult straight away. 

Bryony Kingsland

But what you're achieving is amazing. So, I mean, the, that responsiveness it Yeah, that's a lesson to be learned, I think in the FE sector.

Paul Skitt
Maybe.

Bryony Kingsland
I was gonna say, so are you a 12 month of operation? It just keeps going.

Steve Plumstead

 Oh, you know, definitely. Yeah. We, we doubt that. But that's, that's what industry is. Yeah. And we have to do that as FE we can't, just down tools at half terms. Thinking everything's gonna be fine when we get back.

Bryony Kingsland

It sounds amazing.

You've talked already a lot about some of the things that you've accomplished and what you've got planned. So what are some of the projects that you've already had in play and, and what have you accomplished so far?

Paul Skitt

There's obviously the local skills improvement fund. Now we, we were successful in getting some funding for digital training unit.

Bryony Kingsland

Great. 

Paul Skitt

A digital training unit's. Interesting because we started off sort of, I, I guess with. Maybe slightly more limited expectations. We thought we've a smaller mobile training unit and that that and that into a bloody great big trailer now that, and that's gonna be co you know, it's like a, a tripartite agreement between the college, the council and flannery.

Yeah. And we'll get to, are you involved? Yeah. And get other supply chain involved. But that's now gone from having a very good small mobile training union into something that's gonna be quite incredible. then there's our engagement and then Locally with the Lsip and the LIF has helped. That has helped that become, yeah, become a reality, you know.

Bryony Kingsland
So were you engaged in the local skills improvement plan conversations? 'cause I mean all of that research was done by local Chambers of Commerce and various other organisations and was that what joined you to up? 

Paul Skitt

It wasn't what joined us up. Uh, um, from an LSIP point of view, Flannery, you know, 'cause we are a national company.

We work all over the uk so I've been heavily involved in the, in the lsip where within all the regions where we've got major projects. Oh. So I've been involved in about half a dozen. Lsip. I chair a couple of groups, one in West London and one in Kent Medway, which is linked to lower Thames crossing. So I I, I chair the silver employer construction groups.

So we've been, and I've been making, you know, making sure the construction infrastructure's a priority to be honest, because you know, when they say that it's not a priority and I'm saying well, well is 'cause we haven't got enough people to deliver.

Bryony Kingsland

I was gonna say, the rest of the is not gonna work if the infrastructure's not there.

Paul Skitt
How they're always these sort of little dynamics. So, yeah. But I think employers. If they wanna influence the agenda, they got to step up and be part of the agenda. So we, we've heavily been involved. We weren't directly involved in the sort of, in the, in the, in the York one. But, but actually first, when, when Steve and I first met, one of the first things we started talking about was LSIP and skills project, which is even before thinking about the funding. Yeah. Just talking about essentially what are the local projects happening, what types of jobs you're gonna need to fulfill those projects. So that's, you know, 'cause we were just having a, a natter about that. Yeah. That's how it started.

Steve Plumstead
Yeah. And you know, that might always create opportunities, changing lives and it was a case of just sort of thinking, right. Okay. Let's just think a little bit bigger and like, think a bit broader. To be able to make the best of every ounce of this because we only get funding, you know, FE I'm not gonna get on my high horse.

But you know, it is the most criminally underfunded sector within education. Okay. But any funding we can get, we absolutely maximising that. That was one of the key priorities that I had and my team had. Because these things come up so rarely. 

Bryony Kingsland
Yeah. Which is a shame really. 'cause one of the things that was noted in the LSIP was obviously more engagement between employers and providers, but more and more employers were saying actually what they want is the technical skills.

They don't necessarily want the graduates, they want technical skills at levels 2, 3, 4, and five. That's they're really, really looking for. 'cause that's gonna fill. All of those areas, not just in construction, but in construction. A lot of those jobs that actually support the rest of the country and the rest of the economy.

Paul Skitt
Absolutely, and, and although LSIP are important, you know, it's about that collaboration, connectivity, offline, really things are gonna happen if you have relationships like Kirklees and Flannery and actually some of the LSIP stuff. You know, uh, the, the, it's more, I think 70, 70% of its CapEx and 30 percents revenue.

Really. You know, when we first got involved, it was about making sure there was, there was more revenue funding to support gaps in technical skills and education. I think that the LSIP's are great. It'd be, it'd be really interesting to see what happens with Skills England and how that shapes up and how that interacts with the local skills and improvement plans.

