Redefining Engineering for the AI Era

Dirty Hands or Digital Minds? Redefining Engineering for the AI Era

The UK’s engineering sector is at a crossroads—facing a critical skills shortage, rapid technological advancements, and an aging workforce. In this Future Skills mini-series, we dive into the urgent need for a more agile qualification system, stronger employer engagement, and improved careers guidance to bridge the gap between education and industry.

Our expert guests, Rhys Morgan (Royal Academy of Engineering) and Becky Ridler (Not Just Girls), join hosts Bryony Kingsland (City & Guilds) & Gavin O’Meara (FE News) to explore:

 🔹 Why engineering education remains fragmented—and how we can fix it
 🔹 The importance of modular, responsive qualifications that keep pace with industry needs
 🔹 The diversity challenge in STEM—women make up just 16% of the workforce, and representation matters
 🔹 How post-pandemic skills deficits, particularly in communication and workplace readiness, are affecting young engineers
 🔹 What employers and educators must do now to prepare for the future of engineering

Whether you're an employer, educator, policymaker, or future engineer, this episode unpacks practical solutions to one of the UK’s most pressing workforce challenges.

📢 Listen now and be part of the conversation shaping the future of skills.

For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:

• Skills England
• Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education
• Lifelong Learning Entitlement overview
• Making Skills Work: The Path to Solving the Productivity Crisis - report

Listen today, or watch on YouTube.

Transcript

Rhys Morgan

00:00
There's just a complete lack of knowledge, and part of the challenge there is that engineering is not a subject that's taught in schools. It kind of sits in a bit of science, a bit of maths, a bit of computing and a bit of d and t.

Gavin O'Meara

Hi welcome to future skills, a brand new season that we're doing with City & Guilds. 
My name is Gavin O'Mara, I'm the CEO and founder of FE News and my co-host is Bryony. 

Bryony Kingsland

Hi, I'm Bryony Kingsland and I'm the Funding and Policy Insight Lead at City &  Guilds. 

Gavin O'Meara

Today we're going to be looking at engineering solutions. Engineering is kind of key for what we're going to be doing, not just in the nature of the skills and things like that, but it's also fundamental for what we're going to be doing around every episode actually so. 

Bryony Kingsland

This is the first episode of our new series, future Skills, and over the next six live video events we'll be diving into the skill shortages affecting different sectors critical to the UK's economic success. 

So this is for training providers, it's for employers, anyone interested or involved in engineering. 

And recently City & Guilds carried out some research and produced a report called Making Skills Work the Path to Solving the Productivity Crisis. 

That report highlighted an urgent need to rethink how we upskill and reskill the UK workforce to meet the evolving needs and demands of the various sectors. It also revealed that fewer than half of working age adults feel they have left education with the right skills for their careers or that they have the right skills for their careers now or their future career, and 91% of CEOs identified that building their workforce skills is crucial for boosting productivity. So all of that emphasises the need for a more coordinated approach to bridging the skills gap. So we've got a wonderful panel of sector experts with us today who are going to explore with us the contributing factors to this and also potentially look at some practical solutions to address the skills challenges currently faced in the UK. So stay tuned so we can look at how we can improve skills and drive productivity and create more opportunities in the UK. So stay tuned so we can look at how we can improve skills and drive productivity and create more opportunities across the country. 

Gavin O'Meara

Yeah, no, thank you, Bryony, and it's really interesting as well around looking at today. Yeah, we've got spending review. We've had like a couple of sneak peeks on what's going to be announced with 600 million for construction and construction skills. But how about the infrastructure to better get the, get the civil engineers to be able to get the roads to those one and a half billion houses? I mean, we've got a sneak peek on the spending that's going to be done around defense, which hopefully we never have to realize, but that's going to be everything from electrical, mechanical, rf engineers stress engineers, not stressed out engineers. It's really really key around engineering. 

Next week we're looking at ai and digital. Ai and digital doesn't exist without cooling, heat and vent for those data sensors, for the small modular reactors that have got to be designed and developed through to, again, rf engineers around how we're all connected now with, with broadband and and and the such. So today's really key. We've talked enough, let's bring in our guests. So we've got two really cool guests. We've got Rhys Morgan and Becky Riddler. Rhys, can I bring you into the studio? Hey, rhys, how are you? 

