Radical Health Rebel
Welcome to the Radical Health Rebel Podcast, where Leigh, a renowned Functional Medicine Practitioner, CHEK Practitioner, CHEK Faculty Instructor, Active Release Techniques® Therapist, Emotion Code Practitioner, author, and podcast host, takes you on a journey to achieve optimal health, wellness, and happiness. With his extensive training and years of clinical experience, Leigh provides a truly holistic approach to health that has proven effective even when other methods have failed.
Join us every week for insightful discussions and expert interviews focusing on chronic pain, gut health, and skin health. Leigh's diverse background and passion for holistic healing brings you valuable knowledge and practical tips from leading experts in the field. Whether you're struggling with persistent health issues or simply looking to enhance your well-being, the Radical Health Rebel Podcast is your go-to resource for achieving a vibrant and healthy life. Tune in and start your journey to radical health today!
Radical Health Rebel
154 - The Stress-Gut Connection: IBS, SIBO & More with Miriam Jacobson
In this episode of the Radical Health Rebel Podcast, I sit down with Functional Medicine Dietitian Miriam Jacobson to dive deep into one of the most overlooked root causes of chronic digestive issues: stress.
Miriam unpacks how chronic stress disrupts the gut-brain axis and how it can trigger or worsen conditions like IBS, SIBO, and other digestive dysfunctions. We explore the vital role of the vagus nerve, the impact of nervous system dysregulation on gut health, and practical steps you can take to calm your system, restore digestive balance, and finally experience relief.
Whether you're struggling with bloating, abdominal pain, unpredictable bowel habits, or simply want to better understand how your emotions affect your digestion, this episode is packed with insight, science, and strategies you won’t want to miss.
We discussed:
0:00
Stress and Gut Health Connection
6:03
Miriam's 9/11 Trauma and Healing Journey
23:57
Perfectionism and Its Health Consequences
38:46
Stress Impact on IBS and SIBO
50:37
Conscious Eating and Nervous System Regulation
1:05:15
Distinguishing Trauma from Everyday Stress
1:08:31
Closing Thoughts and Miriam's Future Projects
You can find Miriam @:
https://www.everybodybliss.com/
https://www.instagram.com/everybodybliss/
Don't forget to leave a Rating for the podcast!
You can find Leigh @:
Leigh's website - https://www.bodychek.co.uk/
Leigh's books - https://www.bodychek.co.uk/books/
Free Pain Guide - https://bit.ly/ChronicPainValuableTips
Substack - https://substack.com/@radicalhealthrebel
YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@radicalhealthrebelpodcast
Rumble Channel - https://rumble.com/user/RadicalHealthRebel
Leigh's courses:
StickAbility - https://stickabilitycourse.com/
Mastering Client Transformation (professional course) - https://www.functionaldiagnosticnutrition.com/mastering-client-transformation/
Eliminate Adult Acne Programme - https://eliminateadultacne.com/
Stress impacts our bodies on all levels and one of the first places that it will impact is your gut health. And you know, unchecked stress not only affects gut health but it will eventually affect your immunity and other chronic illnesses that people develop autoimmune conditions, cancer. That people develop autoimmune conditions, cancer. But when it comes to gut health, stress, our minds and our guts are so intimately connected.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Radical Health Rebel podcast. I'm your host, lee Brandom. This work started for me several decades ago when I started to see the impact I could make on people, helping them to identify the root cause of their health problems that no doctor could figure out, including serious back, knee, shoulder and neck injuries, acne and eczema issues, severe gut health problems, even helping couples get pregnant after several IVF treatments had failed. And it really moves me to be able to help people in this way, and that is why I do what I do and why we have this show.
Speaker 2:In this episode of the Radical Health Rebel podcast, I sit down with functional medicine dietician Miriam Jacobson to dive into one of the most overlooked root causes of chronic digestive issues stress. Miriam unpacks how chronic stress disrupts the gut-brain axis and how it can trigger or worsen conditions like IBS, sibo and other digestive dysfunctions. We explore the vital role of the vagus nerve, the impact of nervous system dysregulation on gut health and practical steps you can take to calm your system, restore digestive balance and finally experience relief. Whether you're struggling with bloating, abdominal pain, unpredictable bowel habits or simply want to better understand how your emotions affect your digestion, this episode is packed with insight, science and strategies you won't want to miss. Miriam Jacobson, welcome to the Radical Health Rebel podcast that's coming on the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me, liam, super excited for our conversation today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too Really looking forward to this. So, miriam, to kick things off, could you share perhaps your own personal story and, if it's okay with you, also include your experience of the events of 9-11.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. That's really where, you know, my healing journey, I'd say, started. That was like the big rupture moment was 9-11. I was 13 years old at the time and my father worked on the roof the 110th floor of One World Trade and he unfortunately passed away that day and that was a really major, obviously traumatic event that happened in my own life, my family and to the world at large. That really shaped the rest of my life to this day. And, you know, for a few years after 9-11, I was terrified to feel my feelings and to feel the enormity of that grief. In addition to, you know, my father passing away on that day. About three weeks later my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer and she ended up, you know, having to. She ended up staying in the hospital for a few weeks because she didn't have anyone to take care of her. So that kind of gives you a little bit of background of my own personal.
Speaker 1:You know, history with trauma took a major physical toll on my body because I wasn't able to, I didn't have the tools to feel the feelings of that experience and to ground myself through that, and so I couldn't sleep at night. I had migraines, I developed back pain I started, you know, like my mom desperately wanted me to go to a therapist and I refused, and so we started working with different body workers acupuncturists, chiropractors and I really didn't find relief until I started working with a therapist to work through that PTSD. But even you know, years after I worked on my mental health, I really worked to reverse a lot of the post-traumatic stress that was alive and big in my body. I was still experiencing physical issues and by the time I was in my 20s it had transformed from migraines and back pain to nausea and stomach aches and digestive issues and anxiety and joint pain. I remember my joint pain was so bad I couldn't sleep at night, and that's really when I began to discover the power of nutrition and how powerful the food that we eat and what we're actually putting in our bodies has on the way that we feel and show up in our lives.
