City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
Welcome to City & Guilds’ podcast series. Each month, we’ll be exploring some of the issues raised in our recent research and across skills development.
City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
Breaking Barriers: Stories from Women in Leadership
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Ever wondered what it really takes to climb the career ladder as a woman? Or how to navigate the challenges of imposter syndrome?
Join host Polly Rowe for a special International Women's Day episode of Foundation and Friends, as she sits down with three remarkable female leaders from the Princess Royal Training Awards.
This episode explores the personal journeys of our guests, revealing the importance of learning, development, and unwavering resilience. We uncover the significance of mentorship, the ongoing pursuit of gender equality, and how the Princess Royal Training Awards are making a tangible difference.
But that's not all! We delve into the crucial role of creating a supportive workplace culture and the ripple effect of female empowerment. Discover how to overcome barriers, both personal and systemic, and why seeking help is a sign of strength, not weakness.
Key Takeaways You'll Discover:
- Accelerated Career Growth: How learning and development can propel your career forward.
- Unique Challenges: The specific hurdles female leaders often face in the workplace.
- The Ripple Effect: The far-reaching impact of female leaders beyond their immediate roles.
We'd like to thank our guests: Kirstie Donnelly MBE, Chief Executive of City & Guilds; Faiza Khan MBE, Executive Director of Corporate Affairs and Foundation at City & Guilds; and Fenella Tallon, Chief Assessor for the Princess Royal Training Awards, for joining us on this special International Women’s Day episode.
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For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:
Celebrating Female Leadership on International Women's Day
Speaker 1And I think we need to remember and tap into that in a child sometimes, when we're at work and go in a day, you will be meeting new people and doing new things and learning all the time and I think, just being honest with yourself, sometimes it's going to feel scary, but when you come out, the other side, just like children, do you feel wonderful?
Speaker 2Thank you for joining us on today's episode of our Foundation and Friends podcast. I'm Polly Rowe, head of our Foundation Programs and Engagement, and I'm delighted, on International Women's Day, to be joined by three female powerhouses who are responsible for helping in some way, shape or form, deliver our Princess Royal Training Awards, which is our flagship City and Guilds Foundation Awards Program. Today joining me I've got Kirsty Donnelly, who's our City and Guilds Chief Exec, I've got Fenella Tallon, who is Chief Assessor for the Princess Royal Training Awards, and I've got Faiza Khan, my boss, but also our Exec Director for City and Guilds Foundation. So it's a great conversation where they share lots of their own personal learnings as being female leaders, but also some of the things that have really stood out for them through the Princess Royal Training Awards. So I hope you enjoy watching and listening to this episode and let us know what you think.
Speaker 2Thank you for being here. Happy International Women's Day. So you know, look, we could all talk for ages, but this is very conversational just to find out a little bit, really, about your own careers but also what's really stood out over the last 10 years for you for the princess royal training awards. So I'm going to come to each of you first with my first big question can you share a moment in your career where learning and development has really accelerated your growth and taken you to that sort of next level? And I'll go in order down the lines.
Personal Growth Through Learning and Development
Speaker 3I'll start with you, fenn well, yeah, really interesting question actually, and so pertinent to the Princess Royal Training Awards. But mine's actually quite recently. It was 2019, and I was working with post 16 providers and we were helping bringing them together so they could work together, and most of the time we were doing curriculum development stuff and then we were doing some planning and all of them said we need help with children, young people's mental health. We don't know what to do. We've got loads of people's coming forward and we don't know how to support them. Um, so I got really interested in in this area and I thought, goodness, this is a really big concern. So I did a level two qualification in understanding children and young people's mental health, an online course and it was so interesting I wanted to kind of take that further. So I then became an instructor for the mental health first aid course. But it's a fantastic course and it really, really paid off, because then I became a project manager for setting up mental health support teams in schools brilliant. So it really and I had no clue I thought this could be a big mistake, yeah, but it didn't turn out to be. Yeah, it's very, isn't it? How? But it's funny how, just being in our career patterns and wherever we are, it's never linear.
Speaker 3As you said, you know, a door opens or an opportunity opens, and, depending on what that is, you kind of go with it. Before you know it, you've learned or you've developed. You didn't even know. I mean, in your case, you consciously took a course, which I think is brilliant that you did that, but there's so many experiences like that that happen to us, aren't they Right? So you're still using it.
