Leaving Law Enforcement Twice - Dr. Jessica Herbert

What happens when the system you helped build no longer reflects the person you have become? Dr. Jessica Herbert knows that question from the inside. She left the same career twice, first to step away from law enforcement, then later to move beyond public safety analytics toward leadership transformation.

Jessica’s path spans law enforcement, federal task force work, data science, entrepreneurship, and executive coaching. She founded Idea Analytics, led analytics work for public agencies, and now serves as a practice leader at Asbatra Coaching, where she helps leaders think differently about trust, transformation, and human-centered change.

In this conversation, Jessica and Brian explore what it feels like to hit the same wall twice, why awareness is the first real step toward leaving, and how data can reveal the early warning signs leaders often ignore. This episode is for anyone who once believed in a system, built something meaningful inside it, and now feels the quiet pull toward something more aligned.

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Transcript

Jessica Herbert 0:02

I actually think this one's the hardest. And as we're recording this, I think I'm still in this transition of stepping away throughout this period because when you've built a business, it means I think of it as like a plant, right? You put the plant in the ground, and now it has had time to grow over these 15 years. And there's a lot of roots, and you can't just rip it up. I call it being in the red zone. Every day I don't want to go into work. Every day it's another problem. I can't see the solution anymore to know, like, hey, you're in the red zone, and you got to think differently about how to get out of here. You got to make a decision. Period.

Brian Aquart 0:38

Welcome to Why I Left, a podcast exploring life-changing career moves. I'm your host, Brian Aquart. Join me as I chronicle real stories from real people about the bold decisions that transform their careers and lives. Let's dive in. Hello, and thanks for tuning in to this episode of Why I Left. What happens when the system you helped build no longer reflects the person you've become? Today's guest, Dr. Jessica Herbert, knows those crossroads all too well. She left the same career twice. First, to change the system, and then to change how people lead within it. Let's go check it out. Alright, welcome back. So our guest today is Dr. Jessica Herbert, founder of Idea Analytics and practice leader at Asbatra Coaching. Jessica's journey spans law enforcement, data science, and executive coaching, from serving as a detective and federal task force officer to leading analytics for major public agencies to now guiding leaders through transformation and trust building. She's helping small business owners and executives ascend beyond traditional leadership paradigms, proving that real data starts with people. So, Jessica, welcome to Why I Left. How are you doing?

Jessica Herbert 2:02

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

Brian Aquart 2:05

Absolutely. So, you know, I was very, very interested in your background and writing. And so you started your career in law enforcement, later became a data and analytics leader. When you look back, what first drew you into the world of justice and public service?

Jessica Herbert 2:21

Yeah, I mean, I think some of these things are impressed upon us when we're kids, right? We either see see something out as a kid and we're like, wow, I want to do that, or we have this experience of like, why isn't this working? And if I become that, will I be able to fix it? And I was definitely the later, the later part. My interactions with police as a kid in my neighborhood and with my family was often really kind of scattered crisis moments of things that were happening at home or things that were happening in the community. And it never was really explained to you as a kid as to like what exactly are they supposed to be doing or should they be doing, or whatever they did do, what did that mean? Right. And some of that your your young brain can't quite hold on to, right? You don't really understand, you know, some of those adult things. But so when I was a kid, those officers might have been checking on welfare concerns from neighbors or teachers. They might have been addressing domestic violence in the neighborhood or various things of that nature. And then as a teen, I experienced some of the courtesy of calling to let me know that my dad's not coming home because he's arrested for drunk driving and there's just not going to be a parent tonight or in the morning, right? And those interactions, you know, never really solved problems. And I'm not really sure, you know, always ensured the safety or kind of like what to do next, right? Or where to go from here. Um, you know, I think that's where, since there were so many unknowns, for me, I kept thinking there has to be a better way. There has to be a different way. I don't know what that is. Um, but there has to be there somewhere. And, you know, I think of some of those circumstances where my reaction is to lean in and like figure it out versus those folks or organizations that are like, oh no, that's not us. We don't want to do anything about that. And that might make it a little bit different.

