{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.1,"endTime":4.94,"body":"[upbeat music] Is empathy a sin? What's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4.94,"endTime":8.74,"body":"bigger concern today- a lack of empathy in our culture and a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":8.74,"endTime":14.039,"body":"lack of empathy among Christians towards outsiders, or empathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.039,"endTime":18.379,"body":"being weaponized against Christians to adopt progressive"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":18.379,"endTime":21.679,"body":"views? Let's just say this has been a huge topic of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":21.679,"endTime":25.899,"body":"conversation. We welcome back Tim Muehlhoff, Biola professor,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":25.899,"endTime":28.62,"body":"co-author of mine. We wrote a book together called End the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.62,"endTime":29.71,"body":"Stalemate."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":29.71,"endTime":29.8,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":29.8,"endTime":32.38,"body":"Last year, it was either number one or two of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":32.38,"endTime":35.759,"body":"all the conversations we had, Tim, on our whole podcast-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":35.759,"endTime":36.128,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":36.128,"endTime":38.659,"body":"... Our friendly debate about pronouns."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":38.659,"endTime":39.299,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":39.299,"endTime":41.219,"body":"So we've been trying to have a follow-up"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":41.219,"endTime":44.399,"body":"discussion/friendly debate on a topic."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":44.399,"endTime":44.409,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":44.409,"endTime":47.24,"body":"You suggested this one, and in many ways, this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":47.24,"endTime":51.56,"body":"topic kind of overlaps with the topic of pronouns. What does"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":51.56,"endTime":53.979,"body":"empathy and compassion look like?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":53.979,"endTime":54.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":54.439,"endTime":56.82,"body":"So thanks for coming back, but let's start"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":56.82,"endTime":60.719,"body":"with I'm really curious why this topic interested you to have a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":60.719,"endTime":62.13,"body":"deep-dive conversation about it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":62.13,"endTime":64.06,"body":"Well, first, thanks for having me back. I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":64.06,"endTime":65.939,"body":"love our conversations. We've known each other-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":65.939,"endTime":65.969,"body":"Me too"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":65.969,"endTime":69.0,"body":"... For an insane amount of time, and it's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":69.0,"endTime":71.59,"body":"really fun to be able to kick these around in a safe place,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":71.59,"endTime":72.04,"body":"and-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":72.7,"endTime":74.859,"body":"... I think we agree on a ton of things. There might be things we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":74.859,"endTime":79.0,"body":"see a little bit differently. So empathy, my master's thesis-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":79.0,"endTime":79.26,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":79.26,"endTime":82.709,"body":"... At UNC Chapel Hill, not Duke, let's be"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":82.709,"endTime":83.359,"body":"very clear-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":83.359,"endTime":83.78,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":83.78,"endTime":84.98,"body":"... UNC Chapel Hill."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":86.549,"endTime":88.859,"body":"A person wrote a letter to the Daily Tar Heel"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":88.859,"endTime":91.079,"body":"'cause they had- ... National Coming Out Week, that it was"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":91.079,"endTime":93.04,"body":"observed every week-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":93.04,"endTime":93.049,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":93.049,"endTime":94.799,"body":"... A, I mean, every year at UNC Chapel"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":94.799,"endTime":97.939,"body":"Hill. Christian got hacked off, wrote a letter to the Day- Daily"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":97.939,"endTime":101.84,"body":"Tar Heel calling homosexuality a sin, really going after it. It"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":101.84,"endTime":104.42,"body":"raised a huge ruckus. The chancellor had to get involved."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":104.42,"endTime":106.06,"body":"I mean, it got regional, national attention."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":106.06,"endTime":107.26,"body":"When was this, by the way?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":107.26,"endTime":108.04,"body":"This is probably-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":108.04,"endTime":108.859,"body":"Early 2000s or... ?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":108.859,"endTime":110.78,"body":"Oh, my gosh, thank you for saying it that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":110.78,"endTime":112.879,"body":"way. It was probably a little bit earlier than that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":112.879,"endTime":112.9,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":112.9,"endTime":115.06,"body":"No, no, early 2000s. You're right. Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":115.06,"endTime":115.14,"body":"There you go."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":115.14,"endTime":118.84,"body":"No, thank you. So my, beloved academic"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":118.84,"endTime":121.14,"body":"mentor came up to me and said, \"You're a Christian. Let's do"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":121.14,"endTime":123.769,"body":"something about this,\" 'cause the gay community responded."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":123.769,"endTime":126.98,"body":"There was a lot of vitriol. So I took three members,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":126.98,"endTime":130.319,"body":"self-identified from the gay community, three members of a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":130.319,"endTime":133.36,"body":"very conservative group on campus, Christian group."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":133.36,"endTime":133.5,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":133.5,"endTime":135.84,"body":"And I said, \"Give me seven weeks to have the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":135.84,"endTime":138.439,"body":"conversation, but if we have it right now, we already know"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":138.439,"endTime":141.18,"body":"what's gonna happen. It's gonna devolve into ar- yelling and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":141.18,"endTime":144.259,"body":"name-calling.\" So we basically took six weeks of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":144.259,"endTime":148.28,"body":"preparation. All of it was rooted in empathy. H- can we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":148.28,"endTime":151.719,"body":"empathize with each other even though we really do disagree"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":151.719,"endTime":154.02,"body":"about the nature of homosexuality or whatever the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":154.02,"endTime":159.639,"body":"issue is? So I saw firsthand the power empathy has to bring down"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":159.639,"endTime":163.08,"body":"walls, open conversation. Now, obviously, nobody changed their"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":163.08,"endTime":167.219,"body":"mind, per se. The Christians didn't give in, and, the members"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":167.219,"endTime":170.62,"body":"of the gay community didn't change their perspective, but it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":170.62,"endTime":172.219,"body":"changed the tone of the conversation."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":172.84,"endTime":175.379,"body":"So that really encouraged me, but now I'm"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":175.379,"endTime":179.719,"body":"seeing trends that discourage me. Empathy's taken a real hit"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":180.28,"endTime":181.36,"body":"in the last,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":182.219,"endTime":187.3,"body":"20, 30 years. I mean, consider very quickly, The Atlantic, 2023"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":187.3,"endTime":190.28,"body":"just did a whole issue on whatever happened to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":190.28,"endTime":195.58,"body":"empathy. The 2025 Compassion Report says that 61% of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":195.58,"endTime":200.819,"body":"Americans feel that empathy is lacking. The United Way 2023"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":200.819,"endTime":204.479,"body":"study said that empathy, there's burnout, and that 14% of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":204.479,"endTime":207.699,"body":"Americans say, \"I'm less empathetic,\" after the pandemic."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":207.699,"endTime":208.819,"body":"Scientific American"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":209.36,"endTime":214.159,"body":"said... In 2020 said, \"US has an empathy deficit,\" and then a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":214.159,"endTime":218.759,"body":"fascinating book called Empathy- A History, a Yale scholar said"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":218.759,"endTime":224.379,"body":"this. She studies empathy, that, how it's originated, defined."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":224.379,"endTime":228.849,"body":"This is what she says- \"I've never seen empathy vilified"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":229.379,"endTime":234.28,"body":"in the way that it has been in these current years. To me, this"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":234.28,"endTime":237.599,"body":"disparagement marks a step in the destruction of our"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":237.599,"endTime":241.24,"body":"multicultural democracy and provides a path for the verbal"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":241.24,"endTime":245.219,"body":"dehumanization of others.\" And I think I've seen that- ..."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":245.219,"endTime":248.3,"body":"I'm also the co-director of Biola's Winsome Conviction"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":248.3,"endTime":251.78,"body":"Project. I've seen Christians and non-Christians really go"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":251.78,"endTime":254.879,"body":"after each other in dehumanizing ways on social media. So I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":254.879,"endTime":259.139,"body":"think, I think we're seeing a lack of empathy today, both"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":259.139,"endTime":261.72,"body":"inside the church and outside the church. That really concerns"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":261.72,"endTime":261.98,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":261.98,"endTime":264.36,"body":"Okay, so some might say, \"All right, Tim, go"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":264.36,"endTime":267.86,"body":"back to your example, early 2000s. No one changed their"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":267.86,"endTime":268.36,"body":"minds.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":268.36,"endTime":268.689,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":268.689,"endTime":271.06,"body":"\"No one came to Jesus. Nobody saw like-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":271.06,"endTime":271.1,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":271.1,"endTime":273.439,"body":"... Oh, maybe marriage is between a man and a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":273.439,"endTime":278.399,"body":"woman. Then what's the point? Why engage in these-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":278.399,"endTime":278.41,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":278.41,"endTime":281.839,"body":"... Seven weeks of conversation if no one's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":281.839,"endTime":284.43,"body":"gonna change their point?\" \"No one's gonna come to Jesus,\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":285.139,"endTime":288.68,"body":"I imagine some voice would say, \"Isn't this sinful behavior"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":288.68,"endTime":290.73,"body":"we should call out?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":291.439,"endTime":292.92,"body":"What would be your response to that?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":292.92,"endTime":294.36,"body":"Well, one, it got me a master's."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":294.98,"endTime":295.589,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":295.589,"endTime":296.779,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":296.779,"endTime":297.779,"body":"Can we just check that?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":297.779,"endTime":299.199,"body":"Oh, that was a part of your thesis work."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":299.199,"endTime":300.75,"body":"Oh, that was my thesis, Sean."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":300.75,"endTime":300.759,"body":"Okay. Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":300.759,"endTime":302.62,"body":"That was the whole thing I analyzed. So let"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":302.62,"endTime":304.319,"body":"me just say this on two levels."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":305.12,"endTime":308.42,"body":"We are not called to just communicate content. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":308.42,"endTime":311.839,"body":"Paul's very clear. \"I want you to speak truth,\" content. \"I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":311.839,"endTime":314.5,"body":"want you to do it in love.\" That's the relational level of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":314.5,"endTime":318.139,"body":"communication. The, the most famous apologetic verse in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":318.139,"endTime":321.42,"body":"entire New Testament, Peter says, \"Be ready to give a reason"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":321.42,"endTime":325.019,"body":"for the hope that is in you with all gentleness and reverence,\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":325.019,"endTime":327.579,"body":"and I think what we're doing is we're shaping the communication"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":327.579,"endTime":331.56,"body":"climate. So d- when that, when week seven came, Sean, we had"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":331.56,"endTime":334.829,"body":"dinner at our house. Noreen made dinner- ... Laughed, and said,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":334.829,"endTime":337.639,"body":"\"Protect the china.\" [laughing] It was like... 'cause now we're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":337.639,"endTime":340.019,"body":"gonna talk about our differences, and they full-out"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":340.019,"endTime":343.66,"body":"did it for four hours. I mean, there was push and pull. The"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":343.66,"endTime":346.779,"body":"Christians were not backing off of their perspective, but later,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":346.779,"endTime":350.379,"body":"in an al- analyzing it based on journals everybody kept-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":350.899,"endTime":354.56,"body":"... Everybody felt like the tone of the conversation had shifted,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":354.56,"endTime":358.3,"body":"that I was able to more consider your perspective, whereas before"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":358.3,"endTime":361.639,"body":"I had walls up. I think empathy can bring the walls down,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":362.16,"endTime":366.12,"body":"and so now you're actually listening to my concerns about"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":366.12,"endTime":367.74,"body":"your sexuality,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":368.5,"endTime":373.144,"body":"your morality. So we're creating a communication environment-..."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":373.144,"endTime":377.122,"body":"Where people can actually hear our conversations. And so, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":377.122,"endTime":380.144,"body":"we are standing up for truth, but we're doing it in a way that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":380.144,"endTime":381.483,"body":"people can receive it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":381.483,"endTime":383.822,"body":"Okay, so it's effective communication, you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":383.822,"endTime":387.202,"body":"would argue, to be in conversation with somebody, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":387.202,"endTime":390.603,"body":"potentially to love a neighbor by understanding their views and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":390.603,"endTime":392.423,"body":"engaging them where they're at."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":392.423,"endTime":393.923,"body":"And let me be more provocative."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":393.923,"endTime":394.442,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":394.442,"endTime":396.403,"body":"Second great commandment, I do not think you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":396.403,"endTime":400.442,"body":"can do it without two things- perspective-taking and empathy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":400.442,"endTime":401.163,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":401.163,"endTime":401.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":401.244,"endTime":402.303,"body":"All right, and-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":402.303,"endTime":405.221,"body":"Can, b- can I maybe define empathy?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":405.221,"endTime":407.182,"body":"So let me ask you this. Yes, but let me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":407.182,"endTime":407.363,"body":"ask-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":407.363,"endTime":407.423,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":407.423,"endTime":409.072,"body":"... Let me ask this question first."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":409.072,"endTime":409.103,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":409.103,"endTime":411.562,"body":"I wanna know why there's so much discussion about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":411.562,"endTime":415.863,"body":"empathy kind of in the modern world today. Now, in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":415.863,"endTime":418.882,"body":"Christian Church, there's been a book that was written. Rigney"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":418.882,"endTime":421.863,"body":"wrote a provocative book called The Sin of Empathy. Created a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":421.863,"endTime":422.744,"body":"lot of conversation-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":422.744,"endTime":423.303,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":423.303,"endTime":425.163,"body":"... All over podcasts, there's been dialogue"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":425.163,"endTime":430.103,"body":"about this. Ellie Beth Stuckey, Toxic Empathy. So Christians"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":430.103,"endTime":433.524,"body":"have been talking about this, and I think there's some other-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":433.524,"endTime":436.783,"body":"there might be some, like, sociological reasons why this is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":436.783,"endTime":439.543,"body":"so pressing today. I think there's a lot of hurting people."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":439.543,"endTime":439.903,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":439.903,"endTime":440.853,"body":"We've seen depression-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":440.853,"endTime":440.853,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":440.853,"endTime":442.803,"body":"... We've seen anxiety go up, so there's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":442.803,"endTime":446.163,"body":"sense of like, how do we relate to people who are hurting? So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":446.163,"endTime":449.463,"body":"this has taken on a certain element of importance."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":449.463,"endTime":450.062,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":450.062,"endTime":452.223,"body":"I think we also have arguably, like, a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":452.223,"endTime":456.043,"body":"victimhood culture today, where there's kind of a sense of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":456.043,"endTime":459.803,"body":"like... In a way it wasn't in the past, and maybe this is a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":459.803,"endTime":464.682,"body":"part of critical theory, where we almost, like, praise when"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":464.682,"endTime":468.043,"body":"somebody has experienced a kind of victimhood status. