{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.1,"endTime":3.54,"body":"[upbeat music] What are near-death experiences,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3.54,"endTime":6.44,"body":"and why have they spurred so much discussion and research"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":6.44,"endTime":10.0,"body":"over the past 50 years? Is there good evidence they are real, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":10.0,"endTime":14.14,"body":"if so, what do they tell us about God and the afterlife? Our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.14,"endTime":17.399,"body":"guest today, Dr. J. Steve Miller, is one of the leading"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":17.399,"endTime":21.059,"body":"Christian researchers on the topic. He's authored multiple"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":21.059,"endTime":25.059,"body":"books and is a professor at Kennesaw State University."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":25.059,"endTime":28.0,"body":"You've been on my YouTube channel multiple times, Steve,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.0,"endTime":30.899,"body":"but it's the first time on Think Biblically. We're thrilled to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":30.899,"endTime":33.28,"body":"have you here. I'm the host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":33.28,"endTime":34.7,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":34.7,"endTime":36.299,"body":"This is the Think Biblically podcast,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":36.299,"endTime":40.2,"body":"brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.2,"endTime":44.479,"body":"Steve, maybe the place to start with is just define for us what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":44.479,"endTime":50.359,"body":"is meant by an NDE and maybe how common they are."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":50.359,"endTime":52.979,"body":"Sure. Near-death experiences are, as"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":52.979,"endTime":57.259,"body":"it says, a time when a person comes near death, even some"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":57.259,"endTime":60.969,"body":"would call it clinical death. For example, let's say a person"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":60.969,"endTime":66.28,"body":"has a heart attack. Their heartbeat stops, their cessation"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":66.28,"endTime":69.739,"body":"of breathing. This is called clinical death. And so you'd"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":69.739,"endTime":74.439,"body":"expect during that time that the, your consciousness"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":74.439,"endTime":74.799,"body":"just,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":75.48,"endTime":80.34,"body":"everything evaporates quickly, when your heart stops. And yet,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":80.34,"endTime":83.439,"body":"they found that these people often, maybe a third of them"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":83.439,"endTime":84.89,"body":"having a cardiac arrest,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":85.459,"endTime":87.42,"body":"will come to and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":88.06,"endTime":92.859,"body":"express a very vivid experience that happened while they were"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":92.859,"endTime":93.9,"body":"clinically dead,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":96.019,"endTime":98.719,"body":"which no one would be expecting under naturalism. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":98.719,"endTime":99.459,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":99.459,"endTime":99.799,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":100.459,"endTime":104.34,"body":"and the types of things that they encounter are similar. Now,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":104.34,"endTime":107.939,"body":"you would think that if it was just a naturalistic occurrence,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":107.939,"endTime":110.439,"body":"that this would just be a hallucination based on their"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":110.439,"endTime":115.48,"body":"expectations or who knows what. But instead, people"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":115.48,"endTime":118.98,"body":"cross-culturally will report leaving their bodies, looking"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":118.98,"endTime":122.959,"body":"back at their resuscitation efforts,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":123.76,"endTime":128.0,"body":"talking to deceased relatives or angels, maybe having a life"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":128.0,"endTime":129.18,"body":"review,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":130.56,"endTime":130.879,"body":"just,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":131.599,"endTime":135.4,"body":"and very similar from culture to culture, and then actually"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":135.4,"endTime":138.3,"body":"having an exit from it all, where you're talking to some"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":138.3,"endTime":142.159,"body":"angelic presence or a being of light, which they all seem to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":142.159,"endTime":142.909,"body":"say is God,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":143.719,"endTime":144.819,"body":"and they say,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":145.34,"endTime":146.24,"body":"\"Hey, do I need to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":146.78,"endTime":150.56,"body":"stay here or come back?\" And then they come back, so it has"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":150.56,"endTime":152.12,"body":"closure as well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":152.12,"endTime":154.639,"body":"So Steve, I'm kind of curious, how did you get"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":154.639,"endTime":157.259,"body":"interested in this- ... To begin with? There's-- I suspect"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":157.259,"endTime":160.28,"body":"there's something of a backstory here that our listeners would be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":160.28,"endTime":160.87,"body":"interested in."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":161.379,"endTime":163.96,"body":"Sure, and I didn't mention that, Sean was"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":163.96,"endTime":166.86,"body":"asking how prevalent they are. There have been,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":168.06,"endTime":171.759,"body":"surveys in Germany and Australia and the United States that show"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":171.759,"endTime":174.84,"body":"at least 4% of the population claiming to have had a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":174.84,"endTime":175.8,"body":"near-death experience."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":175.8,"endTime":175.819,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":175.819,"endTime":178.5,"body":"So that's one out of 25 people. You know, you"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":178.5,"endTime":181.8,"body":"have a Thanksgiving gathering coming up, you might want to ask"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":181.8,"endTime":186.52,"body":"around because people, it's very much widespread. So the way"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":186.52,"endTime":191.06,"body":"I got into it is I'm a perennial doubter, questioner. I"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":191.06,"endTime":193.84,"body":"went through periods of doubt early in my Christian life, had"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":193.84,"endTime":195.819,"body":"to study apologetics,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":196.699,"endTime":201.52,"body":"reading pro and con things, and which is why I appreciate,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":201.52,"endTime":204.86,"body":"Talbot and Biola so much because you've taken this area"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":204.86,"endTime":208.06,"body":"seriously, and that's really what God used to keep me in the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":208.06,"endTime":208.5,"body":"faith."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":209.12,"endTime":211.3,"body":"But in all these years, I'd never read anything about"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":211.3,"endTime":214.979,"body":"near-death and deathbed experiences until a relative,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":214.979,"endTime":218.639,"body":"wanted me to read the little book, Heaven Is For Real, and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":218.639,"endTime":221.039,"body":"see what... And I wasn't really interested, but as a favor to a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":221.039,"endTime":221.979,"body":"relative, I read it,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":222.599,"endTime":225.9,"body":"and I thought, \"Well, it's a nice story. Maybe it happened,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":225.9,"endTime":228.819,"body":"maybe it didn't. I di- I don't know the family. I'm a kind of"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":228.819,"endTime":233.479,"body":"skeptical guy.\" But i- so this was about a little boy, a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":233.479,"endTime":236.06,"body":"pastor's son, who had had a near-death experience, and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":236.06,"endTime":239.86,"body":"actually, a movie was made out of it. But one of the blurbs in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":239.86,"endTime":245.139,"body":"the book was by a physician, Dr. Long, who said that he had"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":245.139,"endTime":248.3,"body":"studied thousands of these experiences, and this was"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":248.3,"endTime":250.58,"body":"consistent with what he had studied. And I thought,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":251.5,"endTime":254.919,"body":"\"Intellectuals are studying this? I need to get back and see"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":254.919,"endTime":255.949,"body":"what they've studied.