Brian Aquart 4:18

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And and you've worn many hats: detective, task force officer, researcher, consultant, CEO, coach. I don't know what we're gonna add next, right? But when you think about all of those hats, what connects all those chapters for you?

Jessica Herbert 4:33

Yeah, I think it's it's the search for the better way, the different way, right? Of of how exactly do you change, you know, change the trajectory, change the patterns, and what seat do you sit in to do that, right? To help solve those problems. And so, you know, I think I think one of the things that no one tells you at different parts of your career, definitely early on, is that when you only fulfill one role, you either have no influence over policy changes or decision making because that role is just insignificant to the larger organization, or you're all of a sudden you have all this influence, but you don't know what to do with it, right? And there's this no kind of trajectory or happy medium in that process. And so, you know, for me, you think, oh, these things didn't really work out when I was a kid. I'm gonna try to become one of them and change it from within. But then you realize that all those arrests and court cases later aren't really solving a problem because you just see how it's just an end result for those families that have so many other things that they're dealing with and that those actions aren't really part of the solution. And so you realize you have to change seats at the table and you have to change, you know, change the conversation. And you can't always do that from that singular role. You have to change the role to kind of influence those things over time, or at least that's my experience.

Brian Aquart 5:52

This show is about obviously why people leave and their career transitions. You said you've left the same career twice. And so can you walk us through that first departure? Like what pushed you to leave law enforcement after nearly a decade?

Jessica Herbert 6:06

Yeah, I when I started in in law enforcement, right, because that was something that I was like, oh, maybe this is the pathway, right? I I'll become one of them, and then that'll give me the opportunity to make changes. And I think initially I saw that as an option. And I maybe because I was young and not quite jaded or informed about certain things, you know, you're kind of hopeful. You're like, but this could be the way. And I had some early mentors or other folks that uh you're part of that process, the kind of early parts of my career, and they would tell me within the first hour or so of meeting and talking to them, oh, you're not gonna stay long. You're too smart, you're not gonna be able to fit in here. And of course, then I didn't understand that. I'm like, why are you telling me that I'm not in the right place? Like, and why is my smartness, however it is that you define that, like, how is that influence? Like, how is that a negative, right? Um, and how is that not gonna be helpful? And I did I really didn't understand what it meant then. And to be honest, I thought it was like the worst thing you could say to somebody who's kind of like young and thinking all of these possibilities and seeing these pathways to that change, you know, that it's like a way to put a damper on the idea of their career ahead of them. But of course, I didn't, I really didn't understand why being smart wasn't valued and why being smart and being somebody who wanted to see changes and wanted to see something different and wanted to kind of evolve both as an individual and as an organization, that I really didn't understand why that wasn't going to be embraced or uh why that wasn't going to be valued for the long term. And so I ended up being there for 12 years in that role or you know, in that organization, because I operated outside of their norm. And I think that's what delayed the leaving, right? If I had followed a traditional path to the organization, I think I would have also come to those same realizations as those mentors, right? Those folks that had been there for a while that already their tenure had given them knowledge and and you know that hindsight that we all get after a few years of of work. Um, and so I think because I had this unique opportunity to be on different trajectories that were outside of the norm, it still fed my innovation and it fed my change and it fed that desire. So I was like, you guys don't know what you're talking about. This is exactly what I'm doing. Um, until you know, it took 12 years for me to hit that wall to say, oh no, honey, this organization, this is not, it still doesn't value it. And this kind of the time that you've been able to innovate and make changes and influence things, it's over. And that means your career is too at this point, you know, at least at that seat from that table. So yeah.

Brian Aquart 8:51

No, that makes a lot of sense. And later, you know, after building, you know, a respected analytics company, you ended up departing that role, this time more so to focus on human transformation through coaching. And so, what made you realize it was time to step away for a second time in this type of space or from this type of space?