Speaker 3Now, though, am, yeah, I'm still delivering the training. Yeah, it's great, and it's just been revamped and, yeah, fantastic, and and such a need, because, of course, covid happens, yeah, and the need was much greater. What about you casted? That can be that. Well, not that it's a competition, by the way, but okay, so now that is a really good example.
Speaker 3I suppose, really, what I was saying maybe I'm, maybe I'm just a true vocational girl. I'm always feeling, on the job, um, look, it's not that I've not had, uh, lots of training, learning, development opportunities, and I've, you know, be gone on courses. I've, you know, gone leadership development programs. But I suppose a little bit like what fem was saying, but not structured in in the way that you obviously really tattled something you wanted to to know more about. I've just always really taken lots of opportunities to learn and develop through watching others, through putting myself in experiences different and settings that maybe I'm not comfortable with or wasn't comfortable with, and I found that that sort of really learning on the job and almost sometimes making mistakes as well they say, don't they they're learning through the mistakes you make is always a good way to learn.
Speaker 2Um absolutely so. That goes back to what we um used to say for sitting girls and learning in the job, on the job, and then out to the next job.
Speaker 3But I do think fenn makes a really interesting point, because I think sometimes maybe we should take more deliberate time out to do something very specific. I mean, I I did want to learn to, I still do want to learn to sign, and I did do a sort of very introductory course, but I never quite get to the place where I then commit.
Speaker 1Faisal, what about you? I think, similar to what you were saying, taking for me it's been when I've done something that I think I can't do, it's a new experience, and I've gone and done it and actually it's been okay. And then you go, oh, I can do that, and next time I do the same thing, it will feel a bit better and I think that's been a definite thing for me over the years. I remember I'm just reflecting back there's one really big conference I went to with loads of grant makers in San Francisco. It was a big deal and we were there presenting and I felt quite nervous about that and a funded partner at the time said would you come and do this thing with us? And I remember thinking, god, you know, it was my first role in philanthropy I thought, god, it's a really big thing and it's I'm not sure I can do a really good job. Will I do them justice? Will I mess it up? And actually we went there and it was brilliant and we, you know I had a brilliant time and I really enjoyed it. And it's just, you know, it takes me back to my youth participation days.
Navigating Gender Equality in Leadership
Speaker 1Young people often have that moment where they're doing something for the first time. They think they can't and they do and they fly and you watch them. I actually don't think as adults we're that different and I think we need to remember and tap into that. In a child, sometimes, when we're at work and go in a day, you will be meeting new people and doing new things and learning all the time, and I think just being honest with yourself sometimes is going to feel scary, but when you come out the other side, just like children do, you feel wonderful. Definitely had loads of those lovely moments in my career and I think each of those then builds confidence as you go and that's probably fair to say that.
Speaker 3I just was wondering you know how much maybe we think what we just all been talking about there. Is there an imposter syndrome aspect to it? Or actually will it be the same for men? I suspect it probably is, but I do think it's always been slightly harder, hasn't it, fen Pfizer? Maybe just to get your voice heard or just to find that platform as a woman? Yeah, it is, and it's having the confidence to sort of put yourself out there. As you say, try these things, go to the conference, actually do it.
Speaker 3And it's interesting we had one of our recipients for the Princess Royal Training Awards South Wales Police and they were trying to encourage women into leadership management positions and they were thinking and people weren't coming forward. I remember that and they were thinking why is that? We have got people, you know, who are ready to go to that next step, but they just needed a little bit of development and the confidence to actually apply for those jobs. And then, when they actually did, they were successful. But it was actually having the confidence and thinking, yes, I can do that, yeah, and you know, and actually going for it. And so that was a simple, it was a four-day program. So it's fairly. You know it wasn't a huge long-term thing, but it was just enough, exactly just to say that you know to get that end result.
Speaker 2With that sort of theme in mind, kirsty, thinking about City and Guilds and you know you're our first female chief exec and you know we've all loved and love working underneath you and, I think, paving the way for the younger generation to just see and feel like there's people you know that are like you at the top, as it were. But in terms of sort of city and guilds, how are you and your sort of ELT working to really progress that sort of gender equality piece across the organisation?