Rhys Morgan

Good morning Gavin, good morning Bryony. I've got my coffee, I'm ready to go. You're ready to go. 

Gavin O'Meara

Becky. 

Becky Ridler

Hello

Bryony Kingsland

Hey thank you for joining us. Hi Rhys, Hi Becky. So we've got some questions, obviously linked to what's happening in the country, linked to the future developments, and one of those key points that we've been discussing and talking about, not just with you but also right across the sector, is how engineering organisations should prepare for the rapid advances in automation, digital technology and AI, because those things are here but also they're developing, and engineering is a really key aspect of those rapid advances. So how should engineering organizations prepare for the rapid advances that are happening with digital and AI? Rhys. 

Rhys Morgan

03:53
I'll kick off. So I think what's really fascinating about the kind of digital and AI kind of challenge is we have some kind of fundamental skills that needs to kind of underpin these new technologies, and I think they'll always be there. So new technologies will come and they'll increasingly develop at a kind of greater rate and a greater pace over the coming decades, but there will be kind of fundamentals that always need to be there. We have a real shortage of electronics technicians and AT network technicians. You mentioned RF engineers and those kinds of things. 

04:29
When you really start to get under the skin of quantum computing, you do need thermal engineers, thermal control engineers, vibration isolation engineers and technicians. And people just kind of look at the big shiny bit at the top, which is all the kind of quantum physics bit. It is all underpinned by fairly standard high quality technical skills and we're just not creating enough of those right across the economy, whether it's in net zero transition or these kind of advanced technologies. So I think we will still need those fundamental skills. I think the really key thing for me is that we need a qualification system and a regulator that is flexible enough to enable agility in qualifications, so we're not spending four or five years developing new qualifications. Actually, micro qualifications should be developed within a few months out into the market and they might only last 18 months, two years, because the technology will have moved on. So we need that agility in the system to enable those qualifications to match the technologies. 

Bryony Kingsland

05:31
Rhys, in addition to that, and Becky, you might want to jump in on this Do you think that from a careers advice and guidance point of view, there is a good enough understanding out there in schools and colleges a good enough understanding out there in schools and colleges, but also in the careers advice and guidance offer that we've got that understands? Because I mean, I think a lot of people still think of engineering as being a bit of a dirty job, but actually increasingly, as you've just pointed out, engineering, some of the roles that are appearing in engineering and developing engineering, are incredibly interesting. What's your view on the careers advice and guidance offer that's out there? Do you think it's comprehensive and knowledgeable enough about the developments? 

Rhys Morgan

06:09
Becky, do you want to have a go? 

Becky Ridler

06:10
yeah. So with this, one is a key point that not just girls looks at. A lot with the students that we help mentor when we go into schools was finding the main issues that the careers advisors aren't informed. A lot of the time these careers advisors pushing the typical route. So engineering is hands on, mechanical. They're not talking about the sub-levels that go into engineering. 

06:27
So you have obviously, for me, a big problem with girls wanting to go into engineering. They don't want to get their hands dirty, they don't want to be building stuff. They still want to be involved but they're not sure how. And I think we need to build a comprehensive guide for these careers advisors, for parents, the kind of the whole adult support system that students have to give them a better understanding of what different areas are engineering. It's not always wearing a border suit, getting on the floor, getting dirty, being covered in oil. It's very much hands-on. It can be digital, it can be project management. There are so many different aspects there, especially with the rise of ai and technology at the moment, that engineers aren't just hands-on anymore and I think until those careers advisors and parents and carers are aware of all those different areas of engineering, you're leaving the students at that stuck point because they want to go into engineering but they're not sure of kind of the paths or the different disciplines available. And I think that's where the real bottleneck is coming from. 

Rhys Morgan

07:16
Can I jump in there as well? So at the Royal Academy of Engineering we've looked into the kind of careers education a lot and what our research suggests is there's not a negative perception of engineers, there's just a complete lack of knowledge. And part of the challenge there is that engineering is not a subject that's taught in schools. It kind of sits in a bit of science, a bit of maths, a bit of computing and a bit of D&T. But I think there's just a real lack of understanding among teachers about what engineering is, so they can't talk about it in a kind of inspiring, engaging way to their pupils because they just don't know about it themselves. So I think it's not just about the careers education but it's how you embed that careers education into subjects, because the subject teachers are the people who can really bring things to life for the pupils. 

