Babylon's Fall: Preparing for the Collapse with Theo Howard

Civilization stands at a precipice. The signs are unmistakable – devalued currency, collapsing birthrates, cultural decay, and the fading remnants of once-Christian institutions. But what does this mean for faithful Catholics trying to navigate these turbulent times?

Theo Howard of the Two Cities podcast joins us for a profound conversation about the coming collapse of Western civilization and the Catholic response. Rather than another doomer analysis, this discussion offers a roadmap for hope and renewal through what Howard calls "the Little Way of Christendom" – building parallel structures that can weather the storm while preserving authentic faith.

We explore how the modern world isn't merely post-Christian but apostate – having received divine grace and deliberately rejected it – making our sins far more grievous than those of pre-Christian pagans. Howard compellingly argues that we're living through the Passion of the Church, a mysterious parallel to Christ's own suffering that will ultimately lead to resurrection.

The conversation takes us through the failures of political solutions, including the false promise of electoral politics that functions as a "counterfeit liturgical calendar," distracting Catholics from living according to the Church's authentic rhythms. We examine how COVID served as a warning and test of faith, separating those willing to sacrifice for principle from those who surrendered for convenience.

Most importantly, we discuss practical steps for building resilient Catholic communities – from agriculture to education to economic networks – that can function outside corrupted systems. This isn't about withdrawal but about creating the seeds of a renewed Christendom that will flourish after the inevitable chastisement runs its course.

For anyone concerned about the future of faith and civilization, this conversation offers not just analysis but a genuinely Catholic path forward. Listen now and discover how small, faithful communities built on tradition can become the foundation for rebirth in a post-collapse world.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Theo Howard
• 5:38 Reversion to Catholicism and Media Work
• 11:22 Political Disillusionment and System Collapse
• 19:32 Four Horsemen of Civilizational Collapse
• 29:15 Church Crisis and the American Captivity
• 43:52 The Triumph of the Immaculate Heart
• 56:12 Vatican II and New American Pope
• 1:04:45 The Little Way of Christendom

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:37

SANTE, sante, amare, morti DE CADAS, NUS In tes peraveros. Zones never work out. We always have to plan these on either Saturday mornings or, if I get like a bank holiday in America where I'll have the day off, we're able to set it up like that. But before we even get into what I want to talk about, I want to at least let people know who you are. How did you get into speaking on some of the topics you do publicly? Are you a cradle Catholic? Give everybody a little bit of a synopsis of who you are and how you started taking your faith a little more seriously.

Speaker 2: 1:10

Sure, well, thank you very much, gents, for having me. As you say, it's been a long time, I think. We've been interacting on Twitter and now we're speaking live, which is very nice. I was saying just before we went live that Avoiding Babylon reminds me of the sessions that I enjoy with my Catholic friends in pubs here in England, so it's quite nice to be in a virtual pub, so to speak, at 2pm on a Saturday afternoon.

Speaker 1: 1:35

It's a very good compliment, by the way.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Thank you Sorry, I said that's a very good compliment by the way, thank you dropped a little bit there, um, and I've yeah, I've really enjoyed a lot of your content. Um, I have been producing online commentary from my channel formerly vonda radio, now retitled the Two Cities podcast since last year, for around six years, so I think my first video was in 2018 with the esteemed Dr E Michael Jones, a great Catholic American titan over there. I know we have we traditionalist Catholics have, you know, some pretty substantive disagreements with Dr Jones, but I do think that he is an incredibly erudite and perceptive thinker and I very much respect his willingness to talk to anybody and he really does follow his own ethos of logos there, of of rational speech with with any interlocutor that he'll speak with, including, uh, little micro channels, little homespun micro channels like bondi radio back in 2018, and, in fact, our first conversation was about partly, uh, rod dreyer's benedict option, which shows how sort of these things come full circle, something that uh influenced my, my recent essay at the little way of christendom and when I, when I started my channel, I was actually working full-time for a major archdiocese here in England and this followed my reversion. I am a cradle Catholic, but my parents separated when I was young, and then I grew up in the Novus Ordo, attended Sunday school, all of the youth ministry and the formation I hesitate to use that word too strongly but the life of the parish. And you know, I got to the age of 17, 18, that sort of pivotal age, and I thought Grace was a girl's name.

Speaker 2: 4:05

I didn't know what redemptive suffering was. I didn't even know that to, to, to eat and drink uh of the body and blood of christ in a state of mortal sin, is to eat and drink your own damnation, these very typical um emissions which which I think are purposefully uh obscured by by much of the novus ordo structure, and so that that um meant that I was very uh, inadequately prepared for the, the hissing uh cauldron of of illicit, uh illicit lusts, as saint augustine talked about Carthage, and I'm referring to university and all the corruptions there. So, yes, I came back to the faith at about the age of 23 when the full ramifications of my sins were visited upon me, and at that point I then started getting into catechesis, and then that led to a job at the diocese, and so in this, this diocese in England, I was, I was working as the evangelization coordinator. So I sort of, really, I suppose my my initial immersion in the church's mission today was was very much informed by the new evangelization and, uh, working for the church I mean I I won't go into now, but it was working.

Speaker 2: 5:31

Working within the darson structure is was both an incredibly frustrating experience in how sick uh the the church is and uh, the human elements of the church, um, but also incredibly edifying in having contact with other Catholics trying to do some good within the system.

Speaker 2: 5:51

One of my colleagues was Sebastian Morello, who you might have come across, dr Sebastian Morello, and we had a sort of kind of traddy, underground, you know, guerrilla network within the diocesan structure where we tried to do what we could, and I ended up leaving that job in 2020. So I think the same year you started your podcast and, of course, covid was such a such a cataconic event in, for sure, unveiling the malevolence of the secular power structure which is I was always aware of. And, yes, so I started my podcast because I wanted to ask Dr E Michael Jones some questions and I thought, well, other people might be interested in hearing the answers as well. So why don't I just record it on some very substandard audio equipment? And people did seem to appreciate it, despite the quality of the audio, and I just went from there, so it was an organic venture.

Speaker 1: 6:57

Those early days when you first start the show and you don't know the technical things that you're supposed to do and you're nervous, right. I remember being so nervous those first bunch of shows and just when I would do an interview I'd be sweating because I didn't know how I would handle it and stuff. And it's funny how you kind of just get into your groove the more you do it and you kind of get comfortable behind the mic and then now it's, you know, no matter who I have on, I'm pretty comfortable in my skin and stuff but um I I, yeah, well, I actually found doing it live gives me more comfort than pre-recording because if I see, if I make a mistake, I don't feel like I have to edit it out.

