Avoiding Babylon
Avoiding Babylon was started during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. During these difficult and dark days, when most of us were isolated from family, friends, our parishes, and even the Sacraments themselves, this channel was started as a statement of standing against the tyrannical mandates that many of us were living under. Since those early days, this channel has morphed into an amazing community of friends…no…more than friends…Christian brothers and sisters…who have grown in joy and charity.
As we see it, our job here at Avoiding Babylon is to remind ourselves and those who enjoy the channel that being Catholic is a joyful and exciting experience. We seek true Catholic fraternity and eutrapelia with other Catholics who, like us, are doing their best to live out their vocation with the help of God’s Grace. Above all, we try to bring humor and joy to the craziness of this fallen world, for as Hillaire Belloc has famously said:
“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There’s always laughter and good red wine.
At least I’ve always found it so.
Benedicamus Domino!”
Avoiding Babylon
The Enemies of All Mankind - w/ E Michael Jones (Full LOCALS Show)
This episode is only available to subscribers.
Avoiding Babylon +
Access to the FULL show on audio!Start with a hard choice: do we conform our desires to truth, or force truth to suit our desires? That’s the spark for a wide-ranging conversation with E. Michael Jones that threads through Freud’s claims, Wagner’s seductions, Schoenberg’s break, and the Bauhaus creed that turned homes into “machines for living.” We unpack how ideas aren’t born in laboratories but in lives, and why biography often reveals the motive power behind “modern” theories. From literature departments to city planning, we map how ideology escaped the page and reshaped architecture, neighborhoods, and families.
We trace postwar social engineering—urban renewal, projects, and the legal tools that cleared Catholic ethnic enclaves—alongside a second lever of control: sexual liberation. Jones connects the dots from early warnings in Libido Dominandi to the smartphone era’s pornography compulsion, arguing that vice is an efficient form of political power. Then we pivot to Logos: how St. John translated the Gospel for the Greek mind and why “Logos” remains the only reliable common ground for dialogue today, including with rising Muslim communities. Along the way, we revisit Milton’s Satan—“better to reign in hell”—as a hidden American myth of freedom against order, and we ask what, if anything, carries into a coming Fourth Republic.
The conversation doesn’t shy from taboo terrain: contested Holocaust narratives, the collapse of the production code, the politics of liturgy and parish life, and the claim that stories can govern nations as tightly as laws. We also explore why younger audiences are demanding straight talk, how seminarians are quietly pushing for renewal, and what Italy’s enduring beauty still teaches about a culture ordered to God. If modernity’s grand project turned truth into putty, this episode argues for the reverse—recovering an order that makes family, worship, and city life humane again.
If this challenged you or gave you language for a hunch you’ve felt, share it with a friend. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: which myth would you retire to make room for truth?
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You have two options in life, at least intellectual options. You can either conform your desires to the truth, or you can conform the truth to your desires. And it seems to me that just about every modern thinker that I came up with, now that the biographies were coming out, had chosen the latter course. They had decided to suppress the truth because it didn't conform to their desires. So Sigmund Freud would say, all men have a desire to sleep with their mothers and their sisters. All men, Sigmund? I found that hard to hard to swallow when I first heard it. And then suddenly the story of Freud's relationship with his sister came out, and suddenly this became somewhat more understandable.
SPEAKER_04:You got me.
SPEAKER_03:Dr. E. Michael Jones, we have we have wanted to do this interview for so long. Um okay, so uh we have a lot to get to tonight because I I've never had a chance to speak with you, but I've been admiring your work for a very long time. So we're I would like to kind of start back at Degenerate Moderns, and because all of your books seem to flow into each other, where you start discussing the topic of the next book in the book you're writing at the moment, and they all just seem to flow into one another. And Degenerate Moderns was the first book I read of yours, and it was um, you have these unbelievable Chestertonian quotes in that book. Um, one that stood out to me was um it they they were they they tried to sell us on. Well, I'm not gonna get the quote exactly right, but they tried to sell us on that religion is the opiate for the masses, but it turns out that opiates are the religion of the masses, and and you get and it's like you have these throughout your work, and I'm I'm I'm I your books are amazing. Um, and you you you always have a way of kind of bringing it, bringing it down to to a level like even what you just saw in that clip. So um what year was Degenerate Moderns? And that was that was the first one that you really you wrote books before that, but that was the first one that kind of popped off, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it did. It got a lot of response from the conservative movement at that period of time. Uh so it was around uh, I think it was 92. Oh, that was a little bit two, and that me saying that that's a direct quote from uh Degenerate Moderns is what I said. That was a C SPAN, I a C-SPAN I uh was Washington, I think it was uh about uh around the time of everyone was talking about the universities, about the takeover of the universities by what we call political correctness. So, but it was also, I mean, I started off uh uh intellectually as a as a literary critic. I got a PhD in American literature from Temple University at a time when there was a big contestation. This was the beginning of the takeover of the universities. I had a front row seat to it. Uh and uh the the issue when I was in graduate school uh was Ezra Pound.
SPEAKER_03:Um, go ahead. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01:I so it the question, so the he was uh the man well along with T.S. Eliot, who revised the English language at the beginning of the 20th century. Uh Pound edited uh the wasteland for T.S. Eliot, and they developed a literary criticism that eventually became known as the New Criticism, which was basically close textual reading, uh, forget about everything else. Uh well, I am nothing against uh close textual reading, but there's a certain point where it's not going to reveal what's going on. And if you're a classic example, was uh, as I mentioned, Sigmund Freud. You can do a close textual reading all you want, and the problem is he's not being honest with you. Uh all of the people I mentioned in Degenerate Moderns had a kind of hidden agenda. Uh, and in order to find out the hidden agenda, you had to do the by read the biography, which is something nobody ever did when the new criticism was in charge. So it was a kind of truncated, uh, not a bad idea, but a limited, truncated version of uh what you needed to understand literature.
SPEAKER_03:That's the interesting thing about all of your books, is that you the the research that you're doing for these books is it's it's something that nobody else really does, where you're you're reading the work and then you're going back and studying the person that actually wrote the work to try to get to the motivations of the person writing the work. I I watched your interview with Patrick Coffin yesterday, and you were even doing that, like explaining so much of like the motivations behind the English, the English language and why why we kind of perceive everything the way we do. So, what book comes after degenerate moderns?
SPEAKER_01:Dionysus Rising.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, well, what was that one? I never even heard of that one.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, it's basically the same thesis. And uh a friend, uh Canadian friend said to me, she loved degenerate moderns, so she said, Why don't you do something about modern music? So I said, Okay, I'll I'll write a chapter on it. Well, it turns out it was much more complicated than I than I thought because I was going to go right to Arnold Schoenberg, he's the classic modern composer, and start with him. And I realized you can't start with him, you have to start with Richard Wagner. And uh so uh his his base, his most famous work is for Claire to Nacht. It's a smeared version of Tristan and Azolda. That's what his brother-in-law said, and that's what it is. It's Tristan and Azolda, kind of uh made less comprehensible. And the beginning of the book is Wagner. Wagner is a genius in every he's one of these great just monuments to what can I say? Beauty, genius. He's got everything. Uh, and he's he was a tremendous figure. And everybody in the 19th century, by the end of the 19th century, everybody had to take care, take account of Wagner, including people like J.R.R. Tolkien, who got the whole idea of the ring from Wagner and never admitted it. So really we can talk about that too. I just I just did a piece on Tolkien. Uh there's a piece I wrote called Tolkien's Failed Quest. It's another story. We can go into that another.
SPEAKER_03:This is the problem.
SPEAKER_01:We might have to make this a multi-part interview because it's fine with me, but I'm trying to stay on track here. And I'm trying to say, look, this is if you want to talk about Wagner, let's talk about Tristan und Zolde. It's about sexual liberation, and it swept all of Germany away. Schirmberg was swept away with it. He was in Vienna when everybody was going to Bayreuth, listening to Wagner, and he was in the Bohemian circles there. He's a Jew who converted to some evangelical Protestantism. And then everybody puts it into action. They watch Tristan, they decide sexual liberation is a great idea, and you act on it, and your life falls apart. So his life fell apart when his wife committed adultery because she listened too much to Tristan Azolde. And he took, he was a uh reverted, he was an angry man who reverted to Judaism. Okay, returned to the vomit of Judaism, uh, disavowed his baptism and vowed not just revenge on his wife, but revenge on the West and on the music it created. And so that's what you have to know to understand Schoenberg.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so that so now you start uh exploring music, and then where do you go from there? Because I'm like all of these books leading do you go to the uh the slaughter of cities after that? Or is that something?
