{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.86,"body":"[upbeat music] Why does God allow disabilities?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.86,"endTime":7.839,"body":"What is disability theology, and what are the implications of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":7.839,"endTime":11.0,"body":"this for the church? In what sense will disabilities be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":11.0,"endTime":14.279,"body":"healed when we meet the Lord when He returns? We'll answer"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":14.279,"endTime":16.98,"body":"these questions and more with our guest, Dr. Chris Ralston."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.98,"endTime":20.01,"body":"Chris is a Talbot philosophy grad. He's gone on to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":20.01,"endTime":24.66,"body":"distinguish himself with several master degrees and a PhD. But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":24.66,"endTime":26.859,"body":"we're looking forward to this. I'm your host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":26.859,"endTime":28.179,"body":"And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":28.179,"endTime":29.859,"body":"This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":29.859,"endTime":33.219,"body":"Theology, Biola University. Chris, welcome. Really glad to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":33.219,"endTime":36.28,"body":"have you with us. I remember when you were a student here,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":36.28,"endTime":39.079,"body":"and then you've gone on... You went on and got a PhD at Rice in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":39.079,"endTime":39.75,"body":"bioethics,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":40.799,"endTime":44.109,"body":"and have worked for Joni and Friends for a while. But one of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":44.109,"endTime":47.24,"body":"the things, you have an article that in-- that tells your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":47.24,"endTime":52.5,"body":"personal story, entitled, \"Why Am I Disabled?\" So tell us a bit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":52.5,"endTime":54.179,"body":"of that story."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":54.179,"endTime":56.34,"body":"Sure. Sure. Well, first of all, it's, great"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":56.34,"endTime":58.74,"body":"to be here, so thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":59.7,"endTime":63.679,"body":"So I came to faith in Christ, as a little boy, which was, really"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":63.679,"endTime":66.859,"body":"the most important decision of my life. And then I've been"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":66.859,"endTime":69.219,"body":"married for about seven and a half years, which is the second"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":69.219,"endTime":72.099,"body":"most important decision of my life, as well as probably the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":72.099,"endTime":75.319,"body":"most brilliant decision I ever made. And-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":75.319,"endTime":77.659,"body":"I've met your wife. I can attest to that."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":77.659,"endTime":80.34,"body":"Yes, exactly. So I definitely married up,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":80.34,"endTime":82.2,"body":"let's just put it that way. So,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":83.079,"endTime":86.2,"body":"so really, a big part of my story is that I'm alive today"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":86.2,"endTime":90.319,"body":"because of the choice, the decision that my mom made, to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":90.319,"endTime":94.0,"body":"choose life for me because even though sh- even though she knew"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":94.0,"endTime":95.98,"body":"that I would be born with disabilities."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":96.859,"endTime":99.26,"body":"In utero, while she was pregnant, I was exposed to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":99.26,"endTime":102.26,"body":"rubella, or German measles, it's often called."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":103.519,"endTime":106.04,"body":"And as a result of which, I was born with a congenital"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":106.04,"endTime":110.099,"body":"neuromuscular disorder, that left me with, some mobility"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":110.099,"endTime":113.9,"body":"issues. I use a crutch and a mealch- and a wheelchair for"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":113.9,"endTime":117.719,"body":"mobility. Mostly deaf in one ear, which can sometimes be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":117.719,"endTime":121.42,"body":"convenient, when you don't want to hear things. [chuckles] I"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":121.42,"endTime":126.92,"body":"have a mild speech impediment, and also some chronic, health,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":126.92,"endTime":128.439,"body":"chronic health issues and,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":129.439,"endTime":132.419,"body":"pain, issues with chronic pain and that kind of thing. But one"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":132.419,"endTime":135.28,"body":"of the perks of that is I always get the best parking spots."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":135.28,"endTime":137.93,"body":"[chuckles] So there's always a, there's always a silver lining"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":137.93,"endTime":138.84,"body":"to everything."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":140.419,"endTime":143.78,"body":"God gave me a love for w- for word, for literature, for"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":143.78,"endTime":145.289,"body":"philosophy and theology,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":145.8,"endTime":149.259,"body":"and so forth. So I've spent most of my young adult life, pursuing"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":149.259,"endTime":151.5,"body":"academic degrees, including the two from,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":152.039,"endTime":155.28,"body":"Biola that you mentioned. And I've had just some great"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":155.28,"endTime":156.539,"body":"opportunities in life,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":157.36,"endTime":161.129,"body":"such as doing this interview, working for Joni and Friends,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":161.129,"endTime":165.199,"body":"[chuckles] serving as a fellow at the CBHD Academy, the Academy"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":165.199,"endTime":167.479,"body":"of Fellow at the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":168.819,"endTime":170.479,"body":"and working on some exciting publishing"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":171.0,"endTime":174.28,"body":"projects. So it's a really amazing opportunity that I've"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":174.28,"endTime":178.0,"body":"had in life, but I've also had, I've also experienced some of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":178.0,"endTime":178.78,"body":"the more difficult"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":179.379,"endTime":181.539,"body":"challenges that can go along with being disabled,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":182.36,"endTime":185.379,"body":"being isolated, being- ... Disregarded,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":185.9,"endTime":187.12,"body":"belittled. Um-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":187.879,"endTime":190.58,"body":"I was even told once that I was insurance"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":190.58,"endTime":191.759,"body":"liability."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":191.759,"endTime":191.819,"body":"Oh, my goodness."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":191.819,"endTime":195.109,"body":"So the point, the point is that,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":196.58,"endTime":199.36,"body":"disability has both its upsides and its downsides."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":200.08,"endTime":204.0,"body":"My story ultimately is not dramatic, but it is a story of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":204.0,"endTime":204.86,"body":"God's grace"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":205.4,"endTime":208.159,"body":"and mercy. There's been challenges, but there's also"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":208.159,"endTime":211.12,"body":"been blessings. [chuckles] That's a little overview of my-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":211.12,"endTime":211.129,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":211.129,"endTime":213.039,"body":"... Just my personal story."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":213.979,"endTime":215.96,"body":"Tell us, make the connection from your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":215.96,"endTime":220.08,"body":"personal story to deciding you wanted to study this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":220.08,"endTime":223.62,"body":"professionally and write and work for, say, Joni Eareckson"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":223.62,"endTime":225.52,"body":"Tada's ministry."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":225.52,"endTime":229.3,"body":"Sure, sure. So I would say probably as far back"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":229.3,"endTime":231.759,"body":"as maybe junior high, somewhere around that age,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":232.62,"endTime":235.86,"body":"I began to learn a- learn about and become interested in things"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":235.86,"endTime":238.96,"body":"like, issues like abortion and euthanasia and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":238.96,"endTime":242.259,"body":"physician-assisted suicide, and that really fueled,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":242.259,"endTime":243.36,"body":"[clears throat] really a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":244.699,"endTime":245.439,"body":"deep,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":245.979,"endTime":250.53,"body":"commitment and conviction about the value of human life, of all"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":250.53,"endTime":254.5,"body":"human life, no matter how seemingly imperfect or weak,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":255.139,"endTime":256.449,"body":"they might be,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":257.06,"endTime":260.24,"body":"throughout all, and from at all stages of life. And so really,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":260.24,"endTime":261.259,"body":"as a result of that,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":262.06,"endTime":266.24,"body":"that led me then into pr- wanting to communicate those"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":266.24,"endTime":269.86,"body":"kinds of ideas in a way, in effect, in-- effectively, in a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":269.86,"endTime":270.8,"body":"way that people can"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":271.339,"endTime":274.72,"body":"understand and relate to. So that really led me to Biola,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":274.72,"endTime":276.899,"body":"where I, as an undergrad, I studied"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":277.42,"endTime":279.66,"body":"communications. [chuckles] Initially, I was thinking maybe"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":279.66,"endTime":282.22,"body":"I'd go into the film industry or something like that. God"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":282.22,"endTime":285.92,"body":"definitely had other plans, because along the way, I caught"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":285.92,"endTime":286.56,"body":"the f- the,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":287.139,"endTime":290.139,"body":"sort of the philosophy bug, and when,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":290.8,"endTime":295.079,"body":"then the MA philosophy program started there at Talbot."