Becky Ridler

08:03
I think with that as well, Rhys, just to jump in, is that falls a lot on employers. 

08:09
So a lot of the time employers know what skill set they want for their employees, they know the skill sets for the projects and they're complaining that the students don't have the skills or not aware of their area but they won't be in schools teaching about them. 

08:20
And you know we can only rely on teachers so much to do kind of the basic curriculum, let alone go into the different levels of disciplines, whereas the employers that specialise in their disciplines have the resource, have the knowledge, have the materials to go and teach it. I think the curriculum needs to allow for more space for employers to interact with those students to help kind of fill that gap there. I was talking to kind of a careers advisor at school the other day and they said the curriculum is too full to allow employers in and that's a fundamental problem wrong with the curriculum, because if we can't let employers in to talk about the skills and the disciplines that we have and the teachers cannot be trained in them because it's ever growing, you're stuck in this catch-22 of students can't find out, employers want to help but there's no space to do so yeah, definitely it was. 

Gavin O'Meara

08:59
UTC movement was kind of key for engineering around trying to incorporate industry and into to work. I had one of the kids in the UTC and stuff around engineering and it's just sort of getting that employer sort of engagement. Really I want to bring james in. He's been firing questions in thick and thin in life. Actually, james, you anticipate one of my questions around talk of industry 4.0 and we're talking about 5.0 and also around engineering and vocational bodies, co-creating adaptive, inclusive skills frameworks. James also is said around good careers advice and guidance. But james, you've fired in so many. It's just cover one, I think. The whole thing around the changes that we've seen in apprenticeships and technical education how can we address the skills gaps in engineering? How can we work collaboratively to deliver those? Um race, don't know if you want to jump in on to that yeah. 

Rhys Morgan

So it was interesting what happened with a fate and the employers driving apprenticeship standards, because that was for the first time I felt a real engagement between employers and government, albeit a kind of non-departmental body, to set skill standards. And of course T-levels are based on those occupational standards that come from those employer-designed standards, so we can see it working. But I think we need more flexibility in there as well, because of course City & Guilds delivers the engineering manufacturing T-level standard but you know that's kind of fixed now for the next five years or wherever it might be. How do we build in flexibility and agility into that? 

10:32
Because technology is changing so fast we need awarding organizations to be able to adapt and change those qualifications to fit the new technologies that are coming. So when the T-level engineering and manufacturing was being tended for, ai wasn't really a thing, and now we've had this massive acceleration and it's not in the T-level engineering manufacturing was being tended for, ai wasn't really a thing, and now we've had this massive acceleration and it's not in the T-level. Now colleges will put it in there. But actually how do we get it so that there's a much more kind of agile adaptive system that enables both employers and government and the regulator all to work more closely and more flexibly so that people can keep up to speed with the technology change. 

Gavin O'Meara

11:11
Becky, anything you want to be able to add in around how we can address those gaps in engineering. 

Becky Ridler

11:16
So I'm hoping, obviously with IfATE being kind of the reform of the skills England at the moment that they're going to bring in a forum basically for employers to have that quick say with how fast the skills are developing at the moment and the need for AI. There needs to be a forum or a means of communication for employers to go look, we need this standard, it needs to have these qualifications and these skills in it. We need a quick turnaround with the reduction of the minimum rate of apprenticeships. That's a positive step towards that and I think the skills England need to work with those employers to make sure that that communication still works. You know it's great reducing the apprenticeships down, but it wasn't the means of getting them out quickly. 

• 
  

11:50
You're still stuck in that loop of the t-level that reese mentioned. It came out and aria wasn't mentioned to it, and how long will that t-level then take to reform, to get the eye into it? By that point will there be a new technology that needs to be included? So that needs to be kind of a thing I think skillsing the need to focus on is that employer forum. How can we get those qualifications to them so they can get qualified quicker? 

Rhys Morgan

12:10
Just picking up on James's other question about. All the talk is on industry 4.0, you were moving to industry 5.0. I think what's interesting here is the vast majority of engineering companies in this country are SMEs and they're just looking at a six-month time horizon. They're looking at the cash flow to be able to pay their wages at the end of the month. They're not thinking about what does the technology look like in the next three to five years? So it is about employees, but it's also about other sector organizations as well, whether that's organizations like the Royal Academy of Engineering or the Turing Institute that looks after AI, because they're the organizations that are looking forward and I think you have to have those. The Catapult, high value manufacturing Catapult and other organizations like that. You need those in the loop as well, because they're the ones that are doing that technology foresighting. 

