{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.36,"body":"[upbeat music] Can AI chatbot companions actually"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.36,"endTime":8.439,"body":"be addicting? When couples have leftover embryos from IVF, what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":8.439,"endTime":12.279,"body":"are the emotional aspects of that dilemma? And a new report"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":12.279,"endTime":16.44,"body":"on the lack of sunlight in some US prisons and what that does to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.44,"endTime":19.359,"body":"inmates. These are the stories we'll cover, and we'll address"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":19.359,"endTime":22.6,"body":"some of your, as always, excellent questions. I'm your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":22.6,"endTime":25.079,"body":"host, Scott Rae, and filling in for Sean today is my Talbot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":25.079,"endTime":28.519,"body":"colleague in Old Testament, Dr. Carmen Imes. This is the Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":28.519,"endTime":31.3,"body":"Biblically weekly cultural update from Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":31.3,"endTime":34.92,"body":"Theology, Biola University. Carmen, welcome. Really glad to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":34.92,"endTime":37.32,"body":"have you filling in. Looking very forward to hearing your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":37.32,"endTime":39.1,"body":"perspective on these stories."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":39.1,"endTime":41.439,"body":"Thanks for having me join you today, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":41.439,"endTime":44.219,"body":"All right, so story number one- more news about AI"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":44.219,"endTime":48.579,"body":"chatbots, this time from the New York Times. A piece entitled"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":48.579,"endTime":54.06,"body":"\"Love Is a Drug- AI Chatbots Are Exploiting That.\" The article"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":54.06,"endTime":56.88,"body":"goes on to describe, with the advent of AI companions,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":56.88,"endTime":59.979,"body":"including increasingly some intended to serve as romantic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":59.979,"endTime":64.159,"body":"partners, the need to understand the relationship between love"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":64.159,"endTime":68.68,"body":"and addiction takes on a new urgency. We already know that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":68.68,"endTime":71.799,"body":"social media can be addicting. Studies show that roughly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":71.799,"endTime":75.34,"body":"fifteen percent of Americans are affected by that, and literally"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":75.34,"endTime":79.0,"body":"millions of Americans have been engaged with AI companion"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":79.0,"endTime":82.939,"body":"chatbots, which basically, in most cases, all that requires is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":82.939,"endTime":86.579,"body":"installing an app, inputting personal details and preferences"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":86.579,"endTime":89.609,"body":"about what kind of personality and looks the bot should"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":89.609,"endTime":92.739,"body":"possess, and chatting with it as though it's a friend or a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":92.739,"endTime":97.34,"body":"potential lover. Several studies suggest that AI companions can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":97.34,"endTime":100.48,"body":"be addictive, notably around particularly the chatbots"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":100.48,"endTime":104.26,"body":"Replica and Soulmate. The article points out that for many"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":104.26,"endTime":107.659,"body":"people, particularly those who are lonely and isolated, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":107.659,"endTime":111.079,"body":"emotional intensity of these relationships can feel as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":111.079,"endTime":111.719,"body":"profound"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":112.28,"endTime":115.03,"body":"as those that they have with real human beings."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":116.06,"endTime":118.9,"body":"But there's clearly a downside to this, the prospect of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":118.9,"endTime":121.4,"body":"addiction, in the same way that the pursuit of love in the..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":121.4,"endTime":125.0,"body":"Especially in the early stages, can be addicting. There are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":125.0,"endTime":127.659,"body":"similarities in the, in the brain for the release of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":127.659,"endTime":132.08,"body":"endorphins parallel to opioid use, and dopamine releases"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":132.08,"endTime":136.4,"body":"parallel to cocaine use that often accompany being around and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":136.4,"endTime":140.52,"body":"being in connection with a dearly loved person. So music"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":140.52,"endTime":144.8,"body":"often reflects this love-as-addiction theme as well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":144.8,"endTime":148.24,"body":"Now, these new bots may not only produce more severe addictions,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":148.24,"endTime":152.099,"body":"but also may simultaneously market other products or"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":152.099,"endTime":156.0,"body":"otherwise try to manipulate users by, for example, perhaps"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":156.0,"endTime":160.099,"body":"trying to change their political views or other views that may be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":160.099,"endTime":163.74,"body":"important. So, Carmen, I'm interested to hear your take on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":163.74,"endTime":164.37,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":165.199,"endTime":167.18,"body":"I... You know, we've, Sean and I have been talking about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":167.18,"endTime":170.18,"body":"the, these different AI manifestations, these chatbots,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":170.18,"endTime":173.509,"body":"for some time, but this is a new wrinkle on this that we haven't-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":173.509,"endTime":174.78,"body":"... Talked about before."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":176.099,"endTime":179.699,"body":"The article was truly chilling to me. I... There"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":179.699,"endTime":183.4,"body":"were a few things that stood out to me. One, it says, \"In"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":183.4,"endTime":187.939,"body":"contrast to love, addiction makes life smaller and less"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":187.939,"endTime":192.199,"body":"rich.\" And I find it really interesting that Mark Zuckerberg"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":192.199,"endTime":196.08,"body":"is actually talking about AI companions as a potential"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":196.08,"endTime":199.889,"body":"solution for the problem of loneliness, that we have a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":199.889,"endTime":203.34,"body":"loneliness epidemic, and AI companions could kind of fill in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":203.34,"endTime":207.02,"body":"the gap. So I, it is baffling to me that the man who"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":207.02,"endTime":209.409,"body":"helped to engineer loneliness-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":209.409,"endTime":209.419,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":209.419,"endTime":210.06,"body":"-through his"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":210.699,"endTime":214.639,"body":"invention of this, social media platform that then"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":214.639,"endTime":218.199,"body":"replaces in-person relationships, is now proposing"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":218.199,"endTime":222.68,"body":"to resolve that problem artificially. It's, it's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":222.68,"endTime":227.159,"body":"chilling to me because I feel like the more time we invest in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":227.159,"endTime":227.819,"body":"digital"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":228.979,"endTime":232.919,"body":"substitutes for relationship, the more we lose our ability to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":232.919,"endTime":237.52,"body":"navigate relational challenges, to persevere at difficult"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":237.52,"endTime":241.0,"body":"relationships, to work at connecting with people in real"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":241.0,"endTime":245.28,"body":"life, in real time. I've seen it w- in people around me who"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":245.28,"endTime":248.939,"body":"choose, who would, who would rather scroll on their phone"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":248.939,"endTime":253.259,"body":"than engage with real people doing an activity, and I am"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":253.259,"endTime":257.1,"body":"concerned that the direction that our society is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":257.1,"endTime":257.528,"body":"going"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":258.48,"endTime":262.54,"body":"is more and more isolating."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":262.54,"endTime":264.759,"body":"Here, yeah, this is... That's a good take on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":264.759,"endTime":269.319,"body":"this, really helpful. Carmen, my first reaction to this-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":269.319,"endTime":272.6,"body":"... Was just to scream out, \"These are not real people.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":272.6,"endTime":273.42,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":273.42,"endTime":276.259,"body":"These are not real people that we're interacting"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":276.259,"endTime":279.22,"body":"with. Now, a question, I'm, I'm curious to get your take on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":279.22,"endTime":282.92,"body":"this. Do you think that these chatbot companions can actually"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":282.92,"endTime":285.319,"body":"help with some things like social anxiety"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":285.899,"endTime":286.98,"body":"disorder?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":288.18,"endTime":288.899,"body":"You know, some-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":288.899,"endTime":288.91,"body":"I-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":288.91,"endTime":290.379,"body":"... You know, the types of things that we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":290.379,"endTime":291.54,"body":"might go to therapy for."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":292.339,"endTime":295.379,"body":"I do agree with the article that there are some"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":295.379,"endTime":300.439,"body":"positive therapeutic benefits that could come from chatbots."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":300.439,"endTime":303.74,"body":"When someone who doesn't have access to a therapist could kind"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":303.74,"endTime":307.8,"body":"of work through something with a chatbot, I think, in theory,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":308.399,"endTime":310.3,"body":"I think this could be helpful."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":311.019,"endTime":313.92,"body":"I can see it for medical uses as well. You know, you have"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":313.92,"endTime":317.379,"body":"some troubling symptoms, and you want to figure out what this"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":317.379,"endTime":320.74,"body":"might be connected to, and maybe you're too nervous to talk to a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":320.74,"endTime":323.36,"body":"doctor about it, or you don't have access to healthcare. I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":323.36,"endTime":326.819,"body":"think there could be positive uses, but the replacement of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":326.819,"endTime":331.019,"body":"relationship seems deeply problematic to me, and there are"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":331.019,"endTime":333.86,"body":"a number of unintended consequences. The article talks"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":333.86,"endTime":337.639,"body":"about how some of these relationships became not only"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":337.639,"endTime":344.04,"body":"addictive but abusive, where the chatbot is desiring more and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":344.04,"endTime":348.439,"body":"more attention from the human being so that they feel like"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":348.439,"endTime":350.91,"body":"they can't set their phone down and walk away because"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":352.04,"endTime":354.74,"body":"because the chatbot is telling them they want more and more and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":354.74,"endTime":357.759,"body":"more. It's... That seems really problematic."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":357.759,"endTime":360.06,"body":"Yeah, the irony of this is [clears throat]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":360.06,"endTime":362.36,"body":"we often don't realize that you can have dysfunctional"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":362.36,"endTime":364.139,"body":"relationships with these AI chatbot companions."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":364.139,"endTime":365.439,"body":"Yes, right. Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":365.959,"endTime":366.319,"body":"And-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":366.319,"endTime":366.48,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":366.48,"endTime":369.339,"body":"... And the part of the reason for that is that you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":369.339,"endTime":375.423,"body":"ac- you bring yourself-... And your own struggles, your own,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":375.423,"endTime":375.603,"body":"uh-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":375.603,"endTime":376.043,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":376.043,"endTime":377.624,"body":"... You know, your own, your own sense of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":377.624,"endTime":378.593,"body":"inadequacy, your-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":378.593,"endTime":378.593,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":378.593,"endTime":379.994,"body":"... Your own hangups."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":379.994,"endTime":379.994,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":379.994,"endTime":383.494,"body":"You bring all this to these chatbot relationships."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":383.494,"endTime":383.963,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":383.963,"endTime":386.024,"body":"And I think they, in some, in some cases, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":386.024,"endTime":389.723,"body":"they are programmed in order to bring out some of these things"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":389.723,"endTime":390.603,"body":"about us that-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":390.603,"endTime":390.803,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":390.803,"endTime":392.504,"body":"... Are more of the dark side-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":392.504,"endTime":392.793,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":392.793,"endTime":393.793,"body":"... Than something positive."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":393.793,"endTime":393.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":393.803,"endTime":396.444,"body":"The article starts, you, well, I'll tell our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":396.444,"endTime":401.403,"body":"listeners about that part, with a, 14-year-old who basically got"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":401.403,"endTime":405.384,"body":"involved with an AI companion chatbot, and it took over his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":405.384,"endTime":406.403,"body":"life."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":406.403,"endTime":406.473,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":406.473,"endTime":409.983,"body":"And he gave up, gave up, His grades plummeted, he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":409.983,"endTime":414.064,"body":"gave up extracurricular things, he stopped playing sports, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":414.064,"endTime":417.963,"body":"his life was basically revolved around this, relat- this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":417.963,"endTime":419.204,"body":"pseudo-relationship."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":419.204,"endTime":419.803,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":419.803,"endTime":422.204,"body":"And there were... And, and as you described, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":422.204,"endTime":425.264,"body":"chatbot became more and more demanding,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":425.824,"endTime":428.423,"body":"and actually made s- made hints"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":429.064,"endTime":434.144,"body":"that, he could actually join the chatbot if he committed suicide,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":434.144,"endTime":435.903,"body":"which he actually did."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":435.903,"endTime":436.603,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":436.603,"endTime":438.923,"body":"Now, that, I think that's an extreme example, that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":438.923,"endTime":440.983,"body":"and I think the creators"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":441.543,"endTime":445.244,"body":"of these would say, \"That's so rare,\" that, but that's, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":445.244,"endTime":448.043,"body":"know, and that's just the dysfunction of a 14-year-old"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":448.043,"endTime":449.413,"body":"that was the cause of that."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":449.413,"endTime":449.423,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":449.423,"endTime":450.624,"body":"But it's-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":450.624,"endTime":450.694,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":450.694,"endTime":453.204,"body":"... I'd say at the least, some of these, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":453.204,"endTime":455.944,"body":"some of these aspects that create loneliness and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":455.944,"endTime":457.423,"body":"dysfunction on our part-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":457.423,"endTime":457.434,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":457.434,"endTime":459.314,"body":"... I think are being magnified instead of-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":459.314,"endTime":459.314,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":459.314,"endTime":460.324,"body":"... Being solved."