\""},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":256.56,"endTime":259.5,"body":"So what I did is, rather than pulling up,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":260.36,"endTime":264.319,"body":"experiences from YouTube or this type thing, I went in to see"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":264.319,"endTime":267.899,"body":"what the best studies by cardiologists, professional"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":267.899,"endTime":271.48,"body":"researchers at universities, what they had discovered about"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":271.48,"endTime":275.0,"body":"these, dramatic experiences that are so powerful."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":275.0,"endTime":277.579,"body":"Maybe give us a specific example of one. So you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":277.579,"endTime":281.079,"body":"described what happens, kind of common themes and kind of common"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":281.079,"endTime":284.939,"body":"trends, but in your books, you list dozens and dozens, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":284.939,"endTime":288.279,"body":"these are documented, but what's one that just stands out to you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":288.279,"endTime":291.6,"body":"that's interesting and maybe helpful of why this contributes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":291.6,"endTime":292.959,"body":"to apologetics?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":292.959,"endTime":294.68,"body":"Sure. Well, let's take the Pam Reynolds"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":294.68,"endTime":299.019,"body":"case. Now, and one reason I like it is because Dr. Sabom, who was"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":299.019,"endTime":302.389,"body":"teaching at Emory University, he was not just your average"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":302.389,"endTime":304.819,"body":"cardiologist next door. He was teaching-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":304.819,"endTime":305.009,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":305.009,"endTime":308.74,"body":"... Cardiology at Emory, very well-respected,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":308.74,"endTime":313.0,"body":"level-headed guy who's just out for the evidence. Now, someone"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":313.0,"endTime":315.339,"body":"had shown him Dr. Moody's book"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":316.0,"endTime":319.5,"body":"on near-death experiences, and he thought his word was hogwash."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":319.5,"endTime":319.939,"body":"He said, \"Yeah-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":319.939,"endTime":319.949,"body":"[chuckles] That's right"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":319.949,"endTime":321.968,"body":"... I've got all these patients. Nobody talks"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":321.968,"endTime":325.68,"body":"about these things. This is just craziness.\" And somebody"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":325.68,"endTime":329.399,"body":"challenged him to start talking to his patients. And when he"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":329.399,"endTime":333.1,"body":"did, I think believe it was his third patient who told"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":333.1,"endTime":337.139,"body":"him about a dramatic experience. So as he just said, \"Well, I'm"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":337.139,"endTime":341.68,"body":"going to study these,\" and he did. Over a period of, about a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":341.68,"endTime":345.379,"body":"year, finally, he concluded that these people were actually"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":345.379,"endTime":348.959,"body":"exiting their bodies because they could tell very specific"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":348.959,"endTime":352.879,"body":"things that happened during the resuscitations, whereas a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":352.879,"endTime":357.259,"body":"control group of his patients who had clinical death but did"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":357.259,"endTime":359.54,"body":"not have a near-death experience, when they would try"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":359.54,"endTime":363.72,"body":"to guess what happened in their resuscitations, always got it"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":363.72,"endTime":365.879,"body":"wrong. So he said, \"How could they get it right in these"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":365.879,"endTime":367.699,"body":"specifics?\" Well, one doctor"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":368.24,"endTime":371.6,"body":"in the Atlanta area said, \"You need to study-- You need to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":371.6,"endTime":376.144,"body":"go-\"... Interview people about this Pam Reynolds case. So he"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":376.144,"endTime":380.184,"body":"actually did great research on this. He compared the doctor's"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":380.184,"endTime":382.903,"body":"records, talked to the physicians that were involved,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":382.903,"endTime":386.884,"body":"because it was a type procedure he was not used to. So Pam"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":386.884,"endTime":391.024,"body":"Reynolds had an aneurysm in her brain that was very dangerous"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":391.024,"endTime":393.303,"body":"and required very delicate surgery,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":394.024,"endTime":397.223,"body":"and there was a hospital where they specialized on this, and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":397.223,"endTime":400.504,"body":"what they would do is drain all the blood out of your head,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":400.504,"endTime":405.244,"body":"lower your body temperature, and operate on you and take care of"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":405.244,"endTime":408.624,"body":"that aneurysm, where you wouldn't bleed out,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":409.184,"endTime":411.463,"body":"and that's the only way they could do this. Well, in order to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":411.463,"endTime":415.944,"body":"do that, your heart is stopped. You're experiencing clinical"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":415.944,"endTime":419.324,"body":"death. They're measuring-- They're making sure that you're"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":419.324,"endTime":422.324,"body":"not waking up or anything. They're measuring brain stem"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":422.324,"endTime":427.303,"body":"activity by three major tests. You are dead, [chuckles] laying"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":427.303,"endTime":430.663,"body":"there. And yet, when she woke up,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":431.283,"endTime":434.603,"body":"the intern or whoever had come in to talk to her, she starts"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":434.603,"endTime":438.584,"body":"telling about seeing the procedure from outside of her"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":438.584,"endTime":441.444,"body":"body. And so she goes to the doctor and says- \"You need to go"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":441.444,"endTime":445.223,"body":"in and [chuckles] you need to talk to this lady.\" I mean, but"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":445.223,"endTime":449.004,"body":"her head was covered. You know, the only part that was open was"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":449.004,"endTime":452.363,"body":"the part that was having the surgery. How could she have"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":452.363,"endTime":454.983,"body":"known? Plus, there were 100 decibel"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":455.624,"endTime":458.663,"body":"clicks going on in her ears."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":459.403,"endTime":461.723,"body":"She couldn't have heard anything, she couldn't have seen"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":461.723,"endTime":464.483,"body":"anything- ... And yet there she was, and she wasn't just"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":464.483,"endTime":468.564,"body":"describing something that she's seen on a TV show. She described"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":468.564,"endTime":473.184,"body":"some very specific instruments used for that. Dr. Sabom wasn't"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":473.184,"endTime":475.144,"body":"even familiar with the,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":476.144,"endTime":480.144,"body":"with the instruments, so he actually asked for the spec"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":480.144,"endTime":482.923,"body":"sheet so that he could look at it, and sure enough, as she"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":482.923,"endTime":486.124,"body":"described it's kind of like a toothbrush, but it was going"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":486.124,"endTime":490.384,"body":"zzz, and they use this to cut, [chuckles] cut. And Sabom says-"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":490.384,"endTime":493.504,"body":"\"How could she have known? How could she have known?\" There"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":493.504,"endTime":496.944,"body":"wasn't anybody to tell her about it. She couldn't see anything,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":496.944,"endTime":501.124,"body":"and yet, when she went to the other side, she was talking to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":501.124,"endTime":504.324,"body":"beings on the other side. It was very vivid to her"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":504.963,"endTime":507.644,"body":"at a time when she shouldn't have had any brain activity at"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":507.644,"endTime":511.043,"body":"all. So I'd say the Pam Reynolds case is a great one."