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":468.043,"endTime":471.382,"body":"there's so much literature that's written on this, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":471.382,"endTime":474.843,"body":"there's a kind of empathy that leans into and just says, \"I've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":474.843,"endTime":477.942,"body":"just gotta meet you where you're at and understand.\" That's the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":477.942,"endTime":480.963,"body":"whole goal, and part of the concern of these books is how do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":480.963,"endTime":481.062,"body":"we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":481.603,"endTime":483.803,"body":"meet people who have experienced trauma-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":483.803,"endTime":483.833,"body":"Right, right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":483.833,"endTime":485.483,"body":"... And have been victimized? But there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":485.483,"endTime":489.822,"body":"certainly been a shift in our culture that arguably makes the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":489.822,"endTime":493.942,"body":"case positively about a kind of certain victimhood status that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":493.942,"endTime":497.783,"body":"raises the question of how do you love and care for people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":497.783,"endTime":501.913,"body":"when there's attention being paid to victimization? Hence,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":501.913,"endTime":505.322,"body":"empathy has increased in discussion about... I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":505.322,"endTime":506.783,"body":"that's at least a piece of it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":506.783,"endTime":507.663,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":507.663,"endTime":509.653,"body":"Why do you think there's so much discussion about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":509.653,"endTime":512.423,"body":"this in the modern world, like right now, in the Church or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":512.423,"endTime":513.202,"body":"outside?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":513.202,"endTime":516.104,"body":"Okay, I mean, we talk about this in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":516.104,"endTime":518.543,"body":"our book. Tribalism is for real."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":518.543,"endTime":518.562,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":518.562,"endTime":519.743,"body":"We, we have ample"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":520.482,"endTime":524.364,"body":"evidence that we do- we hang out with our tribes. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":524.364,"endTime":529.144,"body":"affective polarization means when my tribe, when there's no"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":529.144,"endTime":532.222,"body":"counter-perspective given to it, we're all of one political"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":532.222,"endTime":536.604,"body":"persuasion, we all read the Bible exactly the same, we all"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":536.604,"endTime":540.323,"body":"have theological beliefs that align, that's called groupthink."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":540.323,"endTime":541.374,"body":"That's, that's,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":542.823,"endTime":547.104,"body":"us. But when we talk about the other group, when there's no"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":547.104,"endTime":548.553,"body":"other group to speak in, like"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":549.243,"endTime":551.543,"body":"there's no other group to challenge our theological"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":551.543,"endTime":552.293,"body":"beliefs, our-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":552.293,"endTime":552.342,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":552.342,"endTime":554.243,"body":"... Our political views, affective"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":554.243,"endTime":558.303,"body":"polarization is I actually paint a much harsher picture of your"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":558.303,"endTime":561.783,"body":"group than what you really are. And so I think Americans"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":561.783,"endTime":565.604,"body":"today... Remember that we mentioned this study that 98% of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":565.604,"endTime":567.423,"body":"Americans feel that incivility"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":568.024,"endTime":569.783,"body":"is a threat to the Republic,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":570.482,"endTime":573.743,"body":"right? So I think today people are saying, \"Okay, we gotta get"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":573.743,"endTime":577.903,"body":"out of this tribalism. We gotta start talking to each other in a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":577.903,"endTime":581.423,"body":"way that's civil, kind, compassionate,\" and I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":581.423,"endTime":586.764,"body":"empathy is being seen as a way to open the door. So you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":586.764,"endTime":589.482,"body":"mentioned meet a person where they're at. Well, you just"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":589.482,"endTime":591.722,"body":"described marital communication 101."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":591.722,"endTime":591.864,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":591.864,"endTime":594.644,"body":"You just described parental communication"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":594.644,"endTime":598.803,"body":"101. As a communication professor, it's really good to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":598.803,"endTime":602.543,"body":"meet a person where they're at and engage in empathy,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":603.264,"endTime":606.943,"body":"as you understand everything that has led to that person's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":606.943,"endTime":611.144,"body":"pain, struggles, hurts, hopes, fears. Uh- ... I think empathy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":611.823,"endTime":613.743,"body":"is a way to do that. And so"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":614.303,"endTime":617.364,"body":"to have Christians now be calling it on the carpet"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":617.884,"endTime":622.464,"body":"adds to what that Yale scholar Susan Lazoni says, is empathy's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":622.464,"endTime":628.214,"body":"being really, denigrated today in ways that I do not... I don't"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":628.214,"endTime":629.263,"body":"think is helpful."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":629.263,"endTime":630.923,"body":"Okay, so we'll come back to that, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":630.923,"endTime":633.533,"body":"empathy or a misuse of empathy-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":633.533,"endTime":633.714,"body":"Right, right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":633.714,"endTime":634.783,"body":"... Is part of where this debate-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":634.783,"endTime":634.793,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":634.793,"endTime":635.263,"body":"... Comes in."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":635.263,"endTime":635.543,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":635.543,"endTime":637.124,"body":"But maybe let's define it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":637.124,"endTime":637.543,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":637.543,"endTime":640.384,"body":"So tell us how you as a communication scholar"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":640.384,"endTime":641.263,"body":"define empathy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":641.263,"endTime":644.303,"body":"So obviously, I'm biased. I'm a communication"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":644.303,"endTime":647.024,"body":"professor. We have a whole discipline. We borrow heavily"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":647.024,"endTime":649.943,"body":"from psychology. So what I'm gonna represent right now, I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":649.943,"endTime":650.094,"body":"think,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":650.644,"endTime":653.403,"body":"if you had one of our psych professors here, you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":653.403,"endTime":655.274,"body":"get some version of this, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":655.274,"endTime":655.303,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":655.303,"endTime":658.203,"body":"I mean, it's all over the map academically, but"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":658.203,"endTime":661.923,"body":"here's empathy as I used it in my master's thesis and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":661.923,"endTime":664.583,"body":"when I speak at marriage conferences, right? It is the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":664.583,"endTime":668.624,"body":"ability to recreate another person's perspective- ... To"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":668.624,"endTime":673.163,"body":"experience the world from their point of view. Like, I wanna see"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":673.163,"endTime":677.703,"body":"how you see the world before I jump in to argue how you should"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":677.703,"endTime":678.513,"body":"see the world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":679.024,"endTime":680.374,"body":"I first wanna understand that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":680.374,"endTime":680.583,"body":"Yeah. Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":680.583,"endTime":683.043,"body":"Now, we say there's three dimensions to it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":683.043,"endTime":686.024,"body":"The first dimension is perspective-taking. I set aside"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":686.024,"endTime":689.344,"body":"my views long enough to step in and see the world through your"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":689.344,"endTime":692.293,"body":"perspective. Second, affective means"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":692.823,"endTime":696.884,"body":"this isn't just a cognitive exercise, right? I can, I can,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":696.884,"endTime":700.663,"body":"verbatim repeat your narrative back to you. No, I actually want"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":700.663,"endTime":705.673,"body":"to experience the narrative. I want to know the pain you feel."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":706.203,"endTime":709.024,"body":"And maybe even my viewpoint, it's causing you a certain kind"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":709.024,"endTime":712.563,"body":"of pain. I want to know what that pain is. And then last, a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":712.563,"endTime":716.982,"body":"genuine concern for the welfare of the other person. Now, what I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":716.982,"endTime":720.183,"body":"think that welfare is is gonna be informed by my worldview, my"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":720.183,"endTime":724.043,"body":"perspective, right? Now, I think we get this definition in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":724.043,"endTime":728.374,"body":"scriptures, right? The writer of Hebrews says this. Fascinating"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":728.374,"endTime":730.403,"body":"that the writer would say, \"I want you to pray for those in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":730.403,"endTime":734.447,"body":"prison.\" Okay, check, done.... No, no, I want you to do it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":734.447,"endTime":737.927,"body":"in a certain way. This is what the writer says- \"Remember those"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":737.927,"endTime":740.128,"body":"in prison as if-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":740.788,"endTime":744.327,"body":"-you were in prison.\" We just checked off the first aspect of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":744.327,"endTime":747.447,"body":"empathy. I'm going to pretend and imagine"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":748.048,"endTime":748.988,"body":"I'm in prison,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":749.587,"endTime":753.607,"body":"and then he goes on, \"Remember also those being mistreated as"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":753.607,"endTime":753.988,"body":"if"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":754.587,"endTime":757.857,"body":"you felt their pain in your own body.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":758.548,"endTime":761.967,"body":"Right? Now we got the affective part. So I don't just sit and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":761.967,"endTime":763.937,"body":"pray for my brothers and sisters,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":764.748,"endTime":769.087,"body":"being persecuted today. I imagine that's me, and what"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":769.087,"endTime":771.447,"body":"would be the emotions I would have if I was dragged away from"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":771.447,"endTime":775.347,"body":"my family? So now we don't just apply that to the church,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":775.347,"endTime":779.028,"body":"we apply that to everybody. We sit down with a person,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":780.067,"endTime":783.967,"body":"thinking about transitioning, and the first step is, \"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":783.967,"endTime":786.988,"body":"tell me what led you to this moment?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":787.687,"endTime":792.008,"body":"What are the hopes and the fears that are driving this decision?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":792.888,"endTime":796.427,"body":"And I wanna feel that.\" if we don't do it, I think we've"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":796.427,"endTime":800.488,"body":"immediately made, the conversation defensive. And the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":800.488,"endTime":801.158,"body":"third part"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":801.687,"endTime":805.508,"body":"is what I think they're rightfully, pointing out, is, \"I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":805.508,"endTime":809.288,"body":"do care for your welfare, and I may have to say some things that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":809.288,"endTime":812.427,"body":"is actually gonna cause you pain now that I realize what does"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":812.427,"endTime":816.107,"body":"cause you pain, but I'm doing it because of a genuine concern for"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":816.107,"endTime":819.607,"body":"your welfare spiritually, socially, politically,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":819.607,"endTime":821.128,"body":"theologically.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":821.128,"endTime":823.148,"body":"Okay, so that passage in Hebrews is very"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":823.148,"endTime":825.827,"body":"interesting. It's talking about those in prison referring to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":825.827,"endTime":826.488,"body":"brothers-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":826.488,"endTime":826.628,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":826.628,"endTime":827.607,"body":"... And sisters in Christ."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":827.607,"endTime":827.857,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":827.857,"endTime":830.748,"body":"Right? Then you jumped and said, \"So we also"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":830.748,"endTime":834.347,"body":"apply this to non-Christians in the wider culture.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":834.347,"endTime":834.687,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":834.687,"endTime":838.148,"body":"Where's the biblical precedent for that in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":838.148,"endTime":838.868,"body":"the same"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":839.607,"endTime":842.168,"body":"way? 'Cause if I'm supposed to pray for those in prison-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":842.168,"endTime":842.288,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":842.288,"endTime":844.488,"body":"... In Hebrews 13, these are my brothers- ..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":844.488,"endTime":848.587,"body":"These are my sisters. I show empathy with them because they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":848.587,"endTime":852.227,"body":"presumably have the same beliefs and worldview that I have, so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":852.227,"endTime":855.368,"body":"I'm entering into their pray- into their pain, praying for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":855.368,"endTime":858.148,"body":"them as if I was there. It's a way of loving them. Their"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":858.148,"endTime":862.847,"body":"concern is when I start doing that with people outside of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":862.847,"endTime":867.707,"body":"faith, that if people can be- empathy can be weaponized"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":867.707,"endTime":871.768,"body":"against us, where we can be led astray from our convictions."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":871.768,"endTime":873.567,"body":"Now, we'll come back to that concern-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":873.567,"endTime":874.048,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":874.048,"endTime":876.488,"body":"... But I'm, is there biblical precedent for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":876.488,"endTime":879.967,"body":"showing empathy to non-Christians in the same way"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":879.967,"endTime":882.388,"body":"as you read Christians in this passage?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":884.687,"endTime":887.508,"body":"Yeah. I would say James, right, he's the first"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":887.508,"endTime":892.707,"body":"out of the gate saying, \"Okay, we're gonna try to, like,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":892.707,"endTime":896.648,"body":"prioritize what Jesus is saying.\" Okay? So he comes out"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":896.648,"endTime":899.616,"body":"and says, \"Uh, this may shock you, but I think true religion"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":899.616,"endTime":902.868,"body":"on the side of God is caring for orphans and widows in distress.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":902.868,"endTime":905.207,"body":"He didn't say Christian orphans and widows."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":905.207,"endTime":905.727,"body":"Agreed."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":905.727,"endTime":907.067,"body":"He, he said, \"Orphans and widows in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":907.067,"endTime":908.528,"body":"distress.\" And now we know that the,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":909.067,"endTime":911.807,"body":"historical context, we understand that women were"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":911.807,"endTime":916.067,"body":"greatly abused, and there was no welfare system for children. So"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":916.067,"endTime":919.927,"body":"he's saying, \"I want you to care for these individuals.\" And so"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":919.927,"endTime":923.687,"body":"I think that would absolutely include, being empathetic"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":923.687,"endTime":924.807,"body":"towards them."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":925.368,"endTime":929.107,"body":"Love your enemies. Give them food. I don't think you're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":929.107,"endTime":930.697,"body":"able to give your enemies to your"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":931.508,"endTime":936.207,"body":"food to your enemies unless you have a certain amount of empathy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":936.207,"endTime":940.388,"body":"towards them, otherwise that is a ridiculous command in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":940.388,"endTime":943.307,"body":"Scripture. Like, I'm not giving food to my enemies. I'm just not"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":943.307,"endTime":943.758,"body":"doing that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":944.488,"endTime":944.528,"body":"Well-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":944.528,"endTime":946.427,"body":"So it's interesting that you kind of put"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":946.427,"endTime":950.427,"body":"it on me. I would counter and say, \"W- where do you... Why do"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":950.427,"endTime":952.908,"body":"you think the writer of Hebrews is just restricting that to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":952.908,"endTime":954.028,"body":"Christians?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":954.028,"endTime":956.168,"body":"Oh, I don't know the answer to that."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":956.168,"endTime":956.307,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":956.307,"endTime":959.207,"body":"I'm just saying there was a jump from, \"Here's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":959.207,"endTime":962.528,"body":"exactly what it says for brothers and sisters in Christ."