Jessica Herbert 9:10

I actually think this one's the hardest. And as we're recording this, I think I'm still in this transition of stepping away throughout this period because when you've built a business, it means I think of it as like a plant, right? You put the plant in the ground and now it has had time to grow over these 15 years. And there's a lot of roots, and you can't just rip it up, and you may not necessarily feel okay with just abandoning it as well, right? And so, so this transition um and step and leaving again is actually brought up a lot of feelings from the first time of how much of this was my choice versus not, how much of the better way or the problems that I was able to solve, how much have I reflected on those to know that it was still valuable, even though I'm leaving again, you know, and and kind of uh separating from the field once again. And so there's a lot of feelings about that. Of the first time I felt like it wasn't on my terms or I wasn't ready for it. I just kind of smacked up against that wall of the things. And this time I feel like I am ready for it, but because I have those roots in the ground, it's like, you know, how do you still nurture those in a way that's respectful for you and your clients and your employees, but also uh, you know, I'm done. I'm hitting the same, the same walls that I hit years ago of just recognizing that sometimes that change isn't isn't wanted. Sometimes the the reward system within these organizations is misaligned. It's rewarding scarcity, it's rewarding dysfunction. And and there's really not space for for those that are like, what if we what if we got better because we were already doing good and we just sought to improve instead of thinking we have to get better because we screwed up, right? Um, or we're not doing so well. And and I think that starting point for me is much different now. And that's a really important part as I leave and move on to these other other ambitions with leadership development and remedy kind of people focus work.

Brian Aquart 11:14

And I I appreciate you uplifting that because I would imagine that, you know, uh when I think about my audience and truthfully some of my guests too. We've had people who have built things from the ground up and truthfully have may have to leave those things. And there is, you know, back in some of my my, I guess the the mental health episodes, there is a grieving process that occurs with making those transitions that I'm hearing you uplift in in this piece. And so I think it's a nice transition because we're some of the themes I see you talk about, you know, you talk about helping people ascend, balance, and transform, which sounds like is exactly what you're actually doing right now. So what does that mean to you and how did your own journey help shape this philosophy?

Jessica Herbert 12:00

Yeah, I think most people think of ascending in their careers like, oh, I'm gonna get a promotion, I'm gonna get another rank, I'm gonna move to another position, I'm gonna have more responsibility. And for me, ascending is, you know, growing in such a way as an individual that you really perform at a higher level for yourself, whatever that is. If you're somebody who likes night work, then you are gonna get a career that allows you to work night shift. Um, and I think when we start to realize those things in the process of our careers, of how is what I'm doing now helping me be my best self in a variety of ways. And it changes throughout our career paths and our lifespans, right? Different things take priorities, you know, as a variety of things occur to us. And so ascending is really about rising to your best self. And maybe you do get the promotions because you are your best self, but sometimes you don't get the promotions when you're your best self because you're not in the right seat and you're not in the right fit of those things. And so when you rise to that kind of optimal operational level for yourself, your mind is clear. You know exactly what it is that serves you. You know how to walk away or say no when things don't serve you. You should be really grounded and have some clarity about those things. And that allows you to kind of balance out, right? You start to balance your life, your health, your relationships, whether or not you get promoted or move to another career path. You balance all of those things because your ascension is really aligned. And that's, I think that's what kind of puts us into this transformation piece of you keep what you need to keep, let go of what you need to go, you need to let go of. Um, and you only allow the best things to fit in your circle. And with those best things that fit in your circle, you can really kind of transform uh, you know, the rest of your path as li, you know, as a person in life, not just as a career, but personally as well. I like that a lot.

Brian Aquart 13:58

You know, your work inside systems, government, justice, corporate, these are spaces that are often resistant to change. What have you learned about how people actually change after having been involved in so many of these systems?

