{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.3,"endTime":3.439,"body":"[upbeat music] Is there a link between our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3.439,"endTime":7.12,"body":"therapy culture and the epidemic of childlessness? What does the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":7.12,"endTime":10.539,"body":"explosive growth of charismatic Christianity reveal about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":10.539,"endTime":11.769,"body":"America and beyond?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":12.3,"endTime":15.599,"body":"An international group of gene-editing leaders put out a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":15.599,"endTime":20.73,"body":"call for a 10-year ban on heritable human genome editing."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":20.73,"endTime":24.239,"body":"And what does the barrage of Planned Parenthood clinics"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":24.239,"endTime":28.199,"body":"closing tell us about the state of the abortion debate? These"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.199,"endTime":31.079,"body":"are the stories we will discuss, and we will address some of your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":31.079,"endTime":33.039,"body":"questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":33.039,"endTime":34.579,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":34.579,"endTime":36.84,"body":"This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":36.84,"endTime":40.06,"body":"update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.06,"endTime":43.56,"body":"University. Scott, this first story you sent to me, I missed"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":43.56,"endTime":46.399,"body":"it. I read the New York Times regularly, but this one, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":46.399,"endTime":50.02,"body":"title is- There's a Link Between Therapy Culture"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":50.539,"endTime":54.6,"body":"and Childlessness. We've talked a lot about the concern about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":54.6,"endTime":59.46,"body":"the rate of people having kids dropping to, like, 1.6 and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":59.46,"endTime":59.789,"body":"kinda the-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":59.789,"endTime":61.399,"body":"Yeah, less than replacement rate."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":61.399,"endTime":64.519,"body":"Less is exactly correct. So this author is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":64.519,"endTime":70.48,"body":"proposing a new or additional reason why, Millennials and Gen"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":70.48,"endTime":74.95,"body":"Z-ers might be having less kids. She writes this. She says,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":74.95,"endTime":78.2,"body":"\"There are few decisions more fraught for members of my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":78.2,"endTime":81.359,"body":"generations,\" again, Millennials, Gen Z-ers, \"than"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":81.359,"endTime":83.92,"body":"whether or not to become a parent.\" And right away, just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":83.92,"endTime":88.819,"body":"the question of having kids or not is a radical shift that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":88.819,"endTime":93.719,"body":"new today. \"In 2023, the fertility rate fell to a record"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":93.719,"endTime":97.5,"body":"low. Some of the decline can be explained by a delay in having"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":97.5,"endTime":101.079,"body":"children or a decrease in the number of children, rather than"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":101.079,"endTime":105.579,"body":"people forgoing child-rearing entirely. But it seem... It"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":105.579,"endTime":109.06,"body":"still seems increasingly likely that Millennials will have the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":109.06,"endTime":113.239,"body":"highest rate of childlessness of any generational cohort"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":113.939,"endTime":116.62,"body":"in American history.\" That's significant. Now, this article"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":116.62,"endTime":119.219,"body":"walks through the different possible contributors to this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":119.219,"endTime":121.48,"body":"trend that you and I [chuckles] have talked about on this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":121.48,"endTime":126.48,"body":"program. But she suggests that one reason is, quote, \"We've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":126.48,"endTime":130.74,"body":"held our own parents to unreachable standards"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":130.74,"endTime":135.939,"body":"that deep down, maybe we know ourselves, we would struggle to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":135.939,"endTime":139.58,"body":"meet.\" Now, what- where does this come from? She says, \"It's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":139.58,"endTime":142.379,"body":"our therapeutic and psychoanalytic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":142.919,"endTime":147.52,"body":"culture, where these ideas have invaded popular culture, forming"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":147.52,"endTime":150.08,"body":"the background of how we understand our own lives.\" Now,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":150.08,"endTime":153.039,"body":"of course, you might say, \"This stuff sounds like it comes from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":153.039,"endTime":157.099,"body":"Freud in the 19th century,\" but her argument is that something"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":157.099,"endTime":161.699,"body":"has shifted with TikTok and YouTube, and how there's new"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":161.699,"endTime":166.919,"body":"emphasis on trauma that's experienced within generations"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":166.919,"endTime":171.849,"body":"being attributed to parents, and there's almost everything that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":171.849,"endTime":174.74,"body":"you could find, like a TikTok video, on every malady or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":174.74,"endTime":178.18,"body":"problem you have, in some way [chuckles] tracing back to your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":178.18,"endTime":181.68,"body":"parents. And then she makes this last point. She says, \"Many of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":181.68,"endTime":184.939,"body":"today's adult children often cut off parents for what a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":184.939,"endTime":189.099,"body":"generation ago would have been viewed as venial sins.\" So she's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":189.099,"endTime":191.979,"body":"not saying there's not times we shouldn't do this, but it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":191.979,"endTime":195.939,"body":"grown to the level where we've just viewed pain and trauma in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":195.939,"endTime":200.24,"body":"our lives with such a high level of blame for our parents, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":200.24,"endTime":203.539,"body":"maybe it's created a kind of trauma that we don't wanna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":203.539,"endTime":205.479,"body":"[chuckles] repeat this with the next generation."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":206.06,"endTime":210.129,"body":"That's, So in a sense, it just makes parenthood look like a bad"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":210.129,"endTime":213.379,"body":"deal. That's the argument she's making. What do you think?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":213.379,"endTime":216.719,"body":"Well, full disclosure first, both of us"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":216.719,"endTime":219.84,"body":"work for a university that has a school of psychology that's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":219.84,"endTime":221.319,"body":"training professional therapists."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":221.319,"endTime":222.379,"body":"Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":222.379,"endTime":226.479,"body":"But I-- Sean, my very first thought after I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":226.479,"endTime":227.3,"body":"finished reading this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":228.02,"endTime":232.319,"body":"was that several times throughout our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":232.319,"endTime":234.979,"body":"marriage, my wife and I te- would joke,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":236.12,"endTime":238.539,"body":"sorta serious but not really-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":238.539,"endTime":239.08,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":239.08,"endTime":241.5,"body":"... That at the same time we set up college funds, we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":241.5,"endTime":243.719,"body":"needed to set up therapy funds for our kids-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":244.379,"endTime":247.719,"body":"... To work through some of the mistakes that we made- ... As"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":247.719,"endTime":248.46,"body":"parents."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":249.74,"endTime":251.219,"body":"Now, we never did that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":251.759,"endTime":252.08,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":252.639,"endTime":256.019,"body":"although we did have, you know... W- one of our kids w-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":256.019,"endTime":257.579,"body":"did go to therapy on his own"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":258.199,"endTime":259.24,"body":"as an, as an adult."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":260.62,"endTime":263.5,"body":"And we sorta said, \"You know, I'm, I'm not sure how much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":263.5,"endTime":264.12,"body":"I wanna know"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":264.639,"endTime":266.17,"body":"about [chuckles] what you're talking about-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":266.17,"endTime":266.779,"body":"Sure, sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":266.779,"endTime":268.56,"body":"... With your therapist.\" But I think it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":268.56,"endTime":271.5,"body":"been a good thing for him. You know, it strikes me, Sean,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":271.5,"endTime":275.3,"body":"that the quality of parenting exists on a really wide"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":275.3,"endTime":276.3,"body":"continuum."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":276.879,"endTime":279.1,"body":"Some... I think there are some people who should not be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":279.1,"endTime":284.339,"body":"parents. They're just, they're just unfit. And thankfully,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":284.939,"endTime":287.279,"body":"we have child protective services that takes children"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":287.279,"endTime":289.54,"body":"away from parents who are clearly unfit,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":290.22,"endTime":293.0,"body":"okay? Others, I think, are what I would call are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":293.0,"endTime":294.56,"body":"world-class parents-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":294.56,"endTime":295.06,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":295.06,"endTime":297.68,"body":"... That are just- they are doing a bang-up job."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":298.439,"endTime":300.92,"body":"But I think most of us are somewhere in the middle. Most of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":300.92,"endTime":302.339,"body":"us are what I would call good enough"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":302.92,"endTime":306.04,"body":"parents. And I think what we've- what my wife and I have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":306.04,"endTime":309.839,"body":"realized is that the most important trait in parenting"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":310.54,"endTime":312.339,"body":"has been just showing up."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":312.339,"endTime":313.579,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":313.579,"endTime":315.48,"body":"I remember Woody Allen, I think, was well known"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":315.48,"endTime":318.519,"body":"for saying that about 90% of life is just showing up."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":318.519,"endTime":319.18,"body":"[chuckles] Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":319.18,"endTime":321.72,"body":"And I think that applies to parenting as well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":321.72,"endTime":323.959,"body":"Showing up, what we discovered, covers"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":325.339,"endTime":329.959,"body":"other shortcomings, but not showing up magnifies them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":331.439,"endTime":334.1,"body":"And there's one point in the article that I thought was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":334.1,"endTime":337.519,"body":"really a c- a crucial point, and I'll, I'll quote the author"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":337.519,"endTime":341.18,"body":"here- \"Americans have redefined harm, abuse, nef- neglect, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":341.18,"endTime":345.459,"body":"trauma, expanding those categories to include emotional"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":345.459,"endTime":348.54,"body":"and relational struggles that were previously considered"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":348.54,"endTime":350.579,"body":"unavoidable parts of life.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":351.36,"endTime":354.8,"body":"And I would call those, you know, what we had"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":354.8,"endTime":357.149,"body":"growing up were more our suck-it-up moments. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":357.149,"endTime":357.759,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":357.759,"endTime":360.399,"body":"Where you just had things that they were just, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":360.399,"endTime":364.019,"body":"know, the life's not fair moments, where you just, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":364.019,"endTime":368.12,"body":"learn to sort of persevere through things-... That we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":368.12,"endTime":372.319,"body":"just did sort of as a, as a matter of course. Now, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":372.319,"endTime":375.56,"body":"these may be what some social psychologists like Jonathan"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":375.56,"endTime":376.54,"body":"Haidt, for example-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":376.54,"endTime":376.55,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":376.55,"endTime":378.339,"body":"... Have referred to as,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":378.959,"endTime":383.12,"body":"a coddled or a fragile generation. I don't want, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":383.12,"endTime":385.6,"body":"don't wanna throw the- I don't wanna throw millennials and Gen"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":385.6,"endTime":386.579,"body":"Z under the bus-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":386.579,"endTime":386.98,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":386.98,"endTime":389.199,"body":"... With this, but I do think some of that has"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":389.199,"endTime":392.62,"body":"changed, and I think the author, I think, correctly reflects that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":392.62,"endTime":395.529,"body":"change. And I think sometimes, Sean, it's really clear"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":396.399,"endTime":398.18,"body":"that parents are at fault-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":398.699,"endTime":403.819,"body":"... When there's abuse, addiction, affairs, divorce. You"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":403.819,"endTime":407.199,"body":"know, I, it drives me nuts when people s- when people justify"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":407.199,"endTime":410.519,"body":"divorce, when they say, \"Well, kids are resilient.\" No, they're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":410.519,"endTime":414.379,"body":"not. Kids are not as resilient as we think they are, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":414.379,"endTime":416.75,"body":"think that's often used as a cop-out. And I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":417.279,"endTime":420.74,"body":"there are times, I think, when kids, they've, they've,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":420.74,"endTime":422.68,"body":"they've been sinned against by their parents"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":423.319,"endTime":426.16,"body":"in some of those ag- egregious examples. And I think what we've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":426.16,"endTime":426.85,"body":"also realized"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":427.399,"endTime":431.74,"body":"is that genetic predispositions are more influential than what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":431.74,"endTime":435.22,"body":"we thought- ... When it comes to mental health issues. You know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":435.22,"endTime":438.62,"body":"I think some of, some of the best things our parents gave us"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":438.62,"endTime":440.74,"body":"came on the night that we were conceived."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":441.579,"endTime":445.639,"body":"But for other things, we was, the old maxim, \"Genetics is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":445.639,"endTime":448.459,"body":"the gift that keeps on giving\"- ... For some of those things. We"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":448.459,"endTime":452.54,"body":"have a very close colleague who has a genetic predisposition to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":452.54,"endTime":454.04,"body":"anxiety and depression."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":454.04,"endTime":454.439,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":454.439,"endTime":456.839,"body":"And it's been debilitating for him at times."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":456.839,"endTime":459.959,"body":"And it w- it was liberating for him to realize that there, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":459.959,"endTime":461.42,"body":"there is a genetic thing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":462.36,"endTime":463.759,"body":"that is a part of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":464.819,"endTime":466.87,"body":"Here's one, just one final comment on this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":466.87,"endTime":466.879,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":466.879,"endTime":469.579,"body":"The Old Testament says several times, it uses the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":469.579,"endTime":472.04,"body":"phrase that, \"The sins of the fathers are passed on to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":472.04,"endTime":475.72,"body":"succeeding generations.