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":511.043,"endTime":514.303,"body":"There's dozens and dozens of these cases"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":514.303,"endTime":517.303,"body":"documented carefully. What's most important for people to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":517.303,"endTime":518.844,"body":"see, especially of apologetics,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":519.504,"endTime":522.764,"body":"is not just somebody who dies and has an experience and who"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":522.764,"endTime":527.543,"body":"tells us about it, as powerful as that is, but then when it can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":527.543,"endTime":532.943,"body":"be checked and confirmed, and someone could not have known"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":533.504,"endTime":536.303,"body":"in the state they were at, with the decibels in their ears, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":536.303,"endTime":539.124,"body":"eyes covered up, that makes you go, \"Wait a minute, you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":539.124,"endTime":542.844,"body":"minimally more than your body, and maybe this story you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":542.844,"endTime":546.484,"body":"telling is true.\" That's really the evidential hook that I want"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":546.484,"endTime":549.224,"body":"people to see that makes this so significant. Now, I've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":549.224,"endTime":551.803,"body":"interviewed Long, I've interviewed Sabom, and you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":551.803,"endTime":555.303,"body":"right, these are top-tier scholars, cardiologists,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":555.303,"endTime":558.563,"body":"no-nonsense. When I interviewed Sabom, he used the word hogwash"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":558.563,"endTime":559.774,"body":"exactly like you did- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":559.774,"endTime":560.104,"body":"Yes, yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":560.104,"endTime":562.744,"body":"... To describe the way he looks at it. But this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":562.744,"endTime":565.384,"body":"study of near-death experiences, you also mentioned Moody, who"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":565.384,"endTime":569.364,"body":"was one of the first- ... Has been going on for five decades."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":569.364,"endTime":569.524,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":569.524,"endTime":573.364,"body":"So for 50 years, and it's still just starting to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":573.364,"endTime":576.163,"body":"get the attention of kind of the apologetics world and the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":576.163,"endTime":579.043,"body":"popular world and beyond. But you're-- we're in the middle of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":579.043,"endTime":581.943,"body":"the Evangelical Theological Society, and you're doing this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":581.943,"endTime":587.403,"body":"presentation on kind of 50 years of studying NDEs. So maybe just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":587.403,"endTime":590.543,"body":"tell us a little about how it started and how it's changed"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":590.543,"endTime":591.553,"body":"over time and kind of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":592.124,"endTime":594.724,"body":"state of NDE study right now."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":594.724,"endTime":597.163,"body":"Sure. Well, Raymond Moody was a study at the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":597.163,"endTime":600.803,"body":"Univers- he was a student at the University of Virginia, an honor"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":600.803,"endTime":603.783,"body":"student studying philosophy. He eventually got his PhD in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":603.783,"endTime":605.244,"body":"philosophy, so that fits in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":605.764,"endTime":610.183,"body":"with our conference. His dad was an atheist, and he'd asked-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":610.183,"endTime":610.203,"body":"Oh"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":610.203,"endTime":612.783,"body":"... His dad at one point. His dad would come"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":612.783,"endTime":616.004,"body":"home, and he was a surgeon, and he would ask-- he would talk"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":616.004,"endTime":619.974,"body":"about his surgeries over the table, and, someone had"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":620.683,"endTime":624.344,"body":"died on the table, and he had his chest opened up, and he,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":624.344,"endTime":627.583,"body":"he said- \"Hey, I just massaged it, and it started back.\" And,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":627.583,"endTime":630.344,"body":"and little Raymond, as a kid, said- \"Well, what did he"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":630.344,"endTime":631.374,"body":"experience?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":631.374,"endTime":631.384,"body":"Huh."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":631.384,"endTime":633.224,"body":"And his dad said, \"Well, of course, he"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":633.224,"endTime":634.724,"body":"experienced nothing. He was"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":635.344,"endTime":637.884,"body":"dead. His heart was stopped.\" But,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":638.923,"endTime":641.604,"body":"he just didn't even ask the question. Obviously, nobody"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":641.604,"endTime":643.234,"body":"could have any experience when that's-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":643.234,"endTime":643.234,"body":"No"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":643.234,"endTime":645.543,"body":"... Going on. So that was Raymond's growing"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":645.543,"endTime":649.543,"body":"up, very secular background. But he was studying philosophy, then"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":649.543,"endTime":651.104,"body":"read Plato's Republic,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":651.644,"endTime":651.943,"body":"and,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":652.524,"endTime":655.403,"body":"Ir, a soldier, had experienced-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":655.403,"endTime":655.423,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":655.423,"endTime":658.244,"body":"... Death on the field, came back, and he,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":658.244,"endTime":661.903,"body":"and ul- and Moody was fascinated with this. So,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":662.724,"endTime":665.384,"body":"his-- he talked to his professor, and his professor"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":665.384,"endTime":668.004,"body":"said, \"You need to talk to this psychiatrist,\" very"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":668.004,"endTime":672.254,"body":"well-respected on campus, who had one of those experiences."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":672.254,"endTime":676.583,"body":"And sure enough, when he went to hear him speak, the psychiatrist"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":676.583,"endTime":680.183,"body":"passed around his own death certificate [chuckles] because"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":680.183,"endTime":682.703,"body":"he was dead so long, but it was a very"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":683.264,"endTime":687.124,"body":"Christian-like experience of Jesus directing this experience."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":687.124,"endTime":691.224,"body":"So that kind of started Moody realizing, \"Hey, it wasn't just"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":691.224,"endTime":695.024,"body":"Ir. This may be going on now.\" So he ended up interviewing,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":695.024,"endTime":700.124,"body":"like, 150 people and wrote his book, Life After Life. But this"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":700.124,"endTime":703.443,"body":"wasn't a very scholarly scu- study, not very scientific. It"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":703.443,"endTime":707.683,"body":"was just interviews of people that he talked to, but it showed"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":707.683,"endTime":710.844,"body":"that there are commonalities to these. They're not just weird"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":710.844,"endTime":714.683,"body":"hallucinations, and it got people's attention, and he also"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":714.683,"endTime":717.104,"body":"didn't direct it toward Christians"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":717.624,"endTime":720.323,"body":"so that it was secular researchers could come in and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":720.323,"endTime":724.644,"body":"just look at it and build upon that. So what we've seen is,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":724.644,"endTime":729.663,"body":"over the past years, by 2005, and I haven't calculated it"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":729.663,"endTime":734.264,"body":"since then, but it, by 2005, over 55 researchers or teams"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":734.264,"endTime":738.344,"body":"published at least 65 studies of over 3,500 near-death"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":738.344,"endTime":742.043,"body":"experiences. Hundreds of NDE articles have been published in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":742.043,"endTime":745.403,"body":"serious literature like The Lancet, Resuscitation,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":745.403,"endTime":749.264,"body":"Neurology. These are all top-tier,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":749.844,"endTime":753.073,"body":"peer-reviewed journals. So there's just a lot of,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":754.004,"endTime":757.604,"body":"studies out there, plus meta-analyses of what we've"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":757.604,"endTime":760.624,"body":"found to date on near-death experiences."