Speaker 1: 7:38

If I, if I do a pre-record, I feel like it has to be very polished and and where, if we do it live, making a mistake or two, we kind of play. There's a comedic element to my mistakes and stuff. So I I'm I'm actually a little more at ease at the live element. But yeah, when we started, when I started the channel, it was because I was being told at my job, if I didn't get the, the jab, I was going to lose. I was going to lose my job and the first video I put out was okay. We all have to be willing to walk away from anything to avoid this thing and I wanted to just give other people a little inspiration. I mean, I've been at my job. At that point I was there for like 17 years or so and I said I will. If I have to sell my home and I have to go live in the wood somewhere, that's what I'll do. And I was trying to inspire other people. And I named the channel Avoiding Babylon because I saw COVID as this system coming in and I'm thinking in my head we just need to avoid this system in any way we can. And then when I heard well, actually, I I read your article in one, peter five first, but I actually enjoyed it more when you put it out on your YouTube channel, just the audio version, because I hearing your inflections and the things that you were saying resonated really well with me. If you guys haven't seen it, go to the two cities podcast, subscribe to it and just check out.

Speaker 1: 9:04

He's got a. It's a 22, 23 minute video called the little way of Christendom, and I felt like everything you were saying was all the things I had been just brewing up in my head, a couple of uh. I'll say this as the 2020 election was coming along, I started falling for the like, getting caught up in the, in the excitement of of Trump coming in and, uh, I thought maybe something will change with this election. You know, and I and I got caught up in in in all the fervor around getting Trump elected and it took probably a month after he got into office where I realized how silly that thought was and how duped I was and I felt stupid for it because I had this.

Speaker 1: 9:56

I saw when Elon came in and he started explaining where all of our money was going to. All like the way the frivolous way America spent money in foreign countries to overthrow their governments under the guise of NGOs and things like that. Now, the first bill that comes, the first budget bill that comes before Trump's like before, while Trump is in office the first budget that gets passed, none of that stuff gets cut out. And I just saw it and I said this country it doesn't matter who's president, it doesn't matter who we elect, none of it matters Nobody has any concern for actually saving our country. Our country is on this precipice of just dropping off and nobody actually cares.

Speaker 1: 10:42

Because they passed that budget, our country is still spending money on the most insane, ridiculous things and I just saw it as they are trying to drain the empire of every last penny they can. Whoever is in positions of you know this oligarchic system to milk the system. They will. They'll pull every dollar they can out of it. The debauchery is going to continue and Trump is just another continuation of everything we've seen before. The war in Ukraine is still going on, even though Trump said he would end it on day one? No, not only is it going on, it's escalating. You're seeing things in the Middle East escalating and it feels like the story is coming to a crescendo, and the idea of investing into that system to fix it just seems preposterous to me.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Yeah, I mean, I sympathize with your experience and you know, back in 2015, 16, along with Brexit, here in Britain, I was really energised by these political, some degree of the natural law and social order and a sense, that which, which was purposefully frustrated Very much, much sooner perhaps than than Trump's presidency, or at least the, the presentation of it to, to the people. And so you're quite right. What what emerges is the thecy of the Washington consensus that he is a servitor of empire. There are prerogatives of an oligarchy, of a crypto oligarchy which has this fig leaf of democracy, which are followed by oh, what did I hit?

Speaker 3: 13:06

No, no, nothing, he's muted oh, you're muted, theo.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Hang on, let me. Yeah, but did I? Oh sorry? Yeah, he's good now. Okay, you're good now, theo. Sorry you got muted there.

Speaker 2: 13:16

Please do say yes, it said my microphone came out, so so there is, there is clearly a consensus there, and that's something that, of course, was made very, very stark and explicit during COVID, where both sides of the liberal political charade were embracing the reality of a so-called pandemic and supporting this grossly disproportionate government response to a virus with such minimal lethality, and the structures for the coercion of the masses came much more clearly into view.

Speaker 2: 14:04

So, alongside that, I think studying history, being deep in history, as Cardinal Newman said, is to cease to be Protestant. It's also to cease to be liberal, because one can then place this crypto oligarchy in a historical panorama and see that actually this hostile takeover of the political order was affected before any of us were born, and that sort of takes the sting out of it a little bit, I find, because actually it's not really anything that we could do. It's accelerated, it's deepened since, you know, over the course of our lifetimes, but this is an ongoing revolutionary process, which is modernity and has been attacking the church and Christian civilization for 500 years now, and there are not going to be solutions from within the framing of the enemies of the church.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Yeah, it's always interesting to me when I hear Protestants talk about the New World Order and Freemasonry and things like that. I'm like you guys are the New World Order. The Protestant Reformation was the beginning of the New World Order, because the Old World Order was Christendom and it was this unification of the secular and the religious and they break that apart during the Protestant Reformation. Then comes the Enlightenment and it just where we are now, because you talked about in your essay, like the four things that actually are the biggest problem we're facing today.

Speaker 1: 15:44

I know one of them was the debasement of currency. Expand on that a tiny bit, because I think that a lot of us do still think there's something salvageable about the system and I think there can't be a resurrection without a death and that, although we do see these things collapsing and everything falling apart around us, it is a good thing. We should actually be happy that it is going to come to an end, because nothing, something new needs to come and there has to be a death before we can do that yeah, we're all deeply aware that our cultures, our societies are defying the natural law so flagrantly, in a way that no other society or civilization has in history.

Speaker 2: 16:28

It really is worse than people talk about. We're a neo-pagan civilization, we're in an apostate civilization, which is much worse because, following Lucifer, we have received divine grace and then rejected it, which is far worse, makes us far more culpable. Divine grace and then rejected it, which is far worse, makes us far more culpable I'm talking about us corporately, in our political societies far worse than having never been offered that grace in the first place. So it is cataclysmic. And my contention in that essay was that we are going to have the the bill is going to come due in our lifetime for this process of apostasy, in materially speaking, spiritually, of course it's, it's always being visited upon us, but it's going to. It's going to be materially felt by the secular masses, and that's that's a good thing. God has established this marvelous system of cause and effect. You know where, if I touch a hot pan, I get burned straight away and I learn not to touch hot pans. And likewise, people make commitments to live in states of sin, and the disorder and disintegration that results should be a teaching moment for them to repent and come to to the truth. And we need that corporately, we need that socially as a civilization.

Speaker 2: 17:48

So people say you can't project, predict the future. But actually, when it comes to demographics and finance, you can. Uh, because you you know demographics. You know demographics are destiny and we can see that with the sexual revolution. The oxidant is in a demographic death spiral and robots and immigrants are not going to alleviate that. There are various oligarchic interests that are invested in telling stories about those, about robots being able to save us, but it's not going to work.

