Jean-Francois Cousin: Former Global Board Chairman of the ICF

An inspiring conversation with passionate coaching advocate Jean Francois Cousin, a global executive coach and former senior leader who has served CEOs, C-Suite executives, and leadership teams in 35 countries. Former Chairman of the ICF’s global board 

Jean Francois drops by Coaches in Zoom Drinking Coffee to share some wisdom from his extensive coaching experience.

Jean Francois trained as an engineer and enjoyed a successful corporate career before beginning his coaching journey at the age of 40. In this episode, he explains why he chose to pursue people over promotions and politics because this was - and still is - his passion.

He shares some of the early mistakes he made in his career, including marketing himself as a “jack of all trades” coach instead of niching down. He also unpacks some of the key values that have driven his career, including his belief that coaching should be an act of unconditional love for the potential of the client.

Jean Francois is one of our most popular Summit speakers, and in this episode, he demonstrates why! He takes this opportunity to provide some valuable insights on how coaches should approach their work with humility, ensuring their client remains the superstar, and how coaches can overcome imposter syndrome when working with high-level clients.

Coaching.com CEO Alex Pascal asks Jean Francois for his take on whether coaches should focus on asking questions or providing advice. In response, Jean Francois explains his strategies for stepping out of the role of coach and into a more mentoring role when the situation calls for it.

To hear more about the most prevalent problems that clients are bringing to Jean Francois’ coaching sessions, listen to the full episode. He offers some fantastic practical tips at the end!

Transcript

Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee - Jean-François Cousin

(interview blurb)

JF: One of the most important lessons I think is to really integrate and embody that coaching essentially is an act of unconditional love for the potential of the client. It’s that space where there is absolutely no judgment but loving curiosity about what greatness can emerge from the client.

(intro)

Alex: Hi, I’m Alex Pascal, CEO of coaching.com, and this is Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee. My guest today has served over 1,400 leaders and dozens of executive teams since 2006, visiting over 35 countries on six continents to partner with passionate about helping the coaching profession grow. He served as the chairman of the global board of the ICF in 2019 and, in recent years, he’s one of the highest rated WBECS by coaching.com Summit speakers.

(Interview)

Alex: Please welcome, Jean-François Cousin.

JF: Hey, Alex.

Alex: JF, how are you? 

JF: Good, and happy to see you. Thanks for having me, Alex. How are you yourself?

Alex: Yeah, I’m great. Thank you. You just reminded me a few minutes ago that we actually met in person years ago at the coaching conference in New York back when we used to go to in-person conferences, which hopefully are coming back.

JF: You presented coaching and technology and you were totally magnetic. I remember what you said, yeah. That was high impact. Great job you did then.

Alex: Thank you. A friend of mine the other day told me — well, we’ll name her, Shonna Waters that works at BetterUp, told me I was her favorite — it wasn’t agitator, I’m blanking on the word, but I just like to be a little controversial when I’m talking about coaching and technology and really thinking about the business models underlying coaching and technology. So, sometimes, in certain crowds, I like to just say some controversial things about business models and people get either very excited or very not that excited so I’m glad you enjoyed it. 

JF: Totally.

Alex: I’ll have to clarify where I’m talking about later on the episode. Also, we’ll talk about what’s happening in coaching, which I think is really exciting what we’ve seen in the last ten years so we’ll talk about all of that and I am sure I’ll remember the descriptor that Shonna used for me in that meeting we had recently. But it’s such a pleasure to have you join us today. Your past president of the global — part of the global board of the ICF and you’ve done a lot of fantastic work. So, I’m actually very curious to learn more about your coaching journey. I know you used to be an executive turned coach and you’ve written a book that we’ll talk about so very accomplished career and over 15,000 hours as a coach so really cool to explore many different topics with you today.

JF: Thanks, Alex, again, for having me. A pleasure, really. And thanks for what you’re doing, all of what you’re doing.

Alex: Oh, thank you. And before we get started, I don’t think I’ve ever taken so long to ask this question, so Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee, we don’t always drink coffee but we always drink something together so what are we drinking today, JF?

JF: We are drinking green tea, actually, and I’d love to state that quote from a French author and philosopher called Muriel Barbery, she said something like when tea becomes ritual, it takes its place at the heart of our ability to see greatness in small things, and then she asks the question where is beauty to be found, and those two words, like “greatness” and “beauty” are very important to me, Alex, so much for the quote and for green tea.