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":295.759,"endTime":299.36,"body":"So I went ahead and, did that program, and that really,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":300.06,"endTime":303.12,"body":"sort of stepped me on a trajectory, really that has then"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":303.12,"endTime":303.68,"body":"influenced"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":304.199,"endTime":306.72,"body":"a lot of the rest, the rest of my life. As, as you mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":306.72,"endTime":308.06,"body":"Scott, I went on and got a couple"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":308.6,"endTime":312.019,"body":"master's degrees in philosophy and bioethics, and then"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":312.019,"endTime":314.939,"body":"ultimately ended up, doing a PhD in philosophy."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":315.66,"endTime":318.519,"body":"[clears throat] And that led me into... And then even, and then"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":318.519,"endTime":321.66,"body":"after that, after I got done with the PhD, had this amazing"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":321.66,"endTime":324.519,"body":"opportunity to work at Joni and Friends, which is a, for people"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":324.519,"endTime":326.42,"body":"who may not be familiar with Joni and Friends,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":326.939,"endTime":330.98,"body":"it's a, Christian nonprofit disability ministry that serves"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":330.98,"endTime":333.779,"body":"and works alongside people with disabilities, really throughout"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":333.779,"endTime":336.12,"body":"the world, both here in the United States and around the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":336.12,"endTime":341.139,"body":"world. And of course, that got me, or really forced me to think"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":341.139,"endTime":345.379,"body":"more deeply about things like disability theology, disability"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":345.379,"endTime":349.36,"body":"ethics, these kinds of things. And so really, I've just had the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":349.36,"endTime":354.12,"body":"opportunity to think about, to reflect on, to write about,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":354.12,"endTime":357.36,"body":"issues related to disability theology and ethics."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":358.0,"endTime":361.439,"body":"And I... And into that mix, I bring my own personal experience"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":362.06,"endTime":364.439,"body":"as a person with a disability. Obviously, these are not just"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":364.439,"endTime":366.079,"body":"abstract issues for me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":366.079,"endTime":366.48,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":367.3,"endTime":369.62,"body":"I know what it's like. I know what it's like"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":369.62,"endTime":373.255,"body":"to-... Feel like your body has betrayed you, or to feel like,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":373.255,"endTime":373.675,"body":"you know, you"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":374.315,"endTime":375.175,"body":"don't have the strength"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":375.815,"endTime":377.675,"body":"to do what you need to do in life."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":378.755,"endTime":383.536,"body":"So concrete or abstract bioethics and theology issues"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":383.536,"endTime":384.836,"body":"become very personal for me"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":385.615,"endTime":387.514,"body":"as a result of that experience. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":387.514,"endTime":389.074,"body":"So Chris, that's really helpful. I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":389.074,"endTime":393.755,"body":"appreciate that a lot. But tell us a little bit about how we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":393.755,"endTime":398.194,"body":"should think theologically about disability."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":399.475,"endTime":401.216,"body":"Sure. So,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":401.725,"endTime":403.706,"body":"[inhales] as,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":404.394,"endTime":407.435,"body":"Joni Eareckson Tada, who I used to work for, but, she's often"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":407.435,"endTime":411.675,"body":"fond of saying, she's often fond of saying that, \"Disability is a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":411.675,"endTime":414.375,"body":"normal part of life in an abnormal world.\""},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":415.475,"endTime":418.156,"body":"And I think that's a helpful way of thinking about disability. A"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":418.156,"endTime":421.415,"body":"couple of important points that I like to emphasize, when"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":421.415,"endTime":424.716,"body":"thinking about the theology of disabilities. First thing I"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":424.716,"endTime":429.216,"body":"think is that disability is not an accident or a mistake from"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":429.216,"endTime":431.276,"body":"God's perspective."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":432.435,"endTime":436.795,"body":"When we think about in terms of God's divine providence, we know"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":436.795,"endTime":440.375,"body":"from Scripture that God works all things according to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":440.375,"endTime":442.815,"body":"His will to accomplish His purposes, as we're told in"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":442.815,"endTime":445.656,"body":"Romans eight twenty-eight. His good purpose for those that love"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":445.656,"endTime":450.194,"body":"Him and are called according to His purpose. So while disability"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":450.194,"endTime":452.526,"body":"may have, [sniffs]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":454.555,"endTime":457.596,"body":"a, for example, a physical component to it, you know,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":457.596,"endTime":459.055,"body":"genetic disorders,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":460.656,"endTime":463.634,"body":"you know, traumatic injury, these kinds of things,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":464.394,"endTime":467.295,"body":"there's also another layer of explanation that we"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":467.295,"endTime":469.716,"body":"have to think about, and that is the le- the level of divine"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":469.716,"endTime":471.096,"body":"providence."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":472.995,"endTime":476.175,"body":"[lips smack] so I think of, for example, in Exodus, four,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":476.975,"endTime":479.475,"body":"[clears throat] verses ten to twelve, when,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":480.076,"endTime":482.175,"body":"God calls Moses and He says, \"Hey,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":483.156,"endTime":486.795,"body":"go down to, go down to Egypt. Tell Pharaoh to let my people"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":486.795,"endTime":491.134,"body":"go, and I'm gonna have you lead my people out of slavery.\" And"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":491.134,"endTime":494.415,"body":"God-- And Moses says- \"But I can't speak. I'm, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":494.415,"endTime":498.235,"body":"eloquent. I don't know how to do this.\" Moses... Or God says back"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":498.235,"endTime":501.264,"body":"to Moses- \"Who gave man his mouth?\""},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":501.805,"endTime":503.504,"body":"\"Was it-- Wasn't it me?\""},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":504.115,"endTime":504.415,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":505.134,"endTime":509.355,"body":"there's, there's often a debate about whether God causes"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":509.355,"endTime":513.556,"body":"disability or simply permits it. But the bottom line, and Jo-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":513.556,"endTime":516.556,"body":"this is one thing that Joni is oft- as well fond of saying, is"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":516.556,"endTime":516.716,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":517.316,"endTime":519.336,"body":"by the time it actually gets to us,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":520.056,"endTime":523.546,"body":"God has signed off on it. [chuckles] So we can... So"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":523.546,"endTime":526.056,"body":"whether we think of Him as actively causing it or"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":526.056,"endTime":526.855,"body":"permitting it,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":527.475,"endTime":532.956,"body":"it's not from God's perspective, a mistake or an accident. It's"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":532.956,"endTime":533.565,"body":"something that,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":534.216,"endTime":537.576,"body":"from His perspective, He has said- \"Yes, I will allow that. I"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":537.576,"endTime":541.615,"body":"will allow that and permit that into that person's life.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":541.615,"endTime":542.015,"body":"Okay, let me-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":542.015,"endTime":542.855,"body":"Second thing that I think-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":542.855,"endTime":543.155,"body":"Go ahead."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":543.155,"endTime":543.796,"body":"I'm sorry, go ahead."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":543.796,"endTime":545.015,"body":"No, go ahead. You have a second thing."