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":760.624,"endTime":762.124,"body":"Now, you, Steve, it sounds like you've been at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":762.124,"endTime":763.414,"body":"this for a while."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":763.414,"endTime":765.015,"body":"... And you've been, you've been, you've been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":765.015,"endTime":768.336,"body":"studying the studies, and you've been talking to people in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":768.336,"endTime":771.216,"body":"Christian community about this. What in, what in general has"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":771.216,"endTime":773.794,"body":"been the response of the Christian community"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":774.315,"endTime":777.716,"body":"to this whole phenomena of NDEs?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":777.716,"endTime":780.836,"body":"I think, well, it's varied. Some"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":780.836,"endTime":783.815,"body":"high-profile Christians have written books on heaven"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":784.475,"endTime":788.674,"body":"that slam NDE, NDEs and just say they're all either"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":788.674,"endTime":792.216,"body":"hallucinations or they're of the devil, and the way they come to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":792.216,"endTime":795.934,"body":"that conclusion is typically that they've read the little"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":795.934,"endTime":798.914,"body":"paperback books and listened to things on the internet, and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":798.914,"endTime":801.434,"body":"they've said, \"Hey, a lot of these are very new agey, or"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":801.434,"endTime":803.586,"body":"they're... Or they're saying that"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":804.115,"endTime":807.054,"body":"Christianity's wrong or reincarnation,\" and they get"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":807.054,"endTime":811.035,"body":"into all these things, and so they're warning people against"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":811.035,"endTime":814.755,"body":"these experiences. And I happen to agree with them. The f-"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":814.755,"endTime":817.914,"body":"according to Proverbs, \"The fool believes everything he hears,\""},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":817.914,"endTime":821.716,"body":"and the devil, I think that there are malevolent presences"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":821.716,"endTime":823.125,"body":"on the other side that,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":823.735,"endTime":827.895,"body":"that are out to deceive people. But these people have never"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":827.895,"endTime":831.115,"body":"seemingly read the actual research by legitimate"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":831.115,"endTime":835.275,"body":"cardiologists. They've read the popular literature and said,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":835.275,"endTime":838.434,"body":"\"This is heaven tourism literature. Stay away from it."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":838.434,"endTime":841.115,"body":"We know what we need to know about heaven from the Bible.\""},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":841.115,"endTime":844.365,"body":"But then other people react by coming to me and telling me"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":844.365,"endTime":848.155,"body":"their experiences, and I, what I... What shocked me is I'm"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":848.155,"endTime":848.554,"body":"studying"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":849.195,"endTime":852.855,"body":"all the studies out there, and as I began to tell people, even"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":852.855,"endTime":855.914,"body":"in s- and I'm teaching in secular academia, and I'll be in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":855.914,"endTime":859.615,"body":"a master's program get-together or something, and my wife will"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":859.615,"endTime":862.174,"body":"say, \"Hey, Steve, tell them what you're studying,\" and I'll say,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":862.174,"endTime":864.914,"body":"\"Oh, near-death and deathbed experiences.\" Inevitably,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":864.914,"endTime":866.934,"body":"somebody will look at me and motion me and say,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":867.535,"endTime":870.775,"body":"\"Come outside. I want to talk to you about something.\" [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":870.775,"endTime":875.096,"body":"And here they are talking to me about when they drowned as a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":875.096,"endTime":878.775,"body":"five-year-old, and they had this near-death experience, and they"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":878.775,"endTime":882.174,"body":"want to talk to somebody about it, and this opens up"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":882.174,"endTime":886.995,"body":"conversations. I w- I was at a table of men at a men's meeting,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":886.995,"endTime":890.695,"body":"early breakfast, five people around me. I told... I"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":890.695,"endTime":893.453,"body":"introduced myself, told them what I was studying, and the guy"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":893.453,"endTime":896.576,"body":"next to me says, \"Oh, those things are real,\" and he told me"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":896.576,"endTime":899.716,"body":"about his near-death experience, where he saw Jesus on the other"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":899.716,"endTime":904.775,"body":"side when he was close to death from a sepsis condition. Then"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":904.775,"endTime":908.195,"body":"the guy on my right tells me about a vision of Jesus he had,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":908.195,"endTime":912.115,"body":"and both of these grown men, about my age, in their 60s,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":912.934,"endTime":916.455,"body":"they can hardly get through it because they're almost crying,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":916.455,"endTime":920.355,"body":"'cause it was so meaningful. These people need somebody to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":920.355,"endTime":924.174,"body":"talk to about it, and yet, for some reason, we've been silent"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":924.174,"endTime":927.674,"body":"in our churches. Maybe I'm just hanging around the wrong crowd."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":927.674,"endTime":929.716,"body":"I'm not Pentecostal nor,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":930.316,"endTime":933.576,"body":"charismatic. Maybe they talk about it more, but in my"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":933.576,"endTime":936.195,"body":"churches, we just haven't talked about these things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":936.195,"endTime":938.035,"body":"Part of the... Part of what puzzles me about this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":938.816,"endTime":941.674,"body":"is that, you know, the examples of fraud out there, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":941.674,"endTime":944.695,"body":"are enough to make people somewhat skeptical."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":945.635,"endTime":949.535,"body":"But are there, are there other reasons why people of faith are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":949.535,"endTime":953.716,"body":"so... Are resistant to accepting, you know, what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":953.716,"endTime":956.414,"body":"looks to be sort of clear empirical facts on some of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":956.414,"endTime":956.975,"body":"these?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":956.975,"endTime":958.875,"body":"There are about 12 reasons I could give,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":958.875,"endTime":959.934,"body":"and they probably vary-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":959.934,"endTime":959.945,"body":"Just, just-"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":959.945,"endTime":960.975,"body":"... From person to person-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":960.975,"endTime":962.826,"body":"Just give me the one at the top of the list"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":962.826,"endTime":963.995,"body":"... I think the one big thing is from the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":963.995,"endTime":969.755,"body":"late 1800s through the 1900s, naturalistic materialism came on"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":969.755,"endTime":974.816,"body":"so strong that when people talk about spiritual experiences,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":975.934,"endTime":979.216,"body":"like visions, they're afraid people will think they're crazy."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":979.216,"endTime":982.914,"body":"In a lot of other cultures, you talk about these things, and,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":982.914,"endTime":985.855,"body":"and we talk about it as a family. So-and-so's dying. They"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":985.855,"endTime":989.155,"body":"have some visions of angels and deceased relatives, very"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":989.155,"endTime":991.615,"body":"meaningful to them. Here, we're,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":992.475,"endTime":995.375,"body":"someone had said we're embarrassed by the supernatural-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":995.375,"endTime":995.846,"body":"So is that last-"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":995.846,"endTime":997.414,"body":"... So we just don't talk about it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":997.414,"endTime":999.414,"body":"Is that latter thing you described, what's, what you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":999.414,"endTime":1001.235,"body":"mean by a deathbed experience?