Empowering Women Through the Princess Royal Training Awards
Speaker 3Yeah, it's a really good question, of course, and it's something I do care about, as you would appreciate, and it's something that we do measure consistently, and I'm really pleased to say that we have seen considerable shift in that in medium pay terms. In terms of gender equality, if I actually thinking, I think something like not far off, 60 percent of our workforce now is is female. It still, ultimately, is about having the right mix and diversity of an organization which caters for everybody, regardless of gender and and all those other factors. However, nonetheless to everything we've been talking about here and given, this is also, you know, supporting the important role that women play in the workplace and at home, for that matter. You know, I do think there are things that we've had to do and continue to have to do to exponentially show there are opportunities for women to progress and have careers at sitting girls, and outside of sitting girls, for that matter and therefore that for me, is not just about, you know, ensuring there is we're moving towards equality and pay. I mean, we've still got a way to go, but we're moving towards our gender equality as a country, we've got a way to go on that and that point but for me, it's also about opportunity, it's about progression, it's about flexible working, it's about how we even go and recruit our female workforce.
Speaker 3So I'm really pleased that, yes, over the past sort of two or three years, we've put much more focus on that and I think as a result of that you know, it is a bit like you said, paul, at the beginning people start to see more people like me, like you, and then, before you know it, it becomes a ripple effect. So I'd like to think that we have started to see that ripple effect happening in inside the organization. Of course, as you say, I became the first CEO and then Damon Lim became our first female chair. So we have presidents and our presidents. So, yeah, for the first time in in our 146, 70 year history, we've sort of got three uh women, uh leaders. So, um, that's great it is great.
Speaker 1It's great and I think if I could just add to that, everything is culture. Everything is culture how people feel in the workplace and how they connect, how much. I mean you know we work in the same team and I think you know we have a really lovely culture in terms of never seeing it as a permission piece when it comes into some of those diversity things as human beings we need because we might be caring for someone or have a bit of additional responsibility, and I think so much we gain from good culture. It's a really big thing. It's really interesting.
Speaker 3it's. It really is about that strategy, isn't it? And everybody being clear on what that is, because that always comes through with the Princess Royal Training Awards. If it's driven by strategy, it's much easier to actually fulfil the hallmarks. It's quite the standard. Yeah, exactly, and some of these other programmes that have focused on getting women into leadership positions, it's been all about the underlying strategy. That is really bought into. Yes, it's actually not just a tick box exercise. It's absolutely authentic. It's absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And they want to see how that's going to be measured. What will success look like? Yeah, because that's another thing. Sometimes we get applications and really it's not sure what actually are you trying to achieve there? What will success look like? And you think, oh, I'm not really sure. Actually We've just been told to put this program together, but actually you need to take a step back and say what was the strategy? Why are you doing it?
Speaker 2yeah, I was just sort of thinking now about the foundation is responsible for delivering, you know, the Princess Royal Training Awards In terms of some of the initiatives, because we're, you know, obviously responsible for lots of different programmes, both awards and grant funding. But what stands out for you from the foundation when it comes to some of the women that we've been supporting or celebrating through some of our programs?
Overcoming Challenges as Female Leaders
Speaker 1so the foundation has a theme around overcoming barriers and creating access to success, and I think the bursary program is a really good example of that. And and I was just reflecting you know, one of the first, earliest bursary recipients I met was a woman called marcia bennett male, yeah, and she was a stone carver. It was literally the first few months I joined city and gills and I got lucky enough to go to a heritage craft event where we were handing out our bursaries, and she got given a bursary and said to me you know, I'm now going to use this money to go off to Italy and explore my craft in a way that a I couldn't afford and b I feel endorsed to do so. It wasn't just the money, it was the someone's backing me piece, and I think that you know the foundation enables things like that. It enables people to overcome barriers and really has a direct relationship to someone's success. I think that's wonderful when we see that.
Speaker 1But then also the systemic thing. So the Big Idea Fund, where we've taken an intentional approach to say, look, things could be better in the criminal justice system and we're going to invest in programs that we think can have wider impact. We've worked with CIPD, for example, on that, women in Construction, the Roots Programme for women in irregular status or who are newly arrived communities. So there's so much that the foundation's doing which, for me, fulfill the purpose piece for City and Guilds why City and Guilds is so special and I know I sound a bit like a C&G fan, but you know there's a lot that the foundation does to help drive equality through its programmes and its celebration of success.
Speaker 2Fenella, thinking now specifically about the Princess Royal Training Awards and you've talked already about South Wales Police and I remember the Northwest Ambulance example. There's been loads of programmes around women leadership. I remember the Northwest Ambulance example. There's been loads of programs around women leadership. But what is sort of stand out for you over the years that you've not just been assessor but assessor and chief assessor? Now what has really stood out for you?
