UK Budget Bonus Episode featuring Anthony Impey MBE

“The NEET number should be a real national concern — nearly a million — and I think it’s actually higher, because it’s not capturing young people in zero-hour or gig work.”  — Anthony Impey, MBE

Set against the backdrop of the 2025 Autumn Budget, City & Guilds CEO Kirstie Donnelly MBE sat down with Anthony Impey MBE, Chief Executive of Be the Business—the organisation championing productivity across UK businesses. Anthony also chairs the City & Guilds Industry Skills Board. 

In this special bonus episode, Kirstie and Anthony unpack what the Chancellor’s announcements really mean for the skills system, employers, and the workforce of the future — with reflections recorded just hours after the Budget was delivered.

And yes… discover what being a lettuce picker and a young bus conductor have to do with this UK Budget episode. (You’ll be surprised — but it makes perfect sense.)

Be among the first to watch as they reflect on the key talking points from the Budget, including:

• What the announcements mean for skills policy and workforce development across the UK.
•  Key implications for employers, training providers, and individuals navigating the skills landscape
• The top omissions from the Budget and their potential impact on the sector.
• How policymakers, business leaders, and the sector can work together to drive productivity and foster lifelong learning.

For more podcasts, click here

Transcript

Budget Reax And Skills Focus

Kirstie Donnelly 0:00

Well, welcome to this first podcast. Literally immediately hot off the tails of the Chancellor's budget announcer there. I'm delighted to be joined by Anthony Impy, the Chief Executive, Be the Business. In fact, we'll come back to Anthony on that very issue of SMEs, which has actually got s had some good news in today's budget, but also importantly the chair of our industry skills board at City & Guilds. So delighted to have you here today, Anthony. Thank you for joining us.

Anthony Impey MBE 0:26

Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm very excited to be here on this sort of inaugural conversation that you're having after a sort of big fiscal event uh earlier on today.

Kirstie Donnelly 0:34

And it has been a big event. Let's be honest, it's been frailed for a long time. And of course, interestingly, we're here to focus on the skills aspect of the budget, and that's where I know we'll spend most of our time talking. But because we know this has been a budget that's been very much about taxes, and and largely what we we've heard a couple of hours ago was pretty much that. But that said, there was actually some really pretty good news for some of the announcements around skills, starting with the one that's around releasing more opportunity for small and medium-sized enterprises in respect to that devolve funding for MERS to be able to use in a much more flexible way. I mean, that's surely got to be good news for you and your own constituency.

SMEs, Growth, And Devolved Funding

Anthony Impey MBE 1:13

Yeah, I mean, first of all, you know, it's important to recognise that, you know, the possibly the toughest job in the country today is being for the Chancellor. You know, and you know, the Chancellor has had to make some really difficult decisions to put the country on the right footing. And I and there's some stuff in there that is difficult. You know, nobody wants to pay more tax. You know, it's a really unpopular thing to do. But you've got to make some difficult decisions. It's not a popularity contest. And so, you know, I envy the task that the Chancellor had. I think there's a lot of stuff in there. I think first and foremost, it's really good to hear small businesses speaking in budget.

Kirstie Donnelly 1:50

You know, and it's one of the first times in a long time in that very specific way. They often get a little mention, but where there's actually been some specificity, I've got that word out there. Wow. Uh, but you know, we're directly linked to funding and how that actually can be used for uh SMEs, I think that's actually pretty significant.

Anthony Impey MBE 2:07

I I agree. I think it's really good, you know, real reflection, I think, of recognition across government of the role small businesses play in the economy in general, but actually in terms of the role small businesses play in terms of growth. You know, whatever happens, you know, the burning platform that we we're standing on at the moment in this country is that we just don't have any growth. And we've got to have growth because if we don't, we can't pay for the things that we need, we can't pay for the public services that this country needs, we can't pay for the infrastructure. So we've got to we've got to have growth. The thing about small businesses is that their growth has this very positive impact in every corner of the country. And you sort of you mention that new funding for mayoral strategic authorities, you know, that's about getting funding to small businesses.

Kirstie Donnelly 2:56

Yeah, where they are. It's all about meet them where they are in that respect. Yeah, that'll be.

