UX for AI

EP. 85 - Design Systems in the Age of AI with Felix Lebedinzew

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In this thought-provoking episode of UX for AI, we dive deep into the transforming landscape of design with Felix Lebedinzew, a seasoned product designer with extensive experience in fintech and insurtech. Felix brings valuable insights from his work at leading companies like Revolut and GetSafe, offering a unique perspective on how AI is reshaping the design profession.

The conversation explores the fundamental shift happening in the design industry as AI tools become more sophisticated and accessible. Felix articulates how traditional roles are being redefined, with designers evolving from pixel-pushers to system architects. He introduces the concept of the "generalist builder" – individuals who can leverage various AI tools to accomplish tasks that previously required specialized teams.

Felix and the host discuss how the democratization of design tools is enabling people with little formal training to create sophisticated digital products. They highlight that while AI can handle much of the execution work, human designers still bring crucial value through their taste, judgment, and ability to create unique brand identities that resonate with users.

The conversation also touches on the rise of "always-on experiences" – AI-powered systems that continuously work in the background, requiring designers to rethink how they communicate ongoing processes to users. Felix shares his perspective on how designers need to become more strategic, focusing on creating systems rather than individual interfaces.

A particularly insightful moment comes when they discuss the concept of "lazy designers" – not in a negative sense, but as problem-solvers who create efficient systems that eliminate repetitive work. This approach allows designers to focus on higher-impact activities and expand their influence across organizations.

The episode offers practical wisdom for designers navigating this shifting landscape, emphasizing the importance of curiosity, continuous learning, and a willingness to explore beyond traditional design boundaries. Felix encourages designers to embrace their unique position as connectors between different stakeholders and to take initiative in identifying and solving problems.

Throughout the conversation, both speakers maintain an optimistic outlook, viewing AI not as a threat but as an opportunity for designers to elevate their craft and impact. They acknowledge the challenges but emphasize that designers who adapt and focus on creating value through systems thinking will thrive in this new era.

This episode provides valuable insights for designers at all career stages, product managers, and anyone interested in understanding how AI is transforming creative professions. Felix's practical experience and forward-thinking approach offer both inspiration and actionable strategies for navigating the evolving design landscape in the age of AI.

You can find Felix at: https://www.madebyfelix.com/

Interested in joining the podcast? DM Behrad on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/behradmirafshar/

This podcast is made by Bonanza Studios, Germany’s Premier Digital Design Studio:
https://www.bonanza-studios.com/

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:13:20
Unknown
Welcome to UX for AI, where today we're joined by Felix exploring the evolving role of designers in an AI driven world. Let's dive in.

00:00:13:22 - 00:00:43:06
Unknown
So, Philips AI, up to six, 4 a.m. today. Oh, my God, I could not sleep. I would, I got up. My mind was racing AI. And then I think AI is becoming our obsession and nightmare at the same time. Oh, my God, I can't imagine. I can imagine. That's, It's so true. We had things that happened so fast right now.

00:00:43:08 - 00:01:02:17
Unknown
I don't know what what what what had what did you had in mind? This morning? What was going on? I think I'm just questioning everything. Right? And, you know, it's not a negative process. Don't get me wrong. My mind spaces is positive. But, you know, I got a question. Everything. You know, I've been doing this for five years now, right?

00:01:02:19 - 00:01:28:12
Unknown
You know, I, I made the post that it was I made a couple of controversial posts from the past week. What was it? One was, oh, you should quit your job or something like this. And then it created a lot of controversies. And, and one of the guys said that there are, you comments, your comment is a bit insensitive because everyone's looking for work and stuff.

00:01:28:12 - 00:01:49:14
Unknown
And, and then you asking people quit your job while everyone is looking for a job is a bit insensitive. You know, I totally get it. It's. I know where it's coming from. But also context matters, too, is that I run an agency. I have to worry for another ten people that work with as well as my family.

00:01:49:17 - 00:02:17:01
Unknown
Right. So, it's and same to you as well. You run a, you know, you're part of a very growing startup, arguably one of the fastest growing in initial tech, right, in Berlin in Germany. I don't know about the numbers, but Get Safe is one of those examples. It's been growing so fast. Yeah, that's true. I mean, speaking about that look at the landscape got so I'm coming from the background of fintech.

00:02:17:01 - 00:02:51:23
Unknown
I've been doing working in fintech for like ten years, and there had been so much things going on in terms of digitalization of processes and stuff and companies doing very cool initiatives, etc., etc. and with insurance, it's the complete opposite. I think the industry, it's the very old industry and we're like ten years behind fintech in terms of digitalization does get save having itself positioned as, you know, one of the core players in that area still on the market today.

00:02:52:00 - 00:03:24:09
Unknown
In Germany or the also leaped towards towards other countries in Europe. It's it's a clear sign that with the, the sorry, the that actually the, the, the that the users they, they really need it. You know, now what I want to say, it's like, it's this high demand, for, for, for creating better processes in the it doesn't the industry actually doesn't really matter that much as well.

