In Conversation with...Seema Malhotra MP

How to equip people with the right skills to thrive in a rapidly changing economy. 

Be among the first to listen to this special edition of In Conversation with..., recorded live at the Skills Hub during Labour Party Conference in Liverpool, City & Guilds CEO Kirstie Donnelly, MBE is joined by Seema Malhotra MP, the newly appointed Minister of State for the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, in what is her very first interview since taking on the role.

Seema reflects on how skills remain central to Labour’s mission across government, even within her new international brief, and explains why building a lifelong learning culture is critical to tackling inequalities and driving economic growth. From the forthcoming Post-16 Strategy and reforms to apprenticeships, to the role of Skills England and the importance of employer engagement, Seema shares candid insights into how government intends to move from policy commitments to real delivery.

Listeners will gain a clear understanding of:

• How Labour plans to build the foundations for lifelong learning and address persistent skills gaps.
• Why the integration of skills policy across departments is vital to economic success and social mobility.
• What employers, training providers and individuals can expect from upcoming reforms.
• How skills development is shaping not only the UK workforce but also international trade and partnerships.

This conversation offers practical takeaways for policymakers, educators, employers, and anyone committed to ensuring skills truly change lives.

For further information about the material quoted in this episode visit:

• Skills England

For more episodes from the series click here

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stakes: Skills And Inequality
• 0:24 Introducing Seema Malhotra And Focus
• 1:00 Why Skills Must Be Cross-Government
• 2:48 Turning Awareness Into Action
• 3:32 Baseline Challenges And Investment
• 4:46 Lifelong Learning Finance And Flexibility
• 5:40 Post-16 Strategy And Design Rethink
• 6:30 Skills As A Whole-Society Effort
• 6:45 Fixing Unequal Provision And Access
• 7:59 Skills, DWP Shift, And Jobcentres Reform
• 9:40 Demand Meets Supply: Workforce Strategy
• 11:05 Lifelong Employability Beyond Jobcentres
• 12:20 Investment In Priority Sectors
• 13:40 What Success Looks Like For Skills England
• 15:00 Employers: From Noise To Investment
• 16:40 Place-Based Skills And Local Partnerships
• 17:45 Foreign Office Role And Global Skills Corridors
• 19:15 Closing Thanks And Outlook

Transcript

Seema: 0:00

And if you have a system in which the skills development and skills provision is unequal, then you're only going to perpetuate inequalities through life.

Kirstie: 0:17

Welcome to our In Conversation podcast where we sit down with leading voices shaping the future of skills, education and work. I'm Kirstie Donnelly, I'm the CEO of City & Guilds, and today we're at the Skills Hub at the Labour Party Conference in Liverpool, where I'm delighted to be joined by Seema Maholtra, MP for Feltham and Heston, and now newly appointed Minister of State for the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office. Welcome, Seema.

Seema: 0:42

Thank you, Kirstie. It's absolutely brilliant to join you again.

Kirstie: 0:45

No, lovely to have you here. And of course, now with a new role. This time last year, I was reminiscing about the fact that you were already in another new role and now you're in a new role again. Maybe just unpack this role a little bit for us so that people can understand what exactly is in your new brief.

Seema: 0:59

Well, look, thank you very much. And it is really exciting to have moved over to the Foreign Office. And the reason why is because you get a much better view of how things are working across government. And when it comes to something like skills, which I know we're going to be talking about in this podcast, what's really interesting is how that travels with you too. Because if there's one thing I think we know, it is that skills is a cross-government and has to be a cross-government endeavour. So it's relevant to the trade agreements we're signing and how we're building our skills and workforces in nations that we're looking to partner with. It's also relevant in terms of the work I continue to do in my Equalities brief, where I have maintained that wonderful role as one of the ministers for equalities, particularly focused on race, but working with Jacqui Smith and Bridget Phillipson. And that's important because it's recognising that tackling the barriers to opportunity sits at the heart of our work across government. So it's wonderful to be able to continue at some level the work on skills in my knee role as well.

Kirstie: 2:00

Oh, that's brilliant, and we're very glad to hear that as well. And you've always been such a champion for skills, so it's good to know that that's going to continue through into this new role. We are going to explore in this episode how can and how is the government actually, since it made its commitment last year at its first conference in power to have this much more joined up approach to tackling the UK skills challenges? So, as we know, skills are still high on the agenda at this part of conference, and as you've already said, Labour really do recognise how much they are central to delivering the ambition for the country. But it's one thing to recognise it, another thing to actually get on with delivering it. How do you think Labour are going to really turn that awareness into action? And do you think that's already happening?