SPEAKER_01:No, uh Living Machines. I went to architecture, modern architecture, Bauhaus architecture. I looked into Gropius. Like, what is the meaning of those ugly Bauhaus buildings that everybody hated? Uh there were all over the world, they conquered the world. You had the same, uh, you had uh the same stupid building in Leningrad as you had in Nairobi. Okay, so in Leningrad, you've got a flat roof when you get nine feet of snow. That doesn't work. You're gonna have a leaky roof. In Nairobi, I've been in Nairobi, I've been to the uh Jomo Kenyati University. You have uh again another Bauhaus building with huge plate glass windows. The sun comes through these windows, and you've got a uh a solar oven. This is not appropriate for the equator, it's not appropriate for St. Petersburg, it's just an ideology. And as an ideology, I think I can uh deduce it from the facts of Gropius' life. That was the third book.
SPEAKER_03:What year does Bauhaus actually start being uh used?
SPEAKER_01:Well, the famous book is uh nine uh building is 1970s, the Fagus uh shoe factory. 1907. 1907 is a crucial year for modernity. It's the same year that Picasso did uh Les Dames d'Avignon. It's also the same year that uh Pius X wrote his uh encyclical on modernism. So it's a quick this is a turning point. It's a turning point. Uh and uh that's the first building. And Gropius founded a school of design, uh Bauhaus, and eventually he was run out of town by Hitler. Uh and so Bauhaus split up. Uh he went to uh Harvard, and his assistant went to uh Moscow, and between the two of them, between the East and the West, Bauhaus took over the entire world, especially after after World War II.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's what that's what I was going to ask you because something happens to architecture after World War II, where even the church itself stops building these beautiful cathedrals and and church architecture changes, and everything kind of just I don't know, everything just kind of flattens out and just gets you get start getting churches in the room. I don't know if that's a theological issue or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:It is theological. You know what the uh the priest didn't realize is that there was a theology to Bauhaus that was antithetical to the Catholic faith. And so uh nobody understood this. No, nobody understood. They they they the big push came with Vatican II, where we had nothing to fear uh mod about from the modern world, and so we uh indulged in this experiment of the Bauhaus church and didn't realize there's a message here, and the message is contradicting the gospel you're supposed to be preaching. What was this term for those buildings? He called them the von machine, and I called the title on book as Living Machines or Machines for Living in. Man is a Machine. This is the Enlightenment. It's a reduction of man to uh, as a as I said, a machine. Uh and uh it didn't work, didn't work. So we had to, you know, in in Philadelphia, the modernists took over the city, city planning uh around 1950, something like that. They were all back from World War II. They all felt as if they had conquered the world, and they start building buildings for the sharecroppers. Black sharecroppers are coming up from North Carolina, and it doesn't work. It's not working. Same thing with uh the Robert Taylor homes in Chicago, all across uh the northern cities of the United States, the cities start building these uh high-rise warehouses for Negroes from the South. They're called the Projects. Bill Cosby grew up in one of them. And it didn't work. It didn't, it didn't work. Uh there was a kind of materialism there that kind of snuffed out the spirituality, the Protestant, you know, kind of emotional spirituality they brought up from the South. They started acting like machines. They started acting like sex machines, as James Brown would say. Uh, and the whole thing fell apart. Their families fell apart. And what would you, well, the legacy is the gang violence that still exists in Chicago.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I there's this uh 10-part series on PBS about New York, where it starts in the 1600s with the the Dutch settling in New York, and it just takes you through all the way up to 9-11. So it was a documentary they put up put out right after 9-11. But when you get into that period after World War II and you have Robert Moses reconstructing all the roadways in New York, and he's basically breaking up these beautiful, like uh Italian little ghettos that you had of like this beautiful Italian culture, this Irish culture, and they come in with eminent domain, they put these like hideous highway systems through, they move all the black people up to these projects in the in the bad areas of the city. They're they're elevated off the ground, so they have no connection to the to the reality, you know, where they live. So they start treating the area like crap and all this, but it's such a a wild thing to watch, and then you start getting people moving out to the suburbs.
SPEAKER_01:That happens at the same time. So you're the the common denominator here is called social engineering, and there were basically two forms of social engineering after World War II. What we're talking about, I cover in my book, The Slaughter of Cities, which is basically urban planning, urban renewal. And I said it was ethnic cleansing, uh primarily ethnic cleansing of the Catholic, uh, Catholic ethnic neighborhoods. Uh and the main instrument of the ethnic cleansing was the black people that came up from the South. You just put them in there. Any immigrant group is, and they were an immigrant group. They these people in Chicago talked about Mississippi the way my parents talked about Ireland or Germany. Okay, and they came up there, and the immediate result when you move into this kind of deracinated immigrant society is gangs, gangs formed. And the gangs became then the lumpen proletariat engaging in random violence that's going to drive the Catholics out of their neighborhood. So it's bauhouse for the Negroes in the city, uh Levitown for the people in the suburbs. So when you're when you're in Chicago, you're Polish or you're Irish or Italian, when you get to the suburbs, you're white. And that was the whole point because this social engineering was race-based. The Krucher year was 54. Brown versus school board, where uh they strike down segregation in the South. The same year they do Berman versus Parker, which is the urban renewal decision, which basically says the city has the right of eminent domain and they can take whatever they want, and you have no recourse. It was named after a guy, probably a Jew by the name of Berman, who had a clothing store in Washington. There was nothing wrong with his building. He said, I want to be here. If you want to rejoin, rebuild the neighborhood, I want to be here. I want to sell them clothes. No, you're not part of the plan, and they tore his building down. So this is the twin, the twin evils of social engineering were urban renewal, ethnic cleansing, and the other one was sexual liberation as a form of political control. And I was I was a guinea pig in this experiment. I was in my mother's womb when the Kinsey Report came out. I was born four months after the Kinsey Report. This is the bad sign that I was born under. I I grew up in Levittown, by the way.
SPEAKER_03:In Long Island? Yeah, Long Island. Good.
SPEAKER_01:That's the first you were the first pioneer for Levitown.
SPEAKER_03:Um, so uh well, okay. So let's let's touch on race a little bit because I know I've seen you and Nick Fuentes go back and forth about the race thing. Um because once they break up those Catholic communities and you do get the suburbs, doesn't a white culture actually form though? Like like because you you do you did see there would be like Italian culture, there would be Irish culture, there would be you know German culture, and when especially in the city, they would kind of stay grouped together and they would stay amongst their own. But once they do move out to the suburbs, there like doesn't a new culture kind of get developed at that point? Yes, you're right.
SPEAKER_01:It's called American. So I am biracial, okay? I am not white, I'm biracial, I'm Irish and German. This is inevitable. Okay, when you bring these people over here, it's inevitable that they're going to get together and they're you're gonna see intermarriage. The the thing that explains this in terms of American ethnicity is something called the triple melting pot, which says after three generations, every immigrant group becomes uh one of three groups Protestant, Catholic, Jew. Now, this was uh developed in the 1940s. There were basically no Muslims here at that point, but it could be expanded to include Muslims in places like Dearborn, because I think they're they're the rising group. So I I would claim that uh after I'm third generation. By third generation, they say that's when your religion becomes your ethnicity. My grandfather was born in Ireland. He was just he came over here, he was an Irishman from the day he got here until the day he died. My father was second generation, he didn't know who he was, he couldn't decide whether he was Irish or American. By the time I came around, it was clear that I and my generation, we were all Americans, but we were a particular kind of American, we were Catholic Americans, as opposed to Protestant Americans, as opposed to Jewish Americans. That's interesting.
SPEAKER_03:So I I I work construction. I am I my my father's Italian, my mom's Irish, right? Now I work with all these Italian guys, and they would speak Italian around me and they would they would laugh at me and they go, yo, you stupid American boy, because you don't understand Italian, you know, like my father understood it, but by the time you get to me, I don't understand it. Now, my kids, my wife's German, I'm Italian. My kids have they're they're just Catholic at this point. That's right.
SPEAKER_01:That's what it comes down to. My mother, I I I saw I'm learning German. My grandfather, my German grandfather's living with me, so I came home after my first week of learning German in high school. I said, say something in in German. And he said, Letschte nach Hani Moin des Schwamm Letzte, which I couldn't understand. That's that's the dialect. Okay, I had to learn that on my own. My mother was 100% German, she didn't speak any German. Because the dialect that my grandfather spoke didn't make any sense. It was so peculiar that it didn't work. You couldn't learn, you couldn't learn German by learning that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. The guys I work with, if they they were Sicilian, so if they went to Italy, it's a totally different, you know, especially because they came here in the in the in the you know early, late 19 uh mid to early 1900s. So um, so what is the disagreement that you always have with Nick? Because I I I see you, I see you guys going back and forth a lot. I never actually got which Nick are you talking about?
SPEAKER_01:Uh there are multiple Nicks out there, there are multiple Nick Fuentes.
