City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
Welcome to City & Guilds’ podcast series. Each month, we’ll be exploring some of the issues raised in our recent research and across skills development.
City Voices: A City & Guilds Podcast
Level Up: Award-Winning Training Insights
What Does Award-Winning Training Look Like?
Join host Polly Rowe for an in-depth look at what training excellence really looks like across a range of sectors — and why the most successful organisations place skills development at the heart of their strategy.
In this episode, Polly is joined by Candice Gardner, Education Manager for Learning and Content at the award-winning Dermalogica UK, and Remi Ogunleye, former Awards Manager and now Contracts and Partnerships Manager at City & Guilds, as they take a deep dive into the stories behind award-winning training programmes, from organisations of all sizes – even those with limited resources.
Key Takeaways You'll Discover:
• Why excellence in training creates measurable business impact when learning is linked to outcomes
• How organisations of any size can achieve excellence through creativity and innovation
• The “grow or go” principle shows that staff are more likely to stay when they have opportunities to develop
• Immersive, experience-based training is the future – creativity is key!
Whether you're in HR, L&D, or simply passionate about skills, this episode offers inspiration and practical insight into what makes training truly exceptional.
For more about the Princess Royal Training Awards or to learn how to apply, visit: Princess Royal Training Awards
Listen to more episodes in the Foundation & Friends podcast series, here.
Training is a lot of different things and I think be creative, go wild, because if you can immerse somebody and create experience, they will grow.
Polly Rowe:Here at City and Guilds, our purpose is helping people, organisations and economies develop their skills for growth, and through our foundation, we act as a real catalyst for this work, helping people to remove the barriers they face to getting a job, celebrating best practice on the job and advocating for jobs of the future. I'm Polly Rowe and I'm delighted to be bringing you this brand new season of our Foundation and Friends podcast, where we're celebrating a remarkable milestone 10 years of the Princess Royal Training Awards. What an achievement. I'm delighted to be joined in this episode by Candice Gardner, who is from Dermalogica UK and is the Education Manager for Learning and Content, and Remi Ogunleye, who is now Contracts and Partnership Manager at City and Guilds but was the Awards Manager for the first six years of the Princess Royal Training Awards. Welcome both of you.
Polly Rowe:Hello Hi thanks, Polly Hi. Thanks for having me. The whole series of these 10 years of the Princess Royal Training Awards is to talk to people that have been part of the awards over those last 10 years, and you have both been on the journey with us. Remi, I'm gonna sort of look to you first and start with you, though, because from the very beginning, we created the Princess Royal Training Awards and you were in that award manager role. What is it about the Princess Royal Training Awards that just still holds a piece in your heart, I guess.
Remi Ogunleye:Oh, the fact that it is a mark of excellence, and I mean mean, when we created the awards, we did a whole lot of due diligence, engaging stakeholders to find out what they really wanted, and I guess doing that work initially was crucial to the success that we have today. And also the name Princess Royal Training Awards. You know what a name, what a programme, what an award.
Polly Rowe:So yes, so true, and I remember even though I wasn't as directly involved in working on the awards, but obviously was still very much part of your team I remember us thinking about. You know how long it would last and would it stand the test of time, if you know they have evolved over the last 10 years, but I do think it's a testament to the fact that they stand out, don't they? And they make a difference. And you know, Candice Dermalogica was a recipient. You know, before you were an assessor. So if you think back to when you were applying, I guess what made Dermalogica want to apply for a Princess Royal Training Award.
Candice Gardner:I think it's interesting that, Remi, you commented about it being a mark of excellence, because I think that's very much what we wanted to validate and demonstrate what we were doing as an organisation are assessed in terms of making sure that there is sufficient evidence to substantiate exactly how you're getting to your outcomes and what role training has played. To achieve those outcomes means that they have real value when you get them, because you are validated in that journey that you've taken as an organization. And I know, certainly for Dermalogica, it was one of our proudest moments to achieve the standard and you know, we still it still holds great place in our heart and we still proudly, you know show our awards and they're out there on display for everybody to see.
Polly Rowe:Yeah, and you know they're not easy. We hear time and time again from organisations and actually that's good for us to hear, because we don't want it to be easy, we don't want everyone to be able to reach that standard. Yeah, I want it to feel like, I guess, that sense of accomplishment when an organization does achieve that standard. If I just stick with you for a minute, candice, you've obviously been with Dermalogica a long time, so we won won't harbour the point too much, but nearly 25 years. They're very lucky to have that service. When you think back to when you, I guess, first stepped into that sort of training role, what were some of the sort of challenges that you were really focused on solving then? And I guess, how have they shifted or evolved over your time at Dermalogica?
