Unlocking Apprenticeships: Overcoming Participation Barriers

Have we fully unlocked the potential of apprenticeships? 

Apprenticeships are often hailed as a game-changer for skills development, but are we truly making the most of them? From funding shortfalls to accessibility barriers, are we limiting their impact? 

In this special National Apprenticeship Week episode of Navigating the UK Skills Challenges, host Bryony Kingsland sits down with Jagdeep Soor (The Pathway Group) and Donna Kenny (The West of England Institute of Technology) to uncover hidden strategies to make apprenticeships work as intended. 

Key discussion points:

•  Funding fixes – How do we ensure investment reaches those who need it most?
• Breaking barriers – What practical steps can widen participation and boost social mobility?
• Lifelong learning – How do we make upskilling and reskilling second nature?

Whether you’re an employer, policymaker, educator, careers advisor, or apprentice, this episode is packed with insights to help unlock the full potential of apprenticeships.

For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:

• The Festival of Apprenticeships
• Apprenticeship Branding Conference
• Skills England
• Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education
• The Further Education Call for Evidence

Listen today, or watch on YouTube.

For more episodes from City & Guilds' Navigating the UK skills Challenges series click here.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:07 The Future of Apprenticeships: Are They Delivering for UK Skills?
• 3:31 The Growth and Skills Levy: Boosting Access or Stretching Resources Too Thin?
• 6:27 Are Functional Skills a Barrier to Apprenticeships?
• 12:15 Building a Lifelong Learning Culture: Strong continuous upskilling
• 13:55 The Apprenticeship Awareness Gap: Fixing Careers Advice in Schools
• 21:19 Employer Investment in Skills: Beyond the Bottom Line
• 22:49 Shorter Apprenticeships: A Solution or a Compromise?
• 24:54 Ensuring apprenticeship funding reaches disadvantaged and underrepresented groups
• 30:34 Conclusion

Transcript

Speaker Names

Bryony Kingsland 

00:00

Hi everybody, welcome to the City & Guild's Navigating the UK Skills Challenges podcast. Today we are discussing with Jagdeep Soor and Donna Kenny everyhing to do with apprenticeships. We're discussing collaboration, widening participation, social mobility and how to make apprenticeships better. 

Jagdeep Soor 

00:27

Thank you, Bryony. It's a pleasure to be here. My name is Jagdeep Soor. I'm Executive Director of the Pathway Group. We also run a number of initiatives and events looking at equity, diversity and social mobility and apprenticeships and skills from marginalised communities, and I run some of those. So the Multicultural Apprenticeship and Skills Alliance, the Multicultural Apprentice Network and also our Apprenticeship Branding Conference. 

Donna Kenny 

00:48

My name is Donna Kenny and I'm the Deputy Director of the West of England Institute of Technology. We're one of 21 institute technologies that are set up around England. We're basically education and industry working together in collaboration to look at higher technical education pathways, which obviously include apprenticeships. 

Bryony Kingsland

01:03

Wonderful. Thank you and thanks for joining us today. So what we're going to be discussing today, what should be happening with apprenticeships now and in the future, and your thoughts on that. So first question I'd like to ask you both is the current apprenticeship offer and the structure and design getting the outcomes we need for the UK skills now and in the future? 

Jagdeep Soor

01:30

That's a real challenging question and I'm going to be talking from perspectives of the pathway group as an independent training provider, but also the patrons and our strategic advisors of the Multicultural Apprenticeship and Skills Alliance. So it's wide and varied really. I mean there's differing views and I think what we need to look at is there needed to be a reform. There's a real issue around sort of skills gaps within certain sectors. There's also issues around re-skilling within sort of certain sectors, your growth sectors and your dying sectors. 