Seema: 2:48

I do believe it is already happening, and it's happening because when you look at the missions that we came into government with, making sure that we're growing the economy, making sure that we are tackling barriers to opportunity, making sure that we're putting young people at the heart of so much that we do. It's recognising that how we look at skills and think about skills is about how we're also growing the economy. And that doesn't stop with young people. I think we all are aware of how much learning has to be a project for life and how we have to change some of the structures that we have to enable that learning for life. So it's also important, I think, for us to just take a checkpoint to see where it is we really started out. And starting out with one in eight young people, not in education, work, or training, seeing that nine million people, adults, are without the basic level of skills in English or in maths, and also that we have some of the lowest levels of technical qualifications at level four and level five in the OECD. That's a really, really tough legacy to be working to change. But what is important is how we've actually begun to build those foundations for change, how we've actually seen the commitment of £1.2 billion more to come in to skills over the next few years. And making sure that that funding supports, particularly in those areas and younger people of 16 to 19 and also 18 to 21 year olds and new types of interventions. And important that we are also rebalancing apprenticeships so that we're starting to see that move to redress what we saw, which was a shift away from the lower level apprenticeships, much more into those level two apprenticeships and foundation apprenticeships. Look, you've absolutely got to build the foundations on which people can then progress their own lives. If you don't have that and you don't have the ways in which they can take ownership of that development for themselves, how are you setting them up for success? And it is also important, the lifelong learning entitlement changes where we are seeing a rebalancing. So of course, if you're wanting to study for a degree, which we absolutely need to see, that people are supported with student finance to be able to undertake those qualifications. But if we're also to see the shifts to be more flexible in terms of more modular, in terms of learning opportunities, you also have to have a system of finance supporting that and people's choices. So that flexibility that's going to be coming in in just over a year is going to be an important part of enabling people to be able to take up those opportunities to learn.

Kirstie: 5:23

No, I think that's great, and there's no doubt that we hear everybody, employers, individuals themselves, employees calling for that flexibility. And you've mentioned there the need for lifelong learning and also the stubbornly high still needs that do exist today, despite all the efforts, as you say, that are starting to build those foundations. So that means we can maybe look forward to the post-16 white paper due out in the autumn, maybe saying a little bit more because my own view of the lifelong learning entitlement, great as a concept, but as it was currently designed, possibly won't do all that you're suggesting ideally should happen. So is there going to be an opportunity for us to really rethink the design of the lifelong learning entitlement so it really can hit all those different areas and those different sets of individuals?

Seema: 6:07

Well, you are absolutely right that there will be the Post-16 strategy coming out this autumn, and this was something that was also shared by Jacqui Smith, the Minister for Skills, earlier this summer, too. And look, it is important, and it is important that we have that ongoing engagement because one of the things we can see and we know is that government doesn't do this on its own. Skills, as well as being across government strategy, has to also be across society strategy. It has to be part of what we do with government and business working together, government and our unions, government and our training providers. And that's why some of the shifts that we're seeing, some of the work that I know we'll also talk about in terms of Skills England and looking at what's the data around what we need to change, what are some of the areas in which we know the previous government's work went wrong, where we saw apprenticeships moving away from the north more to the south, and more away from those who are most deprived to those who actually had more. And if you have a system in which the skills development and skills provision is unequal, then you're only going to perpetuate inequalities through life. So having new flexibilities underpinned by a new post-16 strategy is going to be an important part of the journey that we continue on. And I am looking forward to continuing as part of our ministerial team across government and also in the equalities work to continue to see that be the right foundation for the way we need to go.

Kirstie: 7:37

Good. Well, that's great to hear. And I think we're all going to be eagerly awaiting what's actually in that post-16 white paper, and as I say, hoping for some at least some early signs of some conversations about what really will work to create this much-needed lifelong learning culture, which I think is at the heart of some of what you're also saying, Seema. And and it sort of takes me now to the recent machinery of government changes where we've seen now skills move into DWP, of course, also with Jackie having oversight, so skills shifting into DWP, but still also with DfE as well for the pre-16 agenda. I mean that's quite a complex concept for people to sort of maybe get their heads around, although it does signal, as you were saying earlier, this joined up approach. How do you think it's going to work in reality? Do you think it is definitely going to be a force for good? And do you think it's actually going to create risks as well as opportunities?