Speaker 2: 18:19

So we are going to have a material drop in standard of living. In fact we're already having it, actually, but it's going to become much more precipitous. So I use the example of the paradigmatic case of civilizational collapse, the fall of the Western Roman Empire, which really was driven by four horsemen, four things chronic currency debasement, barbarian inflows, fiscal and demographic implosion, and the west currently exhibits all four of those horsemen. So I think we're going to see a concatenation of those, um, of those, those trends, I would say, within the next sort of 10 to 20 years, which interestingly coincides with 70 years since the revolution that constituted Vatican II, and it's my contention that we're living in the passion of the church and that that was typologically prefigured by the Babylonian captivity of the Jews in the Old Testament, which traditionally was for the duration of 70 years. So I think both temporally and ecclesiastically these things are converging roughly around 2000 years since our Lord's crucifixion and death.

Speaker 1: 19:35

It is interesting all how the timing is lining up. Also, 2029 will be the 100-year anniversary of when our Lord, or Our Lady, asked for the consecration of Russia. That coincides in 2029. But the thing is especially when you're comparing it to the collapse of the Roman empire. As the Roman empire collapses, um, the church steps in and it doesn't just become the Roman empire. What it what it does is it takes elements of the Roman Empire and it picks up the pieces and Christianizes these things.

Speaker 1: 20:12

So I think, even if we're going through the Passion of the Church, which I completely agree with you on, the question is is this the end or does something new come afterward?

Speaker 1: 20:22

And is there this period afterward where what the church will have to do is pick up the pieces of this post-Christendom world? And it won't look like the Christianity that came about after the fall of the Roman empire, but it will have elements of the post-Christian world we're in now and something new will will come out of it, and it will. It won't look like the original church did, because I think a lot of people want to always go back to try to reform what the early church looked like. It won't look like that. We're in a post-Christian world. There are elements of Rome. There will always be elements of Rome in the church, I think but it's going to look a little bit different than than it did the first time, when the roman empire collapsed, but we are coming to a collapse yeah, well, that's, that's the great mystery, anthony, that people have different perspectives on and they try to.

Speaker 2: 21:18

They try to synthesize, let's say, the messages of our lady, of fatima and of Akita, these warnings in heaven's response to modernity. It's interesting how Our Lady has such a central role in heaven's response to modernity, this apostasy. They try to synthesize that with what Holy Scripture says, just says, about the eschaton and the end of the world. And um, yeah, broadly two views and if, to be quite honest, I'm I'm not entirely committed to one or the other um, but I'll just outline them. So the first is that we are actually um in apocalyptic times and that the coming the antichrist is is quite soon. That really we should firstly look to Holy Scripture, of course, to public revelation, to the deposit of faith to interpret the signs of the times, and that there are many apocalyptic signs the ingathering of the Jews to Israel in 1967, the Six-Day War, when Israel took the Jews, took control of Jerusalem, which, as our Lord said, will happen when the time of the Gentiles comes to an end, which also coincides with the sexual revolution, which is basically the suicide of the Gentile nations, as we discussed. So that was incredibly apocalyptic. Father Thomas Queen has an interesting Twitter thread on this where he cites several signs of the times the re-establishment of the Jewish state in Israel, as well as the public celebration of sodomy, which St Thomas Aquinas, in his commentary on 2 Thessalonians, said would characterize the end times, because it doesn't get any worse than that. Yeah, with regard to to sin, public celebration of sin and offenses against almighty God, and then also the abortion slaughter as well. Our Lord says that the end of times, men's hearts will grow cold Slaughter as well. Our Lord says that the end of times, men's hearts will grow cold. How cold are men's and women's hearts to murder en masse the most innocent? So there are these signs that there is, arguably there has been the falling away of the nations, the great apostasy. That's what we've seen with the dissolution of christendom.

Speaker 2: 23:43

So so there's that timeline, which has compelling arguments to it, but then also there's this notion of the triumph of the immaculate heart and the the reign of mary. Where does that fit into this eschatological timeline? And I think that if we're talking about the church reliving the life of our Lord mystically, then a passion would be followed by a resurrection, of course, which may coincide with this triumph of the Immaculate Heart and of course it's not a dogma, but it's certainly a pious belief that the first witness of the resurrection was Our Lady, which is utterly fitting. And so the triumph of the Immaculate Heart is the resurrection of the Church. And I think one argument I find quite persuasive behind that interpretation of contemporary events is that, well, when the Antichrist comes, the church will have to be strong enough to withstand the most intense persecution in our history for the duration of his reign of three and a half years. Well, I look around the church now and I don't see that kind of Christian zeal, particularly from the ostensible pope and hierarchy and so on, to withstand that level of persecution.

Speaker 2: 25:05

So no, I think, I think it fits that we're going to have to have this chastening, this chastisement, this collapse, which will revive apostolic zeal among the hierarchy, which will then strengthen the church to and extend Christendom to all four corners of the earth, to and extend Christendom to all four corners of the earth, to then be able to withstand the coming of Antichrist and his persecution and to be able to survive.

Speaker 2: 25:30

I mean, the church will be severely suppressed, or public celebration of the of the mass will be, will be prohibited. So so those are two possible timelines. As I say, I lean towards the second, but there's obviously got to be a way by which Holy Scripture is our primary lens by which to look at this. And, as your guest Joshua Charles said recently, the COVID suppression of the public celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was incredibly pre-apocalyptic, incredibly pre-apocalyptic. The mRNA abortion-derived serum was very much a foreshadowing of the mark of the beast. We're going to have lots of these foreshadowings, I think, before the end times. So yeah, we're certainly. I think we're closer towards the coming of Christ, the second coming of Christ, than we are since his ascension.

Speaker 1: 26:24

This is man, this is something. It's just hard for me to separate all the things we're seeing in the world from everything going on in the church at the same time. So you talk about cataconic events, I mean, along with the sexual revolution that comes, you see Pope Paul VI laying down his papal tiara and almost like divesting the papacy of its authority over man and no longer saying the church is the teacher of mankind, but giving that role to the UN. Kind, but giving that role to the UN, because I think it's kind of crazy to not at least think that we are in something different than we've ever been in throughout church history. It's not.

Speaker 1: 27:15

I know we've had these foreshadows of things to come, but, and also the difference in you said earlier that because, uh, because we are are Christian nations who have fallen away, it's a lot different than when the pagans were converted, right, so the church goes throughout the world and the pagans, who had never known God, are converted.

Speaker 1: 27:35

It's a very different thing than once Christian nations turning their back on their God. And then how God needs to handle that, because if it is like the Babylonian captivity, the way God handled Israel at that time is he allowed the Assyrians to chastise Israel, and there's almost no way for me to make sense of it. Unless there is a coming chastisement, there has to be one, and all the things that you're talking about the collapse of the currency, the collapse of the of, of fertility, and all of these things just seem to be coinciding, and the and and the fact that the Jews have been gathered back into Israel, it, I don't, I don't. It's such a strange thing to separate that from the Eschaton. Because they were, they were driven out as a judgment by God, so for them to even be allowed to come back in is a very significant event.