\" And I think what that means, for the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":475.72,"endTime":480.74,"body":"most part, is that those things that are modeled and lived out"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":480.74,"endTime":484.1,"body":"by parents are often inadvertently passed on to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":484.1,"endTime":486.519,"body":"succeeding generations, and until"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":487.16,"endTime":491.1,"body":"one generation says, \"This trend stops with me,\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":492.139,"endTime":494.959,"body":"and they're determined, they get help, they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":494.959,"endTime":499.12,"body":"get it fixed, and it, and it does, it stops with them. And I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":499.12,"endTime":502.418,"body":"think the article, the article does, I think, get it right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":503.339,"endTime":507.939,"body":"about the impact of parents. You know, f- I think, largely, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":507.939,"endTime":513.44,"body":"think, for better, but sometimes for worse. And I think we... You"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":513.44,"endTime":517.5,"body":"know, I think I'm sympathetic to kids who have-- they just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":517.5,"endTime":521.08,"body":"have things to work through in their relationship to their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":521.08,"endTime":525.419,"body":"parents as they try to separate and become their own independent"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":525.419,"endTime":527.779,"body":"person. This is why adolescence is so rocky-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":528.419,"endTime":530.399,"body":"... Because kids have never done this before, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":530.399,"endTime":532.34,"body":"parents have never done this before either."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":533.019,"endTime":536.12,"body":"And I think both, you know, both sides make mistakes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":536.818,"endTime":537.519,"body":"during that period."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":537.519,"endTime":538.818,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":538.818,"endTime":541.2,"body":"And I think both sides, I think, need to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":541.2,"endTime":542.2,"body":"ask for forgiveness-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":542.74,"endTime":546.44,"body":"... About things. And I think for parent, for parents to own"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":546.44,"endTime":549.659,"body":"their mistakes, I think is a really healthy thing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":550.419,"endTime":554.659,"body":"that keeps, it keep, it keeps our kids from carrying that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":554.659,"endTime":555.25,"body":"that notion"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":555.84,"endTime":558.229,"body":"that, \"You know, I've gotta be perfect to be a parent.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":558.818,"endTime":562.5,"body":"You don't. You have to be good enough. And the way you do that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":562.5,"endTime":565.539,"body":"most of the time, is just by showing up."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":566.299,"endTime":569.139,"body":"That's a great place to set the bar, I think."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":569.139,"endTime":572.12,"body":"And I think in many ways, if there is this anxiety"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":572.659,"endTime":576.08,"body":"that this writer is talking about and has set the standard"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":576.08,"endTime":580.559,"body":"at a certain level, just saying, \"Showing up is success\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":580.559,"endTime":583.86,"body":"[chuckles] 90% of the time, could help alleviate some of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":583.86,"endTime":588.519,"body":"that. I don't know how to assess how much this idea that our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":588.519,"endTime":592.7,"body":"therapeutic, psychoanalytic culture is contributing to not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":592.7,"endTime":596.5,"body":"having kids. I'm open to it. It's interesting. It's probably"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":596.5,"endTime":598.539,"body":"one of a range of factors-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":598.539,"endTime":598.669,"body":"That's, that's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":598.669,"endTime":600.519,"body":"... That contribute to it. I don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":600.519,"endTime":603.139,"body":"know that there were any studies here that back this up or how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":603.139,"endTime":605.97,"body":"you would really- ... Study that, but all I... When I read"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":605.97,"endTime":610.179,"body":"this, I go, \"It makes sense.\" But two things really jumped out"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":610.179,"endTime":612.659,"body":"to me about this. Number one, when you get to the end of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":612.659,"endTime":616.019,"body":"article, she writes this. She says, \"I was a child of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":616.019,"endTime":620.72,"body":"2000s and 2010s, the Tumblr generation, a generation that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":620.72,"endTime":624.139,"body":"enthusiastically imbibed and disseminated the doctrine that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":624.139,"endTime":628.139,"body":"our personal sufferings could be made, legible by looking back at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":628.139,"endTime":631.318,"body":"our parents, our childhood, and our early relationships.\" But"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":631.318,"endTime":634.568,"body":"here's the key, Scott. She says, \"But my life was different from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":634.568,"endTime":636.0,"body":"that of many of my peers"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":636.559,"endTime":640.11,"body":"because I was raised in an Orthodox Jewish community"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":640.679,"endTime":645.639,"body":"and internalized a competing set of beliefs and narrative frames"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":645.639,"endTime":651.22,"body":"and norms, one of which was that my life would include children.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":651.22,"endTime":654.639,"body":"That shows that, I think, in our culture now, with this birth"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":654.639,"endTime":660.46,"body":"dearth and concern, it really is a worldview issue at play. Do we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":660.46,"endTime":663.22,"body":"value children? What is the good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":663.818,"endTime":668.7,"body":"life and the role of religion and faith in this? I don't know"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":668.7,"endTime":671.48,"body":"that I would've seen this in New York Times five or 10 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":671.48,"endTime":673.99,"body":"but now it's becoming somewhat of the norm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":674.799,"endTime":678.159,"body":"People are seeing, even if they don't state it explicitly, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":678.159,"endTime":681.6,"body":"cultural value and need that we have for religion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":682.159,"endTime":683.159,"body":"The other thing that hit me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":683.74,"endTime":686.74,"body":"is there's a book that I love written by our friend at Summit"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":686.74,"endTime":690.259,"body":"Ministries, Jeff Myers, and it's a little book called Handoff,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":690.259,"endTime":693.779,"body":"about passing on the faith. And he talked about in there, he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":693.779,"endTime":696.98,"body":"said, \"Growing up, we all have people that have influenced us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":696.98,"endTime":697.48,"body":"deeply,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":698.159,"endTime":702.139,"body":"but all of them, whether a parent or a coach or a teacher,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":702.139,"endTime":705.929,"body":"in some way disappointed us or let us down because they're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":705.929,"endTime":710.409,"body":"human. The key is to give grace to them"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":711.039,"endTime":715.559,"body":"in hopes that the next generation would give grace to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":715.559,"endTime":718.6,"body":"us.\" And I remember reading that, and I actually made a list"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":718.6,"endTime":721.34,"body":"of key people in my life and thought through the positive"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":721.34,"endTime":724.799,"body":"ways that they influenced me and just said, \"God, thank you for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":724.799,"endTime":727.94,"body":"them, and I give them grace.\" And you know what? I hope that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":727.94,"endTime":729.96,"body":"my kids will come along and be like, [chuckles] \"Dad, you blew"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":729.96,"endTime":732.24,"body":"this. You made this mistake.\" And I'd be like, \"You know what?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":732.24,"endTime":735.815,"body":"You're right, but I'm gonna give you grace.\"... So this really"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":735.815,"endTime":739.975,"body":"highlights the value of faith and religion in our culture, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":739.975,"endTime":744.434,"body":"also just the need for grace to be able to forgive each other of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":744.434,"endTime":745.174,"body":"our hurts."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":745.695,"endTime":749.414,"body":"That's what I think Christianity uniquely has to offer in this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":749.414,"endTime":750.294,"body":"cultural moment."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":750.294,"endTime":753.414,"body":"Yeah, and I think that it's, it- that notion"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":753.414,"endTime":756.775,"body":"of forgiveness and grace, I think is really important, not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":756.775,"endTime":760.716,"body":"just looking back, but in the moment- ... As well. I remember"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":760.716,"endTime":764.635,"body":"really vividly, we had an incident with our next-door, a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":764.635,"endTime":765.775,"body":"kid of our next-door neighbors,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":766.554,"endTime":767.855,"body":"who was,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":768.485,"endTime":771.855,"body":"He, he was playing with our other kids, and it just got"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":771.855,"endTime":773.875,"body":"a little bit out of hand, and I overreacted"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":774.615,"endTime":774.895,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":775.414,"endTime":779.054,"body":"chewed him out pretty good for it. [laughing] and I don't think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":779.054,"endTime":780.294,"body":"he knew quite what hit him."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":780.294,"endTime":780.955,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":780.955,"endTime":783.455,"body":"But, you know, about an hour later, I went o- I went"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":783.455,"endTime":787.395,"body":"back over to their home, and I just sat with him and said, \"I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":787.395,"endTime":792.275,"body":"am so sorry.\" \"I blew it.\" \"I way overreacted. You were not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":792.275,"endTime":796.235,"body":"in the wrong on this.\" And I think it, just see- and my"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":796.235,"endTime":797.615,"body":"own kids seeing that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":798.455,"endTime":801.635,"body":"I think helped them recognize that, yeah, you don't have to be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":801.635,"endTime":804.875,"body":"perfect, but you do have to be repentant sometimes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":805.455,"endTime":809.215,"body":"And asking kids for forgiveness when you make a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":809.215,"endTime":812.255,"body":"mistake, I think can be really healing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":812.875,"endTime":816.015,"body":"and prevent some of these things that the author is describing."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":816.635,"endTime":819.875,"body":"Amen, and that's the power of modeling this. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":819.875,"endTime":823.355,"body":"found our kids don't expect us to be perfect, but just to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":823.355,"endTime":827.215,"body":"genuine and real, and I think your story highlights that. All"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":827.215,"endTime":830.096,"body":"right, we're gonna shift to, a story you sent me from The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":830.096,"endTime":834.135,"body":"Atlantic this week, and it's about the fastest-growing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":834.135,"endTime":837.635,"body":"Christian group and what it reveals about America, and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":837.635,"endTime":841.535,"body":"think arguably much beyond America. Now, in some ways, it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":841.535,"endTime":844.655,"body":"not really a surprise about the growth of charismatic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":844.655,"endTime":847.235,"body":"Christianity. We've been hearing about this for a while, but kind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":847.235,"endTime":851.975,"body":"of our cultural moment right now is a little bit unique. So it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":851.975,"endTime":855.155,"body":"says, \"The fastest-growing group of Christians on the planet,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":855.155,"endTime":857.836,"body":"charismatic Christians,\" and the way they define it is, \"those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":857.836,"endTime":860.875,"body":"who believe the Holy Spirit empowers them to speak in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":860.875,"endTime":866.215,"body":"tongues, heal, and prophesy, just as Jesus' first apostles"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":866.215,"endTime":870.275,"body":"did roughly 2,000 years ago. They represent more than half of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":870.275,"endTime":871.145,"body":"the s- roughly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":871.674,"endTime":873.424,"body":"60 million US adults"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":873.934,"endTime":878.635,"body":"who call themselves born again.\" Roughly half. Now, what they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":878.635,"endTime":880.755,"body":"say, even though we're hearing about declining church"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":880.755,"endTime":885.395,"body":"attendance, quote, \"Instead of killing off religion, secularism"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":885.395,"endTime":889.135,"body":"has supercharged its extraordinary elements.\" So in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":889.135,"endTime":891.615,"body":"some ways, this article is arguing that we're seeing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":892.195,"endTime":895.735,"body":"an interest in charismatic Christianity as a backlash"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":895.735,"endTime":899.775,"body":"against the secularism that has been pushed for decades and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":899.775,"endTime":903.355,"body":"maybe even arguably centuries. The article says, \"Charismatic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":903.355,"endTime":906.775,"body":"Christians aren't the only ones embracing a spirituality that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":906.775,"endTime":911.395,"body":"might seem out of place in our modern rationalist age.\" This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":911.395,"endTime":915.544,"body":"statistic caught me off guard. It said, \"87% of Americans"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":916.235,"endTime":919.655,"body":"subscribe to at least one New Age belief, such as karma,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":919.655,"endTime":923.054,"body":"reincarnation, or telepathy.\" Now, I'd have to nuance that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":923.054,"endTime":927.434,"body":"word \"subscribe,\" but I won't push back on New Age beliefs and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":927.434,"endTime":932.495,"body":"practices being far more prevalent, than we oftentimes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":932.495,"endTime":935.414,"body":"recognize. And then I love this line in the article. It says,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":935.414,"endTime":940.875,"body":"\"If this is a secular age, then perhaps we need to rethink what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":940.875,"endTime":944.975,"body":"secularization means.\" Now, one more point just that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":944.975,"endTime":946.655,"body":"important for people to realize is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":947.674,"endTime":951.275,"body":"they say, \"Openness to the Holy Spirit does not preclude"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":951.275,"endTime":956.355,"body":"adherence to orthodox religious teaching. Most charismatic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":956.355,"endTime":960.096,"body":"churches subscribe to a traditional interpretation of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":960.096,"endTime":965.475,"body":"the Bible that would be very at home with a place like Biola.