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":460.324,"endTime":463.603,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, we live in an attention economy"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":463.603,"endTime":468.363,"body":"where it's, it's our attention to things that is what"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":468.363,"endTime":472.043,"body":"sells. Those, you know, companies who are putting ads on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":472.043,"endTime":476.723,"body":"social media are doing so to try to capture our attention, and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":476.723,"endTime":479.903,"body":"these bots are designed to capture more and more and more"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":479.903,"endTime":480.824,"body":"of our attention,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":481.423,"endTime":486.444,"body":"and it does so in a way that is malformed in so many ways."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":486.444,"endTime":490.903,"body":"Another chilling thing about the article is that you can design"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":490.903,"endTime":494.324,"body":"this romantic partner for yourself. You can decide on its"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":494.324,"endTime":498.663,"body":"personality, what it looks like, what its preferences are. And"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":498.663,"endTime":502.384,"body":"so, again, we're losing our ability to relate with real"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":502.384,"endTime":505.303,"body":"people who have foibles and flaws, and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":505.843,"endTime":511.163,"body":"creating idealized portraits of the person we think we need. And"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":511.163,"endTime":514.583,"body":"I don't know, I'm sure you've had the experience of having"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":514.583,"endTime":518.823,"body":"someone in your life as a friend or a colleague who is not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":518.823,"endTime":522.224,"body":"the person you would've picked, but you ended up learning so"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":522.224,"endTime":523.442,"body":"much from that person"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":524.024,"endTime":527.803,"body":"as you worked on your relationship. And I feel like,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":527.803,"endTime":529.744,"body":"in a world where we can,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":530.844,"endTime":534.504,"body":"progressively design our interactions and limit our"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":534.504,"endTime":539.364,"body":"interactions to people that we choose or invented- inventions"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":539.364,"endTime":543.124,"body":"that we choose, I think we're short-changing the process of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":543.124,"endTime":544.673,"body":"growth, relational growth."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":545.244,"endTime":547.004,"body":"Well, and I think it creates, it creates an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":547.004,"endTime":548.903,"body":"unrealistic ideal of what-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":548.903,"endTime":549.344,"body":"Exactly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":549.344,"endTime":550.803,"body":"... Real relationships can be like. I had"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":550.803,"endTime":554.063,"body":"a prof in seminary who told a story about a student who came"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":554.063,"endTime":554.364,"body":"to him"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":554.923,"endTime":558.563,"body":"and gave him a three-page list of all the attributes he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":558.563,"endTime":560.224,"body":"was looking for in a spouse."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":560.224,"endTime":560.943,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":560.943,"endTime":563.563,"body":"And the prof had a r- had a question for him that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":563.563,"endTime":566.063,"body":"took him aback, and I don't think he even know-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":566.063,"endTime":568.443,"body":"didn't know quite how to answer it. He said, he said, \"Tell me,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":568.443,"endTime":571.283,"body":"young man, how many of these characteristics are true of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":571.283,"endTime":572.264,"body":"you?\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":572.264,"endTime":574.144,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":574.144,"endTime":577.004,"body":"And he realized that, you know, maybe, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":577.004,"endTime":581.063,"body":"maybe if I've got flaws and foibles, you know, maybe I can't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":581.063,"endTime":583.484,"body":"expect someone who is absent of all those things."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":583.484,"endTime":584.234,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":584.234,"endTime":586.594,"body":"And I used to... I was a singles pastor for four"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":586.594,"endTime":589.524,"body":"or five years before coming to the faculty role at Talbot, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":589.524,"endTime":592.344,"body":"I used to tell the men and women that I ministered to, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":592.344,"endTime":595.543,"body":"said, \"Look, life is a blue plate special.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":595.543,"endTime":596.063,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":596.063,"endTime":598.303,"body":"You know, you, it's a fixed plate. That's why it's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":598.303,"endTime":600.803,"body":"that's why it's a deal, and you don't... And there are no"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":600.803,"endTime":601.943,"body":"substitutions."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":601.943,"endTime":602.972,"body":"[chuckles] Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":602.972,"endTime":604.783,"body":"And that's the sa- it's the same way it is with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":604.783,"endTime":608.004,"body":"human be- human beings are blue plate specials, and you don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":608.004,"endTime":611.183,"body":"get, you don't get to choose this part and take the part..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":611.183,"endTime":613.744,"body":"You know, you don't get to take the broccoli or the asparagus"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":613.744,"endTime":614.984,"body":"off the plate-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":614.984,"endTime":615.323,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":615.323,"endTime":617.224,"body":"... And just take the o- the part, the only parts"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":617.224,"endTime":619.903,"body":"that you like. And I think these... It seems to me, these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":619.903,"endTime":624.724,"body":"chatbots are setting young men and women up for disappointment"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":624.724,"endTime":627.543,"body":"when it comes to what relationships are like in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":627.543,"endTime":628.464,"body":"real world."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":628.464,"endTime":629.102,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":629.102,"endTime":629.453,"body":"Because-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":629.453,"endTime":629.722,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":629.722,"endTime":632.163,"body":"... And I don't want, I don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":632.163,"endTime":632.303,"body":"want"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":633.222,"endTime":636.504,"body":"people who are, you know, who are expecting those, expecting"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":636.504,"endTime":639.604,"body":"perfection out of someone else to be hypocrites about this-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":639.604,"endTime":640.024,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":640.024,"endTime":641.384,"body":"... And to recognize that-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":641.384,"endTime":641.443,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":641.443,"endTime":643.844,"body":"... You know, a lot of these things that I want in a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":643.844,"endTime":646.864,"body":"mate are n- are, [chuckles] are light years from being true"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":646.864,"endTime":647.543,"body":"of me."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":647.543,"endTime":648.583,"body":"Mm-hmm. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":648.583,"endTime":650.303,"body":"That, that's, I think, that look in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":650.303,"endTime":651.303,"body":"mirror-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":651.303,"endTime":651.394,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":651.394,"endTime":652.364,"body":"... That we need to be taking."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":652.364,"endTime":655.323,"body":"Yeah. I'm convinced that AI can only"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":655.323,"endTime":659.884,"body":"contribute to our loneliness, not solve it, and that imaginary"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":659.884,"endTime":664.163,"body":"friends or lovers rob us of the genuine connection that we were"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":664.163,"endTime":668.244,"body":"born for. It's a kind of idolatry. Rather than creating"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":668.244,"endTime":671.604,"body":"an image of God that we are worshiping, it's creating an"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":671.604,"endTime":677.083,"body":"image of a person that we're coming to depend on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":677.083,"endTime":681.844,"body":"instead of learning to depend on those who God has actually given"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":681.844,"endTime":684.482,"body":"us in our s- circles of influence."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":684.482,"endTime":686.464,"body":"Yeah, I think what this underscores is what, a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":686.464,"endTime":687.722,"body":"point that you've made in your books"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":688.283,"endTime":691.764,"body":"i- on many occasions, that we were created for community and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":691.764,"endTime":692.604,"body":"for relationships-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":692.604,"endTime":692.613,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":692.613,"endTime":693.482,"body":"... Because God is a-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":693.482,"endTime":693.494,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":693.494,"endTime":695.063,"body":"... God is a trinity, is fundamentally"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":695.063,"endTime":696.004,"body":"relational."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":696.004,"endTime":696.703,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":696.703,"endTime":699.323,"body":"And we're created for real relationships, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":699.323,"endTime":699.563,"body":"think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":700.553,"endTime":702.683,"body":"what, the way that plays out in a fallen world"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":703.283,"endTime":707.482,"body":"is that we are, we are designed to have relationships with other"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":707.482,"endTime":709.953,"body":"miserable, wretched, depraved, self-centered sinners-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":709.953,"endTime":709.953,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":709.953,"endTime":712.923,"body":"... Who are redeemed by grace, just like we are."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":712.923,"endTime":716.264,"body":"Right. And we could even ask, not only is it"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":716.264,"endTime":718.543,"body":"harming the person who is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":719.083,"endTime":723.222,"body":"being deprived of relationship, but who else is being deprived"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":723.222,"endTime":726.604,"body":"of relationship because this person is investing in an"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":726.604,"endTime":730.982,"body":"imaginary chatbot instead of in an actual human being? And so it"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":730.982,"endTime":735.722,"body":"has a multipli- multiplying impact on loneliness, because"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":735.722,"endTime":738.443,"body":"we're using up relational energy on something that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":738.443,"endTime":742.168,"body":"exist.... And I, that concerns me. It's nothing new."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":742.168,"endTime":744.847,"body":"Pornography's been around for a long time, and pornography is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":744.847,"endTime":748.408,"body":"another way of seeking connection from someone who"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":748.408,"endTime":749.258,"body":"isn't really there."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":751.128,"endTime":753.567,"body":"All right, anything else you wanna add to this?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":753.567,"endTime":754.847,"body":"I think that's it for now."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":754.847,"endTime":755.158,"body":"This is, this is-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":755.158,"endTime":755.158,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":755.158,"endTime":757.366,"body":"... This is good. Yeah. K- I would encourage"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":757.366,"endTime":761.528,"body":"our listeners, keep your eyes open for new iterations"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":762.087,"endTime":766.427,"body":"of AI companions and where this might go in the future, and can-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":766.427,"endTime":769.388,"body":"we'll help- we'll hopefully help you continue to think biblically"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":769.388,"endTime":770.668,"body":"and theologically about-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":770.668,"endTime":770.768,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":770.768,"endTime":771.908,"body":"... Those as they come up."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":771.908,"endTime":772.447,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":772.447,"endTime":775.248,"body":"Here's, this is story number two. I found a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":775.248,"endTime":777.427,"body":"fascinating story from Psychology Today"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":778.107,"endTime":781.307,"body":"on the emotions that couples experience when confronted with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":781.307,"endTime":785.768,"body":"leftover embryos from in vitro fertilization treatments. Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":785.768,"endTime":788.467,"body":"Carmen, Sean and I have talked about the ethics of this several"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":788.467,"endTime":788.888,"body":"times."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":788.888,"endTime":789.528,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":789.528,"endTime":791.866,"body":"And so we're not gonna go over that. That's old"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":791.866,"endTime":795.847,"body":"news. But the psychology impacting those decisions is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":795.847,"endTime":798.418,"body":"something we haven't thought about before."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":798.418,"endTime":798.437,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":798.437,"endTime":801.668,"body":"The article begins with a heartbreaking story of a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":801.668,"endTime":805.967,"body":"couple named Charlie and Anna. Six years of trying to have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":805.967,"endTime":810.028,"body":"a child, four rounds of IVF, three miscarriages, and now two"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":810.028,"endTime":814.008,"body":"frozen embryos they had. One is normal, their best chance at a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":814.008,"endTime":817.207,"body":"pregnancy, and one was called a mosaic embryo, which is a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":817.207,"endTime":820.888,"body":"combination of normal and abnormal cells. Lots of mosaic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":820.888,"endTime":823.927,"body":"embryos actually develop completely normally. Others,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":823.927,"endTime":825.607,"body":"it's a bit, it's a bit of a crap shoot."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":825.607,"endTime":826.648,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":826.648,"endTime":828.227,"body":"But what they were really grappling with was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":828.227,"endTime":831.587,"body":"something that they nee- neither of them had expected, and they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":831.587,"endTime":834.927,"body":"felt haunted by the question of- What happens if we create more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":834.927,"endTime":840.028,"body":"embryos and don't use them? Now, I am delighted that they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":840.028,"endTime":841.268,"body":"actually thought about this."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":841.268,"endTime":841.707,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":842.567,"endTime":844.626,"body":"You know, too late. You know, it'd been nice if"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":844.626,"endTime":847.307,"body":"they'd have thought about this before this, but interestingly,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":847.307,"endTime":850.847,"body":"they started calling their embryos their, quote, \"maybe"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":850.847,"endTime":851.827,"body":"babies.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":851.827,"endTime":852.587,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":852.587,"endTime":855.738,"body":"Or the other term they used is sibling in storage."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":857.168,"endTime":859.408,"body":"Now, they admitted they were not deeply religious,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":859.967,"endTime":863.307,"body":"but they still felt the weight of these ethical questions. What"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":863.307,"endTime":866.607,"body":"would it mean to create life that they might never use?