Alex: I love it. The beauty in small things, that’s such an important reminder. We go through our lives every day sometimes not really thinking too much about the little details and sometimes focusing on just the joy that you get with a cup of coffee or a cup of tea is an important reminder of how the little things make life better.

JF: A moment of mindfulness with relaxation, beauty involved, can provide inspiration for a while along the day. 

Alex: Absolutely. Love that. So let’s start at the beginning of your coaching journey. Do you remember that moment or that period where you recognized there was this thing called coaching and you were interested in it?

JF: Yeah, I do, Alex, yeah. That was towards the end of my first career in corporate and I was about 40, actually, Alex, and had reached a level in corporate where if I was promoted another time, then I would swim in oceans of politics and that did not appear very attractive to me, Alex, and I scratched my head to find what else could there be as a career development for me. Couldn’t find anything with my head but then my heart started screaming, “It’s people. You’re all about people. What you love in leadership is people so go and explore that,” and then I’m an engineer by background, Alex, so I put the engineer’s hat and I explored and coaching, that was like 17 years ago, quite a long time, and then felt really right. I thought perhaps, yeah, I can try. And so I decided to take the job. My colleagues were thinking I was beyond insane, but I did it. All from the heart and the guts, I guess. And so I went to coaching school and I established myself in —

Alex: Where did you go for school?

JF: ICA based in Australia. International Coaching Academy. And so I did the curriculum and at the same time, I established myself in Asia because there was no coaching much in Asia at that time so I thought, okay, let’s go and meet some other pioneers in Asia, attempt to create a market for coaching. And I went to — I had been based in several leadership positions in Asia in my career so I knew many people and I went to literally door to door, Alex, as I was learning at school and some people gave me some middle managers to coach. That’s where you start. And I did that and I loved it and I’m still there in Asia and still doing only coaching. I’m a blue-collar worker, I like to say, Alex. Mono task guy, only one activity, morning, evening, afternoon, seven days a week. Mono task guy.

Alex: Well, when an engineer turns coach, there’s a very methodical process I’m sure to run — you know, as we’re talking about your career transition, I’m thinking there’s so much to coaching because you essentially are becoming an entrepreneur when you decide to be a coach, right? So you were a career executive and now you’re getting trained in specific methodologies then you have to go and look for clients and run your business and do what is your new passion that is really not a new passion but it’s an old passion reimagined, right? Now you can make this a business. So, how were the first couple years living in Asia, you get certified and you start working with the clients? Were you specializing in a specific vertical? Were you working with a specific type of manager executive? Tell me a little bit more about those initial years running your coaching business.

JF: Yeah. Well, Alex, truthfully, I did all mistakes possible. For instance, I branded myself as the jack of all trades in coaching. Career coaching, life coaching, executive coaching, whatever, and I was glad at that time because coating was not known, I could be forgiven for what is insanity, really. That’s a very, very bad thing to do. We’ve got to find our niche before we get out of coating school and it’s, I think, the confluence or the intersection of our purpose, what type of difference we aspire to make, and also the intersection with what experience we have and also at the intersection of where there’s money to pay for our services, in fact. And for me, well, I was credible in the corporate world because I had been in leadership positions. I aspired purpose to unleash greatness in people and there was money in corporate so then, eventually, I had the sanity to decide I was going to be an executive coach and just that, nothing else, in fact. And, of course, once you are an executive coach or any other type of contract, you get business from other areas because people are drawn to you but first you’ve got to get your niche. So don’t do my mistake. Be focused. 

Alex: Well, if people are interested in watching you coach, they can find a lot of resources on the coaching.com ecosystem because you’ve done a lot of demos for us at the WBECS Summit by coaching.com and those demos are usually super popular. I actually think we have one available just if you create an account on coaching.com, we provide 10 sessions so you can watch some of the most watched sessions from the previous summit and I believe one of your sessions was there and I believe it’s still there. So, if not, just email us if you’re listening to the podcast and you want to have access to one of JF’s coaching demos and we’ll definitely send them your way. So very popular and so I’ve seen you in action in one of your interactions with a client. So you have over 15,000 hours of coaching. What are some of the lessons, if you were to summarize a few, that you’ve learned? I mean, you started with the first one around how you market yourself, jack of all trades, well, maybe not really, maybe I should be more specialized, let’s say, executive coaching. What are some of the other lessons when you look back at over 15,000 hours of coaching?