Jessica Herbert 14:12

Yeah, I think about this in two ways, right? And I've mentioned it a bit already is that there's an individual and then there's the organization, right? And the organization is made up of plenty of individuals. You could be working with a small business that's 10 people, and those dynamics to get those 10 people to change can be just as hard as getting the hundred-person company or organization to change. But I think the social scientists of me finds it really important to understand what motivates individuals and then how that informs the group, right? Whether those are small teams or kind of larger executive teams at large. And both individuals as well as teams as they work together, they have to want it more than you want it for them. So I have, you know, I can walk into another organization and say, Oh, this is really cool what you do. You make this product, you do smart energy, you know, you build something, you help thousands of kids, whatever those things are that that organization may do. But if I'm more motivated about their impact than they are, then like we're not gonna, we're not gonna see the change. They have to see that end result or the possibility of that end result as a benefit. Otherwise, we're dead in the water. And oftentimes, individuals and organizations get into this very fixed mindset because the things that tell them that that benefit is not possible or not even potentially possible is all the times that they've been told no. As an individual, they've been told no, the organization has told them no. And those things will just break and break and break and break the foundation for the people who are ready to change. And so those things, you know, you can apply it to just an individual thing like stopping drinking or smoking or, you know, other shopping habits or things of that nature, if they don't see that the benefit of not spending that money on the next pair of shoes, and for anybody who knows me knows that I love my shoes, but if you don't see that like spending money on the next pair of shoes is working against you, then you're gonna buy those shoes every single time. Right. And so you have to be able to see that kind of like, how does this small piece fit into the bigger piece? And and organizations have a really hard time with that because they don't, they don't necessarily support the innovation or recognize the value of the opinions of all the people doing the cog and wheels of the organization, you know, all the the the doers and and the middle management, they don't value that enough to see how they they are beneficial to to the ultimate North Star for the organization. And so when I start working with an organization, regardless government, corporate, somewhere in between business to business, if I see that those toxic traits are already in place, you have to address those things before you'll ever see the change happen because that will continue to kind of bleed out the organization slowly or fast, depending on uh how the communications and leadership.

Brian Aquart 17:09

Yeah, no, definitely. And so when you think about that aligned with your background in behavioral analytics, how has that, along with even now the data science, influenced your coaching style?

Jessica Herbert 17:20

Yeah, I think I think it has to be the behavior and human element has to be grounded with the research on what works. And there's a there's a lot where people are very skeptical, right? We're told, oh, people are unpredictable, or you're never gonna change someone, or um, you know, it's just not possible, or it's too expensive to do it that way. We're gonna make it this way, right? Um, and those are all of those, all of those decisions work against the human element uh and the behaviors in which those humans interact with individuals or you know, interact with business and products and things to that nature. So for me, I always have to be grounded on what is the research that works, and and it's not just the storytelling or the advice of like one. Like, well, in my career, I did it this way. So therefore, that should be the whole thing. It doesn't work like that. And I think that's where, you know, over the years, being able to think of data is a piece of information that should help you change, change your way of thinking, change your decisions and inform your actions going forward. And it has it's a piece of information. It's not the whole story, but it's a piece of information that has to put those things and that trajectory and in motion in order to do that. So for me, data is really important as part of the coaching style because you know, I need to know from that individual what happens when you're scared, what happens when you have that voice that's in your head telling you you're not enough or this isn't the right place for you? Like what causes some of those things? Because that data and information helps us change the trajectory going forward. Because it informs us and it tells us, is this the right path I'm on? Or am I on the wrong path? And how do I reframe? How do I readjust? And how does that data help me get to that place that I need to be so that I can kind of continue, continue on my transformation?

Brian Aquart 19:17

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and definitely a lot of alignment there. You know, so at Idea Analytics, you built solutions that improved public safety outcomes, and now at as Batra Coaching, you're improving human ones. So, how do you think about the bridge between data and dignity?

