City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
Welcome to City & Guilds’ podcast series. Each month, we’ll be exploring some of the issues raised in our recent research and across skills development.
City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
Solving Tomorrow’s Construction Skills Gap
Tackle the industry's skills shortages and stay ahead of the curve by listening to this critical episode of Future skills!
Whether you're a professional working in the construction and infrastructure industry or an SME looking to access training support, or a large employer needing to collaborate more effectively with providers, this episode is packed with fresh thinking on how to better tackle workforce shortages and future-proof businesses. The panel also look ahead to the impact of AI—reminding us why traditional skills, backed by digital adaptability, remain essential in the face of rapid change.
Discover how to:
- Attract diverse talent and expand your workforce beyond traditional recruitment channels
- Implement flexible apprenticeship programmes that meet industry needs and retain top talent
- Leverage digital transformation to drive innovation and efficiency in your organisation
In this thought-provoking episode of Future skills, hosts Bryony Kingsland and Gavin O’Meara are joined by industry leaders to unpack the pressing issues shaping construction and infrastructure today. From widening access and inclusion, to navigating the realities of shorter apprenticeships and the evolving role of SMEs, this conversation offers sharp insight and real-world solutions.
By listening to this episode, you'll gain valuable insights from industry experts so don't miss out on this essential conversation!
Special thanks to our guests: Jon Hornagold, Apprenticeship Manager at Amey, and Jason Howe, Technical Advisor for Construction and Utilities at City & Guilds.
For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:
Making Skills Work: The Path to Solving the Productivity Crisis - report
📢 Listen now and be part of the conversation shaping the future of skills.
Listen today, or watch on YouTube
We've got to expand our talent pool. We've got to look wider. We've got to attract people that maybe traditionally wouldn't have come into the construction or infrastructure trades, because there is so much more going on as opposed to your traditional on-site trades.
Gavin O'Meara:Hey, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us for Construction and Infrastructure Solutions. This is Future Skills, a joint collaboration between City and Guild and FE News, and my name is Gavin O'Meara and I'm joined by the host with the most Bryony. How are you?
Bryony Kingsland:Thanks for that intro, Gavin. Good thanks. Thank you for joining us, everybody and welcome. This is the fourth episode of our Future Skills series. During this series, we're taking a close look at some of the skill shortages affecting employers and the workforce that are critical to the UK's economic success, and in this session specifically, we'll be talking about infrastructure, building services, engineering and construction sectors. So for those that have read it and those that haven't, City and Guilds published a productivity report called Making Skills Work the Paths to Solving the Productivity Crisis. That report highlighted an urgent need to rethink how we reskill and upskill the UK workforce to meet the constantly evolving demands of the various sectors. And the report revealed that fewer than half of work age adults fill their left education with the right skills for their careers, and 91% of CEOs have identified that building their workforce skills is crucial for boosting productivity. So the findings really emphasise the need for a coordinated approach to bridging the skills gap, and today we've got a great panel.
Gavin O'Meara:And this is a really important episode actually, because construction and infrastructure solutions are absolutely key to government, Also around the world. I've just come back from Berlin, a fringe G20 event. Oh, you had to drop that into the concert. I dropped it. I dropped the bomb, the amount of people that were talking about the importance of construction and infrastructure. So we've got two really, really interesting guests. We've got Jon Hornagold and Jason Howe. I'm going to bring Jason in to begin with. Jason, how are you?
Jason Howe:Good morning, I'm well, thank you, how are you? Yeah, really good.
Gavin O'Meara:So much going on in construction at the moment, Jason and we're looking at construction and infrastructure, but first we'll focus on construction. So, no, that's your, your main sort of core area. What are you seeing as the most in demand like roles and opportunities that happen? And when you're in Norwich today, so you're traveling around all sorts of different colleges and training providers, what are you sort of seeing as cool best practice that is going on in different training providers and colleges? You sort of seeing as cool best practice that is going on in different training providers and colleges around attracting and retaining talent?