Seema: 8:33

Well, I think my experience of government would suggest that wherever you are in government, you need to work to make things work. And that there is no perfect place. And I think this isn't a good example of where there have been two arguments around skills, haven't there? And it used to be that skills was in with business and industry, and then it was in DfE, now it's with DWP. And I think some of that is really a signal of where the next challenge is going to come from. So there isn't a right and a wrong. It is responding to where the challenges are today. And to recognise that making sure that we've got the join up in terms of how people are going to access opportunities is also clearer. And so when we're looking at the work that's been going on and was going on prior to the changes in government since we came into power as well, we saw DWP start to think differently about how do we support people into work with a much more concerted effort on the work part of DWP. And I think we all recognise that work is really a big thing for people. It's big in terms of giving you independence. It's big for well-being. It's big for opportunity, it's big for productivity, and it is big for families to have pride in people progressing and doing well. And it is a government's responsibility, as well as all of our responsibilities, to help people have access to work. And to see the wastage of human talent that we have seen and the numbers, the statistics demonstrating that, means that there's got to be handled with a degree of increased urgency. The reforms we're seeing to job centres, to actually bring together employment support, career support, and skills is actually part of that journey. And it is an important journey because when you see whether it's young people or it is people who have lost their job, who are wanting to go in to find a new opportunity, they should feel more hopeful and optimistic coming out of a job centre than they do going in. And that's what my constituents used to tell me was their experience. And that's what I want to see us as a government achieving. Because if you then walk into a job centre and it isn't just about, look, here are five jobs, which one do you want? When you're feeling actually, I feel really despondent, I feel really, you know, low self-esteem, having lost my job. That's a lot of emotions that people go through. How do you actually make sure that people are supported and encouraged and that human talent is the focus and people are encouraged to build the skills they have and to move forward because everybody has skills, everybody has skills they can take from their last workplace into a new workplace. That's the environment and the kind of uplifting nature of where I want to see our government services going. So I'm really optimistic actually that Skills has had a journey, Skills England really important, and we always knew that needed to be a cross-government endeavour. You've got the demand side, which really they're the Industrial Strategy Council and the work we're doing there, workforce strategies as well to reduce the reliance on immigration. But it is ownership by sectors too, of what does their workforce strategy need to look like? How are employers in their sectors going to be working towards that? How do we build in learning in a far more concerted and determined way? How do we then negotiate in a sense to say, look, we still need to recruit from the board, this is why and for how long? So there is work that has been going on and is continuing to go on with the work of the Labour Market Evidence Group that was also beginning and working alongside the other changes. That is tying four departments together to make sure that the demand side where we need the skills is tied up more with the supply side of how we're getting the skills. And I'm really optimistic with the leadership that we're seeing and also the commitment from departments collectively that this is going to be a game changer.

Kirstie: 12:28

I mean, you're absolutely right. Talent is everywhere, it's the opportunities that are. Absolutely. And we've got to use this agenda to create those opportunities. And you made another important point as well. We often talk about lifelong learning linked to lifelong employability. At the end of the day, for all the reasons that you said, people want to and need to carry on learning in order to be employable, and out of employability comes the ability to live well, have aspiration and hope, and all those good things you talked about. Nonetheless, putting skills in with DWP and a skills for jobs agenda is always a very good agenda. No one will ever or should ever argue with that. Surely we also got to be careful that we don't take our eye off the ball when it comes to other segments of the workforce and market that also still need to acquire skills, continually to upskill, given we are in the world we're in where people may have eight, nine, ten different jobs over the course of their lifetime and not necessarily go through a job centre route. And it's how we get that balance with the funding, with the policy, I think, isn't it? Yeah. That's going to be key.

Seema: 13:32

Look, you are right that we, if there's one thing that is the constant, it is going to be change. And that all of us are going to need to keep reskilling through our lives with the new challenges, with the new opportunities. Even politics needs to rethink. Even government needs to rethink. When we look at the macroeconomic and geopolitical changes, when we look at the technology shifts in the world, when we look at the fact that we're going to need to rethink how we create an offer and how we even deliver our services as a country, when we look at where we're behind the curve, and when we look at where we might be want to be ahead of the curve, look, government needs to learn and rethink, and politicians and ministers are needing to relearn and rethink. So we aren't excluded in some ways from the changes that we're seeing across the country. And that's why to make sure that we are supporting the best opportunities for people, the work that's going into Skills England and the voices that are part of that journey, the sectors that are part of that journey, where are the skills of the future going to need to come from? Where then do we need to invest in making that happen? And that's part of why some of the commitments we've already seen, the 625 million that's going into the construction skills, the new technical excellence colleges that recognises that vocational learning being really important and really much more in our grassroots at that level, so it's more accessible to and integrated with local industry, but also looking at the 100 million that's going into engineering training. Look, these are important steps because if we are to, in a sense, reduce our dependence on recruiting from abroad and also see a much much more functioning labour market in where we know the demand is coming. We want to build the 1.5 million homes. Yes, we want to see the investment going into our hospitals, our schools, we want to see infrastructure being built. We're going to need to support the workforce strategy for that. And so some of the work that I've seen with training providers across the country, and I've also seen the great work City & Guilds are doing, this is really important, and it is very much part of how we think innovatively across government. So you're right about how important it is to make sure that the new structures, whether that's around finance or is around modular learning and what's the content of that learning, to it continues to happen in partnership and it is a whole of government effort. But it recognises that accessing those opportunities for those who might be coming in to a job centre to seek work, they can also understand the opportunity to seek skills development, and that's really important. Yeah, no, I think that's a very fair point.

