The Jolts That Reshape Work and Identity - Anthony Klotz

Most people think quitting is the story. It isn’t.

Before people leave their jobs, something usually happens first. A pause. A realization. A moment that makes it impossible to keep going the same way. Five years ago, Dr. Anthony Klotz coined The Great Resignation. But the real story was never about quitting. It was about clarity.

In the Season 5 premiere of Why I Left, Anthony returns to unpack what actually drives career change. Not slow dissatisfaction. Not calculated pros and cons. But jolts. Sharp moments that disrupt how we see our work and ourselves.

Anthony is an organizational psychologist at UCL School of Management and author of the upcoming book Jolted. We explore the six types of jolts that shape careers, the rise of reluctant stayers, the hidden cost of return-to-office mandates, and how AI may trigger the next wave of career reshuffling.

If you have ever felt a sudden shift at work. If you have questioned whether you still belong where you are. If you are navigating a pivot or protecting your wellbeing in a tight labor market. This conversation is for you.

Press play.

Enjoy!

Stay connected with Anthony Klotz

Website: https://anthonyklotz.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aklotz/

Purchase Jolted: https://anthonyklotz.com/the-jolted-book

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Transcript

Brian Aquart (00:22)

Hello and welcome back to Why Left Season 5. Five years ago, one prediction changed the way the world talked about work. And in many ways, it was the impetus for creating this show. Dr. Anthony Klotz coined the phrase, the great resignation. But this time, we're not talking about headlines. We're talking about the moments behind them. The jolts, the shifts, the clarity.

and the courage it takes to rethink the life you've built. He predicted a movement. You all helped me tell its human side. Now he's back with a new framework for understanding the jolts that reshape our relationship with work and purpose. Let's go check it out.

Brian Aquart (01:10)

All right. Welcome back to season five of why I left. I'm excited that you all are with us today. It's for sure going to be a pivotal season for the show. Now I'm also excited to have a former guest return. our guest today is Dr. Anthony Klotz, who is a organizational psychologist, professor of management at UCL school of management and the researcher who coined the great resignation in May of 2021.

It's a term that reshaped the global conversations about work, meaning, quitting, and choice. Now his research on resignations has appeared in Harvard Business Review, MIT Sloan Management Review, the Wall Street Journal, NPR, CNN, and much more. And our season two conversation remains one of the foundational moments of this show. Now Anthony returns as he prepares to release his new book, Jolted.

which is a transformative look at the shocks that push us to reevaluate our careers and lives and what to do with them. So now Anthony, welcome back to why I left. How are you doing? I can't believe it's been five years.

Anthony (02:23)

Time flies. Thanks, Brian. It's absolutely great to be back and I'm doing well and looking forward to the conversation.

Brian Aquart (02:29)

Yeah. So now you coined the great resignation five years ago. True. It's the foundation of this show and the world has been living with that idea ever since. And there's been a few kind of spin-offs here and there, but the great resignation is the one that really stuck. when you look back on that moment now, what stands out to you the most?

Anthony (02:50)

Yeah, I think the thing that probably stands out the most and I sort of felt this way at the time. But now looking back, I really feel like it that, you know, in late 2020 and then early 2021, we're still very much in the pandemic, but

to ease our way out of it. Just that that term, the great resignation really resonated because it captured this general sentiment that individuals, how they were feeling about their relationship with work had.

changed in many cases over the past year as a result of the pandemic and some of the jolts within it. And right under the surface, people didn't really know how to talk about that. Like what was a term that I can use to sort of capture how I'm feeling in this moment. And I think that's why the great resignation that term has it's like it's a special term or anything like that. You could even argue and some have pointed out the term resignation is a bit boring. Like couldn't I have like, you know, made it a little bit more dynamic or something like that. But I didn't know it was going to go viral. And so I think the reason

that's had that staying power is when it came out, it really resonated with how people were feeling about work. And that doesn't mean that they were necessarily thinking about quitting, but they were thinking, this is a moment in time where I'm not ready to go back to the old normal. Can we stop and have a conversation about that? And the great resignation in many ways allowed us to have this public conversation about how work has changed, how we feel about those changes, what we want out of work going forward.

Brian Aquart (04:13)

Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. And I think, you know what, it really stuck with me because what I wasn't understanding was why people would leave stability during a time of instability. so hearing you put language to that and obviously reading your research and I'll be honest, as you know, I nerded out on your stuff. I was just so intrigued And then obviously start this And so, you know, you shared during our first conversation,

your full kind of professional arc, from the factory floor at general mills I remember this, like you were in the moment at the time we were at, we had our initial conversation and you've really become one of the more recognized voices in organizational psychology. How, how is living and teaching now in London? Cause you know, if folks will recall it, you had your own resignation moment at that time. Right? So now you're in London.

Anthony (04:59)

Yep.

Brian Aquart (05:02)

How has this added a new dimension to how you see the world

Anthony (05:09)

Yeah, I mean, it's really been something that's been a bit of a gift ⁓ professionally, not in terms of the visibility, because I've never really thought of myself as a thought leader or aspired to be. I think that's important, but that isn't necessarily, I think, a calling for me. But being able to be in the classroom when I'm interacting with students and say, like, hey, here's the way that these theories that I'm going to teach you.

play out in the real world. And when I'm talking to executives and saying, I know these are just theories about how the way the world works. But when we put them into practice, you know, here's how they can help us understand how workers are experiencing their lives in their work. And to have being the person who coined the great resignation, which really was just based on observing some things going on in the real world, and then applying some of the theories that have been long studied in my field and some of my own research, and then coming up with a prediction.

And in that case, the prediction was right. But of course, like many times our predictions are wrong. And then we have to say, why are those predictions wrong? And dig into it a little bit more. So I'm a big believer in evidence-based leadership and making decisions based on facts and applying theories to try to help us understand the world, develop new theories. And it's just given me a lot of like a wonderful example to show how that works. And then that example goes along with a lot of credibility too. It's nice when before the class starts or before I meet.

with an executive team, can look me up and see that, okay, this person has this level of credibility, so maybe we'll listen to him a little bit more than we otherwise would.

Brian Aquart (06:41)

like that. Also too, our original conversation, one of the things you mentioned was that the pandemic offered this moment of clarity. And what do you think that clarity revealed about your own career path and how did it lead to your move overseas for those who may be getting introduced to you for the first time?