Speaker 2: 28:33

Yeah, absolutely yeah, the doctrine of the witness people and that, as you say, there, there, the, there is a. It is cataconic, as in it is restraining of Antichrist to be anti-Zionist to try and restrain the gathering of the Jews in Israel, because that is going to precipitate the end times, and that's why they're doing it, that they are looking to precipitate the coming of their Moshiach. You know the Antichrist. So, yes, I used the word cataconic, but I think I actually mistakenly meant apocalyptic, as in unveiling, cataconic, as in restraining.

Speaker 1: 29:13

But yes.

Speaker 2: 29:14

I.

Speaker 1: 29:14

Well, the catacomb has a very tight, especially when you go into the fathers. There's something about the catacomb that has to do with the Roman Empire, so a lot of them thought it was the, the, the roman empire itself, which, um, okay, so uh, after the roman empire collapses, then when charlemagne comes, there's this idea of empire that comes back in that it kind of laid dormant for a few centuries after the collapse of the roman empire and then you get charlemagne becomes holy roman empire, emperor, and that idea I mean for us now is kind of foreign completely.

Speaker 3: 29:51

But in throughout, throughout. You know history every time there's been a a large like civil civilizational shift, you've also see a shift in in like a loss of of romanists. So you have like napoleon, and, and that whole age of the french revolution results in the actual loss of the holy roman empire and the title of holy roman emperor, but you still do have the hapsburgs up until world war one and like this, this almost suicide of Europe. And then you do lose the Habsburgs under Blessed Carl and now, like Anthony said, you have the Roman Pope laying down the tiara ushering in the 60s and Vatican II and the sexual revolution. So it's like every time we lose more of our civilization in Christendom it coincides with some loss of Rome in some sense.

Speaker 2: 30:50

Yeah, that's entirely true. And what is Rome Romanitas? Rome is law, and the Antichrist is the man of lawlessness. So what Paul VI was expressing there was really one of the principal themes of his apparent pontificate, which was the renunciation of the rule of law in the church. And once law is renounced in the church and the pope is the father of princes, as Unum Sanctum says, you know, the vicar of Christ on earth, he will have to answer before God for the souls of kings and emperors, the very highest human authority, and so an authority comes from above.

Speaker 2: 31:36

So there's this mysterious, you might say a kind of universal set of abdicated from the very top. It's then flowed down into um, into, you know, all spiritual and temporal office holders. So you know, president trump obviously does not look to uphold the us constitution, even though that's what he swore to do at his inauguration. King Charles III does not uphold the oaths that he made his coronation, even though that's what he swore to do. And our bishops do not judge and punish heretics, even though that is their role as shepherds of the Catholic Church. There's this lawlessness which, as, as I say, is a refusal to punish, uh, the, the medicine of mercy which john the 23rd, introduced this revolutionary conception of, of the papacy, and that is all, I think, very um, very ominously foreshadowing of the coming of the man of sin, the man of lawlessness.

Speaker 2: 32:37

Just to just to add there on what you said about the roman empire, that the, the idea of empire resurrected with with, with charlemagne. That's true in the west. But the, the, the church, recognized that the roman empire continued in the institutional form it had continued, which was in the east. Uh, we call it today the byzantine emperor empire, but really that's a western historiographical term. They just thought of themselves as romans, as carrying, and in fact Justinian spoke Latin and most of the popes in the 7th and 8th centuries were Greek. So there was what's called the translatio imperii, where, with the Byzantine weakening the Roman popes, pope Leo II, I think, translated the imperial dignity from Constantinople from the Greeks to the Franks, and he crowned.

Speaker 1: 33:36

Well, it's interesting because we say one holy Catholic and apostolic church are the four notes of the church, but it really is one. Holy Roman and apostolic church are the four notes of the church, but it really is one holy roman, catholic, apostolic. So even the, even the byzantine, right now I, I, I am. I just bought dr dr alan phimister's book, uh, the iron scepter of the son of man, so I just started digging into. I just got it yesterday, a great book, oh, I'm so excited for it.

Speaker 1: 33:59

So now, this is why you can say even even the Eastern churches that are part of that are incorporated into the Roman church, like they are Roman. So it's, even though they're a different right and they're an Eastern right, they are still Roman. Roman is definitely a note of the church and it's. It's interesting You're saying that, like the, the, the prophecy of Daniel, even, where Nebuchadnezzar's dream and he has the dream of the idol with the two legs in that prophecy the two legs represent East and West that the church will be in two separate. You know, there will be a church of the East and a church in the West, but they will all still be Roman.

Speaker 2: 34:44

Yeah, right, exactly. And it's the fact that that split has occurred which again points towards the end of time. The legs of iron then mingling with feet of clay, which the fathers also interpret that the two halves of the Roman Empire will lead to 10 democracies which the Antichrist will conquer. That's, that's. I think it's been a while since I've read Dr Phemis's book, but he elaborates and comments on the father's commentary on the dream there in Daniel, father's commentary on the uh the, the dream there in daniel. So, yes, that when, when you see is, as rob was saying, the vitiation of romanitas in the world, that is, the uh the, the trajectory towards, uh, the end of the world yeah, it's kind of hard to not see America as the new Rome and Israel as the whore of the apocalypse.

Speaker 1: 35:48

It's kind of hard to not see it working out that way. I mean, that's kind of the way I'm seeing it happening in the church, coinciding, where it's almost like the church is impotent at this time to even guard her children, to warn them of what is on the horizon, and it's left up to people like us to be explaining these things is such a such a stark thing for me to understand that and there's so few priests willing to speak out on on this issue that I, I don issue that I don't know how it goes forward, because there's so few people in positions of authority who are willing to discipline their children and this idea of lawlessness right. The whole world is in a state of lawlessness now, including parents with their children. Their children will do things and parents don't punish their children in any way. They don't correct their behavior. In some cases, you have parents encouraging this horrible behavior and it's just a complete disintegration of authority and fathers unwilling to play their role, from the church to the secular, to every facet of society right now.

Speaker 2: 37:02

Yes, exactly, exactly, and it begins at the top. If you'll permit me, I'll just quote here from Romano Amerio's Iota Runum, a masterful treatment of the council in the post-conciliar crisis. He writes the external fact is the disunity of the church, visible in the disunity of the bishops among themselves and with the pope. The internal fact, producing it, is the renunciation, that is, the non-functioning of papal authority itself, from which the renunciation of all other authority derives. So it's this mysterious platonic participation on. Air.