00:03:24:11 - 00:03:58:24
Unknown
But I'm more concerned I'm not necessarily concert in that sense, but I'm really looking at the, the, the design perspective of. That's what I mean. You're speaking about, running an agency and, taking responsibility. What was your typical business flow like? You were getting clients working on projects, delivering every piece? I don't know, maybe product designs, UX designs, UI designs, even though, that was the reality for all of us the past ten, 15, 20 years.

00:03:59:01 - 00:04:23:06
Unknown
Right. And what happened in the last two years? What what was going on? Yeah, that's that's where the interesting stuff happened. How do you feel about what is your how how have you experienced this moment when it was coming up? Two years ago and people were starting to look at it? So that's why I want to understand better why you came to the conclusion of your latest post.

00:04:23:11 - 00:05:07:08
Unknown
Yeah. Was in the sense of like, quit your job now, and look into that field. It clearly shows that while you're designing the UI, you're really asking good conversation. Can can manage a conversation with forward. I think I think you mentioned something really important in between is that for years we've been doing the same thing as designers, as product designers, UX designers, product release, whatever the case, now all of a sudden, since two years, everything we have been doing, everything that define our role, what we can deliver as part of a service or role is up for grabs.

00:05:07:14 - 00:05:57:24
Unknown
Challenged questions, revamped, obsolete, made redundant. And I was having a conversation last night is that if designers are complaining, what should copywriters do? Because that job is done. Let's go. Yeah, I mean the whole yeah, the traditional roles from product are changing. Now we just had a, a get together also within our company and with discussing, the, the structure of what is the typical, look, I mean, look at get say for look at any other fintech or product focused company like we have, different we have two different functions, the different expertise in place to build a product which traditionally they are like we have engineering, we have data, you have

00:05:57:24 - 00:06:26:13
Unknown
product managers, you have designers. All of those coming together to enable being able to create something unique and coherent and nice experience solving an actual problem or aiming to solve an actual problem for the users. But we see this is changing because the one individual is becoming more and more capable of getting many of the different jobs from the different functions simply done themselves.

00:06:26:13 - 00:06:54:13
Unknown
Yeah, it's changing from this. Like, I don't know, we could call it like the Rise of the generalist builder. Now, the new generation of people just knowing how to leverage which tool, at which moment to make it be copywriting, may it be designing, may be developing, may be marketing whatsoever. If you know how to orchestrate the tools that are there, you can do it yourself.

00:06:54:13 - 00:07:20:01
Unknown
I mean, maybe today it's still a bit more effort, but in like one year, what are we talking about? Like, I can prom together. Everything done in, like, a couple of maybe hours or days or weeks, but, it's it's really moving. Yeah, it's a very good point. Right now we are like, okay, this V0 zero fivers doesn't do this or that, but just give it time where it's going to go.

00:07:20:03 - 00:07:53:05
Unknown
The longer term that you mentioned the generalist builder. So how do you define this. Who can become this. How who is there. You just talk about it. I think this would be fantastic insight. Yeah, I think I mean, the term I think it's how how it is in our design industry, like the titles and the roles they pop up there are then fancy for like 4 or 5 years, then they exchange if we, if we look at this, this idea of, let's say the generous builder, I think today there are no rules anymore because anybody could be that person.

00:07:53:07 - 00:08:10:01
Unknown
If you are interested in one topic and you know how to use your computer, you know how to use the internet, and you figure out how to use any of the AI services. And they mean they try to get more simple themselves. Right? There's always these comments about you click on GPT and then you can choose the models.

00:08:10:01 - 00:08:36:02
Unknown
And then they have these weird technical names. And I have no idea how to operate the tool, but they're also evolving faster. Midjourney was a discord program a year ago, and now it has a decent interface and you can easily operate on it, so the access to it is there for everybody. Anybody that's interested in becoming that, just sit down in front of your computer and figure it out.

00:08:36:04 - 00:08:58:07
Unknown
And if you have an idea, you can you can test it very fast. You can release it very fast. None. I don't know, it's, it's it's it's it's a new playground. It's not so much modified anymore in the sense of, like, you wake up, you go to design school, you study three for five years, whatsoever. You're in programing.

00:08:58:09 - 00:09:25:09
Unknown
I don't know, it's it's different. It's different today, you know that, the the Max seven, the magnificent Seven companies in the US, metal, Google. They have removed the requirement in their job requirement. They have removed the requirement to go that you need to have a college background. No one cares. I never I, you know, I still don't know which university my team went to.

00:09:25:11 - 00:09:47:13
Unknown
I cannot care less. And and you know, the fact that, to your point, I think is such a good point, because, look, if you are, if you have a level of curiosity beyond average, let's say, and I've got a two years old physics this boy, if I let him, he's going to trade some crypto on my phone. He just figure things out.

00:09:47:16 - 00:10:10:16
Unknown
I just don't get it. He's like, you are less than two years old. Why are you able to unlock to go to Canberra? So if if that's what you can do at two years old, give him time at 12 or 1340. And the screens are so pervasive now, even at times. Once we like blocked kids from using this application, it's almost impossible.