Anthony Impey MBE 3:00

I think it's so so important. You know, it's it's it's all very well to have sort of big central government proposals, but small businesses are in localities. Yeah, and they're really important to uh employment of local people, they're very much sort of centre of their local communities, and you've got to fund them where they are, isn't it?

How Local Skills Clusters Can Support SMEs and Boost Employment

Kirstie Donnelly 3:20

Absolutely. And look, we're delighted from that point of view as well, because like yourself, we're a big advocate of SMEs and the role that they play. Let's be honest, they make up pretty much the majority of our employment in the UK. As you were just touching on growth and productivity, which is another one of your big themes, Anthony. But you know, from my perspective, we're delighted because at City and Gilles everything's about skills for jobs. So this is about getting those local skills in those local areas and making sure that people can be in good jobs as a result of it. So I think it's now how we work with those local mural elect authorities and really understand what their needs are going to be and how do how does that matching happen? I mean, have you got any views on that? Have you got any views on how you think SMEs will tap into that funding and how that could work?

Anthony Impey MBE 4:10

I mean, first of all, I think I mean I really like the skills for jobs. I think it's really, really important that connection. I think there's also something about skills for growth. Like, how do we drive growth through a really well-performing skill system? And so I I think that's really important. I think this piece around localizing it and getting the money to place is really important. But the thing that I see, again, time again again, is how you know small businesses often operate in quite local clusters. And so I think that the the danger here is that we just think, well, you know, we'll we'll give the money to sort of large regions and they'll they'll target that money correctly. I think we actually probably need to think on an even smaller scale. You know, how do we get money to sort of local clusters of small businesses?

Kirstie Donnelly 5:00

I'm so almost a bit like a GTA model, but for but for small businesses. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Anthony Impey MBE 5:05

Okay, there's a really good example that um I've come across in Cumbria, um, and it's uh a sort of consortium of electrical engineering businesses. It's called Electrac. And these businesses have come together partly because they've got a big employer on their doorstep that's hoovering up all the talent, and actually that what they've done is they've worked with their local college to recruit and train local young people into these electrical engineering jobs. And what's what's really exciting about it is that for a long time this big employer on their doorstep was hoovering up all the talent. What's happening now is that their all the surplus talent from their program is now going to this big employer. So they kind of reverse this flow of talent. Um, and I think that's really important when you're thinking about how do we engage with small businesses. It's those local clusters where actually small businesses are really uh really able and capable of sort of coming together, yeah, working with their local college and addressing these very specific.

How the Youth Guarantee Supports Young People into Work

Kirstie Donnelly 6:04

Yeah, no, I think it's a r-cause actually at the end of the day, we all know that you know every employer is competing for talent, but equally people do move around the talent field, so to speak. And actually, so for every one you might lose, you can gain one. So the more you work in that collaborative model, industry by industry or sector by sector, as you say, to collate that around particular areas of employment need, I think that that's a that's a really good, really interesting model. Well, just on that actually, and sort of therefore moving on from the specific announcement today, unless there's anything else you want to add around that, around SMEs, there was also another announcement around youth guarantee and a jobs guarantee scheme, which I think we both found very interesting when we were talking earlier, because this is really again and ties to Skills for Jobs, it's about helping young people, 18 to 21-year-old specifically, who've been on universal credit for some some time. So it's obviously really driving at the NEETs issue, yeah, trying to attract them back into work rather than be on universal credit. So, I mean, again, great sweet spot for sitting girls, great opportunity for you know your partners who you work with in terms of being able to get at that young talent aspirationally to try and get them back into work. I mean, that really is quite a new initiative, but it smells and feels very much like maybe a YTS. YTS is back just under a new name.