Speaker 1:And so, as I, you know, have gone through all of these experiences of life and loss, and later on I lost my mother and I lived through my own breast cancer experience, just like a whole lot of really big life events that were incredibly dysregulating for me I began to understand the importance of not only working on your nutritional health and your mental health, but also your nervous system and your spiritual well-being, and that's really my philosophy that I've taken today is that we are so complex, and healing is so multilayered and so multidimensional that we can't just look at one thing. We have to start with one thing, but we can't just look at one thing because we are complex, Our lives are complex, Our histories are complex, and so we need to take a really personalized approach when it comes to healing. And so that's really how I became a functional medicine dietitian, how I became a breathwork facilitator and why I practice the way that I do now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what's really interesting as we speak. You know, I did an interview this morning so that would be last week's podcast with a colleague of mine, matt Sorensen, and we were discussing about, you know, how complex the body is and how it requires a holistic approach to healing. But actually, when you look at the body from a how it requires a holistic approach to healing, but actually when you look at the body from a position of complexity, as in, you understand the complexity, although no one completely understands the complexity, right, we probably never will completely understand the complexity. But when you understand it to a certain degree, the solutions are oftentimes relatively simple, right, whilst the body is quite complex. You know, just as one example and maybe we'll talk about this a bit as we go through, but you know, for me, what I've learned over the last 30 years of doing this work is that the further you move away from nature, the more problems you cause for the body. The closer you live in alignment with nature, the more your health tends to improve.
Speaker 2:And one example of that so I I moved out of london five and a half years ago and for about eight years or so, you know, as, as get older as happens with most people, my eyesight started to get slightly worse Not bad, but it went from 20-20 to a little bit blurry, looking at things far away. But now I live in the countryside, now I'm not seeing all those straight lines all the time in the concrete jungle. Now I'm seeing trees and birds and rivers. Interestingly, my eyesight's improved just by getting out the city, right. So yeah, I completely agree that we are very, very complex and it often requires approaches from different angles to to kind of get to the root cause and I don't like to use the word fix, but to resolve the resolve the issues.
Speaker 1:I love that you said that, because I think we are nature, you know we are like that is who we are and how we're made, and I think you know when we live in these really big cities I've lived in cities my whole life and and, honestly, living in Los Angeles is really radically different to growing up in New York, because here I have access to hiking trails outside of my front door, even though it's still like a deeply urban environment I have. I'm looking outside and I have olive trees and pepper trees and, you know, fig trees and it's so beautiful to feel so deeply connected to that. And they've done studies where they've researched people living in cities and people living closer to nature, and people in nature have higher levels of empathy and love and they have less anger and aggression.
Speaker 1:And I think that that is so important when it comes to our bodies, even like physiology, our stress levels, when we're in nature. Another body of research is about negative ions in nature, and when we're exposed to negative ions in soil, sand, air and running water, it actually positively impacts our brains. It helps increase serotonin levels, and so, while we are so complex, I love what you're saying, that these practices that are incredibly healing are actually coming back to those basics and it's not things that can be packaged or sold or marketed. It's like the sleep, it's getting outside and it's really eating good food and being around good people.
Speaker 2:I really think that's, at the absolute core, simplest things that we could be doing, but our modern world has made it really difficult for us to get there yeah, yeah, I mean one thing that I I talk about quite a lot is you know, if you, if you can find, you know, a native tribe, you know hunter-gatherer tribe living in nature, now you'll be hard pushed to find any disease, any symptoms.
Speaker 2:You know childbirth is, you know, relatively easy and simple and it really. You know, if you're, I don't know if you're familiar with the work of western a price, you know from about 100 years ago now, when he traveled around the world and you know he came across lots of native tribes and they were living in alignment with nature and he couldn't find any illness pretty much in those people. Their teeth were perfect, they didn't have a word for cancer, they didn't have heart disease, they certainly didn't have depression of their tribe. But now they lived in, you know, modern, modern society, let's call it. They had tooth decay, they had disease, you know they were, they were really in a bad way. So whether you look at the studies of western price or you find modern day hunter gatherers and there are still a few, not too many now, but there are a few then you can see that when you're living in alignment with nature, that that just creates health without without, you know, without effort, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And you know I can even feel that Personally. You know I don't even like I love that. There is research about epidemiological research and all of the science backing that. But also, you know, when I go camping and I go to sleep and the sun going down and I go to sleep when it's dark and then the sun's coming up and like my body wakes up, I'm more synced to that circadian rhythm and I feel the energy of that. I'm sure many people who are listening have a similar experience where they can actually feel that difference. When you get out of the electronics and the blue light and get removing yourself from that grind and really just like getting back to the earth's rhythm. It's so powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can relate to that when I would have been about 21, 22 years old. I was working for a big corporation at the time and they sent me on a leadership training course, which was one of the best weeks of my life. It was amazing. It was in the middle of the countryside in Wales. It's the kind of area where the special forces train, but everywhere you look it's just nature. It's just hills and green grass. It's stunning, but it's quite a harsh terrain as well. What was that show that Donald Trump used to do? What was that called? Oh, I think we call it.
Speaker 1:The Apprentice yeah.
Speaker 2:Each day we were doing similar kind of things to that. So each day, one person would lead, lead a group, and you'd be, there'd be two groups and you'd be kind of competing against each other. And, um, I think it was the last evening we were there they said, right, tomorrow you're going to have to come up with a product and you're going to have to do a presentation and you're going against each other and you've got a certain number of points that you start with and you can spend these points on marketing and all this kind of stuff. And they said, if you want to save points, we'll take you into the middle of the forest and you can sleep under a bivywack in the forest as a team, so each team. I think I was the leader of the team, of my team, and I said, okay, what do you think, team? And I was thinking I was staying in the hotel. And, uh, so I was like, what do you think, team? And they're all like, yeah, let's do it, let's, let's save points, let's, let's go out in the in the forest. And I was like, okay, well, that's what the team's decided, let's do it.
Speaker 2:The other team decided to stay in the hotel. So, anyway, they've taken us out into the middle of nowhere. They're like here's a bivy whack, here's a torch. They waited till we we'd set the bivy whack up and I can't remember how many of us was in the teams like six or eight people, I can't remember but we're literally all lying there on sleeping bags and we're all you, you know, shoulders to shoulder under this little bivywack and all you can hear.