00:10:10:18 - 00:10:41:02
Unknown
You block it here. But the school, oh, there we get. So here's the thing. At age 14, you pretty much could you have a much better understanding of the internet and the world and the app stores and whatever the case may be, than, 50 years old and then all of a sudden then you have access to ChatGPT and cloud and this and this, you end up doing something that you realize that, oh, boy, shouldn't even be going to the school anymore.

00:10:41:04 - 00:11:01:21
Unknown
Yeah, in that sense, the perspective for, I mean, new generation, like growing into this system of the possibilities right now for them, it would be so natural by the age that they realize more and more and they know it's it's it's just normal for them to use it. I mean, it's a the both of us, we still grow into that.

00:11:01:21 - 00:11:23:22
Unknown
And things popped up and apps were still new and companies didn't know how to do it. Yeah, everybody was figuring things out, but by now it has so much changed. I mean, it even reminded me what you were saying, that that, that your voice, like, able to unlock at the at such an early age or figure, figure things out on your phone, for example.

00:11:23:24 - 00:11:51:11
Unknown
So I was, I was very interested, at some point always about this idea of cyborg, if you like, how designers tend to preach this, like I'm working at the, human, machine interaction, and and there's this traditional terms and understanding this in terms of psychology, in terms of how how does it work? How do we create interactions.

00:11:51:13 - 00:12:11:23
Unknown
But it always I always had this idea in my mind. And I mean, Elon is doing that with all of us. We are different. We're not going to talk about this stuff, but this this brain chip company. The idea that at some point we humans, we are so much more close to to our technology, but having it directly implemented in our brain.

00:12:12:00 - 00:12:34:14
Unknown
But then I heard the comments that we are not so far away from that, in that sense that we have the smartphone always in our hands, that you you already has the access, you have to use your fingers and you have to read using your eyes. It's not immediately in your thoughts, but we are already glued to our phones, anyways.

00:12:34:16 - 00:12:59:07
Unknown
And we're using them. And that gives us the access. And your boy 100% the example like growing into that reality. And what we what we come from them. I mean, this is, that we don't know. Yeah. I, I read this comment from France, mass, recently. I'm not sure if I told you even before. Okay.

00:12:59:07 - 00:13:28:14
Unknown
But but, with, with all of this AI tools and this potential for everybody to do everything, he mentioned some fact which which resonated with me in the sense of like it becomes more and more important, how and the way that you create anything, if it has like some sort of a character, like call it branding, call it style, call it uniqueness.

00:13:28:16 - 00:13:57:04
Unknown
Because if anybody can create a notes app, it matters that yours, I don't know, uses flowers instead of bullet points whatsoever. I, I like this, This can be the latest level of differentiation. Yeah. I mean, it's, so it's it's a bright future ahead of us. What do you think? I think I think, you know, I think so.

00:13:57:06 - 00:14:25:08
Unknown
I'm very bullish on branding agencies. I think their future, their future is guaranteed, especially if you have. But make no mistake, I mean, we've tried to we've done a lot of branding, but getting a very unique branding out, it's a very, very, very difficult job. It's got God. God just knows how many details, how many detailed decisions you have to make.

00:14:25:10 - 00:14:49:19
Unknown
That's, you know, my co-founder side, of my circle, they say like, why does branding agency charge what they charge? Then they pay. They're charging to for their life. So I tell them, yes, that plus all those meticulous work that they have to bring in to give you unique branding. You don't see it. I've seen it, I've done it.

00:14:49:21 - 00:15:20:21
Unknown
It's really difficult to pull it off. You have to you have to basically handpicked very the brightest, the most talented, the most creative people, finance people speak. Right. You that's what they are charging you for. Yeah. I, I agree. I mean, I still feel like branding is one of the. It's a very hard part of designer. Like you said, you have to cherry pick either you have the people in place to who are able to work together, create something unique, but also those people, you need to really sit down and figure things out.

00:15:20:21 - 00:15:40:03
Unknown
You need to try it and you need to have a certain taste that's probably something you can learn a bit and you can learn about grids and then like common rules, etc. but it's also something you have a unique way of how you speak, how you, how you communicate as a person, as a human of whom you are.

00:15:40:05 - 00:16:03:06
Unknown
If you are able to translate that into products that you do, they have a certain, character. Yeah. And rather people and appreciate it or not. But best example, maybe weather apps. Now there's hundreds, millions of weather apps and different people create different weather apps. One thing that I now remember, I think it was probably I was a very famous designer.

00:16:03:08 - 00:16:34:04
Unknown
And tonight I think he created one that weather app, something like that was called Very Old, where the human voice was very darkish, something, it's something like that, you know, it's it the product. It's the same everywhere. Like I can look at the weather in Berlin on 100 websites, 100 apps. It doesn't matter. But maybe I like this one particularly because it has a certain vibe, has a certain uniqueness to it.