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":965.475,"endTime":968.174,"body":"it says, \"From a certain angle, these groups are merely taking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":968.174,"endTime":970.195,"body":"mainstream aspirations to their"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":970.955,"endTime":976.015,"body":"supernatural conclusion,\" so to speak. They say, \"The rising"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":976.015,"endTime":979.755,"body":"popularity of Spirit-filled worship and emphasis on personal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":979.755,"endTime":980.645,"body":"encounter with God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":981.375,"endTime":986.174,"body":"has paralleled secular society's exaltation of private experience"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":986.775,"endTime":989.914,"body":"over tradition or reasoned argument.\" So in some ways, to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":989.914,"endTime":993.794,"body":"sum up, they see this charismatic movement as a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":993.794,"endTime":997.934,"body":"reaction against some of the secular ideas, but also an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":997.934,"endTime":998.955,"body":"extension... So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":999.596,"endTime":1003.235,"body":"secular ideas that are extinguishing the supernatural."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1003.235,"endTime":1006.015,"body":"Charismatic movements are saying, \"No, you can experience"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1006.015,"endTime":1009.215,"body":"God right now in worship and prayer, et cetera.\" But on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1009.215,"endTime":1014.054,"body":"other hand, they also arg- argue in this article that this move"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1014.054,"endTime":1019.096,"body":"towards charismatic parallels society's exaltation of private"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1019.096,"endTime":1023.145,"body":"religious experience over tradition and reasoned argument."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1023.816,"endTime":1027.635,"body":"I found that kind of dynamic interesting. What's your take on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1027.635,"endTime":1028.934,"body":"this movement in this article?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1028.934,"endTime":1031.336,"body":"Well, one, I think it's very appropriate that we're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1031.336,"endTime":1036.174,"body":"talking about this this week, because Sunday is Pentecost"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1036.174,"endTime":1038.234,"body":"Sunday- ... On the church calendar."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1039.755,"endTime":1041.336,"body":"And so there's been... I mean,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1041.895,"endTime":1045.275,"body":"my own, my own church, we've done a lot of, a lot of thinking"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1045.275,"endTime":1048.915,"body":"about the Holy Spirit in anticipation of Pentecost"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1048.915,"endTime":1053.215,"body":"Sunday, and we'll do so in the aftermath of that. And as, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1053.215,"endTime":1054.556,"body":"think what the article points out"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1055.115,"endTime":1059.435,"body":"is true, not only in the United States, about how Pentecostalism"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1059.435,"endTime":1062.375,"body":"and charismatic movements are the fastest-growing segment of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1062.375,"endTime":1064.115,"body":"Christianity, but globally-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1064.115,"endTime":1064.545,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1064.545,"endTime":1067.395,"body":"... It's just, it's off the charts, and it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1067.395,"endTime":1070.556,"body":"dwarfs what's going on in the United States. And I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1070.556,"endTime":1073.836,"body":"Sean, you're right to say this phenomenon of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1073.836,"endTime":1077.155,"body":"experience of the Holy Spirit is not anything new. I mean, we've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1077.155,"endTime":1079.435,"body":"had charismatic movements-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1079.435,"endTime":1079.755,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1079.755,"endTime":1082.295,"body":"... You know, for, that have been very popular for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1082.295,"endTime":1084.234,"body":"at least the last 50 years-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1084.234,"endTime":1084.865,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1084.865,"endTime":1088.435,"body":"... In the United States. And I think it's, it's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1088.435,"endTime":1091.625,"body":"it- the caution, I think, is..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1092.935,"endTime":1096.435,"body":"The, the thing that I wanna be careful about is that our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1096.435,"endTime":1100.435,"body":"subjective experience of the Holy Spirit is subject to the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1100.435,"endTime":1105.384,"body":"Bible and not the reverse.... And I think given the cultural"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1105.384,"endTime":1109.423,"body":"emphasis on, you know, living your truth and, you know, your,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1109.423,"endTime":1112.963,"body":"your lived experience having the authority that it does,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1113.544,"endTime":1115.423,"body":"it runs the risk"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1115.943,"endTime":1116.163,"body":"of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1116.763,"endTime":1120.223,"body":"what I, what I would call subjective experience run amok."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1120.923,"endTime":1124.483,"body":"And without, I think without the biblical guardrails on this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1125.584,"endTime":1126.794,"body":"And that's why I'm so encouraged"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1127.324,"endTime":1127.624,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1128.144,"endTime":1131.604,"body":"I mean, it is, I think, really clear that manif- these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1131.604,"endTime":1134.144,"body":"different manifestations of the Spirit can be entirely"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1134.144,"endTime":1138.183,"body":"consistent with biblical fidelity. But I think they need,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1138.183,"endTime":1140.963,"body":"they need to be subject to that as well. And I think most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1140.963,"endTime":1143.804,"body":"charismatic Pentecostal movements that I've been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1143.804,"endTime":1147.743,"body":"exposed to, they take the Scripture very seriously. And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1147.743,"endTime":1150.703,"body":"they would a- they would agree with us, you know, right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1150.703,"endTime":1153.963,"body":"down the line on many of the things in our, in our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1153.963,"endTime":1158.064,"body":"theological commitments here at Talbot. One thing that I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1158.064,"endTime":1161.003,"body":"think we wanna be careful about as well is that what the Bible's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1161.003,"endTime":1164.584,"body":"really clear is that these expressions of the Spirit are,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1164.584,"endTime":1168.203,"body":"are fundamentally for the common good- ... For the good of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1168.203,"endTime":1171.663,"body":"body of Christ, not primarily for our own, for our own"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1171.663,"endTime":1177.144,"body":"individual experience or our own individual edification. And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1177.144,"endTime":1179.844,"body":"they're, they are for the unity and the maturity of the Church"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1179.844,"endTime":1183.183,"body":"as a whole. That's, I think, another im- kind of important"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1183.183,"endTime":1183.864,"body":"guardrail"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1184.564,"endTime":1188.723,"body":"on this, that, you know, my spiritual experience is not, is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1188.723,"endTime":1192.163,"body":"not designed just to benefit me, but it's to benefit you and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1192.163,"endTime":1196.193,"body":"others that we come into contact with. So it's... That, the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1196.193,"endTime":1199.384,"body":"the Bible really doesn't have a lot to say"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1200.203,"endTime":1202.263,"body":"about the use of our spiritual gifts"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1202.824,"endTime":1205.223,"body":"for our own benefit."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1205.884,"endTime":1209.223,"body":"And that's, that's stri- in my view, strikingly absent"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1209.844,"endTime":1212.394,"body":"from the biblical teaching on the Holy Spirit."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1213.344,"endTime":1215.503,"body":"Now, just a final point on this- I agree"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1216.203,"endTime":1221.104,"body":"that, you know, that the trends toward all sorts of spiritualism"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1221.104,"endTime":1222.884,"body":"and spirituality,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1223.403,"endTime":1226.723,"body":"some of which are completely unmoored from anything that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1226.723,"endTime":1230.044,"body":"would look like the biblical teaching, I think is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1230.044,"endTime":1233.723,"body":"evidence that secularism is no longer as satisfying for people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1233.723,"endTime":1236.344,"body":"as it was when it was more of a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1237.203,"endTime":1241.683,"body":"casting off of religious constraints. When secularism, as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1241.683,"endTime":1244.953,"body":"a worldview, had to stand on its own as opposed to i- as opposed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1244.953,"endTime":1246.844,"body":"to be, and what it's in opposition to-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1247.874,"endTime":1250.864,"body":"... It becomes exposed, I think, for more for what it is. And the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1250.864,"endTime":1254.483,"body":"reason for that is theologically, we were, we were"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1254.483,"endTime":1258.243,"body":"created to connect with a transcendent."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1258.243,"endTime":1258.743,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1258.743,"endTime":1260.564,"body":"We were not, we were not created"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1261.423,"endTime":1264.564,"body":"to live in a world that's governed by the laws of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1264.564,"endTime":1269.483,"body":"chemistry and physics alone. And as we've talked about several"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1269.483,"endTime":1272.023,"body":"times, there are lots of shortcomings in a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1272.023,"endTime":1272.523,"body":"worldview"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1273.044,"endTime":1276.683,"body":"that says we are nothing more than the physical stuff of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1276.683,"endTime":1277.284,"body":"universe."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1278.443,"endTime":1280.304,"body":"Yeah, that's well said. I like that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1280.304,"endTime":1284.884,"body":"this article pushes back on the secularization thesis, but it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1284.884,"endTime":1288.604,"body":"should also give Christians some pause, because there's been this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1288.604,"endTime":1292.923,"body":"assumption that as technology and knowledge increases and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1292.923,"endTime":1297.703,"body":"societies move forward, God gets squished out, so to speak."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1297.703,"endTime":1300.153,"body":"That's not a technical term, but you understand society"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1300.153,"endTime":1300.183,"body":"[chuckles] !"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1300.183,"endTime":1301.784,"body":"That's exactly how the scholars put it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1301.784,"endTime":1303.594,"body":"That's how they frame it. The... It gets"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1303.594,"endTime":1307.423,"body":"secularized in terms of its thinking, and religion becomes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1307.423,"endTime":1310.483,"body":"privatized, just to something in your home, in your feelings, in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1310.483,"endTime":1313.203,"body":"your experience, but it's not something that's considered"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1313.203,"endTime":1317.203,"body":"knowledge. Well, while we've seen the new atheist movement,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1317.203,"endTime":1322.443,"body":"for example, fade from the public, we have not seen r- at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1322.443,"endTime":1325.344,"body":"least broadly religious ideas"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1325.923,"endTime":1329.963,"body":"go away. If anything, they're coming back, which challenges"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1329.963,"endTime":1334.223,"body":"the secularization thesis. I mean, this pointing here,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1334.223,"endTime":1336.124,"body":"that 87%"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1336.763,"endTime":1340.003,"body":"of Americans subscribe to at least one New Age belief,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1340.723,"endTime":1345.403,"body":"that would be a whole lot of self-described born-again"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1345.403,"endTime":1351.463,"body":"Christians, if roughly 60% of Americans describe themselves as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1351.463,"endTime":1355.003,"body":"Christians. So I think this pushes against the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1355.003,"endTime":1358.663,"body":"secularization thesis, but it's not a move back towards"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1358.663,"endTime":1362.804,"body":"traditional religion and Christianity. It's an openness"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1362.804,"endTime":1367.903,"body":"to the supernatural, which is good, but it's not the level of,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1367.903,"endTime":1371.784,"body":"like, revival that I've heard some people talking about. So I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1371.784,"endTime":1372.343,"body":"don't think we're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1373.203,"endTime":1376.503,"body":"moving more secular, but I also don't think we're moving"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1376.503,"endTime":1380.564,"body":"backwards toward traditional religion. So this is why, as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1380.564,"endTime":1382.884,"body":"Christians, I think what you said earlier is so important,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1382.884,"endTime":1385.903,"body":"that we have biblical discernment and biblical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1385.903,"endTime":1389.443,"body":"authority. Because we're seeing this growth of charismatic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1389.443,"endTime":1393.844,"body":"Christianity, which on its face is great, that's a wonderful"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1393.844,"endTime":1394.203,"body":"thing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1394.804,"endTime":1397.503,"body":"but within the Church, we're also seeing these other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1397.503,"endTime":1401.044,"body":"supernatural beliefs seep in. Well, how do we decide which we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1401.044,"endTime":1404.324,"body":"fall and which we don't? That's the question of biblical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1404.324,"endTime":1406.443,"body":"authority that must be at the forefront."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1406.443,"endTime":1408.523,"body":"Yeah, and I think that, you know, the danger for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1408.523,"endTime":1410.993,"body":"those of us that take the Bible really seriously-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1411.663,"endTime":1414.943,"body":"... Is that there's no, there's no place for these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1414.943,"endTime":1418.963,"body":"manifestations of the Spirit- ... In our lives. And so I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1418.963,"endTime":1421.084,"body":"don't, I don't wanna go to that extreme either."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1421.084,"endTime":1421.564,"body":"Good."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1421.564,"endTime":1423.364,"body":"But I think those guardrails are important. I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1423.364,"endTime":1426.923,"body":"remember the late Richard John Neuhaus, the- ... The Lutheran,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1427.463,"endTime":1429.104,"body":"turned Catholic,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1429.743,"endTime":1432.903,"body":"theologian and sort of public intellectual. He, he was well"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1432.903,"endTime":1435.443,"body":"known for saying that, \"The secularization's thesis has"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1435.443,"endTime":1439.963,"body":"everything going for it, except empirical evidence.\" [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1439.963,"endTime":1440.864,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1440.864,"endTime":1442.844,"body":"And it, and it sort of mirror, I think your point"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1442.844,"endTime":1447.144,"body":"about faith becoming private, is how people have navigated"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1447.144,"endTime":1449.844,"body":"that. Because the... I remember the sociologist Will Herberg"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1449.844,"endTime":1453.423,"body":"said, as far back as the 1950s, he said that the United States"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1453.423,"endTime":1457.364,"body":"is, at the same time, the most secular and the most religious"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1457.364,"endTime":1459.604,"body":"culture in the industrialized world."