Avoiding Babylon
Avoiding Babylon was started during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. During these difficult and dark days, when most of us were isolated from family, friends, our parishes, and even the Sacraments themselves, this channel was started as a statement of standing against the tyrannical mandates that many of us were living under. Since those early days, this channel has morphed into an amazing community of friends…no…more than friends…Christian brothers and sisters…who have grown in joy and charity.
As we see it, our job here at Avoiding Babylon is to remind ourselves and those who enjoy the channel that being Catholic is a joyful and exciting experience. We seek true Catholic fraternity and eutrapelia with other Catholics who, like us, are doing their best to live out their vocation with the help of God’s Grace. Above all, we try to bring humor and joy to the craziness of this fallen world, for as Hillaire Belloc has famously said:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”
Avoiding Babylon
Scott Hahn Refutes Catholic Zionism in Awkward Exchange (Full LOCALS Version)
This episode is only available to subscribers.
Avoiding Babylon +
Access to the FULL show on audio!A family crisis set the tone for what became one of our most candid episodes: real need, real gratitude, and then a turn into real theology. After updating you on a fundraiser to replace a destroyed boiler after last year’s flood, we unpack the awkward Ashenden–Hahn exchange that tried to police arguments about Israel by branding them “anti-Semitic.” Scott Hahn refuses the trap. He draws a bright line between rejecting hatred of the Jewish people and critiquing Zionism as a supposed fulfillment of prophecy.
We walk through Hahn’s core points from Romans 9–11: the gifts and call are irrevocable, but the old covenant is fulfilled in Christ, not paralleled alongside Him. Bi-covenantalism fails. His “burning house” image makes it vivid—remaining in the old covenant apart from Christ leaves you in danger, not safety. Then comes the crucial historical-theological piece: Judaism after 70 A.D. becomes rabbinic/synagogue Judaism; its center is not the Temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. The Catholic Church, by contrast, safeguards what the Temple prefigured—presence, priesthood, altar, and sacrifice in the Mass. Hahn even notes the structural echo between synagogue liturgy and much of Protestant worship.
We also examine contemporary rhetoric about “Rome” and the patristic idea of the Katechon, the restrainer of Antichrist often identified with Rome/Christendom. We’re not predicting timelines, but we are urging literacy. When theology turns to mush, propaganda thrives. When Catholics conflate charity with flattery, they bless error. The antidote is simple and hard: love the Jewish people, refuse every form of contempt, and tell the truth that salvation flows from Christ and His Church.
It all lands back on the ground: help families in need, form young men with honesty, and stop outsourcing courage. If this conversation sharpened your thinking, share it with a friend. If you haven’t yet, tap follow, leave a review to help others find the show, and tell us: where do you land on Romans 9–11 and the Zionism question?
Take advantage of great Catholic red wines by heading over to https://recusantcellars.com/ and using code "BASED" for 10% off at checkout!
********************************************************
Please subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKsxnv80ByFV4OGvt_kImjQ?sub_confirmation=1
https://www.avoidingbabylon.com
Merchandise: https://avoiding-babylon-shop.fourthwall.com
Locals Community: https://avoidingbabylon.locals.com
Full Premium/Locals Shows on Audio Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1987412/subscribe
RSS Feed for Podcast Apps: https://feeds.buzzsprout.com/1987412.rss
Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/AvoidingBabylon
Went old school for that intro. Yeah, we did. Tappy's intros, they were just so bombastic. Cancellation level bombastic this time. Maybe we'll do them for uh that'll be a good locals teaser.
SPEAKER_12:Like Tappy's videos are I don't know if we should play them for locals, man.
SPEAKER_11:They're pretty bad. I don't know. I think we can do it for the locals audience. We'll do them for the locals audience. But um uh a little update before we get into the topic at hand. Um well well, just to touch on the topic real quick. Um, I wanna I wanna I wanna handle this properly tonight because I know the thumbnail seems like we're we're gonna like go after Gavin or something. That's not what I want to do. I want to go through those videos. I cut a I cut a few clips up, and I wanna really get for the record.
SPEAKER_12:Anthony is talking about a recent interview between Gavin Ashaden and Scott Hahn.
SPEAKER_11:Well, for those of you who are not online all the time, well, no, well, the thumbnail and title I figured handled that. So that that's what we're going to go through tonight. But um, I do want to give you guys a little update on the uh so okay, so yesterday I was at work and we had to put a fundraiser together for a guy I work with who has been out of work for six weeks. And um, and we passed it around the company, and we just like all the guys at the company just threw a little something to the guy because he's been out of work for six weeks. He he had he had an injury outside of work and he hasn't been able to work for six weeks. And while I was making it, something just kind of hit me about uh something that's been weighing on my heart for a very long time, uh, that my brother is going through. And my my brother in the summer of 2024, so it's a year, a year of uh a year plus. Uh, there was a really bad, like hundred-year flood that hit Long Island. I was in Pennsylvania when it happened, and when I came home, my brother's house was completely flooded, the whole basement, and like six inches of the first floor, and it destroyed his oil burner.
SPEAKER_12:He uh boiler for those boiler, yeah.
SPEAKER_11:It's I mean, yeah, like his gas, his oil burner, uh boiler furnace. Um, and he had a company come in and look at it, and they were like, Oh, we think we can fix it and give us three grand and we'll fix it. He gave the guys three grand, and the thing lasted for two weeks and it burst again. And now this was in Nov. This is it happened in uh August, right as the winter was coming, my brother's furnace went out, and he had space heaters in every single bedroom, and he can't he has no hot water, so his wife and kids would have to go to my mom's house to shower, or when he he could turn the hot water heater on, but it would pour water into the basement. So they he had to be home when it happened, and he had to have a pump running as he did it. So when he comes home from work, he'll turn it on and he'll leave the pump running and he'll take a quick shower and then come down. But it's been a been a legit nightmare for him for a year. My brother, uh, this is the this is the brother that I've told the story on air. Um, me and him together got our girlfriends pregnant when we were, I know I was 21 and he was 19. Had to go and tell my parents together that we got our girlfriends pregnant. My wife now, like this isn't like you know, for anybody that doesn't know the story. This is now my wife, and this is my oldest son. We're talking about this was 19 years ago. Uh, but yeah, like it just happened, it was just like a coincidence. Like, we both got our girlfriends pregnant, like the same week, and we had to go to my parents together and tell my parents that we were pregnant. We we were pregnant, our girlfriends were pregnant. Um now my dad was furious. He's like, What did you do? Plan this, like he flipped out, he went nuts. What'd you do, assholes? Plan this is what he said. Um, uh, but the thing is, my parents knew Nicole and I were going to get married, and they were very worried about Mikey. And like from that, from from that moment, like it's always been like this kind of like thing where I don't know, my brothers had it really hard, you know, and like everybody seemed to be like excited for me and my wife, and everybody was kind of like worried about him, you know. This is the same brother that fell into heroin addiction. He's 18 months younger than me. I mean, he's like my he's like my Irish twin. And um, like him and I were best friends growing up, and then he falls into heroin addiction every day of my life for like five years. I was waiting for a phone call to tell me that my brother died. Five years ago, my brother got clean, and but that messy mate in those five years.
SPEAKER_12:Was this the same? Um the the our last episode, you talked about how you know your your family almost ostracized someone, but your mom, yeah, the door open. This is him, right?
SPEAKER_11:Absolutely, yeah. So, like this period where my brother was addicted to heroin, all of us, like all the men in the help in the family, especially, were like, cut him off, stop, you're enabling him. My mom left this door open to him, and he five years ago he gets himself clean. He's been clean for five years, he hasn't had a single slip up. This kid has been killing himself to get his life in order. While he was using his house, fell into foreclosure. He accrued a ton of debt. He wound up after he gets clean, he goes into bankruptcy, but is able to save his home and put all his credit cards, all everything on the on the he's got to come up with like six grand a month to pay off this bankruptcy with his mortgage. Then he's got all these other things, but he's killing himself at work six days a week for five years now. And then last year, this this stupid furnace thing happens. Like three months later, his car dies on him. So now for the past year, my brother's been carpooling to work with me, or my brother Dom, or my brother Joey, or my brother uh Frankie, he's been catching a ride into work every day. He doesn't like he he he just is underwater, like feels like he's drowning. And I've I've never wanted to use this platform for like fundraisers and things like that. And and Rob has known about this situation for a very long time. I've been talking to Rob about this, and when I put this fundraiser together for the guy at work, I just kind of said to Rob, I was like, Rob, I have like the winter is here. The winter's here. Like, I I went I woke up and went to work the other morning, and it was 32 degrees in New York, and I'm like, this has space heaters in every room in his house. Like, that is the like leading cause of home fires. He doesn't have hot water in his home for his kids to take a freaking bath at the end of the day. And I just finally just said to Rob, I said, I think I'm going to put a fundraiser together for my brother. I put a fundraiser together and I kind of just guessed because I I had to do a uh uh my burner went and I did a gas conversion, it cost 10 grand. So I put a fundraiser together for yeah, and he has three little kids also, um, all under the age of 12. Like he's got little kids. Um, so I um I I had to do my my burner a couple of years back and it was 10 grand. So I put the fundraiser up and I just put 10 grand in. And I did this yesterday afternoon, and I'm like, okay, maybe this will take a week or two and we'll get there. You know, we'll mention it on the show. I went to bed last night and it hit 10,000 while I went to bed last night. So I woke up this morning and it was it's it's actually at 11 now. 11 too. Yeah, my brother still has no idea I'm doing this, and he doesn't watch the show, so I'm not worried about him seeing this. Um, so I uh he worked late tonight, and I had a guy from the HVAC guy come and meet me at his house. And we knocked I knocked on his door, his wife, his wife answers the door, and I was just like, Oh, I just had my friend come in a look at the burner real quick. He might, you know, to see if he could fix it or something. The estimates for$18,000. Man, that's$18,000. So I'm uh so I I I might have to raise the the the the number on the fundraiser. Um, but I'm also getting other estimates because the the company I picked was a big company, and big companies throw big numbers at you. So I call three other places. I'm getting I'm getting three other estimates on this. I do have uh my like my uncle. I work for my uncle. I know if that's if like we're short or grand or two or something. I know if I go to him and tell him he'll he'll foot the rest of it. But if you guys haven't had a chance, no, this is not for the boat. I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever ask for money for my boat repair. Pewdy got that fixed, by the way. I would never ever do that. Um, the thing is, I was thinking, like, all right, we got 11 grand. If it comes to nine, what I'll do is I'll either I'll fill the oil tank for him, right? Like, we'll fill it with oil, and maybe we could put something towards the a car.
SPEAKER_12:Because I don't know what heating oil costs for you guys is there, but a tank here is like seven, eight hundred bucks, right?
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, to fill the tank. It's not it's like three bucks a gallon, it's a 300-gallon tank, it's like 900 bucks. So I figured if there was anything left over, we would just fill the tank with that. Um, or if there's more than that, if we could just sell the boat for if it came to that, I would do that for him. Um the what I just want to I want to help him. Like, this is not this is not just some um we're all worried about like what we could donate to today because you don't know what the church is giving money to. Like, when I tell you when like I cannot wait to film telling him that I'm that we're getting this done for him. My brother is going to weep with joy because this is been you guys have never seen in a body weep. Yeah, it's it's a lot. So Rob's gonna throw the link up. Uh, like we're I'm probably about six thousand down, even though it says I hit my goal, we're we're a ways off from right now.
SPEAKER_12:We're at eleven thousand. We'll just say right now the goal's eighteen thousand. So we'll just say it's that.
SPEAKER_11:If it's a little short, I'll I'll go to my uncle and I'll ask him to cover it. If there's extra, if if I wind up getting a second price and they tell me 15 or something, whatever's left is going to go towards like a beater car for him to get to where like I'm not keeping a dollar of this. I would never ever ask you guys for money and then scam it somehow. Like, I'm so like I'm I do not play games with money, I will never face God for stealing, ever, ever. Like, you could ask Rob how I am with money. Like, I do not ever play games with that stuff. It's like if if something like if Rob has an expense that I that I didn't have, I'm like, dude, we'll split it. Like, we always are honest with one another with money. I don't ask you guys for something that is out of line ever. And my brother means the world to me, and I want to really try and help this kid. So if you guys could find it in your hearts to give a little bit, I would appreciate it. And I will give you guys an update and I will film it.
SPEAKER_12:So uh now to the subject at hand, and the link is in both the live chat and the description for anyone.