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":962.528,"endTime":963.488,"body":"Feel their pain-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":963.488,"endTime":963.658,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":963.658,"endTime":964.548,"body":"... As if you were there.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":964.548,"endTime":965.158,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":965.158,"endTime":967.248,"body":"\"Therefore, we should extend it.\" Yes, it says,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":967.248,"endTime":969.788,"body":"\"Feed the poor.\" Yes, it says, \"Love them.\" Yes, it says, \"Care"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":969.788,"endTime":974.087,"body":"for orphans,\" but with the same language that spells it out with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":974.087,"endTime":977.868,"body":"such clarity. I'm not saying that means it's wrong not to do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":977.868,"endTime":977.988,"body":"so."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":977.988,"endTime":978.687,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":978.687,"endTime":980.727,"body":"I just don't know that I see the biblical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":980.727,"endTime":984.307,"body":"precedent in the same way, and maybe there's passages we're not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":984.307,"endTime":987.847,"body":"thinking of, but that seems somewhat of a jump to me, unless"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":987.847,"endTime":988.988,"body":"we can think of one-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":988.988,"endTime":989.336,"body":"See-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":989.336,"endTime":990.788,"body":"... In the same fashion."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":990.788,"endTime":993.268,"body":"Okay, that's fair. But, see, this is where I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":993.268,"endTime":996.008,"body":"think general revelation and special revelation have to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":996.008,"endTime":999.427,"body":"complement each other, right? Paul- I teach persuasion class."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":999.427,"endTime":999.508,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":999.508,"endTime":1002.008,"body":"Paul says, \"Knowing the fear of the Lord,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1002.707,"endTime":1005.107,"body":"seek to persuade men.\" He doesn't necessarily tell you how"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1005.107,"endTime":1005.548,"body":"to do it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1006.268,"endTime":1007.528,"body":"Now, we get an example of him-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1007.528,"endTime":1007.538,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1007.538,"endTime":1008.327,"body":"... On Mars Hill."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1008.327,"endTime":1008.347,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1008.347,"endTime":1010.177,"body":"We, we get him in action-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1010.177,"endTime":1010.177,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1010.177,"endTime":1012.028,"body":"... But it's not that Paul is saying, \"Okay, here"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1012.028,"endTime":1014.488,"body":"are the five steps to persuade people.\" We're, we're gonna have"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1014.488,"endTime":1019.148,"body":"to glean that, right? But we have persuasion theory. Like, he"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1019.148,"endTime":1023.107,"body":"says, \"Love your neighbor,\" but, [lips smack] we can borrow"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1023.107,"endTime":1026.886,"body":"from psychology, we can borrow from communication theory to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1026.886,"endTime":1030.827,"body":"know what entails loving a person. That's his general"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1030.827,"endTime":1033.847,"body":"revelation, and I think we get a robust example"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1034.508,"endTime":1036.768,"body":"of what love looks like a-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1037.567,"endTime":1040.307,"body":"from having empathy, perspective-taking. [lips smack]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1042.347,"endTime":1044.768,"body":"I... Well, we did a whole chapter in our book on"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1044.768,"endTime":1045.508,"body":"perspective-taking."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1045.508,"endTime":1045.998,"body":"We did, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1045.998,"endTime":1046.458,"body":"I think it's everywhere."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1046.458,"endTime":1047.167,"body":"I think there's value in that."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1047.167,"endTime":1049.508,"body":"It's, it's everywhere. It's, it's,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1052.337,"endTime":1056.607,"body":"\"Abraham, I want you to sacrifice your son.\" And, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1056.607,"endTime":1058.627,"body":"the whole purpose of writing that, from a rhetorical"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1058.627,"endTime":1061.807,"body":"perspective, is the reader is supposed to say, \"How can a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1061.807,"endTime":1065.587,"body":"father sacrifice his son? Like, how is that- ... Even possible?\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1065.587,"endTime":1068.928,"body":"Well, Abraham didn't sacrifice his son, but God did."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1069.548,"endTime":1073.107,"body":"So I think a perspective-taking is everywhere throughout the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1073.107,"endTime":1075.647,"body":"Scriptures, where Jesus says, \"Okay, you wanna know what God's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1075.647,"endTime":1078.518,"body":"love like? Imagine you're a woman who lost a coin."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1079.508,"endTime":1082.048,"body":"Imagine, do you tear up the whole house trying to find it? A"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1082.048,"endTime":1084.387,"body":"shepherd loses a sheep. I want you to imagine what that would"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1084.387,"endTime":1086.248,"body":"feel like.\" Right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1086.248,"endTime":1086.407,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1086.407,"endTime":1087.607,"body":"Perspective-taking is the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1087.607,"endTime":1091.867,"body":"undercurrent theme, and empathy, I think, throughout,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1092.907,"endTime":1095.948,"body":"the New Testament, and I would say even the Old Testament."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1095.948,"endTime":1097.837,"body":"So it's there."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1098.488,"endTime":1102.131,"body":"I-... Now, what Ri- what these guys are talking about is they"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1102.131,"endTime":1106.511,"body":"are saying, if my understanding is correct, they would buy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1106.511,"endTime":1109.051,"body":"points one and two. Both, both,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1111.871,"endTime":1112.442,"body":"Rigney. Same, same"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1112.442,"endTime":1112.971,"body":"... And,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1113.611,"endTime":1118.211,"body":"Stuckey would say empathy is perspective taking, and empathy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1118.211,"endTime":1120.912,"body":"is affective. They're saying-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1120.912,"endTime":1122.192,"body":"Agreed."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1122.192,"endTime":1123.731,"body":"They have- they're calling into question"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1123.731,"endTime":1128.741,"body":"number three, saying, \"When I do one and two with toxic empathy,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1128.741,"endTime":1132.751,"body":"I no longer have a genuine concern for you. I simply adopt"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1132.751,"endTime":1137.111,"body":"your concerns.\" Like, I don't bring in how I think you should"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1137.111,"endTime":1140.871,"body":"rise above what you're experiencing. I'm so enmeshed in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1140.871,"endTime":1146.451,"body":"you by doing one and two, that I no longer offer,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1146.991,"endTime":1149.59,"body":"I don't call into question your sexuality because I'm so"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1149.59,"endTime":1152.951,"body":"empathizing with you, connecting with you. I would never want to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1152.951,"endTime":1154.121,"body":"hurt your feelings"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1154.652,"endTime":1157.59,"body":"by bringing in a perspective I know will hurt your feelings,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1157.59,"endTime":1162.071,"body":"and that's what, Rigney calls untethered empathy, and that's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1162.071,"endTime":1164.071,"body":"what she calls toxic empathy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1164.071,"endTime":1165.291,"body":"Okay, so he's, he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1166.031,"endTime":1169.912,"body":"says he's not so concerned with the definition of empathy- ..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1169.912,"endTime":1171.412,"body":"But with its practice."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1171.412,"endTime":1171.801,"body":"Okay, can we-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1171.801,"endTime":1173.751,"body":"And as far as I can tell, he pulls out how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1173.751,"endTime":1177.09,"body":"there's no agreed upon definition, and there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1177.09,"endTime":1178.201,"body":"different ways of approaching it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1178.201,"endTime":1178.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1178.231,"endTime":1179.051,"body":"Like, fair enough-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1179.051,"endTime":1179.131,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1179.131,"endTime":1181.451,"body":"... Insofar as it goes. There's the cognitive"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1181.451,"endTime":1185.221,"body":"understanding it's often defined as, mentally, you talked about."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1185.221,"endTime":1185.271,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1185.271,"endTime":1188.912,"body":"There's the affective, feeling what somebody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1188.912,"endTime":1189.371,"body":"feels."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1189.371,"endTime":1190.061,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1190.061,"endTime":1192.051,"body":"And then finally, empathy may refer not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1192.051,"endTime":1195.271,"body":"to sharing the same emotion as another person, but instead to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1195.271,"endTime":1199.721,"body":"the warm feelings we have for those in distress."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1199.721,"endTime":1200.251,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1200.251,"endTime":1203.891,"body":"Warm feeling for those in distress. His concern"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1203.891,"endTime":1207.891,"body":"seems to be, not just empathy per se, and we'll come back to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1207.891,"endTime":1210.071,"body":"the title, 'cause it says The Sin of Empathy-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1210.071,"endTime":1210.531,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1210.531,"endTime":1213.051,"body":"... But a kind of untethered empathy. So he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1213.051,"endTime":1217.152,"body":"draws this distinction between empathy and between sympathy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1217.152,"endTime":1217.611,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1217.611,"endTime":1219.291,"body":"And it is interesting how he gives some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1219.291,"endTime":1222.011,"body":"biblical passages, how in Hebrews 4-15, we have a high"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1222.011,"endTime":1223.811,"body":"priest who sympathizes with us-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1223.811,"endTime":1224.351,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1224.351,"endTime":1227.391,"body":"... Was shifted to empathy, I think, in the NIV."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1227.391,"endTime":1228.951,"body":"Like, why is there that shift?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1228.951,"endTime":1228.991,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1228.991,"endTime":1230.402,"body":"What does that tell us?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1230.402,"endTime":1230.411,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1230.411,"endTime":1232.652,"body":"That, that's a really interesting point."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1233.172,"endTime":1236.932,"body":"The... What he draws out is he kind of, empathy is to feel with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1236.932,"endTime":1239.851,"body":"another. Here's what he say. He says,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1241.402,"endTime":1244.192,"body":"\"Empathy...\" So I will use sympathy and compassion"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1244.192,"endTime":1245.551,"body":"interchangeably."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1245.551,"endTime":1245.922,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1245.922,"endTime":1250.241,"body":"\"Empathy, on the other hand, means suffering in.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1250.241,"endTime":1250.33,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1250.33,"endTime":1253.571,"body":"Sympathy is suffering with; empathy is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1253.571,"endTime":1255.031,"body":"suffering in."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1255.031,"endTime":1255.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1255.231,"endTime":1258.141,"body":"So the distinction he seems to draw is,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1258.141,"endTime":1262.172,"body":"I can enter into your pain, understand it mentally and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1262.172,"endTime":1266.672,"body":"emotionally, but there's still a distance between us as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1266.672,"endTime":1270.011,"body":"individuals. So it's like somebody in a pit. He would say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1270.011,"endTime":1273.411,"body":"\"You don't jump in the pit with them. You still stay with one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1273.411,"endTime":1278.271,"body":"foot on the ground, so you can then pull the person out of it.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1278.271,"endTime":1281.971,"body":"So he's not concerned that we understand how somebody sees the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1281.971,"endTime":1286.571,"body":"world, how they feel the world, perspective taking. But when we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1286.571,"endTime":1291.311,"body":"empathize so much with somebody that we lose that distance, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1291.311,"endTime":1294.731,"body":"we're unable to actually help them in their pain."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1294.731,"endTime":1296.152,"body":"Yeah. Number three."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1296.152,"endTime":1297.251,"body":"Which is number three."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1297.251,"endTime":1299.311,"body":"Genuine concern for the welfare of the other"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1299.311,"endTime":1304.251,"body":"person. Yeah, and I say to him, \"Amen.\" Yeah, amen. If all I do"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1304.251,"endTime":1307.951,"body":"is one and two, I do perspective taking, and I feel your pain,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1307.951,"endTime":1311.152,"body":"which I think is a really noble thing, one of the questions we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1311.152,"endTime":1315.461,"body":"could ask is empathy a virtue? And I would say- ..."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1315.461,"endTime":1318.871,"body":"Absolutely, it's a virtue. To be an empathetic person is a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1318.871,"endTime":1319.471,"body":"virtuous"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1320.311,"endTime":1321.271,"body":"thing."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1322.132,"endTime":1325.531,"body":"So yeah, I'm, I'm with him, okay?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1326.251,"endTime":1326.471,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1328.611,"endTime":1334.59,"body":"he's wanting to say that today, most people are using"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1334.59,"endTime":1338.632,"body":"empathy in a weaponized way, where"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1339.152,"endTime":1342.991,"body":"I jump into the pit, and once I'm in the pit, I never discuss"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1342.991,"endTime":1346.422,"body":"how to get out, get out of the pit. Okay? That's untethered"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1346.422,"endTime":1346.442,"body":"empathy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.442,"endTime":1347.751,"body":"Right, that's his, that's his concern."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1347.751,"endTime":1348.021,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1348.021,"endTime":1348.031,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1348.031,"endTime":1351.271,"body":"And I'm just saying, \"Okay, make your case.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1351.271,"endTime":1352.851,"body":"Okay, so let's come back to whether he makes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1352.851,"endTime":1353.251,"body":"the case or not."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1353.251,"endTime":1353.432,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1353.432,"endTime":1356.711,"body":"But I don't think he and Stuckey would call"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1356.711,"endTime":1357.751,"body":"empathy a virtue."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1357.751,"endTime":1357.811,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1357.811,"endTime":1360.192,"body":"I think they distinctly say it's not, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1360.192,"endTime":1363.451,"body":"this is actually one of the most eye-opening, interesting things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1363.451,"endTime":1364.011,"body":"to me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1364.731,"endTime":1366.031,"body":"that they drew out-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1366.031,"endTime":1366.471,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1366.471,"endTime":1369.411,"body":"... Is that empathy is an emotion that you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1369.411,"endTime":1371.251,"body":"have with somebody, right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1371.251,"endTime":1371.391,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1371.391,"endTime":1374.132,"body":"It's, it's an emotion and experience you have,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1374.132,"endTime":1375.051,"body":"which is not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1375.611,"endTime":1377.071,"body":"necessarily in itself good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1377.652,"endTime":1383.771,"body":"or bad. It's how and when we use empathy, right? Like anger in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1383.771,"endTime":1387.731,"body":"itself is not good or bad. You should be angry at the right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1387.731,"endTime":1388.061,"body":"things-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1388.061,"endTime":1388.08,"body":"Mm-hmm, mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1388.08,"endTime":1389.211,"body":"... And not angry at the-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1389.211,"endTime":1389.361,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1389.361,"endTime":1391.132,"body":"... Wrong things, and it takes some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1391.132,"endTime":1393.132,"body":"self-control to apply anger"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1393.891,"endTime":1398.231,"body":"appropriately. So empathy in itself, if that's true, is not a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1398.231,"endTime":1399.192,"body":"virtue."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1399.192,"endTime":1399.932,"body":"Define virtue."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1399.932,"endTime":1400.551,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1400.551,"endTime":1401.711,"body":"Give me a definition of virtue."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1401.711,"endTime":1402.731,"body":"Oh, gosh. I mean, why do I have to define"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1402.731,"endTime":1407.09,"body":"it? We know it, like virtue of, say, kindness would be a virtue,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1407.09,"endTime":1409.031,"body":"or justice might be a virtue."