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":545.015,"endTime":546.956,"body":"I was... [chuckles] Yeah. I was gonna say"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":546.956,"endTime":549.735,"body":"also, I think another really important thing is to emphasize"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":549.735,"endTime":549.946,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":551.434,"endTime":552.836,"body":"[clears throat] while,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":553.696,"endTime":556.275,"body":"while... The, the question that always come up- comes up- What"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":556.275,"endTime":560.716,"body":"is the, what's the place of sin and the Fall in thinking about"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":560.716,"endTime":565.816,"body":"disability? And to be sure, sin has something to do-- or sorry,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":565.816,"endTime":568.316,"body":"disability has something to do with sin, no question about"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":568.316,"endTime":572.336,"body":"that. But it's important that we parse that out carefully. And I"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":572.336,"endTime":576.015,"body":"think the way we need to parse that out is, we live in a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":576.015,"endTime":579.434,"body":"fallen, a fallen, broken world, where things like genetic"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":579.434,"endTime":582.674,"body":"disorders and traumatic brain injuries and all the rest, all"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":582.674,"endTime":585.855,"body":"these things can happen. That's the sense in which sin"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":586.635,"endTime":589.086,"body":"and the Fall are connected to disability. But,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":589.735,"endTime":594.035,"body":"but on an individual level, [chuckles] we can't simply"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":594.035,"endTime":595.796,"body":"assume from the outset"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":596.655,"endTime":600.434,"body":"that the fact that someone has a disability necessarily"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":600.434,"endTime":603.914,"body":"means that they've somehow sinned, or their parents sinned,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":603.914,"endTime":606.316,"body":"or anything like that. And that's, that's a big issue"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":606.316,"endTime":609.855,"body":"because it, both historically in Jesus's time, as well as even"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":609.855,"endTime":613.355,"body":"down to today, there're o- there's often an assumption"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":613.355,"endTime":615.275,"body":"in a lot of cultures and a lot of places that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":615.895,"endTime":619.495,"body":"sin is the, is... Or disability is the marker or"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":620.235,"endTime":621.355,"body":"indicator of some kind of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":622.035,"endTime":626.395,"body":"sin or a curse that has been placed on that person. But"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":626.395,"endTime":630.855,"body":"Jesus, in John nine three, clearly and explicitly breaks"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":630.855,"endTime":632.193,"body":"that connection. [chuckles] He says,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":633.174,"endTime":636.285,"body":"when the disciples asked Jesus, \"Hey, who sinned? This, this,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":636.285,"endTime":639.296,"body":"this man or his parents?\" Jesus said, \"Neither this man"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":639.995,"endTime":644.414,"body":"nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":644.414,"endTime":647.836,"body":"God might be displayed in him.\" And then the final thing I think"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":647.836,"endTime":650.576,"body":"to understand about... Or the final two things, really, about"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":650.576,"endTime":653.535,"body":"disability that I think we need to understand theologically, is"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":653.535,"endTime":656.674,"body":"that rather than it being just sort of some, an unmitigated"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":656.674,"endTime":659.695,"body":"tragedy, disability is an opportunity for God to be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":659.695,"endTime":662.674,"body":"glorified. [chuckles] and I think that's something we'll"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":662.674,"endTime":664.865,"body":"probably return to in future questions. But,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":665.816,"endTime":667.125,"body":"but yeah, it's, it's an opportunity"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":667.934,"endTime":671.655,"body":"for God to be glorified, not just in spite of disability, but"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":671.655,"endTime":675.355,"body":"in and through it. And then ultimately, disability will be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":675.355,"endTime":681.336,"body":"redeemed in the eternal state. For those who, those in heaven,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":681.336,"endTime":683.836,"body":"for those who are in Christ, there will be no more pain. No"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":683.836,"endTime":688.275,"body":"more pain, no more suffering, no more sorrow, no more tears, and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":688.275,"endTime":691.755,"body":"disability will be seen to have a purpose in God's, in God's"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":691.755,"endTime":694.895,"body":"plan. Obviously, all four of those points, we could probably"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":694.895,"endTime":697.296,"body":"spend the next two hours unpacking all of those, but"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":697.296,"endTime":699.796,"body":"those, I think, are four key"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":700.336,"endTime":702.975,"body":"point, theological points to understand about how we think"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":702.975,"endTime":704.414,"body":"about disability."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":704.414,"endTime":706.836,"body":"Yeah, Chris, that's really helpful, especially the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":706.836,"endTime":710.076,"body":"way you framed that around those four main theological"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":710.076,"endTime":715.096,"body":"principles. Let me make it maybe a little more pointed follow-up."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":715.096,"endTime":715.235,"body":"Uh-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":715.235,"endTime":715.535,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":715.535,"endTime":719.475,"body":"You, you ask, you ask the question in one of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":719.475,"endTime":723.355,"body":"your articles that I read on this. You, you ask- What's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":723.355,"endTime":727.216,"body":"the point of my disability? [lips smack] So gi-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":727.216,"endTime":727.475,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":727.475,"endTime":729.716,"body":"... Given that, at the least, given that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.716,"endTime":732.198,"body":"God allows disability to exist-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":732.198,"endTime":734.259,"body":"... How do you answer that question of what's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":734.259,"endTime":736.899,"body":"what's the point of my disability?"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":736.899,"endTime":740.879,"body":"Sure. Sure. And I think the f- the-- I think my"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":740.879,"endTime":743.0,"body":"answer to that is twofold. I think one is there's an"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":743.0,"endTime":746.139,"body":"overarching point, and then there's a lot of other... And"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":746.139,"endTime":748.62,"body":"then there are n- a number of other points that may apply in"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":748.62,"endTime":752.62,"body":"some cases and not others. So here's what I'm getting at. I"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":752.62,"endTime":756.399,"body":"think ultimately, the point of disability, of God permitting it"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":756.399,"endTime":759.139,"body":"and allowing it, at the very least, is"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":759.799,"endTime":762.279,"body":"to bring glory to Him, to glorify God."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":763.74,"endTime":766.799,"body":"So the question is- how do we glorify God,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":767.36,"endTime":770.519,"body":"particularly in the context of disability? Well, here are some"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":770.519,"endTime":772.938,"body":"of the ways, and this is not ex- this is not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":773.599,"endTime":776.839,"body":"exhaustive, but at least some of the ways that we glorify God is"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":776.839,"endTime":780.399,"body":"we glorify God through things like complete dependence upon"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":780.399,"endTime":780.698,"body":"Him."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":781.679,"endTime":786.628,"body":"We glorify God when we love, unconditionally."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":787.458,"endTime":788.679,"body":"We glorify God"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":789.219,"endTime":793.259,"body":"when we allow His strength and His power to shine in our"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":793.259,"endTime":798.259,"body":"weaknesses. And we refu-- we also glorify God"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":798.899,"endTime":802.22,"body":"when we refuse to bow down to our culture's ideals,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":802.74,"endTime":803.299,"body":"ideals like"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":804.139,"endTime":807.639,"body":"ideals of health and beauty and productivity."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":808.539,"endTime":811.379,"body":"Disability, among other things,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":812.259,"endTime":815.659,"body":"call the... Is a, is a, is really a condemnation of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":816.299,"endTime":819.698,"body":"the-- our culture's idolization of perfection, beauty, and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":819.698,"endTime":824.198,"body":"health, and form, and function, and productivity, or at least"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":824.198,"endTime":825.019,"body":"can be."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":826.198,"endTime":829.62,"body":"So these are just a few of the ways in which we glorify God."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":831.059,"endTime":833.279,"body":"I think I mentioned unconditional love and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":833.279,"endTime":834.099,"body":"acceptance."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":834.958,"endTime":836.698,"body":"I think of my friends,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":837.379,"endTime":841.759,"body":"Gary and Debbie, from church, from my... The church that we go"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":841.759,"endTime":844.039,"body":"to, and, they,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":844.62,"endTime":849.759,"body":"recently lost their adult son, who about seventeen years"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":849.759,"endTime":854.859,"body":"ago was severely, brain injured, had a, had a severe traumatic"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":854.859,"endTime":858.799,"body":"brain injury- ... In a car a- in a car accident, and he was left"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":858.799,"endTime":863.318,"body":"with some really severe disabilities, that basically"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":863.318,"endTime":865.0,"body":"required twenty-four-hour care"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":865.639,"endTime":870.078,"body":"around the clock. They cared for him faithfully for seventeen"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":870.078,"endTime":870.578,"body":"years-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":870.578,"endTime":871.24,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":871.24,"endTime":873.539,"body":"... Until he recently passed away, about"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":873.539,"endTime":874.828,"body":"maybe two weeks ago, I think it was."