Anthony Impey MBE 7:28

Yes, I mean uh you know, very different circumstances. You know, I think the challenge that businesses face, and small businesses in particular, is you know, every day you're managing risks. Actually, every organization is managing risks. In a smaller business, you've got fewer resources. So this risk management piece is the thing that occupies a lot of your sort of headspace. And that's one of the big problems with small businesses sort of taking a risk on talent, you know, because you know they're you know, trying to balance, you know, the running their business efficiently, but also recognising sort of they they want to play their part in the local community, so they want to create local employment for local people. But if that's too much of a risk for them, they just won't do it. And I think what this is is a really positive step to help de-risk that. Yes. And to sort of share some of that risk between, you know, priority that the government have, which is to reduce this NEET number. You know, the NEET number, this should be a real uh national concern, you know, nearly a million, yeah, absolutely. And by the way, I think that number's higher because I don't think it's capturing uh young people who are in zero-hour contract work or gig economy work. So, you know, that number's gonna be gonna be higher. And we need to be really worried about that because that's the that's the absolutely workforce of the future. And so you need these these opportunities. So it's a government priority. It's really good to see that the government is is putting money behind this. Yeah I think small businesses are gonna be really keen to engage. You know, we were talking about um youth training scheme earlier, partly because when I did my I did this tour of the country and travelled around the country. That's right.

Kirstie Donnelly 9:02

I mean when you did that, that's uh what was it?

Anthony Impey MBE 9:04

Six six cities, five days, hundred SMEs. I actually met 117 during the course of the week. Uh and um, you know, lots of people talked about youth youth training schemes.

Kirstie Donnelly 9:17

YTS I mean I started one of my first jobs um when I started in this sector 35 years ago was actually helping deliver what was the new then YTS scheme that was run by the Manpower Services Commission. So, and they were really, really good. They were really valuable, they weren't seen as the second rate system to somebody who's now gone on to Do Universe. They were really seen as that work-based route that that, again, a bit like apprenticeships, you could try before you buy, but the but you were earning and learning as you went, and and employers valued them and the individuals valued them. So we can create that value around whatever these well, this youth guarantee, as it's being known, then I think it can only be a really good, positive move forward.

Anthony Impey MBE 9:59

I mean, I I just heard during that week lots of businesses saying, you know, if the government could provide this, yeah, we would create those opportunities. So they've listened, maybe. So try to say? Yeah. I think I think it's good. It's it all is in the execution.

Why Durable Skills Are Key to Supporting Young People and the Workforce

Kirstie Donnelly 10:16

Do you think though that interestingly, uh and I agree with that, but I'm talking about 35 years ago, 35 years on, we've had a lot of things happen, not least COVID. And I'm sorry to take us back to COVID, but coming out of COVID, we know that a lot of young people have suffered on lots of different levels, either in their education, what they got shortchanged on or felt they did, their mental health and well-being. Do you think there is now a fundamental issue still with helping young people have aspiration to want to go to work in the first place? And therefore, is there something that's almost needed even before this, which is how we help young people understand there is something called work, yeah, and actually it can be hugely beneficial to you in a way that 35 years ago uh uh you know that wasn't even in question. People absolutely knew they had to go to work, they wanted to go to work, and work is what you did. Yeah. Do you think we've got a bit of a problem there?

Anthony Impey MBE 11:07

Yeah, I mean it's it's difficult because there's a side of the argument that says, well, you know, young people are unwilling to work. And yet when I talk in schools, or we ran a program in in East London where we trained young Londoners to start work in in uh small businesses. And actually that I spoke to lots of young people who were really ambitious, who were really determined. So I think there's always a danger that we sort of say put them, cast them in this light. Yeah, I I think what you know, where I think there is a challenge though, is I think young people very often lack sort of some of those core skills that you you you need that you need in what's the soft skills, as we used to call them, but the durable skills we call them. Soft skills, durable skills, core skills, power skills, yeah, yeah, all sorts of things. Um human skills, human skills, um, but but whatever you call them, actually they're really important. Absolutely. And I wonder whether that's the thing that's missing. And you know, it's probably something that we need to look at in schools and universities.

Kirstie Donnelly 12:09

I'm amazed the number of uh young people coming out of university that you know don't have resilience or or project management or some of those skills communication. No, it's true. I mean, actually, again, it's one of the things that we're looking at in City & Guilds. How do we create that durable skills framework? Because the reality is they're durable because they last a lifetime. Yeah, you and I have them, we've built on them, we'll carry on building on them, but you have to start somewhere in terms of how you start to learn and have the experience that gives you that resilience, that opportunity to practice your negotiation, your communication. And I do think that is um that's actually quite key.