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1409.031,"endTime":1411.83,"body":"So, so you're saying kindness is a virtue, but"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1411.83,"endTime":1413.451,"body":"empathy isn't?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1413.451,"endTime":1415.061,"body":"I think on their understanding-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1415.061,"endTime":1415.08,"body":"Tell me why kindness-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1415.08,"endTime":1416.361,"body":"Well, kindness is-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1416.361,"endTime":1416.371,"body":"Fits in, and empathy doesn't."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1416.371,"endTime":1419.432,"body":"Kindness is the way we treat somebody, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1419.432,"endTime":1421.101,"body":"It's a way we treat somebody-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1421.101,"endTime":1421.221,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1421.221,"endTime":1424.411,"body":"... As an individual. Empathy is entering"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1424.411,"endTime":1429.33,"body":"into emotions. That depends upon how we do it, whether it's kind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1429.33,"endTime":1431.932,"body":"or loving or not, I think is the distinction that they make."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1431.932,"endTime":1433.751,"body":"See, I think Carl Rogers would disagree with"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1433.751,"endTime":1434.711,"body":"that. I mean, we can't talk about-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1434.711,"endTime":1435.721,"body":"I don't even know who Carl Rogers is."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1435.721,"endTime":1435.811,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1435.811,"endTime":1437.301,"body":"Oh, okay. He's... Oh, okay. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1437.301,"endTime":1437.942,"body":"You said it like I know who this guy is."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1437.942,"endTime":1437.951,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1437.951,"endTime":1440.571,"body":"Oh, I'm sorry! Yeah, Carl Rogers is one of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1440.571,"endTime":1444.09,"body":"founding fathers of empathetic listening, right? So he's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1444.09,"endTime":1444.24,"body":"the-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1444.24,"endTime":1444.851,"body":"Is he a psychologist?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1444.851,"endTime":1446.541,"body":"Yeah, he's a psychologist."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1446.541,"endTime":1446.551,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1446.551,"endTime":1449.09,"body":"And he's the one who came up with, an empathetic"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1449.09,"endTime":1452.371,"body":"stance towards a person. Now, by the way, I actually wrote down"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1452.371,"endTime":1456.231,"body":"his definition because it opens the door a little bit for their"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1456.231,"endTime":1457.611,"body":"concern."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1457.611,"endTime":1458.08,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1458.08,"endTime":1458.971,"body":"His definition of empathy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1458.971,"endTime":1460.121,"body":"Yeah, so tell me his definition."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1460.121,"endTime":1460.141,"body":"Which is-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1460.141,"endTime":1460.351,"body":"Yeah, on here."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1460.351,"endTime":1462.172,"body":"So this is what he would say."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1462.751,"endTime":1465.632,"body":"Rogers would say, \"Entering the private perceptual world of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1465.632,"endTime":1469.22,"body":"other and becoming thoroughly at home in it.\"... Okay? \"To be"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1469.22,"endTime":1472.98,"body":"with another this way means that for the time being, you lay"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1472.98,"endTime":1476.119,"body":"aside your own views and values in order to enter another's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1476.119,"endTime":1479.799,"body":"world without prejudice.\" Yeah, I'd sign off on that. I can't"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1479.799,"endTime":1483.48,"body":"enter into your perspective, and I'm already so prejudicial that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1483.48,"endTime":1487.44,"body":"nothing you could say would ever move the needle on my part."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1487.44,"endTime":1489.96,"body":"That- I don't think that's a conversation. That's a two"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1489.96,"endTime":1493.779,"body":"dialogues going at each other if I'm saying, \"Virtually nothing"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1493.779,"endTime":1496.019,"body":"you can say will ever make a difference in how I view the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1496.019,"endTime":1496.339,"body":"world.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1496.339,"endTime":1498.24,"body":"Well, I feel that way about a neo-Nazi. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1498.24,"endTime":1499.68,"body":"know we've had this conversation before-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1499.68,"endTime":1499.69,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1499.69,"endTime":1502.2,"body":"... But that's why it has to be applied, not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1502.2,"endTime":1505.48,"body":"just endlessly being empathetic-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1505.48,"endTime":1505.539,"body":"Yeah, that-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1505.539,"endTime":1507.319,"body":"Within itself is good."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1507.319,"endTime":1507.869,"body":"Yes. Yeah. I agree."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1507.869,"endTime":1508.359,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1508.359,"endTime":1508.369,"body":"I agree."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1508.369,"endTime":1510.18,"body":"I'm not gonna be empathetic towards a child"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1510.18,"endTime":1513.539,"body":"molester. There's nothing they could say to convince me that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1513.539,"endTime":1514.41,"body":"okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1514.41,"endTime":1514.46,"body":"No, but you-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1514.46,"endTime":1517.14,"body":"So I think that's back towards-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1517.14,"endTime":1517.88,"body":"But Sean, you'd be empathetic-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1517.88,"endTime":1519.2,"body":"How we use it and apply it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1519.2,"endTime":1520.92,"body":"You'd be empathetic towards a child"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1520.92,"endTime":1524.68,"body":"molester if you were trying to lead them to the Lord."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1525.96,"endTime":1528.64,"body":"So I would be empathetic towards an individual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1528.64,"endTime":1529.799,"body":"and a human being."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1529.799,"endTime":1530.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1530.049,"endTime":1532.109,"body":"And the question is, how are you empathetic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1532.109,"endTime":1535.2,"body":"towards an individual? But I think the way it was framed is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1535.2,"endTime":1538.279,"body":"towards the view and the perspective of what somebody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1538.279,"endTime":1542.559,"body":"holds. I guess I'm interested in knowing why people view a cert-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1542.559,"endTime":1545.019,"body":"the world a certain way, and maybe why they wanna justify it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1545.019,"endTime":1545.519,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1545.519,"endTime":1547.63,"body":"But I'm not gonna try to enter into that as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1547.63,"endTime":1550.339,"body":"an act of love towards that person, [chuckles] would you?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1550.339,"endTime":1551.92,"body":"You wouldn't enter into... So a child"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1551.92,"endTime":1553.319,"body":"molester, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1553.319,"endTime":1553.519,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1553.519,"endTime":1556.42,"body":"He absolutely is getting prosecuted to the full"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1556.42,"endTime":1559.299,"body":"extent of the law, right? I mean, we both would agree on"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1559.299,"endTime":1563.38,"body":"that. Okay, but then that person is released. They've done their"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1563.38,"endTime":1566.66,"body":"time. There's actually a very famous Kevin Bacon movie where"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1566.66,"endTime":1569.5,"body":"he does- ... His time, and the rest of his life, there's a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1569.5,"endTime":1570.519,"body":"certain amount of,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1571.14,"endTime":1575.0,"body":"distance a registered sex offender has to... He can't, he"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1575.0,"endTime":1577.859,"body":"cannot live near an elementary school, a high school ever"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1577.859,"endTime":1581.599,"body":"again. He has to register as a sex offender every single... But"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1581.599,"endTime":1584.94,"body":"he's out of prison. He did his debt to society, and now"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1584.94,"endTime":1589.46,"body":"everybody treats him as a pariah. Okay? So I want to love"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1589.46,"endTime":1593.68,"body":"a child molester, right? I think I'm called to do that. Now,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1593.68,"endTime":1596.099,"body":"that's gonna be hard because every bone in my body-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1596.099,"endTime":1596.209,"body":"Agreed"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1596.209,"endTime":1597.619,"body":"... Is gonna be... I'm a father of three"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1597.619,"endTime":1598.339,"body":"sons, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1598.339,"endTime":1599.099,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1601.119,"endTime":1603.259,"body":"But I'm called to love him, so I better"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1603.259,"endTime":1606.92,"body":"understand... This is called bricolage. We actually talked"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1606.92,"endTime":1607.19,"body":"about this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1607.19,"endTime":1607.19,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1607.19,"endTime":1610.299,"body":"... In our book. I wanna know your, the pains of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1610.299,"endTime":1611.138,"body":"your life"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1611.779,"endTime":1616.359,"body":"that led you to this point that you molested a child. Like, help"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1616.359,"endTime":1620.88,"body":"me understand what's happened in your background, the powerful"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1620.88,"endTime":1622.279,"body":"emotions you feel"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1623.18,"endTime":1626.579,"body":"as you did that molesting, because I do want to help you. I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1626.579,"endTime":1629.16,"body":"do want to bring you back into society. I want to bring you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1629.16,"endTime":1633.72,"body":"back into this church. So to approach that person, I want to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1633.72,"endTime":1637.138,"body":"be empathetic as I understand your hurts and pains, is a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1637.138,"endTime":1641.5,"body":"virtuous thing, which makes it a... It's a virtual- virtuous"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1641.5,"endTime":1644.138,"body":"way of approaching a person. I think anything we say of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1644.138,"endTime":1648.539,"body":"kindness is gonna get applied to empathy. I can't, in my mind,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1648.539,"endTime":1649.779,"body":"see any distinction"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1650.299,"endTime":1651.68,"body":"between kindness"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1652.4,"endTime":1656.519,"body":"and empathy if we apply all three facets of that definition"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1656.519,"endTime":1657.38,"body":"of empathy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1657.38,"endTime":1659.46,"body":"Okay. So yes, we're called to love child"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1659.46,"endTime":1661.519,"body":"molesters. I think there's a difference between somebody out"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1661.519,"endTime":1665.779,"body":"of prison who wants help and to get healed, versus someone who"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1665.779,"endTime":1667.859,"body":"goes, \"Yeah, I have no problem with this. This is fine."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1667.859,"endTime":1671.339,"body":"I wanna get away with it.\" Am I gonna empathetically step into"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1671.339,"endTime":1674.48,"body":"that person's worldview and see where they're coming from? That"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1674.48,"endTime":1677.559,"body":"feels like a very different conversation than the person"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1677.559,"endTime":1680.9,"body":"who's treated as a pariah, did his time, even though it's an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1680.9,"endTime":1684.319,"body":"open question if somebody who's sexually abused kids has ever"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1684.319,"endTime":1686.319,"body":"done their time. [chuckles] That's a separate issue."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1686.319,"endTime":1686.539,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1686.539,"endTime":1691.0,"body":"But at least publicly, it has been done, so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1691.0,"endTime":1692.24,"body":"treating that person as a pariah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1692.96,"endTime":1696.599,"body":"versus somebody who goes, \"Yeah, enter into the mind frame of a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1696.599,"endTime":1699.579,"body":"neo-Nazi.\" I'm curious from the outside"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1700.099,"endTime":1702.819,"body":"how they got there and why they think that way. But I'm not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1702.819,"endTime":1706.638,"body":"interested in stepping into the emotions of that person"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1707.24,"endTime":1709.279,"body":"in the way that you described it with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1710.18,"endTime":1713.138,"body":"the child molester, unless this person's like, \"Hey, I hold"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1713.138,"endTime":1716.539,"body":"these beliefs. I wanna change. I'm open to it. Help me.\" Then I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1716.539,"endTime":1719.339,"body":"go, \"Okay, let's explore. Let's do the backstory here and help"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1719.339,"endTime":1722.119,"body":"you get rid of these.\" It just... It feels like a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1722.119,"endTime":1726.519,"body":"different kind... So my point would be, empathy has to be..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1726.519,"endTime":1730.72,"body":"In itself is not necessarily good or bad, it's how we use it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1730.72,"endTime":1732.779,"body":"and the way we enter into it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1733.46,"endTime":1736.22,"body":"out of love for somebody. So you framed it like, \"I wanna love"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1736.22,"endTime":1736.7,"body":"this person.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1736.7,"endTime":1736.72,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1736.72,"endTime":1737.22,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1737.22,"endTime":1737.46,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1737.46,"endTime":1740.519,"body":"What does empathy look like to love that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1740.519,"endTime":1740.92,"body":"person?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1740.92,"endTime":1741.339,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1741.339,"endTime":1743.619,"body":"Love is guiding how we use empathy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1743.619,"endTime":1743.66,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1743.66,"endTime":1744.619,"body":"Empathy in itself-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1744.619,"endTime":1745.0,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1745.0,"endTime":1747.74,"body":"... Still has to be framed in a way that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1747.74,"endTime":1749.88,"body":"loving. I guess that's the distinction I would make, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1749.88,"endTime":1751.319,"body":"sounds like you differ. Do you differ with that?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1751.319,"endTime":1753.079,"body":"Well, I would say it's all, it's all three of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1753.079,"endTime":1757.16,"body":"those, right? If I'm, if I'm talking to a person whose life,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1757.16,"endTime":1762.269,"body":"in my worldview, is sin, like, \"Dude, what you're doing is, I,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1762.269,"endTime":1765.779,"body":"I'm having a really hard time understanding- ... How a person"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1765.779,"endTime":1770.638,"body":"could hate another person that way, or take advantage of i-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1770.638,"endTime":1773.46,"body":"an innocent child. I'm really struggling to understand this,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1773.46,"endTime":1777.039,"body":"but I want to. I want to understand your perspective. I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1777.039,"endTime":1781.109,"body":"want to feel the emotions behind it, and then I'm gonna present"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1781.109,"endTime":1783.619,"body":"the gospel, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna argue against your"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1783.619,"endTime":1786.759,"body":"position 'cause I generally care about you.\" I think all three of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1786.759,"endTime":1789.9,"body":"those is what we would say is an empathetic response"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1790.46,"endTime":1791.619,"body":"to a person, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1792.138,"endTime":1798.299,"body":"my biggest qualm about these two authors is they get"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1798.299,"endTime":1802.48,"body":"the tone wrong. They have an argument, but then how they"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1802.48,"endTime":1807.4,"body":"treat people within their books, I think, is not empathetic. I-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1807.4,"endTime":1810.319,"body":"they're arguing for a positive empathy, but then they fail to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1810.319,"endTime":1813.138,"body":"actually show it in their books, and I have a couple examples"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1813.138,"endTime":1815.638,"body":"from both of their books we can actually get to if you want to."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1815.638,"endTime":1816.42,"body":"But I think as Christians-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1816.42,"endTime":1817.619,"body":"Sounds like you wanna get there. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1817.619,"endTime":1819.579,"body":"Well... [laughing] But, you know, with"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1819.579,"endTime":1821.319,"body":"the Windsor Convention Project-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1821.319,"endTime":1822.009,"body":"I'm just kidding. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1822.009,"endTime":1824.779,"body":"... We can't separate content from"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1824.779,"endTime":1825.638,"body":"tone."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1825.638,"endTime":1825.68,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1825.68,"endTime":1827.099,"body":"I don't, I don't think it's done in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1827.099,"endTime":1828.332,"body":"scriptures."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1828.332,"endTime":1828.991,"body":"... Okay, all right."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1828.991,"endTime":1829.301,"body":"See what I mean?