Speaker 2:This was like in May time. Now, luckily it was one of the hottest days of the year. That year was in May, which is unusual for the UK, so we didn't really have too much of a problem with the cold. But you know, there was females and males in the group, you know, and it's pitch black, you can't see anything, and I think we're all of us are a little bit nervous.
Speaker 2:I don't think any of us have ever kind of slept that far out in the wild. It wasn't even a tent, it's just a piece of tarpaulin. And we all experience the same thing. Once we decide right, it's time to sleep. Literally all of us just straight off to sleep, and then, when the sun came up in the morning, we all woke up, but we all had like the best night's sleep ever. It was just amazing. And then the next day we got up and we had extra points with that presentation and my team won, but it was that it's a completely different feeling when you sleep, you know under the stars, so to speak, compared to sleeping under a roof, being in a house, I mean, you know, you've experienced that, right, it's, it's just completely different. Um, and you just think how healing would it be if we could do that every day yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:I think it's such a fun combination of, like the apprentice and, I think, survivor, except I don't think we got sleeping, sleeping survivor, um, but that sounds so special.
Speaker 1:And, and you know, I um I actually recently got a camping van because I was so inspired.
Speaker 1:I had spent some time in New Zealand this past fall, but also a few years ago I did the same thing, where I decided to rent a camper for a month and I took myself around New Zealand and this time I had actually met up with a friend that I made the first time I was doing that, and she was living in her van at the time and we were staying, you know, in her rooftop tent on the top of her truck, and we didn't even stay up past the sunset because the sun was setting at 8.30 and it was, you know, the sky wouldn't get dark till like 10, 1030. And by that time we were both passed out. And it was just doing that for a few weeks on end was so grounding and uplifting at the same time. I had so much energy and I was even thinking about this the other day. I was like, wow, I am really excited to go camping this weekend I just need to sleep outside and wake up outside and really like remind my body what it is to sink myself with the sun.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, you probably wouldn't want to do that. In the UK at this time of year it was below I think it was below zero last night.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, no, no, we're going, I'm going to the desert, I'm going to Joshua Tree this weekend, so it hopefully won't be that cold and again, I think that probably shows us as well not just how healing nature is, but how stressful modern day living is.
Speaker 1:You know, you're in a house, it's got all the electricity, you know you're in a house, it's got all the electricity, you've got your mobile phones, your Wi-Fi, your Bluetooth, possibly a smart meter, all that kind of stuff going on, and you know it's just not these devices and things that we're paying for and the jobs that we then need to support those systems and it's. I always think about how much more simple it would be if we just again returned to sleeping under the stars, and, even though you know that's not always realistic or tangible in our everyday lives, I think it would be a lot more simple yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:what we're really talking about here is, you know, modern living. It's stressful, right? We've got all kinds of stresses, whether it's financial stress I've mentioned, you know, electromagnetic fields whether it's relationship stress, whether it's your government stressing you yeah, a lot of that going on. You know, we're just, we're just bombarded by stress. But what, what, in your view? What? What effects does stress have on, say, for instance, our gut health? Amanda spent 19 years battling severe iBS, diarrhea and abdominal pain. Her life was ruled by public toilets and she avoided holidays for fear of flare-ups. Doctors offered no solutions, just endless Imodium. After working together, amanda discovered the root causes of her symptoms and in just three months, she was IBS3. She even booked her first holiday with her husband a dream come true. If you're struggling like Amanda, visit wwwbodycheckcouk to schedule your consultation.
Speaker 1:Let's find the root cause and get your life back yeah, yeah, our stress impacts our bodies on all levels, and one of the first places that it will impact is your gut health. Um, and you know, unchecked stress not only affects gut health, but it will eventually affect your immunity and other chronic illnesses that people develop autoimmune conditions, cancer. But when it comes to gut health stress, our minds and our guts are so intimately connected and the stress that we experience in our minds has a really potent physiological effect. So our brains and our guts are connected through the vagus nerve. It's the longest nerve in our body and it goes all the way from the base of our skull to our intestinal tract, and there's 500 million neurons that innervate our gut. And when we're stressed, it impacts blood flow to the gut. The physiological response of stress is that blood gets diverted towards our muscles so that we can fight or flee right. It's a survival response.
Speaker 1:But so many of us are living with chronic stress in our bodies that we have that physiological response and it begins to compromise these essential organs like our digestive tract, and so it reduces blood flow to our guts.
Speaker 1:It reduces the amount of digestive enzymes that we can produce, and so we're actually not digesting our food and we're not absorbing the nutrients from our food as well as we could be. And then it impacts the immune layer of our gut. We have a mucous membrane that really protects our system from undigested food, particles and pathogens, and so when we're stressed that layer becomes leakierier. I'm sure a lot of people who listen to your show know what leaky gut is and that can be caused by stress. It makes those tight junctions hyper permeable and really susceptible to food sensitivities and inflammation. And then to top that off is the health of our microbiome. We have three pounds of bacteria in our gut that regulate our immune system and our digestion and our brain health and our mood, and when we don't have enough blood flow, when the health of that microbiome is being compromised, it really compromises our vitality as well. So stress impacts our gut on so many different levels, which then in turn impacts our full body health as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as the pox says, all health and disease starts in the gut. There's a popular saying, wasn't it? Oh, health and disease starts in the gut.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, yeah, I think I mean that's so wise, beyond, beyond, like he knew before any of the research that's coming out has come out. But those are such wise words.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I've often wondered if health and disease actually starts in the mind, because obviously the mind affects the gut as well, but then the gut affects the mind, so it's like a chicken and egg almost, isn't it Like what comes first? Maybe it does.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, oh yeah, no, it's super bi-directional, it's our thoughts impact our gut health. Our gut health impacts our thoughts and our minds. And then, you know, there is the layers of how our mindset and how our emotions impact what we eat, and our food choices too, and so it does become this beautiful, like interwoven web. Um, that can feel really overwhelming, but it's also again when we can zoom out, we actually realize how simple it can be yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:What would you say are some of the signs that you know someone's got gut problems? What would be some of the signs that might suggest that it's being caused by stress or some kind of emotional issue?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's a really good question and I think a lot of people will know, like some of the obvious outward signs where you know, I think that some people have had a stressful phone call or they have a stressful meeting come up and they run straight to the bathroom. You know, and so that's a pretty obvious one that I think a lot of us can relate to. So, bowel irregularity, whether that's loose stool or whether you know, some people get constipated when they're highly stressed, and you know we'll just talk about we're talking about digestion, so we're going to have to talk about poop. But you know, some people may have undigested food particles in their stool and that's a sign that there's not enough digestive factors being made, there's not enough enzymes present to break down the food that they're eating. Some people may experience stomach pain or nausea. Reflux is a huge one.