SPEAKER_03:But I always see you guys kind of butting heads on the race issue, and I've never seen what the disagreements are.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so sometimes Nick Fuentes, so when he's online, he's white. Okay, when the cops show up at his house to because of some complaint, he walks out and says, I'm a Mexican.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then he also says he's Catholic, so he's got this multiple personality difference. Disorder. I have multiple personality disorder because I'm Irish and German. But the American kind of brought it together. So I'm saying I so it happened when he brought on uh Jared Taylor. Jared Taylor is a white guy. He's a race guy. His job is to uh uh basically turn Jews into white people so they can become invisible. That's always what the American Renaissance was doing. And now Nick starts spouting this racial line, and I'm trying to explain to him that this is not compatible with Catholicism. Race is not an ethnic group, it's an ideology, it's a category of the mind that got imposed for political purposes on the proletarian, on the working class in Virginia at the beginning of the 17th century. The slaves there were, they were Celtic slaves and there were African slaves. And they got together for Bacon's rebellion and they nearly overthrew the rule of the plantation owner class. And they decided they're not going to let that happen. So they instituted terms like white and black to divide the working class, giving whites privilege. There is always a value judgment placed on white and black. There's no value judgment placed on Italian or Irish or German. That is what it is. But when you come to white and black, either it's white supremacy over black people or it's black supremacy over white people, and it always leads to conflict, and it's incompatible with the Catholic faith. It's not incompatible with Protestantism because these they all had state churches. And so if you were an English Protestant, which is basically what Samuel Huntington said was our identity as Americans, an Anglo-Protestant, you came from an island where everybody looked the same. That was a state church. Yeah. That's different than the Catholic Church, which is universal and has uh, you know, branches all over the world.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, if you if you're worshiping at the same altar, that's that's infinitely more important than what you look like. It's like the when the Spanish come to uh Mexico and South America, they kind of form this mestizo culture because they're at the same altar. So there's really no no no distinction between Gentile or Jew or Greek, you know, it's like that kind of happens. But but if we're in our modern uh in modern America, yeah, yeah, because I do see an issue with just just breaking down between black and white, because uh white Protestant is very different than white Catholic. But I do I do think there's some some big cultural differences, especially now that we do have this mass immigration issue with people are coming pouring into the floodgates, and you're you're now in you know, on in what would have typically been a white suburban area uh in America is now kind of mixing up with all these other ethnicities. Now, as a Catholic, like should we want like what should we want our kids to like I don't know, like is it isn't there something to this like that we should be concerned with with preserving what American culture, white American culture has has I'm not sure what white American culture is, uh uh, but I I think I know what Protestant American culture is, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm not I'm uh what look whether we think we should preserve it or not, it's going to pass away because uh I've I've been talking about the the three republics. Okay, the first republic in America began 1781 with the Constitution, ended in 1861 with the Civil War. Second Republic begins. Some things do not pass into the next republic. Slavery did not pass into the Second Republic, it the Civil War ended slavery. Second Republic, 1865 to 1945, that that ends with World War II, the victory in World War II. Everything is an 80-year cycle here. And so 1945, you have certain things. The Holocaust narrative is the foundational myth or story of the Third Republic. Americans are great people, they save Jews from the Nazis and so on and so forth. That justifies uh social engineering, blah, blah, blah. We are now at the end of the Third Republic, 19, 2025, 80 years. And now I'm saying one of the things that's not going to pass into the fourth republic is conservatism. Okay, Judeo-Christian morality. Nobody believes a Judeo-Christian morality anymore because of the Jews' response to the overturning of Roe versus Wade when they said abortion's a fundamental Jewish value. Protestantism is not going to pass into the fourth republic. The churches are evaporating now. One of the rising things rising now is the Muslim population. Places like Dearborn, they had big disturbances in Dearborn, which were orchestrated uh to for effect. I'm saying we have to understand this movement of history and uh what is going to stay behind and what's going to move forward.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we've been we've been talking a lot about like you can sense we're coming to the end of a story right now, right? So yes, you you you have you had the um you have you had the American Revolution is that first period, the Civil War is that second period, and the and World War II, the Holocaust narrative comes out of that third period. Now the two the two previous still do hold some kind of a foundational role in America, but we but what comes next? Like, are are we looking at another event to have uh like a myth to base this next 80-year period on?
SPEAKER_01:You want me to nominate a myth? No, no, no.
SPEAKER_03:I'm I'm worried they're going to create one, right?
SPEAKER_01:Like that's they're trying to create one right now. The fundament the fundamentalization that's going on right now is the government and the Jewish foundations, like the Shillman Foundation, are promoting Islamophobia right now to distract everyone from the Jews' genocide in Gaza. That is the whole point of this. The Jews are losing control of the narrative, they're upset, they're getting hysterical, everything is anti-Semitic, they're going crazy, they want to ban everybody. Uh, and I'm saying that uh the so at this point, the the group that kind of was the dominant group that held everything together, namely the Protestants, they're disappearing. You got a new group rising, the Muslims. We have no idea how the Muslims are going to assimilate because they've never done it before. So I'm I'm I gave a talk uh uh at a mosque in in uh Dallas, and I'm sitting in the lobby on that side. It's not it's an Islamic center. On this side, the right side is the mosque. You go into the mosque, on the left side is a basketball court, and there's a kid in a wearing a jalabi, you know, the long uh harab shirt that they wear, doing jump shots. Well, this is a form of assimilation. So I'd like to say to my Muslim uh friends, who's going to determine what type of American you are? Is it gonna be the NBA? You're gonna have those Muslim kids wearing gold chains? You're gonna you're gonna idolize Sean Kemp? Do you remember Sean Kemp? He's a local boy. Came from uh, he played uh the NBA, came from Elkhart, Indiana, which is right next here, next door here. He won the uh championship of illegitimate children, fathering illegitimate children, fathered 19 illegitimate children when he was in the NBA. Is that the role model you're gonna have?
SPEAKER_03:Uh it's probably gonna be hip-hop and like because I think Muslims are going to assimilate more towards black culture, and that's the that's kind of what I'm getting at.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly, you're exactly right. That is exactly right, because they're not white, okay? And so I have a my my why my oldest son lives in Dearborn, and they pick up the next generation, picks up everything bad about America, yeah, which is like fast cars, okay. Fast cars doing 100 miles an hour in Dearborn the wrong way down a one-way street. This is this is now Yemeni culture in in uh in uh Dearborn. And the guy who did that he just died, you know, killed himself and uh three other uh Muslims, probably Yemenis, by hitting a tree at 100 miles an hour.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I I work with a Muslim guy who I have some really good conversations with. Um, and the one thing we can always bond on is how the Jews are behind everything. So we live in New York, and he's like, he's like, I he's like, Oh, my Muslim friends are all excited about Mam Dani. They don't know the Jews on him. He's like, We gotta do it, mayor. We don't have a Muslim, you know, because he's he's telling me, he's like, Look, you you, you know, I he's he's from uh Turkey, he's Turkish, and he's like, uh, you know, we you know, you think you have a a Muslim government there, but in reality, they're taking money from from Israel too, and they're kind of like, and you saw that with uh with us with Assyria when they take out Assad and they put their own guy in now. Because when it comes down to it, a lot of a lot of people, even in Muslim nations, are blackmailable and people want money or they're bribable and things like that. So it does seem like there's this I don't know. It it is funny that that's the one thing we can we can we can do.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's true. I said we should have an alliance, a Catholic Muslim alliance, because you have a common enemy. Is that bad? Is it bad to say that?
SPEAKER_03:I I mean it's the one thing we we really do seem to bond on at work.
SPEAKER_01:So it's you better believe it. And I'm saying, you know, they're the Muslims are shocked when I say that, but I mean, you know, I think that the Mamba Mond Mamdami election was a watershed in American life. This is a man who campaigned as a Muslim. All the Jews, the ADL was calling out all their troops to make sure he didn't get elected. He beat them. Yeah. He beat them in New York City. Can you imagine that? Beating the Jews in New York City? And he did it. So I'm saying this is the beginning, a harbinger of this new era, a harbinger of the Fourth Republic, the emergence of a Muslim uh American identity. So in his acceptance piece, the first thing he talked to, man, he mentions was Eugene Debs, the socialist. So here he is. This man really did something very significant. I mean, if you were talking about the logical progression from the Biden administration to the next Democratic administration, this guy should have had a bone through his nose and purple hair and a beard and a dress, because that's what politics was. It was all gender politics at the Democratic Party. And he single-handedly turned it around, turned the Democratic Party back to its roots as the representative of the working man. That was a stroke of genius on Mamdani's part. And God bless him for doing it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Um, okay, so okay, so now you the oh go ahead, Rob.
SPEAKER_02:I was just gonna say, did do you think it's possible to actually like make an alliance with with a group that has a doctrine like Takia, where they where you know it it allows them to lie, you know, morally in their eyes?
SPEAKER_01:Didn't did Mamdami get elected or not? This is proof that it's possible. This is proof that it's possible.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's it's a rough one, man. I don't know. Like like part of me thinks like a lot of the hostility between Catholics and Muslims is caused by the Jews, but at the same time, you gotta think back to the crusades, and and we kind of are mortal enemies with one another, too.