00:16:34:06 - 00:16:58:19
Unknown
So I really think this is. Yeah, branding is one of the hardest and it's still them going to be one of the most important things. The with the tools that we have 100%. I that's why I think in future if you want to like speculate what's gonna happen, designers and creatives who have taste, there will be work for that because I cannot mimic the taste.

00:16:58:21 - 00:17:20:20
Unknown
I mean, if you can create a taste that can create something for you, but you need to tell it what to do regardless of how many iterations and prompts you have to give it. Creative. But but again, when to start. You know it can give you a lot of output, but you have to at some point it stops.

00:17:20:21 - 00:17:44:20
Unknown
This is this is what we need. That's that cannot be replicated as of now. Maybe even one year from now is like we were such a such foods. But right now I think we are good. Yeah. You're right, you're right. I mean, of course we don't know, but it reminded me I follow like one designer on on LinkedIn and, she's posting like these personalization codes for Midjourney.

00:17:44:22 - 00:18:05:02
Unknown
Different ones every day. With that she's applying to visuals and then, compared them to the basic prompting, let's say so. And by that you already see very easily visually how, yes, the tools are available, but then, okay, we know how to operate them and what to click and how to write a prompt. Okay. That that's that's clear.

00:18:05:04 - 00:18:29:15
Unknown
But yeah, what you're saying is true. Right. You need a certain sense of an eye for the detail or the taste. One could call it, to orchestrate what you would actually now want and what works well and what not. We were just getting so much more efficient and faster on doing such things, and that's amazing. I think this is a very great time to be.

00:18:29:15 - 00:19:00:17
Unknown
And also like being a designer right now is like, I mean, still in between things, I've started pushing pixels myself and moving things around and figuring things out. But I'm getting faster. I'm getting more efficient. On in like in very specific workflows, let's say, and it's, that's very cool because it gives you more headspace to think about other things or to think about the bigger picture or the business impact or, you know, it's, yeah, yeah.

00:19:00:19 - 00:19:24:16
Unknown
And also like, I think, I think there is another aspect of, of of it, I think UX designers, the UX designers that sort of refuse to grow up and see that this is a new world. Technology has even the technology that we used to know is not compatible with the technology. And it's going to get more aggressive than this.

00:19:24:22 - 00:19:48:14
Unknown
Right? That's that's something so I mean, I'm, you know, we're talking we're talking loud. I feel I hope they're listening. But the question I think the big question right now is the age of AI applications. Big question. The big question is about how can you design for an always on experience. So let me give you a example like, let me share my screen.

00:19:48:19 - 00:20:13:15
Unknown
I think something that you should see for folks that are listening, we are putting this one on YouTube too. So you can come here and like to catch one showing. So Felix, this is I am in love with this, with this designer, this. You've got weekend number one, product hunt. And I'm actually trying to get the founder, the designer behind this, to come on the podcast.

00:20:13:15 - 00:20:40:24
Unknown
So, so, so this is, this your bot? Right. So, I just, paid for it, created the dummy page connected to my CMS, just creating adding that blog post to a dummy dummy website. I just want to. What does basically what it does is fascinating. So it says like the pricing is clear. Okay. How many articles you want per month tonight, 2050.

00:20:40:24 - 00:21:02:18
Unknown
Right. It has onboarding I can assure show you down 40 because, you know, it's not easy actually to repeat the onboarding. I'm not sure why, but this is what it is. So been in the onboarding, it's basically gets, you know, your app what you want, what the business is. And it's here. So it knows about what the company is.

00:21:02:19 - 00:21:25:17
Unknown
Consultancy summary who is the target audience. Images for the banners like is basically I give it a prompt, hey I want it to be photo realistic, has a CTA right? So what it does is then it's all based on when you come here, you see this? This shows you, hey, autopilot is on. I'm working on it. You can read what it's doing.

00:21:25:17 - 00:21:52:01
Unknown
It has published five articles processing another one. And then you see how many articles four are scheduled for or later. And it's working and it's publishing. And so that's crazy. I like this is the and it's insane. No. I'm like, well, this is what I was dreaming ten years ago when I was designing experiences. Oh, this is cool stuff.

00:21:52:01 - 00:22:17:18
Unknown
So that's what I mean by all based on experiences, because probably all these apps that we are designing of, you're working, you're going to be calm because let's say you're the app that you are responsible for will introduce a bunch of automation that are working constant, right? Then how do you communicate that, what it is working right now, what decision it's making on your behalf do and then sometimes.

00:22:17:22 - 00:22:46:14
Unknown
So this this app, what it does for X is that whenever it found the article thought topic, it sent me a notification. My inbox was okay. We found three articles. We want you to come to the app and confirmed, I think this kind of stuff. It's very fascinating when it comes to AI applications. It's like it's like having an employee who would like, you know, you gave him a task or like an idea, like you want to grow your business, SEO or that direction.

00:22:46:14 - 00:23:11:02
Unknown
Let's say the and he's like constantly working on it. Right. Is doing research, collecting. What could I write about checking in with you, getting the contents, sourcing the images, knowing your business like it's, Yeah, it's it's it's crazy looking at the interface. Very interesting. It looks so retro now, I have to say, it looks like it looks like matrix.