'cause although the collaboration connectivity is good, they haven't got, they're not getting everything right. But that's why. We sort work together, we can connect. Because if you work together and find solutions, then actually that's when you get best practices then rolled out across. And I think that's, that's gonna, that's, that's gonna start to happen.

It's about getting your key decision makers on board. Yeah. You've got your principle on board

Steve Plumstead

 Yeah, 

Paul Skitt

early doors and you know, I've been obviously talking to Patrick Flannery, the MD of Flannery is about this from the start. When we're having these discussions, there's no point us having these discussions if we haven't got the key decision makers, uh, 'cause.

If we're gonna enter into this partnership and have a skills hub, we want it to be sustainable. And in the long term, we want it to be a, this is about, this is this 15 years local legacy. Getting people, local people's, local jobs. 

Bryony Kingsland
That's fantastic.

So what's the skills hub going to do?

Steve Plumstead

For me, It is not only providing an entry point into the plant and civil sector. I mean, that is one of the, the key markers I think really if you look at FE any. College really setting, when you're setting up new provision, particularly some with sort of high value capital expenditure, we're gonna need to be able to do that.

It's so limiting and we're actually in a really fortunate position that, you know, we have got so many local businesses that are reliant on plan, so many other projects that are happening in, like in the regional area, not just like local library, the regional area. And it gives us that kind of, that opportunity.

Where we can, it's almost like go bigger ward and provide that aspiration for the students. You know, we talk about level one, level two, level three. You know, qualifications. These are really good qualifications. Are they, you know, to achieve a level two or achieve a level three, that is an absolute milestone for some students.

Bryony Kingsland
Yeah. 

Steve Plumstead

And to, you know, I think sometimes the FE sector suffers from that kind of bias. Yeah. In terms of you, let's go, go to a university, go to a graduate. Okay. But if you come up through the trades, you'll be going to sort of level five, level six, level seven, anyway. Yeah. Okay. Well, and it's having that absolute grounding.

Okay. I left school with no qualifications than me, a few GCSEs, which is still an unsolved mystery. But for the rest of it, you know, I came back to fe, you know, when I was in my twenties, and then I went to do my degree, done my master's degree, done my teaching qualification, done all sorts of other training, you know what I mean?

And that that's the power of FE and that's why we're doing it. 

Paul Skitt
The skills hub is, yeah. Certainly gonna start off with that sort of plant element, which is about machine drivers, which is definitely level two. And we are, when we're taking on new entrants, we're not interested in where they've come before.

What we, what we're interested in is, uh, their behaviors, like, can they turn up on time? Mm-hmm. Are they reliable, are they willing to learn? Their technical expertise is gonna come out through the, we, we've got, we're lucky enough to have a direct contract with DFE for skills bootcamps. Mm-hmm. So one of the first things we'll be doing, we'll be delivering plant operator skills, bootcamps, but I think the longer term ambition is, it becomes a wider.

A civil skills hub. Yeah. Yeah. And then you're gonna have the, the, the wider supply chain and, and Kirklees College at the center of it, delivering a range of technical civils education to support. It's all the projects we're talking about, it's society generated some success. 'cause you know, one of the, we were the, I think the first college in in York who was actually to run a sector-based work academy.

Bryony Kingsland

I wanted to ask this, 'cause obviously it, Paul, you've come from an EFF background. You've worked your way through up, you seem like you've got a fairly unique relationship. But is it unique? 

Paul Skitt

Are there other employers that are doing this or do you think there's actually not enough of it? 

I don't think there's enough of it.

I'm sure it happens. I think it is, you know, there probably are in a unique place 'cause of my understanding of the sector, but there'll be other people doing more so jobs that will understand it. But I think Flannery also, because I think also we have that agility and sort of a fleet of foot to just get stuff done.

Whereas when you start to get into multi-billion pound organisations, that whole decision making process and being agile just becomes a bit harder. The kind of governance and the governance of it and make decisions. Whereas I think. Yeah, I wouldn't say unique, but I think we're definitely one of the, the leading employers that do this type of work and we do this type of FE engagement across the country.

Think about it from a CapEx capacity and capability point of view isn't that, you know, the bottom line is when it comes to plant machinery, you know, we've got five and a half thousand pieces of plant across the uk. When we set up a skills hub, we need three or four pieces of plant there. But that's gonna be best part of.

500. 500,000. Yeah. Five 50,000 just for those bits of plant. Now most colleges are not gonna have the CapEx room to about to buy it. No. But then secondly, they're not gonna have the capability to be able to do the training. So this is where that partnership works, is that, you know, there's gonna be aspects that Yeah.

