City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
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City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
In conversation with...Andrew Pakes MP
This is the time for apprenticeships to fly." Andrew Pakes MP shares his vision for rebuilding Britain's skills system.
In this conversation, Andrew Pakes, MP for Peterborough and Chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Apprenticeships, discusses the critical role of apprenticeships in the UK, with host Kirstie Donnelly MBE. He emphasizes the need for a robust apprenticeship system that aligns with the industrial strategy and addresses the skills gap in the workforce. Andrew shares his personal journey and the importance of social justice in shaping his views on education and employment. The discussion also touches on the challenges faced by small businesses in engaging with the apprenticeship system and the need for cultural change to elevate the status of apprenticeships in society.
To hear Andrew's thoughts on the role of government in skills development, how to address dropout rates in apprenticeships, and innovative ways the farming industry could inspire more SMEs to engage with apprenticeships, listen now.
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Andrew Pakes MP:
This is the time for apprenticeships to fly, so I will be unapologetic in continuing to be optimistic and beat the drum for how we make this part of our national mission.
Kirstie Donnelly, MBE
Welcome to the In Conversation with the podcast, where we sit down with leading voices shaping the future of skills, education and work. I'm Kirstie Donnelly, CEO of City & Girls, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Andrew Pakes, MP for Peterborough and Chair of the All- Party Parliamentary Group on Apprenticeships. Welcome, Andrew.
Andrew Pakes MP:
Welcome. It's lovely to have you with me for this afternoon talking about my favourite subject apprenticeships.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Brilliant Well, we're definitely going to get into that for sure. Andrew, you have indeed been one of what we call the trailblazer MPs in the 2024 cohort of 330 something newbies coming in.
Andrew Pakes MP:
There was a big herd of new MPs arriving in Westminster last July.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Did you all come in at once through the gate, so to speak?
Andrew Pakes MP:
Yeah, the strange thing about it was I was elected about five o'clock on a Friday morning. I was in Parliament on the Saturday. The wheels of democracy just keep turning.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Well, very good, but you've also been, as we know, a champion of workers' rights, skills development and creating opportunities for all. You've been at the heart of apprenticeships for some time now, engaging extensively, particularly with apprenticeships themselves. But if you were going to be an apprenticeship, what would you do?
Andrew Pakes MP:
Oh, that's a really interesting question. So I come from a long line of apprentices in the rail industry and the car industry and what I find really fascinating about life opportunities in three generations my family's gone from working in a blacksmith's to me now being a member of parliament, being an apprentice myself eight months into my journey as a member of parliament, being an apprentice myself eight months into my journey as a member of parliament and a young legislator in terms of my length of tenure. So I think I'd definitely say things around the apprenticeship my brother did as a sheet metal worker and a welder. My granddad was a boiler maker All of those great, brilliant skills actually. That's what my mum would call a decent apprenticeship in those skills. And I think when you look at the things we need in this country to achieve the big missions this new government set out, we need engineers, we need people who make things. So I think that's that's what I'd go for.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Well, that's great, that's music to our ears here at City & Guilds and being all about the vocational and technical route. So great to hear that. So what did make you interested in politics and becoming an MP? Because, as you say, coming from the legacy and history that you have through your family, you've chosen quite a different route.
Andrew Pakes MP:
I've come from a very similar route in many ways in that I come from a family that believed in taking social action and to me that was really important and I think that sense of purpose that we're here on this earth to do good, has been really instilled into me, that sense of social justice, and I suppose it gets into why I care about apprenticeships as one policy in that bigger vision of how do we make a better world for working class people. In that I think the sense of the social contract that my parents' generation had, that as working class parents they could work hard so that me and my brother could have a better life and get on and do a different kind of job. And that's what got me into higher education, gave me the confidence to stand for parliament, get involved.
There are too many people that social contract's broken. When I go out and do surgeries in Peterborough or knock on doors, people just tell you that it feels like the country's broken life is harder. People fear that however hard they work, their children won't be able to get a better job, won't be able to get on the housing ladder. I think we're in a real inflection point for our democracy about how do we make change happen and how do working class communities like those I represent feel that government is a force for good and we bring about positive change in the world.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
I think that's absolutely right. But actually just reflecting on that point about, is the world harder? I mean, I often reflect on that in my own environment and what I do as a job, and it does feel that it is harder because talent is everywhere but opportunity isn't necessarily. And of course, apprenticeships are about trying to lift that opportunity, isn't it?