SPEAKER_11:Um, to to the subject at hand. Um, if you guys come on pilgrimage, you'll be able to see an a body weep in person. Uh I was I was shocked by the price. I'm gonna be honest. Like, I really was when the guy told me 18, I was like, Oh my goodness, like, oh man, it was probably getting kicked in the stomach. And because I I was like hoping the guy would tell me whether it was within that range, and my brother, I was gonna be able to like talk to my brother today about it, and and I'm just I was like so sad when that happened. So we're gonna see what we could do. Like I said, if if if I don't hit the goal, there is somewhere I can go where I can ask somebody to kick in the rest. I'll throw in money myself, whatever we have to do, we're gonna get it done. But to everybody that donated, like, there are some people that donated a thousand dollars, more than one person donated a thousand dollars and they did it anonymously. Like, when you talk about building treasure in heaven, I'm like, I'm there first off, every one of you like I want you to put your names in it, especially if you watch the show or you know me on Twitter. Like, I want you to put your names in it because I want to thank you. Like, but those but some of those people that did something like that, um, I was just like, holy cow, man, for somebody to throw a thousand in and just do it anonymously. It's it's really unbelievable. So, thank you all to anybody that did donate to this. It's really uh they're going to be buying and installing a new boiler, brand new boiler, and new oil tanks, oil tanks leaking, like the whole thing is destroyed. This is just the HVAC stuff, let alone damage to the rest of the house. Well, that's the thing, his entire basement was flooded, and the first floor, like four inches with flood. So people were saying, like, why can't the family come together? Like, we have we had to he didn't like he the insurance covered none of it because it was a natural disaster, they didn't cover a dollar. Yeah, New York was supposed to put like FEMA was gonna put a program together for New Yorkers that were affected by this. Kathy Hokel canceled the program. There was no way for him to like apply for anything, nothing. His neighbor had 140,000 in damage done to his house. His neighbor literally gutted his entire house and redid it. We had to do everything we could by hand and we had to do the work ourselves and stuff. Like, we we believe me, we all hunt my whole family. None of my family's wealthy, except like my uncle who I work for, but none of my civil like we all work construction, we're all barely making ends meet. We all do the best we can to get by in this life. It's like my parents aren't wealthy, my dad's on a fixed income, he's a retired construction worker. So we do we have done everything we can. I just asked for help, which I've I tried to really not do, and I try not to ever abuse this platform that God has given me. So, all right, I apologize for this drawn-out family story. In the last five minutes, they've just donated a thousand dollars. I guys, thank you so much, man. I appreciate all of you. Um, okay, so now to to the topic at hand. Um the I so I uh I consider Gavin a friend. Um, and I've been on our show twice. Yeah, he's been on our show twice. Um I we played a clip of him the other night, and I might have been like a little callous about the way I played it. Um and there's always people that like watch things and go and rat you out and stuff, but like I I was just kind of using him to to kind of show like what what the older generation is like how they're reacting to this whole thing, this whole question of anti-Semitism and stuff. So now Gavin had Scott Hahn on his show, and it was an amazing episode. So if you guys haven't seen it, you should go watch it. But at about the 50-minute mark, it felt like Gavin was shoehorning in the topic of anti-Semitism. And I thought Scott Hahn handled it masterfully. Uh, but it was very awkward the way Gavin pressed the issue. And I I wanted to go through the clips with you guys because it just seemed very off to me, very awkward, and and even the way Scott replies to him, it's almost like he like Gavin goes to bring something up, and Scott doesn't actually engage what Gavin's saying, and Scott really brings it to what the what the actual issue is and what we've been talking about on this show for a very long time. And when when I saw the title of that show, uh Gavin Ashenden, when I saw the title of that show, I was like very intrigued because I'm saying I have been watching and reading Scott Hahn for 20 years, and I learned all of my theology about the older brother from Scott Hahn. And I'm saying, I it like I was really curious to see where he went with this because I couldn't imagine Scott just going in and ranting about anti-Semitism, like I just couldn't, because he's the one who kind of prepared me for the things that we're seeing right now. So I think we should just start in with clip one, and you guys will kind of understand where I'm going with this.
SPEAKER_12:First clip, first clip.
SPEAKER_11:Let's go, let's play it. And uh, we might be pausing from here from time to time because this is pretty heavy topics, and some of the clips are four minutes long.
SPEAKER_12:So the first clip is seven seconds. Oh, is that the wrong clip then? All right, or properly.
SPEAKER_11:How long is the second clip?
SPEAKER_12:320.
SPEAKER_11:Hmm.
SPEAKER_12:Because we're having a problem with um we usually do the clips through through Twitter, but that's not working right now, so we're having to do it. Oh, you know what? It was it is it was totally weird. Yeah.
SPEAKER_11:Okay, okay, good. Then okay, so yeah, so use like Twitter, the way they change their DMs is screwing up our whole show show uh chat. So we have like a show chat on Twitter and it's not working out. So we're gonna do it through Telegram. So we gotta start from there. So all right, make sure you rewind it.
SPEAKER_04:I did, I just gotta make sure the volume's up. But but not rejected, if one might might say it. It was gonna grafted now in the um anti-Semitism, it's always seemed to me is is a is a phenomenon of of demonic toxicity. I suppose that's might be the best way of describing the way I see it. And again, I don't want to put words or concepts into your mouth, but it it seems to me we're struggling with, if you like, uh issues of demonic hatred and and theological frameworks that could and should act as antidotes to them. And I wondered if you could offer either anything that you you see in St. Paul or the Magisterium uh as a form of theological antidote to this idea that we can we can so begin to separate ourselves from the Jews that we're entitled to despise them or uh accuse them of things. I was one of your a great American comedian, um Islam said that that you know nothing nothing good ever comes from putting two words in the English language together, and it's the words the and Jews. Dave Chantel, that's too much. Okay, I was gonna say we gotta stop that.
SPEAKER_12:We gotta stop there.
SPEAKER_11:Okay, so so what was really interesting about this was we did the show the day before where we discussed Scott Hahn at Steubenville, and then we played the Gavin clip. And the next day, Gavin had an interview with Scott Hahn, and and Scott Hahn doesn't just do interviews on the fly, so I'm pretty sure they had the the ask us how he knows that. Oh, yes. No, but I know I know people that know Scott Hahn, and it's like he's booked out for a while, so but I do think Gavin saw our show the night before and decided to shoehorn this topic in because of it. And the nervousness with which he's asking this question and the Dave Chantel instead of Dave Chappelle is is awkward, right? Like you can see, he's very nervous as he's talking about this. Now, you know, Gavin has never seen Dave Chappelle. Where Gavin is getting that quote from is the is the Rodre article, yes, because Gavin, you would be so terribly offended if you watched Dave Chappelle. Yeah, like so Gavin is getting that, he's getting that from the Rodre article, which is what we discussed on our show the night before. And it what we were trying to do in that show is just like the generational divide on this issue that they just they don't grasp how the severity of it. So I wanted to play that clip just to show how nervous Gavin is even setting this up. But let's continue, let's see where this one ends. And then the next one is actually Scott's response to it. Catholic Jamie's not doing great.
SPEAKER_12:Oh, did I not play it? Oh my god. I was I was playing it and listening to it. I didn't realize it wasn't a channel.
SPEAKER_11:Catholic Jamie's listening to a show all on his own.
SPEAKER_12:I'm this is I'm not liking this setup. Hold on.
SPEAKER_11:The telegram. Well, you gotta add it to the screen, first off. It's not added.
SPEAKER_12:Yeah, I know, I know. I'm finding the right spot. Sorry, guys. Yeah, speaking of boomers, I know. Yeah, yeah. Nick would have played it faster, yeah. He too wasn't too busy. Never mind.
SPEAKER_04:There's two words together. But with that that in mind, can I can I ask you to to take us on a theological journey in terms of beginning with St. Paul?
SPEAKER_11:Okay, so okay, so now I the I cut it there, and then the next clip is Scott's response. So now now what he's asking him about is Romans 9 through 11. Okay, now Scott Hahn on the St. Paul Center website has a four-hour presentation that he's speak where he's speaking to priests about Romans 9, 10, and 11. Okay, it is the most controversial of Saint Paul's uh letters. This one, these three chapters where he gets into all Israel will be saved. Now, I have listened to these talks several times. This is not lightweight theology, it is very deep, where he's talking about when Paul says, Will all Israel be saved? Is he talking about ethnic Israel? Is he talking about spiritual Israel? He's actually kind of talking about both, but the reason he's talking about both is because the northern kingdom is split in the old testament, where the 10 northern tribes break off, and those 10 northern tribes get dispersed throughout the nations, and they get mixed in with the gentiles so much that the ethnic Israel that is dispersed through the nations become Gentiles. So when the new covenant begins by the Gentile nations converting, all Israel is saved. Ethnic Israel, the remnant that is preserved amongst the nations. Okay, so that is what Saint Paul is talking about that the 12 tribes of Israel are reunited by the new covenant, going out to the nations.
SPEAKER_12:So it's a very, I mean, I'm summing up four hours of talk into a very, you know, I honestly would not have been surprised if this had turned into Anthony Abati's far four-hour summary of Scott Hahn's four-hour talk.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, later on the trying through 11. I'm trying to, I'm trying to summarize a very dense topic into Thursday.
SPEAKER_12:We did three hours on uh on Daniel's series, yeah, based on Han's three-hour job.
SPEAKER_11:Yes, but I think we did it more exciting. Um, but it's it's it's one of those talks where when I heard it the first time, like my mind was so blown because you hear all the time, yeah. What do you think the video was about the other day, guys? That was trying to convince everyone. You hear all the time the Protestants talking about like, where's the lost tribes of Israel? Are they in Africa? Are they here? Are they there? It's like, no, they were they were dispersed throughout the nation.
SPEAKER_12:So that well, unless you're Joseph Smith and you think that the lost one is here in America.
SPEAKER_11:That's but that's how crazy it gets amongst Protestants, right? So, all right, so now let's jump to the next video. And the next video is Scott's response to Gavin asking him to unpack Romans 9, 10, and 11 and address the issue of anti-Semitism because Gavin feels that the um that there's this rising hatred for Jews, right? So let's let's see what get what uh Scott says. And I kind of I kind of clipped a little bit because Scott kind of goes into explaining all the books and talks he's done on this topic, and then I kind of try to get to the substance of what he says. I don't know why it's so small.
SPEAKER_12:I mean, I got it, don't worry.
SPEAKER_08:What demonic in its inspiration, we've also got to be very careful about labeling people anti-Semites, because on the other side of the spectrum, we have to recognize that to be a Catholic Christian, to be a New Testament Christian, does not in any way cause you to embrace Zionism as the fulfillment of prophecy.
SPEAKER_11:And so if somebody speaks out against a Zionist political agenda, uh with whatever consequences now, I want you to so okay, so what what's what I clipped out I should have left in was Scott saying to Gavin, affirming Gavin, in that there is no place for us to have anti-Semitism, like St. St. Pope Pius XI said, we are all spiritually Semites, right? Anti-Semitism in the actual sense of believing the Jewish people are less human, less dignified, yeah, or like actual hatred for somebody based on you know that like that's what he means by anti-Semitism, but he almost doesn't entertain what Gavin says, and he says, But I want to get to the more important point that we can't just be labeling somebody anti-Semitic if they're criticizing Zionism, because as a Catholic, there's no justification to support Zionism as a fulfillment of any kind of wait, you could put that part out. No, no, no, he said okay. So you can back up a little bit if you want. I just wanted to give like the preamble that he was saying because he does say like there's no place for anti-Semitism, and I don't want to seem like I'm I'm editing without giving context, but what but also watch how Gavin jumps in as Scott is saying this, as like Gavin jumps in very nervously as Scott is saying this stuff, and that's kind of what threw me off on this back to Gaza or missile strikes and so on and so forth.
SPEAKER_08:I'm just really cautious about even taking one step into the political arena.
SPEAKER_04:Uh because I add one extra area. I mean, thank you so much for saying that. I think it was absolutely essential to be said, and you've said it. There's another step which which you may not have come across, but I've been really surprised at, and that is the the area of Catholic Holocaust denial, where the notion comes that uh the figures are exaggerated, the the deaths are exaggerated, but they're exaggerated by quote the Jews themselves in order to ratchet up sympathy for Zionism. And and and that and added to this, and then this is insidious argument from silence, that the Talmud has been filled with Gavin is about to defend the Talmud.
SPEAKER_02:And I don't understand this.
SPEAKER_12:I I yeah I don't either because the Talmud enters Judaism or long after like Christianity existed. Like what there is no reason to defend the Talmud from a Christian perspective.
SPEAKER_11:It's a strange thing that he's doing here, right? And he's saying people that even question the narrative of the Holocaust, they eat and they say that the numbers were inflated by the Jews to justify Zionism. Like I don't I don't know, man. I I think that you have to take into account the amount of narratives that have collapsed over the past several years, specifically, especially after everybody dealing with COVID, where they fed us a narrative and we all saw it was complete nonsense. Then you start going back and you say, What else did they lie to me about? So people start questioning the 9-11 narrative, and you see that the 9-11 narrative was very much used as a as a as a way to get us into war, right? So you're like, Okay, well, these narratives are clearly being used to justify things. So, yes, people are starting to say, Okay, wait, what else did they lie to us about? Now, this is not evil. I'm sorry, like to to label people as evil for being for honest inquiry into things is just wrong. And why is this the only area of history that that like we can't have a discussion on, you know, like like people have a discussion whether Genghis Khan was was evil or not, or whether what he did actually helped Europe and in Asia, or or or or how many women he raped because 34% of the world population is somehow related to him by DNA. And no, I'm just I don't know their action.
SPEAKER_12:No, no, you're right, though. I mean, every we can have a discussion from either side on any topic in all of history, except for this one for some reason.
SPEAKER_11:And my my point on that is the people that are making that accusation that Gavin is right now are actually hurting the argument on their part because you're you're making it seem like there's something there that we're not allowed to look into. That's and and that's a danger that that you guys are getting into.
SPEAKER_12:So um so now he goes if the evidence is so overwhelming, then then it should be an easy argument to actually have in discussion and improve your argument. Well, when you just shut down the conversation and don't allow any discussion on it, it it comes off as why why are you doing that?
SPEAKER_11:So now look, like I because it's difficult for us to do shows like this where you know we're putting Gavin and Scott Hahn in the thumbnail, and people are just going to think we're doing gossip, but this is a Very serious topic, and I'm kind of caught in between these two generations, and I respect a lot of these people. Like, I genuinely like Gavin, and I would love to have him on to have a conversation on this topic.
SPEAKER_12:One of our funnest conversations on this whole show was talking with Gavin about how we smuggled Bibles through the KGB.