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":876.47,"endTime":878.859,"body":"I think of-- when I think of unconditional love and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":878.859,"endTime":882.98,"body":"acceptance and affirming the dignity of all human life, no"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":882.98,"endTime":886.318,"body":"matter how seemingly weak or imperfect, they come to mind"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":886.318,"endTime":890.5,"body":"immediately. And so really, a shout-out to them, 'cause at"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":890.5,"endTime":893.039,"body":"some point, they'll be listening to this [chuckles] . But also,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":893.039,"endTime":893.458,"body":"just a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":894.0,"endTime":898.458,"body":"affirmation of, [clears throat] that is one way in which God"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":898.458,"endTime":902.22,"body":"glorifies Himself through disability, when we learn..."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":902.22,"endTime":906.159,"body":"Also, when we learn to depend upon God, things like that."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":907.458,"endTime":908.899,"body":"Now, in some cases,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":909.62,"endTime":912.779,"body":"disabilities can provide opportunity for growth and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":912.779,"endTime":913.359,"body":"virtue,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":914.419,"endTime":918.259,"body":"it can provide opportunity for service, and it"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":918.259,"endTime":921.24,"body":"can even provide opportunity to share the gospel."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":921.779,"endTime":923.639,"body":"For Gary and Debbie, for example, it opened up"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":923.639,"endTime":925.259,"body":"opportunities for them."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":926.12,"endTime":928.0,"body":"I wanna be careful with those last couple of things though,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":928.0,"endTime":931.039,"body":"because I don't want to leave the impression that disability"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":931.039,"endTime":934.019,"body":"is just something instrumental- ... That it, that-- to say that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":934.019,"endTime":936.599,"body":"the only thing that people with disabilities are good for-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":936.599,"endTime":936.649,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":937.24,"endTime":939.078,"body":"... Is to help others grow in virtue."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":939.078,"endTime":942.099,"body":"[chuckles] But there certainly are some cases where that can"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":942.099,"endTime":946.5,"body":"happen. But I think above all, the point of disability, of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":946.5,"endTime":951.438,"body":"why would God allow this? It has to do with His glory,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":951.438,"endTime":954.5,"body":"with honoring, bringing glory and honoring to Him, because"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":954.5,"endTime":958.059,"body":"it's in His... As we know, for example, from one of my favorite"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":958.059,"endTime":958.659,"body":"passages"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":959.259,"endTime":962.958,"body":"of Second Corinthians twelve, nine and ten, we know that God's"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":962.958,"endTime":965.599,"body":"strength shows up in our weaknesses."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":965.599,"endTime":966.339,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":966.899,"endTime":968.938,"body":"And that is where His gl- that is where His"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":968.938,"endTime":970.659,"body":"glory becomes most evident."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":972.279,"endTime":972.379,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":972.938,"endTime":975.559,"body":"help us think about this a little bit further, biblically,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":975.559,"endTime":976.359,"body":"if you will."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":976.359,"endTime":976.879,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":976.879,"endTime":979.779,"body":"And by the way, that story was beautiful about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":979.779,"endTime":982.438,"body":"your friends and just their faithfulness. What a testimony"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":982.438,"endTime":983.259,"body":"to the world-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":983.259,"endTime":983.399,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":983.399,"endTime":986.328,"body":"... Of just the value of just human life and-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":986.328,"endTime":989.179,"body":"... Loving God and loving others. I mean, wow, that's-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":989.179,"endTime":989.188,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":989.188,"endTime":990.438,"body":"... That's awesome."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":990.438,"endTime":990.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":990.919,"endTime":993.839,"body":"Help, help us understand how resurrection and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":993.839,"endTime":995.119,"body":"future resurrection"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":995.779,"endTime":999.539,"body":"helps us understand the point of disability today, and just how"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":999.539,"endTime":1001.759,"body":"we think about disabilities."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1001.759,"endTime":1003.7,"body":"Sure, sure. So a couple of thoughts on that."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1005.5,"endTime":1007.679,"body":"I think the first thing I would say, and again, and I mentioned"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1007.679,"endTime":1010.919,"body":"this before, but that, [clears throat] one thing that's"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1010.919,"endTime":1012.7,"body":"really important about understanding that in the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1012.7,"endTime":1016.059,"body":"resurrection, however we cash this out, Scripture doesn't"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1016.059,"endTime":1018.078,"body":"obviously give us a lot of details"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1018.679,"endTime":1019.639,"body":"about what the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1020.24,"endTime":1023.599,"body":"resurrected eternal state will look like. But what we do-- we"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1023.599,"endTime":1026.46,"body":"do know enough from Scripture, though, to know that there will"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1026.46,"endTime":1030.24,"body":"be no more pain, there will be no more sorrow. As Second"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1030.24,"endTime":1031.779,"body":"Corinthians four-seventeen tells us,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1032.559,"endTime":1035.598,"body":"\"Our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1035.598,"endTime":1039.078,"body":"eternal glory that will far outweigh them all.\""},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1039.638,"endTime":1042.519,"body":"so our future glory will surpa- will surpass"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1043.138,"endTime":1046.138,"body":"any challenges or suffering or disability that we in-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1046.138,"endTime":1050.65,"body":"experience in this life, which is not to sugarcoat or minimize-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1050.65,"endTime":1051.299,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1051.299,"endTime":1053.72,"body":"... You know, the reality of what disability"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1053.72,"endTime":1057.619,"body":"is in this life or can be in this life, but it is simply to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1057.619,"endTime":1061.0,"body":"say that our future glory will surpass that, and that is a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1061.0,"endTime":1064.359,"body":"glorious hope that we have from Scripture. [clears throat] So"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1064.359,"endTime":1066.759,"body":"what we know from Scripture is... What we do know from"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1066.759,"endTime":1071.019,"body":"Scripture is we have promises in multiple passages, throughout"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1071.019,"endTime":1073.819,"body":"Scripture, that we will have a trans... That we will all have"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1074.378,"endTime":1079.42,"body":"a transformed, glorified body and mind. And again, Scripture"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1079.42,"endTime":1082.259,"body":"doesn't elaborate a whole lot on what that looks like and feels"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1082.259,"endTime":1083.679,"body":"like and what that's gonna be like,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1084.619,"endTime":1087.179,"body":"but it-- that does give us real hope"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1087.799,"endTime":1090.94,"body":"that disability will be transformed, and it will be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1090.94,"endTime":1095.288,"body":"redeemed.... The other thing that I think is, that I like to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1095.288,"endTime":1096.508,"body":"talk about is the fact that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1097.067,"endTime":1101.208,"body":"disability will forever be a part of the testimony,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1101.867,"endTime":1103.907,"body":"[inhales] that, for example, in my life, my"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1103.907,"endTime":1107.968,"body":"disability will always be a part of the, my testimony of how God"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1107.968,"endTime":1112.538,"body":"worked graciously in my life. And again, I return back to 2"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1112.538,"endTime":1115.587,"body":"Corinthians 12-9 and 10, which has kind of, [clears throat]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1115.587,"endTime":1118.607,"body":"which for me, has kinda become a theme verse in my life."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1119.347,"endTime":1121.508,"body":"But that's something I will always be able to point to and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1121.508,"endTime":1125.968,"body":"say- Look at how God worked in my life. For other people, they"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1125.968,"endTime":1128.428,"body":"may have others-- other people will have other stories, but for"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1128.428,"endTime":1130.468,"body":"me, that will be part of my story."