Anthony Impey MBE 12:43

Okay. I also I also wonder whether, you know, we often talk about these let's call them durable skills.

Kirstie Donnelly 12:48

I like them. I the reason I like durable skills is because they're durable, they will last your lifelong learning career. And all you're doing is practicing getting more of them at different levels as you go through your career. That's why I like durable.

Anthony Impey MBE 13:01

Don't have to be durable, but let's so durable, let's go with durable. I I I see the rationale. I wonder whether actually there's a bigger job to be had on durable skills. You know, we're and we're talking a lot about young people here. Yeah, but I also wonder whether actually if you could equip more people with durable skills, then actually you help the wider workforce become more productive.

Kirstie Donnelly 13:22

Absolutely.

Anthony Impey MBE 13:22

And you you create some of the growth throughout organisations. You know, growth isn't just something that CEOs like you and I need to do. Absolutely. We know that actually if we want our organizations to grow, we need our whole team behind us and thinking about growth and efficiency and productivity and all those things that make an organization better at what it does. And I wonder whether the key to doing some of this is unlocking durable skills. It's not here in today's budget, but I wonder whether you know some of the things around skills and growth.

Kirstie Donnelly 13:54

No, I think that's right. I think you're and actually, although, although it's not in the budget directly, of course, we not long ago had the white paper, you know, the post-16 white paper. And I think in that kind of creation of V-levels, I'm almost starting to wonder how much that durable skills aspect can come into those V-levels, which or of itself can almost be part of what we're seeing in the mix here. So Antonine, we know there wasn't quite as much detail around the skills and growth levy that we might have anticipated. That's largely because they have talked about that before. But of course, the new focus on SMEs and the use of some of that funding to be driven in that direction was certainly a positive statement today.

Why £725 Million is a Good Starting Point

Anthony Impey MBE 14:40

Yeah, 725 million, which is a good starting point. I think look, this is a serious commitment to this, and um, I think we should be really encouraged by it. Uh, you know, there's definitely tilt to youth in terms of this this budget, and you can see it here, you know, it's a it's 725 million, but it's for under 25 year olds. So there's a focus there that that we've not seen necessarily before, but this is a good starting point.

How Short Courses and Continuous Learning Support Career Progression

Kirstie Donnelly 15:12

And actually, again, interestingly, in the budget, they talk about short courses being introduced from April 26th. Again, there's not a lot of detail yet, but I think it's another recognition of the point you're making, which is they're recognising that there are some sectors that are going to require, especially as we look at the number of jobs that are going to disappear because of tech and AI, as well as the sort of augmentation of where we have tech and AI working with different job roles. But I think those short courses are really helpful in recognising there are skills, bridges that are sometimes needed to help people transition either from one sector to another or just add on a skill. So take an electrician, they may then have an extra skill to become an EV electrician, alongside being a domestic electrician. So there's all of that that I think I hope is playing out into this uh budget a little bit as well.

Anthony Impey MBE 15:59

I think it's I think it's really healthy as well because your job and your career and and what you do for work, you don't accomplish success by doing sort of fixed-term qualifications. Yeah. You do that when you start, you know, when you go to school. But and and it certainly helps with sort of big transitions in your career. But actually, if you want to progress, actually you've got to learn little bits a lot of the time. Absolutely. You know, we and we know we know from you know those businesses that are more productive than others they've invested that they do that.

Kirstie Donnelly 16:32

They've invested in that continuing professional development. No, that's that's right.

Anthony Impey MBE 16:35

I was at a round table, chairing a round table in the Southwest a few weeks ago, and it was really interesting. We had a bit of a discussion about leadership and management, and one of the one of the small businesses around the table was saying, actually, we there's the a sort of short leadership and management course that we think is better than than the corresponding managership. And the reason why we do this is because it takes six months as opposed to two years, and we we pay for the leadership management course, but the cost of paying for it is offset by the fact that we get there and return faster.

Kirstie Donnelly 17:10

Yeah, return faster.