Jason Howe:well, that's a excellent question. I think one of the the key things to remember is that within the world of construction infrastructure, often it is regionalised with regards to regional priorities and key objectives, that they have key projects that may be being undertaken. The colleges in the UK do a fantastic job in training learners. We have a significant number of City College Norwich, where I'm at the minute, as well as many, many others I've been to. They're all talking about an increase in numbers on full-time courses. What we need to be doing is attracting those learners to more apprenticeships and to more employment opportunities, and that is one of the key things.
Jason Howe:The the staff here at City College Norwich and myself this morning have had an excellent discussion. They've challenged me, they've challenged City and Guilds, and it's that correlation and that link that there are so many fantastic young individuals out there that will be perfect for that transition into the world of construction or infrastructure that they need more opportunities to be able to do that. Now there is another fundamental thing that keeps cropping up, and that is we've got to have the right baseline and the right structure at the starting point, and that's where FE is really struggling, because construction is really flourishing at the minute and the construction workers are earning good salaries and having good livings. Problem is, the world of FE struggles to keep up with that and attracting people from site into the classroom is getting more and more difficult. So it's a fundamental change that we need to implement and get right at the baseline in order to allow those transition from full-time to apprenticeships.
Bryony Kingsland:Is that a salary issue, Jason, in terms of competing with the construction industry on salaries for people who are going to teach?
Jason Howe:construction. It certainly is when you look at salaries. No disrespect to any other sector, but you know, other sectors can quite easily attract people into the world of further education because maybe their industry doesn't pay as much as what they may get as a college lecturer or assessor. So I do agree that salaries is one of the key points. There are others on each college again, with regards to workloads and pressures and all these things that go around becoming a qualified teacher to to train it, however we want to term them. There's a lot of importance put on that and a lot of development and a lot of expectation on teachers now and stressors. But certainly the salary is one of the key things. But it is probably one of the key things because, look, let's be honest, if people are looking for those type of roles and they're in industry, first thing they're going to want to know is can they earn the same as what they're earning in industry?
Jason Howe:And I know the people that have left their classroom, younger teachers because physically they can still work in industry and still earn a very significant living now and they may look to return to the world of FE as the knees start to go or the hand. You know, the hands, the joints start to seize up a little bit. That's what happened to me, you know, with an injured knee I had to make a transition, but that could be too late by then. We need something to solve it now, if we can, but that could be too late by then.
Bryony Kingsland:We need something to solve it now, if we can. Jason, is it also a case of there? I mean, you said yourself that you had a knee injury and that attracted you into the FE sector. Are there other things that you think can attract people from the construction sector into? Because you've talked about some of those wider issues. It's not just about salary, and this time last year I was talking to Craig Smith from Gen2, about the engineering sector and he was talking about actually things like benefits, things like more flexible working patterns, not such long hours where you're out early in the morning you're not getting home till late at night, which is often the case when you're on a construction site or an infrastructure site. Is it also about the benefits for those people that providers maybe need to think about?
Jason Howe:Certainly, and it's not as physically demand as a role in the sector is. It is demanding in other ways as we know. But yeah, I think there's so many benefits and one of the best benefits is the adrenaline from when you have learners progress from a course onto another or into an apprenticeship or pass an EPA. As a tutor, there's no better feeling than you're seeing learners become somebody and progress and succeed, and that's so, so valuable and not always be you know the path that they were originally wanting to take, but if a destination is positive, then there's no better feeling for tutors in that world to achieve that.
Jason Howe:And, like I've said, the colleges in this country do a phenomenal job in supporting learners, because the demands in fe isn't just about teaching them a trade anymore. There's so much more wraparound stuff. I'm so grateful that when I went to college, I started to learn things more productively and in context to the way I enjoyed to learn and within context of what I was learning. So we've talked about maths and English. That could be a key thing, you know, probably not something I excelled at in school, but when it was taught to me in a way of contextualizing it to a sector I was interested in.