Jessica Herbert 19:33

Yeah, I really like this one. I really kind of kept me thinking for a while about, you know, the data and dignity piece. And um, you know, sometimes in data and tech, it feels so non-human, right? The computer, all the little microchips are spitting out some information. We now live in this world of AI, which is surely gonna cause a ton of challenges for folks uh and organizations. And that harshness of the machine producing the outcome actually further supports a separation from decision making, right? It's like, but that's what the computer said, and I get to ignore it because the computer wasn't right, right? The computer almost kind of takes on this other persona that we get to ignore because to some extent they're not quite talking back to us and saying, you know, they're not saying, no, no, this is this math is correct. This is a problem, right? And I think I think that's one of the things with data and dignity is that you you do have to allow that persona of of what the data is telling you to kind of be part of the reality. But to do it in not a blaming, shaming, or an unequitable way, I think you have to use that data and information in a way that kind of informs the dignity of leadership and decision making. And and it doesn't allow people to separate it. We've had plenty of agencies say, Yeah, yeah, we know that's a problem, but we're gonna, you know, put our resources somewhere else. And I'm like, Okay, well it's gonna continue to be a problem. What number would you like it to be at? You know, what number is gonna convince you? I always tell, you know, use this analogy a lot because it just makes sense to me and it even makes more sense as I age. But it's like, well, when you go and get that blood test and it says, hey, you might have a little bit of a cholesterol problem, you know, like do you just say, like, oh, it's well, it's really not that bad, and I'll just keep on? Or like, like, what number do you want it to get at before you realize, you know, some things need to change, right? Like, and and are you gonna wait for is there a number? And no one's ever told me a number. They're like, no, I think I want to get I want to get it 150% above the norm. Like no one has that answer, right? But they will tell you if they have a heart attack that they're probably really interested in making changes, right? To their diet, to their exercise, to their sleeping habits, you know, to to other things. And so, you know, I always think of of data that like don't ignore it when it's early. Right. And don't create that separation just because it can't talk that, you know, at the table just yet, I guess. But you know, think of it as like what what information is it telling you so that you can think and behave differently. And if you ignore it, then you're you should be aware enough to know that you are going to see something detrimental happen and you're going to be forced to then act. So you know, you never wish ill will on an individual or an organization, but you're like, at what point are you gonna ignore those kind of early warning signs or those kind of early indicators through the data to realize that there's some decision making that needs to be differently? And I think when you connect that piece for folks, they end up having a little bit more dignity.

Brian Aquart 22:49

Now I'd love to move to some some lessons learned here because uh I've just loved the the arc of our conversation. A lot of things have been happened throughout your career. And especially as we talked about the transitions, when you think about that, what did your first transition teach you that made the second one even possible?

Jessica Herbert 23:08

Mindset. Definitely. Mindset. You know, the first one, I definitely feel like it wasn't my choice in a lot of ways. You know, I I, you know, being young, I was like, no, I signed up for this. Like I'm in it until retirement. That's what they tell you you're working towards, right? And then all of a sudden, you know, slamming up against that wall to say, oh no, you are not in the right place. This is the the next half is gonna be a really long, bumpy path if you stay. You know, I I think mentally I was not like it just that was never really an equation. It was not really part of the the mental mindset that, like, hey, this might not work out. And so for the second time, it's you know, that mindset of recognizing the path, recognizing like, hey, there's some indicators here that are just not working out. And it's just not serving me the way that it once did. And so now I get to have a little bit more of a say of how do I leave, how do I walk out, how do I walk away, um, and in a way that I think is um, you know, allowing some of those indicators to get resolved. You know, I think I think that's part of the transformation, right? We're not waiting for the crisis, but we're we're letting those things kind of work itself out and see how it improves over time. So so I think that's the biggest thing for me is that the mindset about how you handle stress, how you think about things and and you know, when you're you're um frustrated, I call it being in the red zone, right? Like where you're like, every day I don't want to go into work. Every day it's another problem. I can't see the solution anymore. And and that to me is the red zone because it's like you don't know how to get out of that. And so being able to have a good resilient mindset to know like, hey, you're in the red zone and you gotta think differently about how to get out of here.

Brian Aquart 24:55

That's so important.

Jessica Herbert 24:56

So yeah.

Brian Aquart 24:57

No, without a without a doubt. And now let's talk a little about entrepreneurship. So, what what has this entrepreneurship space taught you about identity, your own or just identity as a whole after years being in these structured environments?