JF: One of the most important lessons I think Is to really integrate and embody that coaching essentially is an act of unconditional love for the potential of the client. It’s that space where there is absolutely no judgment but loving curiosity about what greatness can emerge from the client and the client has to feel that kind of love from you as a coach so the very first half of a second the client sees you on Zoom or face to face. And that’s a very unique space. Even their spouse does not love them in that way. There is always an agenda for them or preconceived ideas about how they should be and how they should do stuff. But for us coach, oh, we open that space where they are not judged, they are loved for their potential, and then, of course, they’re going to unleash it. That’s really important to, again, integrate and embody, that unconditional love. The second perhaps lesson is the importance of being authentic and humble and vulnerable, fully yourself so that the client can also be fully themselves and humble and vulnerable and, therefore, bring to the conversation everything that crosses their mind or they feel in their heart or in their guts and then we have rich conversations. And also think of it, Alex, we are in perhaps the most humble job in the world. There is no credit going to coaches. The superheroes are always the client, that’s how it has to be. We’re kind of backstage operators. It’s a humble profession, and so tactically and just out of integrity, being humble, vulnerable, our authentic self is extremely important. And then perhaps another lesson for the road, Alex, it’s the importance to completely integrate the definition of the ICF of approaching which is anchored in partnership. Many of us, and particularly me at the beginning, we’ve got the syndrome of the impostor. Who am I if not a total fraud to coach that great successful executive, for instance? Really, who am I? I’ve never attained the level of success they have and it’s important to think, hey, we’re just a thinking partner. We’re there to create that space and perhaps ask a couple of questions that will help them elicit their best thinking and express all of what they have to express in their body. Come on, you don’t need to be really anybody but just do the job, be a partner. That’s really important to integrate to overcome the impostor syndrome that I think eats at all of us when we begin. Make sense, Alex?

Alex: Absolutely, and the impostor syndrome is interesting because a lot of clients that we encounter out there in the wild are actually suffering from impostor syndrome. I think it’s a pretty highly prevalent aspect of the way people relate to themselves and I think it’s also part of the kind of world that we live in today where the impact that we can have working in organizations is so high and it’s so pervasive across the world that it’s almost like, “How can I be making all these happen? How can I be running this large organization?” I think it happens to a lot of people. I think, from the research, I think it happens more to women as well. To be able to be present as a coach and understand your value and not try to provide too much value but just provide the right amount of value, I think that comes with expertise. So across thousands of hours of coaching, I think you start recognizing. It’s similar to when you recognize, like in the Socratic approach, I only know I know nothing, and that’s a really good starting point for looking at things in a different way. I think the reason why we call it a “coaching practice” is because, as a coach, once you get really good, you make something look very easy but it’s actually very difficult. Creating that partnership with the client, being there for them, providing support but also challenging them in the right measure and not making it about yourself but making it about the client, all of that really speaks to the dynamic nature of the coaching profession and it’s really an experiential, evolving practice. That is one of the reasons why I’m so fascinated by coaching. 

JF: Yeah, I’d love to rebound on two things you said, Alex. The second first, which is all we know is we know nothing. So very important. We coach at our best when we have no clue of what could be a solution to the client’s problem and we coach at our very worst when our brain is polluted by ideas of possibilities of solution. And perhaps the ultimate proof of this is my first interaction with a young tech guy, a founder of a startup, ten times more brilliant than me, at least, perhaps a hundred times in terms of intellectual speed, plus he was speaking with acronyms, I had no clue what he was telling me about, and so I hardly opened my mouth along the first hour we spent together and I thought to myself when he left, “That must be such a disaster.” I felt so bad. And then just the next day, he said, “Okay, when can we schedule our next session?” And to this date, quite many years later, I’m still he’s thinking partner and I still have not much clue what he’s telling me because I’m that dumb, and he finds immense value. He also recommended me to several of his friends and I have no clue what they’re talking about. But they enjoy that space where they can often get to common sense because they work very complex business models and they lose common sense sometimes. That’s one. Another one is it’s very difficult for them to arrive at simplicity, and, of course, I’m like a peasant in the good way and my family is from the farm, so I mean that respectfully, I’m like a peasant with common sense and I like things simple because this is going to work, that’s what they get from me, and they treasure that. So, again, very, very humble job. Second thing I want you to rebound on is when you say, Alex, women can have impostor syndrome at least as much as male and I would love to tell to the women who listen to us, you were born genetically better leaders than men and there’s tons of research that proves that and one of the most striking, I think, is a survey from several years ago that stands the test of time and that’s from Grant Thornton, actually that consulting company, studied 10,000 360 surveys, in fact, 5,000 from men, 5,000 from women. So 360 survey are those surveys where people, colleagues, co-workers are invited to rate on a number of competencies the leader that is the subject of the 360 survey. So 5,000 women, 5,000 men were the subject of these 10,000 surveys. And there were 16 competencies. Women came out with higher ratings on 13 of the competencies, were on par with men on two, and men were higher in competency on one, which is strategic thinking, in fact. And it all makes sense. That goes back to when we were in the savanna, the men were hunting, they needed to be strategic, what is tactical to kill their preys, and the women did all the rest. So, again, hold your head high, you are better leaders in general than men. And, men, don’t take it badly. Take this as an opportunity to activate more of your femininity. Yeah? Then you are a more complete leader. I hope I’m not shocking anybody here, Alex. Please stay tuned, we’ve got more to offer, perhaps you’ll like it better.