Kirstie: 16:18

And you've also touched a couple of times now on the role of Skills England, and as we know, Skills England was created really in June this year, although obviously Germanic, in terms of its concept much before that, and the whole point of it was to bring this long-term planning as you've already talked about. But how would you now characterize what success could look like for Skills England? Because in many respects, when Skills England was then part inside DfE, I think many people were quite surprised by that, maybe even slightly disappointed in a way, because it felt like it might be too narrow. But now all of a sudden, it does feel like is there an opportunity for it to take that wider brief, and you've already hinted at that yourself. So is that where do you see success for Skills England playing out now that it has got a slightly different hoe?

Seema: 17:01

Well, look, I I come back to what an organisation or a project's core purpose is, and for Skills England, we knew that we were behind the curve, we were behind other OECD countries, we were behind other European countries, we didn't have a national skills strategy which we desperately needed, and we didn't have a body that was then able to develop that and work alongside our combined authorities and also our business and industry to look to how we deliver on a skills strategy. So I'm really optimistic that we've got now a way in which we're looking at skills not being sidelined, actually much more integrated in the work of government. Skills England working alongside the Industrial Strategy Council and some connection between them. Skills England working alongside the Migration Advisory Committee and being part of that story for governments working together, linking skills and visa policy, making sure that we've got a more unified system as well and supporting that work so that we have a more integrated and unified education and training system. Look, this is all about people. Training and education, and doing that for a life for your whole life, is all about people. It's about making that journey for people to learn, go through learning, continue learning easier, simpler. So how we integrate and join up some of that work in government is part of the story of how we make access to learning easier for people through their life. And it is also an important story, too, about how we move away from a very competitive kind of culture that we saw under the previous government to a much more collaborative way of working. And what I want to also see is that we've got a more streamlined and seamless way in which young people, for example, could be moving from school, it could be into FE apprenticeships, then it could be into degrees or it could be into work, it could be into learning again later on. And as, for example, thinking about if it was a mum who has wanting to return to work, how can you have more modular learning that means that you don't have to learn all at once or make a huge change to your life because that is excluding rather than including. So inclusive growth and inclusive learning has got to be part of how we're building this new architecture of a learning environment. So again, it's still early days. We've only been in government a year, we've been laying the foundations, we've had legislation to get through parliament, and now I think that sense of how do we deliver is very much the question at the heart of the government's mind.

Kirstie: 19:37

No, and it and I suppose that kind of at now agenda, you've laid the foundations, it's how you're now going to act to put that in place, I think, is the essence of what you're saying there. And I think that's probably very much leads me nicely into the next scene, which is the role of employers. We've touched on employers already, employers obviously very much part of the Skills England narrative as well, but nonetheless we still hear a lot from employers who we know we need to engage even more in this agenda rather than what can sometimes be quite a lot of noise work. They're saying all the right things, but actually it doesn't necessarily evolve into action. What is it you think the government can do more? They've already looked at the flexibility around the levy, the growth and skills levy, although I still think there's more detail to come out from that. But what can the government maybe do more to incentivise employers even further to move themselves from just being noisy around skills as they often are as employers to actually committing hard cash to this agenda themselves?

