Steven MacGregor: International Speaker and Leadership Development Expert

In this episode, host Alex Pascal discusses with Steven MacGregor, a renowned international speaker and leadership development expert his journey from academia to a prominent figure in the field of workplace wellbeing. 

The conversation highlights his innovative approach to enhancing organizational performance through wellness initiatives.

MacGregor discusses the importance of distinguishing between wellness and wellbeing, suggesting that while wellness often focuses on recovery from daily strains, wellbeing integrates healthful practices into the fabric of everyday life. 

He emphasizes sustainable performance, advocating for balanced work routines that include necessary breaks and recovery periods to prevent burnout and enhance long-term productivity.

Throughout the conversation, MacGregor shares his insights on design thinking and its application in leadership, underlining the role of thoughtful design in creating effective and fulfilling work environments. 

His approach to wellness incorporates a holistic view, considering physical, mental, and emotional health as integral to fostering a productive organizational culture.

The podcast provides a comprehensive look at how personal and organizational wellbeing can be cultivated to improve overall performance and job satisfaction. 

MacGregor's perspective is particularly valuable for leaders and coaches aiming to implement more thoughtful and sustainable practices in their workplaces or with their clients.

Transcript

Steven: The key for stress management and also for sustainable performance is looking at the way of working. So it can’t just be in a very linear, always-on fashion, but you’re looking at working hard absolutely but then taking a step back and valuing recovery.

(intro)

Alex: Hi, I’m Alex Pascal, CEO of Coaching.com, and this is Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee. My guest today is an international speaker and leadership development expert. He’s the author of a trilogy of books in the wellbeing space that includes Sustaining Executive Performance, Chief wellbeing Officer, and The Daily Reset. Please welcome Steven MacGregor.

(Interview)

Alex: Hey, Steven. How are you?

Steven: I’m great, Alex. Looking forward to this conversation with you today.

Alex: Likewise. Let’s start where we always start with Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee. What are we drinking today? 

Steven: Well, I’m sad to say it’s not coffee because I am a huge coffee fan but given that it is almost 5:30 p.m., I don’t think that would be wise for me this time of day so I’m just drinking a green tea. 

Alex: I am actually drinking the same. I’m drinking this jasmine tea that I like. I didn’t think about this years ago when we started the podcast that I’ve never been a huge coffee drinker. I like it. Maybe I was drinking a little more coffee when we came up with the idea of Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee and kind of the coffee theme but I’m cutting back on coffee a little bit so, yeah, green tea is great. We might have to rename the podcast at some point.

Steven: That’d be fun. No, I always remember — I love the title, just very quickly, I remember when Jerry Seinfeld started the show, the Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee and it was so much fun, it was so innovative. I mean, you could talk about tea and coffee all day and it has been a part of my kind of work and wellbeing. But, anyway, maybe we can get to that, but plenty of other things to talk about too.

Alex: Definitely. But it came from an homage to Jerry Seinfeld, one of my favorite shows, and it’s a catchy name. And, oftentimes, I do drink coffee with our guests, but people have asked for wine and beer and all sorts of things. It’s tough sometimes when it’s early in the morning in California and someone wants to drink wine with you. But in the first couple episodes, I was very brave and we did things like that. It has normalized and now we mostly do coffee and tea and things like that but we’ll see what the next episodes will bring. It’s great to have you with me today joining from Barcelona, I love it. Need to go visit soon, it’s been a while. I would love for you to kind of take me through your journey. You have a very interesting background. You have a doctorate in design thinking. In the last many years, you’ve been focused on wellness and wellness has become I think an ever increasing topic in organizations so I’m very interested to learn a lot more about that space with you today. So take me through that journey of your career, please. 