Speaker 1:Again, anything that's affecting the motility of how food passes through your gut is going to be connected oftentimes to some sort of emotional state, especially if you're noticing, you know, like that you are more stressed or that you feel like you're being caught up in like a fast paced lifestyle and there really isn't time to take a break, like especially when I find that this is like a red flag when I hear people are like I just need to get through to the next thing, I just need to push through, and when I get to the next thing, then I can take a break and I'm like but then they're like, oh, but I'm not stressed, I'm like, hmm, that's interesting, you know.
Speaker 1:And so I think it's like getting really honest with yourself of when you're stressed and also, and so I think it's like getting really honest with yourself of when you're stressed and also, what are your coping mechanisms? How are you numbing, how are you trying to avoid those stressful situations? And really listening to the body and listening to those signs and symptoms, because our bodies are constantly speaking to us, and so really tuning in to, like, what is happening with the gut and what is happening with your emotional wellbeing and is there a connection between the two? And there could be, there could not be. But I think it's just asking yourself those questions and getting really curious is really important to creating change. We have to be aware if we want to see a change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that I think one of the issues people have is stress becomes so normalized that people don't realize their stress, because it's almost like that's their set point. They've forgotten what it's like to not be stressed.
Speaker 1:So to them their current state is their normal state, but actually that state is a state of of stress, of constant stress yeah, it's like when people on saturday they're like, oh, go to relax, and then all of a sudden you're in the quiet house maybe, maybe not, but hopefully you're in like a nice, quiet, relaxing place.
Speaker 1:But I often find those people are the people who are like oh, I can't sit down, and I can't like they sit down to read a book and their mind wanders or they can't take a nap, or they can't really find themselves like fully relaxing. And so I think that is a really important thing to begin to listen to is during those moments when you do have a breath, like how do you feel it and how are you showing up, and I think that's really an interesting place to observe. But I know I mean, I'm guilty of that too. I have been fast paced my whole life and it's really really hard for me to slow down. But when I do, I'm like, oh, wow, I was really going on autopilot. But I think conversations like this really normalize that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting you say that because you know, obviously, you, you, you grew up in New York, I grew up in London, probably two of the most fast paced cities in the world, yeah, but I think as I've got older, I've got much better at slowing down and being able to relax. I mean, I, I know, I, I can relate to you know, years previous I'd go on holiday and I'd go on holiday for a week and like the last day I'm there, I'm just starting to relax, right, you know, it's almost, oh god, I need I needed two weeks, but yesterday six. And you're like, oh, I'm, and I'd be aware of it as well like day one I'd be like, well, I'm still a bit kind of uptight. Yeah, I'm sure I'll relax, you know, shortly. And then you, what you know, day two, and you think, oh, I'm still kind of uptight, don't feel like I can really switch off and relax, um, but I'm much better at that now.
Speaker 2:But I think I suppose, like a lot of things, it comes comes with practice. Right, you've got to, you know, I mean, I, you know, I have a practice every day where I take time out to to do that exact thing, and I guess it's probably a bit easier now that I don't live in london anymore and I am looking out the window and I can see trees, and I can see the river, and I can see ducks and swans and geese, you know, and occasionally, occasionally, I'll see the sun as well, which has come out a couple of times in the last few weeks, which is which is good. But yeah, there's probably again, there's probably something in that that you know, we both grew up in big cities, you know eight. There's about eight million people in each of those cities now, and there's no. There's no wonder why. Perhaps we thought, you know, we have at some point found that challenging to switch off, because I mean, what? What do they say about new york, the city that never sleeps right?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, I mean, I always joke that I'm I'm like, a full product of my environment and it's been my life's work to undo that, undo that conditioning, because I'm a Jewish New Yorker, I have been born and raised like it is in my blood to be fast paced and, unfortunately for me, as I've gotten older, like it, that have forced me to sit on the sidelines, and so for me, that was actually my cancer diagnosis back in 2019. Like I was going, going, going, I was really beholden to this perfectionist mentality that wasn't serving me, but I couldn't even see it. And once I was diagnosed, I actually had to shut my business down. I had to take time off. I physically couldn't move and even like distract myself with exercise classes that I was doing and places that I was running and ways that I was making myself busy, and I literally just needed to sit. And that's when I realized I was like, wow, and I literally just needed to sit. And that's when I realized I was like, wow, I've never rested.
Speaker 2:At 31 years old.
Speaker 1:I was like I've never taken a deep breath my whole life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was a huge call that I needed to shift the way that I was showing that. Yeah, that's really interesting. You used an interesting word there that stuck into my head Again because I relate to it. Did you say the word? Was it perfectionist? Mm-hmm, I mean, there's some different theories around what causes perfectionism. Have you heard any of the theories that cause perfectionism?
Speaker 1:I've heard a few, but I'd love to learn from you too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm a recovering perfectionist.
Speaker 1:That's actually how.
Speaker 2:I refer to myself as well. Perfectionist is often someone who, when they were young, didn't get the validation that they feel they deserved. So they're always striving to receive external gratification or external validation from others, validation from others. And you know, I've certainly, as a as a young boy, I certainly looking back. That was definitely the case with me, particularly in sport. You know I was very into sport, um, pretty pretty good at most sports, but I never, I never got the praise, or certainly not from the person I probably needed the praise from right.
Speaker 2:And then, looking back, what that created, if you like, was a monster no, I'm just joking, not a monster, but what it created was someone that was very driven to succeed, right, because at a subconscious level, I was looking for that external validation. But then when you, when you look at perfectionism, quite often that can also lead to procrastination because there's a fear of failure, right. So I just wanted to bring that up because it's something that I've mentioned a few times on this podcast before. But I don't know, do you feel like that relates to you, or have you heard any other kind of theories behind perfectionism?