Seema: 20:34

Well, look, you are absolutely right, and it is also the case that we had seen over the course of 20 years that the sort of proportion of employer investment in education and training had fallen by about a fifth, right? And what we do want to do is to make sure that we're laying the groundwork, to be working with employers and saying, look, if this is about partnership, it's also about you playing your part. You know, employers and sectors know more than government does about where are the workforce skills shortages, where might be the changes in the type of roles in your sectors, what is your workforce strategy, and how do you work in terms of how you're going to deliver on that strategy? How are sectors working with their employers, large and small? When I've been doing work with employers over many years in different roles as a shadow business minister and shadow skills and so on, and even today at Labour conference, I've just come from a session working and talking to businesses, and it's important in that general work of what we do, regardless of our briefs, that we're in touch and we're engaging. But look, I think what's important to recognise is that we've got to move away from a mindset where it's about government doing everything and businesses then receiving someone perfectly trained. Because actually, what you and I also know is that you learn on the job and actually the employer shaping how people are doing, especially earlier on in a role, or when they might be new to work and the workplace, actually can really help shape how well they perform, not just for that organisation, but if they move and do well in somewhere else in the future. But in actual fact, what you see is when workforce cultures are more engaging with some of the work we're doing around looking at pay gaps and workforce strategies to support more diverse workforces and as well back in the labour, exactly those who have had they who may have a disadvantage because access to the labour market is not an equal pathway. So how we do that and how we work with employers is important because I do recognise this is a tough time for employers. It's a really tough time, it's a tough time for government, it's a tough time for society, it's a tough time for politics. But I know it's tough for employers, it's tough for employers because we've had a lot of recovery to do, and it is also important to recognise that the way we're looking at how we're shifting on employment rights as well as the skills, it's a lot of change to embed, but it's an all-important change, and where we're all continuing to have dialogue with employers about how we do that, but also about how we renew our high streets for those that are in our high streets, how we renew opportunities for people close to home. And I also think it's important to recognise how we increase opportunities in all parts of the country, and this is why I think part of a place-based response is really important for making sure that opportunities are there for everybody everywhere, and why we have Skills England and others working with our combined authorities and also looking at how that funding can then be working with local authorities. Those are some of the conversations I continue to have, and also in relation to my own constituency, and I think that's a really important and positive direction of travel.

Kirstie: 23:42

No, absolutely, and and Seema, I think how I've characterised this podcast conversation we've been having, which could go on all day, but I know we haven't got all day, and you've got plenty to go on and do at the Labour Conference. I'm getting the sense that this past year has been a foundational year. Lots of things have been put in place, some action, but now we're gonna really start to see things take shape in respect to skills being front and centre and across all those different ministerial departments. That leads me very nicely then to back to you and your new role. And you touched on a little bit at the beginning. This is probably your first interview, I think, in this new role. So thank you. We're very, very privileged to have that. And it's probably your first role where although you said earlier on that skills will make a feature, it's possibly not as prevalent as an agenda as some maybe some of your other roles have been. Nonetheless, what impact do you hope to make in your new role as Minister for Foreign Commonwealth and and Development on this particular agenda?

Seema: 24:40

I think you would be surprised at how relevant it actually is, and I'll give you two examples. One is a conversation I had with one of the countries I work closely with now as part of my role as the new minister for Indo-Pacific and the oceans, in fact. But it was interesting because when I was talking to some of the leading industrialists from the country, the thing that was most interesting was how we have been doing the very work we spoke about, the labour market evidence group, linking skills and migration policy, because their challenge is how are they going to develop the workforce for the future and are finding themselves relying more on immigration and actually also having to think about how are the younger generations having access to opportunity. In some areas, some of the countries that I've been that I'm working with, and Nepal also, this was very recent, it's the younger generations who are also concerned about where is the opportunity for us. It's a changing world. Structures are not the same as they were, jobs are not linear in the same way. It's uncertain where's the investment in the jobs going to come from and how are we going to be part of that story. And then when you look at the trade partnerships that we've got with Australia, or indeed with India, the new trade agreement that we signed in July when I was present at that signing by both Prime Ministers at Chequers, look, in so much of what we're doing, including with our partnership with India, education and training is a part of that story. They're key, it's a key pillar in the work we're doing together as nations. Because getting those partnerships working for businesses working together, for people to be coming from those countries to experience Britain, for Britain's young people or workers to be able to go there to develop the skills and the workforces we need to make those projects a success, whether that's in education or in indeed in medicine or pharmaceuticals or in defence, the challenge of our workforce is being developed and how we now think about that across our nations together. Yes, and the importance of that for where we're looking at industries that are global is really important. It's a new opportunity, and I'm really pleased to be able to bring my experience and skills, my learning from you and the relationships with providers around the country, my experience in the Home Office to that role, and I'm really excited about what it's going to bring.

Kirstie: 26:58

Well, that's great, and that's great to know that you're going to be flying the flag and championing skills in those other countries. And as you just so brilliantly articulated, skills are global, and there are all sorts of different skills corridors that are clearly opening up and need to open up if we're going to all be successful in this new global world that we operate in. Seema, thank you so much for joining us today and what is a busy agenda for you and delighted to have that time with you. We look forward to talking to you again in the future.

Seema: 27:22

Great, it's been a pleasure.