Anthony (07:06)

Yeah, so, you know, the overseas move was definitely something that came out of the pandemic and a lot of clarity around it. I don't know that it was an epiphany, but one thing that, you know, both my wife and I had talked about for a long time was wanting to expatriate. Even early in my career at General Mills, I was trying to get them to like send me overseas somewhere. And two of the qualifications for doing that was being an engineer and speaking a second language.

I have neither of neither of those things. I don't possess either of those. So I actually did an expat assignment to Canada, to Ontario, ⁓ with the company, but, wanted to move further, further afield and had traveled to London a lot of times, with students on study abroad programs and just really fell in love with the city. And so it was during lockdown when we had lots of time to talk and think about this, what felt like a pivot point in maybe the world, our lives and so forth and saying, what do we want to do?

Brian Aquart (07:33)

You

Anthony (08:01)

in that next chapter. And it also was a time that I think people were empowered and emboldened to make bigger decisions. And so, of course, pointing the great resignation, I was talking to a lot of individuals who were saying, I made these big life pivots. And I'm sure that gave me some courage to do the same. At the same time, it was pretty targeted as well. Like I was happy. I mean, I still love the department I was in at Texas and was enjoying being there.

but there was something special about London. And so I really only targeted jobs in London. And we thought if this works out fantastic, if not, then we keep going on and it's fine. yeah, and there was, I was actually talking to a reporter from the Financial Times at the time about some of these stories about the Great Resignation. Her name is Polita Clark. And she was one of the first people I told that I was going to actually move to London. And instantly she said, can we make that?

Can we run that in the financial times? I said, well, I haven't even really told everyone yet. And she was very gracious. And she said, OK, I'll wait. But as soon as you have, let's run it. And so she was the first one to say, hey, the great resignation guy got bitten by the great resignation and is ⁓ moving abroad.

Brian Aquart (08:59)

Hahaha

Yeah, no, I love that. So as you mentioned, you know, in, in 21, you know, we're obviously talking about mass resignations. Now we're in 2026. You know, it's a little different vibe now and you're getting ready to come out with a new book, which explores what happens before and after those moments. You call it a jolt, So what made you shift from some of these macro trends to these micro life altering experiences?

Anthony (09:41)

Yeah, well, we'll all first say we are a long ways away from the great resignation. feels in some ways like more than five years in terms of what the labor market looks like right now. In some ways, it's still a healthy labor market. But you know, what makes the news are these big layoffs. And we just have to look this morning at, you know, Amazon and UPS and organizations that are laying off large numbers of people. And in some cases, the organizations are saying we overdid it back during that great resignation period. And so the pendulum is shifting back.

organizations have more power. And so I'll talk in a second about the relevance of that for for Jolts and why some of the elements of the great resignation are just as relevant in in this different labor market than they were back then. But where the idea of this book came from was essentially when when the term great resignation went viral, there was a lot I was doing a lot of media and I had some offers to

you know, publisher, publishers or editors or agents reach out and say, you should quickly write a book on on this. And really, I was thinking to myself, and I said to them, I said all I had to say, like, like, that was it. Like, that's all I got. Like, there's no like, you know, 18 chapters here or 12 chapters here, you know, my greatest hits I put out in that prediction and

Brian Aquart (10:53)

Right?

Anthony (11:04)

you know, here's the four reasons that I predicted it and so forth. And so during the couple of years afterwards, as I continue to talk to the media, continue to interact with students, executives, workers, and so forth, I started to explain more and more, you know, the different theories of why people quit that we have, why people stay, and in this liminal space that we often get in after a jolt. And I would notice that as I was sharing this research, some of it my own, but a lot of it the research of those

academics who came before me and are working alongside me. There were lots of light bulbs going off for these, for the audiences. So if I talk about a concept like turnover contagion, when I was talking about concepts like, you know, jolts, which are also known as career shocks and how they can really change how people feel about work quickly. When I was talking about boomerang employment, all of these, what I would call characters in our academic understanding of turnover, which is my favorite literature and all of management.

there were a lot of people saying, boy, you know, this is such a great insight that you had. And I would say it's the great resignation was my insight, but it was really just based on an understanding of why people quit their jobs, why they stay. And if you look at some of the core elements of why I made that prediction that we were going to have a wave of resignations, it was because these, these jolts had happened, these different levels from, working remotely to, working in person differently to

looking at the news every night and seeing these like really shocking, scary stories about what was going on with the pandemic, which makes us reflect on life and death and so forth. These are just different kinds of jolts. And people found that really insightful. And then I thought, okay, there's actually probably an opportunity here for me to take a book and really, I don't want to say it's like a love letter to this body of literature on turnover that I really, really like, but it, but it's really taking that.

my research and the research of others and saying, you know, we can really understand ourselves and our relationship with work and the ups and downs of it better with this knowledge in our hands. And of course, the challenge, ⁓ which, which only time will tell whether I did a successful job of translating academic speak, you know, in literature into something that's the, the average person finds engaging and insightful, but, that was the goal. And so, you know, a lot of, ⁓

Brian Aquart (13:12)

You

Anthony (13:25)

academics have on their career bucket list to write a book, which makes a lot of sense. But it wasn't on mine. I have some other items in there, but that wasn't on mine. But it ended up being a great opportunity and a great experience. And at the end of the day, I hope the book is useful. I hope it gives people some tools that make their lives better and make their relationship with work a little bit healthier. So we'll see.

Brian Aquart (13:50)

No, and I appreciate that. And as we love to talk a little bit about jolts and human behavior. So in, this new book, you argue that jolts like these, these sharp unexpected moments that you mentioned, they often drive our biggest career decisions. So if you could tell our audience, how do you define a jolt and why do you think that they matter now more than ever?

Anthony (14:16)

Yeah, it may be helpful, you know, as I explained what a jolt is to contrast it against our understanding of why people quit before we discovered jolts. And I'll use the terms jolts and shocks sometimes interchangeably because we do so in the literature. But but for you know, we've studied why people quit their jobs for over 100 years. And really, during that time, we came up with a really good understanding or we felt we did of why people quit their jobs. And it had to do with two forces that are pretty intuitive that if I asked you

or anybody on the street, why do people quit their jobs? They would probably come up with these two forces and they would say, the bad parts of your job build up over time. Usually slowly, you become more dissatisfied with your work. You get a bad boss, like whatever it could be, it adds up to a point where you're pretty frustrated and you're ready to walk out the door. These are push factors, these negative things that are pushing you away from work. At the same time, there are these more desirable opportunities out there.