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1001.235,"endTime":1003.155,"body":"Yes, and I should distinguish those. A"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1003.155,"endTime":1007.535,"body":"near-death experience is a halftime experience where you"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1008.174,"endTime":1009.035,"body":"actually,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1009.655,"endTime":1012.235,"body":"experience clinical death and come back and have a story to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1012.235,"endTime":1015.635,"body":"tell. Deathbed experiences, which was the subject of my"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1015.635,"endTime":1019.816,"body":"dissertation, which again, a lot of study has been done on"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1019.816,"endTime":1024.096,"body":"since the late 1800s even, but, these are experiences just"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1024.096,"endTime":1025.694,"body":"before your final death,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1026.336,"endTime":1030.255,"body":"and, but also of angels, deceased relatives- ... Coming"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1030.255,"endTime":1032.234,"body":"to welcome you to the other side."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1032.234,"endTime":1035.476,"body":"I included a chapter, or I had a chapter in a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1035.476,"endTime":1039.655,"body":"book responding to New Atheists in 2010 on the soul, and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1039.655,"endTime":1042.635,"body":"included the story of Pam Reynolds in there as one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1042.635,"endTime":1046.875,"body":"additional piece of evidence that we're not just a body, we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1046.875,"endTime":1050.755,"body":"are a soul. But I didn't really at that point study near-death"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1050.755,"endTime":1053.855,"body":"experiences. I thought, \"This is probably an exception, an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1053.855,"endTime":1056.556,"body":"interesting one.\" Maybe six or seven years ago, I thought, \"You"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1056.556,"endTime":1059.135,"body":"know what? I'm gonna actually really study this,\" and J.P."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1059.135,"endTime":1062.296,"body":"Moreland, who endorsed or wrote the forward for one of your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1062.296,"endTime":1065.955,"body":"early books, had said, \"You've got to check out this book.\" So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1065.955,"endTime":1068.455,"body":"I read your book on near-death experiences, amongst a few"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1068.455,"endTime":1073.234,"body":"others, and was pleasantly surprised. I didn't expect the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1073.234,"endTime":1076.016,"body":"evidence to be [chuckles] that good. So I s- I suspect for a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1076.016,"endTime":1078.375,"body":"lot of people, they think these are just stories. They're no"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1078.375,"endTime":1082.025,"body":"different than a dream. There's not that much to it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1082.576,"endTime":1085.675,"body":"and yet one of the things you convinced me is that we can have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1085.675,"endTime":1089.275,"body":"confidence in the reporting of these NDEs."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1089.996,"endTime":1093.675,"body":"So maybe walk us through, why do you trust a lot of these stories"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1093.675,"endTime":1096.715,"body":"and the people who tell us about them and the research that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1096.715,"endTime":1100.016,"body":"been done on it? Professionally, why should we give that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1100.016,"endTime":1101.096,"body":"credence?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1101.096,"endTime":1103.036,"body":"Sure. Well, look back to the Bible. You"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1103.036,"endTime":1106.855,"body":"know, our reports of the resurrection are testimonies."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1106.855,"endTime":1110.234,"body":"We, we don't- ... People who say we can't believe testimonies, I,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1110.234,"endTime":1111.505,"body":"I guarantee you, even if they're"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1112.115,"endTime":1116.885,"body":"a physical scientist, 95% of what they believe about science,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1116.885,"endTime":1118.816,"body":"they read... They believe because they read it in a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1118.816,"endTime":1122.375,"body":"textbook, they heard another reputable scientist say it. They"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1122.375,"endTime":1126.195,"body":"haven't done experiments on all these things themselves. So we"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1126.195,"endTime":1126.665,"body":"learn to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1127.215,"endTime":1131.895,"body":"differentiate between good testimony and bad testimony. One"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1131.895,"endTime":1135.096,"body":"reason I believe a lot of the... And, and listen, in this"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1135.096,"endTime":1138.816,"body":"area, if you just start pulling up instances on YouTube, you're"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1138.816,"endTime":1142.296,"body":"gonna find some people that are making things up, some people"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1142.296,"endTime":1146.536,"body":"that are trying to get clicks on their website, and so they kind"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1146.536,"endTime":1150.319,"body":"of-... You know, make their, make their experience a little"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1150.319,"endTime":1153.378,"body":"more interesting. You have people who are mentally ill. You"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1153.378,"endTime":1157.148,"body":"have all kinds, so you have to use discernment in testimonies."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1157.148,"endTime":1157.159,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1157.159,"endTime":1160.48,"body":"But the one reason that these, especially in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1160.48,"endTime":1164.339,"body":"the research by cardiologists, people don't wanna tell their"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1164.339,"endTime":1167.599,"body":"doctor. They may tell a nurse they had an experience, but"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1167.599,"endTime":1170.44,"body":"they're afraid if they tell the doctor about an experience,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1170.44,"endTime":1174.039,"body":"they're gonna recommend them over to the psych ward. They're"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1174.039,"endTime":1176.759,"body":"scared to tell that, and the first time they open up about"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1176.759,"endTime":1180.46,"body":"it, even to a wife, they may just be very uncomfortable in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1180.46,"endTime":1185.839,"body":"our culture. So when you have in a court of law legal testimony,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1185.839,"endTime":1190.138,"body":"if somebody has something to lose by giving that testimony"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1190.138,"endTime":1193.779,"body":"and doesn't have anything to gain, those are some of the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1193.779,"endTime":1198.0,"body":"elements and reasons we trust these testimonies. And what I"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1198.0,"endTime":1202.339,"body":"found, which what shocked me, is as I began opening up about my"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1202.339,"endTime":1206.398,"body":"research, people that I already know and trust are coming up to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1206.398,"endTime":1209.7,"body":"me saying, \"Let me tell you about my experience,\" which may"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1209.7,"endTime":1213.46,"body":"be the one of the most important experiences of their life, but"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1213.46,"endTime":1216.519,"body":"they never told me as one of their friends. And so these are"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1216.519,"endTime":1217.5,"body":"people around me"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1218.019,"endTime":1222.079,"body":"that I already know and trust, family members, friends, and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1222.079,"endTime":1224.659,"body":"they're talking about it, but they've never"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1225.72,"endTime":1228.319,"body":"had... Felt safe coming out about [chuckles] their"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1228.319,"endTime":1229.599,"body":"experience."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1229.599,"endTime":1230.67,"body":"So let's say that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1231.339,"endTime":1234.5,"body":"one of our listeners finds himself or herself in a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1234.5,"endTime":1239.049,"body":"conversation with a friend or a family member, and they share"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1239.049,"endTime":1242.059,"body":"that they've had a near-death experience. How would you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1242.059,"endTime":1246.159,"body":"suggest that the, that our listener respond when they hear"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1246.159,"endTime":1249.179,"body":"the stories of near-death experiences?