Alex: No, so many things to unpack here, like so many things to unpack, so in terms of activating the femininity, I agree. I think we’re now living in times where men are more comfortable recognizing that they have a, what we can refer to as a feminine side, and women have to spend less time in the workforce thinking about how to come across and they can just come across as they are and unleash that creative power of the relationship-oriented female approach that is so important for business. I’m not surprised that research shows that women are better leaders than men. I mean, women tend to be more relationship oriented and, as we know, business is a game of relationships and being mindful about them and men tend to be more individualistic. There’s so much to unpack in what you were saying. I do think men should be more in tune with their feminine side and I think we hear a lot about toxic masculinity and I think a lot of men suffer from that. There’s a part of yourself that you feel like you can’t identify with and creates this struggle and I think we’re making good progress in the world in terms of talking about these issues and creating workplaces that are better for women to thrive in and also creating a world in which men can feel more comfortable with aspects of themselves, you know, boys don’t cry. That kind of way of looking at the world, I think, is slowly hopefully kind of coming to a transitionary period or we’re definitely in that transition period. But I want to go back to something you said, because one of the common things that comes up in coaching is that there are two camps and maybe some camps in between of thinking about coaching as being really questioned oriented and you should never provide advice and other camps that are all about the coach asking great questions but also leaning into the advice when it feels appropriate. I think the answer is probably somewhere in between where I think depends on the client, depends on the coach, depends on the relationship, and it is a pretty nuanced topic, one that I know is controversial. In a lot of ICS circles, it is really very question oriented. So I would love to hear more about your philosophy around is coaching really exclusively question oriented? Is there room for advice? Tell us everything about your thoughts on this topic, JF.

Alex: Yeah, with pleasure and it’s going to be very practical. Yeah. Coaching is all about unleashing the best possible thinking and clarifications from the client, but then there are moments where the client misses some experience or maturity, wisdom, or data to conclude their thinking in a robust way, which means, at that moment, coaching will not help them invent what they miss some elements to invent and that’s where we need to shift into mentoring so ask permission to the client to perhaps add some element of data, wisdom, experience for their consideration. So that is shifting into mentoring for a minute because, without it, the client will not get to a robust solution because they have blind spots, and then we can go back to coaching. Now, when we do that, number one, we’ve got to ask for permission and, number two, since we give something, the elements again of data, of experience, or maturity, wisdom, we’ve got to, in a way, make the client pay for it, that’s not nice words, but it’s really the best for the client. It’s all too likely that they’re going to say, “Oh, wow, yeah. That is great. Oh, my. Yeah, exactly what I need to do.” Whoa, whoa, bullshit. This is bullshit. It’s just like, wow, they’re like a firework, it’s all too easy. No, no, we’re going to make them pay for it by challenging them. Yeah. “So tell me more about what’s really cool about that and how applicable it is to your world, pros and cons, what can go wrong,” and all that until they appropriate the idea and probably evolve it into something that is robust so then we’re back in coaching already. Makes sense, Alex?