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1460.163,"endTime":1463.683,"body":"And the reason, the reason that can go together is because"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1463.683,"endTime":1466.703,"body":"faith had become essentially a private matter. As Os Guinness"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1466.703,"endTime":1469.784,"body":"puts it, \"It's privately engaging but socially"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1469.784,"endTime":1470.817,"body":"irrelevant.\"..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1471.768,"endTime":1473.928,"body":"And that's, I think, what we wanna guard against, is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1474.887,"endTime":1478.186,"body":"the lordship of Christ over all of life"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1478.887,"endTime":1483.127,"body":"theologically prevents us from faith being simply a private"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1483.127,"endTime":1483.627,"body":"sphere."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1484.788,"endTime":1485.087,"body":"And so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1485.667,"endTime":1489.327,"body":"I wa- I wanna be really careful that we don't, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1489.327,"endTime":1491.837,"body":"don't think that this sort of G- you know, God and me"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1491.837,"endTime":1497.207,"body":"spirituality is the full thing that the Bible prescribes,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1497.207,"endTime":1499.847,"body":"because we ha- we have to have the community of God's people,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1499.847,"endTime":1504.048,"body":"we have to have the Church, and we have to have the Body of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1504.048,"endTime":1508.946,"body":"Christ as a part of our genuine spiritual experience."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1509.768,"endTime":1511.847,"body":"Question for you as we wrap up this story, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1511.847,"endTime":1514.467,"body":"you can punt if you need to think about this one more. But"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1514.467,"endTime":1516.018,"body":"my sense is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1516.528,"endTime":1520.727,"body":"there were a lot more debates maybe 20, 30, 40 years ago about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1520.727,"endTime":1524.887,"body":"whether or not charismatic Christianity was within kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1524.887,"endTime":1530.186,"body":"the broader biblical evangelical fold. That seems to have been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1530.186,"endTime":1531.268,"body":"largely settled."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1531.907,"endTime":1535.567,"body":"Now, there's just concern about the times where there might be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1535.567,"endTime":1540.028,"body":"abuses of that, not the principle of charismatic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1540.028,"endTime":1542.457,"body":"Christianity being within the fold. Is that a fair, too"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1542.457,"endTime":1542.728,"body":"simple?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1542.728,"endTime":1544.567,"body":"I think that is fair. When, you know, when I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1544.567,"endTime":1548.407,"body":"went to seminary, I went to- ... A place that w- taught a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1548.407,"endTime":1549.307,"body":"cessationist"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1550.048,"endTime":1553.327,"body":"view of the spiritual gifts, that basically, with the close"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1553.327,"endTime":1556.967,"body":"of the New Testament canon, those miraculous gifts ceased."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1556.967,"endTime":1560.057,"body":"And I think that view, I think, has largely been rejected"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1560.686,"endTime":1564.186,"body":"by the evangelical community today, and I think correctly so."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1564.887,"endTime":1567.788,"body":"And I mean, at Talbot, we, you know, our dean was just at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1567.788,"endTime":1572.467,"body":"the International Pentecostal Conference-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1572.467,"endTime":1572.768,"body":"Huh"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1572.768,"endTime":1576.467,"body":"... In Finland this last week. And we have... You"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1576.467,"endTime":1580.627,"body":"know, Biola has Pentecostals on the faculty. Our Center for the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1580.627,"endTime":1584.327,"body":"Holy Spirit has a director who is a Pentecostal."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1585.207,"endTime":1588.107,"body":"And so I think there's, there's this much greater openness"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1588.107,"endTime":1592.228,"body":"today. And I, yeah, I think to describe that as, basically,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1592.228,"endTime":1594.467,"body":"that debate, I think, has been settled- ... For the, for the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1594.467,"endTime":1595.207,"body":"most part."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1595.207,"endTime":1597.768,"body":"Good stuff. All right, radical shift here in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1597.768,"endTime":1600.807,"body":"terms of- [chuckles] ... Topics, to editing genes. I actually"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1600.807,"endTime":1603.967,"body":"came across this story independently, and then you sent"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1603.967,"endTime":1607.788,"body":"it as well. So this was getting some attention this week, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1607.788,"endTime":1612.067,"body":"it's in a, it's in a online publication called Fierce"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1612.067,"endTime":1615.907,"body":"Biotech. And apparently, an international group of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1615.907,"endTime":1620.827,"body":"gene-editing leaders has put out a call for a 10-year ban"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1621.487,"endTime":1626.268,"body":"on heritable human genome editing, extending a moratorium"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1626.268,"endTime":1629.686,"body":"that was first proposed in the fallout of a Chinese"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1629.686,"endTime":1634.048,"body":"researcher's widely decried use of CRISPR on human"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1634.567,"endTime":1639.288,"body":"embryos. Now, one of the authors says, HHGE for short, \"It"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1639.288,"endTime":1643.067,"body":"provokes fundamental questions related to the nature of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1643.067,"endTime":1647.467,"body":"human person and the future of humanity. Individual scientists"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1647.467,"endTime":1649.967,"body":"acting alone without transparency or regulatory"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1649.967,"endTime":1654.268,"body":"oversight should not decide the timing and conditions for this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1654.268,"endTime":1657.028,"body":"application.\" Now, one of the things that was really"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1657.028,"endTime":1660.827,"body":"interesting to me is that they point out how editing the human"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1660.827,"endTime":1665.867,"body":"germline, meaning reproductive cells like sperm and eggs,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1665.867,"endTime":1669.607,"body":"changing the genome of these cells means edits that can be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1669.607,"endTime":1674.067,"body":"passed down to future generations, not just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1674.067,"endTime":1679.028,"body":"individuals in their lifetime. Hence, they're raising concern"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1679.028,"endTime":1684.107,"body":"about designer babies, the possibility of eugenics. This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1684.107,"endTime":1689.028,"body":"article sounds almost alarmist. Is it, or is this more a term a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1689.028,"endTime":1690.127,"body":"good idea?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1690.127,"endTime":1695.508,"body":"Well, it's not, it's not alarmist. And are... This"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1695.508,"endTime":1699.087,"body":"concern about what y- what you refer to as germline therapy,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1699.087,"endTime":1703.087,"body":"where traits can be passed, not necessarily will be, but can be-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1703.087,"endTime":1704.567,"body":"... Passed to succeeding generations,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1705.107,"endTime":1706.428,"body":"has been, that's been,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1707.728,"endTime":1712.248,"body":"pretty consistent throughout the last 20 or 30 years that we've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1712.248,"endTime":1715.768,"body":"been doing gene therapy. So just d- let's be clear for our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1715.768,"endTime":1716.087,"body":"listeners."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1716.087,"endTime":1716.667,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1716.667,"endTime":1718.028,"body":"Two different... We're talking about two"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1718.028,"endTime":1720.827,"body":"different types of genes, gene therapy here. What's called"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1720.827,"endTime":1724.946,"body":"genetic, I mean, genetic engineering typically has been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1724.946,"endTime":1728.167,"body":"referred to as somatic cell therapy, which means it only"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1728.167,"endTime":1732.136,"body":"affects the individual patient. Those traits won't be passed on."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1732.136,"endTime":1735.347,"body":"And then germline, which can be passed on to succeeding"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1735.347,"endTime":1739.087,"body":"generations. Now, we-- two weeks ago, we talked about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1739.647,"endTime":1742.587,"body":"this customized gene editing treatment for this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1742.587,"endTime":1744.107,"body":"nine-month-old baby boy-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1744.107,"endTime":1744.298,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1744.298,"endTime":1747.728,"body":"... That had, it targeted a specific place"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1747.728,"endTime":1750.967,"body":"on the genome, replaced it with properly functioning genes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1750.967,"endTime":1754.048,"body":"Basically, if you remember, genetic sc- genetic pair,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1754.048,"endTime":1756.268,"body":"genetic scissors with a GPS locator"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1756.987,"endTime":1760.847,"body":"on it. That's somatic cell therapy, that that only is gonna"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1760.847,"endTime":1763.327,"body":"affect that child. That's not what- ... These authors are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1763.327,"endTime":1766.647,"body":"talking about. Okay? What they're talking about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1767.587,"endTime":1770.987,"body":"is therapy applied to the sex cells, like you described, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1770.987,"endTime":1774.928,"body":"early-stage embryos. They can also carry these on to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1774.928,"endTime":1778.347,"body":"succeeding generations. And the reason, the instance that gave"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1778.347,"endTime":1781.487,"body":"rise to this article were experiments in China on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1781.487,"endTime":1786.248,"body":"early-stage embryos. Now, the reason for this concern is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1786.248,"endTime":1789.507,"body":"there's so much about the genetic code that we just don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1789.507,"endTime":1793.157,"body":"know anything about. And the, there- ... There's a huge fear,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1793.157,"endTime":1797.028,"body":"and justifiably so, of the law of unintended consequences"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1797.028,"endTime":1801.048,"body":"coming around back to bite us in the rear end. And the sort of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1801.048,"endTime":1804.208,"body":"the standard example of this is the early gene therapy"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1804.208,"endTime":1807.367,"body":"protocols that were done for sickle cell anaemia, which"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1807.367,"endTime":1810.827,"body":"affects predominantly African Americans. It was a great"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1810.827,"endTime":1814.367,"body":"therapy that knocked out the gene that triggered that, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1814.367,"endTime":1816.487,"body":"what it also did was it knocked out"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1817.007,"endTime":1820.507,"body":"the gene that gave the body its resistance to malaria."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1821.228,"endTime":1825.347,"body":"And so, y- I mean, yeah, it was on balance, I think it, we... I,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1825.347,"endTime":1829.887,"body":"I would take that. But if you're working with, you know, Black"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1829.887,"endTime":1833.051,"body":"people in the United States-... Who aren't routinely exposed to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1833.051,"endTime":1835.131,"body":"malaria, that's one thing, but if you're working with Black"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1835.131,"endTime":1836.891,"body":"people in sub-Saharan Africa-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1836.891,"endTime":1837.48,"body":"Yeah, good point"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1837.48,"endTime":1839.932,"body":"... Whom exposure to malaria is huge-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1840.531,"endTime":1840.83,"body":"then,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1841.451,"endTime":1843.891,"body":"you've gotta ask ourselves, w- have we really, have we really"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1843.891,"endTime":1848.971,"body":"done a good thing, in the broad scheme of things? So that's the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1848.971,"endTime":1852.071,"body":"point of this. I think it's entirely well taken, but it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1852.071,"endTime":1858.051,"body":"not really something that's new. It's a new application to the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1858.051,"endTime":1862.59,"body":"CRISPR method of gene editing- ... That has become kind of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1862.59,"endTime":1867.991,"body":"way, the way we're doing gene therapy today. So I th- I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1867.991,"endTime":1870.67,"body":"it's right to raise the prospect of eugenics."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1871.311,"endTime":1875.371,"body":"[lips smack] but what we have to be careful about is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1875.371,"endTime":1876.471,"body":"most of the traits"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1877.311,"endTime":1880.59,"body":"that we would, we would genetically engineer to give"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1880.59,"endTime":1882.811,"body":"kids an advantage, like in IQ-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1882.811,"endTime":1883.131,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1883.131,"endTime":1886.731,"body":"... Or things like that, are not single-gene"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1886.731,"endTime":1889.751,"body":"traits. They're, they're the interaction of multiple genes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1889.751,"endTime":1893.411,"body":"together. That's a, that's a lot more challenging to try and in-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1893.411,"endTime":1895.601,"body":"to, quote, \"engineer that,\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1896.491,"endTime":1898.211,"body":"you know, for kids in the future. So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1898.771,"endTime":1903.011,"body":"I'm, I'm not... I mean, I think we have the capability to do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1903.011,"endTime":1907.83,"body":"designer children, but I think it's- there's still some major"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1907.83,"endTime":1909.031,"body":"technological hurdles-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1909.031,"endTime":1909.451,"body":"To get there"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1909.451,"endTime":1911.83,"body":"... To clear before we actually arrive there."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1911.83,"endTime":1913.891,"body":"So that's not quite the immediate concern. The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1913.891,"endTime":1916.371,"body":"concern here is we have these technologies, like we talked"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1916.371,"endTime":1919.891,"body":"about two weeks ago, to potentially help with a medical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1919.891,"endTime":1924.731,"body":"condition, but we don't know what tweaking with the germline"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1924.731,"endTime":1926.611,"body":"genes would do and have an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1927.531,"endTime":1929.811,"body":"alternate effect negatively."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1929.811,"endTime":1930.131,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1930.131,"endTime":1932.09,"body":"We can't really know those things, and if it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1932.09,"endTime":1935.251,"body":"tied to the germline, then we ch- [chuckles] we affect things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1935.251,"endTime":1936.011,"body":"that go-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1936.011,"endTime":1936.151,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1936.151,"endTime":1937.891,"body":"... Generation after generation after"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1937.891,"endTime":1938.511,"body":"generation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1938.511,"endTime":1940.83,"body":"Right. With, with somatic cell treatment,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1941.571,"endTime":1944.231,"body":"if it, if we get an unintended consequence, you-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1944.231,"endTime":1944.672,"body":"It's limited"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1944.672,"endTime":1946.432,"body":"... You know, you know what it is-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1946.432,"endTime":1946.442,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1946.442,"endTime":1947.891,"body":"... And it stops there."