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1130.988,"endTime":1131.528,"body":"And so"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1132.327,"endTime":1135.907,"body":"I think what I would argue, and again, so much to unpack here,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1135.907,"endTime":1138.488,"body":"but I would argue that in a non-theistic universe,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1138.488,"endTime":1141.357,"body":"disability really doesn't have any point."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1141.357,"endTime":1141.387,"body":"Good point."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1141.387,"endTime":1143.928,"body":"But in a theistic, in a theistic, in a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1143.928,"endTime":1144.508,"body":"specifically"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1145.688,"endTime":1149.448,"body":"Christian universe, disability does have a point,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1150.367,"endTime":1153.387,"body":"and that is not the end of the story that God is writing."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1154.028,"endTime":1157.087,"body":"Instead, it's just the beginning."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1157.087,"endTime":1159.567,"body":"So Chris, let me, let me dig a little deeper on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1159.567,"endTime":1160.298,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1160.298,"endTime":1160.647,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1160.647,"endTime":1162.528,"body":"In fact, I love with the way you put it in one"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1162.528,"endTime":1165.048,"body":"of your articles. You say that- \"Healing is coming, we just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1165.048,"endTime":1166.867,"body":"don't know the delivery date.\""},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1166.867,"endTime":1167.448,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1167.448,"endTime":1169.748,"body":"I think that's a, that's a great word. But here,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1169.748,"endTime":1172.948,"body":"maybe this is the question directly- Are you anticipating"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1173.847,"endTime":1176.428,"body":"that in the resurrection, when you meet the Lord, that you will"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1176.428,"endTime":1177.048,"body":"be healed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1177.708,"endTime":1179.847,"body":"of your disabilities?"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1181.048,"endTime":1182.708,"body":"So the short answer is, yes, I do."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1183.887,"endTime":1186.528,"body":"Now, again, obviously, as I mentioned just a moment ago,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1186.528,"endTime":1188.788,"body":"there's a lot of details we don't know about what that looks"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1188.788,"endTime":1191.367,"body":"like and feels like, and, you know, 'cause Scripture,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1192.048,"endTime":1195.127,"body":"yep, points to a glorious hope, but it doesn't fill out a lot of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1195.127,"endTime":1196.268,"body":"the details."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1197.008,"endTime":1200.127,"body":"But the short answer is, yes, I do believe that I will be fully"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1200.127,"endTime":1200.647,"body":"healed."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1201.988,"endTime":1205.367,"body":"There are, [clears throat] obviously, there are"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1205.367,"endTime":1206.448,"body":"different views"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1207.208,"endTime":1210.748,"body":"about what it means to say that someone will be healed of their"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1210.748,"endTime":1213.928,"body":"disability in the resurrection or in the eternal"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1213.928,"endTime":1217.048,"body":"state. There's basically two main views that are out there."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1217.048,"endTime":1217.817,"body":"One is, or"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1218.367,"endTime":1220.057,"body":"what might be called the traditional view,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1220.788,"endTime":1225.087,"body":"which is that disability will be completely removed,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1225.087,"endTime":1228.528,"body":"erased, eliminated, or reversed in the resurrection. The idea"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1228.528,"endTime":1233.488,"body":"being there that disability is one,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1234.587,"endTime":1236.847,"body":"I guess, result of"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1237.647,"endTime":1242.028,"body":"sin and the Fall, and therefore, if sin and the Fall are gonna be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1242.587,"endTime":1244.387,"body":"reversed in the eschaton,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1245.067,"endTime":1245.847,"body":"therefore,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1246.728,"endTime":1248.548,"body":"disability will be as well."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1249.788,"endTime":1251.607,"body":"[clears throat] so the idea there is,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1252.288,"endTime":1255.028,"body":"there will be no wheelchairs, no scooters, no nothing like that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1255.028,"endTime":1256.948,"body":"in heaven, [chuckles] right?"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1258.147,"endTime":1260.968,"body":"There's another view, the more recent view, that argues"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1261.607,"endTime":1265.107,"body":"[clears throat] that although disability will be redeemed and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1265.107,"endTime":1269.167,"body":"transformed, there's gonna... You know, there won't be pain or"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1269.167,"endTime":1271.567,"body":"discomfort. Everybody agrees on that."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1272.127,"endTime":1275.587,"body":"Some would argue that persons who had disabilities in this"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1275.587,"endTime":1280.548,"body":"life may still, in some sense, retain sort of a mark or a,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1281.127,"endTime":1282.188,"body":"some kind of mark"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1282.867,"endTime":1286.688,"body":"of the disability that they had in this life. So, for example,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1286.688,"endTime":1289.528,"body":"f- maybe somebody with, who had Down syndrome in this life"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1290.327,"endTime":1293.208,"body":"might still have some of those same distinctive facial"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1293.208,"endTime":1293.968,"body":"features,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1295.028,"endTime":1297.288,"body":"in the eternal state or"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1297.948,"endTime":1298.667,"body":"that kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1299.468,"endTime":1302.147,"body":"So that-- so this view is driven in part by"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1302.768,"endTime":1304.387,"body":"the view that many of the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1304.928,"endTime":1309.067,"body":"conditions that we currently, that we refer to as disability,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1310.048,"endTime":1310.178,"body":"might"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1310.708,"endTime":1314.607,"body":"better be thought of as more like human variations, normal"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1314.607,"endTime":1317.268,"body":"human variations. And it's a... But, but I think it's also"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1317.268,"endTime":1319.988,"body":"especially driven by the desire to avoid the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1320.647,"endTime":1325.067,"body":"stigmatizing people with disabilities, as having just"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1325.067,"endTime":1328.157,"body":"something, a problem that just needs to be fixed"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1328.988,"endTime":1334.347,"body":"in the, in the eschaton. For my part, I, for myself, I tend to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1334.347,"endTime":1337.167,"body":"le-- I probably lean a little more toward the first view, you"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1337.167,"endTime":1341.528,"body":"know, that disability will be fully reversed, eradicated,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1341.528,"endTime":1345.567,"body":"and so forth in the, in the es- in the eternal state. I don't"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1345.567,"endTime":1347.768,"body":"believe that I'll be using crutches or a wheelchair"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1347.768,"endTime":1351.147,"body":"[chuckles] to get around. In fact, I have this really fun"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1351.147,"endTime":1354.696,"body":"fantasy of playing football with Gabriel and the saints."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1354.696,"endTime":1357.367,"body":"[laughing] And, you know, telling T- you know, telling"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1357.367,"endTime":1359.827,"body":"Gabriel to go deep, and, uh-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1359.827,"endTime":1359.897,"body":"I love it"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1359.897,"endTime":1361.548,"body":"... See what happens, see what happens with"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1361.548,"endTime":1362.428,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1363.228,"endTime":1366.468,"body":"But I have, so I have real hope for that I'm gonna be able to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1366.468,"endTime":1370.728,"body":"jump and run and play and be free of pain. So in that sense,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1370.728,"endTime":1373.788,"body":"I do believe I'll be fully healed. I am open to the other"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1373.788,"endTime":1377.988,"body":"view as well, in the sense that if we understand that to mean"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1377.988,"endTime":1381.048,"body":"that there may, although may, there may still be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1381.048,"endTime":1384.327,"body":"something that you can look at and say, \"Yeah, that person had"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1384.327,"endTime":1388.347,"body":"a disability,\" nevertheless, there won't be pain or suffering"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1388.347,"endTime":1390.028,"body":"or discrimination or oppression"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1390.627,"endTime":1393.188,"body":"or any of those kind of things. So in the eternal state, I would"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1393.188,"endTime":1393.587,"body":"argue"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1394.147,"endTime":1397.587,"body":"we're gonna be complete in our joy and our fellowship with God"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1397.587,"endTime":1399.248,"body":"and with one another."