Steven: Yeah, so I say recently to folks that I’m a recovering academic, but I still value a lot of that training that I had. So I did a PhD in design thinking and a lot of that was on the West Coast, not far from you. I was a visiting researcher at Stanford many moons ago, back 2001. That was before the Institute of Design and the d.school kicked off just a couple of years but I was doing research in the Center for Design Research there, which was one of the centers that helped form d.school. And I looked at virtual teams so a lot of what I was doing was looking at an area that became very useful during the pandemic, Alex, but during that doctorate, I started to have a question that started to form and that was about how we best perform, how we find, I think, fulfillment in life. And a lot of those things stuck with me. And especially when I was at Stanford, I had such a great time. A lot of my friends with whom I’d shared some fun years in Glasgow where I had done my master’s degree in engineering and then doctorate at the University of Strathclyde, or in the world of work and they were making a salary and I was a poor student still, but I felt I was happier, right? And I started to think about the experience of the workplace. Those travels, I went to Carnegie Mellon also and I got back home to Scotland and I felt like I had to get moving again and I moved to Spain. So it’s been 21 years now in Spain. And, as everyone can hear, I’ve lost all traces of my Scottish accent after 21 years away. But I came to Spain and I started teaching and doing research at the local business school here and I would see executive education programs in particular and a lot of senior executives who were having this learning and development experience and it just didn’t look right. It was very passive, it was very sedentary, and I felt that the more senior they were in the organization, the less well they were. And so linked to these questions in the West Coast, I started to think about the experience of work and the role of health and wellbeing in driving performance. And there was a couple of precedents there. I remember an executive health program by Juliette and Michael McGannon, INSEAD Business School, just outside Paris, France, and then also the corporate athlete methodology, which was a very important work, and I felt that, hey, I need to try and design a program here and that was basically the starting point for career in wellbeing and it’s been a lot of fun ever since.

Alex: That’s awesome. Thank you for taking me through that journey. Let’s define wellness a little bit more. I think it’s become a little bit of a broad topic. Let’s narrow it down a little bit. What is your definition of wellness? 

Steven: Before jumping in a definition, I’d like to make a distinction first, Alex, and I talk about this a lot. For me, what I work in as wellbeing, and even though wellbeing and wellness are used interchangeably, and even myself, I found myself doing it in a lot of conversations, depending on the context, whether it’s personal or professional, we could use both words, but, for me, they’re very different. Wellness for me is about — and it’s a hugely important facet of our lives and a multibillion dollar industry. But wellness for me connotes some notion of fixing. We fix ourselves from the damage that we do in our normal daily lives. It could be from the workplace. So in the evenings when we finish work or at the weekends or on vacation or we take a wellness day our organization gives us. It’s about fixing ourselves, relieving ourselves, feeling more healthy, more well, recovering. For me, wellbeing isn’t something separate, it’s something within our daily lived experience or within our normal, busy working lives and how can we find that contentment, that fulfillment, that optimum health, that allows us not just to improve these measures of health and wellbeing and wellness at the end of the day but to also improve performance. And I think that also gives us the avenue that workplaces can implement more wellbeing. I think if workplaces call it wellness, even without fully buying in perhaps to that distinction that I just made, it gives permission to an imperfect workplace. Whereas what I try and do through wellbeing tactics and strategies is really make that a part of the workplace so that we can create more thriving. I know it’s a word that is often overused and I wasn’t sure whether to use it there. The more fulfilled human being, they’re within the workplace and they’re performing to the best of their abilities but they’re also having a good time. And it comes back to all these questions that I planted during my doctorate, seeing these stressed out executives, post pandemic, a lot of these questions are front and center. But I think a lot of the conversation is still we have work and we’re getting results and we’re working hard but the wellness side or wellbeing or whatever you want to call it is still very much at the margins. And I want to bring that much more to the center.

Alex: Thank you for really the explanation around the difference between wellness and wellbeing. See, I’m seeing wellbeing all over your bio and I just say wellness so I’m sure I’m not the only one that does that. So, let’s get into kind of defining wellbeing a little bit more. So, I think you made the point for why wellbeing is important for organizations but when you think about it and you’re working with clients, how do you parse that out? How do you break that up into different facets that then you can go and work with individuals, teams, and also think about it from the organizational lens?