01:54

There's that issue around funding as well, so the levy pot not actually getting access to the apprenticeship provision as well, which is a big sort of contentious issue. So I think in terms of it not achieving results, and I think there's that is a big sort of contentious issue. So I think in terms of it not achieving results, and I think there's that real issue around sort of widening participation and social mobility for marginalised communities or those not knowing about apprenticeships and the knowledge base around sort of schools and an FE around what apprenticeships are and that competitive nature between apprenticeships and FE and HE. So I think there needed to be a reform and hopefully it'll be for the better. 

Donna Kenny

02:27

Thank you, donna? Yeah, I mean, there's quite a few levels, I suppose, to this isn't there. You can look at it from the do they work for employers, do they work for FE, he, do they work for young people? And also do they work for schools? In terms of that talking about that progression route, and I suppose in all of them there's downfalls. 

02:43

In all of those areas, the fact that they are underpinned by employers is absolutely needed with those occupational standards. Perhaps the reviews need to take place quicker, because I think I read recently that what we're training for skills in the last three years and then after three years they need to be upskilled again. So do we need to look at regular reviews of those occupational standards that underpin those apprenticeships, the structure in terms of how that recruitment into apprenticeships that can be quite a tricky landscape for young people to navigate. It isn't as straightforward as that kind of education system that pushes them down that university route, and I think there is a piece to be had around that structure of how we perhaps maybe as industry look at how we can maybe align that with a better approach to how we encourage young people to apply into apprenticeships. 

Bryony Kingsland

03:35

So, from the point of view of the skills levy, currently we've got a levy which just covers apprenticeships. We know that the government is looking at turning into a gross and skills levy. What are everybody's views on that? Jagdeep, I know that you liaise and work with a whole variety of different organisations. What are their views? One of the things that we hear out there all the time is that actually we know that the levy is almost underspent. Now, if they turn it into growth and skills levy, which could look at things like boot camps, it could look at other types of courses and programmes Is that going to be a good thing? Is it going to be a bad thing? Is it going to help wider participation and social mobility? Or actually, is it so stretched that we're looking at stretching something even more thinly across a landscape which really needs a lot more investment? 

Jagdeep Soor

04:18

I think that's a valid point and a lot of the organisations that I work with they are really sort of concerned about that in terms of it really spreading even thinner than it actually is, so the funding not getting to where it should be. 

04:29

There's that real issue around the equity of opportunity for individuals as well, particularly around that social mobility piece. So how are they going to access an apprenticeship if the opportunity isn't there? There's that piece around, obviously, with the level 7 apprenticeships, and there's a lot of larger employers within particular sectors who are really going to be challenged with regards to what decision is made there. And then I think we've got that piece around those individuals who, basically, further education isn't for them, so they might have a challenge. They haven't got the functional skills levels or whatever it may be, or they haven't passed their GCSEs. So what is the option for them? Is an apprenticeship the most appropriate option? Yes, but how do they access that opportunity or do they fall out? The system become neat and I think that's a massive issue if the funding is spread too thin. 

Donna Kenny

05:16

Donna, what's your thoughts on that? Yeah, like you said, you sort of spoke about the underspend, so it does need to be reviewed in terms of okay, well, what we're doing with that. I think anything that comes into that skills and growth levy in terms of funding other qualifications, there should be a real thought around. It has to be a technical education based qualification, so underpinned by those occupational standards that are the backbone of how apprenticeships, through the reform that they had in 2017, have kind of been set up. So, looking at our higher technical qualifications and other forms of technical education that can allow progression onto apprenticeships for, as you said, that kind of widened participation, absolutely there needs to be kind of a review of that. Functional skills I think that's probably a separate podcast on its own. 

Bryony Kingsland

05:58

It is yes. 

Donna Kenny

06:00

But yeah, it definitely needs to, and looking at where is it feasible for those qualifications to be taken out of that skills and growth levy. It does definitely need to be something that is underpinned by what industry needs and not just qualifications that are decided. 