Bryony Kingsland

13:01
What you said earlier on, Rhys, I think is also really key and I don't know what your thoughts are about this. But you mentioned the sort of more modular approach or maybe bolt-on qualifications or short sharp courses that enable someone who's already got that broad engineering background to be able to add on additional skills and knowledge as those new technologies appear. And we've heard about the growth and skills levy and obviously we don't know what that's going to look like yet. We don't know how that's going to work, but do you think that is going to be going forward, a real need, Because actually things will move so fast that small bolt-on qualifications or maybe not even qualifications, just learning programmes that enable people to upskill quickly do you think they're going to have a really strong place in future learning programmes or a future need for learning programmes? 

Rhys Morgan

13:43
Yeah, I think they will, and I think I'm probably not going to have many fans when I say this, but you know, I think the government's idea of removing level seven apprenticeship qualifications from public funding is probably a good thing, because you don't need to put someone on a level seven apprenticeship. They probably just need some short duration qualifications, like micro qualifications, that last two to three months, six months, to get them up to speed with whatever new technology that the company's being adopting and that lends itself to micro-qualifications. I think apprenticeships they're competency-based qualifications. They should be long duration and they don't fit that kind of modular approach. So let's not try and fit everything into apprenticeships. I think the growth and skill levy of flexibility of funding for different types of qualifications is the right way to go and I hope that will encourage and stimulate more businesses to invest in their workforce upskilling. 

Becky Ridler

14:36
Yeah, so I think for me. 

14:37
So I did a digital and technical apprenticeship to get my degree and it was very much a case of when I first applied to it and first started it was very relevant. 

14:45
Now, four, four years later, the skills aren't the same anymore. You know, the skills I was being taught that were new and edging and cutting are the basic monday, day-to-day running, and I think if I had the option during that of those bolt ones that reese mentioned of this is something that quickly came out. You know, here's six months of assessment, competency development on this to do during my apprenticeship or when I finish, that would have been amazing because I would have a base level qualification with those skills add on, you know, having that skill in generative AI or whatever that technology is, alongside the qualification that my apprenticeship gave me, would have put me in a much better position in industry, whereas at the moment, yes, I have a degree in a relatively filled, but those skills for AI and, like I was talking about the next generation of industry, we don't have and, apart from doing YouTube videos and informal qualifications, there's no skills or bolt-on qualifications at the moment yet to fundalise that and kind of put that official stamp on it. 

Bryony Kingsland

15:39
And yet we've got that really fast moving skills sort of taxonomy happening at the moment with a real need for the current workforce to upskill on a regular basis. With a real need for the current workforce to upskill on a regular basis and actually the best and most probably cost-effective way of doing that is with the sort of small bolt-on modular type qualifications. Yeah, I know we've got the lifelong learning entitlement coming at us, but it's not until 2027 and a lot of the qualifications in those they're looking at 300 guided learning hours, which I think is possibly too big for some of the offer. They really need to be something much more agile, as Rhys has said and as you've said, becky Becky, I mean going into that and sort of like taking it further.

• 
  

16:19
At the moment, women only make up 16% of the UK STEM workforce and we've got this shortage of engineers in the country. We know that we've got ageing workforce of engineers in the country and that a lot of it coming up retirement in the next 10 years. If we're really going to meet the needs of the STEM workforce and engineering, how are we going to help the sector? Or how should the sector work to improve inclusion and representation of women and all minorities in STEM workforce going forward. 

Becky Ridler

16:48
I think the big thing for this inclusion and diversity comes down to a simple thing you can't be what you can't see. A lot of the students I go to and talk to at schools and I mentor. When they look up and say they want to do engineering, I go great, what's stopping you getting there? They go, but we don't exist. It's kind of like what do you mean? You don't exist. I'm a female engineer exist, I'm a female engineer. I'm talking to you. But whenever they go to careers fairs or work experience or companies come and talk to them, they don't see themselves in those roles. It's always I hate to sterilize but it's a white man attending, because that's what the stereotype is in engineering. So you have these young girls or people in those diversity with protective characteristics, not seeing themselves. They just assume that they people like them have tried but failed, and that's a really negative thing. 