Steven: Yeah. So, you can look, as you say, parsing that into different elements and, of course, you have different models that exist and you can look at the same if you consider health as well, health and wellbeing often kind of overlap quite significantly. And things like the corporate athlete methodology, which more specifically energy but it was still very useful so they looked at physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual and then you have other models. And then, obviously, in the world of coaching, you have the 360 way of looking at a client’s life and those different areas and, of course, mental health being very important in the last couple of years, much more of a conversation, people will be much more vulnerable, and bringing that to the workplace isn’t just about the physical side of things. So, bringing a lot of these things together, then we generally look at these main areas and those being physical and mental/emotional absolutely is in there, spiritual wellbeing is in there, and it could regard religion but a lot of that is focused on the notion of purpose, our why in our life journeys, and links also to notions of belonging within the workplace and mission within the workplace, which I think is a huge source of energy, you know, energy, just in general, I think, and each of these elements is huge. And I think the final one apart from these three would then be — oh, sorry, two more, rather, I think are very important. You’ve got financial wellbeing and career and then also community, which links to social wellbeing and societal wellbeing. So what are the relationships even that you’re committed within the workplace? How can you contribute in a small way to a better world? Wellbeing doesn’t exist in isolation, it has to include the people around you and that could just be your teams within the workplace but it could also be the neighborhood in which you live and how can you, even linking to another notion of purpose, how can you improve the lives of the community around you? So I think those five, the physical, the mental, the spiritual in terms of purpose, career and financial, and social wellbeing, I think, are normally the areas. If we have the time and the luxury with clients, then we try and hit all of those five.

Alex: Do you find that organizations are more interested in some of those and less in others? Or what is really your experience with that?

Steven: I think it depends on the context of the organization, just in the same way that different companies have to fine tune their approach to something like innovation and what is the context for them so how would they try and unlock the creative power for an organization. I think depending on the sector and the reason for being for that organization, then they may look at different things as the relationships that are more important. Is there more of a risk, let’s say, and I’ll go on to that aspect of risk in a second regarding the physical side in health and safety or is it more mental health that they have to look at or those other areas, depending on the profile of the workforce. But even just very quickly on that risk thing, I think a lot of the approach to wellbeing within an organization has been about risk reduction and I think it has to go beyond that. It has to look, I think, in terms of value generation. And even the wellness side, I think, is about reducing risk, giving people a day off, looking at kind of sickness, absenteeism, whereas a lot of the issues are about really presentee-ism and people, particularly in the US, not taking their full allocation of vacation days in a year, always being there but not really firing on all cylinders. So what is the kind of business case? How can we unlock the potential wellbeing within an organization? And I think through conversations and understanding the particular context, then you would look at one area or another or more than one. 

Alex: That makes sense. One of the things that come to mind for me when I think about wellbeing is we strive to have these side performance cultures and you have to have that optimum balance to be able to push an organization and people in the organization to work as hard as you can but also do it in a way where everyone’s not going to be burning out. So, when you think about finding that optimum level of performance, because I know you focus a lot on sustainable performance, what are some of the areas you focus on to understand what’s optimum and to drive high level of performance that also becomes sustainable?

Steven: You’re right, a lot of my original work, it wasn’t even called wellbeing, it was called sustaining performance. It was over 10 years ago, quite a bit more actually, and so I didn’t feel that I had the permission to use the word “wellbeing” back then. It wasn’t taken seriously enough in executive education and client discussions. And so it was looking at, okay, using a lot of the tools of wellbeing, how can we improve performance but do it sustainably so you’re not going to burn out? And as we know, things like stress is valuable. There’s a business case behind stress. You can look at stress in a positive or negative sense. If you look at kind of the field of sports as an example, then then stress is useful to perform, and even in our own lives, stressful events, positive or negative, Alex, we remember them, it lodges in our brain so it improves memory, improves cognitive performance to a degree as well. But the key for stress management and also for sustainable performance is looking at the way of working, so it can’t just be in a very linear, always-on fashion, but you’re looking at working hard, absolutely, but then taking a step back and valuing recovery. So, even like sport, but really valuing and building in recovery into a busy working life, and that could be on a daily basis, even, weekly basis, quarterly, whatever. So we work with clients often and we look at even different people within the workforce, but we say, “Okay, you need to design in this recovery, it can’t just always be on like a machine, they’re not built like that. Burnout will happen eventually.” And even — I think that notion of working in rhythms or waves, that oscillation is part of who we are as human beings, and even not just sport but I often use this quote from Claude Debussy, the famous French composer, and he said music is the space between the notes. And often in business, we are just thinking about the notes and hitting the right notes but we’re not thinking about that space and that stepping back, maybe absorbing what we’ve learned, the post-project learning, even couple of hours after a hard couple of days, when the work has to get done and maybe you pull those longer days but then don’t keep going like that, come off the treadmill. And a final part on that, especially post-pandemic, is have flexibility. So, if there’s ways of working, you’re building in that recovery. Don’t be overly dogmatic about the nine to five or the nine to whatever, after five, because work has come in to the parts of our life and the times of our day that never used to exist because of technology but then we’re still very strict to not letting life into the previous kind of sacrosanct period of work. And I think we have to be flexible, find our own routine, especially hybrid working, working from home. And just a final anecdote on that, I remember talking to a senior director in a large organization a few years ago, and he said, “Look,” and he taught his team this, he said, “I go to the gym 10:30 a.m. on a Monday because that’s what suits my context and it doesn’t mean that I’m not working, I work hell of a long hours all week but that fits me,” and he was giving permission to the rest of his team, he would say, “Look, have that flexibility, whatever you need in your life in terms of the different elements of that in order for you to perform, do it when you feel that it’s best for you,” and that could involve whatever, watching the kids’ soccer game or whatever it is. We’re working 24/7 potentially so give yourself permission to live your life when you want to live it.