Maybe you want to go back to school, start a new business. Maybe there's another employer out there who would love to hire you or multiple employers. So these good opportunities are pulling you away. So people generally quit through this rational process of weighing up, you know, how brown is the grass in my current job versus green? You know, what, what are the problems here and what are my opportunities? And then they calculate a ratio very logically. And when the ratio is it's the benefits of leaving exceed the benefits of staying.

then I'm going to go. It's really calculated. And that's really useful. And often you'll see news stories about here's the top 10 reasons why employees quit their jobs. And you'll see a lot of these push factors in there. Makes complete sense. The only problem is we were making all these observations, researchers were seeing all these observations, where that model didn't work, where people were making really irrational decisions. And not just about leaving, but about staying. Where happy employees would suddenly leave their jobs.

were really disgruntled employees who have better opportunities stayed at their jobs. Like what's going on? This push and pull model doesn't seem to work. And there were a couple of researchers starting with an individual who was studying entrepreneurship back in the seventies. And then especially in the nineties with a couple of researchers at the University of Washington, a Mitchell and Lee who made this observation that often people make these major career changes somewhat irrationally. It's not based on

Brian Aquart (16:32)

Mm.

Anthony (16:34)

the logic of push and pull. It seems to be based on some event that happened to them and that caused them to change the way that they feel about work. And they started looking for what are my other opportunities here and maybe I would quit without and even any opportunities. And there was, this was a big discussion during the great resignation, ⁓ quitting with no other opportunities. And, but, but as you point out, we're in a different time now that

most of us, for most of us, the external job opportunities are not as plentiful as they were a few years ago. And so our jolts necessarily is relevant now as they were back then. You know, I would argue, of course, I'm also, you have a book coming out on this, but I would argue they're going to be, they're more relevant and they may even be, you know, even more relevant than the great resignation here shortly. And part of that is, you know, for most of the time, for most of us, for most of our careers,

quitting is not an option or maybe it's not a good idea, right? So you're just in a situation where you're like, I need the paycheck. I can't move out of this small town because this is where my kids go to school. Like whatever, whatever it may be. And so you experience these jolts, these moments where you might think, I don't want to work here anymore. This part of my job has become really deficient and is taxing my wellbeing. You know, these jolts happen and quitting is off the table.

And so really then how do you protect your wellbeing? How do you stay a good performer? How do you continue to function and make sure that, you know, you don't turn to burnout or something like that as a result of these jolts when quitting is off the table. ⁓ that I would argue is more difficult to manage than if quitting is a great option, right? I mean, during the great resignation, when the job markets were great, it's like, yeah, I don't like this job. That's fine. There's a bunch of other people who will hire me. so if I don't like this, I can move on.

Brian Aquart (18:14)

Yeah.

Anthony (18:24)

We're in a situation right now, and a lot of the book spends time on what happens when you experience a jolt, but you're stuck. And this is what a researcher, you know, named Peter Home has studied for a long time. These individuals who are called reluctant stayers. And we're all reluctant stayers for different points of our career. And so how do you navigate that? So that's why I think it's important with this somewhat challenging labor market for many workers right now.

the other thing I'll say, I haven't, you know, probably fully formulated this, it's just something I'm starting to study, is I think we're on, and I'm not making more predictions, I promise, but I think we're on the cusp of maybe not a wave of resignations, but definitely a wave of jolts emanating from AI entering the workforce.

Brian Aquart (19:02)

Hahaha.

Anthony (19:12)

I know everything is about AI right now. sometimes even when I hear myself think I'm like, okay, here we are talking about AI again, Anthony. But I teach a new course here on just how jobs are assembled, which is kind an old school topic, but it's become timely again, because you look at the different components of your job and say, which of these are going to stay mine? And which of these are going to be outsourced to a robot or an AI agent of some sort?

And in some cases, that will make our job better. In some cases, that will make our job worse. In some cases, that may replace our job. But in all of those different cases, we will often experience that as a jolt, that the job I had all of a sudden is different. And they're telling me I need to re-skill or up-skill or get along with these AI agents. And in some cases, it'll be a positive jolt. And you'll look at your job and say, this is better than ever.

I'm more committed and maybe I even want to like re-skill and go for a new role in my company or somewhere else. But I think in a lot of cases, and we even see it with the news of what AI may do to the workplace, it's making a lot of people take a step back and saying, okay, I'm not sure what the future is going to look like. What should I do? And so for those reasons, I don't talk about AI much in the book because it's moving way too fast.

to put it in a book right now, at least for someone who's not a high level expert in it. But I think this concept of jolts will become more relevant in the next couple of years.

Brian Aquart (20:40)

Yeah, and that's one of the things I'm really excited about digging into the new book when it comes out is just hearing kind of what you're anticipating going forward. Because as I was preparing for this, thinking about the own little jolts that I've had throughout my career, and it's like, oh, it starts making a lot more sense. And I too have been in prior roles like a reluctant stayer for certain aspects of my career.

Anthony (20:56)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Aquart (21:08)

but I don't think I really unpacked it during that time as to why I just, it just kind of went with the flow, we're on episode 98 right here and I saw across nearly a hundred episodes, right? Almost, right? So we'll be there. We'll be there in a couple, a couple shows, but I've, I've heard stories of, illness and burnout, layoffs, caregiving loss, of course. And of course breakthroughs. which Jolt's

Anthony (21:18)

Nice.

Brian Aquart (21:31)

are most shaping how people view work today? Or is that not necessarily a fair question?

Anthony (21:37)

Yes. So I think there are some jolts in the book and we can talk about this. But I talk about the six jolts that you'll meet in your career. And I believe a few of those types are becoming more prevalent and more impactful. And some are pretty straightforward. But I think these jolts that happen.

fairly early in a new job, which I call honeymoon jolts that happened in the first year on the job are becoming more common. Employer branding has become a big deal for companies where just like they sell you products, they sell you here's how wonderful it's going to be to work here. And it sets these lofty expectations in your mind for what the company is going to be like. And so when you actually get into the organization, sometimes there can be this tension and this realization that not all of my expectations are being lived up to.