SPEAKER_11:You know, I mean, it's it's it's it's just we're when I've been telling you guys of that for the past year, I've been saying to you guys this is going to be the divide in the church. We're talking about losing friendships here because we take a different opinion on this topic. Like, this is where the divide is. I'm telling you guys, and it's going to get more and more stark. We're going to after we play these clips, we're going to get into a tweet that Joshua Charles put out of Benjamin Netanyahu referring to Rome and the next war with Rome that they're going to win. We're also going to play a clip of him saying how he thinks America is the new Rome, which is something I've been saying for a very long time. Um, and it's just you're going to see this issue is going to become more and more prominent, and this is going to be the divide in the church. It is not going to be so much over liturgy and things like that, it's going to be on this issue, and this issue has to be understood properly. And I think that Scott Hahn handled this entire conversation properly. And I'm just telling you guys, from sitting at this man's feet for this as many years as I have, I don't, I've never had a conversation with him, but I can tell you that from the things I've learned from him, he would say that because Israel was the woman that was the whore in the uh of Babylon in the first century. Typologically, it will map up that they will be the whore in the second coming. Like it's just typologically how it is fulfilled. I know how Scott's brain works. I'm he probably would never say that, but I can tell you he was very cautious in this conversation not to say what Gavin was trying to lead him to say. Gavin kept trying to lead him to say things, and Scott refused to go where Gavin wanted him to. So we'll finish up with Gavin getting into the Talmud stuff, where he explains this Holocaust denial, then he defends the Talmud. Just watch how Scott reacts. Okay. And and and and just understand that this is not me saying it. This is not, I'm telling you, watch how Scott reacts and kind of just diffuses what Gavin just said to get into what he sees as a more a bigger danger than anti-Semitism or people like what Scott sees as a bigger danger than what Gavin is bringing up because Gavin sees anti-Semitism as the biggest danger. And what you're gonna hear is Scott tell you, no, actually, the bigger danger is Zionism and thinking that there's a bi-covenantal theology.
SPEAKER_12:Okay, so let's and I I haven't seen all the all the clips or all this, but I I imagine like theologically, you're right, that that is the the bigger danger, the bigger danger in theology is ultimately more important than some questions about a uh you know a historical event. Theology can be dogmatic. Listen to me, when you have the faith, a historical event will never be dogmatic.
SPEAKER_11:When I tell you how I'm I want to like, I'm gonna lead you guys into where this is going to go. Like, Scott gets into the the the claims that that John Paul II says about the covenant is irrevocable. Scott talks about, yeah, if you're in the old covenant and you have not accepted Christ, you are in a burning house. He gets into Gavin, then tries to. I'm we're gonna go through all of it, but Gavin then tries to lead him um to to say, like, how he has such a deep reverence for the for the Jews because of the old because of the what the gifts they've given to the church. And and Scott says, no, no, no, there's a disconnect between the modern Judaism and and the people and the old covenant. There's a disconnect there, and he relates the synagogue to Protestantism. Like, there's so much in this. I'm telling you guys, if you really actually listen to what Scott says, and look, Scott is the is going to be super cordial in the things he says, and he's going, of course, agree with Gavin that yes, these are a danger, but I'm trying to I'm trying to subtly show you what the real danger is here.
SPEAKER_12:So you want me to play, or you want to talk about it? Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, we'll read this anti-Christian vitriol, sorry, anti-Christ vitriol. And if only you knew it, you would know that the the rabbinic Judaism has filled the secret books which you've never read with this this horrible blasphemous anti-Christ stuff. And so they are still, therefore, the antichrist blasphemers, and we must react to them accordingly. This is the kind of dark end that that's been. How is that the dark end when it's the literal truth, though? Anyway, beginning to emerge uh out of Catholic theology. And so um thank you, first of all, for saying what you said about Zionism. That has to be said. But it seems to me that that that in the way I've described it, which I which is accurate, there is another insidious end too, which has which uh feeds off Holocaust denial and misrepresentation. It turns out these Talmudic texts are not at all what they've said, but they are in fact rather fringe cul-de-sacs of theological ambiguity that have been blown up by the anti-Semites in order to uh almost like the blood libel myth, they're beat they're eating your children again, only it's a it's a kind of an in an ideological exaggeration rather than a than a social one. But it but the intention is the same.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, so I must admit to being almost entirely and blissfully ignorant of much of what you have just uh rightly identified as highly problematic.
SPEAKER_11:Um other thing Gavin goes through this whole diatribe about the not like Holocaust denial, and then he defends the town, and Scott goes, Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. That's literally what Scott on just said. He went, Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. But let me tell you about what's more important, and he's about to tell you what's more important than all the stuff Gavin just said.
SPEAKER_12:To me, his response is is one of two things it's either him in the most politest way possible telling Gavin purposefully, like what you what you brought up really is whatever, it's it's you know, it's not a problem, really, or he's he really is ignorant of it, which shows that it's really not a widespread problem because he's completely ignorant of it, because he's not on Twitter, because Scott's not on Twitter, but I don't think he's ignorant of it.
SPEAKER_11:I think Scott is deflecting answering, like engaging in this, and I want you to go back a couple of seconds to to really see what Scott does here because he he goes, Well, you've rightly identified because Scott is going to be cordial with with Gavin and Gavin. Like, if you do come across this and you watch this, like understand I'm not attacking you in any way, I'm trying to show you, like, because you you revere Scott Hahn as as I do, and I'm telling you what I've learned at this man's feet, and that's kind of the thing we've been talking about on this show, is is that this is that we are coming up on something that is very important, and Catholics need to understand the proper perspective on this, and never does that involve hatred of Jewish people because they are Jewish, never, but you do need to understand the the the deception that is going to come upon us, and when you see Catholics supporting Zionism, that is a deception, and they are going to try and trick look, it's going to be the Jews accept the Antichrist, and it's going to be droves of heretics. You cannot be unaware of the dangers of this situation. So back up a tiny bit just to see how Scott's kind of just like, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_08:Blissfully ignorant of much of what you have just uh rightly identified as highly problematic. Um, one other thing that which should we should identify on the spectrum too as really not a viable option for us as Catholics is a very popular position that goes under a a variety of labels, but I I know it as bicovenantalism.
SPEAKER_11:Okay, so just okay, so now this is what Scott Hahn is going to say. So Gavin goes through this whole diatribe about the the the dangers of Holocaust denial and and the dangers of of misrepresenting the the Talmud. And Scott's like, yeah, that that's pretty bad. But can I tell you what's actually a danger? And that's actually the the idea that there's a bicovenantal way to salvation, and that the Jews can stay Jews and be saved because they're under the old covenant and Catholics, the Gentiles are under a new covenant. That is the danger.
SPEAKER_12:That is the attitude. That is the danger to the the soul of every Jew, right?
SPEAKER_11:I'm not, I'm not this is funny. This is this is funny, but no actually, Gavin, I'm a bit of an anti-sea mite myself.
SPEAKER_12:No, that's at the end of the interview.
SPEAKER_11:Scott just goes in, may Saint Simon of Trent pray for us. But the blood libel thing, like that sign, we had a saint in the canon, like this is not, you know, and it's look, I don't he he actually did not make it to the organization, but yeah, listen, listen. Um the the thing is Scott's our guy. That's all I'm gonna tell you. Scott's our guy, like the the Philos project ain't getting him. He's our guy, I'm telling you. And I I had faith in him when I saw the title of this interview. I had faith that Scott Hahn was not going to give in to the pressure because I've been I've been his he's he's he's been a spiritual father to me. So, you know, I know he's a little soft on certain things we wish he would be a little hard, but I know he's right on his theology on this topic.
SPEAKER_08:And there are again a wide spectrum of various shades of this particular view, but I would say that's exactly what Paul is not arguing in Romans 9 to 11. Um, and so to say that you know you can be saved by the old covenant, um, because the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, uh yeah, God does not revoke a covenant, uh, he fulfills it by becoming man, and that's the whole point. But if you're going to be in the old covenant apart from Christ, who bore the curses for the brokenness of the old covenant, it's like being in a big house, a stately mansion that's on fire. So if you're in the old covenant apart from Christ, you're not gone because you don't want to get hold on.
SPEAKER_12:Well, I I gotta replay that real quick.
SPEAKER_11:Yes, you need to replay that. If you are in the old covenant and do not allow Christ to take upon him the curses of the old covenant for disobedience, you are in a mansion that is on fire, you are in a burning house. Like this is think think about listen to me. I'm not I'm not making some I'm not making a bigger thing of this than I think. Like Gavin, Gavin brings a topic that he wants Scott Hahn to agree with him on, and Scott brushes him off.
SPEAKER_12:Uh to give Gavin credit, there I think it was more he brought someone he in his mind truly thought definitely agreed with him on, and had no idea that anyone like Scott Hahn would disagree with him on this.
SPEAKER_11:And it but but I when I watched this interview, I was just like, Whoa, what and I think a lot of people would have watched this and not caught the subtlety of what happened there, like that because I I read the comments in Gavin's show, and it was like two brilliant minds talking. I'm like, you you guys aren't people really aren't seeing what's happening here. That that Gavin's trying to talk about one thing, and Scott's like, No, no, no, there's something more important here that we have to discuss, and no one was even talking about it on Twitter until they all stole the clip I put out. Yeah, right. But the funny thing is, nobody watched this interview.
SPEAKER_12:No, I no, I only nobody watched the I got that clip because you told me about it and I went to look for it.
SPEAKER_11:I called like 10 people and I'm like, you have to watch this interview, start it at 50 minutes, start it right because the whole first 50 minutes is very good stuff, but like the this stuff starts at about the 51 minute mark, and I was like, What am I watching right now? This is wild. So let's keep going. Because and and the other clips I picked, when I tell you like the the depth that Scott goes into with some of this stuff is unbelievable.
SPEAKER_08:And that's the whole point. But if you're going to be in the old covenant apart from Christ, who bore the curses for the brokenness of the old covenant, it's like being in a big house, a stately mansion that's on fire. So if you're in the old covenant apart from Christ, you are in a crisis because you don't want to get out of the old into the new by simply abolishing the old, but by seeing how Christ in his own body died and he rose again. And so the transformative fulfillment by Christ of the old in the new is rightly characterized by the Greek term metamorphoshi, where we get metamorphosis. So, I mean, just to use a banal analogy, the butterfly.
SPEAKER_11:Okay, now um because I see people saying so much for not talking about the Jews again. Like, guys, I'm sorry, this is important. Like, this is this is this is huge, especially for people to see it coming from a guy like Scott Hahn because he doesn't it it's not coming from Nick Fuentes, it's not coming from Father Maudsley, it's coming from somebody very respected in in mainstream Catholicism that a lot of people have learned their Catholic faith from. Like this stuff is very important. I'm not I'm not trying to troll and talk about the JQ and groyperism, none of that.
SPEAKER_12:This is really much more of a theological issue. And if we do shows and talk about all the other changes in Catholic theology that have happened, you know, with Vatican II onward, this is one of them. And like, if those are all um you know, top or theological topics that need to be discussed within the church, then this definitely is too, and especially because this one has widespread geopolitical ramifications, yeah.
SPEAKER_11:That the church needs to get right. Well, the thing also is like people will write off Father Maudsley like he's a crazy anti-Semite. Like, I know Father Maudsley, I I I know that man has more charity than just about any priest I've ever seen. Like, I know when he's talking about things, he is not saying them to boost his he's not an e-priest trying to boost himself in the algorithm. He is literally laying on a cross and saying, I will die for the truth. So you people could write him off, you could say whatever you want. I know that man is willing to sacrifice everything for the truth. So I'm sorry, Gavin, Gavin. Um, what what's sad is that I think I don't know this, um, but it seems like a lot of this stuff started coming out from Gavin when Father Maudley was on Catholic Unscripted. I don't know if that's what happened, but it seems like that that's when he started pushing back on this stuff. When because when when they interviewed him, I think it was just Catherine interviewed him, but there was so much pushback on that channel that I feel like Gavin felt like he needed to go the other way, and and that's kind of where the like the the genesis of all this stuff is because ultimately Gavin is fighting for what he believes the truth to be, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_12:He is a very principled individual as well.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, yeah, it's just it's just I think that we need to make sure we get this issue right. So that's why you know, like none of what I'm doing tonight is to roast Gavin, it's to address the ideas of what he's saying and and show that it's like this stuff is important. Let's go to the next clip because you know there's there's some really important stuff in this interview that if you're if you're not if you if you're not paying attention, you kind of miss it and you think it's just a casual conversation. No, Scott is talking about some very important stuff here.
SPEAKER_04:But ask you um an emotional question rather than everything is theological in one sense. Um, in the conversations I've had with with traditional Catholics, who of course uh absolutely say they're not anti-Semitic, um uh when I say, well, what what what do you understand the purpose of Jews to be?