Jessica Herbert 25:11

Yeah, I think there's a sea of people. There's thousands of us, probably millions of us, that we're somewhere on the neurodivergent scale. We have these big ideas, we recognize that we haven't really ever conformed and we see the world differently. And as entrepreneurs, I think we have that like, I can do it, I can do it better, I can do it differently. And, you know, let's figure out how to make that because the system wasn't built for us and it doesn't value us. And and I think that's where, you know, entrepreneurship definitely showed me that there's more of those people than we think. I think sometimes, you know, because they're outside of the traditional organizations. Um, you know, we don't necessarily realize how big of a voice that is and how we can influence the market from that outside space, moving into the market, whether that's consulting, coaching, product development, various of things like that that I think are, you know, the energy behind entrepreneurship and things of that nature. And I'll I'll also add to that, I think the other thing that entrepreneurship has taught me that we often don't realize when we work for other people, 100% replaceable, because not everyone is meant to own a business. Um, and I'm not talking about the independent consultants out there. Not everybody is meant to have fund payroll, think about cash flow, PLs, you know, year-over-year growth, exit, EBITDA, like not it's not for everyone. And so you're a hundred percent replaceable in the entrepreneur market in the blink of an eye. Yeah. Someone else has a better idea.

Brian Aquart 26:47

That is a reality that some may not want to swallow, but I definitely hear where you're coming from. Now I would love to move to a bit of advice because you know we get a lot of listeners here who often feel stuck themselves, right? And so for professionals who have ever felt or currently feel stuck in a system that they once believed in, what's the first courageous step that they can take towards making a change?

Jessica Herbert 27:12

I th I there's so many steps that I thought of um on this one. I think the first step is the awareness that you're stuck. And a lot of people are not aware. I can remember from the first career, you know, someone who probably had no short of 50 arrests every given year for as many years as I was on the job. He looked at me one day and he goes, Miss Herbert, what's going on with you? You look like you've aged 10 years. Is life that bad? And I'm thinking to myself, like this guy is in the revolving door of the local jail. Some things will just always kind of work against him. You know, always been respectful, right? But you know, that's his that's his, you know, statement to me, right? Like this, like clear as day. Doesn't know much about me other than the fact that I'm there as much as he is, and I'm on the job, and he is not. And with that, I think, you know, I was like, this is Jen basically a complete stranger who is physically seeing something that I'm not. And also around the same time, my goddaughter was elementary school age, and we're driving one day, and she says to me, I don't like your job. Out of the blue, like just out of the blue. Like, we got the radio on, she's in the backseat in the car seat. Like, this is just, you know, we're going to run errands, it's normal afternoon. She's like, I don't like your job. And I'm like, Really? Tell me why, you know, because I'm thinking to myself, like, her little brain has no idea what I do.

Speaker 1 28:50

Right. Like, right.

Jessica Herbert 28:52

Like has no concept of these things, right? Other than like people leave in the morning and then they come back in the afternoon, right? Just like she goes to school. That's what things do. Well, I've never heard you, I haven't heard you laugh in a really long time. And you've missed a few things. And so I don't like it. Ah, those deadlines. Yeah. So it's like this really kind of raw reflection. And so for those folks that feel stuck that are trying to tell themselves, like, no, no, it's just this project, and I just have to get through this next deadline, or you know, I just have to wait out until someone else gets promoted, and then everything will be fine. Someone around you is saying these things. They may be complete strangers, um, or they may be somebody who's near and dear in love to you, and you're not listening. And I think that's the very first step that they take is to kind of pay attention to these clues from the universe and then start processing that in however it is that they process, right? Audio, talking it out with friends, visual, drawing, writing, things of that nature to kind of figure out the way forward. And I think that that's what opens everything up after getting unstuck.

Brian Aquart 30:01

Yeah, and I love that. And similar to that point, how do you differentiate between someone who maybe needs rest as opposed to someone who needs a full career like reinvention?