And that can kind of feel unfair and make us react really strongly. And so these honeymoon jolts are becoming more common. And then it's hard not to look at the world and all of the turmoil and disruption that is out there. And a lot of it is being brought right to us on our phones while we're at work during the day and so forth. And I talk about this type of jolts called remote jolts, which is, which is when

These negative events happen around the world or these scary events, startling events, and you don't know people personally who are involved. But you're looking at your phone at this like kind of intense event that's happening. You feel for the people who are a part of it, especially if you identify with them in some way. And then you look at the tasks that you're doing and the job that you're in and you see the disconnect between those two and you, and it can be jolting to say like, is this really what I'm doing with my time while this is happening?

in the world. You know, and so gone, I talk about our, you know, gone are the days from, I don't know, 20 or 30, 40 years ago. I mean, my childhood for sure, when my dad would leave for work in the morning, I wouldn't hear from him until he came back ⁓ in the evening. And he wouldn't, you know, there was no phone, there was no news, anything like that. You know, now our work and, you know, the news of the outside world and the jolts that it contains in our work lives are totally intertwined. And so that's just one more reason.

why I think that, um, understanding these jolts and, and, just like I said, it was great to give a name to how people were feeling at that time, at the end of 2020, early 2021, you hear people talking about these events and how they make them feel and not that, I mean, my research revolves around work, which is why I see it through a work lens. But I think this concept of jolts where this thing happened somewhere, maybe it's a big, big

⁓ event or a small event, but it made me stop and reflect on things. I don't think we have a great word for that, where other people kind of know exactly what it means when you say it. And I have a friend who's an early reader of the book, and he sent me a text a few days ago. And it was just, he just said, funny, I've just been jolted. And this small, this small event happened at work, and it caused it caused him to sit and

Brian Aquart (24:37)

You

Anthony (24:43)

and realize this work has an expiration date for me. Like I thought that I was on a good path, but this like small thing has sort of sent me a signal that maybe I'm not, and I need to reflect on some change. So he and I talked and I was like, I think you can probably make some moves within your current job to maybe deal with this before we get to the, to the quitting stage, which he agreed. It was a good conversation, but what really made me happy was, was he had used the term, you know, as we use it as, as academics. And I thought that this is

This is useful for this to be in the vernacular.

Brian Aquart (25:16)

what'll be cool to see going forward is if you now start seeing and hearing people start using this phraseology around, wow, it's just jolted or stuff and stuff like that. Because I think I could see how it's catchy. It's quick. First and foremost, it's a quick word. It's short, right? And so it's like, you think like, I just got jolted, you know, like it's just, I could see that happening.

Anthony (25:38)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's the dream. And even in, you know, conversations with your manager, you know, when you walk out, let's say you, you know, you have this big idea in a meeting that you say, Hey, here's this big idea. I've been working on it all weekend. And your boss kind of dismisses it and, you know, and moves on with the meeting and they might not mean anything by it. They've got something else on their mind, but it was a bit disrespectful and rude what they, what they did there. And sometimes it's the small events that can cause you to say, like, I just spent my whole weekend on that and nobody cared that much about it.

This is a place where if you have like at least a somewhat open-minded boss, which you know is great, you can walk in and say, look, what happened there was a little bit of a jolt for me. And ideally that, that would get your, your boss, if they were listening would say, okay, okay. Like I didn't think it was a big deal, but clearly it caused this person to sort of question things for a moment. And it's a way to sort of elevate the level of the conversation, but also both understand.

what it means. doesn't mean I'm quitting or anything like that. It just means it was a bit of a pause moment for me and say, I belong here? It's just the work that I want to do. So we'll see. mean, who knows? It's pretty greedy for me to think a second term ⁓ would catch on, but whatever. Yeah.

Brian Aquart (26:46)

Yeah.

you

Yeah. And you

know, I want to just circle back to something that you mentioned earlier there are six types of jolts that you outline in the book. If you, if you don't mind just high level, just rattling off, what, are those six jolts?

Anthony (27:06)

Yeah, yeah, I'll move through them quickly and then we can we can dive into any that you'd like. I'm happy to share the information. So the most basic are direct jolts. And these are negative events that happen directly to you at work. We often think of the big ones, which are like, you know, experiencing mistreatment at work, where it's clear somebody has harassed you or something like that. Of course, that's going to make you think about do I belong here or not?

The same goes for we've all failed at work, you a big project or something like that. And it does make you think, is this the work for me or not? But what we're finding with these direct jolts is small incidents of rudeness, of being left out, of experiencing some customer mistreatment. These sorts of things can be quite jolting ⁓ as well. And they're often most jolting to the highest performers and the most conscientious employees.

Those are direct jolts. The next type are just a variant of that and they're called collateral jolts, which is like when a jolt happens to someone around you and it reverberates and it causes you to reflect as well. This happens most commonly with turnover contagion, where one of your friends at work or somebody who you at least like a little bit, ⁓ you know, leaves their job because when, somebody who you work with or you, who you like a little bit leaves their job, your work days become a little bit less bright.

⁓ You probably have to take on some of their work unpaid for some period of time, which is not fun. And of course we talk to them and say, what are you going to do? And it causes us to dream and think as well, what would we do if we were in their shoes? The collateral jolts also come into play ⁓ when it comes to witnessing other people being treated poorly at work. And it makes us think, I next? Honeymoon jolts, we already talked about. It's sort of counterintuitive.

When I first came across this, I was sort of surprised by it, but the most common year for quitting in organizations is year one. So we often think like year one, these are the most content employees because they just got here, they're happy, they're content with their pay and so forth. But it's because of surprises, unpleasant surprises in the first year where our expectations don't match up with reality, that it can cause us to become quick quitters and leave as soon as we get there.