SPEAKER_11:Uh now that the Catholics pause this real quick because I I have to I have to set this up for a second. The answer is well, listen to what he's saying here. He is he is straw manning a trad position that is insane. Like he's saying that when I ask Trads what they think the purpose of the Jews is if they don't convert, well, they're rather useless. I have never heard anybody anything like that. The the very opposite, in fact, there is a very big purpose to the Jews, there's a very big purpose behind God keeping the Jews as a people, and and if you get into Augustine and Scott talks about this in the interview, I don't know if I recorded it, but Augustine, Aquinas, they all talk about how God preserved the Jewish people, and that's a testament to the Catholic Church because all of the other religions, like all the pagan religions, disappeared, but God preserves the people of the old covenant because one, they're a witness to the to the truth of the the biblical uh to the to the scriptures, but second, because they are still part of the divine plan, they still have a role in salvation history. It's not that they are saved under their covenant, it's that there is a role for them to play in the end, in the eschaton. They are going to be, they are going to be adversarial to the Catholic Church, and then there will be a unification of the brothers, like we always talk about on this show. And they are a witness people to the truth of the scriptures. It's like it's it is see. Uh uh, Pope Benedict talked about this. Pope Benedict talked about how the fact that they are still a people, they are um that it is a witness to to God, like it's a witness to the to the to the truth of Catholicism, essentially, like the fact that they are still a people. So um, I I all right, we'll finish this clip out, but it's listen to the the straw man that he's making of Trads here that I really didn't like, and and I and I really am curious because there's something that's going on with Gavin that uh it's like he um it's like it's anti-semisodemonic, uh, and then within a month he's talking with Michael Matt on Trad Inc. And try like Trad Inc. has to fight back, uh and then he's got Larry Chapp on, and then then he's interviewing Scott Hunt. Like, I feel like Gavin doesn't con he kind of doesn't know who he wants to be. Like, do you want to be the remnant with Michael Matt fighting for the TLM? Or do you want to be with Larry Chapp talking about the hermeneutic of continuity, or do you want to I don't I don't know what you're going for, Gavin? Like, and I and I want to give all charity to you. But I I don't know what what I don't know.
SPEAKER_12:From the outside, it it seems like Gavin may fall to what others, whatever side is popular or wins, no, holds to his beliefs on Judaism and Zionism.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, well, I know Michael Matt is very vocal about and he's very much on the same uh like looking at it from our perspective, yeah. Like Michael Matt is very much worried about Zionism, he's very much worried about what's happening in Israel. So I'm curious because Gavin was like one of the headline speakers at the last remnant conference. So I'm just I don't know if Michael Matt's unaware of this stuff that's going on right now.
SPEAKER_12:I don't know, but I'm wondering if Gavin is unaware of where everyone falls on this issue. I think he might believe everyone is with him on this issue, and it's yeah, it's people aren't.
SPEAKER_11:It's a tricky one, and I yeah, I would I would like to talk to Michael Matt. Uh he just refuses to acknowledge that I exist. He's like uh Candace Owen's husband. They just, you know, they know who I am and they just pretend they heard ducking you, they know exactly who I am, they just pretend they don't, these bums. Um, no, I I would never say Gavin's doing it for money. No, nothing like that. I I I I don't know. I can't I do not know the man's heart. I'm just I know this is I know what's going on here, though. Listen to the straw man of the trap position, and then and then we'll kind of break it down.
SPEAKER_04:What do you understand the purpose of Jews to be uh now that the Catholic Church has become the new Israel and the fulfillment of everything? And the answer is well, they must become Catholics. Well, of course, that's of course we want them to become Catholics. We we want them to to uh receive the blessings of the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. And if they don't become Catholics, well, then comes reply, they're kind of useless or worse than useless. And and and there's a kind of theological contempt that I hear in this that I think borders on anti-Semitism. I find myself filled with an affection towards Jews and Judaism and um the precursor. I I I look upon the caterpillar with with a certain amount of gratitude and and joy, knowing that.
SPEAKER_11:So here what he says, I look upon the Jews with an affection as if they're the the precursor to us. And now listen to how Scott goes into this. Scott Scott talks about the discontinuity, he doesn't agree with Gavin. He he talks about no, there's actually a disconnect. Like the modern Judaism is not that caterpillar, the caterpillar that becomes the butterfly are the apostles and our lady before the resurrection, like like that, and and and and Abraham and Isaac, like that the that is the caterpillar. But what you have in modern Judaism is like uh uh living according to the flesh, you know, it's like it's like the it's like the law according to the flesh, as opposed to freedom in the spirit. Like so Scott gets into this, so he kind of listen to how Gavin sets it up, and then listen to how Scott kind of dismisses it the same way he does every other thing that Gavin brings up.
SPEAKER_04:Well, always the purpose of the caterpillar is always to give life to the butterfly, and and at no point does it become a matter of uh of denigrating it. Can you how would you answer someone who who, with a certain degree of barely repressed contempt in their voice, suggested there was no purpose for Jews unless that's what lawyers call leading the quote leading the witness?
SPEAKER_13:Leading the witness, leading the witness.
SPEAKER_11:What would you think of these people who barely have an ability to hide their contempt? Like, no, Kevin, like do you really think I have contempt for Jews, man?
SPEAKER_12:Like, come on, look at like I mean this is I don't want to when you pause videos, you never know what face someone's gonna have, but look at Scott's face, yeah. Scott's face, like what are you what are you talking about, man?
SPEAKER_13:Especially going after transits, it this was so hard for me to watch.
SPEAKER_08:They became Catholics. Well, I would say that is understandable, but just wrong-headed. Uh, you're you're you're doing the wrong thing and you're trying to argue by right reasons. And I would point out you know a number of things. First and foremost, since you're asking me personally and emotionally, I have so many friends who are confident. I got black friends, yo.
SPEAKER_09:Scott, just I got black friends. I'm not a racist, bro. I got black friends.
SPEAKER_08:What they do in enriching the Catholic faith and enriching our understanding and appreciation, not only for the law and the prophets, but the rich heritage of their own Judaism is almost indescribable. But I would also point to um Paula Frederickson, who is a New Testament scholar who is herself, she is herself Jewish, but she has written a book on Saint Augustine. And you could write a similar book on St. Thomas Aquinas, because both Augustine and Aquinas uh really cherish the fact that God has preserved Judaism in a way that you don't find Samaritanism, for example, in northern Israel, that it has a prophetic value. Um, now I'm not convinced at all that this is what would lead Paula Fredericks and say, you know, therefore I'm an Augustinian Christian. Of course not. I mean, she is a practicing Jew, but she recognizes in Augustine, and especially in Contra Faustum, but other works as well, uh, that when you become a Catholic like Augustine did, you end up valuing, treasuring the heritage of Judaism more, not less. Uh, it's not going to say, you know, bring satisfaction to Orthodox Jews who say, okay, so Augustine didn't want to see Jews converted. Of course he does, out of charity. Um and I would say a similar thing is going on in Aquinas, that the preservation of the Jews is a part of divine providence. It's a part of a merciful providence. It's also a sign that we could describe as prophetic. And so, you know, if if in the first century you already begin to see in Paul's own ministry among the Gentiles, the conversion of all Israel off Fort Eori, all the more are you going to await what the fathers would celebrate by anticipation, and that is the conversion that will bring in a great enrichment to the church at whatever point near the eschaton that God has appointed. Um you know.
SPEAKER_11:Um, okay, so the next clip I do, I did, he gets into the I so yeah, he's talking about. Well, first off, this is this is correct. So you could do a 30-day free trial, and you could, it's like a five-part series on all will all Israel be saved, and it's phenomenal. It's an old priest conference that Scott Hahn did. It's slow at times, it's worth sitting through the entire thing. Um, so the the next clip, um, and we will get to your comments. Rob's been starring a lot of a lot of the comments that are that we're gonna get to. Um, but the last clip is kind of where he gets into explaining the divergence of of the old the divergence of the like rabbinic Judaism, how it's how it's nothing like what happens like after the temple's destroyed. So uh, did he think he was gonna what did Gavin think he was gonna corner the goat on the Jews inscription? I don't I I don't know. I I don't know if Gavin understands this topic properly, which is kind of why I wanted to talk about this because I I'm hoping because in a way it seemed like Gavin wasn't really listening to this to the things Scott was saying. He was waiting to just jump in to throw his next point in, and it's like, no, you have to actually listen to what Scott's saying here. This this stuff is he's getting to something very deep here. So let's play that last clip. And uh if you guys can please like and subscribe.
SPEAKER_08:But he points out that uh after 70 A.D., uh Jerusalem, the temple, the priesthood, the cessation of all animal sacrifice, you have post-biblical Judaism taking on the form that we would call rabbinic Judaism or synagogue Judaism. And of course, we're familiar with that. And at the same time, we would say that Catholic Christianity is the full flowering or fulfillment of the old, that there is continuity from old to new, there is discontinuity, it's partly restorative, it's also tremendously transformed, it's transformative to adapt, you know, Hegel's term sublation. I use that in my article in this book from Sinai to Rome. Uh there really is uh a transformative fulfillment. But getting to the point, when you look at the old, the centerpiece of this is the presence of God in a sanctuary with a priest empowered to approach the altar to offer a sacrifice. And this presence, this priesthood, this liturgy, I think is central. It was in the Mosaic Tabernacle at Sinai, it was in the first temple of Solomon, it is in the second temple period as well. But when you move from the old to the new and you look at the transformative fulfillment that Christianity brings, you would compare this to rabbinic Judaism, uh, as Rabbi Baruch Levine does in passing. Because when you look at the Hebrew Bible, you don't find the term rabbi, you don't find the term synagogue. And so rabbinic Judaism, in a certain sense, represents continuity with the religion of ancient Israel, but also discontinuity, because you have not the presence of God, not the Shekinah glory, you don't have priests in the line of Levi anymore, you have rabbis in a synagogue taking a scroll and reading from the law and the prophets and proclaiming that in terms of what we might describe as a sermon, but none of that is really in the law and the prophets. Whereas Levine points out that in the Catholic Church, you have the belief in the divine presence. You also have a priesthood approaching an altar to offer a sacrifice. We call it the Mass. And so we believe that the old is fulfilled by the new as we move from the earthly Jerusalem to the heavenly Jerusalem, from a man-made temple, a temple made by hands to a temple not made by hands as the prophets themselves could foresee. And so I would say, yeah, there is a there is a transformation of biblical religion from the old to the new. But you know, when you look at rabbinic Judaism and synagogue liturgy, uh, and just parenthetically, this obviously becomes the blueprint for so much of what we would describe as Protestant worship, as Protestant liturgy. Um, you don't have the sacrifice. But all of this, as I outline in my book, The Lamb's Supper, the Mass is Heaven and Earth, shows us that in the liturgy of the saints and the angels in the heavenly Jerusalem, the Amen, the Gloria, the Hallelujah, the Agnus Dei, uh, the holy, holy, holy, all of these things are being done on earth in the Mass as they are in heaven by the angels and saints, because there aren't two liturgies, theirs and ours. There aren't two. I must not collect one in this earthly.
SPEAKER_11:What he talks about is how the Jews are living according to the law and the flesh, and they're trying and their refusal to accept God's mercy. Like it's like a stubbornness, it's a stubbornness, it's not the the modern Jews are not the caterpillar that Gavin is referencing. They aren't. There's a total break. Like what goes on from the temple to after the temple is destroyed is Phariseeism. It's the Pharisees, they're the ones who do develop rabbinic Judaism. And who is Jesus rebuking throughout the New Testament? He's rebuking the Pharisees because they're hardness of heart. They're they're living according to the letter of the law, but not the heart of the law. They're finding ways to get around the rules by saying, Well, technically we followed it. And you see that on all these Shabbat lamps that they they that you see on on Twitter all the time, where it's like, Well, I can't touch the electric, but we got this little flip and we flip it, and look, we tricked God. That is the the Judaism that goes on. It's like, and and that's also the Talmud. The Talmud is finding these ways to like it's like it's rabbis like arguing about how they can get around these these things. But the Talmud does talk about something important, which is after the after the resurrection, the it's like the the sh the there's like a rope that lights up at every time uh no, it's um so during Yom Kippur, right?
SPEAKER_12:The Day of Atonement, right? They would have a red string, and if God accepted the sacrifices in the temple for the sins of the you know of the people, that red string would be washed and turned would you know washed by God and turned white. The last time that happened ever was prior to Christ's crucifixion. Yeah, that that that that day of atonement stopped working. And the Talmud said it stopped working approximately 40 years prior to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, which means it it either stopped working, you know, it approximately you could say maybe it stopped in 33 AD, you know, prior to you know Christ's crucifixion, or maybe it was 40 years and stopped in 30 AD during the beginning of Christ's public ministry. That they're not 100% sure on, but it it stopped.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, because they didn't have the because they because they don't have they don't have the ark of the covenant during this time, right? But they still have this happening, so that like you still have the presence of God in the temple, and it's like okay, we don't have the ark of the covenant, but we still God is still with us, and then once Christ comes, that stops. Uh Roy Schumann talks about this in his book, uh Salvation is from the Jews. So um, but it's just it's it's it's the the interview is well worth listening to. I'm not I'm not trying to attack Gavin in any way. I just I hope that he actually picks up on the the subtleties of what Scott is talking about are the more important matters here. That all of this ranting and raving about anti-Semitism, it's like as Catholics, we have to have a proper understanding of this stuff because if your theology is off on this, you will get lured in because propaganda works really good, guys. Like we all fall for it, we all fall for propaganda, and it's very easy to get to fall into this idea that there's gonna be another Holocaust. Oh my goodness, I don't want to be on that side of it, I don't want to be the ones criticizing this stuff when there's going to be things that happen soon that will need to be criticized, they will need to be spoken about, and we're going to have to speak about them without worrying that you're gonna be called an anti-Semite. It's it's like if you're not willing to at least endure that accusation, what the hell are you going to do when they tell you to step on a a picture of Christ's face? Like, if you're not even willing to go, oh my gosh, they call me an anti-Semite. Like, who cares what anybody says? I don't like I love Gavin, but if he accuses me of being a rad trad anti-Semite, like so be it. I I like I don't care. I don't care.