Andrew Pakes MP:
Absolutely. We're seeing this pull apart between those people born into wealth and opportunity that already exists. You've seen the acceleration of skills, the big economies in some of our largest cities, and then you look to places like mine where we've seen some of the good skilled jobs disappear. We've gone from manufacturing into a service-based economy or now a warehousing economy, if you mind and those things bring with them this growth in low-paid, insecure work and to me, apprenticeships is a really important part of having that conversation about what does a good job look like, how do we get people onto the ladder of opportunity and how to get them to get a sense of pride back.
I think Peterborough is a really proud city and the kind of working class background I came from saw great pride in the jobs people did that you could go to the pub on a Friday night. You were contributing to something. You could tell your friends and neighbours about the skills you had and the things you were building, and largely we've lost that in too many parts of the country. So I'm a huge supporter of apprenticeships as a way of getting people into good trades and when you think of the challenges the country has today about building some of this major infrastructure, getting a million and a half homes built including many more council houses, in my view and social housing. When we talk about, you know, environmental infrastructure we need. We talk about an industrial strategy. The thread that runs for all of those is having homegrown talent and building the skills we need for individuals to succeed, but for the country to succeed as well no, absolutely.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
I think you've been quoted as saying let's make our apprenticeship system truly the world's envy. We absolutely, at City & Guilds, would share that aspiration, Andrew, but I think we're probably quite a long way from that. What's your view of that and what do we need to do to get to realising your vision?
Andrew Pakes MP:
Yeah, it's really interesting. I did a BBC TV show a few weeks ago with Robert Halfon, who is the skills minister TV show a few weeks ago with Robert Halfon, who is the Skills Minister. So I think, underlying this, the creation of the apprenticeship levy was a good starting point to try and give focus back in the system. Where we failed as a country is we had the apprenticeship levy. It was a bit clunky but essentially we didn't have an industrial strategy. It didn't link to the jobs market, it didn't link to purpose within our economy and to me, if we want to something which is about world-class envy, we're going to have it part of the industrial strategy, part of growing the economy in itself. So it's not just an academic exercise in learning a new trade, it's about industrial purpose it's targeted and focused in that absolutely that's why I think it's really important in the move to the grade from skills levy, the creation of Skills England.
All of these things are closely aligned to industrial strategy and understanding. Where we want to build good jobs, we need a good pipeline of great talent to be able to sit behind that, and that largely means rebuilding our industrial or manufacturing base, you know, in all parts of the country. I think it's fascinating I always think of sitting where I do in Peterborough that you've got in one small county a global city in Cambridge, which has some of the highest innovation in the world, and that's right and proper. But half an hour away you've got Peterborough, where we've got one in three people in work in some of the most chronically insecure, zero-hours contract jobs that the country has known.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Yeah, close that disparity. Well, you touched on the levy and I was going to mention that because, of course, there's a lot of heat around the levy. And I was going to mention that because, of course, there's a lot of heat around the levy itself and, as you say, it's intention being the right intention, but how's it actually manifested itself on the ground, so to speak? And of course, we hear a lot about the estimated 800 million gap that there is between that which employees pay into the levy and and that which government has set out in their budget, and of there's a lot of desire to sway Treasury, to focus more of that money back and drive that resources back into apprenticeships. What's your take on that? Absolutely.
Andrew Pakes MP:
We're eight months into a government. We're coming with huge ambitions around apprenticeships and I think we've made a really good start, I think, getting the legislation through. I spoke a couple of weeks ago in the second reading about the creation of Skills England, the legislative a couple of weeks ago in the second reading about the creation of Skills England's legislative framework, the jigsaw pieces on the table. I think if we can get to the point where we transition from an apprenticeship levy to the growth and skills levy, we can get Skills England working with the department, with employers, with providers, to create some sense of urgency around this mission. I think that will address some of these questions around funding and I know we've probably come on to some of the difficult choices government needs to make because this isn't a never-ending pot of money. This is about the language of priorities within government. I think we have to be open about some of the challenges within that.
But to me, some of the early speed at which legislation has come forward is really important the willingness to work with the sectors and industrial base we need, such as the relaxation of academic to functional English and maths, which I personally think is really important in work ready English and maths to get people into jobs quickly, doing the work we need the country to do.