Jessica Herbert 30:11

Yeah, I don't think of this. This is where my data brain starts kind of turning of like, is this a one-zero question? Is this like one or the other? Like you can't have both. But I think this is where anyone who talks about burnout, stress, long long-term impacts of trauma, various other things, you know. I think I always think of some of Brene Brown's episodes where she talks about it that says, you know, when all of this is going on and you're feeling overwhelmed, like the number one thing for you to do is stop. It is not to lean in, it's not to have another meeting, it's not to try another planner or do something other different. It really is to stop. And that might be for a three-day weekend. Could be, you know, walk away from your desk for 10 to 15 minutes and change your, you know, immediate area. You know, walk around the building, go down to the cafe, whatever those things are. But the minute you stop doing anything related to work or that problem and you hike, bike, kayak, eat, explore, be in nature, try something totally different, those answers bubble up from your subconscious because your logical brain is pushing them down so that you can kind of get through the tough parts, but that's not the time to lean in. It's really is the time to rest. And sometimes the answers that bubble up is the career reinvention.

Brian Aquart 31:31

And now looking ahead, what's one truth about leadership you wish more people in data or public safety actually understood?

Jessica Herbert 31:39

You gotta make a decision, period. Chances are it's not gonna be a popular one, at least to somebody or a a group of folks. It's your whatever your decision is, it's not gonna be the popular one. Or every decision you make is not gonna be the popular one. But the lack of decision, the the conscious effort of like, I see that problem, but I'm not gonna address it. I'm gonna wait it out. I'm gonna think to solve something else before I solve that one, and that one's been there the longest. That indecision is what causes the kind of Swiss cheeseholes of an organization to happen, right? Like the foundation starts to get these cracks and individuals too, you know. For those of us that have have been stuck, the fact, you know, make the decision, take the month off, quit your job, find another job, get paid less, get paid more. Make a decision. You gotta create that momentum. You gotta create that energy in some direction or another, and then just pay attention as to whether it's the right path, not the sit and stay in the single space. That's never that that's not gonna work. That lack of decision making is never gonna work.

Brian Aquart 32:49

No, it makes a lot of sense. And now I'll flip the mic to you. And so, what's one question you have for me that I can hopefully answer?

Jessica Herbert 32:57

I know I you kind of touched on it a little bit because I feel like uh you know, the thing that I found most interesting in listening to other episodes and stuff is just that there's a so many different pathways. Again, my data brain is like there's all these sources that you've talked to. But they start to converge. Right? It's like a great little sand skiographic. Anybody out there in the analytical world knows what those things are. We like looking at those. So, in all the years that you've been doing this podcast and the evolution of these conversations, like what are those kind of three things you hear the most and here and talking to people about these transitions? What is that convergence?

Brian Aquart 33:41

Yeah, I think it all it's a one, it's a great question. I think the convergence here, especially in the original format of like great resignation and all of that. And now, as we've talked about career transitions at any time, is around the overcoming of fear, right? You mentioned three, but I can give you a couple more. But the the main one, the main one is overcoming fear. And it's fear for a variety of reasons. You have people who love what they do, or maybe not love is a strong word. They may like what they do, they do it, it's a means to an end, but they always have some little itch around I either need to be at another company or I need to do my own thing or something else. And people, what's great about the show is that you've seen people have those active conversations with themselves, sometimes during the interviews, but oftentimes, you know, when they when they eventually come to me, it's you know, I was thinking about this thing and finally I just decided to do X. And I'm always very curious. I want to know, well, what was the spark? Right. And initially, for from a great resignation standpoint, the spark was the time that people had to sit with themselves and be alone, had you sitting in silence, you're not going out talking to people, you weren't in the day-to-day of work with the water cooler talk and all those things. You had to sit with those questions and people actually answered them. Now, as I'm talking to folks and hearing about transitions at any time, you hear a similar thing. I was in this space because, you know, for whatever reason, like I wanted, I wanted to be here. I thought I wanted to be here, but something enlightened me that, you know what, I just, I got an inkling to do something else. And you know what? I just finally decided to do it. And so the biggest theme is overcoming fear. And, you know, you I would love, I mean, there's a whole host of episodes now. I'd love to maybe at some point, I don't know how we do this, right? But if we take and analyze all of these reasons, I think you would see that it comes down to this single thing. And it is actually at times I've thought kind of sad, but I think it's just part of reality in that we don't give ourselves enough space and time to answer those hard questions that we truthfully ask ourselves. And it's been almost like this social experiment, unintentionally, to be honest, and of the human experience and what we allow ourselves to do and what we don't, and what we know we at times we need to do, but still we don't, for fill-in-the-blank reason. And some of them could be viable reasons, but we don't do them nonetheless. So that's that's the big theme I would say.