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1947.891,"endTime":1950.051,"body":"That makes sense. How much confidence do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1950.051,"endTime":1953.491,"body":"you have? Because I'll just speak for myself as an outsider,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1953.491,"endTime":1956.211,"body":"and my level of confidence is zero."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1956.211,"endTime":1956.851,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1956.851,"endTime":1960.251,"body":"That this came out, this was... Tighter"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1960.251,"endTime":1964.652,"body":"controls began in 2019 after this Chinese researcher"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1964.652,"endTime":1969.771,"body":"announced that twin girls had been born from embryos he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1969.771,"endTime":1971.931,"body":"gene-edited with CRISPR."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1972.511,"endTime":1975.771,"body":"Now, he was found guilty of illegal medical practice and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1975.771,"endTime":1979.451,"body":"jailed for three years, 3 million Chinese yuan, about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1979.451,"endTime":1981.271,"body":"$430,000."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1981.951,"endTime":1985.471,"body":"So it seems like there was some action that was taken, but I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1985.471,"endTime":1990.051,"body":"just have very little confidence that people are gonna listen to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1990.051,"endTime":1995.652,"body":"this group of gene editors, and if they think it benefits them,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1995.652,"endTime":1999.33,"body":"and this isn't just China, this is beyond, people will do it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1999.33,"endTime":2002.311,"body":"The, the cat's out of the bag, so to speak."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2002.311,"endTime":2005.291,"body":"Well, the enforcement level, in my view,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2005.291,"endTime":2007.891,"body":"is not really at the government"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2008.731,"endTime":2010.051,"body":"level- ... And the level of the law."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2010.711,"endTime":2013.511,"body":"The people who are gonna enforce it are the scientists"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2014.152,"endTime":2018.471,"body":"and eventually the physicians who apply this in their medical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2018.471,"endTime":2018.991,"body":"practice,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2020.192,"endTime":2024.192,"body":"and if they, if they're, you know, if they're doing this on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2024.192,"endTime":2027.851,"body":"a, on a regular basis, it's gonna be really challenging to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2027.851,"endTime":2031.152,"body":"enforce that. So far, I think the scientific consensus is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2031.152,"endTime":2032.451,"body":"pretty solid-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2032.451,"endTime":2032.692,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2032.692,"endTime":2035.711,"body":"... That we don't wanna do germline therapy, at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2035.711,"endTime":2038.471,"body":"least until we know a whole lot more about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2038.991,"endTime":2043.152,"body":"what the, what the unintended consequences might be. Because,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2043.152,"endTime":2046.391,"body":"the merit in... I mean, it's one thing to knock out a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2046.391,"endTime":2050.731,"body":"disease for you. It's another thing to knock it out for, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2050.731,"endTime":2051.55,"body":"know, potentially-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2051.55,"endTime":2051.822,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2051.822,"endTime":2055.55,"body":"... All of your descendants. And so I understand"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2055.55,"endTime":2060.55,"body":"in principle why that's a good thing, but there's, there's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2060.55,"endTime":2064.211,"body":"huge but [chuckles] in that, in that there's just so much that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2064.211,"endTime":2068.471,"body":"we still don't know about what we might be unleashing onto"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2068.471,"endTime":2069.831,"body":"future generations."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2071.172,"endTime":2072.851,"body":"Fair enough. Good point. A lot of biblical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2072.851,"endTime":2076.911,"body":"examples are coming to mind, but I think the point is well"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2076.911,"endTime":2081.672,"body":"made. This, this last story surprised me. I was not aware of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2081.672,"endTime":2086.652,"body":"this. A student of ours at, in the MA Apologetics program,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2086.652,"endTime":2087.49,"body":"sent me this link"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2088.231,"endTime":2091.411,"body":"showing how Planned Parenthood has recently announced the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2091.411,"endTime":2094.871,"body":"closure of several clinics across the US"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2095.471,"endTime":2098.711,"body":"due to a combination of federal funding cuts, political"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2098.711,"endTime":2101.652,"body":"pressure, and shifts in patient care"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2102.271,"endTime":2104.592,"body":"models. So I won't read all these articles, but they talk"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2104.592,"endTime":2108.751,"body":"about, for example, in Minnesota and Iowa, they're set to close"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2108.751,"endTime":2113.391,"body":"eight clinics, four Minnesota, four Iowa, by July 1, within a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2113.391,"endTime":2114.931,"body":"short time here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2115.471,"endTime":2121.271,"body":"It's attributed to $2.8 million in Title IX funds, a freeze on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2121.271,"endTime":2125.211,"body":"that, Medicaid cuts, declining reimbursements,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2126.032,"endTime":2130.072,"body":"other factors. But what's interesting is, in 2023, annual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2130.072,"endTime":2135.01,"body":"abortions, fueled largely by more women traveling to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2135.01,"endTime":2137.612,"body":"Minnesota, increased by,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2138.231,"endTime":2146.471,"body":"16%. And yet, in 2020, Planned Parenthood performed 72% of all"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2146.471,"endTime":2151.471,"body":"abortions in Minnesota. 72%. Now, they give lists here in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2151.471,"endTime":2156.672,"body":"Michigan and in Illinois and in Utah, interestingly enough. New"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2156.672,"endTime":2158.572,"body":"York, this one got my attention,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2159.731,"endTime":2160.152,"body":"about,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2160.672,"endTime":2163.351,"body":"the cessation of abortions after 20 weeks."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2164.931,"endTime":2168.331,"body":"There's some closures in New York, some in Mississippi, so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2168.331,"endTime":2172.112,"body":"these are, like, more conservative and more liberal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2172.112,"endTime":2174.371,"body":"states we're seeing this trend."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2175.612,"endTime":2177.612,"body":"Does this surprise you? Did you see this coming? What do you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2177.612,"endTime":2178.351,"body":"make of this?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2178.351,"endTime":2178.911,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2180.632,"endTime":2184.452,"body":"I think I did not see it coming in the aftermath of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2184.452,"endTime":2189.05,"body":"Dobbs decision that overturned Roe v. Wade, because you were"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2189.05,"endTime":2191.391,"body":"just gonna see more people hit the road-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2191.391,"endTime":2191.581,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2191.581,"endTime":2194.195,"body":"... For abortions.... And, you know, w-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2194.195,"endTime":2195.315,"body":"in the aftermath of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2195.985,"endTime":2197.376,"body":"that dec- decision that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2197.916,"endTime":2201.295,"body":"sent abortion back to the states, basically, roughly half"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2201.295,"endTime":2201.795,"body":"the states"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2202.335,"endTime":2205.456,"body":"affirmed that Roe v. Wade was still gonna be the law of their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2205.456,"endTime":2208.795,"body":"state. You know, and even our state of California declared"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2208.795,"endTime":2211.856,"body":"itself a sanctuary state for abortion, which beyond,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2212.675,"endTime":2215.215,"body":"beyond the symbolic value of that, I'm not, I'm not exactly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2215.215,"endTime":2217.596,"body":"sure the impact of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2218.315,"endTime":2221.516,"body":"And I think some of, some of the closures of these clinics has to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2221.516,"endTime":2226.335,"body":"do with recent, federal funding decisions, that have been made"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2226.335,"endTime":2231.215,"body":"to cut off federal funding for Planned Parenthood. Now, I view"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2231.215,"endTime":2233.596,"body":"this as basically pretty good news."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2233.596,"endTime":2234.775,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2234.775,"endTime":2238.135,"body":"But at the risk of being callous, I recognize that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2238.135,"endTime":2241.715,"body":"Planned Parenthood does provide other medical services,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2241.715,"endTime":2247.735,"body":"largely for poor women, besides abortion services. But we should"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2247.735,"endTime":2252.135,"body":"be clear that abortion services are by far the lion's share of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2252.135,"endTime":2254.516,"body":"their revenue- ... You know, outside of government,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2254.516,"endTime":2256.855,"body":"government grants that they get from the federal government and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2256.855,"endTime":2259.835,"body":"from their states. And here's the statistic, Sean, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2259.835,"endTime":2261.416,"body":"that really matters, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2262.376,"endTime":2263.896,"body":"roughly 90%"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2264.556,"endTime":2265.755,"body":"of pregnant women"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2266.416,"endTime":2268.335,"body":"who enter a Planned Parenthood clinic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2268.956,"endTime":2272.096,"body":"come out of that clinic not being pregnant any longer."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2274.456,"endTime":2277.416,"body":"And so it's... I mean, you can, you can say whatever you want"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2278.275,"endTime":2281.155,"body":"about the other services that Planned Parenthood provides, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2281.155,"endTime":2283.635,"body":"some of those, I think, we would say are good, are good, are good"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2283.635,"endTime":2285.536,"body":"just general healthcare services for women"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2286.275,"endTime":2287.976,"body":"and are good things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2288.876,"endTime":2291.545,"body":"But the lion's share of what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2292.076,"endTime":2293.315,"body":"Planned Parenthood does"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2294.175,"endTime":2298.916,"body":"is something that you and I have grave problems with."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2298.916,"endTime":2299.536,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2299.536,"endTime":2303.215,"body":"And so I think, I think shutting down that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2303.996,"endTime":2308.315,"body":"access to abortion services,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2308.876,"endTime":2311.675,"body":"I think on balance for the unborn, is a good thing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2312.215,"endTime":2312.956,"body":"Now, what it's done"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2313.476,"endTime":2315.576,"body":"is it's also created,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2316.115,"endTime":2319.335,"body":"a sense of urgency and desperation for women with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2319.335,"endTime":2320.556,"body":"unwanted pregnancies"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2321.436,"endTime":2326.115,"body":"who don't, don't have a place to go with that. And what that does"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2326.115,"endTime":2329.275,"body":"is o- what we've talked about before, is it opens up"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2329.275,"endTime":2332.675,"body":"opportunities for other nonprofits, and particularly for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2332.675,"endTime":2336.215,"body":"the church, to come in and put our money where our mouth is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2336.215,"endTime":2340.675,"body":"about abortion, and to be, to be much more proactive"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2341.456,"endTime":2342.635,"body":"and engaged with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2343.175,"endTime":2346.496,"body":"providing tangible assistance for these women- ... Who are in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2346.496,"endTime":2349.195,"body":"increasingly desperate circumstances."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2350.396,"endTime":2353.076,"body":"I think those other services that Planned Parenthood"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2353.076,"endTime":2356.155,"body":"was providing, they're gonna have to be picked up somewhere"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2356.155,"endTime":2356.755,"body":"else."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2356.755,"endTime":2357.516,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2357.516,"endTime":2360.335,"body":"And hosp- you know, hospitals and, you know, health"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2360.335,"endTime":2363.596,"body":"clinics in the communities can do some of that, but I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2363.596,"endTime":2368.056,"body":"it's gonna fall on other nonprofits and on churches to be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2368.056,"endTime":2372.255,"body":"able to provide at least the resources, if not the actual"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2372.255,"endTime":2374.556,"body":"service. You know, many of the Living Well clinics that I've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2374.556,"endTime":2378.115,"body":"been involved with in the past, they have, you know, pro bono"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2378.115,"endTime":2381.115,"body":"physicians who come and donate their services. They, they raise"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2381.115,"endTime":2382.416,"body":"a lot of money,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2383.436,"endTime":2386.795,"body":"and they provide, you know, they provide wonderful services"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2387.315,"endTime":2389.476,"body":"for women with unwanted pregnancies."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2390.635,"endTime":2392.976,"body":"That's well said. And in some ways, i- as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2392.976,"endTime":2396.056,"body":"I've reflected on this more, we shouldn't be surprised, in part"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2396.056,"endTime":2396.615,"body":"because"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2397.516,"endTime":2401.436,"body":"while arguably abortions are up since Roe versus Wade,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2401.436,"endTime":2405.556,"body":"interestingly enough, the stats are up. That has surprised me."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2407.056,"endTime":2411.896,"body":"We've seen the shift from surgical abortions to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2411.896,"endTime":2416.135,"body":"abortion pill, and a number of years ago, it was about 50%. It"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2416.135,"endTime":2419.315,"body":"crossed that barrier. Now it's about two-thirds."