The conversations around some of the flexibilities we could have whether it's shorter term friendship models, whether it's the foundation apprenticeships to give people almost like a kind of pre-work apprenticeship model I think it's really important To me. The next stages need to flesh out more what that partnership looks like. The things that employers would share with me quite often when I'm out doing visits to them is around the sense that the whether we call them frameworks or standards the, the rigor needs to be flexible enough and rapid enough that when new standards and frameworks being designed, they reflect the world of work yeah so I'd like to see some flexibility within the overall structure so that as skills change and the economy changes, we can be at the leading edge of that rather than playing catch-up.
Absolutely, I'm really interested in how we bring to life the sense that the primary purpose of the levy is still apprenticeships, but also there is some sense that people, mid-career or as technologies change within industries, that some of this could be used to pump prime, that almost CPD yeah, that shorter scale intervention and that flexibility feels like it's the right space to be in, rather than saying to people you need to drop out, take 18 months to relearn a new skill, and I think that as long as it's got the apprenticeship DNA in it, I'll be really happy with that. As long as it's got the apprenticeship DNA in it, I'll be really happy with that. Most of all, I'm just pleased as punch to be working alongside Baroness Smith Jacqui Smith, who I think is one of the biggest hitters in this new government and it's a real sense of the government's priorities that one of her key tasks has been around skills, adult education and really begin to fix this apprenticeship model.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Yeah, no, I mean I think we would certainly agree that the minister's definitely been in listening mode and it's certainly coming through in terms of what's coming out now in terms of outputs. So I think, like all of this, it's trying to get the detail at a more grassroots level as to how we make this work. I suppose I sensed a real optimism as you were speaking then about everything that's still before us. When it comes to that detail and you still feel quite optimistic, then there will be room within the skills and growth levy. When we do get the detail for that more flexible, shorter intervention, as long as, as you said, it's got the DNA around it of an apprenticeship, is that kind of how you would capture it?
Andrew Pakes MP:
I'm hugely optimistic about where we're heading.
I mean, I can understand some of these anxiety because we're not designing policy from scratch.
We're trying to rebuild the plane mid flight and that does take some time to do it with care and, I think, all the right signals I'd expect from government we've seen already the level of engagement is palpable compared to what I experienced prior to being elected. Businesses, providers, learners all of that work coming together is really, really important in terms of getting this right for the long term, because I suppose, like many of your listeners, I've been around skills long enough, where that every three to five years we create a new body and do it again. So I'm really interested in how do we do this for the long term. I think it's really powerful that this is being talked about by the Prime Minister, by the Chancellor, across government. It's not just a DfE initiative and it's clearly linked to industrial or economic purpose. Yeah, because there is none of these missions that we're setting out as a government can be achieved if you don't have a people plan. And you don't have a people plan, let's say of a skills plan.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Yeah, and it has to be underpinned by skills. And I was interested in what you said about it being cross-government and you definitely get that sense being a sort of outsider, if I can call myself that, looking in. But I think also it's about how do we make it cross-party. How do we make it cross-party? Because I think you just touched on something very important Every three to five to seven years there's some machinery government that comes in that forms a new institute or takes another one away. But really what we want is a long-term cross-party vision for what we need from our skills strategy, surely to support apprenticeships.
Andrew Pakes MP:
Yeah, and that's why I said I was really pleased to be able to have a conversation on-air but off off air with Robert Halford and hope to meet him again soon to continue learning some of the thinking he gave. Around that, I think there's a number of things we need. I think we need to elevate apprenticeships in our skills story and economic story for the long term. I still think one of the big challenges we have is that too often this is seen as a Cinderella sector we've had to higher education system or other parts of that. I think that's partly a snobbery. I think we've created a natural bias in our skills environment For HE, for HE for university pathways. One of the big things in our manifesto that we've talked about, which needs to go alongside this, is the reinvention of careers advice and dedicated career support in schools so that young people have that choice around what works for them and what, where their passions lie in the schools they can do. But we've also got to talk about the dominance in our media are of, you know, a level results day, graduation day, mortarboard. We don't have a national celebration or national recognition of apprenticeships in the same way we do degrees. And to me, that cultural argument of how do we change it. When you think most people in decision making have come for a traditional higher education approach, there is a natural bias and there's nothing wrong with that, because university is absolutely right and brilliant for so many people. But I think we don't acknowledge the natural bias in our decision making towards university, because that's the lived experience most of us been through. And how do we change that?