Speaker 2: 37:42

De balzac said that when they cut off the head of King Louis XVI, they cut off the heads of all the fathers in France. There's a fragilization of authority that occurs from that attack, that killing of the king ritual by the enemies of the church and, although they might not know it, the secular man that today feels that inner shame uh in being, let's say, in disciplining his children in a public space, because p, because our effeminate society uh, our deeply denatured society uh means that the people around will start to um, scorn him uh, or to criticize him for, for, for being the the father. He doesn't know that, that the, the cause of that is because of john the 23rd and paul the sixth renunciation authority, but it flows down to all those you know, through the capillaries of society, to all those individual cases, all fragilized because these men refuse to be fathers. But as you say, you know they're. They're silent, but our lord was largely mute during his passion.

Speaker 1: 38:44

So the scheme fits he has his seven words on the cross and also St Peter, right? So St Peter denies our Lord and all the apostles scatter and what you have is just St John and Our Lady at the foot of the cross, but all the other apostles scatter after Peter's denial. Apostles scatter after Peter's denial and, typologically, you can't take Because, look, I made a point on a recent show that all of the post-conciliar popes seem to be ashamed of our Lord, right, all of them. And there's this I don't know if it's a feminacy or what, but they are afraid to say the truth to the world and they're worried that they're going to be scorned because they and Jesus says you, who are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of, like, there's, there's this really big issue of these post-conciliar popes afraid to just be men and say no, this is wrong, you cannot do this.

Speaker 2: 39:48

Yeah, and it's worse than that. They're actually preaching anti-Catholic doctrines as well, condemning propositions of liberalism, ecumenism and so on. So it's actively destructive. And I was speaking with a friend the other day and he was talking about how, just how upsetting the church crisis is, and and I said, yeah, the church crisis is the most upsetting thing in the world. The most, the most, the most, the most. Um, the most conceivably upsetting thing in the world, because Our Lady stood at the foot of the cross was the most dolorous person that's ever existed. Yeah, even though she knew that he would rise again, and so it fits that today we would be experiencing something of her sorrow.

Speaker 1: 40:42

Yeah, look man, because we have a new Pope now and I think my position is that, because I'm always caught between there's a level of docility towards the Pope that you should have as a Catholic, but there's also like we can't be naive. I mean, leo is not going to restore anything, he's just not. I mean he's he OK, he's the pope and we have to show a level of filial piety to our father. But the idea that he's a great pope is absurd. I mean he's even even the fact that he didn't come in and just flat out say these things need to be corrected so far. So there may be this period of where it's not as hectic in the media and stuff, but nothing is being fixed within the church anytime soon. In that respect, it is going to take a chastisement from God. The situation is so bad on the human level that only divine intervention can actually fix the problems that we're dealing with.

Speaker 2: 42:01

Yes, I wonder if the enemies of the church I get the sense sometimes narratives, the meta narrative that they were looking to, that they were transmitting and they they triggered many, many converts. You know, when the devil acts so explicitly like that, it's going to drive people towards our Lord, but at other times they seem to be eking out the clock. I don't know my American football so well, but there's sort of metaphors with regards to sort of playing for time and it seems to be that with these various office holders in both church and state, there's a big, there's like the endless conversation. It's like nothing actually, you know the meme nothing ever happens. It's a very interesting conversation. It's like nothing actually, you know the meme nothing ever happens.

Speaker 2: 42:43

It's a very interesting thing to consider, really, because it generates interesting responses. I think it generates this response of learned helplessness, where you realise that your church and your civilisation is decomposing and there's nothing you can do about it, and it's designed to breed despair, which is a sin against the Holy Ghost. So so thereby to damn. I mean he's already spoken publicly denying the licity of the death penalty, which is a condemned heresy. But you know, who knows, perhaps he will receive that grace of conversion. It's very striking that you've got this American pope and an American emperor, so to speak. It shows how America is global. Is is globalism just Americanism? You know is. Is globalization just Americanization?

Speaker 1: 43:53

yeah, I think it is right. It's look, there was this period where, look, the church at one time went forth and baptized all nations. And what happens, especially during the 9-11 period, what you see is America going forth and spreading democracy instead of the gospel. It's this weird thing where we're like we need to spread democracy. No, if you actually wanted to spread anything, if you would have went and converted the Muslim nations, could you imagine if, instead of us going and spreading democracy, we went and spread the gospel and converted the Muslim nations to Christianity? Then you would have had some kind of lasting peace in the Middle East? But that's not what happened and that's why, in a way, the gathering of the people of Israel into their homeland has a very big part to play in this them.

Speaker 1: 44:43

Stoking enmity between people in that area is a very big deal. It's yeah, because we could have actually had peace in the Middle East if we had gone and spread the gospel there. But you can't do that after the Enlightenment period because you already have this revolution, and you already have this revolution and you already have all these nations who refuse to accept Christ as king. So there's, the American government has to be seen as secular and it doesn't matter how Christian your, your president, pretends to be, they're not really Christian. They're not actually serving Christ as king. So they go and they spread this false gospel to the Middle East, which is democracy, which is really just liberalization, and it backfires in their face.

Speaker 1: 45:30

And the whole world just seems to be falling deeper and deeper into chaos.

Speaker 2: 45:36

Yeah, liberalism is disintegration. Before the Middle East was occupied, europe was occupied. That's the story of the Second World War. That Europe, the old world, was divided between the communist soviet union and the liberal capitalist american empire. Never since we've lived under this american dispensation. Our mutual friend charles colombe, very acutely, astutely, characterized the post-conciliar period as the american captivity of the church.

Speaker 2: 46:04

That's actually a great way to see it, that that we concentrate on many of the nouvelle theologians being european and, uh, being the sort of nerve centers of modernism, places like the university of niemegen tubing in in germany, all of these, these heretics doing such destruction. But actually, as, as Charles Cullum points out, who funded them? Who publicized their poisonous doctrines in the press? Who lauded their efforts? Who put institutional, that is to say legal, via the American empire and its influence on Western European governments, put legal weight behind the ecclesial revolution. It was the united states yeah, and there's been.

Speaker 1: 46:51

I know e michael jones has spoken about the cia uh sticking their nose into the council itself, being behind some of the the the more liberalized documents that came out. Uh, they were very involved in who was going to be succeeded by Pius XII. I mean, there's documents that have come out talking about all of that. It really is, and you even have Pope Benedict XVI speaking about after the French Revolution. They saw the American Revolution as like a correction of that and that there can be a revolution, but it doesn't have to go as far as the french revolution, but we can. And they really brought the american revolution into the church, and especially at the time of the council.

Speaker 2: 47:38

Um, and, and now it's fulfilled we have an american pope. It's so. It's really interesting. It's reached its apogee, isn't it? Isn't it fitting, though, that if it is, it is the American captivity of the church, the American revolution, the church, that now it has an American head, and it shows how consistent that research as you say, by Dr Michael Jones, and also by David Wemhoff, who subsequently has become rather Americanist, but that view, a time life, cia, john Courtney Murray, the American proposition is cutting edge research.