Alex: I think that’s one of the positive things that came out of the pandemic was to rethink the rigidity of our routines, kind of like the nine to five or nine to six or nine to seven or seven to seven, people have different schedules, but you were supposed to go to the office and you were supposed to be there most of the time and now there’s, I think, a little bit more flexibility from what I see in my organization and some of my friends’ organizations, and what you see kind of like when you work with clients. There seems to be a willingness to explore a little bit more of kind of what works for people and to unleash performance by thinking outside the nine-to-five box. It sounds like you agree with that.

Steven: Totally. It’s not an easy thing to pull off. 

Alex: Yeah.

Steven: I think we need the support of others. Absolutely. There has to be a culture there whereby you believe first of all that you have the flexibility, that you’re not just seeing that in organization and then you take the 11 a.m. gym slot and then people start to whisper about, “Hey, what’s going on here?” or, “Why isn’t he at his desk?” or even if you’re working from home, do we always need to be on video Zooms? Can we take it as a phone call and go a walk around the block or walk in nature, and there’s going to unleash how you feel, it’s going to unleash creativity and a lot of research supports that, so permission culture is important and then just finding your way. You’re maybe not gonna get that right first time, you have to kind of experiment a little bit too. 

Alex: Yeah, I think there’s a balance between kind of loosening up that rigidity and also finding some new standards within that new way, right? Because in some ways, some people do slack off. I think the majority of people — the people that I work with, if they ask me for something, I know that they’re going to perform and I know that if someone has something on their calendar that is non-work related in the middle of the day is because they’re getting all the work they need to do outside of that time that’s blocked off in their calendar. It makes me think of the importance of trust and also the importance of hiring. In startups you often hear hire slow, fire fast. If you come up with good ways to hire and bring people in the organization, then that allows you to have more trust in the people you have and allows you to be less rigid with some of your framework. What this is really making me think is about really about wellbeing as a systemic component of organizations so it relates to the hiring process, how you attract talent, what your brand is, what the people think about your company with what you’re putting out there, the type of people you attract. So you came up with, I think, something that’s very catchy, which is the chief wellbeing officer. So as we’re thinking about wellbeing systemically in an organization, what is the role of the chief wellbeing officer? Is it an actual role? Is it subcomponents of the work that different people with different roles in an organization have to play? Tell me a little bit more about what is a chief wellbeing officer and how does it play into the systemic nature of working organizations?

Steven: This became my brand, in many ways, my kind of personal brand, even though it’s a generic term as well, but I used it first of all in the second of my three wellbeing books, which was published 2018, and then my podcast also was the forerunner to that, that started in the autumn of 2017. 

Alex: It’s very catchy. 