Alex: Absolutely. I think advice sometimes can be used as a crutch to not take the client through a coaching process to get to an answer. So the coach, I think it’s perfectly fine for the coach to see where the coach wants the client to go but then sometimes it’s almost like a shortcut to provide advice versus asking the questions that will take the client in that path, which is a very different way to get to a conclusion. I think advice is fine and I wouldn’t necessarily not even go outside of the role of the coach and say, “May I come out of this role?” In my experience, different takes, right? Like I really appreciate you saying, “I’m going to get out of the coach role and I’m going to do some mentoring. Is that okay?” I think that, to me, is a stylistic thing so I think that’s your style, 100 percent I think that that is a good path. For me, that wouldn’t feel like it’s genuine, for example, so I will probably reference that, look, that was — when you provide some advice so maybe I’ll make the transition a little bit less marked but I think marking it and making sure that the client understands that transition is also very important. So, I think that’s a little bit on the range of different approaches, but what I worry about advice when I’m doing coaching is that I do see it as a crutch and sometimes just want to cut the corner and go somewhere a little bit faster. I think in some cases, it’s good, and in some cases, the client really needs to walk that path to come up with that solution and I think recognizing that and fine tuning, that, to me, is what I look for versus make sure that I let them know that I’m going to go outside of the roles. It’s interesting, I think both different approaches, both valid, depending on the coach’s style and what you’re trying to accomplish. But that was very interesting. You remind me of kind of coach training when you were kind of getting out of that role, there’s definitely a lot of that advice going through coach training. I went through my coach training at CCL, the Center for Creative Leadership, the new coach orientation program that they had, so, yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever talked about that before in the podcast.

JF: Yeah. Well, I worked as an associate coach for quite many years with CCL. Not recently, but nice community.

Alex: Yeah, it really is a nice community. You know what, I remember what was the word that Shonna Waters used to describe me when you were talking about the presentation you saw in New York so I said we’ll come back to that at some point so I want to bring that up and I want us to talk about what the latest happenings in coaching, let’s say, what you’ve seen the last five years or so and how technology is changing the landscape of coaching for good, for bad, for whatever you think. I’m curious to hear your opinion. So she called me her favorite provocateur.

JF: Yes.

Alex: So I guess there’s these two terms that I use to describe the business models in coaching, an aggregation model and an integration model. So I always talk about coaching.com as we’re an integrator, so in an industry filled with aggregators, because the coaching business model is an aggregation model, so you have independent coaches and you have coaching companies that aggregate those coaches, they make sure that there’s a layer of quality supervision, there’s a development model that gets used with clients, but all these are independently constructed coaches, you aggregate them, you aggregate content, and then you go package that and sell it to an enterprise. So that is an aggregation model and when you look at the coaching industry, whether it’s tech-enabled coaching firm, a traditional coaching provider that’s boutique or a global provider like CCL, they follow an aggregation model. So just been a little controversial in some situations, some conferences, that was the word, “provocateur,” so I guess I’m a little bit of a provocateur. It sounds like you liked the presentation at the conference which was many years ago now, probably five, six years, perhaps. So, would love to learn more about your experience in terms of how coaching has been changing with the use of technology over the last, let’s say, five to ten years.

JF: Yeah, so thanks. I see pros and cons to that evolution of democratization of coaching. So the pros, obviously, are with technology. we can reach — well, the industry can serve so many more on a rather cost effective basis, that’s great. Now, a serious con is the quality of the services provided often, when companies want more of their people to benefit from coaching and they are on very tight budget and, therefore, they will offer very limited coaching to their managers, to mid-level managers. So is that good or bad? Can be both actually. Can be good for whatever session they have but it can also be bad because the work is not totally finished. And also, another thing is some of the aggregators pay their coaches, I believe, very little and so how can this motivate coaches to bring out their best? Perhaps they have to book 20 hours a month for that aggregator, and out of those 20 hours, they don’t sell to anybody else, they will have only seven 30-minute focused laser coaching sessions. This is very, very bad business, in fact. So how is a coach going to be motivated to do their best, take care of their continuous education if they are paid so little for so big a commitment? So I’m very worried about that thing. So my invitation is to aggregator is just be totally respectful of coaches, for the sake of business. It’s going to be good for business if your coaches feel respected and feel that it’s good doing business with you, aggregator.

Alex: Yeah, and the aggregator could be, that’s the model and it could be a well-paid model so I think you can be an aggregator, like any coaching company is an aggregator so some are well paid, some are not well paid, and I think we’ve seen some of that out there. But I think that the use of technology in coaching and like the tech-enabled coaching firms have really done a lot to bring the conversation to people that now know that they may want to work with a coach and companies are making coaching more available than ever before. There’s definitely challenges with every emerging model but, all in all, I think the overarching impact of the last five, six, seven, almost ten years now has been positive. I mean, I remember when I started first raising money for CoachLogix that then became coaching.com, investors would be like, “It really sounds like you understand this market but why coaching? Why would any company pay for coaching services? I can see it for executives but anyone else?” So now really the conversation has shifted and everyone knows what a coach is. It’s not like, “Oh, you mean like a tennis coach? You mean like a soccer coach?” No, it’s like everyone knows, like, wow, there’s these people out there that can help you be more in tune with your goals, help them achieve them, whether it’s personal, professional, and you could also help organizations develop, which is really cool. I think our profession has gotten validated.