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1249.179,"endTime":1252.279,"body":"A good general biblical principle is be quick"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1252.279,"endTime":1254.159,"body":"to hear, slow to speak. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1254.159,"endTime":1255.299,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1255.299,"endTime":1257.74,"body":"Listen to them. Now,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1258.398,"endTime":1260.638,"body":"I have one friend that I've listened to about his"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1260.638,"endTime":1263.619,"body":"experience, and I think he probably had a legitimate"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1263.619,"endTime":1268.638,"body":"experience, at the first, but then he started telling me about"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1268.638,"endTime":1273.398,"body":"subsequent visions, and it got weirder and weirder, and then he"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1273.398,"endTime":1276.679,"body":"starts telling about God telling him things, that he's right..."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1276.679,"endTime":1279.009,"body":"And finally, he says that he's been diagnosed with"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1279.009,"endTime":1282.92,"body":"schizophrenia and is off his meds, and so you don't just"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1282.92,"endTime":1288.039,"body":"accept everything. The naive, according to Proverbs, believes"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1288.039,"endTime":1292.5,"body":"everything, so I don't naively, but I'll listen, get their side"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1292.5,"endTime":1296.138,"body":"of the story, ask them what they think it means. They may have"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1296.138,"endTime":1299.309,"body":"never had anybody they could talk to about it, and they need"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1299.819,"endTime":1303.799,"body":"you as a compassionate believer need to be a listener who's"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1303.799,"endTime":1307.159,"body":"there to help them in interpreting what's going on."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1307.159,"endTime":1310.059,"body":"But I ask the person how they interpret it. I keep the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1310.059,"endTime":1313.319,"body":"conversation open, and I say, \"What does it mean? Would you"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1313.319,"endTime":1316.48,"body":"mind if we talked about this again?\" They hardly ever get"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1316.48,"endTime":1319.42,"body":"that, because people hear it once, then they go on and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1319.42,"endTime":1322.579,"body":"talking about the rest of their day and their groceries and the,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1322.579,"endTime":1324.2,"body":"the Atlanta Falcons or whatever-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1324.2,"endTime":1324.21,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1324.21,"endTime":1327.179,"body":"... And they just wanna move past it."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1327.179,"endTime":1331.539,"body":"Listen to them. Talk to them. This is a meaningful experience,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1331.539,"endTime":1336.48,"body":"and it's, it's not easy having an experience that's so"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1336.48,"endTime":1340.7,"body":"meaningful that you feel like you can't talk to people about."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1340.7,"endTime":1342.059,"body":"Be a good counselor."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1342.059,"endTime":1343.74,"body":"It's r- it's really helpful. I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1343.74,"endTime":1346.779,"body":"think before I studied this, if somebody told me a story, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.779,"endTime":1349.2,"body":"would've listened and shown compassion, but in the back of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1349.2,"endTime":1350.519,"body":"my mind, I probably would've thought,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1351.039,"endTime":1353.94,"body":"\"Ah, this is a dream. This person's a little crazy. They're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1353.94,"endTime":1354.96,"body":"a little nuts.\" I prob-"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1354.96,"endTime":1356.138,"body":"And I would've thought the same thing-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1356.138,"endTime":1357.059,"body":"I probably would have"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1357.059,"endTime":1357.92,"body":"... 20 years ago."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1357.92,"endTime":1359.839,"body":"I'm telling you, Steve, it's crazy. You know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1359.839,"endTime":1362.98,"body":"I've talked about this, that once I really studied it and saw"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1362.98,"endTime":1366.759,"body":"how prevalent it was and just have an ear to listen, how many"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1366.759,"endTime":1369.619,"body":"people share stories. We had a student in our apologetics"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1369.619,"endTime":1373.359,"body":"programs maybe five years ago, and she described how just being"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1373.359,"endTime":1376.96,"body":"in a serious car accident, the car flipping, time slowing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1376.96,"endTime":1382.279,"body":"down, and a man in a white robe that just was translucent, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1382.279,"endTime":1385.22,"body":"she's like, \"I just knew it was Jesus, reached out and told me I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1385.22,"endTime":1389.0,"body":"was gonna be okay,\" came out of this, transformed her life,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1389.0,"endTime":1391.42,"body":"which as you described, so many people with near-death"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1391.42,"endTime":1394.299,"body":"experiences, it's transformative for them."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1394.299,"endTime":1394.679,"body":"Yes, yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1394.679,"endTime":1396.779,"body":"Dreams are not typically, unless they're some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1396.779,"endTime":1399.839,"body":"kind of supernatural dream, but typically they're not, almost"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1399.839,"endTime":1402.579,"body":"all near-death experiences minimally haunt [chuckles] the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1402.579,"endTime":1407.48,"body":"person and are transformative. So she was like, \"This has"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1407.48,"endTime":1409.589,"body":"changed the direction of my life. I wanna come study"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1409.589,"endTime":1411.74,"body":"apologetics,\" like, it was really powerful, but I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1411.74,"endTime":1415.099,"body":"completely believed her. I affirmed, I listened, and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1415.099,"endTime":1417.9,"body":"think it was a positive experience for her. Now,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1418.579,"endTime":1419.839,"body":"I want you to tell us,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1420.48,"endTime":1422.699,"body":"what is maybe one or two"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1423.22,"endTime":1427.96,"body":"of the most common naturalistic explanations for this?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1427.96,"endTime":1428.199,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1428.199,"endTime":1431.059,"body":"And before doing so, I just sent out a tweet,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1431.059,"endTime":1434.319,"body":"like, a week or two ago, and I said to a- I said, \"If you don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1434.319,"endTime":1437.339,"body":"believe in God, is there anything about the world that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1437.339,"endTime":1441.24,"body":"gives you pause?\" And an atheist I've known for 25 years, one of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1441.24,"endTime":1444.349,"body":"the smartest atheists I know, he said, \"Near-death experiences"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1445.059,"endTime":1448.179,"body":"make me think twice about my physicalism.\" And I thought,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1448.179,"endTime":1450.388,"body":"\"That's really interesting.\""},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1450.388,"endTime":1450.44,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1450.44,"endTime":1453.319,"body":"So what would be one or two leading naturalistic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1453.319,"endTime":1456.259,"body":"responses, and why aren't you convinced?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1456.259,"endTime":1458.699,"body":"Sure, and we need to be very open. I mean,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1458.699,"endTime":1462.059,"body":"scientifically thinking and objectively thinking, we need to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1462.059,"endTime":1465.878,"body":"take any hypothesis that might explain things and look at"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1465.878,"endTime":1466.539,"body":"it in the eye."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1466.539,"endTime":1466.549,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1466.549,"endTime":1469.059,"body":"If these are not real, we need to know it,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1469.059,"endTime":1472.079,"body":"and we need to be able to help people from that perspective."