⁓ I already talked about remote jolts that happen on the other side of the world, these, these negative events. and then there's also a common type of jolts that happens on the crosses over from work to home. And these are called crossover jolts. And so I think all of us can probably think of a time where we had a bad day at work and we took it home with us and a bad incident happened, right? Just a small.

fight with our partner, a bad interaction with our child, whatever it may be. And the same goes for having a bad morning at home and taking that into the workplace with us. And this can open our eyes to something's wrong with the boundaries between work and life here. And often it makes us realize our work has taken up more of our lives than we want. One thing I heard very commonly during the Great Resignation was,

these crossover jolts that happen when people started working in different ways. And the phrase that you kept hearing, and I'm sure you've heard it as well, is before the pandemic, I arranged my life around work. After the pandemic, I want work to arrange a little bit more around my life. And that's the result of these crossover jolts. So I want to make a change in these boundaries. Now, these first five jolts I've mentioned, they're all, they all come from negative events. And you might be thinking like, boy, Anthony, that's...

kind of dark, like, why are you so focused on the negative? But it has to do with our human psychology. just tend to cognitively and emotionally attend to negative events more than positive events. We notice them, they stick with us, they impact us more, we think about them more, even after their past and the future. But the last type of jolts are positive jolts. And the nice thing about positive events that happen in our lives, everything from, what do want, a birth of a child, a wedding, a big birthday, an accomplishment,

at work, whatever it may be, you know, seeing a really inspiring role model do something great, right? These positive events open our mind to new possibilities. They make us think we can accomplish maybe more than we thought we could. And during those moments of open mindedness, it's ripe for career epiphanies to strike. And so there's positive events as well. you can see that's a pretty big landscape and it's why, you know, and just to be clear, like

A lot of these jolts, I often say the first reaction to jolts should probably be just doing nothing, just waiting for a moment and diagnosing it a little bit. But I don't want people to get the sense that like, boy, these jolts are just happening almost every moment and knocking us around. They happen with pretty frequent regularity, but a lot of us are pretty resilient to them as well. just every once in a while that they throw us for a loop.

Brian Aquart (31:56)

Yeah, no, I appreciate all of these and can resonate with all of them. And I love how you ended on a positive note. The one that really stuck out was the honeymoon jolt because I've heard of people, especially as different organizations were looking to hire people like, come make more money with us and you can work remotely, right? But then they start working at said job and they say, oh yeah, no, you can work remote.

Anthony (32:02)

Yeah.

Brian Aquart (32:26)

but when your leader is here in the office, you have to be in the office. Otherwise you can work remote. Well, guess how often the leader is in the office? Four to five days a week. And so I've talked with people who have been through that. They're like, wait a minute, like Brian, just pulled the Okie doke on me. And I've heard about that so many times. And so as soon as you said honeymoon jolts, was like, ooh, that's the first thing I thought of.

Anthony (32:29)

Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, this there's this great effect and it was it was coined by Wendy Boswell, who's a researcher at Texas A&M University. So my former colleague and it's the honeymoon hangover effect. And it describes like a lot of things pretty well, including often switching to a new job where we get there. We're excited. We're full of positive energy. The first week, the first month, we're excited. And then some things start to fall apart and some expectations aren't met. And it's and it's when you go to use

Brian Aquart (32:59)

Yeah

Anthony (33:14)

the flex time policy and realize this is not flexible at all. You you go to use your vacation and you get a guilt trip for it. you know, and you realize, there's, there's what the company and I don't think a lot of the times there's intentional dishonesty. It's that the recruitment team and the HR is, is selling what they believe the company operates like, but inside there's a, there's norms and practices that are counter to that. And yeah, that, creates a lot of.

a lot of friction. ⁓ yeah, I think honeymoon jolts are something that we are often are not on the lookout for, but once you sort of change your mindset and start to look for them, you can protect yourself somewhat easily from them by, by doing a little bit more

before you make that jump. So yeah.

Brian Aquart (34:00)

You know, as you think about the this evolution of resignation, obviously that we've been talking about, you know, five years later from the prediction, you know, I guess as I'm hearing this conversation, you think we're still in like a resignation era or have we moved into like this jolt era now?

Anthony (34:17)

Yeah, that's a good question. So I part of the reason so the book is called jolted and I've been talking about this term jolts a lot. Part of the reason I'm fond of this term is not just because of the academic literature, but the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the report that they come out with every month that reports the amount of turnover in the US economy is called the jolts report, the job openings, job openings and labor turnover survey.

Brian Aquart (34:41)

Bye bye.

Anthony (34:45)

And we just hit, so they started tracking that in 2000. And so just a few weeks ago, we hit 25 years that the Bureau of Labor Statistics has been tracking turnover in the US. And so I put together a chart just looking at the 25 years and the ups and downs, and of course the big spike during the great resignation. And where we're at now is pretty much the...

average where we've been over those 25 years in terms of resignations. And so in some ways, because of all the news of layoffs and how the labor market isn't good and how hard it is to find a new job, you might think, well, there's not much quitting going on. But actually, it's the average as it's been for the last 25 years. So it's not, of course, as high as it was back in 2021, 2022 and 2023. But it's still almost as elevated as it was going into the pandemic.

which was a time of like really ⁓ strong economic performance and quite a bit of churn. And so I, I do think we're still in this, yeah, era where, where resignations are pretty prevalent. And you mentioned earlier, you know, there were a lot of different terms and buzzwords that came up during that time and it continued to come up. And I know they frustrate some people, but, I'm a fan of buzzwords. ⁓

as long as we hold them with a grain of salt and realize there's often not evidence backing them up, but they maybe speak to some truth in the workplace. And one term that came up right after the great resignation term came out that I thought that's a great term too. Maybe I should have said that was the great reshuffle. ⁓ And, and I think it kind of speaks to the same thing. A lot of people were making the observation that the great resignation was a time when people were quitting a lot.

Brian Aquart (36:21)

Mmm.

Anthony (36:30)

And people got the sense that I was predicting that they were quitting the workforce altogether, just like walking away from work. Um, but in reality, I was just saying, no, they're going to quit their jobs and do something different. In a lot of cases, they'll go to another job. In other cases, they might take a career break, go back to school, who knows what. But I think the great reshuffle was more about, uh, you know, this, this reshuffling was happening where people were moving between jobs and, and, which was accurate, um, as well. And I thought it was a good term. That term has sort of stuck with me and I, think, we're moving into this.

probably era of reduced somewhat reduced resignations, but still an average level. And we've got this force coming in, or at least, you know, it's there on the horizon. That's going to change the way that we work. And people are getting prepared for that. So I, I, I do feel like that reshuffling term is pretty relevant right now where people are saying,

Do I want to flip my career on its head and engage with AI? Do I want to ride it out here? Is this my time to start a side hustle, to start a side gig, hang the entrepreneurial shingle out there, whatever it may be. so, yeah, resignations are still up there. Clearly, I think we're entering into a period of time where we recognize, hopefully recognize that JOLTS are all around us and increasing.