JF: Absolutely. And in no small part thanks to the work you did and some of us did as well in making possible to democratize coaching, making it accessible to a far greater number of people than before, so cheers to that. 

Alex: Cheers to that, yeah, no, it’s an exciting time, I think. There’s more people getting coaching every year, which is really exciting. And, yeah, the supply of coaches, the increased supply of coaches is very interesting. I think coach training organizations are doing really well. There’s an increased need for coaching but also an increased interest and as a lot of the boomer generation retires from the workplace, I think a lot of baby boomers are finding that getting certified in coaching and starting a coaching business is actually a really good path for kind of like a semi-retirement kind of lifestyle where you can make good money, you can work with younger generations in the workplace, and be prepared to help them be more effective, more efficient, be more in tune with their values. I mean, there’s so much knowledge of a generation that leads the workforce so coaching could be a really good tool to impart that knowledge, through questions and a little advice.

JF: And those of us, those of you who listen to us and who are perhaps about to retire, another strong benefit I see from engaging in coaching education and then doing some coaching is it will keep you young forever. I’m just going to say the moment you stop learning, you start dying. And coaching in essence is you’re going to learn so much from the young people you’re going to coach, you learn as much as they learn along the coaching interaction, in fact.

Alex: I agree.

JF: Great coaches always have extremely positive energy, Alex, you notice that. They’re young at heart, because they learn every hour of their day when they coach. It’s amazing.

Alex: So I want to tap into some of the lessons that you’ve had from doing so much coaching. So what are some of the main reasons that you think leaders and people and organizations are hiring coaches right now?

JF: Thanks for the question. That’s another important moment in the conversation, right? Why? So what I’ve observed and colleagues are observing as well, particularly over the last two and a half years since the pandemic unleashed itself, is unprecedented level of tiredness. People feel so very tired and for real reasons. In such a crisis, the mind, which is essentially a tool to bring clarity, safety, is exhausted because there is no clarity, there is no safety, and so that’s the first reason people hire coaches at the moment over the last couple of years, Alex, in my experience. Yes, I feel tired, really, really tired. And so what we’re going to do is explore at a deep level what’s depleting their physical stamina, their intellectual vigor, if you will, their emotional resilience, Alex, and then we’ll find often that they have some kind of basic needs or basic rights that they have sacrificed, particularly women. In fact, at a dear cost to their wellbeing and so they’ve got to reprioritize self-care, embrace some activities that will maintain the health in a holistic fashion. In fact, any coaching engagement, executive coaching engagement, Alex, always starts with kind of an assessment of the health or wellbeing of the coachee, yeah. So that’s the first reason, tiredness. Another reason, Alex, that abounds is that feeling of overwhelm, and in the pandemic, it was exacerbated, I think. It’s like I’m overwhelmed by the ever growing number of expectations from me and so we’ve got to work with a plan so they extract themselves from victimhood, they reclaim their confidence, their capability to make decisions, and then rise above the expectations, whatever they are, to see what matters most and then arbitrate between competing priorities and then communicate their choice. That is really important and, yeah, one of the main reasons, Alex, at the moment why we get some business in coaching, yeah. And then there will be also those executives who need a thinking partner to clarify their strategy or their vision or their way forward as a business, those who’ll be interested in developing a culture of excellence or re-engaging their workforce or promoting more diversity in the workplace, and there, again, we’re going to act as a challenging thinking partner, Alex. Another big-ticket item in our field is those executives, managers who want to gain influencing skills in highly complex environment with lots of politics, like matrix organizations playing the game with global functions in corporate practice and so finding out through deep work, Alex, how they can enhance their self-confidence in the first place and then gain that influence, yeah, that’s a big ticket at the moment, Alex. And then there’s also quite often over the last two and a half years in particular, and that I think is going to continue for a while, at least, that help they seek to make tough decision. For example, restructuring, so letting go some people, and they want to be respectful and do that in the best way but it’s preventing them from sleeping at night and then we’re going to work with them in coaching so they find the best way to protect the organization’s future and then the best support for those people who will be impacted negatively. And that will be of tremendous value to them, to the organization, and to the people as well who are impacted. That would be some of the most frequent topics at the moment, Alex. How does that resonate with you? 