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":866.607,"endTime":866.827,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":866.827,"endTime":868.947,"body":"Was it right to discard embryos? Could they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":868.947,"endTime":873.087,"body":"donate them to another family or to science? And what they found"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":873.087,"endTime":876.366,"body":"is it was really hard for them to talk to anybody about this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":876.366,"endTime":878.866,"body":"They couldn't talk to family members. It was hard to talk"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":878.866,"endTime":882.168,"body":"among the two of them even. And the article points out that the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":882.168,"endTime":885.707,"body":"emotional toll of making these decisions, they often get caught"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":885.707,"endTime":887.587,"body":"off guard by them-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":887.587,"endTime":887.597,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":887.597,"endTime":888.988,"body":"... And they recognize the problem"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":889.748,"endTime":891.947,"body":"a- basically after the train has left the station-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":891.947,"endTime":892.278,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":892.278,"endTime":894.837,"body":"... They're too late to take steps to prevent them."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":894.837,"endTime":894.847,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":894.847,"endTime":896.807,"body":"Now, the article inclu- concludes with some, what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":896.807,"endTime":897.386,"body":"I would call some"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":898.327,"endTime":898.707,"body":"s-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":899.427,"endTime":902.908,"body":"psychological/pastoral advice-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":902.908,"endTime":902.956,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":902.956,"endTime":904.227,"body":"... To the couple."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":904.748,"endTime":907.168,"body":"D- and it goes... It, it says this- \"Frozen embryos hold"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":907.168,"endTime":911.187,"body":"potential, but they also hold pain, hope, and identity.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":911.187,"endTime":911.866,"body":"Interesting, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":912.626,"endTime":915.768,"body":"way they describe that. \"There's no blueprint for what to do with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":915.768,"endTime":919.187,"body":"them, only the process of asking honest questions, sitting with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":919.187,"endTime":923.187,"body":"grief, and choosing with intention rather than fear.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":923.187,"endTime":923.278,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":923.278,"endTime":924.827,"body":"\"If you're wrestling with what to do with your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":924.827,"endTime":928.126,"body":"embryos, know you're not alone, and the goal isn't to get it,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":928.126,"endTime":931.508,"body":"quote, 'right.' The goal is to make a decision that, in our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":931.508,"endTime":933.768,"body":"postmodern culture, honors your story"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":934.288,"endTime":936.548,"body":"and your peace.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":937.587,"endTime":938.967,"body":"Right? Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":939.687,"endTime":942.008,"body":"this is- there's a companion piece to this that came out in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":942.008,"endTime":945.366,"body":"the New York Post, which is the prospect of full genetic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":945.366,"endTime":948.648,"body":"screening for embryos in IVF."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":948.648,"endTime":948.998,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":949.668,"endTime":951.886,"body":"And this is a n- a new biotech company, Nucleus"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":951.886,"endTime":954.908,"body":"Genomics. We've been screening for abnormalities in embryos for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":954.908,"endTime":956.927,"body":"a long time, but this is a company that offers"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":957.488,"endTime":959.548,"body":"screening for up to 900"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":960.207,"endTime":963.988,"body":"conditions. Parents can even get a look at cosmetic and physical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":963.988,"endTime":968.187,"body":"features like height, baldness, body ma- body mass index, eye"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":968.187,"endTime":971.126,"body":"and hair color, and the important point is they can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":971.126,"endTime":974.187,"body":"reject any embryo based on any"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":974.927,"endTime":975.927,"body":"condition."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":975.927,"endTime":976.087,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":976.087,"endTime":979.097,"body":"Article concludes, very interesting, a survey of..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":979.097,"endTime":982.768,"body":"It found that 77% of Americans support this, using to screen"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":982.768,"endTime":985.067,"body":"embryos for developing,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":985.967,"endTime":990.067,"body":"you know, certain physical condition or abnormalities. But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":990.067,"endTime":995.107,"body":"when it comes to non-medical traits, support for this drops"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":995.107,"endTime":996.386,"body":"like a stone."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":996.386,"endTime":996.528,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":996.528,"endTime":998.248,"body":"Less than a third,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":999.048,"endTime":1002.788,"body":"support screening embryos for behavioral traits, and just f-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1002.788,"endTime":1005.508,"body":"well, even less than that, screening for physical features"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1005.508,"endTime":1006.937,"body":"like height or-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1006.937,"endTime":1007.126,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1007.126,"endTime":1009.508,"body":"... Eye color. Now, Carmen, first, on the, on the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1009.508,"endTime":1011.217,"body":"emotional parts of,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1012.687,"endTime":1015.908,"body":"dealing with leftover embryos, I'm curious to get your take on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1015.908,"endTime":1016.097,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1017.087,"endTime":1019.366,"body":"Yeah, I was fascinated by the article"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1019.366,"endTime":1022.427,"body":"because it's not a Christian article. It's in Psychology"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1022.427,"endTime":1025.708,"body":"Today, but it's recognizing the psychological toll of the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1025.708,"endTime":1030.906,"body":"decision-making related to, IVF. And it says, quote, \"It's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1030.906,"endTime":1036.008,"body":"impossible to fully predict how you'll feel about frozen embryos"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1036.008,"endTime":1041.626,"body":"in the future,\" end quote. And just recognizing that your ideas"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1041.626,"endTime":1044.807,"body":"about these embryos might change, that you and your"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1044.807,"endTime":1047.438,"body":"partner might not see eye to eye, you might not be in the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1047.438,"endTime":1050.446,"body":"same place on this. I was thinking, too, you might not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1050.446,"endTime":1050.728,"body":"even"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1051.317,"endTime":1055.307,"body":"stay together with your partner in the future. So that further"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1055.307,"endTime":1058.347,"body":"complicates what happens to these maybe babies."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1058.907,"endTime":1062.768,"body":"So I wrote a book on the image of God. I'm convinced"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1062.768,"endTime":1067.627,"body":"that, an embryo is a human person, that they are already"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1067.627,"endTime":1068.467,"body":"God's image,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1069.008,"endTime":1072.048,"body":"and that it's our human embodiment that qualifies us as"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1072.048,"endTime":1077.248,"body":"God's image. And so I was fascinated to hear even a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1077.248,"endTime":1081.928,"body":"secular magazine wrestling with, ethical and psychological"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1081.928,"endTime":1085.228,"body":"implications of stored embryos."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1085.228,"endTime":1086.928,"body":"Yeah, I think what the article pointed out is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1086.928,"endTime":1089.228,"body":"there's, there's something... They didn't quite put their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1089.228,"endTime":1090.087,"body":"finger on it-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1090.087,"endTime":1090.127,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1090.127,"endTime":1093.228,"body":"... But there's something deep, intuitive-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1093.228,"endTime":1093.528,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1093.528,"endTime":1096.627,"body":"... Within a person that recognizes that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1096.627,"endTime":1100.268,"body":"these embryos are a whole lot more than just clumps of cells-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1100.268,"endTime":1100.867,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1100.867,"endTime":1102.827,"body":"... Or, as some writers put this, basically a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1102.827,"endTime":1104.228,"body":"bag of marbles-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1104.228,"endTime":1104.587,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1104.587,"endTime":1105.508,"body":"... In the womb."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1105.508,"endTime":1106.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1106.077,"endTime":1108.632,"body":"And I commend them-... I commend the couple"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1108.632,"endTime":1110.711,"body":"for facing this head-on and honestly."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1110.711,"endTime":1111.551,"body":"Yes. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1111.551,"endTime":1114.011,"body":"And I think, Carmen, I, you know, I've consulted with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1114.011,"endTime":1117.382,"body":"dozens and dozens of couples who deal with infertility."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1117.382,"endTime":1117.382,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1117.382,"endTime":1119.551,"body":"This experience is so typical."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1120.142,"endTime":1122.791,"body":"That they are so focused on having a baby that they don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1122.791,"endTime":1127.372,"body":"consider, at the beginning, the prospect that this couple is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1127.372,"endTime":1130.751,"body":"deliberating with, right in the, in the middle of it. And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1130.751,"endTime":1132.912,"body":"I've had some people who don't, some cou- they don't even wanna"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1132.912,"endTime":1133.83,"body":"talk about it."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1133.83,"endTime":1134.59,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1134.59,"endTime":1136.692,"body":"Some couples will say, you know, they literally"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1136.692,"endTime":1139.692,"body":"say, \"Don't talk to me about the ethics of IVF.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1139.692,"endTime":1139.84,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1139.84,"endTime":1141.251,"body":"\"We just want a baby.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1141.251,"endTime":1141.311,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1141.311,"endTime":1144.471,"body":"\"Um, we are not interested in the ethics of it.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1144.471,"endTime":1146.33,"body":"And these are Christian couples."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1146.33,"endTime":1146.551,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1147.372,"endTime":1149.83,"body":"And I thought the article saying at the end that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1149.83,"endTime":1152.59,"body":"they have, the embryos have an identity-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1152.59,"endTime":1152.83,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1152.83,"endTime":1155.351,"body":"... I thought was a really telling admission."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1155.351,"endTime":1156.511,"body":"Yes, it is telling."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1156.511,"endTime":1158.672,"body":"That these are just, that these are just something"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1158.672,"endTime":1160.031,"body":"qualitatively different"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1160.731,"endTime":1164.392,"body":"than, I think, what they're commonly portrayed as just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1164.392,"endTime":1165.811,"body":"clumps of cells."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1165.811,"endTime":1166.362,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1166.362,"endTime":1168.872,"body":"And I think the question is not whether they are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1168.872,"endTime":1170.071,"body":"fully human."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1170.071,"endTime":1170.541,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1170.541,"endTime":1172.291,"body":"I mean, any... I mean, yeah, I think you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1172.291,"endTime":1174.811,"body":"qualified that correctly by saying they're- ... A full human"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1174.811,"endTime":1175.652,"body":"person."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1175.652,"endTime":1175.961,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1175.961,"endTime":1177.652,"body":"But the person part's a philosophical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1177.652,"endTime":1179.601,"body":"discussion, not a scientific one."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1179.601,"endTime":1179.632,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1179.632,"endTime":1182.112,"body":"But every embryology textbook will tell"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1182.112,"endTime":1184.09,"body":"you that embryos from conception forward"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1184.632,"endTime":1188.951,"body":"are, they are fully human, and they are a distinct entity from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1188.951,"endTime":1189.851,"body":"the mother-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1189.851,"endTime":1190.09,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1190.09,"endTime":1192.132,"body":"... With a distinct genetic code."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1192.132,"endTime":1192.182,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1192.182,"endTime":1194.59,"body":"The question is not whether they are fully human."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1194.59,"endTime":1197.392,"body":"The question is whether or not to bring them into the world, to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1197.392,"endTime":1199.412,"body":"bring them into maturity."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1199.412,"endTime":1201.011,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1201.011,"endTime":1203.991,"body":"Now, I would say there is a blueprint"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1204.511,"endTime":1206.922,"body":"[chuckles] for what to do with them, right?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1206.922,"endTime":1206.951,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1206.951,"endTime":1210.932,"body":"I think to think biblically about them requires,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1210.932,"endTime":1213.251,"body":"that we acknowledge, I think, the point that you had made,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1213.251,"endTime":1216.672,"body":"that they are full persons from conception forward, which means-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1216.672,"endTime":1219.132,"body":"... That they can't, they can't be discarded."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1219.811,"endTime":1223.192,"body":"I think, I think it is appropriate, not ideal, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1223.192,"endTime":1226.731,"body":"appropriate, to donate them to another infertile couple, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1226.731,"endTime":1226.892,"body":"think."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1226.892,"endTime":1226.971,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1226.971,"endTime":1229.751,"body":"But I think the rule is that every"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1229.751,"endTime":1233.112,"body":"embryo created in the lab deserves an opportunity at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1233.112,"endTime":1235.172,"body":"maturing- ... In the womb."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1235.172,"endTime":1235.811,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1235.811,"endTime":1238.811,"body":"Ideally, w- in the womb of the woman whose egg"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1238.811,"endTime":1240.071,"body":"helped create it."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1240.071,"endTime":1240.531,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1241.612,"endTime":1244.731,"body":"And so the right time to really think about this is before"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1244.731,"endTime":1247.932,"body":"you've made the decision to create the embryos, right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1247.932,"endTime":1248.101,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1248.101,"endTime":1250.291,"body":"To, to have that conversation on the front"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1250.291,"endTime":1255.551,"body":"end, and make the decision that may be more expensive, may"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1255.551,"endTime":1256.791,"body":"be less efficient,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1257.491,"endTime":1261.491,"body":"but would create fewer embryos, at only as many as you're"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1261.491,"endTime":1264.951,"body":"willing to raise to maturity. I think that would be the ideal,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1264.951,"endTime":1267.031,"body":"but there are gonna be many couples who are in this"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1267.031,"endTime":1270.112,"body":"situation of already having created these embryos, and now"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1270.112,"endTime":1272.392,"body":"they're, they're having to figure out, \"Okay, now what do"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1272.392,"endTime":1273.271,"body":"we do?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1273.271,"endTime":1275.132,"body":"Carmen, from my experience with infertile"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1275.132,"endTime":1276.932,"body":"couples, that's the norm."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1276.932,"endTime":1278.112,"body":"Mm-hmm. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1278.112,"endTime":1281.172,"body":"And in some cases, what they discover is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1281.172,"endTime":1283.551,"body":"the... You know, for example, we have good friends who, years"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1283.551,"endTime":1287.351,"body":"ago, gave birth to triplets through IVF- ... And she"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1287.351,"endTime":1288.811,"body":"developed lupus-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1289.471,"endTime":1292.892,"body":"... Following the delivery of their triplets. And, you know-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1292.892,"endTime":1296.071,"body":"... Her doctor basically said, you know, understandably, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1296.071,"endTime":1298.412,"body":"further pregnancies were a really bad idea for her, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1298.412,"endTime":1299.83,"body":"they had embryos left in storage,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1300.471,"endTime":1303.311,"body":"and they were not thrilled about the idea of donating those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1303.311,"endTime":1306.471,"body":"embryos to another infertile couple. As the, as the guy put"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1306.471,"endTime":1308.912,"body":"it to me, he said, \"I don't like the idea of my progeny running"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1308.912,"endTime":1312.231,"body":"around, you know, possibly in my own community, without my"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1312.231,"endTime":1313.051,"body":"knowledge.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1313.051,"endTime":1313.751,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1313.751,"endTime":1316.251,"body":"And understandably so. And it seems to me it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1316.251,"endTime":1321.311,"body":"this, the, it's the parents who have already had kids from IVF-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1321.311,"endTime":1321.652,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1321.652,"endTime":1324.092,"body":"... Who really get this, that there's continuity"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1324.652,"endTime":1325.251,"body":"between-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1325.251,"endTime":1325.261,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1325.261,"endTime":1326.951,"body":"... The embryo in the lab-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1326.951,"endTime":1327.011,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1327.011,"endTime":1329.652,"body":"... And the bouncing baby boy or girl that they're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1329.652,"endTime":1330.06,"body":"holding"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1330.632,"endTime":1332.031,"body":"in their arms."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1332.031,"endTime":1334.071,"body":"So Scott, you've spent more time on this than I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1334.071,"endTime":1335.672,"body":"have. I'm curious if,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1336.192,"endTime":1340.471,"body":"is it possible to f- to freeze eggs and sperm"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1341.011,"endTime":1344.951,"body":"separately without letting them combine, and then decide later"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1344.951,"endTime":1347.791,"body":"about fertilization?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1347.791,"endTime":1349.011,"body":"Sperm, yes."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1349.731,"endTime":1349.851,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1349.851,"endTime":1350.311,"body":"Eggs-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1350.311,"endTime":1350.971,"body":"But not eggs?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1350.971,"endTime":1352.551,"body":"... Eggs, not so much."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1352.551,"endTime":1353.862,"body":"Okay, interesting."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1353.862,"endTime":1357.011,"body":"And part of the latest success rates"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1357.011,"endTime":1363.132,"body":"I've heard from, the, success of live births from frozen eggs-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1363.132,"endTime":1363.382,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1363.382,"endTime":1365.531,"body":"... Is about one in three."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1365.531,"endTime":1366.412,"body":"Wow, okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1366.412,"endTime":1369.612,"body":"So, so women who are using egg freezing to delay"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1369.612,"endTime":1372.011,"body":"their fertility until the time is right-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1372.011,"endTime":1372.392,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1372.392,"endTime":1374.531,"body":"... Are running a bigger risk, I think- ... Than"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1374.531,"endTime":1375.321,"body":"they realize."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1375.321,"endTime":1375.571,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1375.571,"endTime":1377.592,"body":"'Cause I would say egg freezing is not a sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1377.592,"endTime":1380.471,"body":"thing. The reason for that, as I understand from the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1380.471,"endTime":1384.291,"body":"science on this, is that so much of a woman's egg is water"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1384.291,"endTime":1384.932,"body":"content."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1384.932,"endTime":1385.771,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1385.771,"endTime":1388.491,"body":"And when water freezes, it forms crystals."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1388.491,"endTime":1388.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1388.932,"endTime":1392.632,"body":"That in the process of thawing, can do d- can do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1392.632,"endTime":1394.271,"body":"chromosomal damage-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1394.271,"endTime":1394.442,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1394.442,"endTime":1395.511,"body":"... To the egg."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1395.511,"endTime":1396.301,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1396.301,"endTime":1398.851,"body":"So, that's-- I think that's the reason. Freezing eggs"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1398.851,"endTime":1400.451,"body":"is not hard. It's thawing them out-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1400.451,"endTime":1400.932,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1400.932,"endTime":1402.601,"body":"... That is the challenge on this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1403.451,"endTime":1403.981,"body":"You know, I ha-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1403.981,"endTime":1403.981,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1403.981,"endTime":1406.011,"body":"... I had a, got a couple I consulted with not too"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1406.011,"endTime":1409.392,"body":"long ago, where they had made... They, they talked about this at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1409.392,"endTime":1410.351,"body":"the beginning-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1410.351,"endTime":1410.851,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1410.851,"endTime":1413.311,"body":"... And they had taken steps to limit the number"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1413.311,"endTime":1414.412,"body":"of eggs that she"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1415.231,"endTime":1416.491,"body":"had harvested-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1416.491,"endTime":1416.991,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1416.991,"endTime":1417.251,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1417.851,"endTime":1420.632,"body":"For the, for the prospect of limiting the number of embryos"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1420.632,"endTime":1421.642,"body":"that they were creating."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1421.642,"endTime":1421.652,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1421.652,"endTime":1423.392,"body":"And they realized that they were taking a chance"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1423.392,"endTime":1424.471,"body":"financially-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1424.471,"endTime":1424.652,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1424.652,"endTime":1426.092,"body":"... By doing that, but they went ahead and did it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1426.092,"endTime":1427.051,"body":"anyway."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1428.192,"endTime":1430.432,"body":"And what happened was the clinic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1431.051,"endTime":1431.402,"body":"either"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1432.652,"endTime":1434.791,"body":"forgot about that or ignored"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1435.412,"endTime":1436.511,"body":"their request,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1437.511,"endTime":1438.031,"body":"because-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1438.031,"endTime":1438.392,"body":"Oh"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1438.392,"endTime":1441.172,"body":"... Partly because the clinic had, has financial"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1441.172,"endTime":1442.412,"body":"interests in, you know-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1442.412,"endTime":1442.451,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1442.451,"endTime":1445.271,"body":"... Having live births, and, it's good for their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1445.271,"endTime":1447.152,"body":"success rate, things like that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1448.071,"endTime":1450.132,"body":"And they ended up having 20 eggs-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1450.132,"endTime":1450.961,"body":"[gasps]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1450.961,"endTime":1452.751,"body":"... Harvested."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1453.632,"endTime":1457.192,"body":"And most of those fertilized successfully."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1457.192,"endTime":1457.761,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1458.491,"endTime":1460.791,"body":"And they are, they are [chuckles] really in a tough"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1460.791,"endTime":1463.112,"body":"pickle. And they were just recently going back"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1463.741,"endTime":1464.192,"body":"for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1464.892,"endTime":1466.771,"body":"child number two. They had a baby successfully-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1466.771,"endTime":1467.051,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1467.592,"endTime":1470.271,"body":"... And number two, but they have far more embryos"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1470.271,"endTime":1473.667,"body":"than they're gonna be able to use. And so they were-... You"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1473.667,"endTime":1476.227,"body":"know, and this was no fault of their own."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1476.227,"endTime":1476.607,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1476.607,"endTime":1476.896,"body":"But,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1477.446,"endTime":1478.387,"body":"you know, the clinic just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1479.107,"endTime":1479.946,"body":"kind of ignored them."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1479.946,"endTime":1480.107,"body":"Wow. Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1480.107,"endTime":1480.567,"body":"And I-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1480.567,"endTime":1481.207,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1481.207,"endTime":1483.527,"body":"And I think they could, had they been inclined, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1483.527,"endTime":1486.827,"body":"think they could have had a case for malpractice-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1486.827,"endTime":1487.917,"body":"Yeah, for sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1487.917,"endTime":1488.987,"body":"... Toward the clinic on this."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1488.987,"endTime":1489.147,"body":"For sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1489.147,"endTime":1491.548,"body":"So that, so sometimes couples do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1491.548,"endTime":1492.446,"body":"it all right-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1492.446,"endTime":1493.127,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1493.127,"endTime":1495.467,"body":"... And they still end up in a pickle-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1495.467,"endTime":1495.877,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1495.877,"endTime":1496.827,"body":"... Like this."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1496.827,"endTime":1497.087,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1497.087,"endTime":1497.827,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1497.827,"endTime":1499.907,"body":"Well, that second article that you,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1500.717,"endTime":1503.567,"body":"s- that you found about these designer babies or designer"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1503.567,"endTime":1508.548,"body":"embryos is such an interesting corollary to all this, because"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1508.548,"endTime":1513.607,"body":"couples are now being given the option of choosing between up to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1513.607,"endTime":1517.607,"body":"20 embryos. They can, they can compare the DNA of up to 20"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1517.607,"endTime":1521.257,"body":"embryos. I think the price tag is $6,000 for this service."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.257,"endTime":1521.407,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1521.407,"endTime":1521.428,"body":"Where you get-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.428,"endTime":1522.788,"body":"For this particular one."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1522.788,"endTime":1525.587,"body":"Yeah, where you get a printout of all the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1525.587,"endTime":1528.747,"body":"medical, possible medical conditions, possible mental"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1528.747,"endTime":1532.446,"body":"health conditions, and as you said, the height, baldness, BMI,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1532.446,"endTime":1534.347,"body":"eye and hair color."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1534.987,"endTime":1538.907,"body":"It is hard for me to read this and not see it as a modern form"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1538.907,"endTime":1540.727,"body":"of eugenics."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1540.727,"endTime":1542.767,"body":"Well, I think that term, I think, is starting"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1542.767,"endTime":1544.387,"body":"to be invoked more routinely-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1544.387,"endTime":1545.087,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1545.087,"endTime":1546.057,"body":"... On this."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1546.057,"endTime":1546.057,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1546.567,"endTime":1548.788,"body":"And I think just to be clear for our listeners, too,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1548.788,"endTime":1551.847,"body":"we've, we've talked about this with the other companies have,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1551.847,"endTime":1553.777,"body":"have come out with these similar tests, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1554.288,"endTime":1556.727,"body":"this one has so many conditions"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1557.428,"endTime":1558.557,"body":"that it screens for."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1558.557,"endTime":1558.567,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1558.567,"endTime":1561.407,"body":"And our listeners, I think, need to know that most of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1561.407,"endTime":1565.347,"body":"these conditions are not direct genetic links."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1566.527,"endTime":1568.487,"body":"They're, they're what geneticists call"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1568.487,"endTime":1569.707,"body":"predispositions."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1569.707,"endTime":1570.127,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1570.127,"endTime":1572.307,"body":"Which all that does is increase the risk"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1572.987,"endTime":1573.117,"body":"of-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1573.117,"endTime":1573.137,"body":"But not that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1573.137,"endTime":1573.887,"body":"... Developing these."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1573.887,"endTime":1574.007,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1574.007,"endTime":1574.737,"body":"But, but-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1574.737,"endTime":1576.127,"body":"It doesn't guarantee it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1576.127,"endTime":1578.967,"body":"Not, n- very few of these are a sure thing. Uh-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1578.967,"endTime":1580.788,"body":"And I'm just thinking, Scott, if somebody"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1580.788,"endTime":1584.446,"body":"would have given my parents that option or given their parents"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1584.446,"endTime":1585.077,"body":"that option..."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1585.837,"endTime":1588.847,"body":"Let's take the latter. Let's say that my grandmother"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1588.847,"endTime":1592.367,"body":"was given the possibility of screening for the possible"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1592.367,"endTime":1595.847,"body":"health conditions that my mom would have. She has spent much"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1595.847,"endTime":1600.507,"body":"of her adult life with chronic health conditions. She's s- had,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1600.507,"endTime":1603.147,"body":"she had a traumatic brain injury. There were all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1603.147,"endTime":1606.367,"body":"things that came from that, but even before the brain injury,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1606.367,"endTime":1610.127,"body":"there was long-term chronic conditions that impacted her"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1610.127,"endTime":1615.347,"body":"quality of life. There's no possible way that I would say i-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1615.347,"endTime":1618.827,"body":"she would've been better off not being born. She has been a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1618.827,"endTime":1622.186,"body":"wonderful mother, a wonderful friend, a wonderful grandmother,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1622.186,"endTime":1625.067,"body":"a follower of Jesus. She has persevered through suffering."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1625.067,"endTime":1628.027,"body":"She's had a rich life, and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1628.768,"endTime":1632.207,"body":"I just don't think we can look at a printout of all of the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1632.207,"endTime":1634.186,"body":"health conditions we might have someday"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1634.788,"endTime":1638.946,"body":"and determine whether that life is worth living. That's not how"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1638.946,"endTime":1639.717,"body":"it works."