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1399.768,"endTime":1402.468,"body":"The disability that we experienced in this life, as I"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1402.468,"endTime":1406.127,"body":"mentioned before, will be part of our testimony to God's"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1406.127,"endTime":1407.087,"body":"gracious activity"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1407.807,"endTime":1411.208,"body":"in our lives, and, but I-- and I do believe there will be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1411.748,"endTime":1413.867,"body":"both a continuity and a discontinuity"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1414.508,"endTime":1415.067,"body":"between"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1415.607,"endTime":1417.627,"body":"our life in, between this life"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1418.268,"endTime":1422.048,"body":"and what our, what we're like in that, in the eternal state."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1422.048,"endTime":1423.347,"body":"Just as Jesus"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1424.087,"endTime":1427.607,"body":"still bore the marks of his crucifixion,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1428.167,"endTime":1432.667,"body":"and yet his, h- and yet he had a glorified body, and,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1433.968,"endTime":1437.867,"body":"I think there's gonna be some kind of parallel there"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1437.867,"endTime":1438.087,"body":"with"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1438.788,"endTime":1441.067,"body":"for us in the eternal state."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1441.067,"endTime":1442.607,"body":"That's really helpful to lay out those two"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1442.607,"endTime":1447.107,"body":"views. I'm with you, that I lean more towards the first view, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1447.107,"endTime":1451.008,"body":"the second view you kind of hinted at at the end, you know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1451.008,"endTime":1455.5,"body":"Jesus maintained his wounds-... And I guess, you know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1455.5,"endTime":1458.819,"body":"obviously, this is part of the debate, but the two obvious"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1458.819,"endTime":1461.5,"body":"pushbacks to that would be, there's a difference between a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1461.5,"endTime":1463.859,"body":"wound and a disability."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1463.859,"endTime":1463.878,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1463.878,"endTime":1467.789,"body":"And Jesus is clearly a unique case-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1467.789,"endTime":1467.789,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1467.789,"endTime":1469.299,"body":"... That I'm always [chuckles] hesitant to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1469.299,"endTime":1471.509,"body":"say, \"Well, that happened with Jesus,\"-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1471.509,"endTime":1471.509,"body":"[chuckles] Therefore-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1471.509,"endTime":1473.299,"body":"... \"so that'll happen with me.\""},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1473.299,"endTime":1473.319,"body":"Right, exactly."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1473.319,"endTime":1476.059,"body":"Are there other biblical passages that people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1476.059,"endTime":1480.138,"body":"point to, or is it more just kinda theologizing based on our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1480.138,"endTime":1483.539,"body":"understanding of God and His character?"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1485.159,"endTime":1486.96,"body":"There may be other passages that I'm not"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1486.96,"endTime":1489.099,"body":"remem- thinking of at the moment. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1489.099,"endTime":1489.49,"body":"Sure. Sure."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1490.24,"endTime":1492.079,"body":"But I think it's, in general, just,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1493.259,"endTime":1496.878,"body":"thinking through, you know, given what we know about God and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1496.878,"endTime":1499.359,"body":"the way He has created human beings,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1500.0,"endTime":1502.96,"body":"what might some of the implications of that be for the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1502.96,"endTime":1505.619,"body":"eternal state? And then also, I'd add that I think what"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1505.619,"endTime":1508.898,"body":"drives, what drives that view, though, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1508.898,"endTime":1510.559,"body":"largely the concern that we not"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1511.599,"endTime":1515.148,"body":"draw unwarranted conclusions about disability"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1515.878,"endTime":1518.378,"body":"based on what we think... Based on simply thinking that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1518.378,"endTime":1520.009,"body":"disability is nothing but"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1520.839,"endTime":1524.21,"body":"a problem to be fixed, [chuckles] in the eternal state."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1525.138,"endTime":1525.74,"body":"So I have a-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1525.74,"endTime":1527.819,"body":"I mean, so it has, so it has to do with how we"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1527.819,"endTime":1530.439,"body":"think. I think what's really driving that is a concern for"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1530.96,"endTime":1533.439,"body":"how do we think about disability, and then what are"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1533.439,"endTime":1534.839,"body":"the implications of that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1535.579,"endTime":1537.919,"body":"for how we treat people with disabilities in the life of the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1537.919,"endTime":1541.699,"body":"church, and in the c- and in our communities, and in our culture?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1542.779,"endTime":1545.74,"body":"Which is a wonderful motivation, to be sure"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1545.74,"endTime":1547.48,"body":"that we're not [chuckles] just saying, \"Well, this is the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1547.48,"endTime":1550.5,"body":"result of the fall,\" and not treating somebody with the full"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1550.5,"endTime":1555.259,"body":"dignity and value they have, despite any disability. We don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1555.259,"endTime":1559.339,"body":"always do that well, so I love that that drives it. I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1559.339,"endTime":1562.299,"body":"wondering, I haven't read any of this literature at all, so you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1562.299,"endTime":1565.939,"body":"can tell me if this is just crazy. But I do hear, kind of in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1565.939,"endTime":1568.259,"body":"discussions about critical theory,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1568.779,"endTime":1573.579,"body":"I hear people defining themselves by their disability,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1573.579,"endTime":1578.0,"body":"like it's essential to who they are, and it's kind of bigoted"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1578.0,"endTime":1582.269,"body":"and mistaken for somebody to try to change their core identity."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1582.859,"endTime":1586.859,"body":"And some of that is driven by kind of a rejection of a norm,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1586.859,"endTime":1590.099,"body":"so to speak. Does that have anything to do with these"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1590.099,"endTime":1593.74,"body":"conversations, or am I just off base in bringing that into the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1593.74,"endTime":1596.138,"body":"theological discourse about disability?"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1596.138,"endTime":1597.44,"body":"[clears throat]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1598.319,"endTime":1602.339,"body":"well, I think that there is... I think that is present in some"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1602.339,"endTime":1604.159,"body":"of, some of the conversations."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1605.138,"endTime":1606.339,"body":"Certainly, that's, that's,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1608.099,"endTime":1609.638,"body":"certainly that is in the background-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1610.169,"endTime":1613.559,"body":"... Of these conversations. However, there is"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1613.559,"endTime":1615.24,"body":"quite a range in the literature-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1616.039,"endTime":1619.519,"body":"... And the theol- the theologians, that I've read and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1619.519,"endTime":1621.019,"body":"interacted with,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1622.24,"endTime":1625.898,"body":"tend to be very serious about taking seriously the realities"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1625.898,"endTime":1627.339,"body":"of disability,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1627.898,"endTime":1631.219,"body":"and also as well as the realities of human nature."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1631.219,"endTime":1634.099,"body":"You know, that there is a norm to human nature. I think the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1634.099,"endTime":1637.779,"body":"concern is more, as I said, that we not"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1638.46,"endTime":1640.898,"body":"draw unwarranted conclusions. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1641.819,"endTime":1644.138,"body":"you know, the... So the concern really is to be careful about"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1644.138,"endTime":1647.659,"body":"how we think about disability, both in this life and the next,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1647.659,"endTime":1648.48,"body":"so that we're not"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1649.519,"endTime":1651.519,"body":"missing out on it, these things like"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1652.559,"endTime":1656.159,"body":"our important obligations toward people with"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1656.159,"endTime":1657.46,"body":"disabilities,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1658.319,"endTime":1661.619,"body":"to integrate a, people with disability into the life of the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1661.619,"endTime":1666.019,"body":"church, to seek not only inclusion, but also belonging,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1666.019,"endTime":1667.638,"body":"those kinds of things. And that, and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1668.339,"endTime":1670.98,"body":"that some of the negative ways that people with disabilities"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1670.98,"endTime":1671.878,"body":"have been treated"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1672.659,"endTime":1676.279,"body":"have been often driven by some of these,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1676.898,"endTime":1680.779,"body":"ideas about disability that it's merely a problem or sort of a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1680.779,"endTime":1684.359,"body":"parenthesis, [chuckles] if you will, in God's... That it"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1684.359,"endTime":1687.759,"body":"doesn't really, that there's no place. I think the concern is to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1687.759,"endTime":1690.74,"body":"push back against the idea that there's no place for disability"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1690.74,"endTime":1695.279,"body":"in God's overall plan of redemption, and- ... And, you"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1695.279,"endTime":1697.299,"body":"know, that He, that He's working,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1698.119,"endTime":1699.419,"body":"if that makes sense, so."