SPEAKER_01:No, look, I I just did an article. So it's the immediate thing, which is Dearborn, I covered that, and the the the feds who are trying to foment violence there. But the deep grammar here of this is Tolkien, the Lord of the Rings. Do you remember the Lord? Have you read The Lord of the Rings? The culmination, the grand battle is Minas Tirith. Yep. Minus Tirith is Vienna, 1683. Orcs are Turks. These are these people from the East. It's kind of like the orc is a combination of the Turk in 1683 and the Soviet army in 1945. They're bad people coming from the east, and they're going to take take us over. Okay. Okay, I loved, I love that idea. I love the story of Vienna and Jan Zobieski and the cavalry sweeping down from the Vienna woods and saving Vienna. Uh, it's a great story. When I did a book tour in Poland for Libido Dominandi, the Polish edition, and every every speech I gave all over Poland, I said, the West has failed. Everybody gets a little down. And I said, but that's not the end of the story. The end of the story came when Jan Zobieski saved Vienna, and all the Poles would jump up and cheer. They they like that story. Okay, but it's not 1683 anymore. And do you know why the Polish cavalry is not going to save us anymore? Because the because the you're right. I mean, so let's say the modern day equivalent, some type of dramatic external change. The main reason is the Turks, the orcs are inside the city now.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The cavalry charge only works because there was some brave Austrian who stood there with a pike when the Perks blew a hole in the wall and basically prevented those types, prevented the orcs from coming into the city. He stood in the breach, and and that allowed the Polish cavalry to extern to solve that problem from the outside. That's over now. Why is it over? Why is Ireland in such a bad situation now? My friend Gemma is like Denethor. She's saying the West has failed. She's ready to throw herself on the funeral pyre. Because the Irish stopped having children. The Germans stopped having children. The Italians stopped having children. And not only did they stop having children, they killed a lot of their own children. And so I said to Gemma, for every Irish baby that you people aborted, God sent a Muslim and an African to take their place because nature abhors a vacuum. So put down your Molotov cocktail, Gemma, and start thinking along spiritual lines.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's kind of what I want to get into here because yes, the the orcs are inside the gates at this point, right?
SPEAKER_01:Now you're absolutely right.
SPEAKER_03:You're absolutely right. Now, what what you just said is actually kind of how I see it. I see it as we because they didn't fight their way in, we welcomed them in.
SPEAKER_01:Now, how now nature abhors a vacuum? They the I they killed their own children. You think that do you think God didn't notice when that happened?
SPEAKER_03:Not just that, but don't don't you see instead like because you're talking about an alliance, but don't you kind of see this as like the Assyrians coming in to destroy the temple at this point? Like, do you do you not see like God's judgment coming upon us?
SPEAKER_01:Because I see him God Islam is the scourge of God. That's always what it'd been. Whenever the Christians would lose or fight each other, the Turks would move up the Danube. Okay, they're inside the wall now. Yeah, what are we gonna do? And I'm saying, I in this, I see what Hegel would call the cunning of reason. Okay, who did this to us? It was basically the Jews, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, Alejandro Majorcus used to be the head of it. He let the board open the border, anybody, millions of people crossed the border because that was his plan. The Jews want to wreck the dominant culture of the United States and every European country. Yeah, that's not the end of the story. What's the cunning of reason? God brings about his plan by allowing the wicked to do evil and then turning it into good. So what's the story here? Let's take England, for example. The degenerate culture in England now, 48% of all pregnancies get end in abortion in England. You got these sluts with their tattoos, you got the soccer hooligans, they're all following Tommy Robinson, uh, who wants to blow up the uh the buses with the immigrants on them. Those people are more conservative when it comes to sexual morality than the natives are. And that's the cunning of reason, and that's the basis for what we are doing now in England. We're working with the Muslims. My good friend Sean Norton, the Irishman living in London, is having a lot of success talking to the Muslims, supporting Dr. Rehiani Ali, who was banned, kicked out of the medical uh national health service because she defended Palestinians in an op-ed piece. That's wrong. And I'm saying we have a commonality here, not just a common enemy, but a commonality in our understanding of the moral law. If we can make this clear, I think we have the possibility to turn the evil, which is this weaponized migration, it's an evil, I'm not gonna deny that, turn it into a good in an unexpected way.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's an interesting uh okay. So, okay, so let's get let's get back to some of your work again. Um, so what makes you start writing the Jewish revolutionary spirit? The war in Iraq. So it was what I think.
SPEAKER_01:2003, uh the Jews, they're called neoconservatives at this point. They take over our foreign policy and they uh uh engage American American treasure and lives in a project that only is supposed it benefits Israel. It's supposed to benefit Israel, had no benefit whatsoever for the United States of America. At that point, the scales fell from my eyes, and I realized we got a Jewish problem. They have just taken over our foreign policy. There's no way to get around it.
SPEAKER_03:And now you must have been like a lone voice crying. You better believe it.
SPEAKER_01:You better believe it. You better believe how lonely it was back then.
SPEAKER_03:I can't imagine.
SPEAKER_01:I was excommunicated from the conservative movement because I I uh went to the Sam Francis Memorial at the National Press Club, and I said uh gave him the thesis of the Jewish revolutionary spirit, and the people ran screaming from the room. Taki was there. It was like the the paleocon aristocracy, Taki's there. We're all gonna be, we're all gonna be arrested. Stop, stop, you know, and that was that was the moment. The moment was I was ahead of my time. Yeah, I was ahead of that. That was 2008. Now it's not lonely anymore. There are plenty of I'll I'll I'll I'll make a statement. If you're if you want to have any credibility with the the the younger generation, the 20-year-olds, you have to address the Jewish question. And the man who did it was Nick Fuentes, that's why he's got this following.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's not just that, it but like I I think what you were doing back then, because I remember you being ostracized, but you weren't just ostracized from conservative politics, it was the church, the like the the the mainstream church, like you were persona non grata, you're right, and you you were not allowed, like they they they shunned you, you know. And I remember seeing you kind of realize. Appear during the no fat movement. Like I remember you being involved. Like talking, these were these were secular guys who decided to like stop looking at pornography for the month of November. And I remember you popping up in those conversations back then.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Right. You're absolutely right. So I was ahead of my time with another book that was called Libido Dominandi, Sexual Liberation and Political Control. I wrote that book came out in 2003. I was so ahead of my time that the most significant thing to ratify that thesis happened one year after the book came out. And that was when the Israeli troops went into Ramallah, they took over the TV stations and they started broadcasting pornography over the TV stations. That was proof that sexual liberation was a form of political control. Or else you have to say that the Israelis want to bring freedom to the Palestinians because pornography is freedom if you're an American. So that was and that's so I had to convince people and they say, nah, that you're crazy, it's crazy. And then suddenly there came a time when an entire generation is addicted to pornography because of their cell phones.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And they know they are a slave to their passions. And when I say uh sexual iseration is a form of control, they understand immediately what I'm talking about. When I say that a man has as many masters as he has vices, which is what St. Augustine said, they know immediately, and sometimes they stop watching pornography like that, just because of that. Just because the the scales fall from that, yeah, it's a form of control. I understand why I'm so miserable now. I'm not going to do this anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, Augustine says it, right? Like you're only as free as you are free from your vices. I mean, it's that's right. It's like if if if if something has a grip on you like that, it's it's it is absolutely a form of control. So yeah, and I so I remember seeing you popping up in those in those conversations, and then I came across Logos Rising. Now, Logos Rising, the opening chapters, you you kind of broke this this um, I don't know, just my my my whole thinking about evolution and just how ridiculous some of the stuff they say about evolution is when you're even when you're breaking down how an eye forms you're like they're saying it's a cell that can receive light, but that's not sight. Like, like how can nature choose a gene that doesn't exist if you're talking about you know survival of the fitness?
SPEAKER_01:It's like that's exactly right. How can have that selection process for something that doesn't exist? That's impossible, and it comes down, it comes down to it's biased in Logos Rising. Parmenides said that which is cannot come from that which is not. That is absolutely true, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and you and you go through I I gave three copies of that book away because I I was just the way you went through just explaining all of like human civilization, how it comes about, and then when you get to the Greeks, you you explain how the uh like the Greek philosophers are all they're they're wrestling with this idea of logos because they know there's some kind of like rationality to the universe, and then Paul goes and tries to preach at the Areop uh Area, what is it, the Areopagus? Or yes, the Areopagus. Yeah, he goes to preach there, and then and he talks about the unknown god, and they kind of laugh him out of there, but like, but that Saint John like really took that and and he and he he understood the Greek mind in a in an amazing way, and he was able to bring that bring that home with the in the beginning was the logo.