Speaker 3I think it's programs that they make a difference kind of plus, so they achieve their outcomes but then they go on to do other things, which is one of the really really key things. So we had a lovely example with we talked about construction actually earlier women into construction. So this was Amy and they did have 25% of their workforce were women, but they wanted to encourage women into senior leadership positions because they had 14%, I think. So they really focused in on creating a program and it was really lovely because it was research led, yeah. So they spoke to the women who were already in the organization who might aspire to a leadership position, said what help do you need? How can we make it easier for you? And based on that they devised a program. So it was a 12-month programme initially, with loads of different bits to it. They had mentoring, had qualifications if they wanted to do it, it had buddying, it had all sorts of things and really a very impactful programme that really gave them results. But the sort of icing on the cake was they said actually this has been so good that we are now going to extend it out to include ethnic minorities. So we would have a particular programme like that and we want to come back again to apply for the Princess Royal Training Award.
Advice for Future Female Leaders
Speaker 3So you know, you think fantastic, that's so great. Yeah, it is. And it's a really great example because, of course, that revalidation well, obviously, in some cases it'll be new programs and in some case it'll be revalidation. And I think that's what I think so wonderful about the princess for all training award it it continues to have that ripple effect all the time and people really value it because they come back time and again. But I mean, I think one of the things I really value about the princess trial training awards and and it's not just because you happen to be sat next to me, fed, but you know, if I think about the last 10 years, you know, given we're here to celebrate or talk about role model and women, you know you to me are a role model for the Princess Royal Training Foundation. I mean you've been there from the beginning. You actually have evolved in the role to the four where you are as the chief assessor, as how Liz just said, and I just think that's a lovely tribute to women and brilliant women doing brilliant work, like you've been doing.
Speaker 3Given it is our 10th year, thank you very much for that, because it's because of you and the other assessors, it has gone from strength to strength. Thank you, it's been an absolute pleasure and it is always the highlight of my year, and I'm not just saying that because we're doing this. This day and age, we all need highlights, and it's just grown and grown and it's just got so many different types of applicants coming forward and, as you say, coming back and back, and then it's not just the award, is it? You get the alumni community. That's really kind. Yeah, it really is, because it's not just OK, here we are, you've had the award. See you later, it's a real sure event.
Speaker 3It really is and I think people really value that and don't expect to have that. Yeah, and it's such a great way to learn, isn't it?
Speaker 2And to spread good stories you spoke just now, fed, about what the organisations are doing and, ultimately, when they're applying for a Princess Royal Training Award. You know they've looked in their organisation. They've seen maybe, perhaps something that's not working as well as they would like it to, and they've addressed it. So, with that sort of theme around challenges and obstacles, now and again I'm going to come to all of you with this sort of question. But as female leaders, you will have experienced challenges and obstacles and I just wondered if you could each maybe share one or two that you're comfortable sharing with over your career, where it hasn't gone perhaps as you wanted it to, and and how have you sort of overcome, overcome that challenge?
Speaker 3yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Um, what to pick really? Um, I got into my kind of dream job, um, which was, uh, I was head of recruitment and admissions at a university and it was like, yeah, I really loved that job because it's about getting people into university and also dealing with the sort of technical admissions process, because I like that sort of technical piece as well. And then I got the opportunity to move overseas with my husband. So, actually, so I did, because I thought, well, it's an amazing opportunity to go overseas, did that, so left the job. But then, when I came back and I started applying for jobs again, somebody offered me some consultancy, um, and 23 years later, I am still doing consultancy.
Speaker 3It's funny to how one door you shut one door but another one does open, as they say, absolutely, yeah, so I never had a clue that that was even possible. So actually I suppose it's not really a stumbling block, but it's choices you have to make, isn't it? And I think when you're a woman, when you're making choices about what you're doing, you know you have to think about that and then, yeah, take your chance Absolutely. And what you've just illuminated is the fact and again, I'm not saying there aren't a lot of men who don't have to take that role on as well, but you in that role, it's about your career and your family, and you're having to balance both those things, as opposed to, maybe, your husband, who was, I'm sure, thinking about the family too, but was really, really focused on his career, and that still happens very much today, doesn't it?
Speaker 1But you, Kirsty.