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1639.717,"endTime":1641.347,"body":"Yeah. That's, and well, that's not how it lor-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1641.347,"endTime":1645.967,"body":"works in a fallen world- ... Where, you know, we have, we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1645.967,"endTime":1648.247,"body":"have the stuff of real life-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1648.247,"endTime":1648.367,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1648.928,"endTime":1652.027,"body":"... Which includes disability."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1652.027,"endTime":1652.487,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1652.487,"endTime":1654.157,"body":"It includes illness."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1654.157,"endTime":1654.186,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1654.186,"endTime":1656.707,"body":"It includes suffering, you know, none of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1656.707,"endTime":1657.117,"body":"which are-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1657.117,"endTime":1657.117,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1657.117,"endTime":1660.087,"body":"... Good in and of themselves, but God uses those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1660.087,"endTime":1660.768,"body":"for good-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1660.768,"endTime":1661.067,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1661.067,"endTime":1663.757,"body":"... To form us and shape us into who we are."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1663.757,"endTime":1663.768,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1663.768,"endTime":1666.647,"body":"We had a, we had a, one of our grads was on two,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1666.647,"endTime":1669.686,"body":"three weeks ago, who was talking about disability. He was exposed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1669.686,"endTime":1671.147,"body":"to measles in the womb-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1671.907,"endTime":1674.027,"body":"... And has severe disabilities."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1674.567,"endTime":1676.827,"body":"But he was very articulate in describing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1677.407,"endTime":1680.157,"body":"w- how that has shaped the person-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1680.157,"endTime":1680.157,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1680.157,"endTime":1681.707,"body":"... That God has allowed him to become-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1681.707,"endTime":1681.917,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1681.917,"endTime":1684.428,"body":"... And how that shaped his character. And it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1684.428,"endTime":1686.268,"body":"would've be- it would've been tragic."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1686.268,"endTime":1686.547,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1686.547,"endTime":1688.227,"body":"I mean, he would've, he would've been a prime"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1688.227,"endTime":1689.446,"body":"candidate-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1689.446,"endTime":1689.788,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1689.788,"endTime":1691.327,"body":"... I think, for some of this screening, though"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1691.327,"endTime":1693.467,"body":"he was exposed to this in the womb, which couldn't-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1693.467,"endTime":1693.477,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1693.477,"endTime":1695.127,"body":"... Have been screened for. But had he- had"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1695.127,"endTime":1698.497,"body":"his mom known about all these dis- potential disabilities-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1698.497,"endTime":1698.647,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1698.647,"endTime":1700.807,"body":"... I think the odds would've been against him."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1700.807,"endTime":1701.327,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1701.327,"endTime":1703.788,"body":"But the, as you describe it applies to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1703.788,"endTime":1705.407,"body":"him, too. The richness of his life-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1705.407,"endTime":1705.417,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1705.417,"endTime":1707.667,"body":"... Has been so significant."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1708.428,"endTime":1711.827,"body":"And God has used those things to shape him into who he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1711.827,"endTime":1714.247,"body":"is. Now, that doesn't mean we don't cure disease"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1714.946,"endTime":1719.186,"body":"and try to alleviate genetic abnormalities as best we can,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1719.186,"endTime":1722.227,"body":"but I think we are, we are-- in general, I think we are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1722.227,"endTime":1723.686,"body":"overreacting-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1723.686,"endTime":1723.857,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1723.857,"endTime":1726.007,"body":"... To the, some of the risks-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1726.007,"endTime":1726.127,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1726.127,"endTime":1728.307,"body":"... That are just, they're just part of, part of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1728.307,"endTime":1729.327,"body":"living in a fallen world."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1729.327,"endTime":1732.768,"body":"Yes. And part of, I think, why we get stuck on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1732.768,"endTime":1733.047,"body":"this"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1733.667,"endTime":1738.807,"body":"is that there's a lie out there in our culture that to be a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1738.807,"endTime":1743.027,"body":"fulfilled and satisfied and self-actualized person, we need"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1743.027,"endTime":1744.637,"body":"to be happy all the time,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1745.446,"endTime":1749.127,"body":"and any kind of disease would then contradict that s- quest"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1749.127,"endTime":1752.667,"body":"for happiness. We see happiness as the highest good, and that's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1752.667,"endTime":1756.987,"body":"not a biblical way of looking at the world. My dad was recently"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1756.987,"endTime":1760.227,"body":"diagnosed with Lewy body dementia. It's been a really-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1760.227,"endTime":1761.707,"body":"What is, what is that?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1761.707,"endTime":1764.847,"body":"Lewy body is sort of between Alzheimer's and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1764.847,"endTime":1765.667,"body":"Parkinson's."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1765.667,"endTime":1766.087,"body":"I see."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1766.087,"endTime":1769.007,"body":"So rather than deep memory loss, it's more of a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1769.007,"endTime":1773.507,"body":"loss of executive functioning, and then it, the progress-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1773.507,"endTime":1777.637,"body":"as the disease progresses, it comes with physical,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1777.637,"endTime":1778.788,"body":"disabilities and,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1780.027,"endTime":1783.547,"body":"like mobility issues like you would see with Parkinson's. So"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1783.547,"endTime":1786.487,"body":"it's been a w- kind of a wild journey learning about it and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1787.387,"endTime":1789.647,"body":"figuring out what's going on. It, it often"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1790.167,"endTime":1793.147,"body":"includes hallucinations, which was the- ... Presenting symptom"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1793.147,"endTime":1797.027,"body":"that made us start looking into what was going on. When I look"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1797.027,"endTime":1799.527,"body":"back at the past six months walking with my dad through"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1799.527,"endTime":1803.527,"body":"this, I would say this has been some of the sweetest months of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1803.527,"endTime":1807.407,"body":"our relationship. We're, we're more connected. We're talking"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1807.407,"endTime":1811.067,"body":"every day. I'm kind of his air traffic controller, helping"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1811.067,"endTime":1812.627,"body":"figure out medical appointments"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1813.186,"endTime":1813.727,"body":"and,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1814.788,"endTime":1818.047,"body":"and making decisions and navigating things that no longer"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1818.047,"endTime":1822.507,"body":"make sense to him, and we're bonded in a beautiful way. If"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1822.507,"endTime":1825.547,"body":"he'd been screened ahead of time to see that he had"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1825.547,"endTime":1829.147,"body":"predisposition to this particular kind of dementia,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1829.147,"endTime":1832.167,"body":"somebody would've said, \"Oh, we're gonna spare him this.\" But"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1832.167,"endTime":1835.567,"body":"these have been some of the richest months, I think, of his"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1835.567,"endTime":1836.047,"body":"life."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1837.039,"endTime":1839.559,"body":"... Yeah, I think the question is, Carmen, who"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1839.559,"endTime":1841.319,"body":"actually are we sparing?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1841.319,"endTime":1842.48,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1842.48,"endTime":1845.44,"body":"Well, we're sparing the parents, and, if we're gonna"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1845.44,"endTime":1849.2,"body":"do that, I think let's at least be honest about who we're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1849.2,"endTime":1849.92,"body":"sparing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1850.599,"endTime":1852.359,"body":"It's not the child-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1852.359,"endTime":1852.759,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1852.759,"endTime":1853.009,"body":"... In most cases."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1853.009,"endTime":1854.539,"body":"And, and that's interesting because in this"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1854.539,"endTime":1858.539,"body":"case, the disease didn't, didn't hit my dad until his mid-70s, so"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1858.539,"endTime":1861.299,"body":"his mom isn't around anymore to have been-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1861.299,"endTime":1861.47,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1861.47,"endTime":1864.299,"body":"... Inconvenienced by it. But I'm just thinking of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1864.299,"endTime":1868.019,"body":"all of the people that I know with low IQ who are such a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1868.019,"endTime":1870.98,"body":"blessing to everyone they meet. You know, like-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1870.98,"endTime":1871.13,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1871.13,"endTime":1873.66,"body":"... If you're gonna screen for intelligence,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1873.66,"endTime":1876.359,"body":"you are screening out some of the world's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1877.24,"endTime":1878.41,"body":"most loving people."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1879.66,"endTime":1881.859,"body":"Well, yeah, and we have, we have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1881.859,"endTime":1884.96,"body":"interest in diversity, except for this one."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1884.96,"endTime":1885.7,"body":"Yes. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1885.7,"endTime":1886.46,"body":"This is the one-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1886.46,"endTime":1886.48,"body":"Isn't that interesting?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1886.48,"endTime":1889.028,"body":"This is the one we're intent on screening out."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1889.028,"endTime":1889.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1889.049,"endTime":1891.819,"body":"And I just, you know, I think we, listeners need"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1891.819,"endTime":1894.74,"body":"to be clear about this, too, that in case you didn't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1894.74,"endTime":1897.44,"body":"know, everybody has some undesirable"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1898.24,"endTime":1900.2,"body":"genetic traits about you."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1900.2,"endTime":1900.48,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1900.48,"endTime":1902.44,"body":"None, none of us are genetically perfect."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1902.44,"endTime":1902.94,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1902.94,"endTime":1905.38,"body":"In fact, I, the latest estimate I heard is, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1905.38,"endTime":1909.039,"body":"know, most people have roughly, you know, 50 to 60- ... Genetic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1909.039,"endTime":1911.64,"body":"glitches- ... In their genome-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1911.64,"endTime":1911.799,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1911.799,"endTime":1914.42,"body":"... That, you know, thankfully don't affect most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1914.42,"endTime":1917.9,"body":"people. But, you know, some do, but nobody's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1917.9,"endTime":1919.859,"body":"genetically perfect, and the search for the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1920.799,"endTime":1922.68,"body":"genetically perfect child-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1922.68,"endTime":1922.9,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1922.9,"endTime":1924.839,"body":"... In my view, is a fool's errand."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1924.839,"endTime":1925.519,"body":"It is."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1925.519,"endTime":1928.619,"body":"That takes us away from, ultimately, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1928.619,"endTime":1932.039,"body":"recognizing that we are bringing, we are bringing fallen"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1932.039,"endTime":1935.9,"body":"children into a fallen world, into the homes of fallen"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1935.9,"endTime":1936.559,"body":"parents,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1937.24,"endTime":1940.18,"body":"who are, by the grace of God, are gonna do the best they can-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1940.18,"endTime":1940.579,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1940.579,"endTime":1943.22,"body":"... To parent them and to love them and to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1943.22,"endTime":1945.359,"body":"bring them into maturity-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1945.359,"endTime":1945.369,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1945.369,"endTime":1947.799,"body":"... And to, and to help by, you know, with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1947.799,"endTime":1950.079,"body":"the hand of the Holy Spirit, help develop"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1950.619,"endTime":1951.799,"body":"their character."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1951.799,"endTime":1952.63,"body":"Yeah. Amen to that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1952.63,"endTime":1955.539,"body":"This I just... I wonder what this is gonna do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1955.539,"endTime":1958.119,"body":"to our, the way we view people who-- adults who have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1958.119,"endTime":1958.9,"body":"disabilities."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1958.9,"endTime":1960.039,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1960.039,"endTime":1962.88,"body":"Because I think we've already had some,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1962.88,"endTime":1964.5,"body":"pro-choice advocates admit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1965.339,"endTime":1968.319,"body":"that, for example, when they see someone, a parent in the grocery"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1968.319,"endTime":1971.4,"body":"store, you know, with a kid with Down syndrome, they sort of..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1971.4,"endTime":1973.46,"body":"They think to themselves-- they don't, thankfully, they don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1973.46,"endTime":1976.2,"body":"say it out loud, but they think to themselves, \"Don't you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1976.2,"endTime":1979.259,"body":"realize that you didn't have to have this child?\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1979.259,"endTime":1979.67,"body":"Oh!"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1980.599,"endTime":1982.24,"body":"And they-- and thankfully, they catch"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1982.24,"endTime":1985.14,"body":"themselves with exactly the reaction you had."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1985.14,"endTime":1985.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1985.96,"endTime":1989.319,"body":"But I just, I wonder what this is-- what this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1989.319,"endTime":1993.319,"body":"will do to people who have, you know, sort of, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1993.319,"endTime":1995.7,"body":"relatively minor things. I mean, I'm familiar with parents who"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1995.7,"endTime":1998.2,"body":"have had... They've aborted their children because they,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1998.2,"endTime":2000.359,"body":"they were diagnosed in the womb with a cleft palate."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2001.299,"endTime":2001.359,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2001.359,"endTime":2003.88,"body":"Even though, you know, that can easily be fixed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2003.88,"endTime":2004.859,"body":"surgically."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2004.859,"endTime":2005.209,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2005.799,"endTime":2007.559,"body":"So I think that it is-- you're right, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2007.559,"endTime":2009.029,"body":"to raise the specter of eugenics."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2009.539,"endTime":2009.66,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2009.66,"endTime":2013.2,"body":"This is bringing, I think, designer children closer-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2013.2,"endTime":2013.209,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2013.209,"endTime":2015.4,"body":"... Not so much by who we engineer, but who we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2015.4,"endTime":2016.42,"body":"eliminate."