17:27
I know one of the first talks I did in school. I had a bunch of 12 and 14 year old girls come up to me asking me how I became an engineer. I went to college, I did engineering, I did an apprenticeship and I, you know, got a degree in engineering. But then they go. How well. 

• 
  

17:40
I went to college, I got my engineering qualifications. I don't quite understand they didn't get it because I was female and they hadn't seen any other female engineers. And that put me in that position where, whether I liked it or not, I realized I was a role model for those students and I had a position of power that I had to share to showcase them that we can and I think that's a big thing companies need to work on. It's not just going kind of rolling out your diversity people for those certain events, but showcasing them all year round. You know, hitting those markers. You can ask young kids to join engineering in diversity kind of backgrounds. You don't have the representation in your company already. I think that's a key thing employers need to put more effort towards. 

Gavin O'Meara

18:17
Rhys any views on that at all around how to increase diversity in STEM and engineering? Yeah, yeah. 

Rhys Morgan

18:23
So you know, I think we have to really see this as a complex systems challenge. It starts in school but it does happen. It does go right through into industry as well. So we do so. Just picking up on Becky's point, there you see subject choices being made at age 14 around GCSE. Last year out of 300,000. So that's just 5% of girls doing computer science GCSE. You know one of the subjects that leads to engineering. You look at physics at A level just 9,000 girls took A level physics. That's 3% of the entire female cohort. 

19:03
So there are some really fundamental issues that we need to address down in the school system and it probably goes all the way back to primary school and, as Becky says, you know, getting girls to understand that they are perfectly capable and able to do engineering and have role models. 

• 
  

19:19
But if we skip forward right up into the workforce as well, we see a greater attrition of women from engineering, construction and IT companies than across all sectors. So engineering has a problem of inclusivity in the workforce and whether that's because they're just not coming back after career breaks or they're just leaving because they don't like the culture. So we can't just externalize the issue and say it's all about schools. There are some challenging cultures in the engineering sector that need addressing and that then points the finger back at employers to say, what are you doing to retain women and other underrepresented groups in your workforce? Because we can't just say, oh it's, we just need more girls to come through, because actually girls are probably looking at those employers going do you know what? I don't think I want to work there anyway. So we have to address the cultures in the workforce as well. 

Gavin O'Meara

20:10
I think that's a really, really good point about returners as well, because there are fundamental, you know, sort of mind shifts around what needs to be done, around flexibilities in the workforce and the workplace as well. I think it's also interesting to like just observing I'm married to an, an engineer, project management in in ai actually, and the the team that caddy's in is actually primarily female that they're all project managers in I are working with turing and things like that, and it's kind of interesting of how there's different elements of of engineers. It's so, so interdisciplinary and interconnected as engineering, isn't it around how we can maybe try to do different routes in about a pro, bring you know more people back or have that interdisciplinary approach. You know, like becky mentioned project management a few times. You know agile we use them as a term project management, you know. I just think there's different things that we could be doing around around bringing that in. 

21:04
What would you want to see and this is is to everyone training providers and employers how we can tackle those current engineering challenges. But also we're talking about the future a lot. What do we need to do to tackle those challenges? You've mentioned schools. You've mentioned returners. We're going to work for a very long time. In our current sort of situation, what do we need to do to better sort of get those sort of fundamental pieces together to better fix the puzzle? 

Rhys Morgan

21:32
Rhys, first of all, we need to get government to recognise the role of the FE sector in the skills landscape and properly invest in it. 

21:40
I think we'd all agree that the decades of underinvestment in FE, we are paying the price for that and I hope that, as part of the curriculum assessment review and the recognition of underinvestment in FE, we are paying the price for that and I hope that, as part of the curriculum assessment review and the recognition of the kind of 16 to 19 qualifications that are going to be so important for driving both the net zero transition. 

21:58
You think about all the technical skills needed. We're looking at, you know, estimates of up to 500,000 new jobs for the net zero transition. But then you turn also to the growth of the economy in the advanced and productive sectors, like we've talked about AI, but also future telecoms, quantum computing, compound semiconductor. The government is really banking on these things. There's no good just saying we've got this industrial strategy over here and we're not going to do anything about a skills strategy. You have to have a skill strategy to sit alongside the industrial strategy and I would implore the government to sit down and map out a skill strategy to go alongside the industrial strategy yeah, 100 I hear touching on that as well. 