Speaker 2: 48:10

I believe that that it is. It is one of the interpretive keys for the church crisis Understanding the role of America, something omitted by various thinkers, writers like Taylor Marshall, for various reasons, something Americans often apt to forget, but I think it's very important. I mean, just a few years ago, I was hearing rumors of, following Bergoglio, there being an Opus Dei, saviour pope put in to recuperate people back into the Vatican, to paradigm the Vatican, to institution and, and, and thus rehabilitate them back into this dialectic, and that is the revolutionary process. It is the dialectic, and Ratzinger was a master of the Hegelian dialectic.

Speaker 1: 48:59

Oh man, this is so interesting. I didn't think this is where we were going to go with this. But even the FBI looking into traditional Catholics in America that that's all come forward. They see that we have the younger generation does not care about the council at all. We're sick of it. We don't want anything to do with it because I, when I, when I come in, I don't want to say come into the church.

Speaker 1: 49:26

I've always been Catholic. I don't even like the term revert, but when I start taking my faith seriously, even all of my favorite Catholic authors and speakers, they all were just always talking about the council and the hermeneutic of continuity and all these things. And it's so different now the conversation that younger people I think the McCarrick scandal and COVID just completely flipped the switch where people, the younger generation, does not care about this stuff. We want to return to tradition. We are so sick of the way that Bishop Barron speaks, the way that all the Steubenville guys talk about the council and all this stuff. Just, we're done with it and I think they have a very deep fear, so that the idea of an Opus Dei, savior, pope coming in makes a lot of sense that they want to try and get, and the appeal to the Americans, who are kind of leading the charge, towards tradition, the younger generation who are just fed up with everything they see.

Speaker 3: 50:31

Did you see that quote? By that I don't know if it's a Swedish or Norwegian bishop, bishop, bishop Erichvard, I have it right here. Oh, awesome. So he says, today's young Catholics are not ungrateful for the council's gifts, but unable to proceed with their grandparents' mindsets, uninclined to flog dead horses, unenthused by fossilized projects of adjournment when the sun has set on the giorno by which they were defined.

Speaker 1: 51:02

So this is a bishop who actually sees what's happening. He's like the younger people. They want nothing to do with this. They don't want to flog a dead horse. It's just the language that they all spoke of. You saw, even in Barron's conversation with Ben Shapiro talking about.

Speaker 1: 51:15

Well, the Second Vatican Council spoke of other religions and Jesus is just the privileged way Like. We're sick of this, we're tired of it. We want the church to stop being ashamed of what it is. We want the, we want the hierarchy to proclaim the truth of the catholic faith. So we're in a position now where I'm watching these online uh discussions between catholics and protestants, or catholics and muslims, or catholics and atheists, and a a lot of the Catholic apologists are arguing for a faith that is no longer presented. It's just no longer presented by the hierarchy. It's a totally different version. Even this conversation about do Jews and Muslims worship the same God as the Christians? I guess in the natural order, you could technically say they worship one God and there only is one God. But no, their God is very different from the Trinity and the God of that we worship. It is a drastically different God.

Speaker 2: 52:17

Yeah, but all those errors were crystallized by the documents of Vatican II and its official exegesis, by the office holders in the church. I was just reading the other day an address by John Paul II to the European Parliament in Strasbourg in 1988, where he was basically preaching liberalism and condemning Christendom, and that is the interpretation that the official interpretation was given. Well, it's ratified by the official interpretation, so therefore it's erroneous. So I'd say this idea of ignoring the council I don't necessarily agree with. I think the documents do need to be revisited and they need to be rescinded. They need to actually be all corrected. They need to be. The truth needs to be proclaimed.

Speaker 2: 53:05

But, as we're saying, this is there was a geopolitics behind Vatican II. There were tens of thousands of American soldiers in Italy with Pershing missiles and nuclear capabilities in Italy at the time, and the council fathers clearly felt that pressure. There was the Council of the Media that Ralph Vilkin describes and shaped the public Council of the Media that Ralph Vilkin describes and shaped the public optics of the Council controlled by the American Empire, and the Council then became this surrender to the modern world as spearheaded by the American Empire. And so I think when we see today Prevost being elected largely as a result of american pressure. I'm talking about cardinal dolan, cardinal burke and so on. Um, we're still in the same paradigm, and you're right.

Speaker 2: 53:57

There is, of course, this traditional revival.

Speaker 2: 53:59

I think we just got to be vigilant that the traditional revival, because the enemies of the church see this, they have, they have more information than we have. Let's say, the synagogue is very good at intelligence espionage, it's one of their super weapons, and so they can see what's going on and they will look to hijack and co-opt that reaction. And I think, that revival and you can already see that, with certain characters perhaps that are infiltrating the traditional movement and they're trying to synthesize it with Nietzscheanism, or they're trying to synthesize it with white ethno-nationalism, based Catholicism, where again the church is instrumentalized it's not about this being the means by which God has established for us to save our souls and be happy with him forever in the next life, but instead it's it's seen as like the best way to form, like a based social order or something like that. Well, that's a false gospel, uh. So we've got to be, we've got to be careful of of, you know, the. The snake is always is moving and it will always adapt uh to different circumstances.

Speaker 1: 55:04

Yeah, um, if we see we have this American pope and we have this American emperor, we also have this prefigurement of the mark of the beast that Trump himself was very much a part of, and the closest thing we've ever seen to the sacraments being shut down is what happened during that period. I can't help but see everything and and the idea of spectacle that I never really caught on to before, and it really struck me after the assassination attempt of how much I was caught up in that and my, my, my fervor for getting Trump. Oh, you need Trump elected. And then just seeing that he even talked me into it. Oh, it's so wild I was. So they got me. How did they get me?

Speaker 1: 55:55

Cause I was so done with politics after 2016. I was like this is all nonsense, like everything is just nonsense. And they got me and I feel so stupid for falling for it. But, um, something got me and I feel so stupid for falling for it. But something hit me. I went away with my wife. Then I just see the great powers are coming up. I think the world will be at war before Trump's term is up. I don't see how we can avoid that between China, russia, the Middle East and us with our stupid fingers in every single area of these major powers. I don't see how we're not coming up on something way worse than World War II. It's just a matter of how soon.

Speaker 2: 57:04

Yeah, I think that's very plausible.

Speaker 2: 57:05

Look at the, the classic manifestations of divine wrath, uh, on man's against as a result of man's sinfulness, and, of course, plague.

Speaker 2: 57:14

Well, we had a fake plague, um, and then and, and war, and and famine, uh, and there have been several instances of what people call predictive programming covers of the Economist, various movies, tv shows and so on, to point to or suggest that President Trump will be the figure that leads America into a third world war. And, of course, I think that was the sort of meta-political purpose of Trump in his first term, in that President Hillary would never have got 80% of Americans receiving an abortion-derived mRNA injection, surrendering their bodily autonomy and so on, allowing the state to nationalize their bodies, all the implications that it results in. But Trump gets people on board, or a lot of people on board, to do that. Likewise, many more Americans are now joining the military because of Pete Hegzeth's anti-woke campaign. It gets Americans, the deplorables invested back into the, the empire, rehabilitates people back into the system. And while President Kamala Harris might not get people enthused about a war with China or Russia, whoever it is, president Trump may well fulfill that function.