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2420.235,"endTime":2422.835,"body":"So that's gonna cut down on the revenue"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2423.356,"endTime":2427.335,"body":"and the demand for physical clinics of Planned Parenthood,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2427.335,"endTime":2428.496,"body":"so it makes sense"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2429.036,"endTime":2431.456,"body":"that they would start to shut down. Now, Planned Parenthood is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2431.456,"endTime":2434.335,"body":"not going anywhere. If you read what they're doing, they are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2434.335,"endTime":2437.615,"body":"trying to adjust and keep up with the philosophy that they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2437.615,"endTime":2441.356,"body":"had before, like maybe a central hub clinic and offices that are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2441.356,"endTime":2442.195,"body":"in other places,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2442.735,"endTime":2445.695,"body":"online. I mean, they're not going anywhere, which just shows"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2445.695,"endTime":2451.215,"body":"us that the life battle is a long-term one. It's never just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2451.215,"endTime":2454.065,"body":"been about closing Planned Parenthood, but trying to create"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2454.065,"endTime":2458.536,"body":"a culture in which all lives are valued because they bear the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2458.536,"endTime":2462.394,"body":"imago Dei. I read some of these articles, and just one point I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2462.394,"endTime":2463.746,"body":"just have to draw out is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2464.315,"endTime":2467.795,"body":"there's talk in this Time magazine about how Title IX"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2467.795,"endTime":2472.115,"body":"freezes... Title IX freeze widely threatens healthcare"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2472.115,"endTime":2477.496,"body":"access. Now, that healthcare includes abortion, and an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2477.496,"endTime":2482.715,"body":"obvious question is abortion healthcare? Well, let's just ask"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2482.715,"endTime":2487.894,"body":"a basic question. First off, what is healthcare? It's care"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2487.894,"endTime":2491.976,"body":"for the positive benefit of the patient [chuckles] in terms of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2491.976,"endTime":2496.255,"body":"their physical health. When a woman is pregnant, ask any"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2496.255,"endTime":2500.956,"body":"OBGYN, \"How many patients are there?\" And the answer, they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2500.956,"endTime":2505.735,"body":"know, is two. So if healthcare is to care for the benefit of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2505.735,"endTime":2507.096,"body":"the patient or patients,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2507.655,"endTime":2511.635,"body":"and the unborn is a patient, and abortion intentionally ends the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2511.635,"endTime":2514.585,"body":"life of the unborn, not for its health"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2515.115,"endTime":2519.876,"body":"benefit, why do we call it healthcare? And I think the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2519.876,"endTime":2523.976,"body":"obvious answer is that it's not. So as Christians, we need to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2523.976,"endTime":2527.394,"body":"especially discerning to how this language... 'Cause nobody,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2527.394,"endTime":2530.135,"body":"like you said earlier, we don't deny somebody healthcare to help"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2530.135,"endTime":2535.016,"body":"with sexually transmitted diseases or other issues. Like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2535.016,"endTime":2539.635,"body":"our society needs to help people, especially the poor, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2539.635,"endTime":2544.195,"body":"when that is lumped in with abortion, and if they're not the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2544.195,"endTime":2547.876,"body":"same things, that's where we have to hit pause and pay"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2547.876,"endTime":2548.695,"body":"attention to it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2549.556,"endTime":2551.815,"body":"Anything else on that one, Scott, that jumps out?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2551.815,"endTime":2552.735,"body":"Great point on that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2553.471,"endTime":2556.192,"body":"... All right, so here's some questions that we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2556.192,"endTime":2559.911,"body":"have come up, and maybe I'll start with one that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2559.911,"endTime":2563.452,"body":"was a pushback we received a few weeks ago, since it's on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2563.452,"endTime":2564.791,"body":"issue of abortion,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2565.592,"endTime":2568.751,"body":"and I'll read it and get your take on this. It says, \"There"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2568.751,"endTime":2571.251,"body":"was a comment made that some patients need to come to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2571.251,"endTime":2574.152,"body":"emergency department and have surgery to complete their"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2574.152,"endTime":2579.192,"body":"abortion. This is not the case.\" This individual says, \"I've seen"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2579.192,"endTime":2584.831,"body":"over 100,000 patients in my 30 years of emergency medicine, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2584.831,"endTime":2588.592,"body":"have never seen a complication or had to perform any surgery as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2588.592,"endTime":2593.231,"body":"a result of the use of this drug. The methods of data"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2593.231,"endTime":2596.632,"body":"acquisition in the report,\" that we talked about, \"may skew"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2596.632,"endTime":2600.221,"body":"results, as they were based on self-reporting.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2600.911,"endTime":2604.57,"body":"walks through some other differences here, but is this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2604.57,"endTime":2608.911,"body":"individual correct, that that is an overstated effect of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2608.911,"endTime":2610.811,"body":"mifepristone?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2610.811,"endTime":2614.07,"body":"Well, I d- I don't think so. And we have, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2614.07,"endTime":2617.971,"body":"the data set that we s- that we cited when we first"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2617.971,"endTime":2620.791,"body":"aired this piece, you know, three weeks, three or"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2620.791,"endTime":2624.99,"body":"four weeks ago, had to do with a patient population of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2624.99,"endTime":2626.731,"body":"almost 900,000-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2626.731,"endTime":2627.03,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2627.03,"endTime":2629.28,"body":"... Patients, and it wasn't always self-reported. It"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2629.28,"endTime":2630.811,"body":"was reported by the insurance companies,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2631.55,"endTime":2634.112,"body":"in terms of what the outcome was."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2634.771,"endTime":2637.51,"body":"And so, and it was r- you know, rough- it was roughly,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2638.07,"endTime":2640.99,"body":"I forget the figure, but, you know, roughly 10 to 15%"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2641.751,"endTime":2644.711,"body":"of the ca-, maybe more than that, having adverse effects"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2644.711,"endTime":2647.871,"body":"that required some sort of medical follow-up, often"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2647.871,"endTime":2652.53,"body":"surgical. So I think, you know, we can, we can debate the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2652.53,"endTime":2655.592,"body":"data set, and I think part of our difference is we have a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2655.592,"endTime":2658.132,"body":"difference over what the data actually shows."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2658.99,"endTime":2662.112,"body":"So that's, I think, as far as we can go with that. What I,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2662.112,"endTime":2663.351,"body":"what I wanted to comment on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2663.952,"endTime":2667.271,"body":"was the statement that this particular listener made, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2667.271,"endTime":2670.092,"body":"really appreciate the question, but what I wanna-- this is where"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2670.092,"endTime":2671.632,"body":"I wanna push back on the listener."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2671.632,"endTime":2672.311,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2672.311,"endTime":2674.351,"body":"Because he said, \"Also, babies are not viable"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2674.351,"endTime":2677.371,"body":"until 18 to 20 weeks, and only in very, in very few"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2677.371,"endTime":2681.51,"body":"circumstances. Although alive, they have no identity in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2681.51,"endTime":2684.771,"body":"womb.\" And that's not a medical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2685.331,"endTime":2688.49,"body":"point. That's, that's a worldview point. That's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2688.49,"endTime":2689.751,"body":"philosophical point"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2690.271,"endTime":2693.632,"body":"that medicine can't, can't help us with,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2694.152,"endTime":2696.652,"body":"because the Bi- the Bible, I think, is really clear, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2696.652,"endTime":2700.471,"body":"think most embryologists would be, would be equally clear, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2700.471,"endTime":2705.03,"body":"from the mo- from the point that conception is completed, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2705.03,"endTime":2710.251,"body":"have a distinct, a genetic identity from the mother in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2710.251,"endTime":2714.09,"body":"womb, and it is... I mean, in roughly half the cases, you have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2714.09,"endTime":2715.49,"body":"an entity that's a different gender"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2716.291,"endTime":2717.431,"body":"than the mother is."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2717.431,"endTime":2718.09,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2718.09,"endTime":2721.572,"body":"So there are, there are-- this is biologically"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2721.572,"endTime":2724.01,"body":"distinct. Now, if, you know, he's referring to they don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2724.01,"endTime":2725.612,"body":"have an identity as a person-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2726.431,"endTime":2728.99,"body":"... That's a different point, but that's a philosophical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2728.99,"endTime":2729.53,"body":"point, and a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2730.311,"endTime":2734.751,"body":"medicine is completely impotent to make that decision about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2734.751,"endTime":2738.471,"body":"whether the unborn child is a person. And we've made, we've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2738.471,"endTime":2739.99,"body":"made ar- that argument on several-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2739.99,"endTime":2740.152,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2740.152,"endTime":2741.811,"body":"... Several occasions, that we would not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2741.811,"endTime":2745.251,"body":"distinguish between a human being and a person,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2746.751,"endTime":2750.711,"body":"b- in terms of, in terms of the metaphysics of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2751.572,"endTime":2754.192,"body":"Now, he also, he also makes the point that if I id- if we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2754.192,"endTime":2756.952,"body":"identify a fetus as having rights, then this creates a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2756.952,"endTime":2760.391,"body":"slippery slope that could lead to the act of abortion legally"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2760.391,"endTime":2761.99,"body":"equal with murder."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2762.751,"endTime":2765.271,"body":"Well, I think we need to tell the truth about what abortion"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2765.271,"endTime":2768.811,"body":"actually is. Now, you might want not, might want, not wanna use"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2768.811,"endTime":2771.452,"body":"the term murder for that, but there's no doubt"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2772.331,"endTime":2775.871,"body":"that the maxim that abortion stops a beating heart"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2776.612,"endTime":2776.751,"body":"is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2777.49,"endTime":2779.211,"body":"incontrovertibly true."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2780.132,"endTime":2782.851,"body":"Abortion ends the life of an innocent"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2783.452,"endTime":2786.721,"body":"unborn child, an innocent- ... An innocent human being"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2787.51,"endTime":2790.391,"body":"who has done nothing to merit,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2791.371,"endTime":2794.55,"body":"you know, the kind of treatment that he or she is getting. And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2795.271,"endTime":2800.03,"body":"in most cases, in r- in rare cases, the unborn child is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2800.03,"endTime":2804.751,"body":"a threat to the mother's life. Now, take an ectopic pregnancy,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2804.751,"endTime":2807.572,"body":"for example, where the, where the embryo implants in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2807.572,"endTime":2809.01,"body":"fallopian tube and not in the uterus."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2809.01,"endTime":2809.251,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2809.251,"endTime":2810.612,"body":"That's a fatal condition."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2810.612,"endTime":2811.231,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2811.231,"endTime":2813.452,"body":"And I, and so in those cases, in fact, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2813.452,"endTime":2815.911,"body":"you c- you probably can call it healthcare in those cases- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2815.911,"endTime":2817.152,"body":"Because it's, it's-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2817.152,"endTime":2817.202,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2817.202,"endTime":2818.791,"body":"... Tending to the health of the woman."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2818.791,"endTime":2819.311,"body":"That's fair."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2819.311,"endTime":2821.311,"body":"And, and what the physicians are doing there"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2821.311,"endTime":2825.271,"body":"is they are inducing a natural miscarriage, and the reason that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2825.271,"endTime":2828.55,"body":"that's morally justifiable is because if you lose the mother,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2828.55,"endTime":2829.891,"body":"you're gonna lose the baby, too,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2830.811,"endTime":2834.081,"body":"in almost all cases where the mother's life is in danger."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2834.751,"endTime":2837.652,"body":"And so in our view, it's better to save one than none,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2838.391,"endTime":2841.431,"body":"and it's not inconsistent with the sanctity of life."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2842.612,"endTime":2845.351,"body":"And I think, you know, women being charged with abuse if they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2845.351,"endTime":2848.971,"body":"neglect, they smoke, drink, do drugs, fail to seek preterm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2848.971,"endTime":2852.53,"body":"care, all of that, I'm, I'm not sure that... The, the law"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2852.53,"endTime":2857.391,"body":"doesn't necessarily have to reflect every moral issue that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2857.391,"endTime":2860.952,"body":"we have with the way a woman manages a pregnancy. And so I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2860.952,"endTime":2863.391,"body":"don't- I'm not sure the law has to get, necessarily has to get"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2863.391,"endTime":2864.51,"body":"involved in that, although I do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2865.03,"endTime":2867.672,"body":"re- I do remember, we had, we had a neighbor"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2868.632,"endTime":2872.53,"body":"who, she was pregnant, and every week, when we put out the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2872.53,"endTime":2873.211,"body":"recycling"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2873.99,"endTime":2880.652,"body":"bottles, theirs was full of full bottles of hard, like bourbon,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2880.652,"endTime":2883.351,"body":"gin, vodka- [chuckles] ... I mean, I th- and we've, I wanted"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2883.351,"endTime":2885.291,"body":"to say to her, \"What are you drinking?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2885.291,"endTime":2886.251,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2886.251,"endTime":2889.652,"body":"And we did actually inquire about that, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2889.652,"endTime":2892.03,"body":"she sa- and she sort of dismissed it and said, \"Oh, my"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2892.03,"endTime":2895.471,"body":"mom smoked and drank, like crazy while I was pregnant, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2895.471,"endTime":2896.652,"body":"turned out fine.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2896.652,"endTime":2897.112,"body":"Oh, wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2897.112,"endTime":2898.99,"body":"And I didn't, I d- I didn't have the heart to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2898.99,"endTime":2901.572,"body":"actually dispute that notion."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2902.231,"endTime":2902.26,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2902.26,"endTime":2903.49,"body":"[laughing] You're making my point."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2903.49,"endTime":2905.521,"body":"I say, \"Yeah, actually true.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2906.03,"endTime":2909.211,"body":"but I don't think the law... The law does not have to get"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2909.211,"endTime":2911.371,"body":"involved at that, at that level."