That Kirkley College are gonna be delivering the, as part of the skill up. So that's sort of, you know, sector based work type of stuff Then, but you'll, you'll be doing lots of other different provision. And then we're gonna be doing what I'd call specialist technical. And that's why you need that connectivity.

Bryony Kingsland
Yes. But there are gonna be other employers out there. I mean, we know that there's not enough young people coming into the construction industry, but the reality is. To achieve what you two are achieving. We need more employers to do it, don't we? But you are saying that actually a lot of larger employers possibly aren't agile enough, or maybe they just don't see that it's an important part of what they do.

Paul Skitt

I think they do it in a way, but do they really understand what can be achieved by really working in partnership? I think they engage. We need so much more. And, and, and I think the other thing is that employers don't always recognise is that because they think of colleges and, and, and schools as part of the education and training provision, which it is undoubtedly, but the other massive asset is the talent pool of students that they're sitting on.

One of the big things for us is the talent pipeline in Kirklees and the valley area. A lot of it's sitting within Kirklees College. Yeah. We want 'em to work on projects like TOU, don't we? But they don't necessarily know that, ah, they can be a machine driver and they could earn. Whatever, you know, 35, 40,000 pound is a dumper driver.

Bryony Kingsland

We were talking earlier, it's not just about encouraging young people into the construction BSE industry, it's also about the current workforce. Because construction BSE is changing because of automation and because of technology, the current workforce also needs upskilling. 

Paul Skitt

Absolutely. 

Bryony Kingsland

Are you doing any work on that front? 

Paul Skitt
Skills bootcamps are very much focused on both new entrants, but also upskilling the existing workforce. So we might be upskilling existing dump truck drivers to become excavator drivers, and that's very much project led because you need certain amount of machine categories for different projects.

So you've got your new entrance coming in, you've got your upskill, your existing workforce. Even on middle section of HS2, there was a big shortage of dozer drivers. So we specifically did dozer training for on our skills bootcamps to make sure that they could deliver that project. And then that's where the sort of digital aspect comes in.

'cause machine control is required on dozers and excavators. So then you're, you're using essentially that semi-automated machine control global positioning systems. They're using that digital asset to actually be, be more efficient in doing your job. So that whole digital side of plant is becoming.

Increasingly important. Just as an example, Flannery are now, each depot have a digital manager. There's a digital division within our group that, four years ago didn't exist Four years ago. We didn't have a digital manager or digital coordinators. And now we have, because of all the, the telematics length of machines, all the data we're using around logistics, the industry is moving on.

We need to make sure that the education, uh, sector and the, and the students know about the jobs that can be.

Bryony Kingsland

Yeah,

Steve Plumstead

It is about promoting this to the future workforce or the new intake of students. They, they won't have even, even thought of being a plant operator. 

Bryony Kingsland

No. I have conversations with young people who think that construction is still about trades.

Steve Plumstead
Yeah. 

Be a sparky, be a plumber, be a plasterer. That's it. You know, 

Paul Skitt

They'll be people. Yeah. They might know You can be a machine drive, plant operator and, and they might know what you can earn. No. You know, experience excavator, the drivers only 60, £70 thousand a year. Yeah. You know, and people don't realise that.

Steve Plumstead
Right, see you later... 

Paul Skitt

Yeah they don't realise that.

Bryony Kingsland

And there's the technology, there's been a lot of young people coming through college and school now are, are what we call, you know, they, they're tech savvy. Yeah. Yeah. They don't realise they're gonna get to use that in your industry. 

Paul Skitt
Oh, and, and Flannery excavator, the outside, the average age of that will be two.

Yeah. Two years old. National average is about four year. If you go and sit in an excavator, it's like getting into a copy of a plane. It's not like a rust. Deal digging. These are highly complex machines sometimes are not being effectively utilised because of people's digital skills, so you know. But the, but that's current workforce training.

That all, and that's the upskilling bit. So you start to think about, you know, you've got JCB, caterpillar, Volvo that are building these machines. K Matsu, these are some of the best manufacturers in the world. They are highly complex pieces of kit. And, and again, it's that articulating that to the, the, the workforce of the future to say, actually, did you know that you could do this?

And having the staff that are efficient and productive. 

Bryony Kingsland
It's really interesting. So we've got a productivity report and it does talk about the current workforce and the fact that a lot of the current workforce are coming up for retirement. They don't necessarily want to be retrained to use something that's high tech.

So what are the challenges there for, for organisations like Flannery and colleges like Kirklees?