Alex: Yeah, it absolutely resonates. I think we’re still learning a lot from those pandemic years. Seems now we’re like in this post-pandemic stage and I think the focus on wellbeing as part of coaching really kind of rose through the ranks of the topics and themes that coaches were working with their clients on their engagements, because the world is very different and the world of work is very different post pandemic. You mentioned layoffs as well. I mean, every other company is going through a layoff right now and it is hard for executives to manage that process, whether you’re a decision maker or whether you’re someone that might be in a position to lose their job. I mean, when you’re working with coaches, I mean, those are things that come up, right? “How do I lay off people in a way that aligns with my values when my values don’t include laying people off, but I have to,” or, “How do I start planning potentially for a new job since I may be losing my job?” This also reminds me of one of the proverbial issues in the coaching profession, which is who’s your client, the coachee, the organization that’s paying for the coaching, I think that dual agency problem is always there for coaches that work in organizational systems. Anything to say about that relationship? It’s like how do you communicate to your client, like who’s the client, how do you share the boundaries of confidentiality, like how do you deal with that, JF? 

JF: For me, it’s easy, Alex. There is no duality here. I have only one client, that is my coachee. I serve my coachee. And so with absolute confidence, in those organizations who don’t wish that coaching is played in that manner, then they can hire somebody else but not me. So that’s very clear from the start. Then I explain to companies that up to 50 percent, believe it or not, up to 50 percent of my clients at some stage in the coaching and sometimes from the get-go think of leaving the organization because they don’t like it and all that. And perhaps, surprisingly, coached over 1000 and a half leaders all around the world, none has left the organization less than six months after coaching. So they did — my package is 20 hours, they did that 20 hours of coaching over nine months, they found out that perhaps they were going to leave but there were so many things they had to experience and evolve their way of being, their way of doing things and that was worth it that they wanted to try before they go out. And so there is no duality. I have only one client, the coachee, and that is for the greater good of the business as well because if there is no space for the coachee to have a really robust brainstorming session about what’s best for him or her next, then he or she is going to go and have chats over glasses of wine with their friends about, “Yeah, probably it’s better I join that other company, it’s much cooler,” and then they leave their organization even if they have a coach, but they didn’t use a coach as a candid, unbiased resource, and then they go and it’s a bad decision. Oh, too but, everybody loses, right? So it’s in the interest of the organization to have the coach serve exclusively coachee’s wellbeing with, of course, some boundaries here is the coach, the code of ethics of the ICF. Intends to harm themselves, harm the company, harm anything, really, then we stop.

Alex: Well, that makes sense. And interestingly enough, coaching has been proven to increase retention and engagement so if you think about this distributed workforce of today, I think in also a layoff environment where if you’re working in an organization and there were layoffs, I think some organizations, you want to keep people retained and you want to keep them engaged. So coaching is really a good tool in the arsenal. I think that’s why we’re seeing a lot of growth in coaching and we’ll see what their future holds for coaching. I think it’s bright. Obviously, we’re going through a little bit of an economic, I don’t want to say meltdown but the last year has been tough. We are in a recessionary environment, high interest rates, a little bit of uncertainty with the war in Ukraine, the inflation, energy prices so there’s a lot going on in the world but I’m feeling very bullish about how coaching can help organizations and individuals navigate through this little bit of a tumultuous process. So, yeah, that’s what we’re here for. So I talk as I’m a coach because I’ve done so much coaching, hundreds of coaching relationships, but I don’t really do a lot of coaching these days. I have like one or two clients at a time, usually just one, but I’m looking forward to one day doing a lot more. It’s fun what you do, don’t you — I can tell you love it, JF, which is awesome. 

JF: I love it. And I’m thinking, Alex, the more complex and the more disruptive the world becomes, and that’s all very sad, the bigger the need for coaching. 

Alex: I agree.

JF: From that kind of cynical approach, yeah, because the trend towards complexity and disruption seems really strong for years to come. So many geopolitical and macroeconomic factors. Yeah, obviously, the need for coating will always rise, I believe. Yeah.

Alex: Wonderful. Anything else you would like to add for the many coaches listening in?

JF: Yeah. Perhaps a couple of practical tips, in fact. One of the most important things, of course, that we as coaches want to deliver is sustainable, great value for our clients and that means that you need to obsess at the beginning of every session, obsess about finding a really profoundly beneficial objective with clients. Often, they come with an objective, that is the tip of the iceberg, don’t go for it. Try to probe, go deeper, and find with the client an objective that can be life changing. Do we have time for a one-minute illustration of this, Alex? 