Bryony Kingsland

06:19

Coming on to the whole Functional Skills issue, I was listening to I can't remember it was a conversation going on the other day where there was a few providers and a few employers talking about the fact that they've got young people who want to enter an apprenticeship and, in some cases, older people in the workforce whose jobs as you mentioned, Jagdeep some jobs are disappearing but also, more importantly, those Functional Skills are not actually that relevant for the apprenticeship they're doing, and when they actually get to do the job that the apprenticeship is relevant to, they don't need the Functional Skills they've learned in the first place and so they've taken a qualification which is irrelevant to their apprenticeship, but they can't finish the apprenticeship or they can't get on to the apprenticeship in the first place because they've got to have a level one or a level two in most cases for that apprenticeship and the Functional Skills are just not working and they're actually blocking that widening participation route that you were mentioning earlier on. 

07:07

Is that something that you're seeing when you're talking to your employers and you're talking to the organisations that you liaise with? 

Donna Kenny

07:13

Yeah, I think Functional Skills is definitely a pinch point. I think education is really missing a trick in terms of those young people that are out there that just don't function well in those exam scenarios, perfectly capable of applying maths and English in a contextualised environment or a job in industry, but actually putting them in an exam scenario and just because they don't have that benchmark that has been set, they are missing out on these opportunities. And I think also employers are missing a trick in terms of that talent pool that they could encourage in and rather than looking at academia qualification, it's looking at skills and what the interests are and what are those skills that they can transfer into that workplace. 

Jagdeep Soor

07:52

I absolutely concur with that. It's got to be functional and it's got to be relevant to the industry and the sector. I think there's a lot of talk about young people entering the apprenticeship provision. Also, we mentioned about certain sectors there's growth sectors and dying sectors and the need for people to reskill or retrain and the economically active. Throughout that you're one million plus who, again, the apprenticeship could be the right route way for them and the pathway for them to reduce the skills gap. 

08:17

I think that's something else we need to look at. For example, female returners you're 50 plus. 

Bryony Kingsland

08:22

You were talking earlier on about your 50 plus project that you carried out. Can you talk a bit about that and what that did and how that worked? 

Jagdeep Soor

08:28

That's right. 

08:29

Prior to coming here, I used to work for a work centre called the Centre for Aging Better whose focus was on 50 plus, specifically around health, homes and work. 

08:38

So I led on to the work element, which is looking at redundancy and retraining and employment, and it's currently going on, actually, but it was looking at a test case and a case study around due to the reform in the diesel engines and decommissioning of diesel engines by 2030 and electric engines coming in, the issue around sort of reskilling the 50-plus within those sectors. So a fabulous case study project that was being run looking at automotive and manufacturing sectors and also the supply chain with General, land Rover and the SMEs and what the impact of that would be for the 50 plus, and it was a lot around. Are apprenticeships the best way for these individuals? Do we need to look at what specific support that they get from government sectors such as Jobcentre Plus or careers advice and what does that look like for the 50 plus? And we looked at mentoring, whatever and there's some great data and evidence that came out of that and specifically looking at reskilling these individuals. 

Bryony Kingsland

09:32

Yeah, it is. 

Donna Kenny

09:33

And, donna, you mentioned that project that went down in the southwest with Honda and yeah, so Honda in Swindon and GKN where it was before my time when I joined. So there was a lot of redundancies made within the Swindon Honda plant and through the Institute of Technology because we can kind of look at those flexible sort of learning and sort of training. GKN needed staff to be able to go in and do kind of fitting sort of manual dexterity work. So it was a case of how they put together a short course that was skilled, those people that were being made redundant so that they had jobs and were able to kind of work within those kind of engineering fields. So again, a really good way of sort of showing that sometimes those shorter courses as well are really beneficial for upskilling our older workforce. 

Bryony Kingsland

10:16

Well, this is where this growth and skills levy could address some of this, and we were talking about this earlier. 