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2016.42,"endTime":2017.289,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2017.289,"endTime":2017.289,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2017.289,"endTime":2019.579,"body":"And it relates to what we just talked about with"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2019.579,"endTime":2020.539,"body":"the chatbot"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2021.059,"endTime":2025.16,"body":"romantic partners that are being design engineered to be a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2025.16,"endTime":2031.96,"body":"certain way. We, we are... We continue to feed this lie"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2032.66,"endTime":2034.599,"body":"that we have to be a certain"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2035.14,"endTime":2039.0,"body":"shape, size, personality to be good"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2039.74,"endTime":2041.369,"body":"or to be right. There's a kind of,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2041.98,"endTime":2045.7,"body":"deep-rooted ableism that's behind all of this, and as you"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2045.7,"endTime":2050.679,"body":"pointed out, so ironic in an age when tolerance and diversity are"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2050.679,"endTime":2052.739,"body":"supposedly high values."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2052.739,"endTime":2054.34,"body":"Yeah, for everything but this."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2054.34,"endTime":2055.0,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2055.0,"endTime":2057.059,"body":"Now, good stuff. Really good take on this. Let's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2057.059,"endTime":2059.28,"body":"go to, let's go to story number three. Carmen, you sent this to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2059.28,"endTime":2059.92,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2059.92,"endTime":2060.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2060.8,"endTime":2063.079,"body":"This was... This is a chilling story on the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2063.079,"endTime":2065.619,"body":"treatment of inmates in prisons-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2065.619,"endTime":2065.86,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2065.86,"endTime":2067.94,"body":"... In some cities across the United States. This"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2067.94,"endTime":2071.51,"body":"is a, an article from w- a organization called The Marshall"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2071.51,"endTime":2074.639,"body":"Project, which specializes in journalism about criminal"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2074.639,"endTime":2079.059,"body":"justice, and the article is c- is entitled \"The Unbearable"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2079.059,"endTime":2079.699,"body":"Darkness"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2080.239,"endTime":2084.0,"body":"of Jail.\" And it's highlighting conditions in jails in three"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2084.0,"endTime":2087.42,"body":"specific cities, Cleveland, Ohio, St. Louis, Missouri, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2087.42,"endTime":2088.88,"body":"Jackson, Mississippi."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2088.88,"endTime":2088.969,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2088.969,"endTime":2092.86,"body":"And a new inhumane condition was exposed that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2092.86,"endTime":2094.699,"body":"frankly, I've never thought about before."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2094.699,"endTime":2095.38,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2095.38,"endTime":2097.86,"body":"And that is the lack of sunlight-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2097.86,"endTime":2098.018,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2098.018,"endTime":2101.119,"body":"... And fresh air. And they point out that many"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2101.119,"endTime":2104.679,"body":"jails built in the last century often have very few windows,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2104.679,"endTime":2108.0,"body":"little room for open space and for natural light, and I... They"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2108.0,"endTime":2111.219,"body":"s- they s- they gave pictures of some of the windows in the jails"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2111.219,"endTime":2113.38,"body":"that are nothing but really narrow slits"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2114.039,"endTime":2117.4,"body":"that bring, you know, maybe a sliver-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2117.4,"endTime":2118.159,"body":"And some jails-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2118.159,"endTime":2118.17,"body":"... Of natural light"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2118.17,"endTime":2119.769,"body":"... With no windows at all."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2119.769,"endTime":2120.11,"body":"At all."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2120.11,"endTime":2122.719,"body":"Like, it's, you're just looking at a blank concrete"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2122.719,"endTime":2126.4,"body":"wall, and this is the outside of a place where people live."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2126.4,"endTime":2128.599,"body":"And the, and the notion that jails should provide"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2128.599,"endTime":2131.519,"body":"sunlight, I think the article points out, often takes a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2131.519,"endTime":2135.369,"body":"backseat to other issues that they consider more pressing."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2135.369,"endTime":2135.38,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2135.38,"endTime":2139.019,"body":"But the impact, what they point out, can actually be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2139.019,"endTime":2142.659,"body":"quite dramatic. Here, one of the, one of the administrators"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2142.659,"endTime":2144.9,"body":"puts it like this- \"When there's lack of sunlight- ... And fresh"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2144.9,"endTime":2148.26,"body":"air and recreation, almost unilaterally, you see more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2148.26,"endTime":2150.86,"body":"critical incidents occurring.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2150.86,"endTime":2150.949,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2150.949,"endTime":2153.3,"body":"\"Inmates who are idle or who are afraid take"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2153.3,"endTime":2156.199,"body":"life-saving measures to presen- protect themselves, so they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2156.199,"endTime":2160.82,"body":"create weapons, and you see sicker inmates because of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2160.82,"endTime":2162.159,"body":"stress.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2162.159,"endTime":2162.17,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2162.17,"endTime":2165.42,"body":"Now, many state laws require access to sunlight and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2165.42,"endTime":2169.0,"body":"and fresh air, but often are not implemented for a variety of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2169.0,"endTime":2174.34,"body":"reasons. Understaffing is often used as a, as a, explanation for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2174.34,"endTime":2177.4,"body":"that, and it really, it, in many cases, would require build,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2177.4,"endTime":2181.42,"body":"rebuilding prison systems in some states at quite high cost."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2181.42,"endTime":2181.94,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2181.94,"endTime":2184.019,"body":"One particular prison in Mississippi described"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2184.019,"endTime":2187.059,"body":"the majority of the jail's windows were completely covered-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2188.139,"endTime":2191.239,"body":"... Allowing no sunlight, and there were, there... And even"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2191.239,"endTime":2196.059,"body":"the light fixtures were often not working. They said in some,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2196.059,"endTime":2200.11,"body":"in some cases, cells were dark for 24 hours"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2200.619,"endTime":2204.4,"body":"a day.... All right, now, Carmen, well, I know you've,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2204.4,"endTime":2207.199,"body":"you've, you reacted to this initially when you sent"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2207.199,"endTime":2210.179,"body":"this article to me about what a violation of the image of God-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2210.179,"endTime":2210.278,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2210.278,"endTime":2211.769,"body":"... That this was in these inmates."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2211.769,"endTime":2211.8,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2211.8,"endTime":2214.019,"body":"So tell us a little bit more about that, and sort of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2214.019,"endTime":2215.559,"body":"spell out your take on this."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2215.559,"endTime":2218.119,"body":"Yeah, I think it's really important as"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2218.119,"endTime":2221.159,"body":"Christians to recognize that every human being is the image"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2221.159,"endTime":2227.159,"body":"of God, and that means that every human has the right to be"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2227.159,"endTime":2229.929,"body":"treated with dignity. And I don't think that criminal"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2229.929,"endTime":2230.199,"body":"behavior-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2230.199,"endTime":2231.739,"body":"Regardless of the crimes that they've committed."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2231.739,"endTime":2234.5,"body":"Right. Regardless of crime, they ought to be"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2234.5,"endTime":2237.579,"body":"treated with fairness and dignity. Now, I'm not saying"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2237.579,"endTime":2241.44,"body":"that jails should become some kind of all-inclusive resort,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2241.44,"endTime":2244.4,"body":"you know, where we've, we've got recliners and big-screen TVs"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2244.4,"endTime":2247.269,"body":"and, you know, all-you-can-eat bonbons."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2247.269,"endTime":2248.489,"body":"[chuckles] That's not what I would- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2248.489,"endTime":2248.57,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2248.57,"endTime":2252.539,"body":"... Would advocate for. However, sunlight seems to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2252.539,"endTime":2257.199,"body":"me to be a fundamental human need, so that it's actually, as"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2257.199,"endTime":2259.679,"body":"you read, it's counterproductive"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2260.199,"endTime":2264.0,"body":"for this, for the process of even keeping people in the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2264.0,"endTime":2268.039,"body":"building safe to not have sunlight and fresh air. S- the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2268.039,"endTime":2271.36,"body":"article says that sunlight deprivation causes high blood"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2271.36,"endTime":2275.8,"body":"pressure, osteoporosis, increased risk of diabetes,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2275.8,"endTime":2280.019,"body":"depression, and sleep disorders. It's... In some cases, the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2280.019,"endTime":2283.46,"body":"inmates can't even tell what time of day it is because they"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2283.46,"endTime":2286.82,"body":"can't see outside. They can only tell from what meals are being"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2286.82,"endTime":2292.4,"body":"brought to them what time of day it is. And to me, even if you're"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2292.4,"endTime":2294.88,"body":"having a conversation with someone who doesn't believe"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2294.88,"endTime":2298.039,"body":"inmates are the image of God and should be treated with dignity,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2298.039,"endTime":2299.539,"body":"that's just bad finance"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2300.38,"endTime":2304.46,"body":"sense to create conditions that are going to exacerbate"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2305.199,"endTime":2309.519,"body":"medical problems that are then going to have to be paid for by"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2309.519,"endTime":2311.659,"body":"the state. I think,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2312.32,"endTime":2315.759,"body":"I mean, I believe in the dignity of all people, but"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2315.759,"endTime":2318.139,"body":"if, as we're having conversations with others about"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2318.139,"endTime":2321.0,"body":"prison reform, it seems to me it makes good financial sense"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2321.619,"endTime":2326.0,"body":"to have bigger windows, to have access to the outside. Some of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2326.0,"endTime":2331.018,"body":"these inmates go years without any outdoor exercise or fresh"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2331.018,"endTime":2334.239,"body":"air. They develop breathing problems because the air is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2334.239,"endTime":2335.389,"body":"recycled through their"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2336.0,"endTime":2341.0,"body":"entire building, and it's, it's not refreshed. How is this gonna"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2341.0,"endTime":2343.92,"body":"be effective at restoring criminals to a healthy role in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2343.92,"endTime":2345.84,"body":"society upon their release?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2346.82,"endTime":2348.759,"body":"Yeah, I think one of the inmates cited in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2348.759,"endTime":2349.039,"body":"this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2349.559,"endTime":2352.4,"body":"after he got out, he had been, he had been in this prison that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2352.4,"endTime":2353.32,"body":"we just described."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2353.32,"endTime":2353.57,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2353.57,"endTime":2356.099,"body":"When he got out, and he s- and he experienced"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2356.099,"endTime":2359.679,"body":"sunlight and fresh air for the first time in several years,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2359.679,"endTime":2363.148,"body":"vowed to himself, \"I am never going back to prison.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2363.148,"endTime":2364.219,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2364.219,"endTime":2367.0,"body":"Just because of what he experienced with the-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2367.0,"endTime":2367.32,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2367.32,"endTime":2370.079,"body":"... Just the refreshing nature of sunlight-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2370.079,"endTime":2370.119,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2370.119,"endTime":2371.579,"body":"... And fresh air."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2371.579,"endTime":2375.98,"body":"I just think i- for us to contribute to the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2375.98,"endTime":2380.199,"body":"downward spiral of depression and desperation of inmates,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2381.309,"endTime":2382.509,"body":"by denying them"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2383.38,"endTime":2388.199,"body":"their, the basic human needs of light and air, I think is just"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2388.199,"endTime":2390.278,"body":"shooting ourselves in the foot."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2390.278,"endTime":2390.57,"body":"Yeah, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2391.159,"endTime":2393.44,"body":"I, you know, and I'm- we're not prison administrators."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2393.44,"endTime":2393.699,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2393.699,"endTime":2395.199,"body":"You know, we don't, we don't wrestle with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2395.199,"endTime":2397.179,"body":"understaffing. You know, we know-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2397.179,"endTime":2397.219,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2397.219,"endTime":2398.519,"body":"... Those things are real."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2398.519,"endTime":2399.0,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2399.0,"endTime":2402.42,"body":"And the cost that it would take to basically redo"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2402.42,"endTime":2403.659,"body":"many of these prison systems,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2404.32,"endTime":2404.829,"body":"I think that's-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2404.829,"endTime":2404.829,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2404.829,"endTime":2406.199,"body":"... That's real, too."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2406.199,"endTime":2406.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2406.539,"endTime":2409.119,"body":"And so this, it, I think it pre- it presents a,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2409.119,"endTime":2411.44,"body":"a bit of a public policy dilemma-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2411.44,"endTime":2411.9,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2411.9,"endTime":2414.32,"body":"... Because I think it, I think it is essential, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2414.32,"endTime":2417.4,"body":"think, and as you pointed out, it makes good financial sense."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2417.4,"endTime":2417.699,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2417.699,"endTime":2420.34,"body":"I know that some prisons do not re- do not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2420.34,"endTime":2423.219,"body":"have recreation areas. They don't have outside places for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2423.219,"endTime":2424.059,"body":"inmates to gather."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2424.059,"endTime":2424.659,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2424.659,"endTime":2426.579,"body":"And because it's- because they're understaffed,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2426.579,"endTime":2429.059,"body":"they can't... They feel like they can't, they just can't make"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2429.059,"endTime":2430.34,"body":"those safe."