Candice Gardner:I think it's an interesting question, Polly, because for me in my role at Dermalogica, I moved from being a hands-on skin therapist practitioner into a training, educational capacity and actually the organisation. At that time the role I was stepping into wasn't a traditional L&D role that looked at corporate employees and we were trying to upskill employees. Actually, we were working with our business partners and we were looking at ways in which we could support our business partners to work with our product and, you know, evolve what they were doing in their businesses so that they could become more financially independent, more secure. But also it was a lot about credibility and reputation, because the skincare industry and beauty, if I say in inverted commas suffered very much from a reputation of not being the clever girl's job and a lot of women were undermined for their skills and their skills were not recognised. So a big part of what we were trying to do within the framework of product training was also bring skills. So I think from our point of view that was probably quite revolutionary at the time.
Candice Gardner:There were no other brands infusing skills-led training into what was effectively product brand training and as the time has evolved, it hasn't changed. Actually that's still a number one priority for us. We're still interested in whatever changes we make with product or new services that we bring out. It's about how do we maximise those opportunities that we have with those business partners to really evolve their skills so that they elevate themselves in the eyes of their customers and in the eyes of the rest of the wider world, as it were, so that their skills are recognised and they can become successful leveraging those skills. So it's an interesting one because it hasn't really changed. We're still trying to do the same thing. We're still trying to focus on skills-led education that really helps businesses succeed and individuals succeed.
Polly Rowe:I think that is why and I'm not just saying it our organisations are so aligned, because our purpose, at our very core hasn't changed. You know, we as organisations evolve and of course we have to change and adapt the world. The world changes around us, but at our very core, City and Guilds is a skills organisation, and so is Dermalogica. I think people overlooked the beauty industry for quite a long time actually, but I do feel like there's a shift now and people are recognising that if you are training people women in particular, although obviously there are men in the industry as well and you invest into these women, they can go on and create really successful businesses and they can become fantastic entrepreneurs and they will be huge advocates for your business and your product, won't they? So there is a huge win-win there for business, and I guess individuals, absolutely.
Remi Ogunleye:And Polly, just before you go on, just to add to that, as Candice was talking there. And Polly, just before you go on, just to add to that, as Candice was talking there. I guess this is the USP for the PRTAs, that we're not just. You know, recognising your corporate, you know, learning skills is also important and early on we embrace that and it's so beautiful to hear you, candice. It's important for us to acknowledge that as well, to acknowledge it as well.
Polly Rowe:Yeah, you're absolutely right, and that is a beautiful segue, Remi, to my next question, really, which is, I guess, reflecting on some of those organisations from those early years or even recent years. What are some of those organisations or programmes that really stood out to you, that you still remember?
Remi Ogunleye:There are so many, but the ones that stood out for me most were the ones where you could see that they had little or no budget for training, but they've been innovative in the way that they've, you know, encouraged training, learning and development, using technology and seeking out volunteers rather than, you know, you're not doing anything because they lack budget. So it's fascinating that you know we talk about East Coast FM. You know that was just incredible. We were looking at those programs and were in awe of those colleagues who saw a need within their organisations and they decided to take an approach which is outside of your norm. And reading those programs, it's like, wow, this is interesting, we want to go and see this. Yeah, and you remember those days when, pre-covid, we would go out to the organisations? Yeah, visit to taste and see those trainings. It was incredible to hear those beneficiaries talk about the benefit, absolutely, and the benefit the organisations gained from those trainers as well is fascinating and incredible and it was much for some of those organisations.
Polly Rowe:it was so embedded without them even realising they were doing some fantastic things that many big corporates were not doing or were doing because they had to. There were these beautiful small organisations that were just doing some really fantastic things and I remember actually, again pre-COVID, we had an in-person workshop when we just announced the recipients, and East Coast FM, which are a community radio station based in Scotland, was sitting next to RBS the wonderful Denise, who's now moved on from RBS and they connected and then they were able to sort of share with one another expertise and then I think one of them ended up going to the other organisation and sharing learning and they were able to share their space and it was just such a beautiful moment of connection. I still remember it vividly. Candice, you're obviously now an assessor, which is brilliant, and we love that. We've got your expertise in our assessor team. What is standing out for you now as an assessor and, I guess, what does good look?
Candice Gardner:like Listening to what you were saying, remi.
Candice Gardner:The thing for me is just the vast breadth of organisations of all shapes and sizes and sectors private, public charity it's quite extraordinary really, and there's so much innovation and creativity that comes through some of those applications.
Candice Gardner:I think when we ask the question, what does good look like?