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1829.301,"endTime":1832.172,"body":"So let's, let's come back to that. I-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1832.172,"endTime":1832.261,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1832.261,"endTime":1833.731,"body":"... If we can. If- that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1833.731,"endTime":1834.061,"body":"important."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1835.031,"endTime":1838.031,"body":"A couple thing, ways they frame this are helpful. So here's what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1838.031,"endTime":1840.432,"body":"he s- he says at the beginning of his book. He says, \"Perhaps"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1840.432,"endTime":1844.031,"body":"the simplest way to introduce the subject, the sin of empathy,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.031,"endTime":1847.551,"body":"is through two sets of biblical passages.\" Gives passages like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1847.551,"endTime":1848.652,"body":"Isaiah 49,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1849.172,"endTime":1852.872,"body":"about how God is just empathetic. \"The Lord is a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1852.872,"endTime":1853.751,"body":"compassionate-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1853.751,"endTime":1853.801,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1854.551,"endTime":1857.211,"body":"... And gracious God.\" So that's built into God's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1857.211,"endTime":1861.251,"body":"character. Then goes to Deuteronomy 13, and says, \"When"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1861.251,"endTime":1864.192,"body":"somebody says, 'Let us go serve other gods,' you shall"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1864.882,"endTime":1869.551,"body":"nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1869.551,"endTime":1870.511,"body":"you conceal him,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1871.092,"endTime":1874.011,"body":"but you shall kill him,\" [chuckles] which is pretty"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1874.011,"endTime":1874.471,"body":"drastic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1875.011,"endTime":1876.882,"body":"under the covenant, the Old Testament covenant."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1876.882,"endTime":1876.932,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1876.932,"endTime":1877.632,"body":"I get that."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1877.632,"endTime":1877.852,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1877.852,"endTime":1879.731,"body":"He said, \"In this passage, we are forbidden"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1879.731,"endTime":1881.932,"body":"to show pity or compassion to those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1882.451,"endTime":1885.332,"body":"who would entice us to idolatry.\" Now, it's a little"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1885.332,"endTime":1887.291,"body":"different when we say \"we\" today-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1887.291,"endTime":1887.301,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1887.301,"endTime":1888.892,"body":"... Outside of that covenant-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1888.892,"endTime":1889.142,"body":"Yes, very much so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1889.142,"endTime":1890.751,"body":"... Versus the covenant they were under."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1890.751,"endTime":1890.912,"body":"Very much so."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1890.912,"endTime":1893.211,"body":"But I think the point that he's making is that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1893.951,"endTime":1897.652,"body":"there might- there seems to be a limitation to empathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1897.652,"endTime":1901.872,"body":"and compassion when somebody is blatantly pushing towards evil."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1901.872,"endTime":1906.011,"body":"It might not be the loving thing to show compassion to that kind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1906.011,"endTime":1909.382,"body":"of behavior. That's how he introduces this. So he says,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1909.382,"endTime":1911.791,"body":"\"We're to be characterized by tender heart of compassion and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1911.791,"endTime":1914.872,"body":"pity, like God, yet there are times when pity and compassion"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1914.872,"endTime":1919.551,"body":"are strictly and absolutely forbidden.\" Do you disagree with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1919.551,"endTime":1922.352,"body":"that in principle?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1922.352,"endTime":1925.531,"body":"[sighs] The forbidden part is interesting."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1925.531,"endTime":1927.162,"body":"And is anybody beyond"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1928.311,"endTime":1931.271,"body":"Christian compassion? What would you say? Is anybody beyond"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1931.271,"endTime":1931.571,"body":"Christian compassion?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1931.571,"endTime":1933.311,"body":"Well, I think even he would say no-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1933.311,"endTime":1933.342,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1933.342,"endTime":1934.561,"body":"... Christian compassion."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1934.561,"endTime":1934.571,"body":"Yeah. Okay, good."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1934.571,"endTime":1938.231,"body":"But not empathy the way he defines it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1938.231,"endTime":1938.412,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1938.412,"endTime":1940.872,"body":"So yeah, and sometimes the compassionate"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1940.872,"endTime":1944.412,"body":"thing to do is actually, you know, not just to listen and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1944.412,"endTime":1946.751,"body":"show kindness and love, but, like, arguably, like the death"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1946.751,"endTime":1950.152,"body":"penalty is the compassionate thing to do. It's not one or the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1950.152,"endTime":1951.692,"body":"other, arguably."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1951.692,"endTime":1954.652,"body":"Yeah, I agr... No, I agree, truth and love."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1954.652,"endTime":1954.711,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1954.711,"endTime":1955.142,"body":"We're speaking truth-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1955.142,"endTime":1956.211,"body":"We can't separate them"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1956.211,"endTime":1958.09,"body":"... And love, and I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1958.612,"endTime":1959.692,"body":"there's no enemy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1960.231,"endTime":1962.892,"body":"that is beyond the love, compassion"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1963.892,"endTime":1968.692,"body":"of the gospel, no enemy. Child molesters, you p- you pick-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1968.692,"endTime":1968.751,"body":"I agree"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1968.751,"endTime":1970.592,"body":"... The worst-case scenario, Jesus is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1970.592,"endTime":1972.211,"body":"gonna say the Father ran to him."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1973.071,"endTime":1975.832,"body":"Right? I mean, that's what the Prodigal Son narrative is about,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1975.832,"endTime":1979.132,"body":"is I'll pick the worst-case scenario in Jewish culture, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1979.132,"endTime":1983.172,"body":"what did the father do? He ran to the son, right? So anybody"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1983.172,"endTime":1987.311,"body":"can come back to God. Those, that door is- ... Always"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1987.311,"endTime":1987.661,"body":"open."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1987.661,"endTime":1987.731,"body":"100%."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1987.731,"endTime":1990.612,"body":"But understand, you have a God who's also a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1990.612,"endTime":1991.122,"body":"righteous"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1991.912,"endTime":1995.852,"body":"God, who's gonna judge. And so I think the Church, yeah, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1995.852,"endTime":2000.251,"body":"call out people. We, we take a firm stance, even in public, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2000.251,"endTime":2002.291,"body":"there are certain political positions we feel like we're not"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2002.291,"endTime":2003.991,"body":"gonna yield on, moral positions."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2003.991,"endTime":2004.311,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2004.311,"endTime":2006.211,"body":"But what is different about our"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2006.211,"endTime":2008.801,"body":"communication, Sean? That's what I've been asking people- ..."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2008.801,"endTime":2011.132,"body":"Today, and I would love to- I'd love for you to answer that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2011.132,"endTime":2014.211,"body":"question. What is different about a Christian communicator"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2014.211,"endTime":2018.192,"body":"than the vitriol that we see today? Like, what should"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2018.192,"endTime":2020.332,"body":"mark us as being different?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2020.332,"endTime":2021.541,"body":"[lips smack] That's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2022.152,"endTime":2023.071,"body":"a big question-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2023.071,"endTime":2023.412,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2023.412,"endTime":2026.031,"body":"... That I think could potentially take us aside."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2026.031,"endTime":2029.821,"body":"I think the bottom line is we have to communicate in content"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2030.471,"endTime":2033.751,"body":"and the means by which we communicate-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2033.751,"endTime":2034.182,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2034.182,"endTime":2037.352,"body":"... That line up with the example of Jesus and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2037.352,"endTime":2040.892,"body":"Scripture. And there's... This is really where the debate is, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2040.892,"endTime":2044.372,"body":"think, because I hear people saying things like... I got"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2044.372,"endTime":2046.261,"body":"tagged on Twitter yesterday."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2046.912,"endTime":2050.811,"body":"I posted a comment to, or my team posted a quick video when a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2050.811,"endTime":2054.831,"body":"student asked me, \"How do I respond to somebody with, who"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2054.831,"endTime":2057.492,"body":"wants to use a preferred pronoun?\" And I began with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2057.492,"endTime":2060.112,"body":"saying, \"Try to lean in, try to understand- ... Build common"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2060.112,"endTime":2062.411,"body":"ground.\" It was, like, a one-minute clip, and the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2062.411,"endTime":2066.391,"body":"response was like, \"This encapsulates all of Sean's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2066.391,"endTime":2068.592,"body":"position and all we're supposed to do.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2068.592,"endTime":2069.081,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2069.081,"endTime":2072.612,"body":"\"The time for kindness and bridge-building is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2072.612,"endTime":2073.032,"body":"done.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2073.032,"endTime":2073.851,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2073.851,"endTime":2075.472,"body":"And I'm like, \"Okay, first off, it's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2075.472,"endTime":2077.472,"body":"one-minute clip to a high school kid who's trying to figure out"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2077.472,"endTime":2079.811,"body":"how to talk to his classmate. Like, you're reading way too"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2079.811,"endTime":2080.161,"body":"much-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2080.161,"endTime":2080.161,"body":"Yep, yep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2080.161,"endTime":2080.791,"body":"... Into this.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2080.791,"endTime":2081.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2081.311,"endTime":2083.751,"body":"Which is a part of the poor communication, to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2083.751,"endTime":2087.311,"body":"answer your question, that takes place in our culture today."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2087.311,"endTime":2087.972,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2087.972,"endTime":2091.052,"body":"But there is, there's a prophetic voice in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2091.052,"endTime":2091.532,"body":"Scripture-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2091.532,"endTime":2091.942,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2091.942,"endTime":2094.192,"body":"... To call out sin-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2094.192,"endTime":2094.311,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2094.311,"endTime":2095.612,"body":"... Within the Church-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2095.612,"endTime":2095.652,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2095.652,"endTime":2097.021,"body":"... And outside."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2097.021,"endTime":2097.052,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2097.052,"endTime":2098.592,"body":"And there's a compassionate"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2099.152,"endTime":2100.391,"body":"way to approach things."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2100.391,"endTime":2100.452,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2100.452,"endTime":2103.072,"body":"There's kindness and truth. We can't separate it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2103.072,"endTime":2106.072,"body":"and there's a lot of people right now who just feel like the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2106.072,"endTime":2109.351,"body":"time for just bridge-building and compassion is done."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2109.891,"endTime":2113.931,"body":"We have been... Empathy has been weaponized against Christians"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2114.552,"endTime":2118.311,"body":"because Christians are nat- necessarily compassionate. We"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2118.311,"endTime":2122.251,"body":"care about loving our neighbors. We're kind-hearted as a whole,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2122.251,"endTime":2125.851,"body":"and it's been used by our culture to get us to adopt"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2125.851,"endTime":2129.802,"body":"certain views on a range of issues, and Christians have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2129.802,"endTime":2133.431,"body":"fallen for this. That's the concern."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2133.431,"endTime":2133.992,"body":"Okay, but-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2133.992,"endTime":2134.202,"body":"So-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2134.202,"endTime":2136.351,"body":"... Sean, what concerns me about... And, and I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2136.351,"endTime":2138.581,"body":"agree, you know I agree with almost everything you just said."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2140.012,"endTime":2143.831,"body":"But to say Christians have fallen for this, I wanna say,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2143.831,"endTime":2147.731,"body":"\"Okay, I'm open to that. Like, I'm not naive to that. Make"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2147.731,"endTime":2151.532,"body":"your argument.\" I think neither makes their argument. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2152.552,"endTime":2155.371,"body":"Stuckey talks about the masses have been duped"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2156.072,"endTime":2160.211,"body":"by this. I c- I can go to a Stanford study right now, 2024,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2160.211,"endTime":2162.351,"body":"where they took common Americans, gave them a blank"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2162.351,"endTime":2165.632,"body":"piece of paper, said, \"Define empathy. Go. We're not, we're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2165.632,"endTime":2169.331,"body":"not giving you any prompts whatsoever. Define empathy,\" and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2169.331,"endTime":2172.331,"body":"then they did a thematic analysis, and by and large,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2172.331,"endTime":2178.012,"body":"Americans did a really good job of having a very centered view"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2178.012,"endTime":2183.403,"body":"of empathy that did not show signs of toxic-... Empathy. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2183.403,"endTime":2184.844,"body":"this is a Stanford study, so"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2185.403,"endTime":2188.483,"body":"I'm not- I'm open to their argument. I don't think they've"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2188.483,"endTime":2192.284,"body":"made it, and I think they argue against themselves. And I, and I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2192.284,"endTime":2195.043,"body":"would love to point out two parts in that both of these"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2195.043,"endTime":2200.143,"body":"books that I think just violate, speaking truth and love. I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2200.143,"endTime":2203.864,"body":"would use that strong of a word. Can I see those real quick?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2203.864,"endTime":2204.364,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2204.364,"endTime":2204.503,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2204.503,"endTime":2204.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2204.943,"endTime":2206.344,"body":"So very quickly,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2207.304,"endTime":2209.483,"body":"we could do a whole podcast on this, but I would, I would"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2209.483,"endTime":2212.583,"body":"identify as a Christian feminist. Without a doubt, I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2212.583,"endTime":2214.123,"body":"would, define myself"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2214.762,"endTime":2218.403,"body":"as a Christian feminist. I've written essays on this, because"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2218.403,"endTime":2221.603,"body":"there's three waves of feminism. See, that's just what-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2221.603,"endTime":2223.063,"body":"There's like a fourth wave of feminism"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2223.063,"endTime":2223.284,"body":"[chuckles] now at least."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2223.284,"endTime":2225.222,"body":"Right. Well, but there's at least three."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2225.222,"endTime":2225.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2225.574,"endTime":2228.344,"body":"And so the first wave of feminism was asking a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2228.344,"endTime":2230.523,"body":"very important question- Are women human?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2230.523,"endTime":2231.003,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2231.003,"endTime":2232.563,"body":"Now, we take that for granted today. We're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2232.563,"endTime":2233.884,"body":"like, \"Well, I hope the answer is yes.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2233.884,"endTime":2234.163,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2234.163,"endTime":2236.563,"body":"But I can take you right now with a group that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2236.563,"endTime":2239.784,"body":"I'm on the board, we can go to parts of Congo, where that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2239.784,"endTime":2243.403,"body":"question is being answered right now, and that question is up for"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2243.403,"endTime":2248.143,"body":"debate, whether women are fully human as men are. So, first-wave"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2248.143,"endTime":2250.864,"body":"feminists were Christians. A lot of them were"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2251.603,"endTime":2254.972,"body":"ardent Christians. Second-wave feminism asked questions like,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2254.972,"endTime":2258.043,"body":"\"If a woman does the same work as a man, she should be paid"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2258.043,"endTime":2261.284,"body":"what a man gets paid.\" And I think now we look at that and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2261.284,"endTime":2264.523,"body":"go, \"I, yeah, I think the answer to that is yes.