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1699.419,"endTime":1700.049,"body":"It does, yeah."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1700.049,"endTime":1700.628,"body":"So yeah, so it's-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1700.628,"endTime":1703.44,"body":"What a painful thing for somebody to feel like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1703.44,"endTime":1704.539,"body":"they don't have a place- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1704.539,"endTime":1704.619,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1704.619,"endTime":1706.279,"body":"... In God's redemption."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1706.279,"endTime":1706.339,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1706.339,"endTime":1708.94,"body":"Just to hear you say that, like pains"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1708.94,"endTime":1709.48,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1709.48,"endTime":1710.608,"body":"Yeah, that's really helpful."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1710.608,"endTime":1713.44,"body":"Right. Yeah. And the reality is, historically,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1713.44,"endTime":1715.839,"body":"it's often been the case that people with disability have sort"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1715.839,"endTime":1716.759,"body":"of been written off."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1717.398,"endTime":1720.638,"body":"Especially, this is especially the case where there's been"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1720.638,"endTime":1724.079,"body":"intellectual and cognitive disability in the mix."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1725.299,"endTime":1726.98,"body":"That's been very common. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1726.98,"endTime":1729.029,"body":"Chris, one of, one of the ways I think you-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1729.029,"endTime":1729.419,"body":"[clears throat]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1729.419,"endTime":1731.159,"body":"... You combat that danger"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1731.839,"endTime":1732.419,"body":"pretty well"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1733.019,"endTime":1735.96,"body":"is that you suggest in some of your, some of the stuff you've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1735.96,"endTime":1739.919,"body":"written, that disability can actually be viewed as a calling."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1739.919,"endTime":1742.48,"body":"Can you, can you explain a little bit more what you mean by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1742.48,"endTime":1745.96,"body":"that? 'Cause that I don't think is, [clears throat] you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1745.96,"endTime":1748.25,"body":"know, sort of fits into some of the traditional ways that we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1748.25,"endTime":1750.799,"body":"understand the notion of calling."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1750.799,"endTime":1752.378,"body":"Right. Yeah, and it can be very"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1752.378,"endTime":1753.539,"body":"counterintuitive."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1754.44,"endTime":1756.839,"body":"And first of all, before I get into that, just to give credit"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1756.839,"endTime":1759.799,"body":"where credit is due, is due, a couple ideas that I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1759.799,"endTime":1763.199,"body":"mention, I draw from a philosopher by the name of Rick"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1763.199,"endTime":1765.94,"body":"Langer, who's written an excellent article on this issue."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1765.94,"endTime":1767.23,"body":"We know that guy around here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1767.23,"endTime":1767.919,"body":"Yeah, we've had- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1767.919,"endTime":1771.199,"body":"Yeah. Ex- he's, you know, he's, he- you might,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1771.199,"endTime":1774.039,"body":"you might have seen him around. [chuckles] Yeah. So yeah, he is"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1774.039,"endTime":1774.839,"body":"at Biola."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1775.98,"endTime":1778.719,"body":"So yeah, Rick Langer has written a wonderful article on this"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1778.719,"endTime":1782.099,"body":"issue that he actually published with, when I worked with Johnny"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1782.099,"endTime":1785.339,"body":"and Brent, he, published this paper as part of a curriculum"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1785.339,"endTime":1787.699,"body":"that we developed. So just giving credit where credit is"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1787.699,"endTime":1788.659,"body":"due."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1789.5,"endTime":1791.388,"body":"A couple things that Rick mentioned, and that is that,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1792.159,"endTime":1795.079,"body":"if we think about the nature of callings now, before we get to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1795.079,"endTime":1796.589,"body":"the issue of disability, let's think about"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1797.679,"endTime":1799.359,"body":"what are callings? What are they?"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1800.519,"endTime":1804.539,"body":"And he points out that callings come to us unbidden. That is to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1804.539,"endTime":1809.96,"body":"say, that God calls us, we respond to His callings. And"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1809.96,"endTime":1813.819,"body":"that, as you mentioned, Scott, is really contrary to our"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1813.819,"endTime":1816.099,"body":"contemporary understandings of calling, that's something that"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1816.099,"endTime":1820.159,"body":"we find or that we seek after, that we, that we're, we're the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1820.159,"endTime":1823.94,"body":"ones who initiate. But really, more often, biblically speaking,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1823.94,"endTime":1826.0,"body":"calling are things that come to people,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1826.539,"endTime":1828.778,"body":"whether they want it or not. [chuckles] ... Whether they're"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1828.778,"endTime":1832.107,"body":"looking for it or not, [chuckles] in many cases."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1832.788,"endTime":1837.127,"body":"Secondly, callings can be, can be difficult, and they can be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1837.127,"endTime":1839.548,"body":"inconvenient, right? I mean, they can, they can often be"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1839.548,"endTime":1843.508,"body":"experienced as impositions. If you think about the life of the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1843.508,"endTime":1846.528,"body":"prophets in the Old Testament, they had callings on them, but"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1846.528,"endTime":1850.788,"body":"they weren't necessarily very pleasant callings. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1850.788,"endTime":1853.887,"body":"but in every case, whatever the nature of the calling, whether"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1853.887,"endTime":1856.627,"body":"it be... However it's experienced,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1857.728,"endTime":1859.167,"body":"the third important thing is that,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1860.428,"endTime":1862.988,"body":"you've heard the- we've all heard the expression"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1862.988,"endTime":1866.347,"body":"where, \"Where God calls, God provides.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1866.347,"endTime":1867.228,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1867.228,"endTime":1872.067,"body":"So God, whatever God calls us to, He provides us"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1872.067,"endTime":1873.208,"body":"with the way to"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1874.028,"endTime":1876.688,"body":"fulfill that calling. He provides, He calls us with what"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1876.688,"endTime":1880.468,"body":"is needed to live out that calling. [chuckles] And so now"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1880.468,"endTime":1884.667,"body":"moving... So now, when we get to the issue of disability, we can"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1884.667,"endTime":1887.948,"body":"start to think, it- that gives us a framework to start to think"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1887.948,"endTime":1888.887,"body":"about disabilities"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1889.468,"endTime":1893.228,"body":"as sort of the site or the locus of God's gracious activity in"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1893.228,"endTime":1894.728,"body":"our lives."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1895.288,"endTime":1898.548,"body":"And [clears throat] as I've, as I've mentioned, [clears throat]"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1898.548,"endTime":1900.518,"body":"excuse me, as I've mentioned several times,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1902.748,"endTime":1905.768,"body":"a way... That disability has now become a way in which God can"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1905.768,"endTime":1909.107,"body":"bring glory to Himself in and through us."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1910.548,"endTime":1914.288,"body":"So we're all called to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, as"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1914.288,"endTime":1916.607,"body":"the, familiar phrase from the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1917.268,"endTime":1921.107,"body":"Westminster Shorter Catechism, right? So, so I would argue and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1921.107,"endTime":1922.998,"body":"suggest that life with disability"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1923.768,"endTime":1927.048,"body":"can be one way in which we do that, one way in which we"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1927.048,"endTime":1930.208,"body":"glorify God. So again, just to reiterate-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1930.208,"endTime":1931.208,"body":"Yeah, that's helpful"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1931.208,"endTime":1932.288,"body":"... As I've mentioned several times, the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1932.288,"endTime":1934.968,"body":"point is not to sugarcoat the realities of living with a"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1934.968,"endTime":1936.208,"body":"disability."