Candice Gardner:I'm not sure there's a one answer training awards because whilst the hallmarks and the benchmarks are fixed and structured, they're written in a way that allows for any kind of organisation to present their programme in a really clear way. And I think for me, what stands out will always be when you can really truly connect the training to the impact and I think there's a lot of creativity in terms of how we, different organisations and businesses, try to tackle problems when you can actually prove that your training solution achieved the outcome that you're stating, because often there's lots of things in business that can influence our outcomes and training might be one element in it. And I think that's sometimes the challenge for organisations is can you absolutely pin it down to that training programme being pivotal in getting your outcome? But yes, I think good for me isn't a one-size-fits-all. I think it's about trying to create the the solution match and the training match, with the resources you have, with the budgets you have, with the people, with the outcomes you're trying to achieve.
Polly Rowe:And we quite often have, don't we organisations apply and the assessor team read it and they go this is brilliant, but they are just not quite ready yet. How does that? You know, how does that feel as an assessor when you're having those conversations and you're going God, this organisation is great, it's a fantastic brand, it's a fantastic programme, but they're not quite ready.
Candice Gardner:I mean, sometimes it's tough because you can see that they're putting so much in, but ultimately it's an evidence-based award. So hopefully what we give back in the feedback is really constructive. That's always the focus, is it's positively constructive to help organisations to identify the links and find the evidence that helps them to prove what their training programme is doing. We're trying to catch you in. You know we are, we are, we're trying to catch you in, so we want to give you constructive feedback that will help you to put the stuff in that the assessors want to get.
Remi Ogunleye:The awards use those feedback almost like a consultancy type thing to sort of shape the application for the next time. And we've had organisations receive feedback and then they've come back and then be a recipient. So it's fantastic.
Candice Gardner:I was also going to say. I think sometimes organisations have great outcomes almost by default because they are doing something great. The conscious intention and the conscious engagement wasn't there, and what the Princess Royal Training Awards feedback can do for them is help them to actually deconstruct what they've done, and then reconstruct what they've done so that they actually can articulate what it is that they've endeavoured to do and put the underpinning behind it.
Polly Rowe:Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Remi Ogunleye:It is a great, I guess, free consultancy opportunity for organisations, where, providing they've got the time to sit down because it is a rigorous process, it's great for them to um, you know, to go through and just be part of the process yeah, and, and to add to that, Polly, it's also fascinating that organisations use those three hallmarks, yeah, to really look at their training and their programs and every anything else they're doing within the organisation to go, right, how could we use these hallmarks to shape, you know, the policies or the trainings that we're developing? And it's fascinating to see that. And we encourage organisations to cut those three hallmarks and really, you know, take them away and work with them to develop whatever it is they're trying to develop.
Polly Rowe:I think, if nothing else, we know that there is a business benefit to investing into training into your organisation and again, these are things that we ask in our surveys and we know that well over 80% of organisations report better staff retention and a more engaged workforce and that saves your business money, you know, in itself you don't want to have to keep going out and recruiting or hiring new staff or new talent or looking for new talent. You know talent is hard to find, so when you've got it, you know you really want to look after it. I guess, candice, really, what is that connection between those strong programmes and employee retention, for both your own organisation, but also what you're seeing through some of the organisations coming through the assessment process?
Candice Gardner:I think there's an expression that says grow or go right as an employee and and I think if you, if you join an organisation where your development is prioritised and you feel like you're gaining something, ultimately as employees, yes, we're employed to do a particular job or a particular role and that's great. Maybe we have the skills, we're employed with a certain set of skills, but ultimately life is a learning journey all the way through and everyone is looking for their next level of advancement. So, for employees, most people want to feel like they're getting back from what they're putting in, and I think learning and development, training and development that is an important part of that employee's life cycle with an organisation, and how long they stay is often connected to that. I mean, I'll take myself as a point in question.
Candice Gardner:People often ask me why have you stayed at Dermalogica so long? You know, surely you could have gone and done all sorts of different things. And I had one friend who always used to say to me what's next? And I was like what do you mean? What's next? This is it, isn't it? This is it. But the reason I stayed was because I always felt like I was learning and I'm passionate. I see myself as a lifelong learner and I'm always looking for opportunities to grow and explore new ideas and new thoughts. It's why I said yes, of course, I'll be an assessor for the PRTAs, because I want to see what other people are doing and I want to learn from them. So, for me personally, my journey at Dermalog ica was very much about I felt I was growing. I've never felt in a position where I wasn't growing, and so, for me, grow or go.
Polly Rowe:Yeah, I love that. And when you were saying that, I mean, I've been at City and Guilds a long time, Remi, you've been here a long time as well, but I also get asked that same question. It's a long time, Remi, you've been here a long time as well, but I also get asked that same question what is next and where are you going to go? And I guess I'd never thought about it like that, but that's probably why I've been here, because I've been allowed to grow and develop and learn and try new things. And you know, just give it a go and I guess at the point in which there is nowhere else to grow, I'll have to go, you know, but for now I'm very lucky and fortunate that we're in an organisation where we can grow and we can learn new things.