Steven: Yeah. I mean, for me, it could be a role, Alex, but the way that even I wrote the book with my co-author, Rory Simpson, who is the chief learning officer at Telefonica here in Spain, was more as a call to action. I remember after publishing it and I got all these calls from journalists at Wall Street Journal and different newspapers and they were saying what does a chief wellbeing officer do and I thought, well, I gave it a shot in terms of if it was a role definition, but it was more about let’s elevate wellbeing as a more strategic concern because you’ve got this word, “wellbeing,” which at that time and still to a degree today is conceived as something very sore, but then you have these two very serious, probably two more serious business words on either end, “chief” and “officer,” so it’s more about, okay, get people to think about something in a different way. But, of course, some organizations do have a chief wellbeing officer but I think it is more about a kind of stay of working or a mindset within an organization, which is about all these things that we’re talking about, it’s about valuing wellbeing, not on the margins but as something central to how a business operates and generates value, and then all these other things as part of that systemic approach that you mentioned, in terms of hiring, attracting talent, engagement, keeping people within the organization. So that’s been the journey. That book, 2018, and so now, that’s like a monthly newsletter on LinkedIn and a lot of my discussions with clients and business development is based around that leaf motif, let’s say. It gets people to think. It starts conversation. And there’s been another element more recently. It’s also about trying to support other wellbeing practitioners, in a way, and that’s still very early, that branch of it, but I started to realize that there’s a lot of other coaches/wellbeing experts out there who are pushing the whole area forward and so I started to think can chief wellbeing officer be a kind of a lighthouse, perhaps, to build that community, so that’s the kind of two levels of audience. It is mostly about organizations and more, that’s the kind of core client for the business and for the brand, but I’m also thinking a bit more longer term, other folks who are like me, how can you move forward together, because I’m not going to do it myself. It has to take and you know that more than anyone, with the coaches around the world and the way that we all have to work together to make a difference. 

Alex: Since our audience is primarily coaches, when coaches think about wellbeing, what should they think about? And how can they learn about different facets of identifying certain areas that could be helpful for them and for their clients?

Steven: So there’s two areas, and I’m going to try and bring two of these into the session that I’m going to deliver for you guys in the summit this year, this summer. 

Alex: Yeah, our summit’s coming up. It’s so exciting.

Steven: Yeah. So, one is being a bit more attuned to the wellbeing of your coaching clients. I think that is absolutely necessary. And, look, I think many coaches will be in that space anyway. It’s maybe just that they don’t give it that word. I’m sure they’ll talk about home life and relationships and purpose and all these different things and maybe they just haven’t conceived of it previously as wellbeing, but with those five elements that we talked about a little bit earlier, then I think then at least a more strategic view of wellbeing is certainly there, but it’s being a bit more attuned to that, how important is that for your coaching clients. And I think also just kind of role modeling. Role modeling is hugely important. A lot of what we talk about with clients is role modeling of the senior leaders, but for you as a coach, what are the behaviors that you’re showing? And I think that is very important in terms of the whole change process, perhaps, that a coach might go through, and a lot of the signals that a client might pick up on on the coach, and if you’re offering advice in a certain area, you’re being authentic in some of the things that maybe you’re sharing in that coaching conversation. So I think it’s being attuned to the wellbeing needs and profile of the client and thinking about your own wellbeing as a coach. And then after that, in terms of which areas do you look at is whatever, I guess, is pertinent in the same way that an organization has a different context. Is there needs in that physical space? Is it about mental health and wellbeing? Is it related to purpose? Is it about career? A lot of the career coaching work out there, of course, links to the purpose side. And then also the relationships and society. But I think there’s just so much margin there to enrich the coaching relationship, and, by extension, affect real change, which is, I think, what many coaches want to do.

Alex: In my coaching work, I always tend to spend a little bit of time thinking about food and what people eat, what people drink, because so much of the time I’ve seen, for example, caffeine, I think we don’t as a society understand the role of caffeine really well and I’ve had people that are clients that I work with that you’re getting a certain feedback where maybe they’re a little bit impulsive or certain behaviors come up in meetings and then I think about, while I’m in a session and this person’s drinking a Diet Coke and it’s like 4 p.m., you start thinking about what’s the role of that caffeine in the system and how they react in a meeting. There’s a whole universe of information around performance and what we intake into our bodies. And I think when you go through coach training, we don’t really spend a lot of time thinking about that in most coach training so it is interesting to kind of bring different facets. That’s been very helpful for me. I’m lucky that I have always been very in tune with health and food and performance so I think it’s easier for me to bring that into the fold of a coaching conversation and that’s just a facet of wellbeing, the kind of like the physical wellbeing, but it makes me think about the opportunities that we have as coaches to think outside of the model and methodologies that we use with clients, and even if it’s tried and true and we have a lot of success with clients, it’s always interesting to think about what are some other facets that I may not be thinking about. So when I think about the topic of wellbeing, I think there’s a lot of different subsets of it that I am certain as we as coaches are not paying enough attention, both with our clients, whether we’re approaching individuals or teams, but also thinking about the organizational, kind of that systemic lens, and trying to understand what are some of the gaps in our approach perhaps that we’re not paying enough attention to that, from a wellbeing perspective, could be powerful. 