\" Can a woman be"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2264.523,"endTime":2266.884,"body":"the President of the United States? Well, it wasn't until"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2266.884,"endTime":2269.503,"body":"1920 they got the right to vote."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2269.503,"endTime":2270.083,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2270.083,"endTime":2272.742,"body":"Right? So I'm at least a first, second wave."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2273.364,"endTime":2276.384,"body":"Maybe the last end of the second wave, I'm having issues with-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2276.384,"endTime":2276.463,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2276.463,"endTime":2280.043,"body":"... Pro-life. I'm, I'm sorry, pro-choice,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2280.043,"endTime":2283.063,"body":"pro-gay marriage, right? I'm jumping ship. And then third"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2283.063,"endTime":2286.623,"body":"wave is the radical third wave, but understand it's the third"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2286.623,"endTime":2290.134,"body":"wave. It's not all of feminism. So when he writes a chapter,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2290.134,"endTime":2295.742,"body":"\"Feminism- The Queen of Woke,\" there is literally no nuance in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2295.742,"endTime":2296.503,"body":"the chapter."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2297.083,"endTime":2302.503,"body":"He has demonized feminism, and he does that all over the place."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2302.503,"endTime":2306.202,"body":"He, he's also- ... Very active on social media. I have some"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2306.202,"endTime":2309.423,"body":"examples of him responding to certain things very quickly."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2309.423,"endTime":2309.903,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2309.903,"endTime":2313.403,"body":"And I think, I think when we write our books,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2313.403,"endTime":2319.202,"body":"we ought to be charitable, to say, \"Listen, feminism has done"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2319.202,"endTime":2324.983,"body":"many good things.\" Feminism, has furthered the kingdom of God in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2324.983,"endTime":2327.722,"body":"many different ways, and you would have to say Jesus is a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2327.722,"endTime":2329.583,"body":"first-wave feminist. I'd make that argument"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2330.103,"endTime":2331.804,"body":"all day long. I think James is saying,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2332.403,"endTime":2334.344,"body":"\"True religion is the sight of God caring for orphans and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2334.344,"endTime":2336.432,"body":"widows.\" I think that's the first wave of feminism."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2336.432,"endTime":2337.143,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2337.143,"endTime":2340.563,"body":"When he writes a chapter, \"Feminism- The Queen of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2340.563,"endTime":2344.182,"body":"Woke,\" there's no nuance, and there's no empathy towards"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2344.182,"endTime":2345.804,"body":"feminists, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2345.804,"endTime":2346.364,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2346.364,"endTime":2347.173,"body":"And so when-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2347.173,"endTime":2348.824,"body":"Okay, so let's... If we can, let's, let's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2348.824,"endTime":2349.764,"body":"take one at a time."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2349.764,"endTime":2350.623,"body":"Yeah, okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2350.623,"endTime":2353.603,"body":"So he writes... This is kind of the heart of my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2353.603,"endTime":2356.222,"body":"question here. He's got a line in here, and I should have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2356.222,"endTime":2359.264,"body":"written what page it's on, 'cause I wanna quote him"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2359.264,"endTime":2362.824,"body":"accurately, where he says basically that kind of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2362.824,"endTime":2364.423,"body":"progressive gaze"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2365.403,"endTime":2369.682,"body":"is the biggest concern for Christian faithfulness today."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2369.682,"endTime":2370.543,"body":"That's his longest chapter, actually."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2370.543,"endTime":2371.304,"body":"Oh, here it is."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2371.304,"endTime":2371.932,"body":"It's his longest-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2371.932,"endTime":2372.313,"body":"It's the longest chapter"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2372.313,"endTime":2372.443,"body":"... Chapter, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2372.443,"endTime":2375.063,"body":"Okay. \"In American culture in the 21st"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2375.063,"endTime":2379.023,"body":"century, it is the progressive gaze that poses the greatest"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2379.023,"endTime":2379.483,"body":"threat"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2380.324,"endTime":2384.182,"body":"to Christian faithfulness.\" So the progressive gaze is this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2384.182,"endTime":2389.722,"body":"imaginary progressive friend that Christians maybe bow to in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2389.722,"endTime":2393.913,"body":"how they communicate and how they talk, for fear of offending"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2393.913,"endTime":2396.123,"body":"this person and pleasing this person."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2396.123,"endTime":2396.153,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2396.153,"endTime":2397.523,"body":"Maybe this is someone who writes for The New"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2397.523,"endTime":2402.804,"body":"York Times or has some culturally elite position, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2402.804,"endTime":2403.864,"body":"so Christians have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2404.423,"endTime":2405.844,"body":"bowed down to this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2406.483,"endTime":2411.103,"body":"rather than speaking truth prophetically today. And one of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2411.103,"endTime":2416.324,"body":"the main weapons, this word is used, from the progressive side,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2416.324,"endTime":2421.242,"body":"is kind of manipulating empathy, and Christians have given in to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2421.242,"endTime":2424.384,"body":"this. So that's- I hope I represent it fairly, but that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2424.384,"endTime":2429.103,"body":"his argument. It sounds like you're saying you have... Well,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2429.103,"endTime":2432.384,"body":"I won't put words in your mouth. The, the bigger question is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2432.384,"endTime":2433.923,"body":"this the greatest threat"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2434.583,"endTime":2437.344,"body":"and the biggest threat we should be concerned about, or a lack of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2437.344,"endTime":2437.753,"body":"empathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2438.282,"endTime":2443.824,"body":"towards outsiders and other Christians that we are not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2443.824,"endTime":2446.023,"body":"portraying, biblically speaking-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2446.023,"endTime":2446.603,"body":"Wow, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2446.603,"endTime":2449.583,"body":"... Because you seem to be concerned with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2449.583,"endTime":2452.963,"body":"the rhetoric as you analyze it here as a communication"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2452.963,"endTime":2458.682,"body":"professor, and your concern is more the lack of empathy. And so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2458.682,"endTime":2461.713,"body":"he picks on the word winsome in there a few times."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2461.713,"endTime":2461.804,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2461.804,"endTime":2462.673,"body":"Like, this is a word-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2462.673,"endTime":2462.673,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2462.673,"endTime":2464.943,"body":"... That's become negative in certain-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2464.943,"endTime":2465.094,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2465.094,"endTime":2465.693,"body":"... Circles."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2465.693,"endTime":2465.693,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2465.693,"endTime":2467.782,"body":"We're trying to be winsome. We're trying to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2467.782,"endTime":2471.143,"body":"liked. We're trying to soften things down, is the way it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2471.143,"endTime":2473.722,"body":"often characterized. You're the head of the Winsome"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2473.722,"endTime":2476.742,"body":"Conversations [chuckles] project, so I'm sure you read"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2476.742,"endTime":2477.603,"body":"this at times and were like-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2477.603,"endTime":2477.663,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2477.663,"endTime":2479.603,"body":"... \"Wait a minute, is this about me or what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2479.603,"endTime":2483.264,"body":"I do?\" So I wonder, like, what's a bigger issue, or is it both?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2483.264,"endTime":2487.043,"body":"Now, I have opinions on this, but what do you think?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2487.043,"endTime":2487.483,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2488.423,"endTime":2491.143,"body":"the co-director... I'm bringing more people onto my ship-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2491.143,"endTime":2491.153,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2491.153,"endTime":2493.103,"body":"... 'cause it's not just me. The co-director,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2493.103,"endTime":2493.554,"body":"Rick Langer-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2493.554,"endTime":2493.574,"body":"Fair enough"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2493.574,"endTime":2495.804,"body":"... Wrote a brilliant piece in the Christian"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2495.804,"endTime":2500.222,"body":"Scholar's Review, \"Is Gentleness Optional?\" Like, like, let's say"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2500.222,"endTime":2504.063,"body":"it's rhe- Sean, let's say it's rhetorically not effective."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2504.063,"endTime":2507.623,"body":"Like, being gentle in today's politics flat-out doesn't work,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2507.623,"endTime":2510.483,"body":"so the Christians say, \"Well, then I'm not gonna be gentle."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2510.483,"endTime":2513.523,"body":"It's optional. I'm only gonna use it if it works for me"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2513.523,"endTime":2516.384,"body":"rhetorically.\" No, he makes the argument in this beautiful"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2516.384,"endTime":2516.764,"body":"essay,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2517.304,"endTime":2521.963,"body":"gentleness is not optional. Peter goes as far as to say this"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2521.963,"endTime":2526.403,"body":"in 1 Peter 3-9- \"When insulted, I do not want you to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2526.403,"endTime":2531.043,"body":"insult. I want you to bless. I want you to bless.\" And we're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2531.043,"endTime":2534.443,"body":"like, \"Okay, that's not gonna work in today's climate.\" Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2534.443,"endTime":2535.793,"body":"well, that's-..."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2536.583,"endTime":2538.804,"body":"M- gentleness isn't something we discard"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2539.443,"endTime":2542.384,"body":"because we don't feel like it's working. I don't get a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2542.384,"endTime":2547.143,"body":"gentleness feeling from either of these authors when they go to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2547.143,"endTime":2550.083,"body":"the very people we should be in dialogue with. So the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2550.083,"endTime":2554.184,"body":"progressive gray, gays? Yeah, I went to UNC Chapel Hill. I can"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2554.184,"endTime":2554.503,"body":"name"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2555.043,"endTime":2557.164,"body":"scholar after scholar that probably would fit in that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2557.164,"endTime":2559.804,"body":"definition, but I'm called- ... To love them. I'm called to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2559.804,"endTime":2564.324,"body":"engage them. I'm called to disagree with them, as Peter"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2564.324,"endTime":2567.474,"body":"says, \"With all gentleness and reverence,\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2568.103,"endTime":2571.724,"body":"and I don't get the gentleness, reverence part when I read"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2571.724,"endTime":2575.043,"body":"either of, either of these books. I don't get the tone,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2575.043,"endTime":2576.893,"body":"even if I might agree with parts of their argument-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2576.893,"endTime":2576.992,"body":"Okay, so-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2576.992,"endTime":2577.943,"body":"... I don't get the tone."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2577.943,"endTime":2581.523,"body":"So do you- so fair enough. And they're not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2581.523,"endTime":2582.923,"body":"here to defend themselves and-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2582.923,"endTime":2583.074,"body":"But, but-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2583.074,"endTime":2583.844,"body":"... Make their case."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2583.844,"endTime":2585.784,"body":"But which one do you think is the great-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2585.784,"endTime":2586.423,"body":"Well, so-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2586.423,"endTime":2587.483,"body":"What would you say?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2587.483,"endTime":2589.023,"body":"I've actually thought about this a good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2589.023,"endTime":2593.844,"body":"amount, because I think both of them make a very fair point"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2594.543,"endTime":2595.704,"body":"in terms of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2596.623,"endTime":2599.764,"body":"one of the ways to try to convince Christians to hold"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2599.764,"endTime":2603.563,"body":"certain cultural views, and ethical views, and political"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2603.563,"endTime":2604.014,"body":"views"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2604.543,"endTime":2610.844,"body":"is empathy and compassion, and it's often one-sided, not both."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2611.443,"endTime":2611.983,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2611.983,"endTime":2613.164,"body":"I think that happens-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2613.164,"endTime":2613.173,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2613.173,"endTime":2614.643,"body":"... And I think they're putting their finger on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2614.643,"endTime":2617.284,"body":"this, and that's always been an issue. I mean, they both talk"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2617.284,"endTime":2620.704,"body":"about, in varying degrees, how back to Aristotle, ethos,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2621.543,"endTime":2621.744,"body":"you know-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2621.744,"endTime":2622.643,"body":"Logos"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2622.643,"endTime":2622.664,"body":"... Logos-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2622.664,"endTime":2623.164,"body":"Pathos"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2623.164,"endTime":2623.824,"body":"... And pathos."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2623.824,"endTime":2624.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2624.143,"endTime":2625.423,"body":"Emotion. So it's nothing new-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2625.423,"endTime":2625.434,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2625.434,"endTime":2627.623,"body":"... But it's been, it seems to have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2627.623,"endTime":2632.244,"body":"exploded in recent times, especially since COVID. There's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2632.244,"endTime":2634.483,"body":"been so many arguments like, \"You're not compassionate. You"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2634.483,"endTime":2636.423,"body":"don't love Jesus if you don't hold this view, and we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2636.423,"endTime":2637.623,"body":"shame you.\" Like, it's-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2637.623,"endTime":2637.793,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2637.793,"endTime":2639.784,"body":"... Heightened a lot, so I think they're onto"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2639.784,"endTime":2641.114,"body":"something with that-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2641.114,"endTime":2641.114,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2641.114,"endTime":2643.393,"body":"... And right to draw Christian attention to say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2643.393,"endTime":2646.083,"body":"\"Wait a minute, why do we hold the views that we hold? What's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2646.083,"endTime":2649.063,"body":"the inconsistency here? How is empathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2649.583,"endTime":2652.773,"body":"weaponized?\" And of course, anger can be weaponized-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2652.773,"endTime":2652.773,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2652.773,"endTime":2653.014,"body":"... Right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2653.014,"endTime":2653.023,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2653.023,"endTime":2654.454,"body":"We're susceptible to anger."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2654.454,"endTime":2654.463,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2654.463,"endTime":2656.284,"body":"When somebody's angry, it gets our attention."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2656.284,"endTime":2658.903,"body":"But it seems to be there's something pressing in our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2658.903,"endTime":2663.023,"body":"cultural moment that they put their finger on. So I pause and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2663.023,"endTime":2667.043,"body":"I go, \"How many times have I been, you know, shamed or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2667.043,"endTime":2669.643,"body":"manipulated into any kind of position-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2669.643,"endTime":2669.673,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2669.673,"endTime":2670.903,"body":"... 'cause I have to be the most"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2670.903,"endTime":2674.264,"body":"compassionate to hold this?\" They've really made me think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2674.264,"endTime":2676.884,"body":"about that a lot, and I don't always know the boundary in my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2676.884,"endTime":2679.164,"body":"life between how am I being appropriately compassionate and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2679.164,"endTime":2679.744,"body":"empathetic-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2679.744,"endTime":2680.043,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2680.043,"endTime":2681.943,"body":"... And standing on truth. I don't have that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2681.943,"endTime":2684.403,"body":"figured out, but they've pushed me in the direction of saying"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2684.403,"endTime":2687.724,"body":"empathy always has to be built in Scripture. But with that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2687.724,"endTime":2692.143,"body":"said, I do have a lot of friends who are not Christians, who look"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2692.143,"endTime":2694.643,"body":"at the Christian world, and they're like, \"The way you guys"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2694.643,"endTime":2696.074,"body":"talk, and the way you-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2696.074,"endTime":2696.074,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2696.074,"endTime":2697.983,"body":"... Treat each other, and the way you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2697.983,"endTime":2699.724,"body":"communicate,\" I'm not even talking about these books, I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2699.724,"endTime":2704.784,"body":"saying as a whole, is unbecoming of a follower of Jesus. And this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2704.784,"endTime":2706.393,"body":"is back to your question."