Polly Rowe:So I've never heard that saying before. But I love it, I love it, we do, isn't it all the time? Now, forget, go hard over home. What is the most or some of the most important principles that you've learned in your careers that I guess have stood the test of time when it comes to learning and development? You know learning at work. I guess, Remi, can I start with you, for?
Remi Ogunleye:me is you've got to be passionate. You've got to be passionate, you've got to be interested, you've got to want it. Yeah, right, and using myself as an example, as you said, Polly, you've been here for over 14 years. Now and again, you know, grow or go, yeah, I mean we are encouraged to explore, and if you're passionate and interested and curious, yeah, then you know the sky is really your starting point and you know that that's my, that's my motto and that's what I go by. So I seek out those opportunities to grow and explore and learn something new every day, and it's helped and it's fascinating. Thank you, Candice.
Candice Gardner:Such a great question. I have a motto. My motto is level up, up, turn up. I love that and I apply that in everything, and I passionately believe that, in order to be who we are and and really um, what's the word? Represent who we are to world, we need to be open to what the world has to offer us, because, whether you're in a training role, whether you're someone who's learning, every single interaction that you have, there is something there that you will learn from and you will take with you, because we are every experience that we've ever been. That's how, that's what we manifest.
Candice Gardner:So, from my perspective, it's why I love education, skills, learning, training, it. For me, it's all about that, and I think, if you're trying to put that into a context of a training programme and delivering better training, experience is everything, immersion is everything. So I think people are quite linear in the way they think about training and I think my advice would be training is not just sitting in a classroom or doing an e-learning module. Training is a lot of different things and I think, be creative, go wild, because if you can immerse somebody and create experience, they will grow. Yeah, I love that.
Polly Rowe:We mentioned at the start. Look, it's 10 years of the PRTA. So my very final question that we're going to finish with both of you is, I guess, your favourite thing or the thing you've enjoyed most about the PRTAs. So, remy, I'm going to come to you again what did you enjoy most about the PRTAs and why are you still involved? I guess, in a way.
Remi Ogunleye:So the most enjoyable thing or aspects was witnessing the transformative impact of training programmes on organisations and individuals, and it was incredibly rewarding to see how excellence in training, you know, facilitate that. It's been fascinating to see the growth of the awards, what we started I can't believe we started this and it's just grown wings and it's been incredible to see a community formed after this and it's just grown wings and it's been incredible to to see a community formed after this and it continues to grow and you know long may it continue, yeah, and Candice.
Polly Rowe:What for you? What? What has been your favorite thing?
Candice Gardner:the alumna, yeah, and the community, yeah, absolutely hands down 100 because, having the opportunity I just said to you, I'm all about the new experience and the connecting and meeting different people and hearing different people's stories and experiences and seeing how different people approach problems and situations. So, yeah, the alumni, without doubt, and I think if you can become part of this community, you won't regret it.
Polly Rowe:Yeah, I think I guess for me I'll just finish it up, because I can't do this podcast, or have this conversation as well, without faring back to the amazing team, yeah, who are behind delivering these brilliant, brilliant awards and everything you've just both said. And you know, Candice, we think of you as part of our extended family anyway. And Remi, obviously a firm member of our family, although she chose to leave us. But I think everyone just takes such pride in delivering it so, so well, from Stu and Mike, who do the stuff on the website. Lan and Justine, who deliver the events with absolute precision. Michael, who will just get up and do the emceeing so fantastically. Me and Laura, who will bounce off each other ideas.
Polly Rowe:Kirsty, our chief exec, who's just absolutely, you know, behind the awards 100%. We've got Tash and Lauren, who just get stuck in and really want to, you know, make sure that the relationships with the alumni, who are so precious to us are, are communicated to and involved in stuff. You know it really is a team effort. And extended City and Guild's colleagues as well. You know they get involved as ambassadors. We've got our comms team who help churn out some fantastic pieces of comms for us. So, but it is a machine in the background who all work on making this programme such a success.
Polly Rowe:And yeah, as Remi said so wonderfully, I think, here's to the next 10 years and yeah, hopefully the awards continue to go from strength to strength. Huge thanks to our guests today, Candice and Remi, who joined us for such a lovely conversation, and I hope you feel just as inspired and fired up now listening from Candice talking about levelling up, keeping up and turning up all the way through, to Remy, who told us so lovely that the sky is actually just the starting point, not the limit for us. I hope that you're inspired as an individual, but also for your organisations, to go away and invest into your own training or your organisation's training, because you really will reap the rewards. Thank you for joining us.