SPEAKER_01:He understood that the world was changing, okay. That went as soon as Saint Paul said that dream about that Greek kid saying, Come over here, the world was going to change, and you couldn't just limit it to these Hebrews. Uh, and then so as a result, you can't hand them the gospel of Saint Matthew, which is this long Hebrew genealogy with names they never heard before. And so I say I speculate that St. John wrote his gospel in light of St. Paul's failure at the Areopagus, and an understanding now we've got to have a new approach to this new group of people, and this approach is going to be in Greek. We're going to write this gospel in Greek, and we're going to begin with the most fundamental Greek term, which is logos, rationality. That's seven pages of English equivalence in the little El Hart uh Scott Liddell uh Greek English dictionary. Okay, and he begins by saying, in the beginning, there was the word. See, the problem is he can't use English.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:In the beginning, there was a word, imprintio erod verbum, am anfang vadas word. They're all the same. And none of them has the resonance that the word logos had. So I had to change it. I had to resurrect the word Logos, bring it back, and say, in the beginning, there was Logos. In other words, there was an order to the universe that was inescapable. There was never chaos. There was always an order to the universe. And Logos was with God, and Logos is God. Now, that is one of the most profound statements in all of human history. Logos is God. And I tried to talk that way because I wrote Logos Rising based on my experience of going with Iran, to Iran. One of the great experiences of my life, thanks to my late friend Nadir Talabzada, who was a genius who bring at bringing people together. So they brought me over there, and I'm thinking we now can talk to people in Iran. We can talk to people all over the world. We have the language, you have the technology. What are we going to talk about? You know, I'll buy three. How much do they cost? Maybe something more sophisticated. Or let's put it this way: is there a basis for some type of universal consensus among all of mankind right now? And if there is, I'm saying the only thing that fills that requirement is the term logos. Because we are all rational creatures, and rationality is not uh optional.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We have to be rational.
SPEAKER_03:You you think back to like uh when when 9-11 happens and we go into Iraq and we do all this stuff, and it's like George Bush is like, we're gonna bring democracy to these people, and you're like, What? You're gonna bring democracy to these people? Like, we could you imagine if we would have brought the gospel to these people? It would have been just just such a but you how do you bring the gospel?
SPEAKER_01:Let's talk. I want to talk to these people, and God bless them. The Iranians were great people. They I could talk to them. I was I was the first time I'm there, I'm one of like three million people were celebrating the revel 1979 revolution. I'm surrounded by women and charters. And they start saying, Alo Akbar. And I understand. They start saying something like, uh, I don't understand. So I turned to my translator, I said, What are they saying? He said, Death to America.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:They have are geniuses when it comes, uh comes to uh separating the regime from the people. They understood that perfectly, and we could talk one person to another. That was the great thing about going to Iran.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, so they didn't they didn't just see an American and think you're death, like death to you. They would talk to you and they saw the American machine as something totally different.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, that's a government. I I didn't I didn't I wasn't in favor of the war invading Iraq. We we are captives to a government that doesn't represent our interests. The fundamental issue throughout the world right now is representative democracy. We don't have it. Yeah, every system is basically you take money from the rich folk, but you have to pander to the people, you get the votes from the people, and as soon as you come into office, you do what the rich folk want.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh I voted for Donald Trump, but that's what he did.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, okay. So look, we uh I'm I want I want to promote your new book here now, and then I want to talk the Jewish revolutionary spirit, and I want to talk the Holocaust narrative on uh behind the paywall. And we will release it on YouTube, but you guys gotta come and you gotta put because I don't know where we're gonna go with it. But uh your new book that you just came out with is called Um Walking with a Bible and a Gun. What what what got you to even start this one?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I had a guy write to me and said uh he he could trace his ancestors back to 1680 something, you know. So he said, then I became a Catholic. So now I know what it means to be a Catholic, but I don't know what it means to be an American anymore. And I had the sense, like after the identity politics of the Democratic Party, where you, in order to be an American, you had to be uh, you know, a homosexual or a Negro or part of feminist, something like that. These are all identity, identity politics, identity groups. Is there an overarching principle that unites us as Americans? And if so, what is it? That was basically the premise. And I'm I'm right with this is in mind as Trump uh arrives on the scene with a slogan called Make America Great Again. What does that mean? Is so he obviously invoked some type of American identity. He invoked America first, which I agree with uh in the first election. I uh he appeared in South Bend, Indiana, biggest crowd ever to assemble in South Bend, Indiana, and he was there, and he talked about uh carrier air conditioning, moving his plant to Mexico, and everybody there, the working class there, and they jumped up and cheered. So, what does it mean? So, this is why I wrote the book. In other words, also uh I read a book by a uh a Frenchman by the name of Immanuel Tot. The book is called La Defaite de l'Occident. Uh, hasn't been translated in English yet, but uh he said basically the American Empire is disappearing, is going to fall, because the hidden grammar of the American Empire is Protestantism, and Protestantism is evaporating. Yeah. And I said, that's true. He he understands what he's doing. This is a long line of Frenchmen like De Tocqueville, people like that who come over and try and interpret try to understand what America is. But then he he goes in to say, well, what's Protestantism? And he goes down the rat rabbit hole known as Max Weber, which is a waste of time. And I said, if you want to understand the mind of English-speaking people, you have to understand poetry and literature. And if you want to understand the mind of America, the American founders, all the way up to the present, you have to read a certain poem. And that poem is called Paradise Lost by John Milton. And if you want to understand that poem, you have to read the beginning of it, where Satan wakes up in hell and he gives a speech that is one of the greatest speeches in American literature, you know, and it ends the speech by saying, better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. Well, you know, your American heart starts beating faster when you hear that, you know. That's that's who we are. We're all Satanist.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The Haiti grammar of America is Satanism.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's a that's a that's a it sounds like a harsh thing you're saying, but the whole founding of our country is built on revolution, right? So, like if you if you understand what um what a culture actually is, it has to do with like the altar you worship at, but also taking on the the patrimony that was given to you from your forefathers and stuff like that. And our country is founded on this revolt from their forefathers. So revolution is kind of like baked into the the story of who we are, and then you have you and you know what? I I feel like people should go watch your interview with Patrick Coffin because you do a really good job of getting into the book and just and discussing Protestantism and just how this there because they don't have confession, they're just this this constant like uh uh debasement that they go through, and then they have to have a revival. And it was a really, really well done interview. So if you guys want like a a full a full expiation on this, but I really think I mean this is the next book I'm buying of yours that I'm going to read. I can't wait to get into it. But um, yeah, so you guys can get that on fidelitypress.org.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Have to go to fidelitypress.org. I've been banned from from Amazon, fidelitypress.org. The the link should be in the description.
SPEAKER_03:So um, you were pretty much like one of the first to get banned. Like there was there was a few years there where I like we couldn't even I was afraid to even have you on the YouTube show, so I was afraid to ask you to come on. And uh and and this interview, I I kind of had to do a little bit of the backstory with you because I've been watching you for so long and I've never heard anybody really go through everything, and we missed a whole bunch of books, also. But I definitely the one thing you really changed the way I see everything is on the Jewish question, and it made me start thinking deeper about this stuff, and then I started thinking about it theologically, and it's been a topic we've been discussing a lot on the show, so I I'd I'd like to do that on the other side. So if you guys aren't members, come over to locals. We will release clips of it on the main channel. We don't want to kill this interview. This interview is amazing, but I think I think it's gonna be worth coming over there to see the rest of it. Uh, is there anything else you want to uh uh uh promote before we leave here, Dr. Jones?
SPEAKER_01:No, that's it. The Walking with a Bible a gun is the most recent book.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, guys, go check that out. FidelityPress.org. Uh, I promise you, if you've never read a Dr. E. Michael Jones book, there's there's nothing like them. They're they're just filled with things you wouldn't. Uh I I I'm one of your uh your your biggest fans, so I will never not promote you. And then and maybe we'll discuss the our difference uh different approach on the liturgy, also. I want there's a couple of things I want to talk about over there. So all right, Rob, take us out. Yeah, he's just gonna kill the feeds to everything. Yeah, uh the liturgy one, you because I know you're you're like we really I've I've grown to love the traditional liturgy, right? And um I know uh people are always asking me uh asking people to push back on you about the liturgy, but one of the one of my main critiques of the Novus Ordo liturgy comes from you in that once the Novus Ordo is actually instituted, it already begins a fracture because you no longer go to your community parish, you're now going to look for the local conservative parish, or you're going to look for the local liberal parish based on your your um your theological preference, because there's so much variety allowed in the novus ordo that it kind of fractures the community just to begin with, even with even before the war between the traditional liturgy and the novus ordo begins.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you're talking about uh uh another issue. We have to get this in the proper order. The problem with is the demise of the geographical parish. The Catholic Church is based on geographical parishes. Okay, and that means everyone, the pastor of that parish, has responsibility for the soul of every single person in that geographical area, even if they're not Catholics. And this is the basis of a community. You have to live close to each other, and that's why you have a geographical parish. Now, this was rigorously enforced in Philadelphia when I was growing up. You did not go to other parishes. And when the when the uh first the uh the folk mass started, like around the late 60s, uh, it was started by medical mission nuns. They had their own convent there, and everybody started going, just out of curiosity. Like this is every I had some the sense something new is in the air, they go there, and Kroll shut it down because it was drawing people out of their geographical parish. Now, the main thing that's drawing people out of their geographical parish right now is a trident mass. That's what's going on. It is it is it is destroying community, it's replacing community with society. It's to use Mox Weber, I just badmouth the guy, but to use his distinction, it's a distinction between Gazellschaft, which is society, and Gemeinschaft, which is a club. You're turning re you're turning the Catholic Church into a club where you get together with people like you. That's not the way it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be people in your geographical area. Uh that's the way it's supposed to be.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Um, but at the same time, if I took my children to my local parish, I I'm fairly convinced they would lose their faith just from the things that they see at that local parish. I mean, it's so it's so degraded that it it doesn't seem Catholic, it's Protestant essentially. And it's it's the the reason we will drive the 45 minutes to the traditional parish is because my children get the faith. It's not it's not for anything else, it's that my children there's the the symbolism of the traditional liturgy instills the faith in in in you when when and I think that's something that especially Rob and I. Rob and I grew up in the Novus Ordo, and both of us lost our faith for a period because it was just taken so unseriously. Where where I take my children to mass, it's a 40-minute ride, and yes, I'm meeting like-minded people, but I think I think meeting like-minded people is a way to build a community amongst the mayhem that is is the world today. Where if you don't find like-minded people, your children are just out in the world and they don't have a single Catholic friend to talk to.