10:19

We were talking about careers and the fact that we've got a careers offer in this country, which is not great, could definitely be better, certainly for young people. It's still improving and we hope it will keep on improving. But we were also talking about that need actually for the current workforce to have access to some sort of careers advice and guidance which enables them particularly those, as you were saying, whose jobs are disappearing through automation or fourth industrial revolution, whatever it is to enable them to look at something and go OK, so what skills have I got that I can use in another job? And what could I add on to that? Potentially, maybe the Growth in Skills Levyy could address. In terms of a short course, you mentioned a sort of bootcamp type approach that would enable them to do a quick short course or a six-month course but then move into another sector because they've upskilled to become a fitter where they were working inside the Honda plant or something similar. 

11:11

It should be feasible, surely, don't you think? 

Donna Kenny

11:13

I wonder with some of the larger companies where you have your kind of learning development departments I think they're really good, they invest in staff. So there is that conversation. If they can see that something is disappearing skills skills wise how can they retain their trust staff by maybe upskilling through that L&D and maybe skills and growth levy. Who what, depending on what qualification it falls under with those sort of departments. But again, that doesn't kind of help. There are SMEs perhaps where you know they don't necessarily have those resources and capabilities to be able to do that. So is there a case where maybe some of our larger employees could be kind of support or mentoring some of our SMEs to kind of talk about those skills for the future and how they can offer those sort of upskilling opportunities? Because we know that there is these future skills that are coming around the corner and fundamentally a lot of the skills that we have in the workforce can be transferred. There just needs to be industry-specific input to be able to create that transfer into those industries. 

Bryony Kingsland

12:12

So this all comes down to having more of a lifelong learning culture in this country, doesn't it, which we don't necessarily have at the moment? I don't think we know we've got the lifelong learning entitlement coming in. It's been pushed back to 2027. But it really comes down to how does the government develop more of a lifelong learning approach? Can the growth and skills levy help with that? 

12:31

It should enable people to upskill in short, sharp bursts, and we also don't have that function on a platform anywhere like the green energy passports, where actually, if you're an electrical engineer or you're an electrician, it will tell you okay, you've got these skills, you've got these qualifications. If you do this extra 20% worth of skills programmes and courses, you can then become qualified to connect our wind farms up to the grid, which is going to be a skill and a job which is going to go on for the next 20 or 30 years and I think sort of industry has changed and it's no longer a job for life. 

Donna Kenny

13:10

For years and years ago you move into engineering, manufacturing or whatever it might be and that's it. You're set for 30, 40 years. That is no longer the case and I think there needs to be that drive towards okay. So where are we transferring and how do we upskill to get into that? And if that just becomes natural, that is that lifelong learning. You are now working as an aerospace engineer Brilliant, great. Actually you're going to move into something more kind of green skills on energy, offshore, and you just need to upskill 20 percent to get that industry specific knowledge to take you over to the wind turbines, the energy for offshore. And that is that lifelong learning, but it's encouraging it. You've got the skills for life but actually your career doesn't necessarily stay with that one company or certainly within that one industry. It can transfer to multiples but that will require that upskilling and that hopefully will kind of encourage that lifelong learning. 

Jagdeep Soor

13:59

That's fabulous careers advice from Donna there and the wish is that all careers advisors have that knowledge base, have that industry base knowledge who are able to provide that careers advice for young people. 

Bryony Kingsland

14:12

Do they? 

Jagdeep Soor

14:13

And I think there's a real lack of knowledge within that, probably stereotyping it in the majority of teachers. They've gone through the FE and HE process in that pathway rather than going through an apprenticeship, and they don't necessarily know what an apprenticeship is. So we're looking to develop a programme to go into schools and it's called my Perfect Apprenticeship to go into schools and really talk about eight, nines, tens in terms of what an apprenticeship is, and this is an alternative route way to FE and HE. But in return we're also educating the teachers and the careers advisors who are listening in on that course to say, well, yes, this is what an apprenticeship is and is this the right pathway for this individual to go into rather than going through to FE and HE? 