Alex: Yeah, of course. 

JF: I’ve got a guy called Joe, he comes to me very excited and he tells me, “JF, you know, I know you always want me to have something important to bring to the conversation. Today I have. It’s about the color of my new car. I decided between pink and blue.” Very excited, unable to think so I’m going to try and calm him down step by step and say, “Thank you very much, Joe, and I wonder, what is important about that decision?” So then the guy is still excited, he’s like, “Oh, it’s very important because I want to get married. It’s that time in my life. I’ve got to get a good wife. Car is important. The color matters.” Still excited, but at least I picked up one information, it’s about something much bigger than a car. So then still very calm, I will say, “Thanks for sharing, and I wonder, Joe, at a deep level within you, what could this really be about?” So then, eventually, the guy is going to start thinking so it’s going to look ugly, probably a big sigh, hitting his head, and after a minute, the conclusion will be, “JF, it’s not about the car. It’s like, in the first place, what does it mean to be a good husband? Am I good material to be a husband, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And then the objectives that I will eventually ask for at that stage of his thinking process will be find out what it means to be a good husband and how I can bridge the gap if I’m not a good husband material yet. That is life changing. Whereas choosing the color of his car, he can do with the spouse at the bar or the coffee shop, yeah. So do that. Extremely important. Every session, create enormous and sustainable value for your client.

Alex: The value of asking a few questions, digging deeper, trying to uncover what’s under the surface.

JF: Yeah, that is absolutely — from the get-go. Perhaps one more tip for the road and that would be don’t obsess about your questions. Young coaches are always in their head, “What is the great smart question I can ask next?” Whoa, so bad. No, no, no, don’t do that. Just listen, be present, and the next question will come up organically from your whole being. And if it takes one minute, then that’s all good. Why? Because the client has one minute more to process and progress. So don’t be obsessed about the quality of the question. They don’t matter much really because clients answer most times to the question you should have asked and didn’t because that is what helping them.

Alex: Absolutely. Be present, be in tune with the conversation, and track it, be there, not be thinking about — sometimes when you obsess with adding value, then you actually are more focused on your own needs, which is to feel like you’re adding value then to actually add value, right?

JF: Absolutely. So well said, I think, Alex, we’re not in the business of adding value or helping people. We’re not. We are in the business of enabling them to empower themselves to add value to their future, empower themselves, we’re enabler, they empower themselves, to add value to them, that’s the business.

Alex: Absolutely. And when you put it like that, it’s a very selfless business. It is really about other people focusing on their needs but it is so rewarding and at the other side of that, if you really focus on the person, you gain so much and you learn from the way people think. It’s so cool to work with different clients in different industries, and different roles, you’ll learn so much about the context they operate under and the really cool thing about coaching is that if you get really good in the art and science of coaching, then you can really help people across different verticals. In some cases, an engagement would require someone to have specific expertise and the client might want it and it might be a really good thing, but in so many other cases too, a coach that is a good coach, that is in tune with themselves and other people and their clients, they can really tap into their knowledge and be helpful to people across different industries, seniority levels, different issues. Coaching is a whole universe of information and it comes down to being present, right? It really resonates with me how you describe it. Well, JF, thank you so much for joining us in this episode of Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee. It was a pleasure talking to you and I’m looking forward to your next WBECS Summit by coaching.com session. Always so popular.

JF: Yeah, thanks very much. It will be on second of June and it will be a demo and it will be titled Coach like Einstein Would and Enable Quantum Leaps. I’ve read a lot about Einstein, I think he kind of invented coaching in his own way but never did it. We’ve got so much to learn and integrate about his philosophy in coaching. So that’s going to be fun. Thanks for the invitation, Alex.

Alex: Love that.

JF: It’s a pleasure, really. Thanks for all you do again.

Alex: Thank you so much. Love that. Einstein is one of my favorite thinkers and obviously a tremendous physicist, like unbelievable, but also a great thinker and a humanist and there’s a lot of sides to Einstein that not everyone knows about so it’s fascinating. I didn’t know what the topic was yet so that’s great. And if you’re listening to the podcast, JF refers to June 2023, I don’t know when you’re going to listen to this recording but it may be that the date has passed so that’s your reference right there. But, JF, thank you so much for everything you do. Great connecting and we’ll talk to you soon.

JF: All the best and thanks to the audience as well. Take care, Alex. Thanks again. Take care.