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1472.659,"endTime":1476.079,"body":"Moody actually listed a lot of these in his original book in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1476.079,"endTime":1480.878,"body":"1975. So over and over, the researchers have tried to"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1480.878,"endTime":1484.319,"body":"control for these to see, was it caused by drugs? Well, a lot of"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1484.319,"endTime":1488.44,"body":"these people, were not on morphine or any kind- ... Of"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1488.44,"endTime":1491.299,"body":"hallucinenic-genic drugs, and you can look at the doctor's"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1491.299,"endTime":1495.599,"body":"records. That kind of rules that out in cases. Some would say"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1495.599,"endTime":1500.186,"body":"that lack of oxygen-... Is, the problem, but people who lack"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1500.186,"endTime":1503.147,"body":"oxygen, they're f- they're, they're,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1503.928,"endTime":1508.887,"body":"if they're passing out from that, their thinking gets fuzzy,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1508.887,"endTime":1511.887,"body":"whereas in a near-death experience, it's, it's very"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1511.887,"endTime":1518.027,"body":"clear and unforgettable, very different from, lack of oxygen."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1518.027,"endTime":1522.867,"body":"Some will say maybe a DMT-type hallucinogenic drug, something"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1522.867,"endTime":1526.788,"body":"natural in our brains goes off at a time of death, which makes"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1526.788,"endTime":1531.027,"body":"us hallucinate about things, and we feel good and all this."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1531.027,"endTime":1533.587,"body":"But if you com- there have been some very good studies comparing"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1533.587,"endTime":1537.548,"body":"the DMT experience to the near-death experience, and while"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1537.548,"endTime":1540.487,"body":"there's overlap, like people feel like they're really on the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1540.487,"endTime":1541.847,"body":"other side,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1542.647,"endTime":1544.967,"body":"outside of their b- or not necessarily outside of their"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1544.967,"endTime":1547.667,"body":"bodies, but they're outside of this physical reality,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1548.327,"endTime":1552.667,"body":"when you look at the specifics, those type people, will"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1552.667,"endTime":1556.107,"body":"talk about seeing... Yes, they see sentient beings on the other"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1556.107,"endTime":1560.807,"body":"side, but those beings tend to be like clowns or talking"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1560.807,"endTime":1562.067,"body":"insects."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1562.067,"endTime":1562.307,"body":"Huh."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1562.307,"endTime":1564.607,"body":"And nobody that I know that's experienced a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1564.607,"endTime":1568.027,"body":"near-death experience are experiencing those. Very few on"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1568.027,"endTime":1572.347,"body":"DMT are gonna experience a deceased relative, and yet here"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1572.347,"endTime":1575.087,"body":"in near-death and deathbed experiences, it's deceased"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1575.087,"endTime":1578.707,"body":"relatives, it's angels. It's very specific, very different."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1578.707,"endTime":1582.627,"body":"So I just say these naturalistic hypotheses have been looked at"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1582.627,"endTime":1586.307,"body":"by researchers for their lifetimes of research, and one"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1586.307,"endTime":1589.107,"body":"after another, they've just had to say, \"No, that just really"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1589.107,"endTime":1590.327,"body":"doesn't fit with the data"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1590.907,"endTime":1593.487,"body":"that we have from near-death experiences.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1593.487,"endTime":1595.867,"body":"So Steve, one, I think one final question, at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1595.867,"endTime":1597.007,"body":"least from me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1597.707,"endTime":1599.827,"body":"I'm curious, you know, we've talked a lot about a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1599.827,"endTime":1604.587,"body":"different things here today, but in... Just to su- to summarize,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1604.587,"endTime":1609.567,"body":"give me one or two components of what you think it means to think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1609.567,"endTime":1612.946,"body":"biblically about these near-death experiences."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1612.946,"endTime":1614.647,"body":"Well, I've been reading through the Bible"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1614.647,"endTime":1619.946,"body":"on visions and just was shocked to see how many times visions"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1619.946,"endTime":1623.686,"body":"are mentioned. Almost every chapter of Genesis, except for"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1623.686,"endTime":1627.127,"body":"maybe two or three, has a vision"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1628.247,"endTime":1631.247,"body":"[chuckles] in it, and they're talking about visions. Abraham"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1631.247,"endTime":1637.186,"body":"has a vision, okay? And, and it impacted him evidentially enough"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1637.186,"endTime":1641.667,"body":"to move his whole family and make plans based upon it."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1642.887,"endTime":1646.087,"body":"You look at the Book of Acts, they're all through the b- what,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1646.087,"endTime":1650.268,"body":"Book of Acts, all the way to the end. So when I'm looking at it,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1650.268,"endTime":1654.768,"body":"this is a very biblical thing to talk about. And yet, when I look"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1654.768,"endTime":1660.327,"body":"through all the seminars going on here, a- I don't see much on"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1660.327,"endTime":1663.827,"body":"visions. I didn't see anything on visions. I think that we've"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1663.827,"endTime":1666.946,"body":"just stopped talking about these things. They're extremely"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1666.946,"endTime":1671.247,"body":"biblical. There are all kinds of visions in the Bible that people"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1671.247,"endTime":1675.007,"body":"are having, a multitude of different types. We, we see in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1675.007,"endTime":1680.087,"body":"the Transfiguration that Jesus and his top-tier disciples"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1680.087,"endTime":1684.207,"body":"actually experienced some long-deceased people. Well,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1684.207,"endTime":1687.147,"body":"that's what we often see in near-death experiences. You look"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1687.147,"endTime":1691.807,"body":"at Stephen, and at his death, he has a deathbed experience. You"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1691.807,"endTime":1696.007,"body":"see the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, that... What he"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1696.007,"endTime":1698.747,"body":"expresses there, he said, \"I don't know if I was in the body"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1698.747,"endTime":1703.147,"body":"or outside of the body,\" but he calls it paradise or heaven. He"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1703.147,"endTime":1705.867,"body":"was on the other side and thought it was possible he was"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1705.867,"endTime":1709.247,"body":"outside of his body. So I don't see how someone can come and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1709.247,"endTime":1712.907,"body":"say, \"Oh, this is unbiblical.\" Visions are very biblical, and"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1712.907,"endTime":1717.007,"body":"they seem like they're very consistent with visions to me,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1717.007,"endTime":1720.057,"body":"and when you get into the best research, I don't see it"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1720.057,"endTime":1724.227,"body":"conflicting what we see taught in the scriptures. So,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1724.987,"endTime":1729.227,"body":"yes, we need to do a good job of both having great theology"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1729.807,"endTime":1733.807,"body":"and seeing the best of near-death research, rather than"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1733.807,"endTime":1737.407,"body":"just kind of hearing some things on the web and treating it"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1737.407,"endTime":1740.547,"body":"lightly. Because these are important, and we need to help"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1740.547,"endTime":1744.707,"body":"people think through which worldviews or which worldview"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1744.707,"endTime":1748.387,"body":"fits best with the data we have, and for their own experiences,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1748.387,"endTime":1749.707,"body":"how to interpret them."