SPEAKER_01:They don't have a So if if you say there were abuses in the liturgy after Vatican II, I have to agree with you. Yeah, of course. Okay, the the solution to the problem is to cure the abuse or to get rid of the abuse rather than create to create a parallel structure. And I think that's what happened. I think that basically at a certain point, I look, I don't know, I don't know what Rotzinger. Rotzinger's first of all, it became started out with John Paul II, uh, who didn't want to after he excommunicated uh the four bishops that Lefebvre consecrated, he didn't want to lose the people who are attached to the mass, so he made a special uh agreement that was limited. And then Rotzinger expanded it basically in saying, you know, whatever you want, do it that way. I don't understand. Uh there's a complexity to Ratzinger that I could talk for hours about. Uh and I don't uh I think he he was a guy who was really the classic passive aggressive guy.
SPEAKER_02:Really?
SPEAKER_01:I think he was classic passive aggressive, and I think the culmination, the best expression expression of that was when he quit. That was passive aggressive, uh, aggressive behavior against the Catholic Church. Like when I tried to quit the show with you, Ant.
SPEAKER_03:Wait, I think I think that's our next episode. I would love to talk to you for hours about Ratzinger because that's so I've never heard anybody describe him that way.
SPEAKER_02:That's so as a Minnesotan. I definitely uh connect with that side of Benedict.
SPEAKER_01:You passive aggressive people up there in Minnesota.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, we are.
SPEAKER_01:We could we could talk. I have a long story I could talk about tell you about Rotzinger.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I know you don't have too much talk because you said you don't want to you can't really stay too long. Do you want me?
SPEAKER_01:Do you want me to talk about Rotzinger? Do you want me to I I want to get to the I want to let me just give
SPEAKER_03:If you see time for that, I'll stay all night.
SPEAKER_01:Let me let me just give you the elevator speech. All right? Let's go to 1947 in Germany. Ratzinger's 20 years old. Do you know whether you're hungry when you're 20 years old? You know what you know whether you're hungry when you're two days old. All right? And what is the winner of 46-47 called in German history? It's called das Hungerjahr. That's the year where Morgenthal, de Jude Morgenthal, the Guns Deutschland in Ein Kartoffel Ackerfall Wandel. That's what Goebbels said, and it was true. The Jew Morgenthal wants to turn Germany into one big potato patch. The Jew Morgenthal, who was Secretary of Treasury under Roosevelt, was going to starve the German people to death. And the man who stood up to him was Cardinal Franks of Cologne, a heroic figure, an old man by this point, and he stood up and he said, if there's a warehouse down the street and it has food in it, and you can't feed your family, you have the right to break into that warehouse and take the food. That is not theft. If there's a train with coal in it, you have a right to take that coal. He was a heroic figure. He stood up to the American occupying power when they had they were flat on their backs, had no defenses whatsoever, except for the moral authority of the Catholic Church, and the United States backed down.
SPEAKER_03:And this is after the war.
SPEAKER_01:This is after the war. And then he said the magic formula: this is Jewish vengeance. And Jewish vengeance shouldn't have control of our foreign policy. Herbert Hoover said that? Herbert Hoover. Stimson, the secretary, uh Patton was on board before they killed him. There were all this resentment at the way the people were, the United States government was treating the German people. Eisenhower put the German soldiers in camps on the Rhine meadows, the Rheinwiesenlager. No food, no water, no shelter, and they died by the thousands. This is not America, these people were saying. And so Frings was the hero, 59. He meets Ratzinger. Ratzinger goes, he asked Ratzinger to go to Rome with him to take part. He'd be his paritus at the Second Vatican Council. And from then on, everything that came out of Frings' mouth was Ratzinger. Ratzinger wrote it. Frings was blind, he couldn't read, couldn't see, and so on and so forth. And what he did was basically overthrow it was a coup d'etat, he overthrew the council. The man who had written the program for the council was Cardinal Ottaviani. It was basically a warning that the church was being threatened by two alien powers, the Soviet Union, obviously everybody knew that, and then he named America.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. And this is trying to manipulate the council, right?
SPEAKER_01:He got the Otaviani Ratchinger got the Otaviani documents thrown out. And then he brings in this new regime. And I'm saying the regime he brought in was the so he accepted the social engineering of the United States of America. And he accepted the Holocaust narrative, and he accepted the guilt that was supposed to be inflicted on the German people by that and imported it into the Catholic Church to the detriment of the entire Catholic Church. I have a friend who's a nun from uh Kenya. I said, Do you know you're responsible for the Holocaust because you're a Catholic? This is ridiculous. But this is this was uh Ratzinger was a man who internalized the commands of his oppressors. Time magazine called him the first American Pope, American Pope. And I think everything we understand now about the church took part largely because of Ratzinger's influence.
SPEAKER_03:And John Paul II also, like you're talking about two men who grew up in the shadow of this event. John Paul's in Poland, and they're being to they're being hit with the Holocaust narrative, and these are the two big figures of the council. So so like we and we and we know he's he is internalizing this guilt, and you do know it's Jewish revenge being put on the German people. It shapes the council, like you can't take the council away from the post-war Holocaust narrative.
SPEAKER_01:Like that is what especially especially Nostratate. Yeah, so the council ends 1965, Nostratate comes out. The Jew rabbi Mark Tannenbaum says this council said that the Jews are no longer responsible for the death of Christ. That was completely wrong. They didn't say that, but the narrative got taken over by Time magazine and the Jews, and it got turned into an attack on the on the Catholic Church. What happened at that very moment? 1965. The Jews are our elder brothers. We're going to cooperate with them. What do the Jews do? They immediately break the code. They the the Catholics had imposed the production code on the Jews in Hollywood beginning in 1933. Uh for 31 years.
SPEAKER_04:The Hayes Code, right?
SPEAKER_01:No, no. This is this is the real code. It's called the production code. The Hayes Code failed miserably. The Hayes Code was Protestant. The production code was Catholic. The Catholic bishops stood up to the Jews. The Jews were in big trouble because they had borrowed a lot of money to finance the technology of talking pictures. Then the depression hit. Then in 1933, the Jews, uh, the Catholics say, Look, uh, if you don't sign this code, you won't get any more loans from Mr. Antonini, who's the head of the Bank of America. And then Cardinal Doherty in Philadelphia initiated a boycott against Warner Brothers Theaters. And Harry, this is Joe Breen saying this. He was in the room. Harry Warner is crying tears as big as horse turds because he's losing$100,000 in Philadelphia alone. And that's going to spread to New York and Cincinnati and St. Louis, and the Jews are going to be out of business. And so they capitulated, but they didn't like it. And for 31 years, they thought, how am I going to get back? How are we going to get back at these people? And guess what they used? The Holocaust. The Holocaust. And the film's called The Porn Broker, and it's a Holocaust porn movie. Because how did they break the code? They had a black uh woman playing a prostitute, takes off her shirt, bare breast, code breaker. And the church couldn't act because the Jews are our elder brothers, and we don't want to, uh they had to go through the Holocaust and blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, the the irony of calling them the elder brothers, they are the elder brother, and that the covenant goes goes to the it never goes to the elder brother, right?
SPEAKER_01:You mean like Cain and Abel? There's a good example. I think the Jews caught on to this. I think they caught on to this. So the diff the difference here is John Paul II did not feel any guilt because of the Holocaust. The Poles were the victim.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So the great moment comes, 1979. He's been six months in office. He goes to Warsaw and celebrates mass in what is technically an atheistic country, and a million Poles show up, and the soldiers are making the sign of the cross, and suddenly he resurrects Polish Catholic ethnic identity, and within 10 years he conquers communism. Then Ratzinger comes to becomes Pope. He goes to Munich. Okay, following the same plan here. First place go to where you come from. He gives a speech on Muslims in Regensburg. That's not the speech. That's not the speech you need to give. You need to talk about what the Jews tried to do to the German people under Morgan's.