SPEAKER_12:I mean, I don't care. It's the the whole thing with the Heritage Foundation and the whole Shabbat dinner, you know? Yeah, the things like that. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes more widespread, where you're where you're asked to show solidarity by going to Shabbat Shabbat dinners and Seder meals and and all these things, and you have to recognize as Catholics that we just cannot do that, we cannot acknowledge a false religion, and that's what modern Judaism is a false religion.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, and look, this stuff has infected the church. I mean, this is this is what this is what is underlying the rot in the church. So when I say this is the divide in the church, this is where it all stems from. You go back to the council, and this is all about this, no straitate, and then bringing all these other religions in and all this, it's all about this. Because as long as Catholicism is just one amongst many religions and not the one true church, then it's just hey, let's just all get a let's human fraternity this thing out. Let's human fraternity this thing out. What's the big deal? Oh, we just we just have to dialogue with our neighbor, it's not going to work. And the thing is, it's going to be it's there's going to be many Catholics that fall away. Like God, Jesus talks about when I return, will there be faith left on earth? We know there's going to be a great apostasy. It is going to be over this issue, guys. I I I don't know. Sometimes I get like these weird insights and feelings, and I just they're they're this is just one of them. Like this is going to be the thing. So I wanna go over it.
SPEAKER_12:It could be a thing that actually potentially brings in a lot of Protestants, though, too, right? Because there are Protestants that do recognize um you know the the the difference and that do recognize the fulfillment of the the old covenant in the new, right? And and how long before they do realize that that the Protestant denial of the the Catholic priesthood is no different than the the rabbinical Judaism denial of of of the priesthood of Christ.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, yeah. Um, okay, so I want to do I look, I so there's too much to do here to do locals tonight, but I think this is too important to not talk about on here. But I think we should do Recucent, and then I want to get into Joshua Charles's tweet. And what I'm gonna tell you is that what Josh because I talk to Josh and I spend hours together speaking, and we're I don't I'm never gonna put words in his mouth, but the people that I respect the most in this in in theology and in this department, they're on they're all saying the same thing. I am and Josh. I mean, I'm I'm whatever. We're gonna read his tweet, we'll go through it, and I'll try to just stick to what he says.
SPEAKER_12:Probably watch the video first, then read the tweet in a minute.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, but so let's let's do Requisant sellers. Maybe we'll do so, guys. We're not gonna do locals tonight, we're gonna do this tonight because this is a good one and it's and it needs to be talked about. We'll do Recky Sint, then we'll look at we'll do so.
SPEAKER_12:Well, let's do super chats first, finish off this whole topic, do requisite, and then then move forward.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, so I mean, this is all one topic, though. Like when we get it, it's it is all one topic, and it's all so, but yeah, let's do super chats real quick.
SPEAKER_12:So, um, some of them I have started are not super chats, but we'll still go through them.
SPEAKER_11:So this shows the power of worldview. Gavin never suspected Han wasn't going to vociferously agree with him and then and then defend Zionism using complex theology, which is what Gavin wanted him to do. I think that's a hundred percent accurate. Like, like Gavin led the question and thought Scott would back him up with some deep insights, and Scott kind of just was like, Look, the deeper problem here is this.
SPEAKER_12:Yeah, uh, this uh this is similar. The boomer minds can simply not understand these things. The world they live their lives is in is so far is so far away from where it is now. That's a good point.
SPEAKER_11:And like, I think I think I think you have to grant a little bit of charity to a lot of a lot of the older generation because of that.
SPEAKER_12:So it's it's the same reason why they still say things like you, you know, if you want a house, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and all that stuff. The the world they grew up in is just gone, they don't realize it.
SPEAKER_11:It's not that it's just gone, it's kind of like built the chaos we're in now. Like that that kind of mentality is just like suck it up and just do what you're supposed to do. And it's like, look at the world crumbling around you, just suck it up and go about.
SPEAKER_10:It's like it's it's just falling apart.
SPEAKER_11:Uh Han did the exact same thing with Christopher West when he tried to get Han to agree with his cockamine ideas on weird sexual biblical interpretations. I didn't see that, but I would assume that's probably accurate.
SPEAKER_12:Um, let's see here. So we read the one about going to the St. Paul's under Digital Library. Here's a good one.
SPEAKER_11:So many Catholics hear only enough to hear that the Jews are our older brothers, not nearly enough here that this is a brotherhood like that of Cain and Abel. So we talk about that a lot on this on this show. And the Jews actually got upset eventually when they caught on to what the church was doing by saying you're our elder brothers. So, like they were all for it in the beginning, and then they went, Hey, wait a minute, we know what you mean by that. So, like there's a little bit of friction uh on that topic now, and they they're not crazy about that anymore. So, uh, there are four main enemies of the world: Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews. We are Catholics, we never bow to anyone except our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and our blessed virgin mother, our co-redemtrics.
SPEAKER_12:So that's it for super chats. Um, so let's do Requisent real quick.
SPEAKER_11:Um, Reckusyncellars.com. Use code base at checkout for 10% off in honor of Christ the King. So uh RecuSencellars is a winery, they are in Idaho. They are they're in Washington State, they're in Washington State, but they're close to Idaho, right next to it.
SPEAKER_12:They are, they are, man. Some of our listeners from Idol have got have gone to the winery, to the vineyard, and love, which is why I thought they were in Idaho because our Idahoan friends are what do you call them?
SPEAKER_11:Idahoan? Idawan? I don't know what'd you call that?
SPEAKER_12:Idaho. I d well, I know how it's spelled, but it is hard to pronounce, isn't it? Is it Idahoan? Idahoan. We can't pronounce Udahoan.
SPEAKER_11:We can't pronounce Regusen, Idahoan. We can't do any of this. We're terrible. So, yes, our friends from Idaho went and visited the vineyard. They they met the family, they said they were an amazing family. They are they're great.
SPEAKER_12:See if I can get one of those guys on to join us with Ryan.
SPEAKER_11:Sure, yeah. If they want to come on, definitely like they could sponsor the episode. Um, yeah, it's Idahoan. I think I had it right. So Reggie's and sellers, they also have they're also a fruit farm, they deliver to most states. There are some states where they can't deliver wine, but I think you can still get the fruit. They are amazing, they let us talk about anything we want. They especially love when we talk about this topic, apparently. I mean, they're right on board with us. They're like drink a bottle of wine as the apocalypse comes and the horror babylon rides the beast. Let's go. We love records and sellers, guys. Go to recordsandsellers.com, use code based at checkout for 10% off. Tell them that we sent you and let them know you love avoiding Babylon and that they sponsor us. All right, let's do the Joshua Charles tweet. This one, man. If you guys haven't seen this one, Josh, well, we'll play the video first, but Josh has a way of presenting the exact same ideas a lot of people do without being bombastic. And he presents them in a serious way where if you're really paying attention, it's like, oh, wait, this is this is wait, the church fathers warned us about all of this. So let's play the BB Netanyahu video and then we'll uh we'll go from there. You guys are cool, but I have no idea what's going on. Well, you kind of have to probably watch from the beginning of the episode to understand most of it, but well, actually, he they have been here since the beginning, so really you might have to watch since the beginning of like three years ago. I do try to bring I try to bring this stuff down to like layman's level because I'm a layman and I'm I'm not that smart. If I could grasp this stuff, you guys should be able to. It's it it's not kosher wine, so it's not kosher wine.
SPEAKER_10:I'm sad they don't ship anti-Semitic wine to my state. Uh okay, here's the video.
SPEAKER_05:We want to know what you're reading now.
SPEAKER_02:What I'm reading, yeah. Uh it's a book by uh name of Barry Strauss. It's called the Jews against Rome. Jews against Rome. What made you pick it up? Well, we lost that one. I think we have to win the next one.
SPEAKER_11:We want to know what you're reading now. Talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the Jews versus Rome. Well, we lost that one, but we have to win the next one. So um, let's let's get into what Josh has to say about this. So, from a theological perspective, this is an extremely interesting video released by Netanyahu's press office account on Instagram. I took the screen record myself from their account because I wanted to ensure it was genuine and not AI. The traditional Jewish perspective is that the enemy of the Jewish people, Edom, is now identified with Rome, which is often associated with Christendom, the Catholic Church, etc. This identification is because of Rome's destroying the temple in 70 AD. There will be a final end times clash between the Jewish people and Edom, in which the Messiah will defeat Edom. I found many rabbis discuss this in my own study of Jewish eschatology. This is the more interesting given my study of the catacomb or the restrainer mentioned by St. Paul and Thessalonians too, which holds back the coming of the Antichrist. The majority interpretation of the church fathers is that the catacomb is in some sense the Roman Empire. This was further refined by various fathers, theologians, scholastics, etc., to indicate something connected with the church. I personally personally believe it is a pre-eminently it is pre-eminently Christendom, and that Christendom centered on the Church of Rome, the Catholic Church, in both its spiritual and temporal aspects, is the primary thing which restrains the coming of Antichrist. Additionally, the fathers are unanimous that the Jews will, at least at first, believe Antichrist is the Messiah. See note below. It's a huge topic that I can't do justice to in a short post, but I've been researching and writing a great deal about it for several several years now. I will have no I will have more in the coming months. Suffice it to say, once this catacomb is removed, antichrist comes. And if the catacomb is in some sense Rome, the Antichrist is initially received by the Jews as Messiah. Well, that's interesting, as they say. The convergence of Jewish and Catholic interpretation on this question, though obviously expressing it from opposite sides, where apparently the Messiah is one of the Antichrist of the other, is something that should not be ignored. An important note ultimately the church fathers unanimously say that the Jews will initially receive the Antichrist as Messiah, who will deceive them. The whole point is that he must convince them that he is the actual Messiah. But they will ultimately realize they have been deceived, they will reject Antichrist, and then will undergo a mass conversion to Christ, their true Messiah. This, I believe, will be the true reconciliation between Jacob, Israel, Esau, Edom at the end of time. It is also absolutely fascinating to me that Netanyahu speaks of losing the last war against Rome, presumably referring to the Jewish rebellions of the first and second centuries, and the need to win the next one. I'd be very curious for a theologically literate interviewer to ask him who this Rome is that he seeks to defeat. Now, I want to play the other clip of him before we break down what Josh is talking about here, because he actually tells you who he thinks who he thinks Rome is.
SPEAKER_12:Let me uh give me a second to pull that up. That's a different tweet.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, it's a different tweet. This is from a few months back when Mike Pompeo, or a few a few years back, maybe when Mike Pompeo went there, went to uh went to uh Israel.
SPEAKER_12:Uh here we go. Share this tab.
SPEAKER_11:Okay. And here we are. Okay, so now there's an exchange between Mike Pompeo and Benjamin Netanyahu.
SPEAKER_02:We had a moving visit today to the wall. I can't resist repeating this, but I'm going to I said the louder? No, that's a loudest. Uh Pompeo visited uh Jerusalem, but didn't end that well. But this is a different time. Rome and Jerusalem clashed over values with a great tragedy for the Jewish people. But the new Rome, the United States, uses as a new Jerusalem.
SPEAKER_11:Now look, you have to think about this. You have to think about this. This is something we've been talking about on this show. Um the American empire is throughout the entire world. We go around, we throw in whoever we want as a as a as a you know, we overthrow governments, we put our own guys in all over the place. America is the new Roman Empire. We rule with an iron fist, we are the the leaders of the world, like we are the empire of the world. If you look to what Israel does in the first century, they collude with Rome to crucify the messiah. Israel has its tentacles throughout the world, they are the they are the nation that has drunk on the blood of the martyrs, mixed. If you don't see America as the new Rome and Israel as the whore of Babylon, I don't know, man. I don't know. Benjamin Netanyahu sees it that way.
SPEAKER_12:I would say we you gotta be careful, kind of having this right after Joshua's tweet. Because Rome is in the set is in is the church of the remnants of no no no no Romanness.
SPEAKER_11:So look, the Rome in the first century, like the church is the new Israel, right? So spiritually, like Christendom was Rome, right? But yes, it's the American Empire is the Roman Empire of the first century that has not been christened, it's not bad, it's like this tyrannical force, it's the beast that rises up. So it's the beast that was that is not now, but then will return. It's in uh apocalypse 17, eight. So it's it's the beast that was, is not, and will rise up from the abyss. That is what the American Empire is, where the church is the new Israel, it's it's like spiritual Israel and modern Israel is Israel according to the flesh. It's it's it's a tricky thing to understand.
SPEAKER_12:What I'm saying is we gotta be people could misunderstand and think that if America is the new realm, then America is the catacomb. That's not no no no no no. What John said that the realm that the antichrist will fight against is the church, correct, it's not America, because America will be subverted by the Jews, by the antichrist.
SPEAKER_11:The modern Israel, the Jews, according to the flesh, will collude with the beast that returns to persecute the church, just like they did in the first century, like that's how it maps out. It's like the just like they they colluded with Rome to crucify them, like they used Rome as a tool to achieve their goals, correct. Yeah, so they're they're the they're the whore that's drunk on the blood of the martyrs, and and they but they but net the Netanyahu and many others realize that they didn't subvert Rome enough the first time around, and it came back and bit them in the and yeah, it's exactly what I think.
SPEAKER_12:So now now Netanahu saying we're not gonna make that mistake again, we're gonna subvert Rome, what they can see what they consider to be Rome, again to use as a tool for their ends, but they're gonna do so in a way where that tool doesn't then turn around and destroy them.