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1938.028,"endTime":1941.048,"body":"But the point rather, that living with a disability and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1941.048,"endTime":1942.347,"body":"fulfilling God's calling"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1943.248,"endTime":1946.367,"body":"on our lives are not c- are not necessarily contradictory. They"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1946.367,"endTime":1949.728,"body":"can, in fact, be one and the same thing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1950.567,"endTime":1953.248,"body":"Chris, one... That's really helpful. Yeah. One, one"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1953.248,"endTime":1954.468,"body":"final question for you."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1954.468,"endTime":1954.607,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1954.607,"endTime":1955.847,"body":"You mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1956.508,"endTime":1958.886,"body":"I think a really helpful analogy, where you mentioned the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1958.886,"endTime":1961.587,"body":"Japanese practice of fixing broken ceramics"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1962.407,"endTime":1965.768,"body":"to be, to be very helpful in thinking about-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1965.768,"endTime":1966.288,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1966.288,"endTime":1967.728,"body":"... Disability."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1967.728,"endTime":1967.928,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1967.928,"endTime":1969.948,"body":"Spell out what you mean by that analogy."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1969.948,"endTime":1970.167,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1970.928,"endTime":1973.208,"body":"in the Japanese practice of Kintsugi,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1973.948,"endTime":1977.647,"body":"So this is the practice is called Kintsugi, and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1977.647,"endTime":1978.708,"body":"in that practice,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1980.127,"endTime":1982.988,"body":"what happens is that broken pieces of ceramic"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1983.627,"endTime":1984.387,"body":"are essentially,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1986.347,"endTime":1989.067,"body":"glued back together or put back together by using a gold"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1989.067,"endTime":1994.107,"body":"filling. And so what happens is the restored product, the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1994.107,"endTime":1997.728,"body":"restored piece of ceramic, ends up reflecting both the"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":1997.728,"endTime":1999.948,"body":"characteristics of the original and"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2000.528,"endTime":2004.208,"body":"the artistry of the, of the Kintsugi master, the one who did"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2004.208,"endTime":2008.268,"body":"the art of the putting the pieces back together. So"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2008.988,"endTime":2013.708,"body":"what I love about that analogy is that similarly, when God"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2013.708,"endTime":2016.748,"body":"graciously works in and through our lives,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2017.357,"endTime":2019.857,"body":"and in, and in particular through the lives of people with"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2019.857,"endTime":2024.528,"body":"disabilities, His power, His strength, His glory, and His"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2024.528,"endTime":2025.147,"body":"majesty"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2026.087,"endTime":2029.887,"body":"shine through the, what might seem like cracks in our lives,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2029.887,"endTime":2031.988,"body":"right? The seemingly broken pieces"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2032.528,"endTime":2034.528,"body":"that He has put together."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2035.147,"endTime":2036.367,"body":"So His handiwork"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2037.188,"endTime":2041.347,"body":"shows up in the cracks of our lives, and what ends up"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2041.347,"endTime":2043.048,"body":"happening is that He receives the glory."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2044.067,"endTime":2045.688,"body":"So when I first read about that,"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2046.448,"endTime":2049.628,"body":"about the Japanese practice of Kintsugi, it just, it occurred"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2049.628,"endTime":2052.847,"body":"to me that that was a really apt analogy or metaphor"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2053.547,"endTime":2056.447,"body":"for what God does in the lives of people with disability, as"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2056.447,"endTime":2059.367,"body":"well as all of us, obviously, who are being... Who"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2059.367,"endTime":2062.847,"body":"have been redeemed or are being redeemed, by Christ. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2062.847,"endTime":2064.987,"body":"Yeah. Thank you, Chris. That's really-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2064.987,"endTime":2065.217,"body":"You're welcome."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2065.217,"endTime":2066.248,"body":"That's sort of, that's sort of a drop,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2066.248,"endTime":2068.088,"body":"drop-the-mic moment to-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2068.088,"endTime":2068.318,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2068.318,"endTime":2070.478,"body":"... To end on. We wanna think a little bit more,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2070.478,"endTime":2074.327,"body":"too, as... And we'll, Sean, we've a- we've talked about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2075.007,"endTime":2077.128,"body":"addressing this further in more detail-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2077.128,"endTime":2077.157,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2077.688,"endTime":2080.188,"body":"... At another time on some of the implications this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2080.188,"endTime":2081.427,"body":"has for our life in the church"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2082.088,"endTime":2082.527,"body":"together."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2082.527,"endTime":2082.657,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2082.657,"endTime":2083.728,"body":"But Chris, all of this-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2083.728,"endTime":2085.387,"body":"All of these are huge topics. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2085.387,"endTime":2087.387,"body":"This is really helpful."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2087.387,"endTime":2087.788,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2087.788,"endTime":2089.188,"body":"So appreciate, so appreciate you sharing your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2089.188,"endTime":2091.748,"body":"story, your vulnerability, and say-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2091.748,"endTime":2092.047,"body":"You're prayer."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2092.047,"endTime":2095.268,"body":"Just sharing a lot about how God's worked, in your,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2095.268,"endTime":2099.068,"body":"in your life to show His grace and to further sanctify you. So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2099.068,"endTime":2102.467,"body":"this has been super helpful, and we will put a link to a couple"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2102.467,"endTime":2104.097,"body":"of your publications that-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2104.097,"endTime":2104.097,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2104.097,"endTime":2105.608,"body":"... I think the ones that you did from the Henry"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2105.608,"endTime":2106.847,"body":"Center at Trinity."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2106.847,"endTime":2107.478,"body":"Uh-huh. Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2107.478,"endTime":2108.568,"body":"We'll, we'll, we'll put a link to those so our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2108.568,"endTime":2111.768,"body":"listeners can have a little more access to some of your work."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2111.768,"endTime":2112.248,"body":"Appreciate that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2112.248,"endTime":2112.487,"body":"So-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2112.487,"endTime":2112.827,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2112.827,"endTime":2114.668,"body":"... Much appreciated. Great to have you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2114.668,"endTime":2116.137,"body":"with us. Great to, great to re-"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2116.137,"endTime":2116.137,"body":"Thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2116.137,"endTime":2118.387,"body":"... Great, great to reconnect with you."},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2118.387,"endTime":2119.967,"body":"Thank you so much. It was great to be with"},{"speaker":"Chris Ralston","startTime":2119.967,"endTime":2120.967,"body":"you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2120.967,"endTime":2122.807,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast, Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2122.807,"endTime":2125.907,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2125.907,"endTime":2128.788,"body":"you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2128.788,"endTime":2132.268,"body":"programs in Southern California and online in spiritual"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2132.268,"endTime":2135.688,"body":"formation, marriage and family therapy, apologetics,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2135.688,"endTime":2139.387,"body":"philosophy, Old Testament, New Testament, pastoral ministry,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2139.387,"endTime":2141.447,"body":"theology. Sean, I don't think I'm missing any."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2141.447,"endTime":2142.057,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2143.097,"endTime":2145.168,"body":"That's most of them. Visit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2145.168,"endTime":2147.208,"body":"biola.edu/talbot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2147.748,"endTime":2150.847,"body":"in order to learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2150.847,"endTime":2154.327,"body":"questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2154.327,"endTime":2156.708,"body":"or guests you'd like us to consider, email us at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2156.708,"endTime":2160.068,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2160.068,"endTime":2163.807,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2163.807,"endTime":2166.547,"body":"with our friend, Dr. Chris Ralston, give us a rating on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2166.547,"endTime":2169.407,"body":"your podcast app, and please share it with a friend. And join"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2169.407,"endTime":2173.088,"body":"us Friday for our weekly cultural update. Thanks so much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2173.088,"endTime":2175.367,"body":"for listening, and in the meantime, remember, think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2175.367,"endTime":2186.047,"body":"biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}