Speaker 3I have been in get over scenarios that borderline sort of that male patriarch, slightly borderline bullying approach. So I've had to learn how to navigate that in various different roles. But I've always tried to see those as opportunities to to learn and and build my own resilience and to those scenarios. So they've been very real scenarios. I can remember one distinct um meeting I turned up to many, many years ago when I first came down to work in london. So I'm going back 25 plus years ago and I walked into a boardroom that had a was all all male apart from me and it was quite a few investors in there as well as the executive of this organization that will remain nameless, and I had a presentation to give. I was, I was on the board and at the end of this, well, that's very good, but you're from the north, aren't you? And a woman, and they literally said that to me and I was, oh crikey, I went and so and I just I forgot now what he said.
Speaker 3I think I probably use humor. I've always used humor quite a lot as a defense, so I think that can't be quite as good, yeah, but I think it can be a good way to break these down and actually it never happened again and as a result of that I was able to kind of you know, work very closely with those guys and it was all fine. But I think you just have to accept unfortunately you may and hopefully less so these days, because I think the awareness that does more exists, but nonetheless, I think you just have to accept that we will always, you will always hit some barriers and challenges, and it's as much about how you deal with it and how you cope with it and then how you use it to move on, as opposed to how you let it Resilience, yeah, and how you, rather than let it sort of eat away at you or sort of turn it into a negative. So that's kind of how I've always tried to look at those sorts of challenges.
Speaker 2I think that advice is good for you know, anyone that's that that falls into that group that becomes the minority in the room. So, whether that's based on gender, ethnicity, age, whatever it might be, yeah, that's good advice, isn't it?
Speaker 3to just take it on, learn from here yeah, although I think that's right, although I think I'd like to see today there probably would be a, those things wouldn't happen as much. Yeah and b. People are better equipped to challenge than the name. I maybe felt I could in that moment in time, or I chose my way of challenging back and actually I've determined that I would never lose my northern accent as a result. So that was. I came out of the room and thought, right, I'm definitely going to stay very northern. Whatever I do, I will not be posh.
Speaker 1Pfizer, what about you? I think there's a long and similar theme of breaking the mould. So I remember, you know, definitely, when I was deputy chief exec, I was much younger around the board table and just felt like I got lucky and privileged to get senior positions, maybe a few years younger than my peers at time. So I'd find myself in you know, roundtables at DfE where everyone else was a lot older and, you know, just felt, and actually at the time and she was a woman, she gave me, my boss, gave me a lot of responsibility to go out and do stuff. So I was, you know, empowered, which was brilliant, but also, you know, a bit greener and quite young in terms of the peers that I was sat with.
Speaker 1And I think so often women are breaking the mould and so every time you do something like that, actually there's a bit of kind of someone else watching you. I remember at the time that was a youth charity and we had, you know, younger people who actually, weirdly I'm still in touch with you know who have now gone on to become CEOs of their own organisations and I think never underestimate how, you know, you in that moment might have been being watched by someone else who's going? Oh, could I do that interview? You know, look how she dealt with that, and I think you're always doing that and you never quite know the impact you're having on other people. So I think for me, those challenges in working life will continue to come up. If we can be resilient and overcome them, we're not only breaking the mold ourselves and feeling good about that, but you're also setting an example to the next person.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think you're right, though I think if we could bottle every day when we are our best selves, and and drink, that it'd be great. What life would be great isn't it?
Speaker 2I am on that sort of modeling piece. I think I mean personal experience and people are watching and I I was satisfied so many time. You know, I really appreciate that around our board tables I know there's a working mum, for example, because it gives you that sort of permission to not feel bad if you've got to pick up or drop off, and so I think people do watch and they're learning and they're, you know, constantly thinking oh, it is okay to say that or do that or be that.
Speaker 3You know, I think it's important, the role model piece and I think sometimes, yeah, you've got, you know, children, and sometimes we've got elderly relatives and you know, and as having an employer who you know understands that it's just so important because we are people, after all, we are human and also it's great business development to care about your people.
Speaker 1You know the loyalty you get back when you're actually bothered to care. You can't buy that. You know you could spend a lot of money on training and development courses and if people don't feel like you buy into them, you're never going to get that, or a self-famous sale People saying people don't remember what you did but they remember how you made them feel I knew this was going to happen, where I thought, you know, actually will we have enough time?
Speaker 2so I'm going to try to wrap it up a bit. But I think because if I come to you sort of as chief exec really, and as a chief exec that might be listening to this thinking, I need to invest now into women in my organization. How do you think that the princess royal training awards can help shape future women leaders or programs that are going to support women leaders?