Bryony Kingsland

14:55

That's true, isn't it? I was just thinking, reflecting on what you were saying there in terms of we know that actually teachers in schools and in FE colleges to a certain extent, but definitely in schools they give an awful lot of careers advice, but most of them have had little or no careers advice training. They're giving it from their own standpoint, almost as a peer mentor rather than as a real careers advisor. I can see Emily over there nodding her head. She's obviously our apprentice. She's been through a similar situation. So we've got people giving careers advice in schools who do not have that breadth of knowledge about what is going on in industry, what the options are and what a real career path might look like for the young person that they're talking to. What can we do to address that? 

Donna Kenny

15:36

I think kind of. I work with our local careers hub down in the southwest and we've got a real kind of strong set of careers advisors. Obviously they have to understand everything our BTECs, our university courses, everything. With apprenticeships it is a little bit more trickier to unpick. UCAS is set up in a way that you apply a certain time of the year. Apprenticeships is very different, obviously, because you can apply at different times during the year. I met with a wannabe apprentice. She was at a school where I'm governor and she's actually taken a year out to apply to degree apprenticeships because she knows how competitive it is and she is spending this year doing some work experience, going to all the open events and creating really good applications and she can focus solidly on that. I totally agree with you. 

But one of the questions that we kind of ask people I think is now absolutely redundant. 

17:24

We sort of say to people what do you want to be when you're older? And I think we need to stop asking people that, because there are so many different occupation pathways out there and it can change multiple times during your working life, and actually we should be reframing that and saying what skills do you have? What skills you have, because they will transfer into multiple industries, and I think that's what we need to be looking at is turning to a more of a skills approach rather than a qualification approach and and kind of what do you want to be? Because I think that's when we're going to get our young people to recognise their value, their skills, and then what pathways they can lend themselves to. And technical education, being skills, is a really obviously good sort of way of moving into that sort of field and getting qualified into a career that you want to progress in and that just as much applies, I think, to the current workforce, doesn't it? 

Bryony Kingsland

18:10

It does. 

Jagdeep Soor

18:11

Yeah, just going back to Donna's point about looking at new teachers coming in. So I think a real quick win could be around that collaborative approach. You know we could get industry experts, apprenticeship experts the apprenticeship programmes and provision is so complex. If schools or FE or he just did a collaborative approach where they got industry involved, employers involved, your provider involved, etc. Whoever is involved within the apprenticeship provision, and did a regular sort of updates and did like regular sessions with these individuals, then I think that's probably a quicker win rather than sort of looking to reform sort of the DfE way. 

Donna Kenny

18:49

And on that as well. So kind of what we do kind of in our IOTs. It is about that collaborative approach and actually I had a meeting yesterday with all of our education partners and employer partners for exactly that. How do we look at doing some kind of technical upskilling for our teachers in secondary schools as well, as FE as well, because it's that progression onto HE where there is technical education available within that route HTQs and degree apprenticeships. So we're looking at that immersive learning using AI and that is something that we're in very early stages of. 

Bryony Kingsland

19:20

Using our strength as a collaboration, we can kind of roll that out across the region and hopefully maybe be a bit of a trailblazer for what that looks like across across England, so we could watch that word collaboration is so important it's I mean, it's come up again and again during the podcast, but where I've heard it and where I've heard people talking about collaboration not just across colleges and schools, but also between industry, between employers and colleges and schools. That's where everything really works well. It's getting employers more engaged in what colleges and schools, but also between industry, between employers and colleges and schools. That's where everything really works well. It's getting employers more engaged in what is going on in the post-16 sector, whether that's the current workforce that needs upskilling or whether it's young people coming into the workforce. If that collaboration is happening, everything works more smoothly. 

20:03

Teachers, young people, understand what the opportunities are. People who are in the workforce can see what they can do. That's going to upskill and keep them relevant in their career and their job going forward for the next 10 or 15 years. Collaboration there's got to be some way that this government can encourage more collaboration between the FE sector and employers, and I'm wondering whether the Growth and Skills Levy can do something along those lines. 