And I like that reshuffling term. think that's still relevant.

Brian Aquart (37:51)

Yeah, I agree with that one. You know, as you think about this, you've obviously predicted a wave of career breaks, experimentation, obviously boomerang employees too. Clearly you got the great resignation right. But as you mentioned earlier, that was the one that hit, right? And so what are some of the things that you may have gotten wrong that people may not have ⁓ been familiar with? And what are some of the things that have surprised you during your time in this space?

Anthony (38:20)

So in researching the book, and this is at the very front end of the book, it partly sets it up. I think one thing that surprised me was just how much that period of time has had a lasting impact on people's relationship with work. And in some ways, it feels like we've gone back to work the way it was. But ⁓ hybrid working is still more than it's ever been. Remote work is still up. But I guess,

I talk about this lottery question at the start of the book. since early 1970s, every two years, there's been this broad survey done in the US, the General Social Survey. And there's one question that asks, it's essentially called the lottery question. And it essentially asks, if you all of sudden came into all the money that you could ever want to live as comfortably as you want for the rest of your life, would you continue working or would you stop working?

And we often look at this as the work ethic question, like this new generation in the workforce doesn't work as much. Nobody wants to work anymore. But if you look at the statistics from 1972 to 2018, it's 70%. It might fluctuate around that, but it's not moving up or down. It's 70%. And I would have guessed that maybe it would dip a little bit during the pandemic, but it would return pretty quickly.

And so in 2018, it was 72 % of Americans said they would keep working even if they won the lottery when they ran. So they didn't run it in 2020 because of the pandemic. They ran it again in 2021. And that number had dropped 10 points to 62%, which is just a large percentage of people. mean, a large, if you take 10 % of the U S population, if we can extrapolate that out, switched from saying I would keep working if I didn't need to, I don't, I wouldn't work anymore. And so

So that was really a surprise to me. The survey has been done twice since and it's come back up just a little bit. And so if you look at the, that trends in 1972, the pandemic has had this broad effect on our relationship with work. And I talk about this lottery question, you know, a reasonable amount with audiences, executive students, what have you workers. And one time I was talking about it and I always ask the audience and it's always around 70 % of people or so say they would, they would keep working.

and I asked 60 to 70%. and I asked it one time and, and one person had this really great idea and audience member, this was in Idaho and the, the audience member said, can you ask it again, but ask if, if we won the lottery, how many of us would keep working at our current jobs? and I thought, no, okay, I'll ask that again. What's it going to be 50 % it's going to drop to 50 % because some people don't like their jobs or something like that. So I asked the question again, it dropped from like 70 % of people.

to like 10 % of people. So people value the place of work in their lives, maybe more than I expected, but the version of work that they're getting in their life right now is not what they want. And in many cases, you ask people, what would you do if you win the lottery, you quit your job, what's next? A couple of things come up. The first one is start my own business.

Brian Aquart (41:04)

You

Anthony (41:27)

all, many of us want to be our own boss and have our own autonomy. That, that makes complete sense. And the other one is a path not taken earlier in life. You know, I always wanted to be this, but for this reason, it didn't work out. I would circle back and do that. And so that's part of why I think these, these jolts are important as well. ⁓ because they, because of those gaps that I was just talking about between the value of work, how it's dropped since the pandemic and how,

people are experiencing it in their jobs is these jolts sometimes may show you opportunities that you can jump into a side hustle right now or a new venture. This is your moment and you don't want to miss those moments when they happen in life or this is your moment and there's a lot of talk about re-skilling right now to think about those roads not taken and maybe you've always

wanted to do this one career and that career is pretty AI proof, right? It's, being a chef in a world-class restaurant or whatever it may be. these jolts may say this, this is the time. And so that's why it's important not to react overly strongly to everyone, but, to recognize when they're telling you there may be a new path here. So, so for me, as I researched the book, ⁓ those were a couple of the surprises and honestly, those six types of jolts that we talked about, I hadn't,

I didn't put those together in my head until I researched the book and kind of looked at, know, what is all, what are all the different possible events that cause us to experience these moments? so, so a lot of these, the book writing process did end up being pretty good because if you would have asked me that about Anthony, how, what percentage of people do you think, you know, we keep working? Do you think the pandemic is going to have a lasting effect on that? Do you think this percentage of people would, would quit their jobs if they won the lottery? I would have been way, way off on those ⁓ percentages. And so, ⁓

And my instinct would have been off. So, so yeah, so there's been, there's been a lot of learning through the process. Yeah.

Brian Aquart (43:20)

Yeah, no,

I love that. And one thing I wanted to mention to you is as we talked a lot about this kind of this freedom shock or freedom jolt that people that we experienced during remote work and how hard it is. Remember you brought this up, I'll never forget, but how hard it is to give that freedom back, right? And we see that with a lot of orgs bringing people back. How is this idea playing out today?

that you've seen in the US and maybe even where you are in the UK as well about people now getting brought back into the office.

Anthony (43:54)

Yeah, it's, it's not playing out well in many cases. Part of that is, you know, I talk about commuting in the book and just a small part of it is like going having to commute more is generally bad for us on like 15 different levels. But I talked about in the book, like, how do you how do you know when just a regular event becomes a jolt? Like what what makes just a regular bad event that randomly happens to us?

Why does it sometimes jolt us? And often it has to do with these three factors. And these are not ones factors that I came up with. There's a couple of researchers, Fred Morgerson at Michigan State, Dong Liu at Georgia Tech University. And they were like, there's really three things that play into it. First is it disrupt, how much did the event disrupt your life? And if you think about once we get used to working from home and then we have to come back in the office, I just mentioned the commute.