Steven: Yeah. I mean, I love those points. It’s such a rich source of just digging in and digging a bit deeper. And these are signals. These are signals that we can pay attention to and it shouldn’t be narrowly viewed in that case of just nutrition but there’s a reason for that and then you can find out the rationale for that. Is it a coping mechanism? It reminds me, actually, of a curtain that I often use in some of my presentation decks from the New Yorker several years ago and there’s two men in an office and one has a cup of coffee and he says to the other, “I try and keep my caffeine buzz going until the martini buzz kicks in.” That’s like how are we living our days, right? And even things like — and this was in my newsletter last week on nutrition, which was one of the elements of my sustaining executive performance model like 10 years ago, even glycemic index of foods, and sometimes a lot of decisions are made when blood sugar has been spiking or relationships are ruined when blood sugar crashes and so even things that you could just think, “Okay, well, it’s just food, it doesn’t affect business performance,” absolutely it affects a lot of things that we do in our daily working lives.

Alex: A hundred percent. Yeah, the glycemic index and decision making is probably a whole encyclopedia, we can read or write about that. But those aspects are often overlooked so I think it’s a good example of thinking a little bit outside the box. And since we’re living in this kind of post-pandemic time where we’ve explored a little bit of the boundaries of how can work be different, when you were talking about that earlier, I’ve had some big changes in terms of kind of how I think about work. I used to be, before Coaching.com was a fully remote company, the earlier iterations of it were like very much in person, come to the office kind of situation and I remember maybe not being as flexible as I am today. Also things change and companies evolve and the culture changes but now I enjoy in between calls, I have a reformer. Between calls, I can go and maybe do 30 minutes of Pilates and weightlifting and then come back to a call. And I’ve noticed how reenergized I am and how helpful it is for my routine. So, thinking about all those years of the rigidity of the schedule, it’s just, wow, it’s like, wow, I’m like, I work so much better and more now that I have this. Sometimes I go for a 3 p.m. workout at the gym and there’s not that many people using the machines and traffic is not that bad. And then you come back at five or whatever it is and then I can work until ten, whether — if I stay in front of my computer, maybe by six, I’m like, “Okay, this is enough for today.” So the rewiring that’s taking place in this post-pandemic age is very interesting. As we come into the last kind of bit of our conversation today, what are some of the points that you would want coaches to take away from being exposed to wellbeing?

Steven: I think it’s just being aware of their own journey. My own journey, as I talked about right at the very beginning, you look at that in different notions of time, but a lot of my work in recent years has been looking at those daily habits and a lot of these things that you’re talking about, that rewiring, and we often I don’t think value enough that day to day. We’re very outcome driven, we’re looking at the big goals in our year, and I often try and get folks just to focus on, okay, what’s your normal boring 24 hours? How do you wake up in the morning? Look at the sky before you look at your smartphone when you wake up. What do you do in the first 10 minutes? What do you do in the last 10 minutes? And so that habit and behavior change but on a very kind of discreet tiny level on a day-to-day basis is what I try and convince my clients to take a bit more seriously and it was also the focus of my last book, The Daily Reset, so it was thinking about, okay, what are these bite-sized knowledge or insights or questions, it’s mostly questions, because we all kind of know what we need to do but it’s thinking about for your life context at that time, so that’s a book that was written with a nudge for every day of the year and 12 different themes of wellbeing. It only takes two minutes a day to read but also I want people to write in it so it becomes a bit of a journal. So I think part of that journey of that day to day is just having that conversation with yourself and having your own journal and just recognizing that life goes by very fast and we’re often on autopilot. And especially for coaches, I think, they’re living in the heads of their clients a lot and sometimes maybe they need to get back into their own head before and after a session and it’s all about the development of the other person, of the executive, of their client. But I think just thinking about their own journey and taking space for themselves, I think that’s critical for a coach especially.

Alex: I agree. Well, thank you, Steven, for joining me today for this episode of Coaches on Zoom Drinking Coffee.

Steven: My pleasure, Alex. Loved the conversation, thank you.