Gavin O'Meara:I could then understand it and progress with it, so maybe that could be something that could be looked at as well, I think that's segued into the burning question around flexibilities that we've seen in in construction, particularly for apprenticeships and also for older learners around functional skills and stuff like that. For older learners around functional skills and stuff like that. What's been the feedback? So I know, brian, you travel as well and, jason, what's been the feedback from providers and employers on this, because I've heard mixed views on this, because I can understand it, because you want your cement ratios to be correct, so when you're building a house so I don't want a house built with sand and stuff and at the same time, I also understand that there's a massive skills need that we need to rapidly deploy. What's been the sort of messaging that you've both sort of heard around the flexibilities in construction, apprenticeships in particular?
Bryony Kingsland:I'll answer some of that. I think it's a bit mixed. I think there's still possibly a lack of understanding amongst employers, because there's still some employers out there that think that maths and English is actually no longer needed, whereas in actual fact the flexibility is that you can make the choice about whether it's needed or not, and I think we need to get better messaging out there about what that flexibility really is to the employers so they're not going oh my God, I'm going to recruit someone who hasn't got maths, who hasn't got English. They can still request that's part of their apprenticeship, and I think we need to get that message out there.
Bryony Kingsland:I think one of the interesting things that maybe Jason can answer better than I can, because he's one of our apprenticeship specialists, is the flexibilities that are coming in around shorter apprenticeships, particularly that shorter apprenticeship which has been geared towards construction, which the government's already talking about trying to bring in later on this year, and I think there are some serious and key concerns around that and what it might mean and what the content of that particular shorter apprenticeship might be. With that 625 million, the government is now committed to construction and infrastructure to get everything moving, and part of that is going to be committed to those foundation apprenticeships which are specified to be shorter potentially. I think there's definitely some concerns around the sector and amongst providers, I think.
Jason Howe:Yeah, exactly the same. I think there's a key term that's often missed when we talk about construction and that's time served. You know, being a time served tradesperson, you can't buy that, you can't package it into a smaller duration. The complexities and the dexterity skills that's required to work in construction are things that can't be learned overnight. They are things that take time to come to fruition for learners to be able to develop those and become time-served, competent and working industry. So that's one of the messages that myself personally, and similarly I've heard from colleagues in FE who have a similar ilk think the same thing. Another key thing is about trying not to lose the traditions of the trade and the skill set that's required and haven't. I know you've just been to germany and you know the model they have. I'm associated with a carpentry college out there. I understand and see the emphasis they put on the training of their young carpenters and how they progress through and how it's again at that time served mythology that they apply and their carpenters are certainly excelling out there. But that's a key thing here.
Jason Howe:And the other thing with these accelerated apprenticeships is and I saw something the other week and I asked the question if I was a parent. I'll put myself in the position of the apprentice. What's the impact of this short apprenticeship on me as in? How is that role going to be perceived in industry? What is that role? Because at the minute it's a foundation apprenticeship, but what does that look like? What's being pitched at level two? What do I progress as? Do I need to go on to something else? What role is there for me in industry with this apprenticeship?
Jason Howe:So it's not just about putting people through apprenticeships and thinking that I'll solve everything. It's about we've got to put these people into positions and into roles that are in demand and that's going to be suitable for them, suitable for the employers and for the sector. So I think it's a good initiative. I think it just maybe needs a little bit more thinking through, as there's been so many good initiatives the way they're looking at apprenticeships in england with the general builder one was mentioned when we've got our one-man gang. So I'm thinking more regionally, where I'm at the minute East Anglia, thinking where I live in the northeast, in a rural part of County Durham. There ain't many big, big house builders out there. So I'm thinking well, if I'm an apprentice in yeah, and what does it mean for SME?
Gavin O'Meara:the trade is very different.
Bryony Kingsland:I think there's also a lack of clarity about. Obviously, we know where the apprentices are going to come from and it's going to be geared towards young people, but I think there's a big question about where they go. Do they go on to a site after that short apprenticeship because there are health and safety issues, or is it the intention actually that they do that short apprenticeship and then they move on to the next session up, because the shorter apprenticeship is the pathway or the step up to a higher level apprenticeship at level three or a specialised apprenticeship at level two, if they want to be a carpenter, or if they want to be a brickie, or if they want to be an electric engineer or whatever it is? What are your views on that? What are you hearing, if anything?