But that is extremely disruptive to the routines that we have set up. And a lot of those routines are like pretty healthy. When I talk to people who work from home, they're like, I get outdoors more when I work from home. I see my family more when I work from home. I eat healthier when I work from home. Like all these things are like sources of positive energy for us. So they're really disruptive. The second thing is novelty. Is this something that happens to you often or rarely happens to you? And this is a pretty novel event where you like, you want me to switch where I'm working.

over this period of time, it's pretty novel. And then how critical is it to you? Like how much do you value working flexibly? And most of us value it pretty highly, but some of us who are driven largely by autonomy are very affected by it. so, yeah, so we continue to see this play out, but both in Europe and the US in a bit of a back and forth with employers.

in that there are a lot of companies who have had returned to office policies that are very strict. But then if you look at the actual enforcement of it, managers aren't enforcing it in many cases because they're saying like, look, I'll give you this idiosyncratic deal. I'll give you this deal. I'll give you this deal because you're being productive and that's what a good manager cares about your wellbeing and your productivity. Like those two things. And if, if you're, if you feel good and you're performing well, great. And so there's, there's managers who aren't enforcing it. And so

know, tech companies, know, Amazon's one of the leaders here, you know, is tracking employees more closely and you're getting reports on your physical presence and getting a report card based on that. And they're using electronic surveillance to track individuals. It's completely the organization's prerogative to do that, especially if the organization really feels like there's huge value to having people physically present.

But here again, the research is very, clear. We do not like being electronically surveilled. Like no one, no one does for the most part, or very, very few people do. And so what it does is it reduces employee commitment and engagement for most workers. And so I think this is going to continue to play out and it's going to kick up again, not to again, tie everything back to AI, but, there's a real push for this four day work week, partly saying like, listen, organizations,

Brian Aquart (46:38)

Right.

Anthony (47:01)

You're telling us that AI can take a certain percentage of our jobs. Great. Can we work a little bit less? Would that be possible? Can we have that flexibility? And that's going to be a big question over the next one to five years.

Brian Aquart (47:15)

Yeah. Now I'd love to kind of pivot into now some lessons learned. You've been now heard from workers, leaders, students, and media worldwide about resigning and reinventing themselves. What's one insight that fundamentally changed how you think about quitting?

Anthony (47:34)

Yeah, so I suppose even though I study resignations, maybe my personality is such that when I leave, I tend to close that door. And when somebody leaves, I tend to not end the relationship, but wish them well and say the chapter is closed. And so what what's really been eye opening for me is that there's

there's a much probably healthier and more human way to view, ⁓ resignation, to view quitting than my own personal bias towards, that's the end of that. Let's, let's move on. And so, and it's happened to me personally, I talk about this a little bit in the book where when I was leaving one institution and my Dean was, upset at first. And then she said, what can we do to retain you? And there was nothing I was moving on. And she said, okay, well, I'm going to give you a one year leave of absence. And,

because I don't think you're going to love it at this next spot. I hope you do, but if you don't, you don't have to reapply for your job. Within one year, you can just come right back and we plug you right back in. And then I've heard from some other organizations that do that same thing. And it's just like keeping the door open instead of closing it. And I found like over that year, I didn't end up boomeranging back, but over that year, I stayed in touch with that organization to this day.

I'm a huge fan of Oregon State University, a huge fan of that institution that did that. I'm an ambassador for their brand when anybody asks. And so it's this much more positive way of looking at departures is not the end of the relationship for the company or the individual. so, and you see this, there's a lot of research and there's a lot of consulting companies. There's a industry that's growing up around alumni relationships.

Brian Aquart (49:17)

Yeah.

Anthony (49:17)

⁓

And of course we've had that with universities for a long time, but organizations are like, hey, this is the human thing to do to treat people really well as they leave and wish them well. It's good for business and it's good for them potentially boomeranging back. So that's been something again, that if you asked me last time we talked, it wouldn't really have been on my radar, but both students, workers, leaders, sort of opened my eyes up to that.

Brian Aquart (49:43)

that. And you know, if the listener feels a jolt coming or has just been jolted, that internal shift that says, you know, look, something clearly needs needs to change here. What's the first step they should take?

Anthony (49:58)

Yeah, this first step, I feel like isn't going to sell books ⁓ at all. It's a pretty boring. It's a pretty boring first step. But usually, usually it's a pretty emotionally, it's emotional time. It's a bit confusing. And so I so I often give the advice to do nothing and to create some space if you can, to create some space for balance between how you're feeling emotionally, and then thinking about what caused these emotions, what caused this jolt what's at the root cause here? Is it is is it with the people at work? Is it

Brian Aquart (50:02)

You

Anthony (50:27)

with my work tasks, is it about my pay? Is it about the purpose of my life? And I'm not working in a way that's aligned with that. Is it one of these bigger picture items? But really do some diagnosing, know, get out your toolkit, be a mechanic, find out what is the source of this jolt. And then you can say, okay, I've got options, right? I can do nothing because it's something I can wait on. I can speak up and see if I can get something changed in my work. I can also lean back a little bit.

and move away from work for a period of time to protect my wellbeing or to get this issue solved. And then of course the last option or towards the last options is walking away. And there's a way to do that. think the positive way to do that as well. But yeah, the first step is I to, I call it in the book, just carrying on ⁓ or just pausing.

and pondering for a moment, which I need a flashier title for that. But I think creating space is the main thing. And I will say, I think partnership is pretty critical in this process. And so if you do have a partner, and I define that really broadly, a good friend, a good coworker, a trusted coworker, a spouse, whoever it may be, a child, one of your kids who you can talk to about this and just be a sounding board, that's going to only improve your decision-making.

Brian Aquart (51:45)

Yeah. And what I love about kind of our connection here is, know, obviously I, like I said, nerded out on your work. You, you really helped name a movement and I've now spent like years documenting stories from people from that movement. What, what gives you hope about the future of work and what still keeps you up at night as we, as you think about this space.

Anthony (52:09)

Yeah, and it's been really humbling and touching for me to see like how you've taken this and just and really unpacked it and really had such a positive impact through your work just based on, as we talked about last time, a comment that I made about something that I thought might happen and that it's turned into, know, partly through that ⁓ you've had this great impact has been fantastic. I do tend to be optimistic when it comes to the future of work. ⁓

mainly optimistic. And that's because we have more tools than ever to hit that sweet spot of what I call human centric management, where people can be put in positions to perform well and create value for whatever organization it is, but also in a way that maintains or creates positive energy for them. can enter work in the morning whenever their work day starts.

and leave work with as much if not more positive energy than they had. have all the tools at our disposal and the pandemic opened our eyes to that in many ways. And that's gonna get even better because of some of the things we talked about already with new technologies coming. Of course, what gives me pause is, or what gives me maybe a hint of pessimism is, are these new technologies going to be used to benefit workers or to exploit workers?