Speaker 1:might resonate for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:And also, at the same time, I think mine was almost a different side of the same coin, where I got so much validation for being a good student, and that's what became my role in my family.
Speaker 1:It was like I was the good student and that became a huge part of my identity. And you know, my my grandparents were immigrants and so my dad was first generation American and education was everything for him, and so that's really the ethos that I stood by was like I am going to make my family proud and I'm going to work hard, I'm going to do everything perfect so that that, because they worked so hard to give me this opportunity at like, a free, beautiful life, I'm going to do the most that I possibly can to be the most successful that I can. And you know, I think over the years for me, my perfectionism has then been driven through trauma of like, if I hold on to this you know identity of being perfect, then I can fool everyone to thinking that I'm actually okay when I'm really not okay, and so I think the role of perfectionism has shifted for me over the years. But now, even like sharing all of that, I'm like, oh, was it just a shield?
Speaker 1:this whole time, you know, is it again keeping keeping people from seeing who I really am and from really being vulnerable with myself and other people. So it's a really interesting thing to unpack, because I think perfectionism serves us in so, along with so many limiting beliefs, can serve us in so many different ways in our lives and when we're ready to release them, that's when I think there's so much power. But I think we need to become aware of what our tendencies are and which way we're being pulled and how that's impacting the health and well-being of our minds and our bodies and how we decide to then move forward with that information I think is so powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I was fortunate, I think in some way. I was working for a health club chain in the UK and I was in a situation where I had a job but they made the job redundant. But then they were changing the job and we still had to interview for the new job and at the time it was like my dream job. I absolutely loved it. It was, you know, so good and, uh, you know, our boss had a meeting with us all and he said look, you're all going to get the job, but we just have to go through the process of interviewing you. So we were like, oh, okay. And then they interviewed us and I didn't get the role, even though I'd been the top performer in the team. I was like what would it mean if I didn't get the job? And, obviously, being my dream job, I was devastated and the HR director called me and she she said do you want to come in and chat to me about it? She said I've got some feedback for you. So I said, yeah, yeah, I'd appreciate that.
Speaker 2:So I went and met with her and she spent quite a long time with me and she actually taught me a really important lesson and she said it was her that pointed out. She said you're a perfectionist. She said I can. I can see that in you. And she said the problem is it's holding you back. She said you need to kind of loosen up a little bit and not be so concerned about making mistakes. She said because I can see your potential, but because you're so frightened of making a mistake, that potential is being held back. You just need to let it go. And that was a really important learning process for me and you know, when you look through life you think where do I learn? The most was from failure. Normally right, so I failed to get that job, but I learned a really important lesson in the process. So we've gone off, we've gone off track just a little bit, although it all relates right because, like perfectionism, learning, beliefs, stress, trauma, it's all connected but I just I just want to roll back a little bit.
Speaker 2:so obviously you had your health issues and there were multiple issues and they kind of changed over time as well. Was it your health issues that was your motivation to get into working in the health arena? Did you know that 92% of people fail to follow through on their New Year's resolutions? That's right. Year after year, most of us start strong and then lose momentum by February. Sound familiar, but what if this year could be different? What if you finally had the tools to make your goals stick? Introducing Stickability, a simple, effective and affordable program designed to help you overcome the cycle of failed resolutions. In just a short time, you'll learn how to create lasting habits without wasting hours or breaking the bank. This isn't just another plan. It's the solution to finally sticking to your healthy lifestyle goals. Don't let this year be like the last. Head over to stickabilitycoursecom now to enroll.
Speaker 1:It's affordable, easy to follow and packed with tools to make 2025 the year that you have the ability to make it stick my interest in functional medicine and in nutrition Because I was like, if I feel the power of nutrition in my own body, I want to learn how to harness that power and apply it to other people, because I knew that we were all unique and I knew that we all have different needs, and so understanding the nuances and complexities of the human body and nutrition and metabolism was so fascinating to me, and so that's really what caught me on the path to becoming a functional medicine dietitian.
Speaker 1:Before that, you know, losing my father and dealing with all this trauma, really I always knew that I wanted to be in helping fields and I always, like prayed that I could make meaning out of that loss, and so I'd say, a meld of those pieces is really what set me on the path to becoming the functional medicine dietitian that I am today, but also has really encouraged me to weave in somatic practices like breathwork and thematic healing practices into the work that I do and really understanding that we're not just cells and organs that are floating in a vacuum, that we're human beings that were really complex lives, really complex lived experiences and relationships with one another, and that's really the reason that I do what I do today.
Speaker 2:So what stage were you at when you started your kind of education? If like, were you completely healed or were you still on that journey at the time?
Speaker 1:Oh no, I was very. I mean, I don't like saying the word broken, but like. I was really at the beginnings of my healing journey, I think you know in undergrad, is when I started studying nutrition. I thought I wanted to be a social worker. At the time I was like.
Speaker 1:I just want to help people heal and I didn't really know what being a social worker was, except that they help. And as part of that degree, I needed to do science classes and so I signed up for a nutrition class and that's really when I discovered nutrition was back in 2007, 2000. Yeah, back in 2006, 2007. And that's when I was like, wow, this stuff is really fascinating.
Speaker 1:And but like I have been on this journey and I don't have all the answers, even as a registered dietitian and later on as a functional medicine dietitian, I was a 31-year-old functional medicine dietitian and I was diagnosed with breast cancer, you know.
Speaker 1:So I definitely didn't have all the answers and that was the most humbling experience that I could have had, because when I got my diagnosis, the first thing that I thought was like, oh my gosh, I failed. I spent my whole life working on my health and my well-being and I failed. And realizing later on that that wasn't a failure, right, and that was a huge learning opportunity for me. But, yeah, so I'd say that healing is so not linear and it is so messy and there is no rhyme and reason. I've just learned to show up for myself through the process and be like okay, I don't know, I really don't. I know a lot, but I don't know all the answers. And so what do I need right now and how do I need to shift my approach to meet myself and then meet also the people that I'm serving? And how do I need to shift my approach to meet myself and then?