Jason Howe:exactly what you've just said. There are puns and everything else intended. It's that sort of ladder effect and that's the stepping stones of what does the pathway for that young person look like, what is the destination and how do they get there? How can we support more people into these job roles and not just flood FE colleges with full time learners? Because in industry and I think John's technical issues relate to this is construction has a place for everybody. You know it's such a diverse sector construction and infrastructure.
Jason Howe:Digital tech the way that digital tech is evolving and improving all of the time. We see in the use of AI now being used. Things are evolving massively and it's supporting learners through these journeys. Whether it is a foundation apprenticeship, that's a stepping stone onto, you know, a trade apprenticeship fantastic. If that helps that young person on that journey, on that pathway, then I'm all for it. My only concern personally was when I saw it was where to put myself in the position of the apprentice. How are they going to be seen in the industry? What is that role? If they don't progress, they think, oh, I've done an apprenticeship, what's my job role? How are they going to be perceived by industry? What roles are they just going to be left and then it's essentially not wanting to. It won't fill any gaps. We'll see more people leaving the sector for other roles in other sectors.
Gavin O'Meara:We've heard a lot about construction, but infrastructure and Amey there's some massive projects going on in government sort of eyeliner, already existing. Um, what do you see around interesting things that maybe Amey is doing or you've seen across the sector, around attracting and retaining talent and things particularly around skills what, what sort of thing would you want to see as a large infrastructure organisation, because Jason was talking about? A lot of SMEs are in the construction trades and feeding into those Building projects around housing. But infrastructure what do you see happening?
Jon Hornagold:Jon, I see around things going on in Amey and generally in the sectors the digitisation of buildings, the built environment and infrastructure, and I don't think there's a day go past, even in my role as apprenticeship manager, that we don't have a discussion about data and how we manage data, how we collect data, how we present data. So I know within within Amy, there is a lot of work going on in the data space. So back in 1990 when I went into the employment market, there was a big IT boom at the time there and we were being told don't go into construction trades, it is the way forward. And it seems now we're in this space where we need skills in construction and we need the skills in the digital, because the two are coming together. So I heard you talking about the trades and apprenticeships together. So I heard you talking about the trades and apprenticeships. But actually the construction, the infrastructure management space has expanded because we've now got this massive digital space within it where we're monitoring buildings, monitoring infrastructure and collecting that data, analysing that data to improve efficiencies, to drive towards net zero, decarbonisation as a sector is expanding.
Jon Hornagold:What are we doing about that? Well, we've got to expand our talent pool, we've got to look wider. We've got to attract people that maybe traditionally wouldn't have come into the construction or infrastructure trades because there is so much more going on as opposed to your traditional on-site trades. So we're looking at various different programmes with attracting females into the industry, multicultural into the industry. We're working with prison leavers. There's a lot of skills and people are leaving prison and they can use those skills and get into employment. There's a programme with the armed forces. People leave in the armed forces so they can transfer their skills. So widening that pool of talent that we're looking into and our recruitment teams and social value teams are doing a lot of work in that space to expand the talent pool that we're dipping into Jon, we know a lot about what Amey's doing.
Bryony Kingsland:I've read up a lot in the last few weeks, obviously knowing that you were coming in as a guest, so it's great to hear all your plans and everything that Amey's already up to. You'll know that the government's plan for change has recently focused on a significant amount of investment into buildings infrastructure, because their own plan for change focuses on driving economic growth through infrastructure development, job creation. So they've invested in that £625 million. But a lot of that conversation has been about more, about more sort of trades orientated side of construction. What would you like to see done with some of that £625 million to address what you've just raised, which we know is the more digital automation and the advancing changes that are happening in infrastructure and construction and building services engineering? What would you like to see happen with that 625 million?
Jon Hornagold:well, that's.