So one of the big things I always make sure is when I go and do my visits either in Peterborough or across the country and businesses invite me is I will say yes as long as I can meet their learners at the same time. Yeah, from boardroom to shop floor. I want to have that shared conversation about how do, how do young people or career changers find out about these options what worked for them or didn't work for them through school or others to get matched up to the kind of apprenticeship opportunity they have? How do employers work with schools better? How do employers work with parents? Because actually one of the barriers in some professions parents often think apprenticeships are second class to degrees because they think it's dirty overalls as opposed to high tech. Now there's some brilliant jobs in dirty overalls. So I'm not knocking dirty overalls at all, but if people's perception is they're jobs of the past, we're going to make this jobs of the future, absolutely.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
We only have to look at now how many jobs you can do an apprenticeship in. That's one of the fantastic things that has happened over the last seven years. The range of jobs that you can do an apprenticeship but assuming the opportunities are there, employers are making them available. It's just phenomenal now. I mean, when I was coming out of school and making my choices there just weren't those choices. You couldn't do animal management, you couldn't become an airline pilot, you couldn't do chocolatiering. The range is phenomenal. We tend to still think of apprenticeships as being, as you say, in those trades and they're really important that we carry on thinking of them being in those trades. But there's a whole plethora now of opportunity. As long as we can unlock using the levy or whatever means, we can unlock opportunities through those employers.
Andrew Pakes MP:
Absolutely, and I've been blown away both with the learners and apprentices I've met, but also the employers, particularly the smaller engineering companies and employers in my patch in Peterborough but in other places who are passionate about paying it forward, giving the next generation or giving people a second chance. I've just been discussing earlier prison education and how do we give people better learning experiences within prison, generation or giving people a second chance. I've just been discussing earlier prison education and how do we give people better learning experiences within prison so they really get a chance to have that second chance when they come out. And you know it works so well for so many of the challenges we face about building, making, delivering things in our country. This is the time for apprenticeships to fly, so I will be unapologetic in continuing to be optimistic and beat the drum for how we make this part of our national mission.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Well, that's exactly what we need, Andrew. We're delighted to hear that. And just talking on prisons slight sort of sidetrack, but a really important one If you want to see how to do exactly what you just said, come and visit the work we're doing at HMP High Point, because that is phenomenal where we've got, inside the prison gates, actual training centres, training what are still offenders because they're still inside the prison walls, but literally employers then lining up outside ready to take those now ex-offenders on into work. And that's actually the power of more flexible contracting, such as skills boot camps. That's where they have worked incredibly well and I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater as we continue to look at evolving policy.
Andrew Pakes MP:
Yeah, I think the boot camp, structured work experience and the really powerful illustration you've just given to how we can give opportunity and flexibility to offenders in prison to give them a chance to play a role in society when they come out to earn and have some dignity and pride about their lives moving forward, help productivity, help productivity. For me as a Labour politician, people in better jobs pay taxes legitimately. That gives the government the opportunity to have tax returns to invest in fixing the NHS or improving systems. So it's a win-win Absolutely.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
We said earlier we'd come back to some of those really hard choices, because, of course, all of this is fantastic and, as you say, it's important we keep on the level, on being optimistic about what can be achieved through apprenticeships. But of course, there isn't a bottomless pit of money and we know that hard choices have to be made, and one of those hard choices has already been made around level seven, apprenticeships and cutting that, although, again, we still don't know the detail. But what are your views on the pending move to remove level seven from apprenticeship funding, given I think it equates to about 9% of the apprenticeship budget?
Andrew Pakes MP:
I get the anxiety people are feeling. I've had some good presentations, I've met some level of several apprentices and some employers and I've seen the benefit it gives. But in the bigger story, one of the greatest shames of the last decade has been the decline in apprenticeship starts. If you strip level 7 out of that. The decline's been even greater in level 2 and 3. So do I think it's right. The government is having a razor-like focus on level 2, 3 and 4, the engine room. I think absolutely that's right, because there is no economic liberation for this country without boosting level two, three and four, and that does mean there's some difficult choices. I think the government is listening. I think in some professions and industries there may be a case around how you do this, but I think there's also a bigger story about how business invests in training and support. In some elements we've allowed the apprenticeship levy to become a proxy for training budgets Right, yeah, and we've got to work out how to become a proxy for training budgets, right.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Yeah.
Andrew Pakes MP:
And we've got to work out how to have that conversation as well. And that's not picking individual companies or other. I think at an economic level, if you went to visit natural competitors in Sweden or Germany or Switzerland or France, they would have a training budget and be spending much more on training their workforce and they'd have apprenticeships.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Yeah, no, there's data to support that.