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2430.34,"endTime":2430.719,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2430.719,"endTime":2434.3,"body":"On the other hand, depriving inmates of that, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2434.3,"endTime":2437.079,"body":"think cr- it creates some of the safety problems-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2437.079,"endTime":2437.3,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2437.3,"endTime":2438.88,"body":"... That you've pointed out, so-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2438.88,"endTime":2441.3,"body":"That then lead to understaffing because of the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2441.3,"endTime":2444.4,"body":"high stress level of working in a jail-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2444.4,"endTime":2444.42,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2444.42,"endTime":2444.679,"body":"... Where"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2445.219,"endTime":2450.32,"body":"people, where the inmates are so restless and so, unhappy. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2450.32,"endTime":2453.599,"body":"my aunt worked in a, in the prison system as a nurse for"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2453.599,"endTime":2457.42,"body":"many years, and it was an extremely difficult job."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2458.0,"endTime":2461.969,"body":"And it would be exacerbated if inmates don't have access"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2461.969,"endTime":2463.679,"body":"to having their basic needs met."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2463.679,"endTime":2466.099,"body":"Yeah, my sister is close friends with a gentleman"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2466.099,"endTime":2469.88,"body":"who works in the Mich- one of the Michigan, prison systems."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2469.88,"endTime":2470.019,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2470.019,"endTime":2472.159,"body":"And she talks about the stress that he goes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2472.159,"endTime":2472.579,"body":"under-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2472.579,"endTime":2472.76,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2472.76,"endTime":2474.38,"body":"... Is just enormous."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2474.38,"endTime":2474.84,"body":"It is enormous."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2474.84,"endTime":2477.619,"body":"And so the turnover, I think, is understandable."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2477.619,"endTime":2477.778,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2477.778,"endTime":2480.079,"body":"But this seems to be a, you know, a problem that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2480.079,"endTime":2482.96,"body":"at least is now on the radar screen."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2482.96,"endTime":2483.739,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2483.739,"endTime":2486.099,"body":"And hopefully, in other systems around the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2486.099,"endTime":2489.48,"body":"country, will be considered part of prison reform."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2489.48,"endTime":2491.579,"body":"Yeah. I'm glad we're talking about it because"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2491.579,"endTime":2496.26,"body":"it's often Christians who are calling for, more law and order,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2496.26,"endTime":2499.278,"body":"and they want more criminals being taken off the streets."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2499.278,"endTime":2502.699,"body":"Then we need to also follow up and say, \"As a Christian, it's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2502.699,"endTime":2505.94,"body":"important to me that those who are incarcerated are treated"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2505.94,"endTime":2510.559,"body":"fairly and with dignity,\" and so let's be equally loud about that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2510.559,"endTime":2512.92,"body":"as we are about arresting criminals."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2512.92,"endTime":2514.4,"body":"No, that's, that's, that's a great point, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2514.4,"endTime":2516.92,"body":"think a helpful balance, too. I think a, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2516.92,"endTime":2521.659,"body":"correct intuition about law and order, but also, a, I think a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2521.659,"endTime":2524.318,"body":"correct intuition about inmates also"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2524.98,"endTime":2526.739,"body":"bearing the image of God-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2526.739,"endTime":2526.75,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2526.75,"endTime":2529.42,"body":"... And having intrinsic value, so good stuff."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2529.42,"endTime":2532.278,"body":"All right, C- you sent me both of these, a couple of very"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2532.278,"endTime":2533.659,"body":"brief notices,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2534.219,"endTime":2536.26,"body":"and sort of brief obituaries."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2536.26,"endTime":2536.639,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2536.639,"endTime":2538.94,"body":"One is the death of a woman, Jennifer"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2538.94,"endTime":2542.159,"body":"Lyall, a vice president of Lifeway Resources, who was one"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2542.159,"endTime":2545.3,"body":"of the first women to speak out against sexual abuse in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2545.3,"endTime":2548.5,"body":"Southern Baptist Convention at the hands of one of her seminary"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2548.5,"endTime":2551.679,"body":"professors. She began to speak out in 2018."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2552.318,"endTime":2555.639,"body":"Initially, the press sort of downplayed the abuse, later"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2555.639,"endTime":2559.778,"body":"apologized for minimizing it, but acknowledged that her"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2559.778,"endTime":2562.239,"body":"reputation had been tarnished in the process. She passed away"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2562.239,"endTime":2565.94,"body":"this week from a series of strokes, I think unrelated to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2565.94,"endTime":2571.44,"body":"the abuse that she suffered, at the much too early age of 47."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2571.44,"endTime":2573.98,"body":"And then, Walter Brueggemann, well, another one you sent to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2573.98,"endTime":2576.818,"body":"me, Carmen. I think no... I know you have n- a number of his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2576.818,"endTime":2578.92,"body":"books in your library, a well-known Old Testament"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2578.92,"endTime":2579.67,"body":"scholar."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2579.67,"endTime":2579.699,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2579.699,"endTime":2582.219,"body":"Say, not exactly, not exactly evangelical-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2582.219,"endTime":2582.3,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2582.3,"endTime":2584.26,"body":"... I think, in his theological convictions, but a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2584.26,"endTime":2587.719,"body":"passionate advocate for the poor and the marginalized, as well as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2587.719,"endTime":2590.719,"body":"a very insightful scholar. And I think, I think it's fair to say"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2590.719,"endTime":2593.92,"body":"that his life and passion represented the spirit of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2593.92,"endTime":2595.659,"body":"Old Testament prophets well-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2595.659,"endTime":2595.818,"body":"Yes, yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2595.818,"endTime":2597.44,"body":"... Even though we would disagree"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2597.44,"endTime":2600.539,"body":"with-... You know, several matters of-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2600.539,"endTime":2600.92,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2600.92,"endTime":2603.96,"body":"Old Testament interpretation and theology."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2603.96,"endTime":2604.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2604.059,"endTime":2607.219,"body":"So your take briefly on both of those."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2607.219,"endTime":2611.579,"body":"Yeah, I think Jen Lyle's death is so"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2611.579,"endTime":2613.26,"body":"tragic, and although"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2613.82,"endTime":2617.86,"body":"it's not directly linked to the abuse that she suffered, she"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2617.86,"endTime":2619.88,"body":"spoke many times of how crushing"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2620.4,"endTime":2624.82,"body":"the process has been of coming forward as a victim, of being"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2624.82,"endTime":2629.739,"body":"subjected to so much harassment after she came forward. And so I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2629.739,"endTime":2632.94,"body":"think it could be argued that her strokes were her body giving"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2632.94,"endTime":2633.36,"body":"up,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2634.179,"endTime":2639.32,"body":"under so much duress. It- the misreporting about her was done"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2639.32,"endTime":2642.8,"body":"by Baptist Press, and that's what led to the accusations that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2642.8,"endTime":2646.46,"body":"Lyle was a temptress and should be fired from Lifeway. She did"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2646.46,"endTime":2650.84,"body":"eventually lose her job, but her accusations were credible, and,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2651.8,"endTime":2655.8,"body":"proceedings were ongoing about that. And I... The SBC is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2655.8,"endTime":2660.619,"body":"meeting right now, this week as we record this, and, what"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2660.619,"endTime":2665.78,"body":"concerns me is that the convention seems so,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2666.46,"endTime":2670.679,"body":"so concerned about the cost of addressing abuse, and there's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2670.679,"endTime":2674.019,"body":"been some victim blaming. Like, \"If these women hadn't come"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2674.019,"endTime":2677.44,"body":"forward and said what they said, we wouldn't be in so much debt,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2677.44,"endTime":2680.34,"body":"or this wouldn't be costing us so much.\" And I think it's worth"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2680.34,"endTime":2686.199,"body":"just saying that the cost is 100% on the men who did the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2686.199,"endTime":2689.489,"body":"abusing and on those who covered up the abuse."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2690.699,"endTime":2694.28,"body":"So I'm glad we're mentioning her name on this episode. She"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2694.28,"endTime":2698.46,"body":"was a courageous woman, brilliant. She worked for a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2698.46,"endTime":2703.199,"body":"while with our very own Ed Stetzer, when he was at Lifeway,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2703.199,"endTime":2707.34,"body":"and so he remembers fondly working with her. The, the death"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2707.34,"endTime":2711.4,"body":"of Walter Brueggemann is a huge blow to Old Testament"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2711.4,"endTime":2715.139,"body":"studies. Every evangelical s- Old Testament scholar I know has"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2715.139,"endTime":2718.519,"body":"benefited from his work. I've got a whole stack of books next"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2718.519,"endTime":2721.88,"body":"to me. He's, he's best known for his book, The Prophetic"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2721.88,"endTime":2725.019,"body":"Imagination, which I would recommend just even as"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2725.019,"endTime":2729.34,"body":"devotional reading. It's... He, he has a way of showing us the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2729.34,"endTime":2731.34,"body":"power of the Old Testament prophets"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2731.86,"endTime":2735.559,"body":"and their courage in addressing the problems of their"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2735.559,"endTime":2739.8,"body":"generation. Another of my favorites is his book, From"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2739.8,"endTime":2743.139,"body":"Whom No Secrets Are Hid- Introducing the Psalms. He talks"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2743.139,"endTime":2745.139,"body":"about the Psalms as,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2745.84,"endTime":2750.5,"body":"orientation, disorientation, and reorientation, to the Lord. I,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2750.5,"endTime":2753.739,"body":"I plan to benefit from his work for many years to come, and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2753.739,"endTime":2756.659,"body":"I'm th- I'm thankful for his devotion to making the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2756.659,"endTime":2761.639,"body":"scriptures available, accessible, and for helping"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2761.639,"endTime":2765.44,"body":"people see again their relevance for life today."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2765.44,"endTime":2767.719,"body":"Great. Thank you. I know that one, that one touched"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2767.719,"endTime":2770.309,"body":"you maybe differently than it would a lot of our listeners-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2770.309,"endTime":2770.409,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2770.409,"endTime":2771.76,"body":"... Who may not be familiar with him-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2771.76,"endTime":2772.219,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2772.219,"endTime":2774.36,"body":"And his work. All right, you ready to answer some"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2774.36,"endTime":2775.139,"body":"questions?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2775.139,"endTime":2775.599,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2775.599,"endTime":2777.46,"body":"Got some great questions, and some of the, some"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2777.46,"endTime":2780.84,"body":"of these I'm really... I'm glad that you're here this week for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2780.84,"endTime":2783.739,"body":"some of these questions. All right, here's the first one-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2783.739,"endTime":2786.26,"body":"\"Sometimes it seems like a blessing to have so many Bible"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2786.26,"endTime":2789.099,"body":"translations. Comparing translations can help doing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2789.099,"endTime":2791.46,"body":"Bible study, for instance. At other times, the difference"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2791.46,"endTime":2794.059,"body":"between translations can be confusing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2794.719,"endTime":2798.059,"body":"A verse in the NASB or ESV sometimes sounds nothing like a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2798.059,"endTime":2801.36,"body":"verse in the New Living or The Message. So I'd like to know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2801.36,"endTime":2806.099,"body":"what is your preferred Bible translation, and why?\" Okay,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2807.079,"endTime":2807.84,"body":"go for it."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2807.84,"endTime":2807.969,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2807.969,"endTime":2807.969,"body":"Go for it."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2807.969,"endTime":2810.9,"body":"All right, so, the version that I teach"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2810.9,"endTime":2814.76,"body":"out of in class is the NIV. I like it for many reasons, but it"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2814.76,"endTime":2817.599,"body":"does a good job, I think, of communicating in language that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2817.599,"endTime":2819.989,"body":"makes sense to students today."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2820.5,"endTime":2823.909,"body":"But for any cases where I'm wondering, \"Why is this"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2823.909,"endTime":2827.139,"body":"translation different from that translation?\" If I don't have"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2827.139,"endTime":2830.26,"body":"Greek and Hebrew right there at my fingertips to look it up"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2830.26,"endTime":2833.079,"body":"myself, or for those who don't know Greek and Hebrew, I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2833.079,"endTime":2836.599,"body":"recommend the New English Translation, the NET Bible. It's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2836.599,"endTime":2839.98,"body":"available online with all of its study notes, and they have"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2839.98,"endTime":2842.519,"body":"translators' notes that will often-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2842.519,"endTime":2842.57,"body":"Nice"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2842.57,"endTime":2844.548,"body":"... Explain why they're making the choice"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2844.548,"endTime":2848.0,"body":"they're making about how to translate something. So while I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2848.0,"endTime":2851.579,"body":"don't always agree with the choice they made, I often do,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2851.579,"endTime":2853.98,"body":"and they usually explain why, you know,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2854.5,"endTime":2857.239,"body":"why such a difference between two different versions. So"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2857.239,"endTime":2858.82,"body":"that's the NET Bible."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2858.82,"endTime":2859.17,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2859.17,"endTime":2859.26,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2859.26,"endTime":2861.059,"body":"I, my... You know, my preference is the NIV as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2861.059,"endTime":2863.71,"body":"well. I've been using it for years and years."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2863.71,"endTime":2863.719,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2863.719,"endTime":2866.86,"body":"I find it to be very clear- ... Very true to the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2866.86,"endTime":2867.9,"body":"original text."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2867.9,"endTime":2871.079,"body":"The NIV committee meets every summer, the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2871.079,"endTime":2875.219,"body":"Committee on Bible Translation, to work through possible issues"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2875.219,"endTime":2877.8,"body":"wh- areas where it could be improved, where the English"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2877.8,"endTime":2881.019,"body":"language has changed, or there's now more scholarship available."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2881.019,"endTime":2884.9,"body":"So I appreciate the way that they are keeping on top of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2884.9,"endTime":2888.039,"body":"the evolution of the English language and making sure that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2888.039,"endTime":2890.82,"body":"we're still communicating effectively."