Can we work, we know flexible working is better for our wellbeing and there's ways that it can, it's not easy, but there's ways that flexible working can be used such that it drives productivity and wellbeing at the same time. Some organizations have rolled up their sleeves and said, this is important for human centric management. This aligns with our values. We're gonna figure out how to do this and we're gonna make mistakes. It's gonna cost money. It's gonna be unpleasant, but we're gonna get there.

company will just throw out like Airbnb would be a company that's done like a really nice job at this. And there's other organizations that just waited until the labor market became a little bit more settled down and then quickly said, let's go back to the old way of working. The old way of working worked well for me. Therefore it should work well for all of you as well. And I see we have this, you know, these technologies on the horizon that 100 % have the potential to make our work lives better. And, ⁓

I just really hope and I'm optimistic that some companies will do this, but that the majority of companies use them to not just increase productivity and increase the bottom line, but have a positive impact on society through how they treat their workers. And I think that means a little bit more flexible work, a little bit less work, and really finding ways to align the work that people do with what they really enjoy. A little bit of crafting.

Brian Aquart (54:55)

And look, I have to ask this question just in case this is the moment. If you had to describe the next era of work in one word, just like resignation captured the last one, what would it be?

Anthony (55:12)

gosh, I don't want to give a jar, like all types of jargon entering my mind, like I could talk about like volatility or dynamism or whatever. Well, I

Brian Aquart (55:14)

You

Anthony (55:27)

I think that term human centric has been on my mind a lot lately. And this sort of counter intuitively because we have, you know, robots and entering the workforce, but I think that's really going to cause us pause and say, look, going back to that, to that statistic, 70 % of people realize that work can be a force for good in their lives. And so I do think we're going to enter this conversation about what is the human element of work and how do we really make that shine? So,

I think I'll go with human centric, but if I think of something more clever, I'll be sure to shoot you a note.

Brian Aquart (56:02)

I love it. Love it.

And now similar to the last time, I would love to flip the mic to you. What's one question you have for me that I could answer, whether about my journey, the stories or the movement that you helped spark. I mean, like I said, we're in season five now. We're about to hit episode 100 in two episodes. So would love to answer anything you have.

Anthony (56:23)

Yeah. So, I really liked your question earlier, you know, you know, thinking back, what, did I not know? And if, you look back over these almost a hundred episodes, these five years of hearing people's really amazing stories of transition of quitting, is there one, some of the themes that if you think about the across the five, some of the themes you probably expected, but is there one theme, if you think across many of those that

that has impacted you the most or that is maybe the most unexpected, what theme would that be?

Brian Aquart (56:54)

Yeah, as I'm thinking, looking at the jolts here,

The positive jolts really sticks out as something that can capture a lot these stories that I've been talking with folks here about. And the reason I say that is because what I've seen with the pandemic, because remember I jumped into this not understanding why people would leave stability during a time of instability, but what I really found is that

This show is really not about people leaving their jobs. It's about people finding themselves and the positive jolts are, and maybe this is its own kind of social experiment. We never give ourselves enough time to answer those really hard questions that we always had, right? That we've always had, but when we're, unless we're forced to, and unfortunately we were forced to at that time and they just didn't go away.

And so what I've seen in the show and a lot of the themes, you know, this overcoming fear piece is like the, a really big one. And because what it's allowed people to do is finally sit with those questions they've asked themselves, answer them, and then decide back to your point around. ⁓ I think there was the gentleman who had said who, who would leave their current job and remember it went down to like 10%. It's, I agree that people aren't trying to not work.

Right? They're trying to just do something different that better suits their lifestyle and better suits their, their wants and needs. And I got to respect that. And so that's, that's what this has, that's how I would answer this question. It's just, ⁓ been a beautiful, I guess, social experiment on the human, on human nature that, ⁓ I did not expect to encounter coming into this. I didn't, I didn't even know what to expect.

just when I started this show, right? Just nerding out on the topic. But it's just been beautiful to start connecting all of these things. And you know, I've interviewed people all over the world. And I know folks who've watched the show probably get tired of me saying this, but we're all much more connected than we think.

Anthony (58:48)

Yeah.

Yep. that's, that's great. And I love the positive jolt, the positive aspect to it. ⁓ Because like I said, a lot of our research and a lot of my focus is, you know, is drawn to these negative events because they're so impactful. But what your, you know, what your work is suggesting is like, Hey, maybe that is something we need to revisit and take a more intentional look at. We're being maybe a little bit

quick to label these things as all negative. And if we look more closely at the silver linings, it's not about the negative inventive and leaving all the time. It's about these new discoveries and these new paths forward. I love it.

Brian Aquart (59:42)

Yeah. Well, Anthony, want to just thank you for naming the moment that sparked this show and for reminding us that the jolts that shake us can also shape us, which I think is beautiful to think about. And I'm very excited about, the book and helping just promoting, continuing to get the word out there. Always good talking with you. And of course, appreciate your time. The book, keep me honest, the book drops on March 17th, right?

Anthony (1:00:07)

That's correct.

Brian Aquart (1:00:09)

And so where can our listeners buy it, learn more about you and obviously support your work?

Anthony (1:00:14)

Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn and then I have a personal website as well, anthonyklotz.com. But you can also find my UCL School of Management email pretty easily and reach out to me directly. But LinkedIn is usually where I'm posting those sorts of things. And in terms of buying the book, it's really up to you. It's the usual spots where you know you can buy a book online. But I also, I mean, what I tend to do is go down to my local bookstore and have them order.

whatever books I want and support the local economy. So whatever moves you, you should be able to find the book in those spots.

Brian Aquart (1:00:47)

Awesome. Well, I want to thank you for all of that info. of course, kicking off season five for us, like I said, I'll put everything in our show notes. I'm looking forward to reading the book and getting it signed. I'll be in London for the London Marathon come April. So we'll definitely link up then. And I just want to thank you for visiting. You've been a real inspiration to the show. like I said, I just can't thank you enough for your time and for your support. So.

Hope you all have a great week. We'll definitely see you next time. We hope you enjoy this season and Professor Klotz, thank you so much.

Anthony (1:01:24)

Thank you, Brian. Appreciate