Andrew Pakes MP:
I think we've somehow allowed it to become it's apprenticeships or nothing, and I think we've got to understand how do we build training into our long-term productivity and business model and economic model as well as support apprenticeships. So I get there's some difficulty. Let's see how things play out, but I think the razor-like focus on two and levels two, three and I'd always put four in that as well um, that's the right focus.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Yep yep, as I said, there's lots of data out there that does support that. We are definitely lagging behind in terms of our investment, as employers, into training outside of the apprenticeship system. So I think you make a very fair point, but I suppose, on that though I mean, we are also a country that's very much reliant on our small and medium-sized companies and organisations. They're the backbone, really, of our prosperity and growth. Do you think we do need to look quite differently, though, at how we engage small and medium-sized employees into the apprenticeship system?
Andrew Pakes MP:
Yeah, I think I'm really interested in how do we make that work and I'm really open to seeing more practical examples or solutions around that, because I think it's always going to be difficult because if you're a big company and you've got hr processes, industrial relations, training, support staff and you've got the breadth of your staff complement, it's easier to see how you can take someone off the shop floor for a learning experience or someone can be mentored at work. So it's always going to be difficult if you're a small company of 5, 6, 6, 15, 20 people and we shouldn't pretend otherwise, because actually we want employers to know they're paying into the system not just through money but through that mentorship and on-the-job training as well how do we bridge those two things? I think it's a really fascinating question and something I hope that we can keep shaping with the government how we get that right. I'm really praised by some of the farmers I've met around small businesses on farms where they can give someone part of an experience but may not be able to give the whole experience. How can you work with providers to create almost a coalition experience where a group of employers can work together and someone could get the experience from different parts of their cycle.
I'm really interested in almost the modularity of. Can people take modules of learning if they meet the standard and then perhaps if they move on to another employer or another thing, they can then pick up. So that kind of accredited learning as you go through. Yeah, well, I'm just a linear model of no, I think that's right you do those things and you're hinting.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
There is something that could actually be featured in the design of the foundation apprenticeships. Actually, I mean, couldn't it? She says. I mean, is that not how? A foundation apprenticeship could work.
Andrew Pakes MP:
I think sometimes we see absence of news, as is the government thinking has the government got a plan?
I think we're actually in a phase still where the government is open to people helping shape what that plan is people helping shape what that plan is, and I would very much hope the signals we've had very clearly from the government about flexibility, about wanting to work with SMEs, about getting this right for the long term, give us the space to try and shape how this thing will work in practice. But the more we can see practical examples of what does work or could work for small businesses, the easier it is to influence government.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
No, absolutely, and of course, one of the challenges that we've got in apprenticeships you've talked before about participation rates, but also dropout has also been an issue. I think it's been as high as 47% historically. So I suppose that is a challenge in itself and therefore how we support employers through the different policies to help strategize how they support those apprentices, especially in small, medium-sized environments where they don't necessarily have lots of employees to fall back on to do the mentoring or the coaching or the extra support needed, especially for younger apprentices.
Andrew Pakes MP:
Absolutely, and I think part of this is having better data so we can understand how and what is happening. Some people might be dropping out because they've actually just got the job or been promoted. Some people are dropping out because it's not working for them. Some people might be dropping out because it's not working for the employer or the provider. So, understanding a more granular level so we can be better at policymaking or shaping this is really really important in this space as well.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Brilliant and Andrew you said right at the beginning, I asked you what would you be if you could be an apprentice all over again and you gave some really great examples, including the fact you are now serving your apprenticeship mp. I'm sure you're doing very well on your employee assessment but, joking apart, I mean in, I suppose, 20 seconds or so. How would you describe your time in parliament? So far?
Andrew Pakes MP:
Oh, that's a really tough question, but the best thing about being an MP is being able to go behind the net curtains of so many walks of life in Peterborough and nationally, and the privilege I've been given in apprenticeships has been to meet employers, providers and learners time and again. I think I've done something like over 130 visits since I've been elected Amazing. And every meeting powers me up for the next round of engagement of how we make this better for all of us.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Well, andrew, I have to say if I wasn't already a passionate advocate of apprenticeships, I definitely would be after this interview. Thank you so much for joining me and having this podcast and sharing some of your own personal insights, but also your ambitions for creating that very visionary apprenticeship system that we all want to aspire to. And best to look in your work in Peterborough and as an MP.
Andrew Pakes MP:
Brilliant and thank you for giving me a moment to get on my hobby horse and ride out there about the brilliance of our apprentices, but also how we can make it even better for everyone brilliant.
Kirstie Donnelly MBE:
Thank you, Andrew, thank you.