Speaker 2:meet also the people that I'm serving. Yeah, I can kind of relate to that in one way. So I started helping people with lumbar spine pathology so lower back pain in 2001. And in 2013, I ruptured two discs in my lumbar spine the very thing that I was helping people recover from. The irony, exactly Because the things that you do to recover are the things you do to prevent it as well and I don't know if you felt this, but it was almost like you know, I felt like a bit of a fraud, right, because why, why this happened? How's this happened to me, when I know how to prevent it from happening? Right, you know, there's the embarrassment, there's, you know, there's all those other kind of feelings. I don't know if you felt something similar to that oh yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like why, first of all, it's like why, like why? Why is this happening to me? Um, and, and you know, I I realized why I had developed cancer. So I was diagnosed with cancer as an environmental condition from living actually down by nine, 11. And so that's a really big part of my story was my but that's why my mother passed away and that's why I got sick. Was we, were, we had heavy metal poisoning, and so for me, that was just another another like layer of health to uncover was this environmental piece.
Speaker 1:And so, especially when it comes to cancer, it is so complex and it we don't. There's not necessarily one riot cause between it. You know, there's genetic factors, there's nutritional factors, there's our mental stress and the trauma and the way our body holds that, and then there's our mental stress and the trauma and the way our body holds that, and then there's environmental pieces. And so I think you know again, we know so much about the body, um, but I no longer view that as a failure. It's just, I'm a human being and I'm just doing the best that I can you know, and I think that's what we all are doing really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my experience, I would say, was probably my best learning experience of disc herniations, even though I'd had unbelievably good training and I'd helped so many people overcome lower back conditions that they'd been to see many other therapists and consultants and surgeons and they weren't able to help them. And I felt, going through the process, I learned more than I did going through my training. You know, having to live, having to live the experience, you learn so much more and now, when I work with people going through the same thing, I'm able to help them even better, now that I've been through that experience myself.
Speaker 2:Just silly little things, like how on earth do you put socks on when you've got that condition, because you can't flex the spine. So I had to find ways of contorting my body to be able to get underwear on, socks, shoes, whatever it might be, because you can't learn that kind of stuff from a textbook. It might be in a textbook but you can't really learn. It's like you know. You know, would you? Would you get in an airplane that's being flown by someone that's learned to fly only from a textbook?
Speaker 1:yeah, well there's. It's so true because there's an embodiment piece of it. When we realize exactly what you're saying like you moved through that experience, you can relate on such a deeper level of what those limitations are, what your needs are and what those, what that pain actually feels like, so that as someone who's then guiding other people through that process, you're not bypassing their pain. You can really relate on a deep level and you can also challenge them too yeah, yeah, are you familiar with donna summer?
Speaker 2:yes, but please share more yeah, because I mean she was, she was like the, the disco queen of the 1970s, and because she lived in new york and she, she got cancer and she said it from the debris from 9-11. And then, you know, she did sadly pass away. So it sounds like there was a lot of people.
Speaker 1:I actually didn't know that. Thank you for sharing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it sounds like you know there was a lot of people in a similar situation to you and your mom. Obviously there's Donna Summer as well. To you and your mom. Obviously there's donna summer as well. Um, yeah, I guess there's countless people, wasn't just the, you know, the few thousand that very sadly died on the day, but it affected a lot more people after that as well yeah, there's ongoing research actually available that people can look up, and you know the world trade center health program.
Speaker 1:It's not just cancer. There is a lot of, you know, lung issues. There's some autoimmune conditions that are very rare, like scleroderma. That's being popped, that's popping up, and you know first responders and presidents. There's GERD, you know there's emphysema right. So like there's so many different ways that the asbestos and the mercury and the PCBs and the toxins affect our bodies and it really manifests in different ways. Unfortunately a friend of mine, her dad just passed away from- this issue. So yeah, it's very widely researched and, unfortunately, affected many, many people and is still affecting people to this day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then that's obviously the environmental's. Obviously you know the environmental toxins, but then there was also the trauma to go with that as well. Right? Attention, all Radical Health Rebels. Are you ready to uncover the truth? The authorities don't want you to know. We've just launched our Radical Health Rebel channel on Rumble. Here's the deal we're bringing you the first half of our subscriber-only episodes for free. That's right. Free access to the hard-hitting, eye-opening conversations that dig into the topics mainstream platforms won't touch, whether it's cutting-edge health insights, exposing hidden agendas or sharing tools to thrive in challenging times. This is your chance to stay informed without subscribing to the podcast. Tune in on Rumble to keep track of what's really going on in the world and join a growing community of truth seekers. Don't miss out. Search Radical Health Rebel on Rumble and start watching today, because knowledge is power and it's time to take yours back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly yeah. The amount that stress really floods the nervous system. Like I know that I was in survival mode for years. I wouldn't talk about. I didn't talk about my feelings for five years after all that happened. So I really shoved everything down. And when we have elevated cortisol levels, it actually suppresses our body's ability to fight tumors and to fight infections, and so that's really where again, that mind-body connection there is a direct link yeah, something that you've mentioned so far somatic healing.
Speaker 2:Have you done the actual somatic healing training?
Speaker 1:I've only done the first level because I wanted to do all of the se institute in boulder. I wanted to do all of them, but it's like a four-year program, I think, and I was so bummed that the credits don't work for my nutrition degree. So I have two different degrees or certifications that I need to keep up with right now, and so I just couldn't burden myself with another, even though it is something that's absolutely fascinating to me.
Speaker 1:But I was able and I have the privilege to do a four-day training with them and it was absolutely incredible and life-changing. And um, I've also done breathwork facilitator trainings and that's really changed how I relate to my body and what I'm able to provide for other people as well in terms of healing in a somatic way yeah, one of my friends, liz Liz Wong.