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1749.707,"endTime":1751.507,"body":"I think you've done that better than anybody."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1751.507,"endTime":1754.707,"body":"In your books, you say, \"Why can't New Age explain this? Why"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1754.707,"endTime":1755.047,"body":"can't,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1755.887,"endTime":1759.647,"body":"worldviews like naturalism explain this?\" Monism can't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1759.647,"endTime":1762.768,"body":"explain it, on and on and on, and show how it points"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1762.768,"endTime":1765.807,"body":"distinctly, in many ways, towards a Christian worldview."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1765.807,"endTime":1768.107,"body":"You're working on your fourth or your fifth book on near-death"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1768.107,"endTime":1768.227,"body":"experiences?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1768.227,"endTime":1768.946,"body":"Fourth book."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1768.946,"endTime":1770.837,"body":"Working on your fourth book. For those who say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1770.837,"endTime":1774.727,"body":"\"All right, I'm intrigued, I wanna consider the evidence,\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1774.727,"endTime":1777.747,"body":"which of your books would be the place to start?"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1777.747,"endTime":1780.288,"body":"Just start with my first book, and I go by"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1780.288,"endTime":1784.027,"body":"J. Steve Miller, the letter J, Steve Miller, to distinguish me"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1784.027,"endTime":1785.367,"body":"from the band."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1785.367,"endTime":1785.376,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1785.376,"endTime":1785.407,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1785.407,"endTime":1785.657,"body":"And,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1786.847,"endTime":1790.387,"body":"you can, But it's Near Death Experiences as Evidence for the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1790.387,"endTime":1794.207,"body":"Existence of God and Heaven. It's really an easy read, but I"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1794.207,"endTime":1797.788,"body":"document it relentlessly- ... So that will introduce you to the"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1797.788,"endTime":1803.768,"body":"research, the naturalistic responses, plus, about t- a"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1803.768,"endTime":1808.627,"body":"dozen lines of evidence that I think indicate that these, that"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1808.627,"endTime":1811.917,"body":"often these experiences that are talked about are actually real,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1811.917,"endTime":1815.507,"body":"and experiences with the other side, giving evidence for God in"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1815.507,"endTime":1818.407,"body":"heaven. So I would start there, and I have several books out,"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1818.407,"endTime":1821.347,"body":"and I try to keep them inexpensive, so... And if you"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1821.347,"endTime":1825.727,"body":"can't afford it, email me, jstevemiller@gmail.com. I'll"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1825.727,"endTime":1829.587,"body":"send you a free PDF. I'm not out for the money. This is important"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1829.587,"endTime":1833.367,"body":"stuff. We need to know if this is of God or what."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1833.367,"endTime":1834.907,"body":"Oh, that's really generous of you to send"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1834.907,"endTime":1835.686,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1835.686,"endTime":1835.837,"body":"That's a nice offer."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1835.837,"endTime":1836.147,"body":"That is,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1836.847,"endTime":1839.867,"body":"the first book that I read. Again, J.P. Moreland recommended"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1839.867,"endTime":1840.696,"body":"it, and,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1841.207,"endTime":1844.087,"body":"I don't say this lightly. It was game-changing for me, and that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.087,"endTime":1846.347,"body":"one of the reasons [chuckles] I think you've been on my show"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1846.347,"endTime":1849.607,"body":"five or six times. We have you coming back up in a few weeks."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1849.607,"endTime":1853.768,"body":"We've talked about, hellish near-death experiences. We've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1853.768,"endTime":1857.047,"body":"talked about deathbed experiences. So that would be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1857.047,"endTime":1859.387,"body":"another place. Just go to YouTube, and there's probably"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1859.387,"endTime":1862.667,"body":"five or six hours of you and I talking live, taking questions,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1862.667,"endTime":1864.827,"body":"the toughest objections to it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1865.507,"endTime":1867.957,"body":"So we will definitely have you back. This is-"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1867.957,"endTime":1869.987,"body":"And, and if you want to have a discussion on"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1869.987,"endTime":1874.268,"body":"it, go below one of those interviews, and I really enjoy"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1874.268,"endTime":1878.107,"body":"discussing and talking to people. So that's, that's"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1878.107,"endTime":1881.367,"body":"another area where you could say that we're dealing with people's"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1881.367,"endTime":1884.807,"body":"real questions and not scooting around, avoiding them."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1884.807,"endTime":1886.527,"body":"Yeah, if you... Honestly, listening to this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1886.527,"endTime":1890.647,"body":"this has amazed me about you, Steve, is that you respond to so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1890.647,"endTime":1893.788,"body":"many of the questions personally that people send in. So if"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1893.788,"endTime":1896.307,"body":"people have had an experience and they have questions,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1896.987,"endTime":1899.768,"body":"you can mail them in through our Think Biblically. It'll come to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1899.768,"endTime":1902.047,"body":"us through my website. I'll forward it to you,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1902.627,"endTime":1905.747,"body":"and I know you do your best to answer personally as many"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1905.747,"endTime":1906.577,"body":"[chuckles] of those as you can."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1906.577,"endTime":1908.507,"body":"I'm a couple of months behind, but I'm... But"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1908.507,"endTime":1910.097,"body":"I keep trying to catch up, because-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1910.097,"endTime":1912.487,"body":"This may ramp it up a little bit, but you do an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1912.487,"endTime":1915.186,"body":"amazing job serving people. That's just really a special"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1915.186,"endTime":1917.946,"body":"ministry. So it's great to finally introduce you to our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1917.946,"endTime":1920.727,"body":"audience here at Think Biblically, and we'll definitely"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1920.727,"endTime":1921.867,"body":"have you back."},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1921.867,"endTime":1923.707,"body":"Thanks for all you do, Scott and Sean. We"},{"speaker":"J. Steve Miller","startTime":1923.707,"endTime":1925.257,"body":"appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1925.257,"endTime":1927.227,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1927.227,"endTime":1931.127,"body":"Biblically, conversations on faith and culture. The Think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1931.127,"endTime":1933.347,"body":"Biblically podcast is brought to you by Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1933.347,"endTime":1936.887,"body":"Theology, Biola University. We have programs in apologetics,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1936.887,"endTime":1940.567,"body":"spiritual formation, Bible, theology, marriage, Old"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1940.567,"endTime":1943.407,"body":"Testament philosophy. I haven't even started to mention all of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1943.407,"endTime":1947.946,"body":"them, online and in person. To submit comments or questions,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1947.946,"endTime":1952.607,"body":"please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. We"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1952.607,"endTime":1957.186,"body":"would deeply appreciate a podcast rating on your podcast"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1957.186,"endTime":1960.867,"body":"app. Each one helps, and if you found this fascinating, share it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1960.867,"endTime":1963.827,"body":"with a friend. Thanks for listening, and we will see you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1963.827,"endTime":1967.268,"body":"Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1967.268,"endTime":1976.887,"body":"remember to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}