Jagdeep Soor

20:26

I think it should. I think that should be one of its main objectives. I mean, there's a great example, really and not because I work for the multicultural apprenticeship and skills alliance, but it is a great collaborative community that we've built there from variety of corporate employers, public sector employers, FE institutions, awarding bodies and point assessment organisations, but then also a lot of strategic providers who look at evaluation, who look at sector leaders within youth employment and things such as that, and the amount of collaborative work that's being done there, the amount of shaping on their various apprenticeship provision and their onboarding and their recruitment that's being done, and the flex that they've incorporated and embedded in their system. It's been quite impactful really in terms of what they've done by learning from each other. And that's just an example and I'm sure there's many more that go on. But that collaborative approach is the quicker way to a quicker win. 

Donna Kenny

21:20

And I think, with what you're saying about that collaboration, I think maybe what government needs to be doing is actually seeing what is actually happening with collaborations at the moment, because there is a huge amount taking place. We're one of 21 IATs across England that all work collaboratively within our regions to focus on priority skills sectors. So I think they need to maybe understand fully what is happening so that they can put more money behind those collaborations that are established, rather than trying to set up new initiatives that will need to get off the ground work with what we've already got, because we've got momentum going with what we're doing. 

Bryony Kingsland

21:54

It's interesting you say that because the government has just published the Further Education Call for Evidence, which is asking for input in terms of generally post-16 education going forward. This is an opportunity, isn't it? For the sector, for employers, for FE providers, for IOTs, for private providers, for anybody engaged in the FE sector, to feed in and say, actually, look at the money we've got. It could be so much more effective if you used it to encourage more collaboration between the sector and between employers you used it to encourage more collaboration between the sector and between employers. 

22:31

I honestly think that we need more investment from employers, and if they can't afford to invest money because we know that obviously times are tight, then potentially there must be other ways that employers can contribute more and collaborate more with the FE to make the most of the money that we do have. 

Donna Kenny

22:46

We see that in the IOT. So our employer partners, they sort of contribute time. Yes, they put their time so they help us with teacher ups, the sort of technical skills piece we're looking at. We work with JISC, who are a large digital employer yes, brilliant on the educational platforms, amazing with AI and immersive learning and they'll support us as one of our partners. So we do have our employers. We have like an employer charter as part of our iot where employers will sign up to be partners and that will be involved doing guest lectures, offering t-level placements, work x placements, whatever that may be, to be a part of the round table discussions that we have within the IoT to talk about what industry needs, how do we develop those qualifications and how do we protect those future skills. 

Jagdeep Soor

23:31

Moving forward, we're talking about a collaborative approach and we're talking about governing bodies or umbrella organisations who lead various sectors Having that collaborative approach. I think the challenge with these various organisations is they all have different asks or different priorities than another and I think that's the challenge with this collaborative approach and sort of lobbying, with those one or two asks. 

Bryony Kingsland

23:54

Everybody's got a different requirement. Something that Eric and I noticed during our analysis of the L-SIP is actually there's an awful lot of noise out in the sector about what's needed and what could be done. One of the things that's been coming up again and again and we were talking about this earlier was the duration of apprenticeships and the fact that you know we've got apprenticeships where the minimum duration is 12 months. But, donna, you were saying we know that there are apprenticeships out there, but actually the employer and the learner have both agreed that at nine months, the apprentice be they a young person or an older person, who's already in the workforce, has gained all the skills they need. But they've reached the nine months, so they don't bother to achieve the apprenticeship and finish it and do the EPA. Yeah, definitely, because there's no need. They're completely skilled at what they need to do. So the government's looking at shorter duration apprenticeships. What are your views about the benefits and the challenges of that? 