00:23:11:02 - 00:23:39:21
Unknown
And that's. But then the output again. Yeah. I mean probably was with intention or for reason that that's that it doesn't matter at this point. But yeah always on I mean this is it's, it's interesting motif like, of course we, we also we already have exploring with many different, let's say, possible applications of AI that we can use in the business.

00:23:39:21 - 00:24:01:04
Unknown
Yeah. And it can be it can be data science related, like, it doesn't matter whenever you're a company and you have users and you have tons of data points. Right now, if you have not started yet, I mean, right now, it's the latest point to get started, to figure out what you could do with the data. Leveraging AI.

00:24:01:06 - 00:24:34:24
Unknown
This can be as simple as firstly analyzing it in some sort of way and give you some better sample of. Maybe you could classify your users in better segments, which then after you can ask the next power of the other AI. This specific segment, like you do it in your app, you have a specific target group that you write articles for AI in my in my app, let's say I have different segments of users and I want, some of them I'm more interested in that and in this article.

00:24:34:24 - 00:25:01:05
Unknown
So please, as the robot then customize it, customize it further yourself. And this reminds me, I just, I just came from a website. I forgot the name of this. I know, but it's essentially, promising to consider a user's, traffic where you are coming from. So let's say right now you were googling. How can I manage, remote workers HR with God.

00:25:01:05 - 00:25:25:13
Unknown
And of course, Google will give you some results and you click maybe the first 3 or 5. And this one website is, let's say using this one I tool where they want to they look at your cookies, they consider what you have googled. So the headline that you will get on just one website to it, it's, it's going to tell you, this is how you manage remote employees blah blah blah.

00:25:25:17 - 00:25:55:20
Unknown
Yeah. So yeah, you can speak directly in the context of your very individual context. This is them. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I mean that sounds good in theory. Right. Like because it sounds like I, the stewards, it would enable all of us also from a user's perspective and not just the business side of things, let's say to have only highly relevant content.

00:25:55:20 - 00:26:25:11
Unknown
Wherever I look, it's really tailored to me. It's really making sense. It's addressing my problems in my very individual life. Let's say. Yeah, I think that's definitely one of the ways that many of those individual tools are right now, kind of developing tool. I still remember, like, was it it was Meta's, CEO Mark was saying something not, I don't know, six months ago or something, right.

00:26:25:11 - 00:26:48:12
Unknown
Where he said, like, it's going to be so many different eyes that will pop up and that will be there. Very small ones for specific use cases. And I feel like, yes, this is so true. But then the next level is like, okay, that they all play again better together. And there is also the I can do this, they can, they can and play together.

00:26:48:12 - 00:27:15:07
Unknown
I like also can get said like I said, we can have AI for data science for design, different workflows, user blah blah blah blah blah. And then they are all good and they are. They are allowed to say they are in that one group. Let's let's say but the next step is they need to connect. They need to also be able to sync with each other and exchange data points to take decisions.

00:27:15:09 - 00:27:36:24
Unknown
Yeah. It's it's it's crazy. I don't, I don't think how real time like how much real time this could get because it doesn't it doesn't make sense. If you want to do something like this, like you need to have, like, four bots talk to each other first to be able to create content that sounds like 10s to do.

00:27:36:24 - 00:28:02:08
Unknown
We want to keep the user on hold for 10s just make your sympathy come back so we give you the relevant content. Yeah. Like okay good. Fair point, fair point. Yeah. Okay. We need to be faster. It needs to be instant for the feeling. This is the, We cannot wait. Yeah. That's I don't know. Yeah.

00:28:02:10 - 00:28:27:19
Unknown
Let's, Okay. It needs to be instant edit. That's true. Like, I don't know, I need to. Do you think that now we have all these tools, we can design faster stuff then, like, what's your take on the role of UX designer in the future? In the near future? Now, even when you can use do things so much faster, like in front of a designer.

00:28:27:19 - 00:28:47:23
Unknown
Took ten minutes. I can take it. Took me like three days to get this simple language. I'm like why? Why, why did you spend that? Like, you know, it's a landing page if you want to for a paid marketing campaign. What, what? How can we do it? You know what I mean? So if things are getting, certain things are getting done fast, but we're not talking about proper brands, right?

00:28:48:00 - 00:29:17:03
Unknown
So what what do you think were how we can use designers to create impact? Yeah, it's a great question. I feel like the, the closest like natural just development from from the perspective of a UX designer, it would be to it will not be so much more about like individual execution or like creating a wireframe for a landing page.

00:29:17:05 - 00:29:42:00
Unknown
No, it, the interesting part would be, can you create a system, like how different landing pages could be created? I'm coming to the same point again for different target groups, for example, like playing around with the components and having them, you know, audit and whatever kind of way, etc., etc.. That's, that's not the that's not the magic anymore.