Speaker 3well, I think, really, the examples we've really heard about today that Fenn has reminded us of, I think, really, as we continue to look to develop the, the Royal Training Awards, do we actually start to focus in on the themes? I mean, one of the things that we did a few years ago, as you remember, fen is we decided we would bring in recognition around inclusivity and diversity. Yeah, and that's been a brilliant platform to do exactly that, and I think, therefore, so I think there are going to be thematic areas where we can look to do exactly what you've just said, polly. So I'm really keen, as we look to the next 10 years, you know, we constantly. One of the things I think has been so brilliant about the, the awards, is they've continually evolved. We haven't just gone, hey, we've got a great formula here, fine, job done, let's do that. We are constantly and that's what I love about the work that Fen and the and the assessor team also work on, as well as the internal team what can we do next? Where can we push it?
Speaker 3The skillshare event yeah, that we had last year. That was a phenomenal success. You know we'll do that again this year to celebrate 10 years and and so how we continue to put a focus on things that really matter, and I think you know, leadership, female leadership, authentic leadership, creating opportunities for for as many people as we can is going to be a consistent theme that we're going to want to always make sure that we pull through the awards, I think, yeah, absolutely. And they are a standard, aren't they? It's not a competition. No, absolutely. We can recognise everybody who comes forward who's got something to celebrate and who's got the strategy and can tell us the story about what they needed to do, what they did and then actually what the impact was, and it becomes a formula, in a way, and it becomes a platform, and you can keep passing it on. From that point of view, exactly, absolutely.
Speaker 2So lots more to come. Final, final question now. So anyone who's listening, particularly particularly women, younger women who might be listening, so one piece of advice that you would give. I know it's really really hard to um someone who's perhaps a bit younger, a bit earlier in their career, about how they can sort of navigate, you know, through this weird and windy career journey that they might have. So one piece of advice to sort of wrap up our conversation. Pfizer, I'm going to come to you for I think.
Speaker 1Seek out expertise and support. Don't be afraid to go and look for someone who's maybe five years ahead of you. It took me a long time to work out. Actually, I could do that. I could go and find someone who could help me and mentor me, and I think you know, know, think about that. Think about who can really champion you and really champion yourself too. But don't be afraid to go and ask for help and seek support from someone else who might have been there, cut their teeth and can help you on your journey.
Speaker 3Yeah, love that yeah, I mean, suppose, building on that, really don't ever be afraid to ask and don't have that I can't do this on that shoulder, you know have the kind of I can do this, almost that using that phrase imposter syndrome. Yeah, just don't let that be the the noise in your ear all the time. You've got your ambition, you know you've what, where you want to go, you just point yourself at it, ask for help, taking on board what Pfizer just said, and just keep at it.
Speaker 3Yeah, love that yeah, actually it's very similar. What I'm going to say is you know, if you've got your eye on a sector that that really floats your boat, that you absolutely want to get into, don't be put off. Yeah, that it might be difficult or it might not be something that's perhaps, um, seen as friendly to women. Just go for it, because there will be people who can help you. And now you know, dei, diversity, equity, inclusion has come such a long way. Companies have strategies, organizations, you know, want to include you, so go for it. Yeah, don't think, oh, no, couldn't get into that area.
Speaker 3Um, so, yeah, and I think, and I think that's absolutely right, and I think my, my experience is there's never a straight linear path. So I mean a bit like Fen's story, that just isn't. But actually, out of those different paths, so sliding door moments that happen to us all in life, or the crossroads you hit, there will become an opportunity three months later. So it is. It's just accepting that, knowing that now will happen and then going with it when it does. If you don't succeed the first time, you're going to learn from that. Yeah, and then they think of another way and go for it again. And you know, um, yeah, it's being resilient and, just yeah, not giving up on your dream.
Speaker 2No, I love that, thank you, and thank you for being sort of three powerhouses behind these awards, because they are successful, because each of you play such an important role and allow them to allow the team to keep going away and develop it. Thank you, thank you, thanks, golly. Wow, what a convo. I had a feeling that we were going to be able to talk and talk, and I think we probably could have recorded a much longer session for you, but I think for me, what really stood out and I hope you would agree is just each of them talking about their own personal experiences and how they have all, in in their own ways, had to really build up that resilience to be sort of who they are and where they are today, and also, of course, the programs that Fenella mentions that have come through the Princess Royal Training Awards. Please do let us know what you think in the comments below. We would love to have your feedback. You can download and watch this episode on your preferred podcast streaming platform.