Donna Kenny

24:48

I think, the entry-level apprenticeships. So if you kind of look at our level two, level threes, then having a more flexible approach to the length and duration of apprenticeship is definitely something that needs to be considered. The report that we read was around that kind of nine-month pinch point where you've had nine months commercial experience, nine months into that role, you'll competently be able to carry out that job role. And sometimes the employers then don't really see the value of going through to that EPA and that young person is like well, I've got a job and they've offered me a permanent role and and actually there's a bit of re-education on both sides. There isn't there. 

25:18

But if we shorten that duration of the apprenticeship, then we're seeing people able to go through and progress quicker as well onto those higher level apprenticeships that we see out there, or degree apprenticeships or even some of those, the HTQs or some of the other courses that are out. So having that shorter duration apprenticeship I definitely think is something that that needs to be considered, but it does need to be looked at on an individual case basis. There are some apprentices out there that will never ever be nine months because of the technical competencies and the qualifications that are embedded into it. But, yeah, there are some of those entry-level roles which really helps that social mobility to enable those people to be able to get on that ladder of progression, get their foot in the door in these companies, to start progressing, their careers to start progressing their careers. 

Bryony Kingsland

26:06

OK, so Skills England have got, and the government have got, this call for evidence out of post-16. From the point of view of you as a participation organisation and an IOT, an organisation in the post-16 sector, what three key points or plans would you like to see Skills England and the government implement to address the skills needed now and those in the future workforce? 

Donna Kenny

26:31

I think they really need to listen to the evidence. They need to see what is actually happening out there and, rather than rebranding and reinventing stuff, you're seeing what is actually working and putting money behind that. So I concur with everything you've said as well. 

Jagdeep Soor

26:46

But one is around ensuring that the funding gets to where it should be and we don't have that sort of that levy pot in the cloud that goes back to Treasury or whether it doesn't get to industry. That's a big thing. So the growth and skills system actually does what it says on the tin. I think the second bit is around ensuring that social mobility is key at this and getting those individuals and disadvantaged communities and really looking at that equity of opportunity and accessibility of opportunity for disadvantaged communities, but also communities and individuals who are the intersectionalities, really so individuals that are really missing out and could contribute so much to society, contribute so much to the skills gap, contribute so much to the economy effectively. 

Bryony Kingsland

27:29

Yes, we were at a conference the other day and there was some statistics and some research that's been done that said that organisations that recruit more diverse workforce have more diverse customers and more customers. So generally your customers become more diverse because you've got a diverse workforce. Therefore you get more custom. So I mean that should be key to any organisation's thought process if you want to be economically successful. 

27:54

But the thing is recruiting a diverse workforce is a really difficult thing for most employers to get their heads around, isn't it? We're talking to the West of England about some of their research into how employers recruit, and I think a lot of employers recruit in a way that actually excludes people without even realizing that they're doing it, because they ask for things like degrees in what is really a level three job. And yet there needs to be a sort of a new approach to how you recruit as an employer and how we encourage employers to recruit and what they actually ask for. I think that would be another really key thing to address. 

Donna Kenny

28:27

And I think as well with employers we need to kind of remove that or equivalent when we're looking at what qualifications and what we never see in our job descriptions is an apprenticeship. We see degrees and we see level three, a levels, but we never see what we would like to have is an apprenticeship in, because that's that gold standard, that's that industry spec, that's what we want as an, but we never see what we would like to have as an apprenticeship in, because that's that gold standard, that's that industry spec, that's what we want as an employer, but we never see that in job descriptions. 

Bryony Kingsland

28:49

That's amazing, isn't it? Because when you think about it, I know so many employees that have said to me apprenticeships are just amazing, but they put it in their job descriptions. They actually. We never see it. You're right, because I've never actually seen it in a job description. You must have an apprenticeship. That's crazy. 

Donna Kenny

29:03

And I think you know looking at that kind of equity piece as well. It's about how do we look at that recruitment, those pathways into those apprenticeships, in terms of assessments, accessibility. Is there equity there for people that want to be able to apply? We know that people that are really well supported by parents, they're really confident and able to do that, the ones that don't necessarily have that confidence, they won't ask for that support so they will struggle through that application process but that doesn't mean they're any less employable. How do we have these conversations with our employers to make it more accessible to all? 