SPEAKER_11:So uh back to Josh's tweet. Um what are you looking at? Uh I'm just going back to Josh's tweet. So from uh so the traditional Jewish perspective, uh, how okay, so the catacomb I want to get to. Let's see. So, more interesting, giving my study of the catacomb or the restrainer mentioned by Saint Paul, uh, which holds back the coming of Antichrist, the majority interpretation of the church fathers is that the catacomb is in some sense the Roman Empire. So, like you the Roman Empire in connection with the church, so like um the catacomb, the restrainer had to do with the Holy Roman Emperor, Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Rome, the Holy Roman Empire, like except that is a continuation of the Roman Empire. It's the baptized version of it, one of them, yes, yeah, like the the Holy. So, but what you when the church if the church is the restrainer, the things that we are seeing happen right now, the weakening of the church, starts with Pope Paul VI laying down that papal tiara, like that is the catacomb, the church, the pleasure. It started before that, I would say. Yeah, of course, but the the symbolism behind that is all I'm saying. Then you have the council, and then you start having these weak documents come out, and you have the you have pope after pope who are afraid to proclaim the truth of Christ because they're more concerned with the with the the the concerns of men than they are with the concerns of God. Pope after pope doing this. I mean, you have Leo doing it now, accepting a gay couple into the Vatican today, as James Martin is doing what he's doing. Like, this is, in my view, the church in its passion. It's like when Christ is marching to that pillar and and they're beating him at the pillar. If you looked on, you'd say, That's not the messiah, there's no way. When he's suffering on that cross, you say, That's there's no way that's the messiah. What look, what the church is going through right now, it's like that that's not the church of Christ, like that can't be the one true church, but it is.
SPEAKER_12:I mean, we if you look at it by the time Vatican II rolls around, the church is all that's remaining of a romanotost that has ex that had existed since the Roman Empire, you know, starting with the really the Protestant revolt starts to starts to diminish the power of the Holy Roman Empire and the power of the church. You have the Enlightenment leading to the French Revolution, where Napoleon goes and ends up actually dissolving the Holy Roman Empire, then you have uh World War I, which destroys all the traditional you know institutions in Europe and ends in you have the last Habsburg, you know, being dethroned, and even though he wasn't technically uh the a Holy Roman Empire Emperor at the time, he is the last of the lineage of it, yeah. Right, and then you have um World War II, you know, of course, kicks off when some remnants in Europe try to re-establish a bastardized perverted version of some sort of traditional you know European-ness. Um, so yeah, you can really see the last 500 years as the destruction of of Romanitas, and by the time Vatican II rolls around the church, is all that's remaining, and that's why there's been such a war on the church since then, on the church, and and it's like so.
SPEAKER_11:Even when I was on with the Setes, I was trying to say this to them. Um, I said, like, the I know, I know it looks like the church is completely given up, but it's like there's still there's still the protection of the Holy Spirit when you see like if it was up to these men, they would ordain women, if it was up to these men, there'd be gay marriage, but there's still something stopping these men from doing this stuff. You still have the the the Holy Spirit protecting the church from doing the craziest stuff, and and the world still sees the Catholic Church as its number one enemy to get to get these things through. Like they well, the church may not look like Christ does when he's healing the leper. It's not like the the miracles are kind of you know, it's not this miraculous church, we don't have stigmatist saints walking around right now. It's just the church and her passion. It's like the church is just going through something where when you look at it, you're like, I don't know, man. There's a lot of things I could look at and say that can't be the church, but it's the church, and it's just going through something right now. And I think all the things that we're seeing in the world, and especially with this question that we keep talking about, that I that we say every episode we don't want to talk about, but it's just I'm not talking about it because I want to talk about it, talking about it because I'm reacting to the things like it's like every time I want to talk about something else, something happens where I'm like, I have to discuss this, man. It's like I don't know, and and I think that conversation with um with Gavin and and um Scott was really eye-opening. Um, it used to bother me that the world hated the Catholic Church and not mine. Now I feel properly hated. Yeah, the world will always hate the Catholic Church. That's the thing. And it's like, look, there's there's things going on right now where even you as a Catholic are like, what the heck is this, man? Like, what is this? What is this stupid thing with James Martin? Like, what is this stuff? And it's just this it's it's Christ getting spit on before the Sanhedrin, is what that is. It's like the humiliation that we're going to go through as Catholics. Be prepared, guys. It's gonna get much worse. And the thing is, as people are saying in the comments, they're like, we're gonna look back on this time of reverence. Like, God chose us all to be alive right now, like God chose you to live in these insane times. The saints of old longed to live in these times. Kind of crazy because like we all long for like the times past when the church was in her glory. We're not in the time where the church is in her glory going and preaching the gospel to the world and conquering the pagan nations and gathering all things into Christ. It's just not where we are right now in salvation history. Where we are right now is is a very different time. Like you see what's happening, you see the timidity of our pope. Pray for our pope. He's very timid, very, very timid, and he thinks he can please everybody, and you can't please everybody, and it's like you don't stand for something. Things are going to get very difficult going forward, kids. It's gonna get tricky, and your your faith is going to be tested. You're going to see um you have to remember this.
SPEAKER_10:Um hang on, let me find it. I just put it out.
SPEAKER_11:Uh sorry. I I'm looking for the um the Bible verse I tweeted before. Hang on. I'm sorry guys, I know this is terrible. But like uh it's it's oh, for the time is coming when men will not uh for the time is coming when people will not endorse MTG. Teaching will have itching ears. They will they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings. Like that's where we are. People who don't want to endorse sound doctrine. They want to hear things that make them feel good. Oh, this sounds good. Okay, yeah, let's go with this. Oh, you just have to love your neighbor. Oh, there was what's the big deal if the if the two married homosexual men get confirmed in the church? What's the big deal? Let's not use the title co-redemptrix because that could scandalize people. Let's just confirm two gay married men and bring them in. And the gay the gay man that's coming in, his his godfather is his husband. It's gonna get worse. I just like the thing, the man, we should we should go back and go through the Benedict. Uh we're not going to, but the Ratzinger interview from this 1969 where he talked before. I know we have, but it's it's just one of those things that's good to reflect on every year. So we don't have to do it now. But he just goes in and he talks about how the church is going to lose her prestige. No longer will she be and you're a thousand away, man. Oh my gosh, you guys have to be kidding me.
SPEAKER_12:So for anyone who wasn't here at the beginning, uh, Ant's brother needs minimum 17,000 for a new boiler for his house so that his kids have hot water and heat for the winter. Um where did I put that? I have it somewhere here.
SPEAKER_11:If you if you guys, if you guys just go back and watch the first five, it's like seven minutes of the show, and I and I tell and I just tell a personal story about why why we're trying to raise money for my brother. Um but I just like you guys really just you have no idea how much it means to me what you guys that you guys are there for for us. It's like um it's for first off, it's such a witness to Christian charity. Like in 24 hours, in 24 hours, you guys did something that will change my brother's life, like seriously. And and and the to be able to give him that gift, I cannot wait. I'm like, I like to keep it a secret from him for this long, but I just cannot wait to tell him that I have if any of you know Ant or have talked to him personally or have ever told him, Hey, keep the secret, don't tell anyone this.
SPEAKER_12:You have to know it is literally the hardest thing in the world for him to do.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, I do have lines. Like, if you tell me, like, do not mention this on the show, like, I'll never mention it on the show, but especially because but keep on the show, there was a condition there, and he will go around now. It's the no the hardest thing is for me to not tell it on the show if it's a touching story or if it's something I think will move the audience. Like, I'm a storyteller, right? So the like I love telling stories. Read it. Wait,$800 away. New HVAC units are so good, but don't waste one of your three crimes. I'm gonna see a little clear. I stopped myself in the beginning of the show. I felt it coming. I was like, I heard I heard it coming. The boys started cracking, but I didn't I didn't shed a tear. But um he's he's my kid brother, man. I got you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna I want to send you a picture of me and my kid brother when we were. Yeah, send it to me.
SPEAKER_10:I'm gonna send you a picture of me and my brother.
SPEAKER_12:I don't think because the I mean the only brother of yours I've met has been Joey. And of course I've seen Dominic because he's the TV star. But I've never uh I've never seen Mikey. Especially because uh you're you made your wife um block me on Facebook.
SPEAKER_10:So wait, but this picture I'm gonna show you, this is me and my brother at like 19 years old. Send it to you on Telegram, right?
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, yeah, send it to me on Telegram. Alright, I just said this is me and my brother at 19 years old. I don't even know. Oh, I've seen this picture. Yeah, this don't even look like me.
SPEAKER_12:No, it does look like you.
SPEAKER_11:Me and Mikey had the same friends. Um we got in the same trouble together. Like, I wouldn't there was a point in my teen years where like I had problems with so many people that I wouldn't go to a party unless my brother Mikey was with me. Me and my brother Mikey brawled with like 15 guys one night, just the two of us, and we won. Like, you have no idea. My brother Mikey I've heard that story, you've told me that. Yeah, he was so freaking tough, man. Like, I would go if I wouldn't go to a party if he wasn't with me. If he was with me, I'd be like, let's go. We walked in, and I was just like, I know if I'm getting hit, he's getting hit with me. Like, I just had no fear if he was with me. I was like, I don't care. If uh if I got my brother with me, at least we're getting beat up together. Young Anthony listened to instincts, apparently. I was a wigger, dude. We probably had like DMX on in the background or something. Those American flags in the trunk. Um, all right, so wait, let me uh let me see if there's anything else we could do with this um with this conversation before we go. Uh and then and then you know what? We you know what? Let's let's go to locals because we got we got some stuff for locals actually. We are gonna go to locals. Yeah, we'll do we'll do a half hour for all locals members. Like they deserve it. Um because there's you put that story, that New York Post story, in, and I wanted to talk about that last week. Um, and this is this is about the the father who let his uh child die in the car. Um there's some there's an aspect of that story that we have to talk about. Um, and then also um there was another one. Uh you sent a really touching letter um from one of our from one of our fans. Uh, we could read that. We'll do that on locals.
SPEAKER_12:If that person isn't on locals, maybe we should read that now.
SPEAKER_11:All right, so let's read that now then. And then and then we'll go over to locals and we'll discuss the other things. So if you guys aren't locals members, that's where we we kind of do more personal stuff and we you know we kind of let our hair down a little bit, but uh, and it's usually the more fun part of the show. And every time we do a local show where we're like we don't really have anything to talk about, we wind up leaving, and I get a thousand messages of people just going, locals tonight was the best show I've ever seen. So uh, dear Anthony and Rob, I've been following you both on Twitter for a little while, and I just recently started listening to your shows. Thank you for the work that you're doing. You managed to address serious issues while still keeping the mood relatively light in a manner that is greatly edifying. I particularly appreciate your acknowledgement of the problems facing the younger generation. That said, these are incredibly dark times. I'm 27 and I'm married with three children. I'm not Catholic, but I believe Catholicism is true and I'm praying about converting. I would appreciate your prayers, particularly from for my wife, should you find the time. My wife and I currently rent rooms from my in-laws. We are blessed in that regard, but we have no idea how we'll ever be able to afford a home or our own or own for of our own for our family. We live in Rhode Island on the Massachusetts border, where my wife's family has been since their arrival in the Mayflower. And it ooh uh and it looks like and it looks like we'll likely have to leave all that heritage behind someday to make it financially elsewhere. This troubles me because, in order for my parents to make it financially, my family had to leave our home, an extended family in Wisconsin and move to Pennsylvania when I was 12. Consequently, I feel as if I belong nowhere, have no real home, and unless something changes drastically, my children will grow up with the same feeling of rootlessness. As you are fully aware, most of the young men in my generation feel stuck in the same hopeless situation. At least I was blessed enough to be able to get married. Last year, it looked like Mr. Trump was on track to try to turn things around in a real and lasting manner after winning the election, but the last few months have been one open betrayal after another. And now feels as if he is openly spitting in our face. When it comes to the issues we're facing, housing costs, unemployment, mass immigration, etc., the older generation is in general seem to view the young men of my generation as a bunch of losers who just need to get our act together. I won't deny that most of us are degenerate and extremely sorry excuses for men, but a lot of us do, in fact, see the cultural and moral decay around us, the results of our society turning its back on Christ, the failures of our fathers to be strong, faithful men, and we desperately want to change. Despite the terrible economic situation in the world today, I'm seeing more and more couples around my age choose to have bigger families, and they're not even Catholic, just about Protestants. We are trying to work hard to support our families and for their for our efforts, we are rewarded with roadblocks and road roadblock and roadblock from our government. Hatred from the immigrants who care nothing for us or our heritage, even as they reap enormous benefits from money taken from us, and worst of all, derision from our elders who should be supporting and mentoring us. As I previously stated, I am praying seriously about becoming Catholic, but the situation in the church seems to be just as bad as it is elsewhere. This does not not deter me from converting. Far be it from me to criticize the hierarchy as a non-Catholic, but the bishops and cardinals appear to exist in some sort of fantasy world, impervious to the dire situation in the world today. Judging by their actions, they seem to actively want to want the destruction of our country, livelihoods, and heritage. Uh, I've I've heard statements from some of them about how migrants ought to be treated with dignity, which is true, but I have yet to hear from any of them about how mass immigration is currently destroying my generation's ability to provide for our families. They don't seem to care. In short, well, I don't know about in short, but the older generation seems to despise us. Our president has demonstrated that he does not care about us. I mean this sincerely when I ask, do the Catholic bishops hate us too? I apologize for this wrong, long, rambling, depressing email. I just don't know what to do anymore, and none of the men my age know what to do either. I'm going to be doing a lot of fasting and praying going forward. Our situation seems to be completely hopeless, and God himself is the only one who can change it now. Our society deserves to be destroyed for our wickedness, but maybe if we repent, he'll show mercy on us as he did towards the Hebrews when they gave themselves to over to idolatry. Maybe not. Thank you again for all you do. I respect you both tremendously, sincerely, Ethan.
SPEAKER_12:First off, everyone pray for Ethan and his wife and their possible conversion.