Speaker 1: 58:29

So yeah, the woke thing to me, it was almost so ridiculous that nobody really you're talking about 2% of the population actually believe that nonsense. So when they were pushing these policies and all facets of so, for Trump to come in and just tone that back a little bit, he looks like a savior figure, but meanwhile it was just so ridiculous and absurd to begin with. So now everybody thinks he's this savior figure and, like you said, pete Hegseth coming in and he's getting woke out of the military, and now you have enlistments are up and everybody's getting that patriotic spirit up again, and then all it's going to take is some false flag to happen somewhere. Nope, we have to go and take care of this and I can't believe russia did this to us. It just seems like the chess pieces are being put in place for all of those things to happen.

Speaker 1: 59:20

So now let's say those things are coming to happen. What is it? Because the whole point of your um, little christendom uh, the way of little christendom was you had suggestions on ways that we can actually be be the thing that rebuilds from the, from the pieces, once it's shattered, because it's going to shatter and it may be 10 years, it may be 20, 20,. But whatever we're in right now, it is coming to a collapse. So how do we rebuild from that?

Speaker 2: 59:53

Yeah. So that, I think, is imperative on us as laity, our vocation is preeminently political. So we're family men, we have our families, we have our communities and that then forms a society, forms a political community ultimately, which we want to convert. We must convert to the kingship, to recognize the kingship of Christ as is owing and befitting his dignity. Christianity must have Christendom as a kind of incarnation in this life, a public expression of Christ's reign. So that's our mission and it's about how do we fulfill that mission. Well, what I wanted to do there was present a positive vision, because there's so much ruing of what's happening today and I think within that is a little bit of residual liberalism in which we don't want the comforts to be taken away and so on, and I include myself in that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:47

None of us want to experience that I like going out on the boat on weekends. I like to do things.

Speaker 2: 1:00:52

Exactly, yeah, I mean it's yeah. Yeah, we've only known that post-war abundance which is going to come to an end, and I think it behooves us to really start thinking about constructive propositions, constructive solutions to what we should be doing outside the babylonian structures and systems. And so that's, that's what I was advocating, particularly in part two of that essay. The little way of christendom isom is to divest ourselves, divest our time, talent and treasure from these Babylonian structures and invest them within Catholic institutions to reconstitute Catholic social order. Now, my friend Will Tucker I think you know Will Tucker of the Analogeratist, channel.

Speaker 1: 1:01:46

he responds to people saying well, this is black pilled, this idea. You, tucker I think you know Will Tucker of the Analogeratist channel he goes to the same parish In response to people saying, well, this is blackpilled, this idea you know don't.

Speaker 2: 1:01:53

Ah, right, okay, small world, yeah. In response to this charge that to secede from participation within the liberal process, the electoral process, in my view, the theatre In response to the charge that, well, that's just blackpilled, no, no, will, says in response, no, you participating are on like a blackpill dialysis OK, if you invest your hope in Trump, you will only be disappointed If you invest it in Brexit, in Nigel Farage, in Marine Le Pen, in whichever liberal political entity you choose, it will only bring despair, which is a sin. So it breeds despair, shall we say, it inclines people to it. So, no, I think what I want to do is offer. What I wanted was to offer people a message of hope and of something constructive.

Speaker 2: 1:02:45

So, following my friend Josue Hernandez, who runs the Pasqua Florida project, I wanted to try and look at what organic integralism would look like, what a reconstructed Christian social order would look like from the ground up. If the enemies of the church are building this monolithic, globalist panopticon, judeo-masonic, liberal system, then it behooves us to look to the little way inspired by St Teresa of Lisieux's spirituality, the little way, the humble way of family life and then reconstituting community life Catholic businesses, guilds, almshouses, schools, sodalities, orders of chivalry, all of these intermediary institutions which will be there and will be able to hopefully withstand this liberal systemic collapse.

Speaker 1: 1:03:44

You see that happening in some areas. The Catholic land movement you see some. I know Brian Holdsworth is also trying to do something like that, where he's trying to build a community of Catholic businesses because we really have to have, especially if we come up on a situation where if you don't do this, you can't buy and sell. We're going to need some way for us to care for one another without being a part of that system. I hope we still have time to do it because it really is an important thing and, like this year was the first year, my wife was like we have to start our garden. So we started with a garden this year and just just little things, just just to see how that goes. Next year I'm going to make it much bigger, but I hope there's still time to do these things Because I I do think we just recently interviewed bug hall and he talked about he just bought a plot of land in Arkansas and he's building.

Speaker 1: 1:04:47

He wants to make it so that he doesn't even have to buy like cattle feed. He wants his. He wants a fully integrated farm system that the that cares for itself. So you don't even need the system to buy, buy things from them at all. So, um, yeah, but and you also mentioned in your thing like even, even, um, like the pro life movement, things like that have all, all just been corrupted at this point. They're all just entities that are made to raise money but they're not actually getting anything done. So, yeah, we we're going to start having to have a 50, a hundred year plan here. We have to stop thinking about fixing the thing that's in place right now, but we have to have a 50 100 year plan. Here we have to stop thinking about fixing the thing that's in place right now, but we have to start thinking 50 100 years out yeah, here in the us it's all next four years, right next election that's, that's, that's all we think about yeah, yeah, it's like a counterfeit liturgical calendar

Speaker 2: 1:05:42

the american electrical that's a craft by the, the fallen angels, to distract you from living the liturgical year. Uh, you know when's. When's the next? Uh, you know impeachment trial, and when's this primus?

Speaker 2: 1:05:57

primary interesting wow it's, it's all a counterfeit. So, uh, yes, I think that's that's encouraging. As you say, the hour is late, I do that sense, and that's felt not just among traditional Catholics. There were 200, I think, wealthy parents and they were asked who feels optimistic or who feels that their son is going to have a good standard of living. It was cast in entirely materialistic terms and two people put their hands up out of 200.

Speaker 2: 1:06:39

So there is a widespread awareness that, as I say, the consequences of our sinfulness are going to be, uh, visited upon us. So, yes, I think the hour is late, but but still, that doesn't mean that it's not. You know, it's like conversion, it's. It's never too late. You can always, until until you breathe your last, you can take these steps to to be, uh, integrally traditional, which means liturgically traditional, which means doctrinally traditional, but it also means nutritionally traditional in terms of growing your own food. It means you know as much as you can in your, in your, in your work as well, in your, in your friendships, in your pastimes, in your pursuits, all of these different means by which to you know, to to distance yourself, secede from this Antichrist machine.