SPEAKER_03:I would never have had the courage to do that.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. He's right. You're absolutely right because he's passive aggressive. But this I'm saying this was the moment. He should have gone to Dachau. He should have stood there and he should have said, Where are the gas chambers?
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so this is where I want to go with you. Okay, this is great. Okay, so now because Father Maudley is the first person I ever heard present evidence about like challenging that the that the Holocaust even went down the way they say it did. So I was gonna, I don't, I didn't know if are you uh is your are you saying similar things to him that like like a lot of this stuff was just made up completely and that um the narrative that that comes out after is this tool of or are you just saying it regardless of what happened there, the narrative is the is the point of it.
SPEAKER_01:My point is studying the narrative, it's a narrative like any other. I've got PhD in literature, I study narratives. Okay, so let's talk about the beginning. Eisenhower is heading through Germany, comes across the camp at Ordruf, goes into the camp. There are dead bodies all over the ground now. Is that a reality? That is a category of reality. Yes, there were dead bodies there. There are no gas chambers in Ordruf. No one ever said that there were gas chambers there. How did those people die?
SPEAKER_03:Starvation, right?
SPEAKER_01:Typhus and starvation.
SPEAKER_03:Disease, starvation?
SPEAKER_01:Disease and starvation because the Allies were bombing the rail lines, they destroyed the water supply, and so on and so forth. So, what is what am I talking about here? The dead bodies, those are categories of reality that's real, but what Eisenhower wanted was a propaganda campaign to absolve him from what he was doing to the Germans. And so you get a category of the mind and you impose it on that category of reality. So the next uh stop down the road is Buchenwald, and they send the psychological warfare team in there before anybody, and a guy by the name of C. D. Jackson, who is a very influential figure, the kind of crew, the link between the CIA and Time magazine was C. D. Jackson during the 1950s. He's involved with psychological warfare, and he creates this show to prove how bad German people are. They order 2,000 people to walk the six miles from Weimar. They show up there and he stands there, he's got a table there, and they've got a lampshade made out of Jewish skin, two shrunken heads, and a pelvis ashtray. What is this? Yeah, what do you what do you this is clearly shows that this was a propaganda publicity stunt to make Germans look bad. I lived in Germany, I never saw a shrunken head the entire time I lived in Germany because Germans don't shrink heads. I guarantee you that. But it's more than that.
SPEAKER_03:It's like, okay, so when when when I first started hearing like the the challenging of the story, uh it's like you have this internal shock, and you're like, oh no, we're not allowed to touch that narrative. Like that narrative was almost sacred, and it's and people will get more offended if you talk about that. Then like Catholics will be more offended if you even mention the things you're saying than if somebody denies Christ or blasphemes.
SPEAKER_01:I just had a guy from Crisis Magazine today call me a Holocaust denier. This is this is ridiculous. You got this Catholic guy who has internalized the commands of his oppressors. Maybe they want the money from the Bradley Foundation. I don't know. But why are you calling a fellow Catholic a Holocaust denier? Because I wrote a book explaining how this whole thing happened. This is outrageous. An outrageous violation of the unity of the Catholic Church.
SPEAKER_03:And I came away and I'm and I'm saying, okay, well, does it, you know, maybe we could talk about this without actually talking about the events themselves. But the thing is, though, if if if these events didn't happen the way they did, the torment and the generations of Germans who whose lives were ruined because of this internalized guilt for something that didn't happen the way they're saying it happened. I mean, you're talking about millions and millions.
SPEAKER_01:You're talking about the collapse of Germany. Yeah. Yeah. A country where they can't even tell you, look into who blew up their pipeline. Because they're so crippled with guilt. So let's go back. What is the Holocaust narrative? 1955, a priest, Austrian priest by the name of Johann Lenz writes a book called Christus in Dachau. Dachau was the original concentration camp. Most of the people in Dachau were Catholics. There were large hundreds of Catholic priests in Dachau because Hitler did not like the Catholic Church. And anytime a priest said something Hitler didn't like, he would end up in Dachau. This is, and so the priests are there, and the Lent says Germany had committed the sin of atheism. And Germany was being punished for that sin. And we priests were sent there to expiate the sin of atheism. This is a spiritual message. It means that suffering has meaning. And then he says, we prayed to the Blessed Mother, and on August 15th, 1942, she answered our prayer. A letter came down from Berlin from Himmler saying, you're not allowed to starve these priests to death. So God answered their prayer. They eventually made it out. That was the Holocaust narrative as of 1955. The purpose of suffering is expiation of sin. Three years later, the Jews hijacked the narrative. A book comes out in French called La Nuit, Night, and written, supposedly written by Ailey Wiesel. It was really written by Francois Mauriac, who was a Catholic who had won the Nobel Prize. And they turned the narrative upside down. What do I mean by that? What is the message of night? What is Aile Wiesel's message? God died at Auschwitz. It's propaganda for atheism. Now the paradigmatic camp is Auschwitz. Nobody talks about Dachau anymore. Nobody talks about Catholic priests in Dachau. Only Jews suffered, and they were all exterminated the minute they got into camp in flaming pits. There is not a single gas chamber mentioned in A.D. Wiesel's memoir, which makes him technically a Holocaust denier.
SPEAKER_03:It's so interesting because I we actually grew up that that narrative is so powerful that we grew up thinking World War II was started because of what Hitler did to the Jews. Like that's actually the way you grow up in public school in America, thinking that World War II was, you know, and that and that's how you go about it. So now now this this really is an important thing to discuss. And I've been coming around more and more on this about that. No, because if this thing is a lie, like the whole thing, like they talk about the big lie, but this big lie is actually it has transformed the church, it's transformed the West, it's transformed everything. They they now have in Israel, they're allowed to have their um national, like they're allowed to be uh like only Jews and be nationalists in their country, but every other country has to open the floodgates to immigrants and then let them to destroy our culture so that we don't have it. And to me, it I because I always heard the narrative that you know the mass immigration was about democratic votes. And I'm like, no, it's not, it's actually about making it so that you have no connection to your neighbors so that you don't look together and go, okay, this is what's happening, and these are the people doing it to us, and you and you don't form any kind of alliance to fight back against the thing that's doing it to you, right? And and that's what's happening now. What what what do we do about the and not that you're gonna have an answer to this, but the if this narrative affects the church so much, it affects the liturgy. I mean, come on, to to say that that didn't affect the the the changing of the liturgy and all that stuff to me is just silly. It obviously did, and it castrated our hierarchy to the point where now no shirtate, whatever the document itself said, what it's turned into is this clown show that they celebrate with these Assisi meetings and all this stuff because all religions are equal, and especially our approach to the Jews, where it's a neutered version of Catholicism that's being presented now. And I just don't know how the church gets back, gets its footing back to actually start discussing like the reality of the enmity between Jews and Christians that has that has existed since the the fall of the of the Roman when the Romans destroyed the temple in 70 AD. So so the church is telling us you don't you shouldn't be suspicious of Jews, but the Jews are still suspicious of us.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I said I had dinner with a a young lady who was a graduate stool student in theology at Notre Dame. And I said to her, Who said this? The Jews are the people who killed Christ, and they are enemies of the entire human race. Without missing a beat, she said, Adolf Hitler.
SPEAKER_03:We titled the episode that, by the way. We titled the episode this after First Thessalonians. We titled the episode I said, I said, Did you ever hear of St.
SPEAKER_01:Paul being a theology major? Keith said this in 1 Thessalonians 2. That is the fundamental reality of this conflict between the Jews who accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the Jews who killed him. And it's never going to go away. And to pretend that that's not the case uh is fatal. You're right. The one thing that has crippled the Catholic Church is this Catholic Jewish dialogue. It's a failed experiment.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So what so what the one thing that has to happen immediately is we have to go to Nostratate. Nostratate says the church opposes all forms of anti-Semitism. Define it then. How can you what does that mean? That the church opposes anti-Semitism? Do you mean I have to follow every damn thing that the ADL says, or else I'm called an anti-Semite? No, we can't do that. You can't do that. You have to define the term and you have to free the people from this bondage to this myth that has been crippling us ever since the end of the Second Vatican Council.
SPEAKER_03:The only thing that gives me hope is, like you said, if you want to get an audience of a younger generation, you need to be talking about this issue, right? So, like, my hope is in the younger generation coming up that the that the narrative has broken a bit because the propaganda isn't like it used to be. It's not like you only have three three television stations anymore. It's not like our kids are growing up watching Schindler's list and things like that. But instead, they're actually hearing conversations like this where we're like, okay, look, the and and the younger generation, the I'm telling you, when I when I when I talk to people who are more your age, which is why it's amazing to me that you're the one that started down this road, because the the the the the people in your generation, it's like they This narrative has this grip on them, and they think to be a Republican is to support Israel. And you can't because I try to talk to my dad about it. I can't even, I can't even crack the surface with him. It's like so the younger generation is where I'm a little bit hopeful, but the church is terrifying to me because you know who you know who agrees with you?