Steve Plumstead

We've gotta remember what it's like for anybody to set foot into a college the first time, you know, when you're doing any kind of training. I was an adult learner. I went back, you know, when I was 21, 22. And it took me nearly a year to get through the door.

That anxiety about retraining and actually taking that big step is massive. And for, for us to be able to encourage people to come back and, and either retrain or upskill to do so in environment where there's no prejudice, there's no kind of, like I say, anxiety about, you know, what happens if you fail for us, Hey, it's one of the best parts about my job is when you see a learner come in at the start.

Then you see 'em leave with that big smile on the face. Hey, that's, that's why I get why I do what I do. 

Yeah. Look, the FE sector's the best in the business of doing that as an employer trading advisor. That's why that collaboration's gonna inform, because we will, we've got a lot to learn from the FE sector on that.

Paul Skitt
I guess how we try to do it is about demonstrating to our. Existing operators actually, by utilising new technology that's gonna make their life easier and it's gonna make their jobs easier. We've got operators at Ries that have been there since, you know, we've got some that are 45 years Yeah. Have been there.

And we're a 52-year-old company. We've got operators that, but by the way, they're the best operators. Oh. But, and when we get big projects, they're the first people to go into those projects. 

Steve Plumstead

Yeah, I bet. I mean, obviously we engage with CITB. I'm part of the, uh, British Association Construction Head, so we have dialogue with them as well in terms of.

You know, the regional and national picture, we're both aware out, we're both on a local, regional, national level, what's going on? And I think, you know, when you, when you're seeing the construction sector, I'm not saying in the state that it's in, but it could really be in a mess in a couple of years. And, you know, you feel like you compelled to do something for us.

Yes, we're sort of focusing on our learners in in in, in Huddersfield and Kirklees, you know, in Yorkshire as well. But hopefully these guys and girls are gonna go. National as well though, on internet. Absolutely. You know, they, you know, we set them on that path. No telling where they're gonna end up. Yeah. It's a lovely thing to think of.

Yeah. It really is a lovely thing to think of.

Bryony Kingsland

We know that young people are not seeing construction as a particularly attractive option. Listening to you two, it's making it attractive option for me, and I'm not a young person as you can see, we conducted a LinkedIn survey recently, and it was. Taking a look at what people from the construction sector, what the general public thought, what recruiters thought, what colleges and and the FE sector thought what was the biggest barrier to recruitment.

And the survey on LinkedIn, it gave a choice of answers that you could pick that you thought might make a difference to encouraging more young people. Construction and BSE and the survey said that utilising apprenticeships was key to filling skills gaps. Enhancing school visits was key to filling skills gaps and more localized collaboration coming second and third respectively.

Listening to you talk about your collaboration. I'd say that's probably actually number one by this. 

Paul Skitt
I made a note that that was our number one for us. 'cause it's gotta be like, if you gotta come to a local solution, yes, some of the solutions are the same nationally, but you gotta have that local solution.

Steve Plumstead
Yeah. And the regional FE colleges is a very, is one of the best starting points to, to address that. Definitely. And to your point about sort of going into local schools, I mean that's something we're quite prominent with at Kirklees, myself and the team we're going to. All the sort of local high schools, which is, and it's encouraging that they are doing construction trades in those schools.

But again, like anywhere else, they're struggling to get the staff. But you know, when you're doing a presentation for maybe a hundred, 120 students, they're all doing construction. You think, oh, I'm gonna need a bigger building here. Yeah. You know, it is great to sort of feel that, and, you know, see that kind of, that pathway for those when it is being set.

And for us now to be thinking actually these, these students might actually be going into the plant and civil sector. 

Paul Skitt

I think that collaboration between the FE sector and the employers is starting to change perceptions around construction. I mean, I do a lot of work with the careers enterprise company.

You have chair various groups, and some of the data that's coming out now is because the construction sector is being more proactive in that careers education space that is starting to turn around perceptions, because I keep on saying is that people's perceptions is that it's a. It's a dirty job. It's the trades, it's out on site and muddy boots and all that.

Yeah. And then, but that's probably about 10% of the jobs, 90% of the jobs are, are both blue collar and white collar, but actually very different to those jobs and, and highly technical jobs. So it's. I think the perceptions of the sect are starting to change, and I think that's, and that collaboration piece is, is critical to that.

'cause, you know Yeah. The reason, the, the reason why, you know what, as, as I said before, we, we can, we can, we can moan about the education system what we want. Yeah. But if we're gonna really, you know, access that. Talent pool and get them converted into our sector, then we need to go out and bang the drum and, and and, and tell them and articulate and see it.