SPEAKER_11:Um, and also just like when I when I get when we get messages from young guys, man, it's like it just lights me up that like there's not much there's not who was so it was Joe Enders who's talking about it today, right? Just like the the bishops, man. They're just in a different world, they're just they don't have a clue what is going on in the like the hearts of the never needed to for the most part, right?
SPEAKER_12:I mean, and not not to not to mean this in like a a bad way because um because we should care for our priests, but priests and bishops they're prov they provide for. I'm not saying they make a lot of money, but they get housing and health care, and they don't obviously get married and they don't have to worry about kids. And and I'm not a lot of priests know the struggles that we all go through and and care about them, yeah. But they they cannot know them and feel them in the way that we do. They it just isn't possible. Just like how I I I might acknowledge how difficult it is to be a priest, I will never never know it in the same way a priest knows it. Yeah, dude.
SPEAKER_11:The the the the thing is they just have completely abandoned young men, the church, like the church is just completely abandoned young men, they don't care at all about them, and it's so dumb on their part because the world is evangelized by men. Christ chose 12 men to be the apostles for a reason. Because if you don't win the hearts of men, you don't win the world. Like the the so much of what we're going through is because they've just let women take the lead in all of these things. Every parish is run by women, they they've just completely abandoned young men. You guys want to know why these young Catholic men are flocking to Nick Fuentes because he talks to them and he actually understands their problems. You're all wondering, oh my goodness, what are we gonna do about this guy? This guy's actually talking about the crap they're facing while you guys are off pop knobbing with your Apple teenies at the show.
SPEAKER_12:Not just talking about it, yeah. Whatever you think about him and some of his antics and whatnot, listen to him. He sounds like he cares.
SPEAKER_11:I've never connect, I don't know, but turnaround on anything like Rob.
SPEAKER_12:I definitely don't have I definitely haven't been watching a lot of Instagram.
SPEAKER_11:Listen to him lately. I when I tell you guys, like Rob used to be he because Rob's initial instinct on anything is I don't like it. Like it's just that is my default setting. It's his default mode is like I don't like it. I don't like him, I don't like it. But me and Jason would keep like sending over like funny clips and then funny, and now all of a sudden Rob's like, hey, I've never seen this, and it's like Nick ranting about Catholicism and like not ranting, giving an impassioned speech about about Christ the King, and yeah, and Rob's like, all right, maybe I maybe I judge this guy a little quickly, it's pretty funny. But listen, he's got his crazy things he said, but you know, he's like when I was in my 20s, if you guys have had a microphone in front of me in my 20s. Oh my goodness, you have no idea.
SPEAKER_12:If if you had a microphone in front of you in your 20s, you definitely wouldn't have one in front of your face now.
SPEAKER_11:No, not even a chance, not even a chance. I have a one I have one in front of me now when I worry about the things I say, so and I I really just don't think the older generation gets like the the the irony, the irony, the ironic humor of the younger generation. Where I I always thought that humor was kind of funny anyway. So, like I remember when we first started doing this show, even when we talked to Trent about it, like when we had Trent Horn uh come on, we were talking to him, and he was really worried about the irony poisoning. And I was like, I don't know, I kind of find this stuff pretty funny. Like, I don't know if I'm desensitized to it, but I think they're hilarious.
SPEAKER_12:It it does it wears on me a little in general. Um and like some of the intentional irreverence around certain things, like I said, wears on me a little, but I guess I understand that it's being used as a tool, really, right? To break down the and they've they did a pretty good job, man.
SPEAKER_11:They've broken down some crazy barriers that were up. But uh Ryan says, uh, young men are starving for authenticity and truth, they spent most of their lives being lied to and condescendingly attacking their existence. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, man. I I uh because I remember like when the zoomer humor first started coming around, I was like, these kids are funny, man. When they like even like the the the texting, the way they would like calling everybody king, and like the texting has even changed since then, but it was just kind of fun, and my kids were like beside themselves that I knew like Gen Z texting, they were like they were like losing their minds. Um, did somebody just say it's at 176?
SPEAKER_12:176. Oh my 17631, Aunt.
SPEAKER_11:All right, stop it at 18 though. I don't want I don't want any you can't stop it, you're the one in control. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna shut it down. Stop it at 18. I'm gonna stop it at 18 because uh maybe I should let it go to 20 just for a car for him. For not for me, for him. Like, because if we could if we could get him a car. This kid, this oh man, I can't tell you guys what he's gonna how he's going to react. I can't wait. I can't wait to tell him. Like, this is like I'm more excited for this than I was for my kids on Christmas morning because I know it's life-changing. It's not it's not getting your kids their first snowboard or something. Like, this is no a good a good boiler literally lasts 20 years, like you're setting them up for it's going to be like uh a video where they like they they take the person away and then come back and redid their house or something. Like, that's the kind of reaction I'm that he's going to have from it. So um, all right, let's jump over to locals. We'll do that New York New York Post story because I I have some things to say about that, especially for young men. Like, you guys really should hear what I have to say about this because this this father left his daughter in the car, and she was a toddler, and she died. And the father just took his life, and there's a reason he took his life, and it wasn't just because his daughter died, and I want I want to get into that. So, um, all right, guys, thank you so much, man. This is a very long YouTube show. We usually only do an hour. I appreciate all of you guys for sticking around. Um this was a this was a this is a good show, I think, because um sometimes you don't know like what you're gonna talk about, and then some like I texted Rob before the show and I said, This is gonna be a really good one tonight. Like I I just I just knew it was, and uh when you see an hour and 45 minutes go by and you're like, holy cow, I can't believe that much time went by. That's how you know you had a good one.
SPEAKER_12:So remember the times when we would only have 13 minutes left to talk on locals?
SPEAKER_11:Right. Because of the two-hour limit. We had a two-hour limit. Yeah, we got a little longer than that. So all right, we're gonna go over the locals. We're gonna do a short one there, probably be like 20-25 minutes, but I want to talk about that story.
SPEAKER_12:Okay, I'm just gonna cut us off because I will make this quicker. So yeah.
SPEAKER_10:No, see you guys on Tuesday.
SPEAKER_12:Okay, Rumble is dead, and we are just on locals.
SPEAKER_11:Bring that story up, man. This this story, I've been watching this story, and I wanted to talk about it last last episode, and I totally forgot to put it in the show notes.
SPEAKER_12:Um, give me a second. I'm working on locals over here real quick. Okay, got that. Okay, um, where was it? That's still on the Twitter, if I right? Yeah, so that's that's on Twitter. I'm the one that it's actually from me, right? Yeah, you put it in there. Okay, I got it. I love when Rob puts stuff in there.
SPEAKER_11:I'll probably actually be engaged that episode. Well, you'll engage, and especially like it's something I want to talk about too. It's like I know that'll be a good back and forth.
SPEAKER_12:Okay. No, I don't want to show notifications from the I actually don't know how he took his life. Wait. Um, I do suffocation in the car. He did it to himself.
SPEAKER_10:Uh, carbon monoxide, yeah. Carbon monoxide. Well, that's a pussy way out, to be honest. Painless.
SPEAKER_11:Okay. Uh, the Arizona dad who killed himself to dodge decades in prison for leaving his two-year-old daughter to die in a hot car took his life in a haunting echo of his heinous crime, suffocating himself in his vehicle. Uh, Christopher Schultz was 38, was found dead in his garage of the Phoenix home he shared with his wife, Dr. Erica, whatever, uh, five hours after he killed himself. Exactly how he died has yet to be confirmed, but he is believed to have died from carbon monoxide poisoning. Uh, the death was previously confirmed as a suicide by police. Uh, so the thing is, this guy gets home, leaves his two-year-old daughter in the car, goes in the house, totally forgets she's in there, as he's on his Xbox surfing for porn. He killed himself out of shame, not even for taking his daughter's life, but it like the the thought that he his addiction to pornography is what like you have to think about how warped that is. Like, you're you disgusting degenerate, you're so addicted to porn that you left your two-year-old in the car in Arizona on a 95-degree day. And his wife had told him multiple times, stop leaving the kids in the car. Like, this isn't just a one-time thing. Multiple times he's done this. This idiot knew, like, oh, don't leave the kids in the car. Like, I used to have sympathy for parents that did this because it's like, oh man, like, especially moms who like had a had a bunch of kids and like she had a crazy day going on, and she just poured all the packages in, and next thing you know, her phone rings and she totally forgets, and an hour went by. I have no sympathy whatsoever for any parent that does this anymore because everyone knows your freaking kid can die from this now.
SPEAKER_12:I never understood it prior to having kids. I definitely don't understand it now.
SPEAKER_11:Like, how are you not the first thing you're saying is where's my kid? Like, I don't I don't get it. Like, in I don't know if it's just me or I don't know.
SPEAKER_12:I always have in the back of my head like some approximate idea of where each one of my kids is, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_11:Dude, everyone knows this is a danger at this point, though. Like, this isn't this isn't some like random crazy thing that could happen because it did it did before it was in the news a lot, like you could see maybe this happening, but yeah, before before internet news and cable news and stuff, if it didn't happen in your metropolitan area, right? You weren't seeing stories on it, but now we see stories on it all the time, all the time, and the thing is uh so this even goes back to like the John Deloney show that I always oh my gosh, man. Um the the John Deloney show I watch that I hate watch all the time. There are so many people who call in and it's their husband. The the wife accidentally went through his phone and saw the disgusting pornography he's into. Like, and the women are heartbroken because this guy they present himself he presents himself as like a good man, right? And and he's and he's he's you know, uh he does everything he's supposed to do, but in this deep dark place in his life, he's looking at some of the most disgusting crap you can imagine. This one I heard yesterday where a woman, the husband died, he had cancer, and he always had a phone that she never like really thought to go into. And after he died, she went through his phone and saw the most horrific crap, and he was messaging prostitutes, and he was and it's like she thought he was the greatest husband in the world, and then he dies, and she gets a hold of his phone, and her whole life is shattered because she has to go through this second grieving process that her husband wasn't the man she thought he was, he was really this you you you interviewed my wife on the one show, right?
SPEAKER_12:And and and she talked about uh the how porn and infidelity just destroyed her parents' marriage, her parents' marriage, yeah.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, you um like I I especially if you are married, you men, like your freaking wife and kids should be able to look at your phone at any moment, and you never have to worry about what's on there. Like the craziest thing my wife's gonna see is me trolling some Protestant. That is like if she sees my Twitter feed, that's the worst thing she's gonna say. Well, not true. There's group chats, Hunt. Well, that's true. She's gonna see a lot of N-words.
SPEAKER_12:The the group chat between uh guy friends.
SPEAKER_11:Um it's it's my wife would not be shocked by anything, I promise you. There's nothing, there's nothing in those group chats that would surprise my wife. My wife has been with me for a long time.
SPEAKER_12:The other day I was when I was sending you you know the group, our group chat uh reels from Instagram. I got one from Hope. It was a Hitler edit. I'm like, dude, you don't send me a Hitler edit, dude.
SPEAKER_11:You want to know what's funny about Nicole though? Nicole's always so worried I'm gonna offend people, like she like she's always so worried I'm going to offend like she like anytime we talk about Lila or something, like if we put Lila on the thumbnail or something, like she's just like, You're so mean. Why are you so mean to everybody? I don't like it. I'm like, shut up. Stupid broads, they don't know what's good at the dumb broads. You don't know what what captures an audience. I know what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_12:Um, but it's like, yeah, Nicole's oh my they're women, they've never had to work to capture an audience, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_11:Like you just get to sit there and look pretty, we're all yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_12:That's why that's why Leela Lila has an audience.
SPEAKER_11:Oh my goodness, yeah. She's like anytime we do anything criticized, like even when we like criticize Matt Fresh, like, why are you being mean? I don't understand. But then, like, like now, now my wife's like, he's like a little weasely, I don't like him. That's what she said about like he's weasely, I don't like him. He comes off as he doesn't he doesn't come off as genuine. Look, man, as I love when she like I love when she like breaks like that and like says something like that.
SPEAKER_12:As a husband, your job is to make your wife based.
SPEAKER_11:How do you think? Um, yes, that's 100% accurate. Yes, your job as a husband is to make your wife based. Um, how do you think first off? I'm worried Gavin's going to put a copyright on us. So be I don't think he should do that because if he does, then I'm gonna go full scale on Twitter and I'm just gonna say it it proves our point.
SPEAKER_12:Yeah, that instead of engaging with a theological topic, you'd rather just shut the conversation down.
SPEAKER_11:I mean, he hasn't done it yet, so let's not get hipped up about something that hasn't happened yet. But I am wondering if he will do that. Um secondly, I'm curious. You know, Trent watched that show. There's no way he didn't. You know, if not live, he will in the next he will, and so will Matt Frad. Those guys will watch that. Like those guys will watch a show like that. They don't those are the shows those guys watch specifically, you know.
SPEAKER_12:Molly says we're the only reason anyone knows about the interview. Yeah, you're right. Nobody, dude.
SPEAKER_11:I so um I I told Rob yesterday when I saw the interview, and I was like, I was just losing it. I'm like, dude, you have no idea how awkward this thing is. I'm like, it's not first off, even going into it. I was I was going to fly off the handle about it, and I and I told Rob before the show, I was like, let's try to handle this charitably, like let's not let's not just like go. I said we'll we'll address his arguments, let's not insult the man, let's be very cautious how we go about this. I don't want it to come off like we're attacking him in any way. But yesterday when I first watched it, I was like flipping out. I'm like, dude, you have to see this part. Like Gavin brings up the Talmud, and Scott's just like, Yeah, I don't know what he's talking about. Like, and then I was like, I want to do an emergency broadcast. Like, let's go ahead. He's like, dude, I'm going to watch the Northern Lights tonight. We're not doing that. Like, feel free, but I I can't be on it. So I said, and I and I go, I go, you know what, dude? Nobody's going to cover this. Like, this isn't one of those topics anyone else is going to touch. Like, it was ours for the taking. Nobody else was going to go near it. It was just one of those our Jewish revolution, the Jewish revolutionary spirit. I bet money he's read it. I bet money he's read it. Oh, I'm sure. I will bet money Scott Hahn read that book. Um, so I I just knew anyone willing to take an$18,000 bet real quick. I bet the whole thing on it. Double up quick. Um, I knew that show was gonna be ours for the take in because I I knew I knew I know, I see you go Bobby or Tap.