Anthony Impey MBE 17:11

Yeah, and I think you know, businesses have got a really important part to play in the skills landscape. This is you know, the solution cannot all come from government. No, absolutely. No, the government can create the framework, and they're really good at convening, and they should absolutely set sort of a north-style policy sort of direction, north star. But but actually businesses have to be there to do this, you know, and we have to create the right environment for doing this and for for small businesses as much as bigger businesses.

Kirstie Donnelly 17:39

No, I think that's right. So, of course, another angle we saw announced today, uh Anthony, was around the national living wage. And of course, there was a whole series of announcements for different age groups, but particularly pleasing again to see that emphasis on uh young people going up £8 an hour in order to you know encourage potentially more uh young people into apprenticeships.

National Living Wage

Anthony Impey MBE 18:05

Yeah, I mean look, the the chancers taking the recommendations from the low-pay commission here and and applied them, and the minimum wage for younger apprentices was very low. So this is just uh you know much needed adjustment. It is definitely going to be difficult for some businesses, particularly those businesses that sort of have more sort of low-paid staff, like in retail, hospital, like in hospitality. But you know, it's probably the thing that we needed to do. Without shadow of a doubt, there will be some challenges, but it's it's the right thing to do.

Kirstie Donnelly 18:38

You said at the beginning, it's always about hard choices. I mean, I wonder how the Chancellor is feeling. I mean, she'll must be feeling a sense of relief she's delivered it. We all know what it's like to have those very big moments in our careers where we're delivering something. She must feel a sense of relief, but but um watching the budget play out, I mean, she's gonna get some tough feedback from it, isn't she? Yeah, um from that point of view. Yeah, but yeah, I think, you know, from a skills perspective, I think they have remained reasonably consistent all the way along in saying how important skills is to underpinning growth and productivity. And I think this budget continues to suggest that is the direction of travel for them.

Anthony Impey MBE 19:18

I I completely agree. I I mean you're right, you know, you I think any leader of any organisation will look at what the Chancellor's done today and been through to get to today. And you know, if you're if you're a leader leader and objectively look at that process, it is not an an easy thing that she's she's done. And so I think that that deserves sort of recognition. You can't please everyone, you know, you've got to, you know, sometimes you've just got to make difficult decisions that will will upset people. And I and I think she has she's lent into into the process and done done what the country requires and taken that sort of longer term view. But I think it's really encouraging that skills play such an important part of today's sort of budget. So I I think there's a lot of positive stuff that sort of sets down foundations of of what we need from a skills point of view, be quite encouraged by this sort of central role that the whole skill system has played today.

Kirstie Donnelly 20:15

Yeah, look, I think that's a perfect way to finish this podcast thing. Time to finish already. Time to finish already.

Anthony Impey MBE 20:22

I mean Scotty, can you tell us what your first job was? Because you say, you tell us, and I'll say what my first job was at.

Kirstie Donnelly 20:30

My first ever job was at age 12.

Anthony Impey MBE 20:32

Yeah.

Kirstie Donnelly 20:32

When after school I would go and pick lettuces on the local letters form. A lettuce picker. A lettuce picker.

Anthony Impey MBE 20:38

How how we how what was your KPI like?

Lettuces and Buses

Kirstie Donnelly 20:39

Oh, you mean my cape? How many lettuces did you how productive was I? I was pretty good actually. I got to understand. Got to understand. I was given a very sharp knife, page 12. You took the letters in it. And it wasn't just cutting the letters, it's how you bagged the lettuces up. That was because the letters still had to bag it. Yes, because I had the lettuce had to breathe, so that I can remember. I can remember something about the letters having life, exactly. So that was genuinely that. And actually, do you know it's funny, I often reflect on that. I mean, I literally did it because it was up the road from where I lived, it was on the way back from school, I knew the the person who owned my family, knew the person who owned the farm. It was just a little way that I earned a little bit of money, a couple of nights after after school, didn't interfere too much with the homework, but I loved it. I loved being outdoors, I loved being with the other, you know, much, much older than me from the workers and the banter, even though I did most of it went over my head. But I think I've-12 years old, yeah. But I probably learned a lot more there about resilience, yeah, about relationships. Yeah. And I think it's a shame actually. I do genuinely think that a lot of young people don't have that opportunity quite as early. And I think there is something that we have lost over the years by making it so much harder for small businesses, local businesses like that, to take on young people like me from their pocket money. Yeah, yeah. Um, but anyway, Colin, you were going to say what it's gonna be something really intellectual. I know it is. No, it really isn't.