And see it. That's, that's, and that's where that mobile solution comes. 'cause they're gonna be on those simulators and they're gonna like, you know, well, if we could get a chance, I'll be on it. 

Boom. But, but that is the point though, isn't it? Because 

it's why I'm so surprised that, you know, that that collaboration aspect of that whole on LinkedIn came up third.

Bryony Kingsland
'cause talking to you two and listening to you both talking about it, you can see that actually this is. This should be the number one. 

Steve Plumstead
I think so. Yeah. Definitely. I, I mean, I, I had a really nice compliment the, the other week actually. Yeah. He said, you're not very collegey, are you? 

Paul Skitt
So, well, I'd add to that though.

I still, yeah, you know, you, you've got to be, you, you know, I mean, he is a very college, but then, you know, I went to the college for the years. I don't think I'm very college. I think it's more about we're trying to make a difference. Trying to make something happen, rather. Yeah. You know, he's not, he's not meant to a self assessment 

report once, but again, you know, we can, we can talk about all that kind of college stuff.

Steve Plumstead
But again, it's, it's going back to the root of what we're doing, creating opportunities and changing lives, and that is, that's what we're doing. Yeah. You live by that. Everything else can fall by the wayside. And we know Ofsted will come and go. They'll come in and come and see what we're 

doing and, and that's how mutual partnership working.

So Flannery have now got our own DfE contract skills boot camps, as I've mentioned, we're gonna be having our first off offset inspection, you know, and I, I'm getting more FE involved in, in having to do mock inspections and helping us with all that stuff because actually it's the likes of Steve and, and other colleagues nationally that are gonna.

That they're gonna help families, you know, improve and get a good outcomes, um, because you're gonna help us. Yeah. I get 

this is and coming full circle, getting into it, you know, actually education, helping the construction sector. Yeah. Yes sir. So 

Bryony Kingsland
I can see that the success of not just the success of FE but actually the success of the UK future workforce is really gonna be based around collaboration between employers and the FE sector.

If employers want to get the skills that they need. Into their business, then working in partnership with the FE sector is the way to do it going forward. 

Paul Skitt
Yeah, right. And I've already been saying to that even before the election. I think they have been in listening mode, particularly from the employers because employers are stepping up and doing more.

But I think, look. Actually there's, there's some really good examples and best practice going on in the UK at the moment when they set up Skills England, they need to come and talk to the likes of Steve and I. 'cause actually, I think we're really examples of what's working and, and actually you can roll this type of collaboration out across, across the uk.

Steve Plumstead
Why not? Well, why wouldn't you? Yeah. You know, so, so we're waiting, we're waiting for the call. We are actually, the kettle is on, but we expect expected that invite to the house. Come on (laughter) 

Bryony Kingsland
Pork pie guys. Oh, right. No. So nice interest to see you later. You might get tea and crumpets. Oh, I'll get one.

Steve Plumstead
I'll give him a try. I'll give a try.

Bryony Kingsland
It has been great to have you guys. Just one final question. Is there anything else that either of you would like to say or add in at all before we finish up? Because it's been a really fascinating conversation, but as I say, for me, listening to you both talk, I think going forward. In employer collaboration is the way forward to make everything work and to address the skills that we can see coming across multiple sectors.

So anything else that you'd like to add in just before we, we finalise? 

Paul Skitt
The only thing I'd sort of want to get across is talking about Skills England and L SIPs and all, all the sort of skills policy stuff that's been happening over the last five or seven years. Some of it's really quite good and it's good conceptually, it's just the way it's been implemented has not always worked well.

But what I would say to. Policy makers now is like, sometimes you just need to not reinvent the wheel the whole time. Just sort of let some policies. Let them be and let that collaboration happen if you create a framework where you can allow this type of collaboration to happen on more often, on, on more occasions.

'cause I think success in terms of our skills and employment challenges as a country, the success lies in the education system and employers working well together. So that would be the only, yeah. 

Steve Plumstead

And yeah, I'll definitely, and, and, and you know, the world since COVID has changed massively, and no matter what sector we're talking about.

The gap between industry stakeholders and education is widening a little bit, and we've always gotta attack that. And we've got to say, right, okay, now let's come together and let's start sorting this out. If there is milestones and if there is sort of policies that we need to follow, then fine. But let's not be so rigid that we can't actually do what's right and actually apply a bit of common sense here.

Bryony Kingsland
That'll be amazing guys. Yeah, that'll be absolutely amazing. Thanks so much for joining us today. You've been really great guests. Thanks for watching today. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do write a review on your podcast platform.