SPEAKER_12:I can't do that one, bud.
SPEAKER_11:No, I mean, look, you guys are all in the chat, you guys see it. I I don't know what's going on there, I have no idea what's going on there. I have completely distanced myself from it. Circling completely out of control, like just don't don't know what's going on there. I don't know.
SPEAKER_12:And you know more, you know more than anyone else, and even you were like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, I know a lot of back backstory there. I won't I won't talk about it, but it's that man, he needs help. But um, so I knew this show would be ours for the taking. I first off, I knew nobody even watched it, like it's got like 2,000 views on YouTube, and it's bizarre because well, now it's gonna have a lot because I guarantee everybody that watched our show is going to go back and watch it now. But you did tell them to literally it's a good, it's a good interview, and if you watched, if you watch it from 51 minutes to the end, it's like really interesting because every time Gavin brings something up, Scott just kind of dismisses what he's saying and he goes, I want to talk to you about the more important thing here. He he does it in a Scott Han way, yeah. You know, it's very cordial, and Scott Han's like, Oh, yeah, you know, you're right, you rightly, you you rightly point that out, but and you know what they say about anything that comes before, but So um I was DMing with blank the day before, then that happened, then this stuff happened. Yeah, uh I just think married men um the way they interact with women publicly is like I don't know man. I you'll never catch me simping on some chick and never ever ever. I don't I don't ever do that stuff, like no way. Um yeah, it's it's bizarre behavior, and I don't know if that's like an age thing where he's just clueless and doesn't understand what it looks like, or if he's okay, come on, he's not a he's not an 80-year-old nursing home hitting on nurses, like it's not just that. There's like tons of people below going, yo, what are you doing? Yeah, and like instead of him looking and going, all right, maybe that was a bad move, he just like he blocks them and calls them cowards and yeah, calls them uh fake name cowards and blocks them.
SPEAKER_12:And like, no, no, we're asking, what the hell are you doing, man?
SPEAKER_11:Mom says I just simp on Nick. No, I I uh Whit's Nick uh no, uh uh Fuentes. I it's it's not it's not that it's that I I first off I do want to engage his audience a lot. Like I I I think it's important to those kids that those kids have mentors, right? And they don't just hear the the fire brand of Fuentes because she meant Cavazos. Oh, you meant Cavazos? Oh, okay. But to to the point of Fuentes, like I think it's important to try and talk to the guys that are listening to him.
SPEAKER_12:Why do both of Nicks in our life have to have Hispanic names? Wait, should we play the Cavazos clip for anybody that didn't see it? We can.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah, we gotta we gotta talk about Cavazos. We have to, hang on, we gotta talk about Cavazos.
SPEAKER_12:Um you tweeted that, right?
SPEAKER_10:Yeah, uh, and I said this I'll just go to your tweet. Just just uh search awkward, yeah.
SPEAKER_12:I got it. I got it.
SPEAKER_11:Got it. So Cavazos is on Joe McClain this morning, and uh I just shot a message on the thing and I said, Hey, ask Nick if he's still MAGA. I like I was in the live chat. First off, I was I was on Joe McClain's show this morning, like on the phone. I I he has me call in like twice a week, just like 7.10.
SPEAKER_12:Oh, so you were actually on the show prior to this before Nick came on.
SPEAKER_11:Like I so he had me at 7.10, and I I go on and I talk for five minutes on a anytime it's something with New York. So, like, if there's something with New York, Joe will ask me to like do a five-minute call in. So this morning it was uh uh Father Martin and St. and St. Pat's Cathedral. So he he yeah he texted me last night and he was like, Hey, you mind just calling in for five minutes and just talking about the Strickland thing and and the thing that happened with Father Martin? I was like, Yeah, I don't know, whatever. So as he's introducing me, he's like, and we got Nick Cavazzo's coming up at 7:30. And I'm like, Oh, okay. So Nick comes on, and I just shot a text in and I go, Ask Nick if he's still MAGA because this is right after Trump started talking about allowing allowing all these Chinese and Indian immigrants in.
SPEAKER_12:Oh, we're all talent talentless hacks that we need all the Indians to come save us.
SPEAKER_11:Nick says Anthony Cold sounds like he never took his phone out of his pocket. First of all, I was under an elevated train and I dropped my phone in the truck. I'm trying to it is it is always first and I'm tired at seven o'clock in the morning. Huh? You are a boomer. What do you mean? Why?
SPEAKER_12:Just the way you use technology.
SPEAKER_11:Oh, yeah. No, well, I'm I'm usually almost working while I'm trying to do it, driving while I'm doing it. But um, uh, so yeah, so I tell I I I shot in the show in the in the live chat. I said, is Nick still MAGA? Let's see Nick's response.
SPEAKER_01:No, okay, here we go. Thanks. That's kind of awkward. I'm gonna be honest with you, Anthony Avante hanging out, asking big questions, asking big philosophical questions. Is Nick still MAGA? Which one? That's the does he mean Fuentes? Does he mean Cavasos? I'm not even sure. I'm not even sure which one he means. Let's just be honest.
SPEAKER_06:People, I'm pretty sure Anthony, he only cares about what uh Nick Fuentes says. He doesn't care about what Nick Cavaso says anymore. He doesn't even talk he doesn't even talk to me anymore. So I lost my I lost my uh my usefulness on that show, and they were like, all right, we're gonna do this on Nick Fuentes and Griper people.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, the grip. All right. What was the name of the show? I was watching it the other day, The Griping of Catholic Inc. I think that was yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I don't know. It's like it's like all they talk about now is the gripers, the gripers, the gripers, and I'm just like, hi, hi guys. Yeah, it was it was fun, you know. What's up, y'all? But uh no, yeah, is Nick still MAGA? Yeah, I would say uh I would say I'm fairly critical, especially in this last.
SPEAKER_11:We gotta have Nick back on. His feelings are he misses us, he doesn't like we haven't had him on. We gotta get him back on. It's a little bro, we gotta bring him back on. Little bro need to stop ankle biting, then stop. I think his feelings are hurt that he hasn't been invited on. I'll be honest, it's not like I don't want him on or want to talk to him. It's I it's a little awkward with the pelican thing, yeah, especially with some of the behind the uh scenes stuff. But it's it was just a little awkward with the pelican stuff, like we didn't go there, and then like it just felt a little awkward. So I was just kind of giving them room to breathe, and I wanted to make sure like I never said anything negative about anybody. I wanted them to be, you know, like that was all that was, yeah. Um, but like I want them to succeed, I want nothing but the best for them. And if Nick wants to come on and promote Pelican on our show, like I'm fine with that. I just it kind of did get a little bit awkward when we said no. Um, so yeah, it just got a little awkward when we turned it down because it it we didn't turn it down because of anybody there, like we love all the guys there, turned it down for personal reasons, and like it was just like it was a very big life decision that Rob and I talked about, we prayed about it. I was like, I just don't think it's the right fit for us, but I I think you know it's hard to not take that personally from their perspective, and like I haven't talked to Kennedy and it feels weird for us, yeah. Well, I haven't talked to Kennedy since then, and I used to talk to Kennedy all the time, so I was just kind of letting enough time go by, and I wanted them to like get on their their own feet and like stabilize a little bit, and then it's a lot of work, we don't want to bother them while they're trying to roll up a whole brand new thing, yeah. Yeah, so so I was trying to just let a little time go by, and then I planned on calling every one of them individually. I just haven't done it yet. But I I I think we should get Nick back on. We'll we'll chat with our little bro. Can we please please not talk about Trump? No, we're not gonna talk about Trump. He I the funny thing is, he's saying that we only care about Cavazas, but I mean we only care about Fuentes, but Nick's been doing a lot of grouper adjacent content, a little hypocritical, and then the next week he'll be against it, and then the week after he'll be for it again, and then the week after he'll be against it, and then he'll say he's getting off social media, and then he's on social media, and then he's never gonna ever have a Twitter, and then he suddenly has a Twitter. He's a little mixed up. He needs our he needs our mentorship, Rob. He needs our mentorship. Um, all right, we're gonna wrap this one up. We went a little long. Uh we will Tuesday we have Ryan or Thursday?
SPEAKER_12:Ryan. Oh, Grant the 18th.
SPEAKER_11:He said the 18th, right? Is that uh we'll have to check. I'd either Tuesday or Thursday we have Ryan Grant. So maybe we'll get Nick the other day.
SPEAKER_09:We'll find out.
SPEAKER_11:I'm tired.
SPEAKER_12:Uh I'll try to uh remind me to email the requisite guys tomorrow.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, we'll figure out what day Ryan's coming, we'll see if they one of those guys want to come on. Maybe the son. The son's young, good good dude. Get him on and then uh go from there.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah.
SPEAKER_11:Uh what'd you guys think of the show tonight? You guys like it? 19,000. You guys are amazing, man.
SPEAKER_12:Dude, um possible idea for a future show, kind of related to what we to the whole uh Gavin Hahn thing. We should get Modsley on again soon, Father Modsley, to talk about the whole um similarity between rabbinical Judaism and Protestantism. That would be interesting.
SPEAKER_11:What it what sucks is I would love to get Scott Hahn on, but he'll never come on with us. Like it's and we made that pretty much impossible at this point. But the thing is, like, it'd be the most interesting interview he's ever done, or not ever, but like the most interesting interview he's doing lately. You know what I mean? Like nobody else knows how to uh nobody else knows how to get to like the heart of things with him and get like I am the reason why is because I know his work so well and I know the things that lit me up when I was learning them, and I would draw those out into small segments for the to be digestible for our audience, and I know what I would do with that. It's the people that interview him, they're just like enamored that they have Scott Hahn on, and they're they don't they there's never they they never know like how to listen to the story how you converted again for the billionth time. It's just there's there's so many gems in in his work because I've listened to all the priest conferences. That's like the majority of where I've like learned stuff from him is the priest conferences because he's teaching priests, he's not like giving a talk for a church, you know, where he's just talking to lay people and he dumbs it down. Like I've I've sat through 20 hours of priest more than that, 40 hours of priest conferences where he's going deep into like the Catholic theology of Saint Paul, and it's just I you know, I wish I wish he would uh I wish he would talk with someone like like us, but what if we offered instead of doing it live, offered to record it and then you know tell him what anything he feels should be edited out, we can edit out. I think if like the rumor even got out that I asked, I think you'd have guys behind the scenes like f I like I think Scott Hahn knows who we are, like not what not because he watches us, but because he's been warned. Like I think, dude, that we everybody's been warned about us, I promise you.
SPEAKER_12:Um one thing that came up uh in the chat that I don't think you saw was you remember that wretched saints kid who got uh yeah caught the same well not with the same but um so he uh decided to become uh to to not become Catholic and now he's Oriental Orthodox. Are you serious? Yeah, yeah. Uh Taffy said it. He sent me the he's got a video on the his YouTube. These guys are all clowns, dude.
SPEAKER_10:These guys are all clowns. They're just they just want to be influencers, they don't care about anything else. They just want to be influencers.
SPEAKER_12:It's gonna be funny when he realizes that the uh like the the cops don't like you if you're not a cop. Like you, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_11:Like, dude, so it was so many, so many, um, so many of these guys just want to be like viral influencers. It's it's really sad. I'm telling you, I love how like small and niche our show is. I really do. I I love that it's kind of just like this boutique little garage band podcast. It's not like nobody writes articles about us. We kind of we fly under the radar.
SPEAKER_12:You've been in Vanity Fair, yeah.
SPEAKER_11:But that barely. It was when it was like that. That was barely, it gave me like a throwaway line, but we fly under the radar of like the the mainstream criticism. Like they thought they're dumb because we're the most dangerous show there is, like, honestly, like they write stuff about Taylor Marshall and and Tim Tim uh I want to get Scott Hunt five minutes later. We're the most dangerous show there is. What I mean is we're the most dangerous because there's young guys listening to us, like we're we're talking to the future of the church, and we're talking about we're way more interesting than the other freaking shows out there. We just are. We're talking about things that are just more interesting, and and the guys that like us and watch us really like us and watch us, and it's like that they they they're they're either ignoring us because they don't want to bring more attention to us, or they're ignoring us because they underestimate us. It's one of the two.
SPEAKER_10:I don't know which, maybe both. All right, all right. I gotta get one thing's for sure.
SPEAKER_12:We don't have to go to no stinking Catholic Creator conference conference to learn things.
SPEAKER_11:Go to the next Catholic Creators Conference and bump into Han. You think he'll be there? If he's there, I'll go. I can I'll go ahead.
SPEAKER_12:Uh just say I can mispronounce uh Katie Prejean's name right to her face.
SPEAKER_11:Oh man, she tweeted out that she was going to uh she's like, I uh I'm am I busy? Yes. Do I have this going on? Yes. Am I making time for a lunch date with my husband? You better believe it. I wanted to say you better be doing something for him after lunch. Just using him for a lunch date. You better have his dessert after lunch. Be a good wife. Uh all right. Yeah, no, I'll I'll go to the Catholic Creator conference if Enoch is there and performing and gets paid.
SPEAKER_09:All right, rap it.