Anthony Impey MBE 22:02

Uh my first job, our next door neighbour but one, their family owned the local bus company. Wow. And my first job was and I was 14 years old. Okay. So I started earlier than you, you see. You're a late starter. Lazy, I would say. Uh, and my first job was as a bus conductor. I was 14 years old. I was a bus conductor. Oh my gosh. So I had like one of these machines where, you know, like it came out. Yeah, like to turn the dials, press the button. It would be so illegal today, wouldn't it? It would be totally illegal. Um, not because I was I was doing anything wrong. No, no, no, but just a 14-year-old being on a business. Yeah, well, that's true. That is very true. And and so I I did this, and uh I I was I was terrible at it. And so I think I did that job for about three months, and then they put me in the office, and I wasn't allowed on the buses anymore. Uh, but that was my first job. Brilliant. That was my first job. Well, that is great.

Kirstie Donnelly 22:59

I see, I knew it would be a bit more intellectual than mine. You know, I'm cutting a lesson bag than it, you're actually matching your money to your tickets.

Anthony Impey MBE 23:05

No, but I did it badly. I did it badly. I was technically I was five when I was 14.

Kirstie Donnelly 23:12

So you had that experience. See, that built resilience. That built resilience.

Anthony Impey MBE 23:15

It's so super resilience. But right, I think there's you know, I think, you know, if more businesses could offer those opportunities. Absolutely. Because what we were doing wasn't unusual like we laugh about it, it wasn't unusual. It wasn't at all. You know, or you know, you do like the free newspapers in the in the evening. Absolutely.

Kirstie Donnelly 23:32

We have lost something in in not allowing that to, or the whatever the red tape is that's come along, or uh something has happened, but you never know, maybe, maybe some of this flexibility that's coming back in. And it goes back to what you were saying earlier as well, and is that this is a moment I think we've got in time where there has to be more collaboration with local businesses and with policy, and actually local businesses to have their voice heard a little bit more and say, no, let's take some of this red tape away so that we can make some of these things easier.

Anthony Impey MBE 24:03

I think small businesses in particular are brilliant at doing that. When you give them the freedom freedom and you you trust that they will do their very best job, yeah, they do some extraordinary things. Like the Electrac example that I gave earlier is just a great example of businesses say, we have got a problem and we need to fix this ourselves. And I think we should be encouraging more businesses to do that. And if we do that, we're gonna end up with the growth we need. Now, this you know, the thing that is more important than anything else is growth and productivity. We've got to get that right. If we do that, then we don't have this you know really difficult zero-sum game where you have winners or losers because actually you pay for the services that we want from additional tax increases that come from the growth. So I suppose I'm finished today feeling quite optimistic that that actually you know we've got the foundation and that there's you know there's an opportunity for growth. But how about you?

Kirstie Donnelly 25:02

I do feel optimistic.

Anthony Impey MBE 25:03

I feel like I'm interviewing you.

Kirstie Donnelly 25:04

No, no, no, no, no, but I do I do feel I think you have to be optimistic in this sector anyway, because and at the end of the day, we're privileged to work in a sector where, as I say, skills change lives and skills lead to jobs. And so you've got to take every opportunity you can when you're given a budget like this to work it to your advantage. And the more we can do that collectively at a national and local level, the more we'll get to drive that level of productivity that uh and growth that you're talking about. So no, and if all else fails, Anthony, we can always go back to being a bus conductor and a lettuce picker. Well, where we go. So on that note, on that note, thank you very, very much as ever. It's a delight to talk to you and it's been a great conversation. And let's see what we'll be talking about when the next budget comes round. Thank you, Anthony.

Anthony Impey MBE 25:50

Thanks, Kirstie.