00:29:42:00 - 00:30:14:03
Unknown
But as a UX designer, can you sit down and figure out, how to create landing pages for Gen Z? For my boomer target group? Maybe there are some or two different sections for both of these target groups. Different language, you know, such thing. And yeah, of course, this is at way faster speed, right. With good efficiency level, it's going to increase so much, which this is one.

00:30:14:05 - 00:30:36:14
Unknown
Yeah. I love the part that you said. But system I maybe like you can even if you are explain a bit more what you mean by system. I think that's brilliant. It's not about design. So to summarize what you said, making sure that I've listened to it properly, it's not about designing the wireframe anymore, it's about designing the system that makes the wireframe kind of.

00:30:36:14 - 00:31:00:24
Unknown
Yes. And with the system elaborating on that term. In that sense, I feel like and that's I think it's still true. Like typically a designer, you are in the position working in your company or in your agency or with your clients that you get access to many information and different stakeholders. They want different things. Yeah. You have to see all who wants a certain thing.

00:31:00:24 - 00:31:25:19
Unknown
You have the devs who want to build that easily and fast. You have data which they have some insight on, stuff you have, who has an awesome business perspective on something, and you are still the person who has to take all the pieces, put them together, and kind of make everybody happy while defending the human, the user's perspective and keeping things simple.

00:31:25:21 - 00:31:51:09
Unknown
So in that way system, I mean, you have your is that you? It's designer or UI designer, product designer. You have the access to, connect all the different inputs to different requirements, to different talking points into one system. That's that's what I mean with, with with with that direction. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. I can totally see that.

00:31:51:09 - 00:32:16:18
Unknown
Then, then this then would be the question would be after that, when you have this process system, whatever you call it, it would be like 20 pages of Google document of how you do things. Then, then after that, then you have that system in place. Then you can ask yourself, how can I augments my system with I 100% know how then?

00:32:16:23 - 00:32:42:17
Unknown
I mean, let's say if you have developed this because you wanted to be landing page, that's how you figured out the the compromise between all the requirements of stakeholders. You have addressed it for different target groups. You managed to ship it. What do you do then after you look at the data, you monitor it, and maybe now you want to optimize it, you want to make it more efficient, be more faster while you do the next thing.

00:32:42:19 - 00:33:04:12
Unknown
I just saw a post like different companies now in terms of performance marketing, they're not running ten x 20 x 30 ads. Now they run like 3000, at the same time. And I don't know if you've done it yourself manually. And one of the tools, I mean, it's it's still feels like ten years old tools to upload such things and try it out, etc., etc..

00:33:04:14 - 00:33:34:19
Unknown
So probably it's already AI driven and automated. 3000 it's interesting because you are the second person told me this, you know, this guy called Alex Formosa. It's one of those, like a garyvee type or problem meeting and everywhere else he's so he's he built the Empire. He was is a ripoff guy. Grew his empire from helping GM guys, GM owners.

00:33:34:21 - 00:33:54:18
Unknown
And he really knows how to do paid marketing ads. And then I was, you know, scrolling doomscrolling on LinkedIn. One of this video came up and he was having a back and forth with another GM on the guy and said, like, hey, we tried paid marketing to work out. And he said, how? What did you do? So, okay, everyone else.

00:33:54:21 - 00:34:25:19
Unknown
So how many? So many. So how many like 20. He said that I'm running 50 ads per day. So now you see the second person telling me this, I was like, how? But I've tried it. Which created 30 ads. Took us months. Yeah, that's the thing. Like figure out a way to develop the system is designed to figure out a way to have the system, that you can do it fast in terms of creating the visuals, creating everything around the putting it life whatsoever, learning from it.

00:34:25:21 - 00:34:48:18
Unknown
You know, that's brilliant what you're saying. And I hope everyone pay attention, because how else can you prove your worth, your value that you bring to the table in the business? If the CEO comes in, hey, what do you do? You better off saying that I came up with a system that can create, what, 600 ads? 100 ads per day, and I'm the only one who can maintain it.

00:34:48:20 - 00:35:08:16
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, of course you can prove you. You can prove your position with, with with bringing such unique ideas or something like that to the table. I mean, don't get me wrong, at the point, it's not about creating 6600 or 3000 ads that the the this is the what you do in that sense that that's not the point.

00:35:08:22 - 00:35:26:02
Unknown
It can also only be one. Yeah. If you do it if you which you know exactly what you're doing, if you want to do this one or this is 2 or 5, that's the good one to go. Doesn't matter. If the idea I think the ask is ultimately like, can you figure out a way to create relevance?

00:35:26:03 - 00:35:56:05
Unknown
Yeah. Because the ads, what are we we're seeking for attention. We're either you pay it or you're you're viral, hack it or I don't know. Yeah. And for quantity, it's not, not the measure in that. But I once, it's just recently I wrote a post about it, and I think this relates to this idea of just UX design, which is, in the direction that I'd love to have people on my team, let's say, who are lazy, lazy designers.