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2913.09,"endTime":2916.791,"body":"So I, that's where I w- I would push back more on the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2916.791,"endTime":2920.519,"body":"idea that the-... That they have no identity that gives them"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2920.519,"endTime":2920.94,"body":"rights"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2921.5,"endTime":2924.98,"body":"in the womb. I think that's def- that's a, that's a flawed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2924.98,"endTime":2925.759,"body":"metaphysic,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2926.5,"endTime":2930.139,"body":"and it's asking medicine to do more than it's cape-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2930.139,"endTime":2931.36,"body":"qualified to do."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2931.36,"endTime":2933.36,"body":"I think that's fair. V- in a sense, he's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2933.36,"endTime":2937.199,"body":"looking at saying what he thinks is absurd legally, what would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2937.199,"endTime":2941.159,"body":"follow if we grant that the unborn has a certain identity."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2941.159,"endTime":2943.84,"body":"So he's working in reverse, rather than asking the question,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2943.84,"endTime":2948.298,"body":"what is the unborn first? And from the moment of conception,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2948.298,"endTime":2949.199,"body":"it's a living"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2949.84,"endTime":2951.298,"body":"human organism"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2951.88,"endTime":2957.699,"body":"that is a distinct biological entity from the mother. That's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2957.699,"endTime":2960.239,"body":"scientific fact. That's not debatable."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2960.239,"endTime":2961.86,"body":"Every embryology textbook will tell you that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2961.86,"endTime":2964.4,"body":"That's not debatable, and so we gotta start"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2964.4,"endTime":2969.159,"body":"there rather than in some law we may or may not like. But great"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2969.159,"endTime":2971.38,"body":"pushback. There's actually another one here that's on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2971.38,"endTime":2973.4,"body":"issue of abortion [chuckles] Scott. This is a really"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2973.4,"endTime":2976.579,"body":"interesting question. This person wrote in, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2976.579,"endTime":2979.84,"body":"in response, but just with a question to get our take on it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2979.84,"endTime":2983.199,"body":"Says, \"I suspect many Christians would affirm the following- Life"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2983.199,"endTime":2988.059,"body":"begins at conception. Two, infants, including all who die,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2988.059,"endTime":2993.519,"body":"unborn embryos who die, go to heaven. So here's my question."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2993.519,"endTime":2996.019,"body":"Given that many babies die in the womb for reasons both"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2996.019,"endTime":3000.099,"body":"natural and induced, failure to implant, ectopic pregnancy, et"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3000.099,"endTime":3004.318,"body":"cetera, will there be more people in heaven who were never"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3004.318,"endTime":3009.519,"body":"born than people who were born, sinned, and received salvation?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3009.519,"endTime":3013.519,"body":"If this is the case, doesn't this fundamentally change what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3013.519,"endTime":3014.42,"body":"it means to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3015.059,"endTime":3018.139,"body":"human?\" Now, lists a few more things, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3018.759,"endTime":3020.219,"body":"what's your take on this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3020.818,"endTime":3021.44,"body":"argument?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3021.44,"endTime":3023.199,"body":"I think this is irrelevant-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3023.199,"endTime":3023.38,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3023.38,"endTime":3025.0,"body":"... To what it means to be human."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3025.98,"endTime":3030.659,"body":"Because what it means to be human is something ontological,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3030.659,"endTime":3033.38,"body":"that, what we mean by that, it's a part of our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3033.38,"endTime":3036.88,"body":"being, it's a part of our essence of who we are. And if"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3036.88,"endTime":3039.98,"body":"it's true, his, and his premises, I think, are both"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3039.98,"endTime":3043.739,"body":"correct, if not only life, but full personhood begins at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3043.739,"endTime":3047.11,"body":"conception, if that's true, then"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3048.38,"endTime":3050.219,"body":"whatever happens after that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3051.239,"endTime":3055.0,"body":"is irrelevant to what that reality is that we know right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3055.0,"endTime":3059.579,"body":"from conception forward. So it may sound a little bit odd, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3059.579,"endTime":3062.34,"body":"it may be that there will be more people in heaven than"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3063.199,"endTime":3066.298,"body":"who were never born and lived a full adult life. That"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3066.298,"endTime":3070.36,"body":"may be true. But I don't... That's-- we wanna make sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3070.36,"endTime":3072.579,"body":"we're not getting our ontological cart before the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3072.579,"endTime":3073.159,"body":"horse."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3073.159,"endTime":3073.778,"body":"Well said."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3073.778,"endTime":3076.42,"body":"Like, like you, just like you said in the last, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3076.42,"endTime":3077.059,"body":"last one."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3078.119,"endTime":3081.039,"body":"And so if... I don't think... He's right, the statistical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3081.039,"endTime":3084.42,"body":"majority doesn't define what's normative. That's true."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3085.88,"endTime":3089.329,"body":"But, you know, may- you know, and who knows? What, what,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3089.329,"endTime":3093.92,"body":"I don't know what will the experience in eternity be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3093.92,"endTime":3099.4,"body":"for someone who, you know, was aborted- ... In the womb? I, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3099.4,"endTime":3102.619,"body":"know, I don't wanna speculate on that. I don't, neither,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3102.619,"endTime":3106.559,"body":"neither of us know the answer to that. But it may be that there,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3106.559,"endTime":3110.48,"body":"you know, maybe that they have some experience that's different"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3111.079,"endTime":3114.679,"body":"than what we would experience- ... In glory. I just, I just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3114.679,"endTime":3117.619,"body":"don't know the answer to that. But I don't, I don't think that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3118.599,"endTime":3118.798,"body":"just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3119.719,"endTime":3123.039,"body":"j- that possibility, I don't think, changes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3123.719,"endTime":3127.938,"body":"what our ontological view of a person is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3128.48,"endTime":3129.71,"body":"from conception forward."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3130.239,"endTime":3131.719,"body":"That's a great answer. You know, Scott, I've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3131.719,"endTime":3134.9,"body":"actually wanted to make Think Biblically gear for a while,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3134.9,"endTime":3137.92,"body":"shirts, sweatshirts. I think I'm gonna make a Think Biblically"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3137.92,"endTime":3140.559,"body":"shirt and have a quote that says, \"Don't get your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3140.559,"endTime":3144.11,"body":"ontological cart before the horse,\"-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3144.11,"endTime":3144.11,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3144.11,"endTime":3146.94,"body":"... And quote you, and see what looks people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3146.94,"endTime":3150.739,"body":"give, and stop and go, \"What on earth does that mean?\" It just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3150.739,"endTime":3152.34,"body":"might start some conversations."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3152.34,"endTime":3153.099,"body":"Hear, hear."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3153.099,"endTime":3153.92,"body":"But with that said-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3153.92,"endTime":3154.94,"body":"I would wear that shirt. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3154.94,"endTime":3156.219,"body":"[chuckles] You would wear... So we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3156.219,"endTime":3158.199,"body":"sell at least one or maybe give away."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3158.199,"endTime":3158.579,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3158.579,"endTime":3160.739,"body":"If you want one, let us know. We'll make those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3160.739,"endTime":3163.639,"body":"shirts. Bottom line, I agree with you that this doesn't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3163.639,"endTime":3167.099,"body":"change what it means to be human. It might change what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3167.099,"endTime":3170.539,"body":"heaven is like, but then again, or our, not what heaven is like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3170.539,"endTime":3173.298,"body":"our perception of what heaven is like."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3173.298,"endTime":3173.36,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3173.36,"endTime":3175.559,"body":"But there's so many people from the past and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3175.559,"endTime":3179.239,"body":"different cultures and different times, there's so many unknowns"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3179.239,"endTime":3182.099,"body":"anyways, that in a sense, instead of seeing this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3182.099,"endTime":3185.318,"body":"negatively, it could be a positive, beautiful thing, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3185.318,"endTime":3188.38,"body":"think, when seen correctly, but fascinating question."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3188.38,"endTime":3190.84,"body":"Yeah. Great, great question. Really appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3190.84,"endTime":3192.818,"body":"This is one of my favorite questions because it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3192.818,"endTime":3197.579,"body":"says, \"I am 15 years old. I live in England, and I'm encouraged"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3197.579,"endTime":3202.94,"body":"by your podcast.\" Hear, hear, you just made our day. So this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3202.94,"endTime":3205.739,"body":"individual, this young man says... Has a question about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3205.739,"endTime":3209.278,"body":"dating and healthy Christian romantic relationships. \"Do you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3209.278,"endTime":3213.278,"body":"think a romantic relationship adds or has value in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3213.278,"endTime":3217.199,"body":"adolescence? I'm entering my final two years of high school,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3217.199,"endTime":3219.259,"body":"know the level of intensity of these relationships will"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3219.259,"endTime":3222.739,"body":"increase,\" he says, \"with the shifts in masculinity and the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3222.739,"endTime":3227.699,"body":"fact that in my area, only 3% of people say they are Christian.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3227.699,"endTime":3227.71,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3227.71,"endTime":3229.599,"body":"\"It goes without saying that the pool for me at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3229.599,"endTime":3233.9,"body":"this time is small. So I'm looking for some older wisdom on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3233.9,"endTime":3236.96,"body":"this subject.\" Given that he said older, Scott, let me throw"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3236.96,"endTime":3237.0,"body":"this- [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3237.0,"endTime":3239.079,"body":"I knew that was coming. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3239.079,"endTime":3242.099,"body":"I'll throw this one to you. What advice would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3242.099,"endTime":3243.199,"body":"you give?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3243.199,"endTime":3245.778,"body":"Well, I think that romantic relationships do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3245.778,"endTime":3248.858,"body":"add value in adolescence if they are pursued"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3249.44,"endTime":3250.65,"body":"in a healthy way."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3251.858,"endTime":3256.699,"body":"If they don't become obsessive, if they don't become disruptive"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3256.699,"endTime":3259.639,"body":"to the rest of your life, and if they don't involve"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3260.34,"endTime":3261.639,"body":"sexual intimacy."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3263.079,"endTime":3265.679,"body":"I think those are some of the ways that they can go off the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3265.679,"endTime":3269.3,"body":"rails. I do think there are important things that we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3269.3,"endTime":3269.679,"body":"learn"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3270.46,"endTime":3273.969,"body":"by having relationships that may be more than just friends,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3275.46,"endTime":3277.659,"body":"that I think can be really helpful. I think it, I think for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3277.659,"endTime":3280.449,"body":"one, the chances of a, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3281.0,"endTime":3284.735,"body":"a romantic relationship in adolescence-... Becoming"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3284.735,"endTime":3287.005,"body":"something that's permanent, you know, high school sweethearts"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3287.005,"endTime":3291.436,"body":"sort of notwithstanding, I think is relatively rare. I know"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3291.436,"endTime":3292.615,"body":"you're smiling 'cause you're- [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3292.615,"endTime":3292.746,"body":"[laughing] I can't help it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3292.746,"endTime":3294.536,"body":"'Cause you married your high- you married your high"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3294.536,"endTime":3296.076,"body":"school sweetheart. So,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3296.936,"endTime":3299.416,"body":"but [clears throat] I think it can, it can, it- I think it can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3299.416,"endTime":3303.916,"body":"help people mature, it can help them grow up. I think it can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3303.916,"endTime":3308.175,"body":"help them face some of the kinds- ... Of feelings that they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3308.175,"endTime":3310.936,"body":"might, they might not have to face otherwise, that can help"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3310.936,"endTime":3313.675,"body":"them mature. I think it can, it can actually help them face"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3313.675,"endTime":3318.335,"body":"rejection, and do, and do that well in a healthy way. It also"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3318.335,"endTime":3320.536,"body":"can... I mean, it can- they can go off the rails, too. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3320.536,"endTime":3323.516,"body":"if they're sexually involved, then I'd say no,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3324.036,"endTime":3325.996,"body":"then those are not, those would not be of value."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3327.896,"endTime":3331.476,"body":"But that, in general, I w- I wouldn't shy away from them. I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3331.476,"endTime":3334.135,"body":"would- I wouldn't think that my life is any less complete if I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3334.135,"endTime":3338.076,"body":"don't have those. Nothing wrong with you if you don't, or you,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3338.076,"endTime":3341.036,"body":"you know, you're not missing out on something that is essential"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3341.036,"endTime":3345.036,"body":"to growth and maturity. But I do think they are, they can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3345.036,"endTime":3346.516,"body":"be beneficial."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3346.516,"endTime":3348.695,"body":"Okay, fair enough. I would just... I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3348.695,"endTime":3351.835,"body":"that's a great answer. I would say a lot of it depends on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3351.835,"endTime":3355.956,"body":"maturity of the individual. Could there be a 14-year-old who"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3355.956,"endTime":3359.615,"body":"can and an 18-year-old who shouldn't? Yeah, in principle. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3359.615,"endTime":3362.385,"body":"suspect this 15-year-old, if he's listening to it [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3362.385,"endTime":3365.715,"body":"and is encouraged by our podcast, and writes in this, is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3365.715,"endTime":3369.936,"body":"gonna be on the more mature, thoughtful side. So if you have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3369.936,"endTime":3372.795,"body":"the right boundaries... And honestly, I think one of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3372.795,"endTime":3376.456,"body":"best things you could do to this young man is just ask those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3376.456,"endTime":3382.396,"body":"around you who know you and who know this person, and be willing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3382.396,"endTime":3387.215,"body":"to form, is it wise to be in a romantic-type relationship with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3387.215,"endTime":3391.335,"body":"this individual? Because those adults in your life will likely"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3391.335,"endTime":3392.146,"body":"see things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3392.735,"endTime":3393.596,"body":"that you won't."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3394.215,"endTime":3397.956,"body":"But I'd also say, if you don't, I have no reason to think you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3397.956,"endTime":3401.036,"body":"gonna look back and have regrets and say, \"I missed out on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3401.036,"endTime":3403.996,"body":"something for not having a romantic relationship.\" So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3403.996,"endTime":3406.496,"body":"you're probably feeling the pressure from your culture, from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3406.496,"endTime":3410.356,"body":"around you. If you take a longer-term perspective, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3410.356,"endTime":3417.175,"body":"goal of any kind of dating is to find a spouse. That's the goal."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3417.175,"endTime":3420.615,"body":"Not dating this way your last two years in high school and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3420.615,"endTime":3425.275,"body":"just enjoying it, in other ways is not gonna set you back at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3425.275,"endTime":3425.916,"body":"all."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3425.916,"endTime":3427.096,"body":"Now, one other thing to add on this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3427.096,"endTime":3428.516,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3428.516,"endTime":3430.815,"body":"It doesn't mean that those relationships have to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3430.815,"endTime":3431.615,"body":"be exclusive"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3432.896,"endTime":3436.916,"body":"either. I mean, I think you can have relationships with someone"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3436.916,"endTime":3439.985,"body":"that's more than just a friend without it necessarily being"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3439.985,"endTime":3444.235,"body":"exclusive to that one person. So I, you know, you have... Of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3444.235,"endTime":3446.115,"body":"course, you have to be careful about that. I don't want to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3446.115,"endTime":3449.916,"body":"encourage people to do- be irresponsible, but I don't w-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3449.916,"endTime":3451.856,"body":"I wouldn't want our l- our listener to think that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3452.715,"endTime":3456.856,"body":"just because you are involved in relationships that are more than"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3456.856,"endTime":3460.996,"body":"just friends, it automatically and only- ... Has to be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3461.695,"endTime":3462.496,"body":"exclusive."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3462.496,"endTime":3463.056,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3464.315,"endTime":3464.576,"body":"Good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3465.096,"endTime":3468.735,"body":"[exhales] wisdom. All right, so last question for you. This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3468.735,"endTime":3471.936,"body":"person writes in, says, \"I'm a school-based speech-language"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3471.936,"endTime":3472.715,"body":"pathologist."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3473.275,"endTime":3474.456,"body":"Enjoyed our recent,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3475.076,"endTime":3478.356,"body":"podcast with Chris Ralston. He laid a great foundation for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3478.356,"endTime":3481.505,"body":"thinking biblically about disability. I'd like to hear"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3481.505,"endTime":3485.835,"body":"more about applying these ideas to the neurodiversity-affirming"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3485.835,"endTime":3486.445,"body":"movement."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3487.096,"endTime":3489.655,"body":"Specifically, I'd love to hear your thoughts on using"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3489.655,"endTime":3494.635,"body":"identity-first language, autistic person, versus person"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3494.635,"endTime":3496.436,"body":"language, person with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3497.155,"endTime":3497.945,"body":"autism.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3498.675,"endTime":3498.876,"body":"Now,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3499.516,"endTime":3501.135,"body":"there's more that's here-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3501.135,"endTime":3501.255,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3501.255,"endTime":3503.695,"body":"... But what's your sense of this?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3503.695,"endTime":3506.315,"body":"Well, [clears throat] I'm not thrilled"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3506.315,"endTime":3506.775,"body":"about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3507.576,"endTime":3511.235,"body":"using identity-first language for anybody or anything,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3512.215,"endTime":3514.376,"body":"'cause that's not fundamentally who we are."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3515.175,"endTime":3518.315,"body":"I mean, if we're gonna do that, if we're gonna really do that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3518.315,"endTime":3521.755,"body":"then let's, let's do it all the way and say, you know, \"I am an,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3521.755,"endTime":3525.596,"body":"I am a created in the image of God person first,\" or, \"I am an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3525.596,"endTime":3527.335,"body":"in Christ person first,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3527.956,"endTime":3531.436,"body":"before anything else that identifies me.\" I want, I want"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3531.436,"endTime":3534.376,"body":"those things- ... To be fundamental for who I am."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3535.255,"endTime":3535.315,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3535.856,"endTime":3536.885,"body":"I'm not... I mean,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3537.456,"endTime":3540.556,"body":"you know, to be honest, Sean, this is probably not a hill that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3540.556,"endTime":3542.135,"body":"I would die on."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3542.916,"endTime":3547.155,"body":"But, you know, and if it, if it was, if it was seen as something"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3547.155,"endTime":3551.315,"body":"that cut off a relationship with a person, I don't know that I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3551.315,"endTime":3557.235,"body":"would, you know, insist on, person-first language, but I'd"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3557.235,"endTime":3560.735,"body":"be strongly inclined to do that. I'd want to explain to them why"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3561.315,"endTime":3564.215,"body":"I would do that. And again, it gives me an opening to talk"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3564.215,"endTime":3568.496,"body":"about the things that are most fundamental to me as a believer,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3568.496,"endTime":3568.675,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3569.465,"endTime":3573.996,"body":"hopefully for this person as well. So I think there's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3573.996,"endTime":3577.215,"body":"there's benefit in, you know, in,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3578.255,"endTime":3580.896,"body":"person-first language."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3583.715,"endTime":3586.976,"body":"But I, but I've, you know, I'd have to, I'd have to, I'd"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3586.976,"endTime":3590.195,"body":"have to evaluate this on more of a case-by-case basis of whether"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3590.195,"endTime":3592.255,"body":"that's a hill that I would die on."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3592.255,"endTime":3592.456,"body":"That's the-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3592.456,"endTime":3593.436,"body":"Put it that way."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3593.436,"endTime":3595.815,"body":"That's totally fair. I am not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3595.815,"endTime":3599.976,"body":"familiar with the writings and the research on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3599.976,"endTime":3602.775,"body":"neurodiversity-affirming movement, so-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3602.775,"endTime":3603.835,"body":"You didn't know that was a thing?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3603.835,"endTime":3606.735,"body":"I mean, [chuckles] well... So I just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3606.735,"endTime":3609.916,"body":"want to qualify, these are my initial thoughts-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3609.916,"endTime":3609.925,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3609.925,"endTime":3612.376,"body":"... Based on the question, so take it for what it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3612.376,"endTime":3616.416,"body":"is. It, it, for a while there was language... Let me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3616.416,"endTime":3619.195,"body":"take a step back, where it's like we describe a homeless"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3619.195,"endTime":3622.425,"body":"person, and then there was pushback that said, I don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3622.425,"endTime":3624.436,"body":"know, maybe this started in the '90s, I'm guessing, that said,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3624.436,"endTime":3627.815,"body":"\"Well, we're describing the person through the adjective of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3627.815,"endTime":3631.376,"body":"homeless, as if that's the defining characteristic-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3631.376,"endTime":3631.385,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3631.385,"endTime":3635.795,"body":"... Of who they are, or a disabled person."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3635.795,"endTime":3639.376,"body":"You're describing them and their value through the lens of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3639.376,"endTime":3644.452,"body":"disability, or a poor person, as if that's who we are.\"... And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3644.452,"endTime":3647.351,"body":"without affirming political correctness, I think language"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3647.351,"endTime":3650.911,"body":"has power. So there's something to be said, and I'm completely"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3650.911,"endTime":3653.612,"body":"fine with saying, \"Let's have language that still recognizes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3653.612,"endTime":3656.181,"body":"the unique challenge that somebody might have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3656.771,"endTime":3660.172,"body":"without undermining their value.\" Like, language should"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3660.172,"endTime":3663.851,"body":"reflect that in principle. I don't have a problem with it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3663.851,"endTime":3667.532,"body":"What's moved in kind of the social j- in certain social"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3667.532,"endTime":3672.271,"body":"justice circles, as far as I can, tell, is to kind of shift"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3672.271,"endTime":3675.972,"body":"from saying, like, say, \"Blindness or deafness is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3675.972,"endTime":3679.532,"body":"something that I'm lacking.\" I'm not lacking anything by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3679.532,"endTime":3683.891,"body":"blindness or deafness. This is who I was made to be,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3684.612,"endTime":3688.152,"body":"and I think sometimes we've seen that seep into certain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3688.152,"endTime":3692.851,"body":"disability conversations within the church. And my pushback is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3692.851,"endTime":3696.791,"body":"there is a certain normative design that God has that we're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3696.791,"endTime":3701.152,"body":"meant to see, we're meant to hear. Now, when we lack those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3701.152,"endTime":3704.711,"body":"things, we don't have any less value, and as Christians, we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3704.711,"endTime":3707.731,"body":"have to make sure [chuckles] that our language reflects that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3707.731,"endTime":3711.811,"body":"we're not saying this person has less value because of some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3711.811,"endTime":3715.891,"body":"disability that they have. But I don't wanna use language that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3715.891,"endTime":3721.052,"body":"affirms, that this is somehow normative and tied to somebody's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3721.052,"endTime":3725.632,"body":"identity in an identity politics kind of fashion. That's just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3725.632,"endTime":3727.331,"body":"what would give me some pause."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3727.331,"endTime":3730.411,"body":"Yeah, and it s- it sounds to me, Sean, I, and our,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3730.411,"endTime":3733.032,"body":"our listener can correct us if we're wrong on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3733.032,"endTime":3733.172,"body":"this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3733.172,"endTime":3733.181,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3733.181,"endTime":3734.711,"body":"... But it sounds to me like that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3735.351,"endTime":3737.572,"body":"that's, that identity politics"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3738.291,"endTime":3740.771,"body":"ideology is what's driving this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3741.512,"endTime":3741.711,"body":"uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3741.711,"endTime":3742.442,"body":"I think that's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3742.442,"endTime":3743.572,"body":"... In this particular situation. If we're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3743.572,"endTime":3747.791,"body":"wrong about that, please feel free to correct us on that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3747.791,"endTime":3749.391,"body":"And by the way, at the end it says, \"I'd love to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3749.391,"endTime":3751.132,"body":"help think through this. I haven't heard a lot of Christian"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3751.132,"endTime":3753.152,"body":"voices addressing this.\" If you're listening right now, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3753.152,"endTime":3756.072,"body":"you're like, \"Oh, I've heard a podcast,\" I have a book, I know"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3756.072,"endTime":3758.931,"body":"an article that addresses this, send it to us, and we will"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3758.931,"endTime":3759.242,"body":"forward it-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3759.972,"endTime":3759.981,"body":"Please"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3759.981,"endTime":3761.972,"body":"... On to the listener to try to help in a way"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3761.972,"endTime":3763.052,"body":"that, Scott, you and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3763.612,"endTime":3765.911,"body":"maybe could not help as much [chuckles] as we'd like to on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3766.452,"endTime":3767.132,"body":"this one."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3767.132,"endTime":3767.152,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3767.152,"endTime":3768.271,"body":"Hey, man, this was really fun."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3768.271,"endTime":3769.262,"body":"Yeah, good stuff."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3769.262,"endTime":3772.19,"body":"Always, always enjoy it. Friends, this has been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3772.19,"endTime":3775.231,"body":"an episode of the podcast Think Biblically- Conversations on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3775.231,"endTime":3777.492,"body":"Faith and Culture, brought to you by Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3777.492,"endTime":3781.911,"body":"Theology, Biola University. We'd love to have you join us either"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3781.911,"endTime":3785.271,"body":"on campus or through distance in one of the many programs we have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3785.271,"endTime":3789.331,"body":"in theology, Bible, spiritual formation, marriage and family,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3789.331,"endTime":3793.472,"body":"apologetics, and so on. And also, let me just pause. If"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3793.472,"endTime":3796.972,"body":"you've been listening to and benefiting from the podcast,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3796.972,"endTime":3800.612,"body":"would you please take a moment and give us a rating on your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3800.612,"endTime":3804.952,"body":"podcast app? Seriously, every rating helps, just in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3804.952,"endTime":3809.411,"body":"analytics, to reach more people, to help them think biblically."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3809.411,"endTime":3812.172,"body":"Send us your comments and/or questions to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3812.172,"endTime":3817.431,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. We'll see you Tuesday when our regular"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3817.431,"endTime":3819.952,"body":"episode airs, and in the meantime, remember to think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3819.952,"endTime":3830.251,"body":"biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}