SPEAKER_01:Jonathan Greenblatt. Jonathan Greenblatt just announced that for the first time in the history of the ADL, in the history of the time they've been doing polling, the younger generation is more anti-Semitic than the older generation. This is this is the reason to fire Jonathan Greenblatt. I mean, but then he says that the Board of Trustees should have fired him immediately because it happened on his watch. Yeah. Congratulations, Jonathan. I'm I'm saying basically, if you want to spread anti-Semitism, put Mark Levine on 24-7. Yeah, all of them.
SPEAKER_03:Ben Shapiro, put all of them on.
SPEAKER_01:Put Rabbi Smooley on. Put Rabbi Smooley on, please put him on 24-7.
SPEAKER_02:Have Prager talk about how child uh AI child porn is okay.
SPEAKER_01:This is this is the paradox. So the group the Jews are banning people, and the algorithm is proponing more and more Jews on X. You see it more and more now. They are bringing about the exact opposite of what they intend. That's exact, that's the cunning of reason. That's the way God moves in human history.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so okay, so now getting back to the theological on this, because Rob and I have been really going through the old testament a lot. And when when we when we do it, like we see that uh uh after after the Assyrians come in and and the and the Jews get better, like the the I even the idea of them being called back into the land, it seems apocalyptic to me because they were they were they were the judgment was the temples destroyed and you're scattered amongst the nations, and even the idea of them being gathered back together there seems like God is allowing it uh under his permissive will in order to accomplish something. And to me, I don't know, man. Uh especially when you see how much they are intertwined with the nations right now, it seems like the whore drunk on the blood of the martyrs, and it seems very apocalyptic to me. I don't know. I don't know if you have that kind of view of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I I know what you're saying. I think what we're really talking about is the end of the third republic.
SPEAKER_03:Not the end, not the end of the story totally.
SPEAKER_01:Not the end of the story, but the end of the third republic has significance for Israel because nothing lasts longer than 80 years. And former Prime Minister Ehud Barak uh and a lot of other people, a lot of other Israelis are obsessed with the idea that no Jewish kingdom has lasted longer than 80 years. And I think they have the sense that it's coming to an end, it's not gonna last forever.
SPEAKER_03:We we were just talking about the the David's kingdom lasted 80 years and then and then it and then it breaks apart.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's uh so 2028 would be 80 years.
SPEAKER_01:2028 is 80 years. I'm saying by 2028, um place your bets. Uh, I think it's going to disappear. I think that the the lines are there. There, I just saw Elon Papa just gave a little speech in which he said, this can't go on. The behavior of people like Netanyahu and the Lakudniks is alienating everyone, including Jews. The Jews are turning against themselves. They are they have become odious in the entire for the entire world. He said it can't go on like this. So it just strengthens my feeling that uh it's gonna end. Nothing lasts forever. Uh and I I have a priest friend in Cyprus. The Jews are fleeing to Cyprus now. The I mean the Israelis are fleeing to Cyprus, buying up property.
SPEAKER_03:They can sense something's coming.
SPEAKER_01:The rats, the rats are leaving the sinking ship. I don't mean that any pejorative. Oh, of course not.
SPEAKER_03:Man, it's just it's so it's so um uh amazing to me how much my my my own thinking on this whole issue is. I mean, if you went back to like 2008 or 2010, I mean, I was a neocon listening to your typical neocon politics, and and it really has it was reading your work that got me to start really thinking about this stuff a little bit deeper, and um, and then and then just watching the way things are playing out right now. Like, I don't know, I I I I hope you're right in that it's just the end of the third republic, and I hope uh my instincts are wrong, because to me, uh when when I look at all the damage that has been done to the church since the council and and the fact that the like our hierarchy won't talk about this issue because it is the most important issue, in my opinion. I don't I don't see how anything else precedent, you know.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, there's there's hopeful signs. I mean, so anybody in any position of authority in the church will not like what I'm saying, but the same thing applies to the seminarians now. I I go to I've created a club called the Nicodemus Society. Okay, these are people who meet E. Michael Jones by night out of fear of the Jews. And there are seminarians who come and meet with me uh by night out of fear of the Jews, you know. And those seminarians, I can't speak at the seminary, they won't let me there, but they come to me and they will become priests, and they will be there will be a changing of the guard. The old generation, my generation will pass away. They will come in, they're much more orthodox than my generation was. It's happening, happening now.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's uh yeah, it it's it's it's a slow process, and I do worry that they still do have control at the top, and they still have the ability to only elevate the guys up into the hierarchy who are playing their game, and because it that that did happen in the hierarchy where you got a certain type of bishop, and they would only bring up the priests that were playing their game with them. And and you know, when once they have the reins of power, it's kind of hard to reverse that. But I mean, it's in God's hands at this point, it's not ours.
SPEAKER_01:Is that bad? Yeah, yeah. Like the two women go to the captain, something happens on the ship, and the women go to the captain and say, Uh, is everything all right, Captain? And he says, Well, it's in God's hands. And the woman says, You mean it's that bad?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it is, yeah, it is though. Like a like the from a human perspective, it is unfixable.
SPEAKER_01:That's precisely the point. This church is not a human institution, right?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I go into that in walking with a Bible and a gun. When Hawthorne is goes into St. Peter's Basilica and he understands this is not a human institution. Yeah, this is a divinely founded institution. When Napoleon said to this bishop or cardinal, uh, I'm going to destroy the church, the bishop said, If we bishops haven't destroyed it by now, you're not going to succeed.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:That's proof. The people, the pro Peter denied Christ three times and he was the first pope. That's the paradigm that we have to understand here.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. I we when we I went to Italy in December with Patrick Coffin, actually. And when I went, um, it was my first time visiting Italy, and seeing what what a truly Catholic culture built, and the and there's and the things are still standing, and you see what what a culture that is actually focused on God, where you have the the uh basilica or you have the cathedral at the center, and it's the highest point in the in the in the town, and everything's kind of built around it. And then you come home to America, and I'm flying into New York, and you have the Freedom Tower or the Trade Center is the highest point because we worship money in America. Like it's our highest God, we worship money, we worship sex now. It's and it it's it's always been an inverted culture in America. But when you go and you step into something ancient, you see what a culture that has its focus on God properly is capable of.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, the beauty that Italy produced is tremendous. I wrote a book called The Dangers of Beauty, it's a book on aesthetics, and uh if it weren't for Italy, we wouldn't have the beauty that we have in this world. It Italy just led this, beginning with Giotto, who broke with Greek models around the same time that Thomas Aquinas was articulating the principle that is the fundamental principle of that book, which is that existence now calls forth essence into being. That's also the theme of uh walking with the Bible and a gun in a different key.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, okay, Dr. Jones, thank you so much, man. This was such an interesting interview. You're you're I I can't believe how much stuff you have that you could just pull from your your brain that you even from books you wrote 30 years ago and stuff.
SPEAKER_02:So do you want to hear a funny story, real quick, Ant? Yeah. So uh the uh the guy who makes our intro videos, including the one we started the show with, told me in the chat that um that Dr. Jones, you actually ruined one of his dates. Uh, and that's because the the date was the date went very well, and he was giving this young lady a ride home, and she happened to turn around in his car and see in his back seat your book, The Holocaust Narrative.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, I tell him, tell him that was the best thing that ever happened to him. Because he you don't want to be involved with that woman at all, okay? If she can't take the Holocaust narrative, forget it, honey. What one of there, there one of the categories, I think it's on Catholic chat, is E. Michael Jones. I think it's a great idea because basically you mentioned this if either you're enthused about it or you run in the opposite direction. But anyway, you eliminate a lot of pointless dates when you when you do something like this.
SPEAKER_03:One of the most fun things that I've done over the year over the past few years is kind of red pill my wife on this issue and watching her go from being like horrified at the thought of it to seeing it everywhere now, and she's like, Oh, it's them, it's that she has PCs it everywhere now. Your wife's Googling early life. I'm telling you, it's amazing, but not just that. So, like, uh guys, I I would encourage you to go and buy any one of Dr. Jones's books because even when I bought Logos Rising, it gave me such a unique way to evangelize and talking about uh even that even what we were discussing earlier about how John you know uh writes writes the the the prologue to his gospel, it it'll give you a different way to talk to people about things instead of just going, Hey, have you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior? Like we're Catholics, we should never talk like that. We should be talking about beauty and things and the transcendentals to get people who maybe don't even believe in God to think a little bit deeper about things. And your books have definitely given me a foundation to go and approach people in a way where it makes them think a little deeper about things. And next thing you know, they're asking me if they could come to mass with me. So I'm very, very grateful to you, Dr. Jones.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for saying that. Thanks for having me on great interview.
SPEAKER_03:Um, we will we will plan another one because I I would love to just do a two-hour episode on Benedict with you or something and just you know break it all down. But you're you're you're awesome. So uh yeah, go go get um his newest book at fidelitypress.org. Thank you so much for your time, and we will uh see you uh soon, hopefully. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