Speaker 2:She's a somatic healer and done an episode with her. Actually, I'm trying to remember that guy's name. I've read his book on somatic Peter Levine. Yeah, that's it, peter Levine, that's it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it sounds amazing, somatic healing yeah, yeah, anyone who is like searching for a therapist, I highly recommend looking for a therapist who also provides somatic healing experiencing. It is one of the most powerful tools because it helps us bypass the stories in our minds and really works with the nervous system, and so we often, as humans, want to rationalize things and want to like overthink things. But somatic experiencing why it's so powerful is it gets us out of our minds and into our bodies and really helps us release stress from a visceral point of view, which can expedite healing in such a powerful way, much faster than certain types of talk therapy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so we're still on the same subject, so to speak. So can you explain the connection between chronic stress, nervous system dysregulation and development of gut disorders like IBS and SIBO?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so IBS is irritable bowel syndrome. It is an umbrella diagnosis really, for when doctors don't know exactly what's wrong with your gut. They're like, okay, you don't have inflammatory bowel disease, you don't have Crohn's or ulcerative colitis, but there's some sort of bowel abnormality that's resolved when you go to the bathroom, so let's call it IBS. And so all of those symptoms that I described earlier, like the constipation, the diarrhea, the abdominal pain maybe there's some reflux right, like all of those are part almost of that. There's some reflux right, like all of those are part almost of that. And besides, reflux are part of that IBS diagnosis. And so, again, when we have stress, it diverts blood flow and it really can compromise the health of our gut, and so that's really how issues like IBS come about.
Speaker 1:Sibo for people who don't know what that stands for, it's small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, s-i-b-o.
Speaker 1:And SIBO happens when bacteria are in the small intestine. So they're not supposed to be in the small intestine, they're supposed to be in our large intestine, and so when they're in the small intestine the bacteria can actually ferment the foods that we eat and cause a lot of abdominal distension and pain and bloating and reflux and digestive issues. And then there's a lot of diagnoses beyond the gut, like arthritis and depression and brain fog and all those issues that can be related to SIBO as well, and so SIBO happens when bacteria overgrow again in the small intestine, when we don't have enough digestive enzymes, we don't have enough stomach acid to kill those bacteria to digest our food properly, and the bacteria that are there are then going to feed off of the undigested food and overgrow and create a lot of bloating, distension and bowel issues. And so you know, stress will impact our entire gut health and really predispose us to issues like IBS, sibo and even inflammatory bowel disease and increase inflammation in our gut as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the other thing as well when you're stressed. It also slows down the motility as well. So again, the stuff that should be moving through the small intestine is there for a longer period of time. It gives the bacteria more time to feast on those foods as well. So that can be part of the problem as well, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly the migrating motor complex, the MMC. It's like the cleaning lady for your gut and it's activated after a few hours of not eating and that is also absolutely slowed down by stress. So exactly what you're saying the bacteria have more time to party with your food. Unfortunately, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, moving on from that, are there certain foods that people should avoid or, let me put it another way, are there certain foods that we should consider avoiding or including for people dealing with both trauma and digestive?
Speaker 1:issues. Question is you know how are you using food? You know, especially when you're stressed or going through a really traumatic period are you? Do you tend to overeat or do you tend to undereat? So really building that awareness of how you're channeling emotions and how that is affecting your appetite and your food intake? So if you're overeating, that's a call to really look at again. How are you supporting your nervous system? And so sometimes it's less about the food itself and more about the emotions and regulating yourself and what's underneath them.
Speaker 1:When it comes to people with digestive issues, there's a lot of different digestive triggers that we as human beings can have, and every single person is so unique, and so some people.
Speaker 1:Some foods are more reactive for certain people than others, so for some people, gluten is really inflammatory.
Speaker 1:I personally love the FODMAP diet for helping people identify what is causing their digestion to be out of whack, especially if someone's you know been dealing with IBS for years, you know they may have cleaned up their diet a little bit, but they're still experiencing problems.
Speaker 1:Fodmap diet is an acronym and it basically describes foods that are high in fermentable carbohydrates, and so it's going to be harder for us to digest them and the bacteria in our gut too. They cause distension and bloating. In our gut, too, they cause distension and bloating. And so, instead of a diet that people need to follow forever, it's really used as an elimination diet to help people identify, like, what foods are sensitive to. So it's not meant to be forever, because some people can be sensitive to one FODMAP and not another, and they are generally like healthy for us, so we don't want to eliminate them, but I think that can be really a helpful discovery tool for a lot of people. But I think the thing that people get wrong about the FODMAP diet is ending up following it forever, and that can actually be really detrimental for their gut.
Speaker 1:And so that is something that's important to note. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one thing you mentioned about being aware of how you eat when you're stressed. You know, being aware of how you eat when you're stressed, one of the things that I guess I try and help my clients to do is to eat as consciously as possible. And what I mean by that is, you know, eat at the same times of day as much as you possibly can. So let's say no, lunch is 12 o'clock, evening meal is 6 pm, let's just say as an example. And then when you're eating your food, regardless of how stressed you might be, obviously try and eat in a stress-free environment as possible. So watching the news and people getting blown up on TV is not the best thing to do when you're eating your food. But also, you know, make sure you're hydrated before you eat, make sure you chew each mouthful until it's liquidized before you swallow, always eat and till the point where you feel full but not stuffed. So it's just being very conscious when you're eating. Because I think if you're very conscious when you're eating, you're far less likely to allow stress to cause a difference, ie over or under eating.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I know some people they might say, oh if, if I'm stressed, I just don't even feel like eating. Yeah, I get that, um, and obviously I'm not suggesting people stuff food in their mouth if they don't feel like they should eat it, but just being as conscious as possible with your meals. And also, I always take people through a process of identifying the macronutrient ratio, so the amounts of fats, proteins and carbohydrates that suits their body. Now, obviously, again, with females it's more complex because there's a menstrual cycle involved as well and that that ratio changes. But the more aware you are of those things and the more conscious you eat, the less of an effect stress might have on the way that you digest, absorb and assimilate nutrients into the body.
Speaker 1:Food is so important because when we are truly present and even just grateful for the food that's in front of us and are eating slow enough where we can taste the flavors and experience the textures of our food, it really changes that experience, not only from that emotional point of view but also, like you're saying, from a digestive point of view. And oftentimes, if people are like I'm so stressed and I can't even think about eating, I'm like okay, what about having a cup of soup.
Speaker 1:That's pretty nourishing it's pretty pre-digested. Or having a smoothie if it's a hot day outside. You know, there are ways that we can also support our digestion. Listen to our emotions as well and try and support ourselves the best that we can with what we have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I guess I might have just mentioned a few there, but are there any other practices that can help calm the nervous system down and improve digestion?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think breathing is one of the most powerful tools that we have to self-regulate. And when it comes to using our breath to self-regulate, breathing in and out of your nose is really calming for your body. And then elongating your exhales to be longer than your inhales and what that does is it actually activates that rest and digest nervous system, your parasympathetic nervous system, to get into a place of digestion nervous system to get into a place of digestion. So again, when we're stressed, blood is going to flow to our muscles to get us all fight and flighty, but when we're in that state of rest and digest, blood can then flow back to our internal organs, and so the breath is a really powerful tool for doing that.