Speaker 1: 1:07:32

Yeah, we have our work cut out for us. Yeah, it's not. Rob always teases me a bit because I do feel this coming and he's like, yeah, but you're still in New York. He's like you still haven't, you still haven't.

Speaker 3: 1:07:48

So it's like I live on an Island in New York.

Speaker 1: 1:07:51

I still feel this impending sense that something is coming it's not doom or anything and in a way, I'm not. I'm in no way am I blackmailed, and and I am I'm excited that I get to see the story of Christianity playing out Right, because I think a lot of people have this idea that after the book of Acts the story is over and it's not like the, the. The story of Christianity is very much the spread of Christendom and then the collapse of Christendom, and then there's a very big climax at the end of the story and we're, we're, we're in that part of the story. So to me it's exciting that we're in that. But there's going to be a lot of suffering on the horizon and I think if we don't start preparing ourselves for that suffering, we're going to be toast. And you know it starts with something as small as fasting regularly and denying ourselves pleasures, but then, when you start getting on the bigger scale, yeah, it's going to come to starting to plant your own food and things like that and then trying to figure out how we're going to function with other Catholics. If this happens, because we're not going to, you're either, you're going to be. You're going to be in a situation, much like we were in covid, where you will not be able to participate in society if you do not do X, will not be able to participate in society if you do not do X.

Speaker 1: 1:09:07

And you found out very quickly how many people were like I just got it because I wanted to be able to go out to a restaurant. I just got it because I wanted to be able to go to a concert. Now the people that gave in on that first one to me, that first one, it was like if I'm not willing to lose my job over this, if I'm not willing to give up everything to stand by this, I'll never be able to have the strength when the real one comes. That's kind of how I saw it. So it wasn't like I thought we were in the apocalypse at that time. I just said this is a type and if I don't have the strength to stand up to this type when the real thing comes, I'll definitely not have the strength for it, because this is just a small little inconvenience at this point. So yeah, I want to start thinking deeper about this and how we're going to go forward and care for one another when we're cast out from the system.

Speaker 2: 1:10:01

Yes, contra the nothing ever happens meme, we feel that, partly because of the psycho-spiritual ways in which the enemies of the church, which have hegemony over our societies, manipulate us, but also we're just in a lull and, as you say, we have lived through very seismic events which were deeply typological and, as you say, they were a great grace because they afforded us the opportunity to, you know, the revelation of conscience in a certain sense, and I do think that you know, even though you're on an island, in New York, and New York is definitely getting hit first by I hope I get taken out in a blast.

Speaker 1: 1:10:46

I have no desire to live through some post-apocalyptic scenario yeah, that fire from heaven.

Speaker 2: 1:10:51

Yeah, I think, uh, the big apples I'm in london at the moment. Uh, london, you know uh was a progenitor of the, the revolution. I mean, freemasonry was first sort of unified here in 1717, uh, so so l going to get it, but I think there will be some kind of warning. Covid was a warning, but I think there'll be another warning. I mean, you know, the message of Fatima talks about the message left by, the sign left by my son, and Gara Bandal talks about, you know, an explicit warning. Now, I know, gara Bandal, there's issues there. I'm not an expert on Marian apparitions, I'm not too well read and knowledgeable about them, but I do think that there's a common theme there. It will, there will be some kind of sense that you know. We know when we have to take more dramatic steps.

Speaker 1: 1:11:53

Yeah, my plan is to go to Minnesota and stay with Rob when things go terribly wrong.

Speaker 3: 1:11:58

I'm coming.

Speaker 1: 1:12:01

First time Rob's heard that plan.

Speaker 1: 1:12:05

Theo, this was so fun, man. I definitely want to do another one. So I know you're in England and we're over here. Uh, this was so fun, man. I, uh, I, I definitely want to do another one. So I know you're in England and we're over here, but if I get a bank holiday that comes up in American bank holiday or something where Rob and I are both off, we're definitely going to schedule something with you. Um, you, uh, yeah, you have something planned for tonight. That's why we did this a little early on the American side. But thank you so much for your time, man. This was, it was really nice getting to meet you and, yeah, we're, we're, we're very, we're, very much on the same page with the way we're seeing things. So it's good to have a brother across the pond.

Speaker 3: 1:12:35

Where, where can everyone find you and your channel?

Speaker 2: 1:12:39

So it's the two cities podcast. There was some kind of evangelical American Protestant podcast of the same name, but I think I've now expanded so that if you search up the two cities you'll get mine. But, yeah, that's where it can be found YouTube, podomatic, itunes, these various platforms. I have audio versions. I also have a locals channel where I release more content. It's been a bit quiet recently, but I'm going to be producing more on traditionalist economics, which I think, again, is another part of our another domain of the laity to look at, and it's been a real pleasure to be with you, gents, and thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 1:13:16

Perhaps in the future we can talk a little bit. I'd like to hear from you some of the encouraging ventures and initiatives that you've seen in the US with regards to, and initiatives that you've seen in the US with regards to lay institutions, lay efforts. I'm aware of some of those. You mentioned some of those as well, but that was something I put at the end of my essay is that I'm open to a conversation with anybody who is thinking along these lines. I think, as you say, more and more people are thinking along these lines. They're not investing their hopes and dreams within the liberal system, but they're thinking of Catholic solutions. So if people have instances of that where we can share ideas and we can, you know, draw on the best practice, then please do get in touch.

Speaker 1: 1:13:59

Yeah, well, just to touch on that for a second. Will Tucker goes to the same parish as my cousin, my cousin's from new york. He said his entire parish is made up of transplants from around america. They all moved to kentucky so they became a family, that parish. They don't have other family where they live, so that parish is the family. So enoch, who met my cousin because he was on my channel for trivia one day my cousin's wife recognized him from being on my channel he's now my cousin's child's godfather. They go to the same parish and they've built a family in the truest sense, a spiritual family, because they're not genetically family and they've all transplanted from around the country and they've created this family down there and my cousin's now farming and he's it's. It really is, oh it. There are ways to do it. You just have to have the courage to be the first one to go, like my cousin was, and hopefully one day I'm able to follow in his footsteps and maybe I'll go down and I'll join their little family down there.

Speaker 3: 1:15:03

So you're never making it kentucky. You don't like bourbon.

Speaker 1: 1:15:07

That is true, Theo. Thank you so much, man. We'll do this again. Yeah, everybody, go check out the Two Cities podcast and, if you want, listen to his if you want. If you've never seen his channel, start with his little way of Christendom. It is a short, 23 minute video, but it's very, very enlightening and kind of touches on all the subjects we did today. There may be some stuff we didn't even have a chance to get to. So, uh, thank you, Theo, and we'll see you soon. Thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:15:33

Anthony, thank you.