Becky Ridler

22:43
As much as it's important that we recognize the new skills that are needed, it's going back to basics a lot of the moment. We're seeing the fallout of what the generation of covid kids are, and these kids can't communicate. You know they're struggling in to use, they don't know how to communicate or presentation skills, and I think we need to address those basic issues as well so we can skill them the ai technology skills that we need. A lot of the students I deal with on a daily basis struggle talking to me, they struggle making eye contact, they don't want to have their cameras on, they don't know how to write basic communications and as much as we want to upskill them so they have those skills in AI and new technology, they can't do the basics, what we're expecting them to be. They can't even complete those qualifications in the first place. 

23:20
And I think that comes back to what government needs to do to put more effort into those kids. And the fallout that we're still having from the COVID era is we have a whole generation of kids who are performing the basic skills that all of us take for granted. You know the basic skills of makeup, engineering, communication, presentation. Project management is obviously one we keep coming back to. If the kids can't do that at a fundamental level, they're never going to be able to complete the qualifications needed to upskill in the first place. 

Bryony Kingsland

23:42
But those durable, transferable skills that you take with you wherever you go, from one job to the other. We need to really be working on them as well. It's interesting, actually, because there was a conference last week about training and apprenticeships and City & Guilds actually held an employer summit about durable skills and how important they are and how we're going to embed them in the future workforce and what we can do. So it's really great to hear you saying Becky, really great to hear you saying Becky, we're getting so close to the end. 

Gavin O'Meara

24:09
If we could dream, and dream big. What would you each want to see around the future? Skills for engineering. What thing would you want to unlock? 

Rhys Morgan

24:16
Rhys. Well, I had a kind of a list of things. I'm reminded of the Cavitool report back in when was it? 2010,? Something like that, 2011,. Frank McLaughlin's report, commission on Adult Vocational Teaching and Learning, and the thing that I remember about that was the kind of two-way street and the link of employers and FE providers working together. And actually I think that's where kind of Teach2, the idea of Teach2, bringing employers, bringing practicing engineers into the classroom. I think we really need to kind of work on that dovetailing of employers and providers working much more closely together, because that's the way we're going to address the teaching skills gap in FE and bring advanced technologies into the classroom, because it's the engineers using those in industry bringing them back into the classroom and explaining to the students. I think if we can crack that, that would be such a big advancement for FE and technician training. 

Gavin O'Meara

25:13
Yeah, yeah, definitely, because what a rich review is all about for apprenticeships, isn't it? And a rich review, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, collaboration, yeah, definitely, Becky. Anything you'd like to add? 

Becky Ridler

25:23
I think I can said there is at the moment, it seems very much education is from 4 to 18 years old and then employers take over at that point. 

25:30
Whereas employers had a better kind of say in what happened in the early years and that collaborative approach bringing them up into the engineers and the employees that they want, we wouldn't have these skill gaps in the first place because there would be the get-go from. 

25:42
We need these type of skills, we need these base level. You know, if we had that, these kind of core skills that people should have and these bolt-on skills and qualifications that we can provide, you develop engineers and employers from a better, younger age as well and have a better understanding, instead of these students finishing school at 16, going I've got qualifications in STEM, what do I do now? Well, here's an apprenticeship, here's go to university, we'll see what happens next. And then goes the employers going I've got a degree, can you hire me? And then we don't have the skills that you require. Well, that should have just been 18 years getting to that point, whereas if we put those skills in an earlier age and develop them throughout as well, with the qualification that they're getting, you've a much more random employee at that point that they can join the workforce and get straight on the products and contribute more, instead of having that phase period of trying to upscale yeah, no, that's cool. 

Gavin O'Meara

26:27
What a great episode. Thank you so much everyone. It's been really cool. I think there's so many other things that we'd all want to ask around, like the drain from we could have done an hour gap. 

26:37
I think there's so many things, so many comments coming in as well, but I just want to say thank you. Thank everyone for joining us today. Becky, thank you, reese, thank you and brian, what a beautiful episode to be kicking off the season. So next week we're extending the engineering with underlying what reese was saying and this interdisciplinary approach around ai and digital is next week. So join us and we'll see you next week. Thanks very much.