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2706.393,"endTime":2706.423,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2706.423,"endTime":2708.443,"body":"Are we... Earlier, you asked me about how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2708.443,"endTime":2710.103,"body":"Christians should communicate today."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2710.103,"endTime":2710.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2710.824,"endTime":2713.784,"body":"And of course, it's the content, but it's the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2713.784,"endTime":2717.744,"body":"means by which we communicate. So online, I look at a ton of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2717.744,"endTime":2720.483,"body":"people, and it's just as provocative as everybody else to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2720.483,"endTime":2725.184,"body":"get views. \"I attack somebody's character to sell books. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2725.943,"endTime":2729.643,"body":"misrepresent a position.\" Like, I see these things happening all"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2729.643,"endTime":2732.963,"body":"the time. In fact, actually, [chuckles] I think it was on our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2732.963,"endTime":2737.903,"body":"conversation on pronouns, that there was a... Trying to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2737.903,"endTime":2739.903,"body":"model for people, here's two Christians-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2739.903,"endTime":2740.143,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2740.143,"endTime":2742.083,"body":"... And we differ pretty strongly on this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2742.083,"endTime":2742.913,"body":"and have convictions, but-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2742.913,"endTime":2743.913,"body":"On the pronoun issue. Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2743.913,"endTime":2744.423,"body":"On the pronoun issue-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2744.423,"endTime":2744.434,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2744.434,"endTime":2746.304,"body":"... But there's love and respect for you and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2746.304,"endTime":2749.103,"body":"that goes [chuckles] way deep. There were some comments of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2749.103,"endTime":2751.063,"body":"people, I believe it's on that video, they're like, \"Just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2751.063,"endTime":2754.284,"body":"watching these Christians and the way they treat each other is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2754.284,"endTime":2758.074,"body":"ridiculousl- is ridiculous, and just affirms that I-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2758.074,"endTime":2758.193,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2758.193,"endTime":2760.443,"body":"... Don't want anything to do with their camp.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2760.443,"endTime":2763.463,"body":"Like comments on YouTube, I think it was there, or emails"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2763.463,"endTime":2766.083,"body":"that I got, of watching the oth- not the way we treat each other-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2766.083,"endTime":2766.563,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2766.563,"endTime":2767.853,"body":"... The other comments of people-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2767.853,"endTime":2768.913,"body":"How they were responding-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2768.913,"endTime":2769.273,"body":"... Attacking you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2769.273,"endTime":2769.903,"body":"... To the comments."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2769.903,"endTime":2770.103,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2770.103,"endTime":2771.034,"body":"Yes. Oh, I agree."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2771.034,"endTime":2771.684,"body":"The comments. Not you and I."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2771.684,"endTime":2771.724,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2771.724,"endTime":2772.373,"body":"Nobody critiqued that."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2772.373,"endTime":2773.264,"body":"No, I agree."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2773.264,"endTime":2775.463,"body":"There was a ton of comments. I'm thinking, we're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2775.463,"endTime":2779.244,"body":"not thinking about how we communicate. So to me, I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2779.244,"endTime":2781.503,"body":"it's both. We can't lose the gentleness."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2781.503,"endTime":2781.623,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2781.623,"endTime":2782.653,"body":"I think Dallas Willard-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2782.653,"endTime":2782.653,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2782.653,"endTime":2783.534,"body":"... The allure-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2783.534,"endTime":2783.594,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2783.594,"endTime":2784.244,"body":"... Of gentleness."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2784.244,"endTime":2785.063,"body":"Tim Keller."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2785.063,"endTime":2787.284,"body":"In fact, while you're right, it doesn't work"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2787.943,"endTime":2792.684,"body":"always politically, I think it gives people pause when we don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2792.684,"endTime":2794.603,"body":"buy into the outrage culture."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2794.603,"endTime":2795.003,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2795.003,"endTime":2798.184,"body":"We actually forgive instead of cancel."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2798.184,"endTime":2799.324,"body":"People stop and they're like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2800.063,"endTime":2803.523,"body":"\"Why are you different? Why don't you play this game?\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2803.523,"endTime":2804.043,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2804.043,"endTime":2806.844,"body":"So I don't know how to judge what's more than"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2806.844,"endTime":2809.423,"body":"the other. I mean, when he says, \"This is the greatest threat to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2809.423,"endTime":2812.873,"body":"Christian faithfulness,\" that strikes me as way oversold."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2812.873,"endTime":2812.994,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2812.994,"endTime":2815.724,"body":"I mean, more than pornography and how that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2815.724,"endTime":2816.414,"body":"devastates-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2816.414,"endTime":2816.414,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2816.414,"endTime":2819.344,"body":"... Churches, more than biblical illiteracy? I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2819.344,"endTime":2823.264,"body":"mean, in some ways, this concern about untethered, uh-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2823.264,"endTime":2823.273,"body":"Empathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2823.273,"endTime":2825.943,"body":"... Untethered empathy would not be an issue if"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2825.943,"endTime":2829.643,"body":"we had biblical literacy and authority in the Church."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2830.244,"endTime":2831.903,"body":"Then we'd stay tethered."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2831.903,"endTime":2832.003,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2832.003,"endTime":2835.284,"body":"But we don't. So this is almost highlighting what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2835.284,"endTime":2838.884,"body":"some of the deeper issues are. So I don't know how to judge"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2838.884,"endTime":2842.164,"body":"that, but I think there's some truth in both."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2842.164,"endTime":2844.304,"body":"Oh, I totally think there's truth in both of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2844.304,"endTime":2847.684,"body":"these books. I think it's a good, timely word that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2847.684,"endTime":2853.224,"body":"empathy, like any virtue, can be weaponized. Pick any virtue, it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2853.224,"endTime":2856.403,"body":"can be weaponized. So I'm actually, I wanted to tell you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2856.403,"endTime":2858.724,"body":"this before we started rolling, but I'm actually signing a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2858.724,"endTime":2860.043,"body":"contract for a new book."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2860.043,"endTime":2860.384,"body":"Good."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2860.384,"endTime":2863.244,"body":"Yeah, it's called The Sin of Listening, is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2863.244,"endTime":2865.204,"body":"the book. I'm gonna write a book called The Sin of Listening."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2865.204,"endTime":2865.804,"body":"No, you're not. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2865.804,"endTime":2866.344,"body":"Yes, I am."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2866.344,"endTime":2866.943,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2866.943,"endTime":2868.293,"body":"Oh, I'm- it's gonna be called The Sin of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2868.293,"endTime":2868.324,"body":"Listening."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2868.324,"endTime":2870.324,"body":"Are you serious, or are you pulling my chain?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2870.324,"endTime":2871.804,"body":"[chuckles] Whatever."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2871.804,"endTime":2875.003,"body":"Okay, look, that's my problem with his"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2875.003,"endTime":2876.043,"body":"tactic."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2876.043,"endTime":2876.103,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2876.103,"endTime":2877.503,"body":"Could I write- actually write a book-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2877.503,"endTime":2877.664,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2877.664,"endTime":2880.224,"body":"... The Sin of Listening? The answer is yes,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2880.224,"endTime":2884.244,"body":"because can listening be misused? The answer is yes. If"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2884.244,"endTime":2885.503,"body":"all I do is listen to you-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2885.503,"endTime":2887.204,"body":"Okay. Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2887.204,"endTime":2889.563,"body":"If all I do is listen to you, I never push"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2889.563,"endTime":2894.083,"body":"back, all I do is affirm, condone, I'd say, \"Man, you've"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2894.083,"endTime":2897.764,"body":"taken listening and made it something that I don't think it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2897.764,"endTime":2900.923,"body":"was meant to be,\" so I'd call it the sin of listening. Now, the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2900.923,"endTime":2904.974,"body":"minute you read the book, you go, \"Okay, that- \"... You're not"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2904.974,"endTime":2909.914,"body":"talking about it that way. His, title- He has to have an"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2909.914,"endTime":2914.596,"body":"appendix to justify- How many of your books, Sean, do you have an"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2914.596,"endTime":2918.534,"body":"appendix to justify the overwhelming pushback he's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2918.534,"endTime":2921.596,"body":"gotten on his title? How many of your books you felt the need to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2921.596,"endTime":2924.534,"body":"write an appendix to justify your title?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2924.534,"endTime":2926.356,"body":"Obviously, the answer is zero on that one."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2926.356,"endTime":2927.574,"body":"That's a fair question."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2927.574,"endTime":2928.144,"body":"This gets us-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2928.144,"endTime":2928.414,"body":"So-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2928.414,"endTime":2930.815,"body":"... Off on the wrong foot immediately when I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2930.815,"endTime":2933.554,"body":"say- 'cause what was your reaction to my book, The Sin of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2933.554,"endTime":2937.155,"body":"Listening? You were like, \"Stop it.\" I would say the same"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2937.155,"endTime":2940.655,"body":"reaction many of us have towards that title is The Sin of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2940.655,"endTime":2942.235,"body":"Empathy? One of the most-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2942.235,"endTime":2942.494,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2943.074,"endTime":2947.485,"body":"... Established cognitive, psychological,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2947.485,"endTime":2951.735,"body":"practices that is ve- held in very much esteem today- ... Is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2951.735,"endTime":2956.096,"body":"we're- he's going after the sin of empathy? Now, the book should"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2956.096,"endTime":2958.574,"body":"be called, in all fairness, and I think he'd agree with this,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2958.574,"endTime":2959.295,"body":"The Sin of Untending-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2959.295,"endTime":2960.356,"body":"Untethered Empathy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2960.356,"endTime":2960.675,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2960.675,"endTime":2960.755,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2960.755,"endTime":2961.324,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2961.324,"endTime":2961.335,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2961.335,"endTime":2964.394,"body":"But he- you know why it's not on the cover."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2964.394,"endTime":2964.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2964.574,"endTime":2966.215,"body":"As much as anybody, you know why it's not"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2966.215,"endTime":2966.675,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2966.675,"endTime":2969.353,"body":"So, and it, this gets more into, like-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2969.353,"endTime":2970.034,"body":"That doesn't trouble you?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2970.034,"endTime":2972.034,"body":"Is... Oh, I didn't say it doesn't trouble me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2972.034,"endTime":2974.414,"body":"at all. That was my point. I was trying to steel man his"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2974.414,"endTime":2977.875,"body":"position, but this more gets into the question of, like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2977.875,"endTime":2981.965,"body":"what's an appropriate title and not an appropriate title"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2982.815,"endTime":2985.914,"body":"to provoke and sell books? So if you s- you write a book, The Sin"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2985.914,"endTime":2989.295,"body":"of Listening, you will sell more books. Does that justify a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2989.295,"endTime":2993.135,"body":"certain title? I'm not saying it does. I'm saying that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2993.135,"endTime":2993.505,"body":"a piece of it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2993.505,"endTime":2994.615,"body":"I'll only sell more books-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2994.615,"endTime":2994.625,"body":"No,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2994.625,"endTime":2997.735,"body":"... In a certain population. I'll only sell more"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2997.735,"endTime":3001.054,"body":"books in a certain, demographic. I'll lose"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3001.695,"endTime":3003.034,"body":"people in another demographic."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3003.034,"endTime":3004.085,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's a fair point."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3004.085,"endTime":3005.135,"body":"And so I think-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3005.135,"endTime":3006.324,"body":"I think, I think you're right"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3006.324,"endTime":3007.815,"body":"... He is playing to the base"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3008.534,"endTime":3013.474,"body":"that is already- ... Convinced, this is... Empathy's been"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3013.474,"endTime":3018.856,"body":"weaponized. He, he- to me, he's speaking to his tribe, right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3018.856,"endTime":3023.795,"body":"And he's firing up the tribe- ... That the greatest threat to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3023.795,"endTime":3027.815,"body":"the history of the church, the progressive gaze, and the misuse"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3027.815,"endTime":3031.934,"body":"of empathy is the greatest threat. I think,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3033.775,"endTime":3039.635,"body":"this is not a good attempt to lower the temperature in our"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3039.635,"endTime":3044.235,"body":"disagreements, among Americans today and even among church"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3044.235,"endTime":3045.775,"body":"members. I don't think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3046.315,"endTime":3046.603,"body":"this is-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3046.603,"endTime":3046.603,"body":"I-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3046.603,"endTime":3047.795,"body":"... A good attempt to do that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3047.795,"endTime":3049.554,"body":"I see your point. So he's not writing to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3049.554,"endTime":3052.856,"body":"convince progressives to not use this as a weapon. He's not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3052.856,"endTime":3056.175,"body":"writing to non-Christians. He's firing up his base. There's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3056.175,"endTime":3057.534,"body":"time and place to do that."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3057.534,"endTime":3058.295,"body":"Yeah, I would agree."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3058.295,"endTime":3061.394,"body":"But you would say the way it's done should be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3061.394,"endTime":3064.856,"body":"different. The language and the title is what concerns you to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3064.856,"endTime":3065.554,"body":"make that point,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3066.235,"endTime":3068.215,"body":"rather than contributing to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3068.815,"endTime":3070.315,"body":"the divisive culture."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3070.315,"endTime":3070.856,"body":"And I think-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3070.856,"endTime":3071.295,"body":"Is-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3071.295,"endTime":3072.775,"body":"What does Jesus say?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3072.775,"endTime":3072.985,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3072.985,"endTime":3075.094,"body":"\"Blessed are the peacemakers.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3075.094,"endTime":3075.775,"body":"So I think-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3075.775,"endTime":3075.875,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3075.875,"endTime":3078.384,"body":"I... So I actually, I think I probably"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3078.384,"endTime":3081.094,"body":"agree with you on the title, just for the record. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3081.094,"endTime":3083.076,"body":"he's, he's, he's saying, \"We'd actually understand the phrase,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3083.076,"endTime":3085.545,"body":"if I called a book The Sin of Anger, to mean sinful anger.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3085.545,"endTime":3086.103,"body":"[chuckles] Whoa."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3086.103,"endTime":3087.715,"body":"\"We need to actually read the article to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3087.715,"endTime":3090.894,"body":"determine whether we... Were clear definitions and proper"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3090.894,"endTime":3093.775,"body":"distinctions made.