Jon Hornagold:I mean, I think one of the things that I heard you talking about earlier was smes, and I think smes are not fortunate enough to employ people in roles such as myself managing apprenticeships, levy and the wider lnd team, that we've got our digital skills teams and the wider talent team within in Amey.
Jon Hornagold:So I would like to see SMEs that are vital in the many, many different sectors and in the construction and infrastructure sectors being able to get that money to upskill their existing staff. There's sometimes too much bureaucracy and I can speak from the apprenticeship space in terms of friends where I live that have got businesses and I ask them why that they don't have apprentices, and I talk them through the process and what they need and it gets to the point where you hit a training contract that's legally binding that could be anywhere between 30 to 70 pages. They're like, oh, wait, a minute, I'm not getting involved in that. So I think, by removing some bureaucracy and allowing them and actually promoting and so they know where to go, where they can access that money, because the SMEs are vital in all the supply chains for supporting the small, medium and extremely large projects that are going on.
Gavin O'Meara:Yeah, and that's where we've seen innovations coming out. Is normally for SMEs, isn't it?
Bryony Kingsland:Is there a collaborative opportunity between larger employers, SMEs and the training provider sector to do something here outside of what government may decide, because sometimes that can be a little bit of a slow process and also I think that, being Department of Education, they want to spend money in a certain way and track what happens to that money.
Jon Hornagold:I think collaboration is key to a lot of things. We've got to work together on this With working with SMEs. We engage with people in our supply chain. We offer them learning solutions to work alongside us. We've got joint ventures within Amey and I've been speaking to their L&D partners there and how we can put more joint into the joint venture in the L&D space and learning space. So, yeah, absolutely where we can with our supply chain, we collaborate with them and we help, even if it's just advice or we provide learning solutions to them skill in, etc. Themselves all trying to work on the same thing.
Bryony Kingsland:But actually that shared knowledge through that collaboration can help resolve the issues a lot quicker than individuals or groups trying to work on them so what we really need the department of education to do and the government to do is actually facilitate that collaboration in some way, maybe using some of that 625 million. That would be great, wouldn't it.
Gavin O'Meara:Yeah, 100%. We're nearly out of time and I've got so many questions for you, Jon. One last one is sort of looking a little bit future-focused. So impact of AI on everyone's jobs is going to be huge, but the last that are going to be touched are those like cast, who sit in heels. They will have said that plastic will be the last role that is going to be touched by AI. It seems that it's logical, like you said, john, that in the past it was like software engineering would be the way to go. Construction don't touch it with a barge pole. Very much the flip. How can people reskill, upskill and train over into construction and infrastructure projects for a long-term and sustainable jobs, because construction infrastructure is looking pretty hot right now?
Jon Hornagold:I think the training programs have got to be readily available and people that want to go into those they need access to it. But it needs to be an even spread, and jason mentioned about where he lives. I struggle sometimes. We've got requirements for apprentices and I struggle to get training files in the locations where we want to employ apprenticeships. So I think, in the wider skills away from apprenticeships, it's making sure that the right skills, the right training is available in those areas that need it, and I know there is work going on in combined authorities to ensure that that happens.
Jon Hornagold:But, yeah, making sure that the training is available where it's needed. But I also think, going back to the question about the money, is we need many, many people trained, but actually is there the capacity there for trainers, tutors, coaches, whatever we want to call them to deliver that training to the amount of people that need training? So maybe some of that money can be used to facilitate people that may be slightly older, that want to come off site and want to come off the tools, going into the training. They've got the knowledge, they've got the skills, so let's use them and use some of that money so they can deliver that training to people that are changing careers or people that are now coming into the employment market.
Gavin O'Meara:Yeah, it sounds cool. We're completely out of time. I'm sorry everyone. Bryony really cool show today. Jason, thanks for stepping in and Jon, thank you so much. You've done a stellar job. Everyone really, really, really cool show, thank you. Really important area as well. Really important area as well. Talking of important areas, episode five I can't believe he's. He's coming up around Durable skills, which is also really important. We've done a really cool like sort of path through this whole season, so thank you everyone for joining us.