00:35:56:07 - 00:36:25:00
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, it's that maybe it's very common. Common sense. Probably it's not a secret or anything, but if the lazy person figures out a way to get the job done themselves, I mean, that's that's super good because then this forces you to do the system thing and then. Okay, perfect. Then you can do something else. Yeah. No, it's I knew where you're going, but I wanted to make sure.

00:36:25:02 - 00:36:52:02
Unknown
I didn't want to assume, but so basically what you're saying is that if you say, look, all this stuff that we are doing is sort of like 80% of it is busywork. I'm sort of like, averse to be doing busywork. I want to make it smarter. I don't want to use intentionally lazy because, you know, I and how can I make it smaller and reduce 80% of busywork?

00:36:52:04 - 00:37:13:04
Unknown
Everyone else in your team that's helping you or working with you for that on that thing going to congratulate you. Thank you. Hey, thanks for the help. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I mean, you're making other people's life easier if you support them with whatever you're building in that sort of sense. As a designer, of course, I mean, you, you're unblocking otherwise.

00:37:13:04 - 00:37:46:09
Unknown
And then you can spend the rest of the time to think about the next area of thing where you could have an influence and that's also a way of like getting gaining the chance to have more impact in all other kinds of perspectives, because as a designer, you also have this very unique power. Like, I mean, whenever I speak with clients or on law or colleagues or people or whatsoever, like we look at Google Docs, we look at slides, we look at notes, etc., we go into discussions, etc., etc..

00:37:46:11 - 00:38:06:02
Unknown
But it always has to at some point it has to be concrete. And who, who, who's the person who makes stuff concrete. It's it's a builder. It's a I don't know, it has to start somewhere. Someone has to make it tangible that it's not just a node. And this is typically then the designer it is right now.

00:38:06:04 - 00:38:30:15
Unknown
And then people start to look at it and judge about it and have opinions about it. So that's a unique skill. I think that that still can come to the table. But yeah, yeah. Then you have to figure out how to leverage it and use it in any of the different areas. And if you do the smart and use tools and stuff to enhance it, good for you.

00:38:30:19 - 00:38:58:15
Unknown
Yeah. You can create more. You can offer more. Look, I think something that you said between the lines, I would like to surface this because I think it's such a big, big point, especially now you said that, okay, when you improve this part, then now you can go find other areas to improve. So you basically it's very clear you're one of those design designers and your, your, your background is very clear.

00:38:58:15 - 00:39:16:18
Unknown
You've been like working at some of the best companies in at least in Germany. You are one of those people that don't sit and wait for others to tell you what to do. And you're not one of those people that say, okay, I'm an interface designer. I can only do interface. Clearly, you are one of those people that like, okay, you're looking for trouble.

00:39:16:20 - 00:39:43:09
Unknown
Yeah, 100%. I mean, yes, I am very interesting that you observe that in that sort of sense. I feel that way. And I feel it's the responsibility of the designers role, actually, because you're not here to just sit and create the interface. But as we discussed before, you have access to so many different data points, it's your responsibility to see something in between this picture.

00:39:43:11 - 00:40:01:11
Unknown
And then also now what I was just saying with this unique skill to make it tangible, to offer the solutions, the solutions to any of your stakeholder, maybe you'll see, oh, won't come to you or the client won't come, but maybe they have an idea or this or that branding and this or that feature whatsoever. And you can do that.

00:40:01:11 - 00:40:20:21
Unknown
You can execute it, you can show it, you can deliver it. That's that's nice. But why do you dig deep. You see other things or you you better look you better look for them. They will pop up. And if you notice them, and if you then want to pick them up and do something with them, that's your that's the designer's responsibility.

00:40:20:21 - 00:40:43:06
Unknown
Ultimately, I feel like then you can offer it. You can offer it to to any of them, to any colleague or a great client, whoever you work with, so important, so important. I'm really happy that, you know, it's sort of like breaking it down. And I think allowed designers, not the best designers. So a it's not only about design, like some people are just like, hey, tell you what to do next.

00:40:43:08 - 00:41:12:20
Unknown
Yeah, I can tell you. Yeah. I mean, also developers or it doesn't matter. Yeah. Like if you ever you unique skill and you put something together and then it's it's exactly like you say it's not, it's like to, to create some really cool and delightful stuff. People are not going to know that. They will ask you and write you a task report to be like, can you create a super fancy loading animation between this or maybe, maybe yes, maybe no, you don't have to answer.

00:41:12:22 - 00:41:33:05
Unknown
It's it's a bit blurry, but yeah, if you see if you see something like this that you have the idea that you could solve it in some way, just do it. Just figure it out, offer it and maybe people like it, maybe not. But yeah, who who else would do it if if if not, you guys.

00:41:33:09 - 00:41:54:22
Unknown
It's inspiring. It's quite inspiring. And I think that's that's the attitude that is very rare. Like I don't see so many people and for very reason. I think that's why I like, you know, in your, you know, I was looking at your LinkedIn, you managed to work on such complex products like revenue. It's very complex. You need to really understand like what's the difference between debit and credit card.