Jagdeep Soor

29:36

I was reading something about evidence. Really, somebody put that it's harder to get degree level apprenticeship than it is to get into a Russell Group university. 

Donna Kenny

29:44

Yeah, and a lot of young people are using apprenticeships as their first choice and their university as backup. So if, for whatever reason, they don't get offered an apprenticeship of their choice, they will then go to university as a backup. It should be the other way around. 

29:58

It should absolutely, because what we're doing then is employers should you be having those A-stars? What does that mean as a person? That means you did really well in that exam, but actually as a person you might be able to be worked perfectly fine in that role, but you might have got a C or a B or whatever it might be. So, again, employers are sort of cutting their nose off to spite their face by putting those goalposts really high in terms of what their expectations are of these young people. 

Bryony Kingsland

30:24

Encouraging employers and I think it comes back to that careers advice conversation we had earlier on to value both routes. I mean, there is always the academic and the HE route, always, but actually the value of young people coming up through apprenticeships and coming up through other courses and programmes which are similar to apprenticeships, whatever they are and I'm not talking about unpaid internships because I just think they're an incredibly bad idea. Again, that's a widening participation issue, I think, with unpaid internships which only really can be done by people who can afford them or whose parents are willing to support them. But the apprenticeship route needs to be just as valued as the academic route. 

Donna Kenny

31:02

We talk about equity in terms of people going into the workforce, but actually there needs to be equity in terms of apprenticeships and university. They are equal standard. 

Bryony Kingsland

31:10

And the crazy thing is, when employers do them and they're done well, they are just as valued, in some cases valued even more, dependent on the type of employment or the type of sector subject area that the young person or the currently employed person is going into the apprenticeship is actually a better route. 

Jagdeep Soor

31:27

I'm a real strong believer and I've got that lived experience, that lived reality of an apprentice and the amount of multicultural apprentices that you, you, hear, you speak to, and all they say is I am the first, I'm the first person within my family to have gone through an apprenticeship. So we really need to build that base. Supposedly it should be a pathway for anybody and everybody. 

Bryony Kingsland

31:49

Guys, it's been really great to speak to you. Thanks so much. I mean. Your background and your experience in the apprenticeship sector and in what you do is blatantly obvious. 

Jagdeep Soor

31:57

Just a couple of things I'd like to bring across. Obviously, national Apprenticeship Week. We run, as an organisation, a festival of apprenticeships which is three careers roadshows throughout the year. But we're doing a lot during the National Apprenticeship Week in terms of webinars and I believe City & Girls are involved in that Fantastic. And we are also having an Apprenticeship Branding Conference coming up on the 3rd of April at Millennium Point in Birmingham. It's not very policy driven. We want it impactful, innovative and inspirational. 

Donna Kenny

32:27

Brilliant. Yeah, I mean obviously National Apprenticeship Week coming up, but I think you know it's great that we have these weeks that highlight apprenticeships. But apprenticeships are kind of all year round and I think anyone that's kind of listening to this that kind of is in industry, in education, you might be a parent or a carer or a teacher is reach out to your local institute of technology, your local fb college, your local he college. How can you engage as an employer, how can you explore apprenticeships more for your business, get involved, how can you as an apprentice maybe inspire that next generation? So just think apprenticeships. Yet we've got the week coming up to celebrate it, but think about it all year round, because more apprenticeship ambassadors 100 definitely and I am an advocate massively for pressure I will keep banging the bang in the drum. I know you will. I know what a great advocate. 

Bryony Kingsland

33:10

You are donna. You both are. I think it's great the work that you do. Thanks very much for joining us today. 

Donna Kenny

33:15

Thanks, amazing, lovely thanks for having me a pleasure to be here. 

Bryony Kingsland

33:18

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