Jessica Herbert 36:08

Yeah, that's it's good to hear you say that because I think in all these times that the concept is of fear has been the hardest thing for me to understand for others, right? Because the changes for me have never been based on fear. It's really been excitement. And yeah, so I think it would be interesting to go back and see, you know, how all of those things showed up because when you look at the the emotion wheel about fear, it's scared, cautious, anxious, nervous, insecure, vulnerability, threatened, distressed. And the opposite of that is excitement, you know, stressed, but in a positive way, right? Like you're you're feeling like it's a performance and moving things towards interest and energizing and good pressure to perform and to seek out things. So yeah, so it's really interesting of hearing you say fear, it's like an immediate negative instead of thinking like, hey, the some of these physiological reactions could be reframed to positive. And with that, my pivot could be less about closing a door and more about opening a door in the process.

Brian Aquart 37:15

Yeah, and I like the way, I like the way you you you frame that because when I think about like the overcoming of fear, it's like the it's like starting with the negative, but like a lot of these changes, truthfully, have been most of the change have been for the better, right? And so it was so I like how you how you frame that. This may be a rabbit hole I go down because I'd love to maybe bring together all the, and especially now with all these models, right? Maybe bring together a lot of my transcripts and start figuring out the science behind what folks are saying. So that I I don't I don't know where the qualitative respect for, I would say like this would be yeah, like right, I get excited about it, right?

Jessica Herbert 37:53

Because I'm just like, oh man, look at again how many data sources that you have and really being able to pick apart those theoretical constructs that both freeze people but also free them in the process. I think that's yeah, yeah. I like to talk again about it.

Brian Aquart 38:08

I was about to say, wait a minute, we're we're gonna talk. Um see these are the curiosity, these are the rabbit holes I end up going down. But I will say this before we wrap up like we will let's stay in touch because I have some ideas and I may need some some uh some help with how to frame it. So I make sure I pull out the right thing. So I just want to thank you one for that, but also thank you for for joining the show today. I'm glad you connected with me on LinkedIn and would love for you to give uh our listeners an opportunity to find you and support some of the work that you're doing.

Jessica Herbert 38:41

Yeah, absolutely. Uh you can find me on LinkedIn for both both of my companies, as well as just, you know, other posts that I put and you know, engage with. So there, I write a blog on digital transformations for public safety on Substack, and that'll continue to evolve. Probably by the time this episode comes around, it's uh uh evolved into some other things regarding leadership, not just in the public safety space, but part of this pivot and leaving that I'm doing. And last but definitely not least, in October of 2026, I am hosting a leadership retreat in Costa Rica. So for those leaders that are feeling a need to reset and refocus and explore what that next transition and their balance and transformation is, I welcome you all to um go on LinkedIn or my website and reach out. Let's have a conversation and see how I can help you in that retreat or in other ways to do that. Go and perfect. I love that.

Brian Aquart 39:36

Well, thank you for all that information. And look, that'll do it for today's episode. Again, I want to thank Dr. Jessica Herbert for joining me today. I'll put all of her information in our show notes. And I hope you all have a great week. I hope you've learned something, and we'll definitely see you next time. Dr. Herbert, thank you. Thanks for listening to why I left. Join us next time for more inspiring stories about growth, resilience, and transformation. Visit us online at www.yileft.co. That's whyileft.co.