\" And he says, for example, there's a book,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3093.775,"endTime":3094.856,"body":"When Helping Hurts,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3095.655,"endTime":3099.054,"body":"but it doesn't say the sin of helping. That would be a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3099.054,"endTime":3100.664,"body":"different title, right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3100.664,"endTime":3101.815,"body":"Okay, but read a couple more of these"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3101.815,"endTime":3102.525,"body":"titles in the appendix."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3102.525,"endTime":3105.115,"body":"Or Toxic Charity is like toxic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3105.715,"endTime":3106.094,"body":"empathy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3106.094,"endTime":3106.603,"body":"And I give her-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3106.603,"endTime":3107.744,"body":"Charity can be good."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3107.744,"endTime":3107.795,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3107.795,"endTime":3109.375,"body":"So her title is very clear."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3109.375,"endTime":3111.795,"body":"I give her kudos for putting the word toxic"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3111.795,"endTime":3112.474,"body":"in front of empathy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3112.474,"endTime":3114.576,"body":"Yeah, and she makes it clear who she's writing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3114.576,"endTime":3118.775,"body":"to and who her audience is. This one is the sin of empathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3118.775,"endTime":3121.954,"body":"itself. Now, I- with that said, my only other critique is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3121.954,"endTime":3124.295,"body":"there's some people who've said, \"Ah, he's saying sin is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3124.295,"endTime":3127.494,"body":"empathy.\" I'm like, \"Actually read his book before you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3127.494,"endTime":3131.275,"body":"conclude that,\" because titles are meant to be provocative. We"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3131.275,"endTime":3135.615,"body":"all know that. So I would take some issue with the title. Like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3135.615,"endTime":3138.034,"body":"you, I think those are fair concerns you're raising, but I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3138.034,"endTime":3140.514,"body":"think people shouldn't just look at the title and say, \"He's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3140.514,"endTime":3143.775,"body":"saying sin is an empathy,\" or, \"He's saying [chuckles] empathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3143.775,"endTime":3145.144,"body":"is a sin.\" [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3145.144,"endTime":3145.175,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3145.175,"endTime":3147.335,"body":"You know what I mean. They need to actually read"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3147.335,"endTime":3147.514,"body":"it-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3147.514,"endTime":3147.865,"body":"Right, but he runs-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3147.865,"endTime":3149.925,"body":"... And actually engage his ideas."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3149.925,"endTime":3152.014,"body":"He is willing to take that risk,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3153.014,"endTime":3156.335,"body":"that people will judge a book by its cover. He's willing to take"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3156.335,"endTime":3157.635,"body":"the risk,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3158.695,"endTime":3158.826,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3159.755,"endTime":3161.695,"body":"people are gonna look at that cover, and some are gonna say,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3161.695,"endTime":3162.675,"body":"\"Get out of here.\" The,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3162.675,"endTime":3162.784,"body":"Now, listen, I-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3162.784,"endTime":3164.594,"body":"Your reaction to the sin of listening was"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3164.594,"endTime":3165.094,"body":"perfect."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3165.094,"endTime":3167.514,"body":"Okay, so I agree with you on people who see"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3167.514,"endTime":3169.914,"body":"it on the shelf, or it pops up on Amazon. I'm talking about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3169.914,"endTime":3173.954,"body":"people who have reviewed it and done podcasts and misrepresented"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3173.954,"endTime":3175.554,"body":"him. I think that's ridiculous."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3175.554,"endTime":3176.315,"body":"Right, I agree."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3176.315,"endTime":3177.576,"body":"That's where it gets crazy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3177.576,"endTime":3178.545,"body":"He dispels that-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3178.545,"endTime":3178.545,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3178.545,"endTime":3179.715,"body":"... Pretty quick in his book."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3179.715,"endTime":3179.914,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3179.914,"endTime":3183.215,"body":"And she does as well. But, but can I, can I read"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3183.215,"endTime":3183.434,"body":"you-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3183.434,"endTime":3184.885,"body":"We're bumping up on-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3184.885,"endTime":3185.195,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3185.195,"endTime":3185.675,"body":"... Time."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3185.675,"endTime":3186.434,"body":"Got it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3187.215,"endTime":3188.856,"body":"I don't know if there's anything else I wanted"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3188.856,"endTime":3189.255,"body":"to,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3190.755,"endTime":3193.255,"body":"We talked about empathy can go wrong. I guess the final"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3193.255,"endTime":3193.914,"body":"question is,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3194.594,"endTime":3198.335,"body":"he asked this question, and although you and I might differ"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3198.335,"endTime":3200.974,"body":"in some of the application of it and the issue he raised-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3200.974,"endTime":3201.014,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3201.014,"endTime":3202.875,"body":"... About feminism at the end, which we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3202.875,"endTime":3206.594,"body":"didn't go into any depth, he asked the question- \"What does"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3206.594,"endTime":3208.175,"body":"the compassion of Christ,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3208.856,"endTime":3210.514,"body":"the love of Christ,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3211.335,"endTime":3211.994,"body":"look like?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3212.675,"endTime":3215.155,"body":"That's the right question."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3215.155,"endTime":3215.235,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3215.235,"endTime":3217.434,"body":"What do you think, Tim?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3217.434,"endTime":3221.135,"body":"Oh, yeah, I mean, \"Father, forgive them."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3221.135,"endTime":3224.534,"body":"They know not what they do.\" I mean, these are people that have"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3224.534,"endTime":3230.675,"body":"crucified him, right? Go, go two miles. Don't go one, go two."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3230.675,"endTime":3234.204,"body":"Person slaps you, turn the cheek, right? I mean, what made"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3234.204,"endTime":3236.454,"body":"the church grow was neighbor love,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3237.115,"endTime":3239.894,"body":"and neighbor love to the Roman Empire. When the three plagues"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3239.894,"endTime":3240.175,"body":"hit"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3240.815,"endTime":3244.826,"body":"the Roman Empire, mortality rates were 37%. The church"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3244.826,"endTime":3247.954,"body":"literally gave their lives helping people that Romans"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3247.954,"endTime":3250.394,"body":"wouldn't even help Romans. They went out into the streets and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3250.394,"endTime":3253.094,"body":"helped people with the plague, and they died in droves doing"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3253.094,"endTime":3256.554,"body":"it. That is the compassion of Christ. I am willing"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3257.235,"endTime":3259.715,"body":"to love you, even if you do not love me."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3260.315,"endTime":3260.934,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3262.115,"endTime":3266.639,"body":"will seek to pursue your best-... Even if you try to shut"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3266.639,"endTime":3270.44,"body":"me down, I'll open lines of communication as you try to shut"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3270.44,"endTime":3273.44,"body":"down. That's the give a blessing for an insult passage from"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3273.44,"endTime":3274.44,"body":"Peter."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3275.179,"endTime":3277.579,"body":"I think we're asking the wrong question. Can I be bold enough"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3277.579,"endTime":3281.42,"body":"to say that? I think a huge threat to America is not toxic"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3281.42,"endTime":3284.039,"body":"empathy, it's the lack of empathy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3284.579,"endTime":3288.4,"body":"It, it's the decline of empathy that's killing us. Can I read"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3288.4,"endTime":3289.03,"body":"one last quote?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3289.03,"endTime":3289.5,"body":"Sure, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3289.5,"endTime":3291.639,"body":"So I came across this quote. I was at... I'm a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3291.639,"endTime":3292.119,"body":"huge,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3292.82,"endTime":3294.57,"body":"World War II,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3295.559,"endTime":3300.28,"body":"buff, in the fact that- ... Talk about a world at war. A world at"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3300.28,"endTime":3300.599,"body":"war!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3300.599,"endTime":3301.3,"body":"Literally."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3301.3,"endTime":3303.179,"body":"And lit- and having to deal with each"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3303.179,"endTime":3304.88,"body":"other after the war."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3305.449,"endTime":3306.039,"body":"I mean, I'm"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3306.579,"endTime":3310.119,"body":"German background. I mean, it- there were some hard feelings"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3310.119,"endTime":3314.119,"body":"that lasted for a long time. So one man, Gustav, Gilbert, was an"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3314.119,"endTime":3316.59,"body":"American psychologist who actually went to the Nuremberg"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3316.59,"endTime":3320.48,"body":"trials, and he listened to the narratives and the testimonies"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3320.48,"endTime":3326.489,"body":"of these Nazi war criminals, and here is his very famous comment-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3326.489,"endTime":3329.519,"body":"\"I told you once that I was searching for the nature of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3329.519,"endTime":3333.059,"body":"evil. I think I've come close to defining it.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3333.71,"endTime":3338.26,"body":"\"A lack of empathy. It's the one characteristic that connects all"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3338.26,"endTime":3342.88,"body":"the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3342.88,"endTime":3344.71,"body":"fellow man. Evil, I think,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3345.38,"endTime":3349.599,"body":"is the absence of empathy.\" I think we need to at least pause-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3350.38,"endTime":3354.34,"body":"... And say, not, \"Has my,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3355.519,"endTime":3360.44,"body":"empathy been weaponized?\" Not, \"Is my empathy become toxic?\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3360.44,"endTime":3362.489,"body":"But, \"Do I have any empathy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3363.139,"endTime":3367.519,"body":"for the very people I'm called to love in the name of Christ?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3367.519,"endTime":3370.159,"body":"Am I part of the American empathy deficit"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3371.0,"endTime":3376.059,"body":"that the, compassion, research project identified?\" I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3376.059,"endTime":3379.719,"body":"that's a better question. Before I w- before I feel like my"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3379.719,"endTime":3382.699,"body":"empathy's become toxic, I should ask the hard question, \"Do I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3382.699,"endTime":3385.8,"body":"even have any empathy for people who vote differently?\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3386.539,"endTime":3389.92,"body":"\"Do I have any empathy for the trans community, even as I seek"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3389.92,"endTime":3392.84,"body":"to present what I think is the biblical view of sexuality?\" I'd"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3392.84,"endTime":3393.8,"body":"rather ask the question,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3394.46,"endTime":3397.78,"body":"\"Do I even have empathy for people I disagree with?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3397.78,"endTime":3399.88,"body":"That's a great quote. That is such a good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3399.88,"endTime":3403.139,"body":"point. We're far more likely to do evil to somebody when we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3403.139,"endTime":3403.4,"body":"don't-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3403.4,"endTime":3403.53,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3403.53,"endTime":3406.76,"body":"... Empathize, and understand, and love that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3406.76,"endTime":3407.179,"body":"person."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3407.179,"endTime":3408.36,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3408.36,"endTime":3410.199,"body":"Well said. So you answered the question in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3410.199,"endTime":3413.3,"body":"terms of what you think is more concerning, is the lack of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3413.3,"endTime":3417.42,"body":"empathy. I don't know that, for me, it has to be one or the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3417.42,"endTime":3421.4,"body":"other. I think in one sense, I'm playing a little bit of defense"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3422.239,"endTime":3425.36,"body":"when there's cultural forces that are changing within the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3425.36,"endTime":3429.76,"body":"church and in my own life. How do I not be changed and arguably"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3429.76,"endTime":3434.48,"body":"manipulated by- ... An appeal to empathy that's toxic or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3434.48,"endTime":3437.53,"body":"misguided, that's not rooted in scripture?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3438.239,"endTime":3439.679,"body":"That really concerns me-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3439.679,"endTime":3439.88,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3439.88,"endTime":3442.019,"body":"... Especially with young people in the church,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3442.019,"endTime":3445.199,"body":"who are getting far more persuaded by stories, and by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3445.199,"endTime":3446.92,"body":"experiences, and by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3447.579,"endTime":3451.559,"body":"an appeal to empathy than by truth. That concerns me, you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3451.559,"endTime":3455.94,"body":"might say, defensively. But offensively, in terms of our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3455.94,"endTime":3459.94,"body":"engagement in the world- ... I think you're right, that w- do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3459.94,"endTime":3463.76,"body":"we really have empathy, and love, and care for people who"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3463.76,"endTime":3468.17,"body":"are our neighbors, and care for them, and enter into their pain?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3468.17,"endTime":3468.179,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3468.179,"endTime":3470.0,"body":"I mean, a question I ask myself a lot, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3470.0,"endTime":3473.079,"body":"I'll end with this, is, you know, what if we got to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3473.079,"endTime":3476.42,"body":"point in culture where somebody just says, \"My life is upside"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3476.42,"endTime":3479.719,"body":"down. It's a wreck financially, emotionally. I need to find a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3479.719,"endTime":3480.179,"body":"Christian,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3480.86,"endTime":3485.579,"body":"because a Christian would understand and genuinely help"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3485.579,"endTime":3485.8,"body":"me\"?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3487.0,"endTime":3492.86,"body":"Are we there, Tim? The answer is no. That's what motivates me. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3492.86,"endTime":3494.67,"body":"I don't think it's one or the other, it's both-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3494.67,"endTime":3494.67,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3494.67,"endTime":3496.409,"body":"... And I think we need to do hard work-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3496.409,"endTime":3496.559,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3496.559,"endTime":3499.88,"body":"... In both of those lanes, individually and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3499.88,"endTime":3501.96,"body":"collectively. Good stuff, man."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3501.96,"endTime":3503.32,"body":"Hey, I love these conversations."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3503.32,"endTime":3504.9,"body":"Always enjoy your pushback."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3504.9,"endTime":3504.94,"body":"Uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3504.94,"endTime":3507.3,"body":"Always make me think in a good way."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3507.3,"endTime":3508.9,"body":"Yeah. I feel like you sharpen me in a ton of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3508.9,"endTime":3509.179,"body":"ways."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3509.179,"endTime":3511.429,"body":"And, I have more questions now that I'm gonna be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3511.429,"endTime":3512.05,"body":"bothered with-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3512.05,"endTime":3512.05,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3512.05,"endTime":3514.36,"body":"... Which is good, because I'm gonna have to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3514.36,"endTime":3517.38,"body":"go back and look at that passage in Hebrews and rethink these"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3517.38,"endTime":3519.349,"body":"definitions. But love you, brother."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3519.349,"endTime":3519.369,"body":"Yeah, love you too, Sean."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3519.369,"endTime":3520.989,"body":"Wonderful conversation. Thanks for joining"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3520.989,"endTime":3520.989,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":3520.989,"endTime":3522.5,"body":"Thanks for all you do, man."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3522.5,"endTime":3524.219,"body":"Yeah, this was fun. Enjoyed writing that book"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3524.219,"endTime":3526.179,"body":"with you, and for those of you watching, this is a special"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3526.179,"endTime":3529.34,"body":"episode of the Think Biblically podcast, brought to you by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3529.34,"endTime":3530.559,"body":"Talbot School of Theology,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3531.079,"endTime":3534.079,"body":"Biola University. Make sure you hit subscribe, whether on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3534.079,"endTime":3537.38,"body":"audio podcast or here on YouTube, and we'd love to have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3537.38,"endTime":3540.86,"body":"you come study with us at Biola and Talbot. We'll see you next"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3540.86,"endTime":3548.88,"body":"time. [upbeat music]"}]}