Speaker 1:Co-regulation is another piece.
Speaker 1:So one of the other powerful ways to regulate our nervous system is in connection with others.
Speaker 1:I know that when I'm eating a meal in connection with others I don't know if I've ever seen a study done on this, but I'd be so curious but when I'm eating in connection with others and I'm really, truly like present with my people and I'm sitting down and eating, I feel very different after a meal than if I'm eating alone or like I'm like eating rushed over the kitchen sink, I feel more satiated, I feel like my digestion is better and I in general just feel overall uplifted.
Speaker 1:And so this might be through good conversation, but also physical touch, like if you have a partner, you live with your partner, you can hug your partner and that actually floods the body with oxytocin and really gets us out of that fight or flighty state, of that like fight or flighty state. And then there's other tools, but I think those are some really powerful ones where we can harness the power of co-regulation, we can harness the power of self-regulation. Other things are going to be like getting in nature, being outside, you know, like we discussed, that's really good for your nervous system and then having creative practice. But in terms of, like, specific meal time, we can all take a few deep breaths before we take a few bites, you know, and even in those breaths maybe you express some gratitude.
Speaker 1:Um, and when you have the opportunity, eating with others is also really beautiful yeah, I guess the other thing, if you, if you don't live with a partner, maybe you've got a cat or a dog, because that will do the same thing, right yeah, yeah, you can hug your cat, your dog, I think um, I'm not sure what those studies say with cats and dogs, but I know if you hug your partner, I think it's for like 10 seconds that's what's shown to flood the body with oxytocin or like a nice, like sexy, like juicy kiss, I think, is the other option. Or your dog or a pet, I think, is such a beautiful thing. I'm always um, I'm always like holding and hugging and kissing my dog yeah, yeah, probably, probably.
Speaker 2:Uh, kiss your dog in a slightly different way that I would imagine oh yeah, I mean some people, I don't know.
Speaker 1:You do you guess, but I'll just kiss the top of her head.
Speaker 2:So would you say there's a difference between trauma and stress? And if there is a difference, what is that difference?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So stress I see it like the stressors of our everyday lives. Stress I see as like the stressors of our everyday lives. You know, we have a stressful email, we have a stressful conversation. Trauma I see as like as a physiological state of being. When we go through something really traumatic, it's almost like it's happening too much and too fast and too overwhelming for our bodies to process in real time, and so these memories actually get stored in a different way than other memories in our bodies and when those memories are activated, it's not that we're even like remembering that we had a stressful experience, it's that our bodies are then reliving that trauma. So, for example, for me I know that I again I mentioned it took me five years to go to therapy after my dad died and when.
Speaker 1:And the reason was because when I got to the University of Wisconsin, I went a thousand miles from home. I tried to go as far as I possibly could to just escape the East Coast and get away from everything. And when I did, people were like, oh, you're from New York. And I was like, yes, because I'm so cool, you're so impressed. And it wasn't. They were like, oh, where were you on 9-11? And they would ask me. And then, all of a sudden, I was back in that experience. It wasn't that I was remembering that experience, that I was actually reliving it, and I had panic attacks and the anxiety and the feelings of loneliness and overwhelm, and so my body was actually experiencing it over again, rather than just being reminded of it. And so I think that's, you know, the biggest difference between just having a stressful experience and then trauma, which is this like overloading of our nervous systems, where we really have to work to reintegrate those memories into a different way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how old were you when 9-11 happened?
Speaker 1:I was 13 years old when 9-11 happened, and I was 18 when I finally saw help from a trauma specialist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean you were pretty young, but I can imagine it would have been more of an issue in adult life had it have happened before you were seven, for instance. Adult life had it have happened before you were seven, for instance, because you have that, you know, delta and theta brainwave state, where your environment just gets downloaded onto you and I could just imagine the, the fear and that and the trauma of that would be, let's just say, more of a challenge to deal with if it had happened when you were younger rather than at 13.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think it's just really interesting that it's not just like a one and done healing experience, you know, just because, like I went to therapy once, like I used to think that's how it worked, I'm like, oh, I did therapy for that. I checked it off my list and it's like, no, that's cute. You know, these, these grief wounds get activated throughout our lives, you know, and it's a lifelong journey, unpacking the trauma and unpacking the grief and how it has really seeped into so many different avenues and aspects of life. And so just sharing that in case anyone's like, wait am I done with this healing yet?
Speaker 1:Like no, oh, that's cute it. It's like we're never actually done with it. It's it's a lifelong process.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, interesting. So is there anything else in particular you wanted to share with the audience before before we wrap up?
Speaker 1:I just really enjoyed our conversation today, so thank you so much for having me on and for being willing to like dive into the science and the vulnerability and just it's all all aspects of it.
Speaker 2:So I really appreciate that and enjoyed it yeah, it's been great having you on, and what? What's next for you, miriam?
Speaker 1:so I am actually so excited. I just booked my tedx talk, so I will be giving a tedx talk this september in northern cal, northern California. I've also been doing lots of corporate wellness programming and so that's also been really exciting and I might be I might be launching a podcast soon, so we will see but lots of different things on on the horizon which are really exciting.
Speaker 2:What's your TEDx talk on?
Speaker 1:It's called the power of functional medicine for healing trauma. So it is very aligned with our conversation today and people can expect to hear a little bit more about my story and how I've been able to harness that power of functional medicine.
Speaker 2:Awesome, that sounds great, and where can? Where can people find you online?
Speaker 1:So on Instagram, instagram, I'm at everybody bliss and my website is everybodyblisscom, and those are just two great ways to get in touch awesome, awesome, miriam, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I've really really enjoyed chatting with you today. It's been uh, it's been educational, but it's been really good fun as well agreed. Thank you so much so that's all from miriam and me for this week, but don't forget to join me same time, same place next week on the Radical Health Rebel podcast. Thanks for tuning in, remember to give the show a rating and a review, and I'll see you next time.