00:41:54:22 - 00:42:16:18
Unknown
Right. What is loans. You know, what is savings. Right. And then from there the you you basically drill down a lot in fintech and then you're like, okay, let me go find more trouble. Let me go work on the work in insurance, which is even a harder problem because all the paperwork you have to automate. So what is it that are you trouble secure?

00:42:16:23 - 00:42:41:04
Unknown
What's what is the you cannot probably work in an e-commerce or something like Zalando stuff, right? It's probably going to get worse. Maybe. Maybe there's also trouble. I guess. I mean it's a it's a very interesting perspective. Nice. I see your point. I mean from my personal perspective, I like, complexity and that sort of sense to, to bring clarity.

00:42:41:04 - 00:43:08:02
Unknown
Revenue is one of the best, example fields in terms of the company philosophy, when I can tell you like, it was like we were sitting with many, many great designers and great product managers, you have all the inputs and powers that you need and that you want to create, within your role, like at the highest functional excellence, let's say that you can, which is a great environment in that sort of sense.

00:43:08:02 - 00:43:30:15
Unknown
But then you're always thinking, the key is you're always challenged in the sense of like, okay, make it simpler, I'll make it simpler. And I think that way also the this product itself, it speaks for itself. There's a crazy amount of complexity behind fintech, but when you use it, I mean, when you use the credit or debit cards, I mean, it should be just one click, right?

00:43:30:15 - 00:43:53:01
Unknown
Or you I don't know how to order it. Okay. It's super simple. You use it in your daily life if you want to move money between different pockets or pots or whatever. It must be super simple for us. But that's I think that's that's the core. That's that's a very cool challenge always. And this also applies to insurance.

00:43:53:05 - 00:44:12:09
Unknown
Not how can it be simple and insurance. I think it's a lot harder topic than that because like so the way I see because I work for both, you know, everyone needs to have banking right. Insurance. You get an insurance. Right? Luckily, nothing bad to happen to you. You're going to need to call up your insurance guy.

00:44:12:11 - 00:44:38:06
Unknown
Right? Good. Fantastic. But banking, you have to use it honestly daily. So, you know, you're more familiar. I think the challenge for the designers to work in insurance, not I mean, the France customer facing is the challenge, but all the stuff that you need to do in the background to be able to introduce that simple future to the customers, that's that's tough.

00:44:38:08 - 00:45:04:06
Unknown
That's that's difficult, that's true. I mean, luckily with with Jets, if there's any great people in place different to what they have been able to have, let's say build this joint first, like it's very cool opportunity because all the puzzle pieces of, individually working systems, let's say they are all there, they're all in place. They are also connected.

00:45:04:08 - 00:45:31:13
Unknown
But now we can really we need to to create a really coherent and simple experience on the front and also to the user, because maybe during the course of having created all of these systems, there's still a bit of complexity inside of that. That's a very cool position for progressive to be in right now. And figure this out.

00:45:31:15 - 00:45:54:24
Unknown
As you mentioned, the last thing on that, as you mentioned, when you were describing insurance, you said, like to call up your insurance guy. I mean, that's already that's exactly not what we want. Because, to have that's the traditional way of this industry. You have the person to call to and figure things out, but how can it be even more simple with the app or with whatever?

00:45:54:24 - 00:46:14:09
Unknown
Maybe it's just the text interface. Well, I don't know who I see where you're going with this. You can. Oh, yeah, I need to. I need to download get safe and like you keep looking for updates because, yeah, I see where you're going with this. Felix. Hey, it's always pleasure talking to you. I think. I think you should.

00:46:14:10 - 00:46:32:07
Unknown
We should have you as a regular guest coming in just to catch up, because it's just whenever I chat with you, to be honest, that makes me feel good. You know, I really appreciate it. I can just say the same. As, you know, we've been both, like, moving around design scene in Berlin for a couple of years. Corona, what's happening and what's a lot.

00:46:32:07 - 00:47:02:05
Unknown
And then the people are how we people want to be connected. I see this in our community and it's great. Then. Yeah, always nice to to stay connected. That way. How to present. Speaking of connection, how can folks follow you website eg where should they be? Yeah, it's I'd say this is easiest is LinkedIn. I working on website and stuff some, some community things but not yet.

00:47:02:07 - 00:47:23:04
Unknown
Okay then I'll put the link in of clicks. Follow this guy. You know, it's very telling. This this episode folks, is just such a pleasure to speaking with you and have you in my corner, my network. It's it's it's, it's almost wine time. Beer time. So I'm not going to take your time anymore. Thanks a lot. Thank you.

00:47:23:05 - 00:47:57:10
Unknown
Thank you for the chance. Thank you for a good chat. It's very inspiring. Delivery. You always very close on all of those topics and controversial opinions. And I hear that's you're moving very fast, and I see that. And that's that's very cool to see. Also with with stuff that you're doing, I appreciate it. Producer. Thank you for listening to UX that I join this next week for more insightful conversations about the impact of artificial intelligence in development, design, and user experience.