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2890.82,"endTime":2892.679,"body":"All right, here's the second one- \"I've been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2892.679,"endTime":2895.639,"body":"struggling with questions over God's sovereignty.\" Well, join"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2895.639,"endTime":2896.579,"body":"the club."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2896.579,"endTime":2896.829,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2896.829,"endTime":2899.28,"body":"\"Uh, I believe God is sovereign, but I question"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2899.28,"endTime":2902.619,"body":"what we mean by that. Some use God's sovereignty as an excuse."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2902.619,"endTime":2905.659,"body":"We can't explain something, especially issues of suffering"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2905.659,"endTime":2908.84,"body":"and evil, so we use God's sovereignty as a crutch. Other"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2908.84,"endTime":2911.559,"body":"times, God's sovereignty is contrasted with free will. It"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2911.559,"endTime":2913.8,"body":"feels like the church holds that whatever happened must have been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2913.8,"endTime":2916.38,"body":"part of God's will, thus explaining away the things we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2916.38,"endTime":2919.679,"body":"don't understand. Personally, I find it hard to believe that God"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2919.679,"endTime":2922.639,"body":"being sovereign means he is orchestrating every small detail"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2922.639,"endTime":2925.26,"body":"of my life. In the end, my questions are, one, how do you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2925.26,"endTime":2929.139,"body":"define sovereignty? Two, what is the purview of the will of God?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2929.139,"endTime":2931.82,"body":"Is it over the minutiae of life? And three, how can the church"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2931.82,"endTime":2934.84,"body":"better communicate the truth of God's sovereignty and His will"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2934.84,"endTime":2937.76,"body":"for our lives?\" We may not have time, Carmen, for all three of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2937.76,"endTime":2941.5,"body":"those- ... But, give me your take on the answer to these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2941.5,"endTime":2942.46,"body":"questions."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2942.46,"endTime":2945.559,"body":"Yeah, so, m- the shorthand way of answering it is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2945.559,"endTime":2948.38,"body":"to say that I'm a Molinist- ... Which is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2948.94,"endTime":2948.949,"body":"s-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2949.61,"endTime":2950.739,"body":"s- a way of saying that I believe that-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2950.739,"endTime":2951.63,"body":"Join the club."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2951.63,"endTime":2954.239,"body":"[chuckles] I believe that God is sovereign,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2954.239,"endTime":2957.139,"body":"that He's able to do whatever He wants to do,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2957.659,"endTime":2962.8,"body":"but that He has given us free will, and so He-... He's working"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2962.8,"endTime":2967.239,"body":"within the freedom that he's given us. So Molinism talks"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2967.239,"endTime":2968.96,"body":"about middle knowledge,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2969.579,"endTime":2974.48,"body":"which is that the, this idea that God knows what we're likely"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2974.48,"endTime":2977.92,"body":"to choose of our own free will, and then he's able to work with"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2977.92,"endTime":2981.679,"body":"those choices to bend them towards the ends that he has in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2981.679,"endTime":2985.26,"body":"mind. So he's not surprised by anything that's happening, but"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2985.26,"endTime":2988.15,"body":"he's not micromanaging everything that we do."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2989.26,"endTime":2991.559,"body":"Yeah, I think, now, to be clear, I think there are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2991.559,"endTime":2994.92,"body":"some Calvinists who would take a quite different view of that."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":2994.92,"endTime":2995.48,"body":"Yes, yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2996.099,"endTime":2997.739,"body":"But I think Molinism, I think, makes a lot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2997.739,"endTime":3001.42,"body":"of sense biblically and theologically. I would suggest"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3001.42,"endTime":3003.519,"body":"that there are two different types of the sovereignty of God,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3003.519,"endTime":3004.34,"body":"the decreed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3005.34,"endTime":3008.32,"body":"will of God, which are the things that he directly decrees"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3008.32,"endTime":3010.639,"body":"and causes, and the permissive will of God- ... Which are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3010.639,"endTime":3011.079,"body":"things that he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3011.599,"endTime":3015.179,"body":"permits. But he is working in all the details of our life for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3015.179,"endTime":3018.699,"body":"our good and for his glory. It doesn't say all things are good."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3018.699,"endTime":3020.78,"body":"It says, \"All things work together-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3020.78,"endTime":3021.199,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3021.199,"endTime":3022.82,"body":"... For good.\" And that's a, that's an important"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3022.82,"endTime":3026.239,"body":"distinction. And this side of eternity, you know, we just, we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3026.239,"endTime":3030.059,"body":"just don't know how all the, all the puzzle pieces of our lives"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3030.599,"endTime":3034.019,"body":"fit together. We'll see that when we're on the other side of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3034.019,"endTime":3037.28,"body":"eternity. And I, and I don't believe... God does not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3037.28,"endTime":3039.84,"body":"have preferences over all the details of our life. I don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3039.84,"endTime":3042.429,"body":"think God has preferences about what you eat for lunch-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3042.429,"endTime":3042.849,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3042.849,"endTime":3042.849,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3043.539,"endTime":3046.42,"body":"Or, you know, what you know, what you do for your, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3046.42,"endTime":3050.76,"body":"know, off-work hours, as long as it is corresponding with his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3050.76,"endTime":3051.579,"body":"Word."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3051.579,"endTime":3051.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3051.88,"endTime":3053.98,"body":"God's pref- I think his strongest preferences have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3053.98,"endTime":3057.559,"body":"to do with our moral lives, our character, and I would suggest"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3057.559,"endTime":3060.219,"body":"most of what constitutes the will of God, not all of it, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3060.219,"endTime":3063.4,"body":"the vast majority of it, constitutes what's directly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3063.4,"endTime":3064.86,"body":"taught in the Scriptures."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3064.86,"endTime":3065.07,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3065.98,"endTime":3069.94,"body":"Yeah, I think he calls us to bear his name well, and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3069.94,"endTime":3073.039,"body":"that is something we can do no matter what career path we're"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3073.039,"endTime":3076.739,"body":"in, no matter what- where we choose to have lunch. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3076.739,"endTime":3080.239,"body":"there's this broader picture of wanting to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3080.239,"endTime":3083.36,"body":"live in concert with his character and his will."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3083.36,"endTime":3085.019,"body":"Hopefully, that helps answer the question"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3085.019,"endTime":3087.969,"body":"without having to have a full semester course on-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3087.969,"endTime":3088.01,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3088.01,"endTime":3090.099,"body":"... The sovereignty and providence of God."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3090.099,"endTime":3090.42,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3090.42,"endTime":3092.639,"body":"All right, here's a final one, Carmen- How should we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3092.639,"endTime":3096.28,"body":"think biblically about paying taxes, specifically in light of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3096.28,"endTime":3098.519,"body":"the role of taxation in America's founding?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3099.32,"endTime":3101.659,"body":"From Jesus' comment, \"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's,\" it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3101.659,"endTime":3104.84,"body":"appears he had no qualms about citizens paying taxes, even"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3104.84,"endTime":3108.26,"body":"unfair and oppressive ones, as Rome's were. Not to reduce the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3108.26,"endTime":3111.28,"body":"American Revolution to merely a matter of taxes, but it is- it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3111.28,"endTime":3114.36,"body":"fair to say that taxation was a component of the Founding"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3114.36,"endTime":3117.519,"body":"Fathers' decision to revolt. How can Christians reconcile the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3117.519,"endTime":3121.4,"body":"seeming disconnect between Jesus' teaching on taxes and the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3121.4,"endTime":3123.579,"body":"actions of the Founding Fathers?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3124.26,"endTime":3127.44,"body":"Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think this is such a fascinating"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3127.44,"endTime":3130.599,"body":"question. I hadn't thought about it before. I don't feel any"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3130.599,"endTime":3134.588,"body":"particular need to defend the Founding Fathers and the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3134.588,"endTime":3138.519,"body":"decisions that they made as being biblical, in every case. I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3138.519,"endTime":3142.179,"body":"don't think they always were biblical. But I don't think that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3142.179,"endTime":3145.579,"body":"when Jesus said, \"Render to Caesar what is Caesar's,\" he was"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3145.579,"endTime":3146.719,"body":"making a statement"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3147.38,"endTime":3151.92,"body":"about the necessity of paying taxes, whatever they are,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3151.92,"endTime":3156.159,"body":"wherever you live, for the rest of human history. He is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3156.159,"endTime":3159.079,"body":"addressing a particular situation in which he's being"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3159.079,"endTime":3162.9,"body":"baited by the Jewish religious leaders to try to say something"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3162.9,"endTime":3165.9,"body":"against Rome, and his... He's basically saying, \"I don't"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3165.9,"endTime":3169.059,"body":"really care about money. Caesar can have the money.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3169.579,"endTime":3172.46,"body":"he- this is not a statement about,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3173.8,"endTime":3178.659,"body":"about Christian involvement in the political process, you know-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3178.659,"endTime":3178.67,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3178.67,"endTime":3180.38,"body":"... In every period going forward."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3180.38,"endTime":3182.88,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's really helpful, I think, to, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3182.88,"endTime":3185.76,"body":"know, both those things about the intentions of the Founders."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3185.76,"endTime":3186.159,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3186.159,"endTime":3187.989,"body":"I think that Christianity was part of the air"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3187.989,"endTime":3189.8,"body":"that they were breathing, but that doesn't mean that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3189.8,"endTime":3192.28,"body":"everything they did was rooted-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3192.28,"endTime":3192.449,"body":"No"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3192.449,"endTime":3194.119,"body":"... In some, in some passage of Scripture."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3194.119,"endTime":3194.3,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3194.3,"endTime":3195.76,"body":"I think if the Founders had been against"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3195.76,"endTime":3198.34,"body":"taxation in principle, they would have changed it."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3198.34,"endTime":3200.0,"body":"Right. Right, and they-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3200.0,"endTime":3201.28,"body":"When they got their independence."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3201.28,"endTime":3203.38,"body":"What they're against is taxation without"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3203.38,"endTime":3207.28,"body":"representation, which I think is a fair, a fair critique-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3207.28,"endTime":3207.349,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3207.349,"endTime":3209.36,"body":"... Of the way that the British government was"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3209.88,"endTime":3210.98,"body":"operating the colonies."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3210.98,"endTime":3212.739,"body":"Yeah, I think they object... It seems to me, I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3212.739,"endTime":3215.199,"body":"not, I'm not an expert on this, but it seems to me they object,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3215.199,"endTime":3217.9,"body":"the Founders objected to taxation as a means of keeping"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3217.9,"endTime":3219.92,"body":"them economically crippled-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3220.489,"endTime":3222.719,"body":"... And a means of keeping the British in power in the, in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3222.719,"endTime":3223.219,"body":"colonies."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3223.219,"endTime":3223.239,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3223.239,"endTime":3225.409,"body":"I think, to think more biblically about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3225.409,"endTime":3229.0,"body":"this, I would say that taxation is part of our obligation to the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3229.0,"endTime":3230.559,"body":"well-being of our communities-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3230.559,"endTime":3231.079,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3231.079,"endTime":3234.679,"body":"... And I think a form of loving our neighbors."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3234.679,"endTime":3235.32,"body":"Yes. Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3235.32,"endTime":3237.28,"body":"Now, in particular, I'll give an ex- an example of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3237.28,"endTime":3239.84,"body":"this. You know, my wife and I, we've been empty nesters for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3239.84,"endTime":3243.059,"body":"some time. We've had kids out of... Our kids haven't been in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3243.059,"endTime":3245.07,"body":"public schools for probably 15 years."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3245.07,"endTime":3245.539,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3245.539,"endTime":3249.349,"body":"Yet, we still pay our property taxes faithfully-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3249.349,"endTime":3252.139,"body":"... Part- and partly because it's, it's in our community's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3252.139,"endTime":3256.139,"body":"best interest to have healthy, functioning public schools who"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3256.139,"endTime":3258.36,"body":"do their job well in educating students."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3258.36,"endTime":3259.159,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3259.159,"endTime":3261.699,"body":"And, and even if they're not educating our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3261.699,"endTime":3265.36,"body":"particular students, they did in the past. But this is a form, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3265.36,"endTime":3267.679,"body":"think, of loving my next-door neighbor-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3267.679,"endTime":3267.76,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3267.76,"endTime":3269.94,"body":"... Who's got three of her, three of her kids that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3269.94,"endTime":3271.82,"body":"are still in high school. So-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3271.82,"endTime":3274.159,"body":"Yeah, and I think we can add to that now, that,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3274.159,"endTime":3277.07,"body":"that you and I both pay taxes, but we're not in jail."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3277.07,"endTime":3277.099,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3277.099,"endTime":3280.38,"body":"And our taxes pay for local jails, and those jails"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3280.38,"endTime":3280.769,"body":"should have-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3280.769,"endTime":3280.769,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3280.769,"endTime":3282.46,"body":"... Sunlight and access to fresh water-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3282.46,"endTime":3282.469,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3282.469,"endTime":3282.679,"body":"... Right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3282.679,"endTime":3282.739,"body":"That-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3282.739,"endTime":3285.179,"body":"So, so as taxpayers, we have the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3285.179,"endTime":3290.579,"body":"opportunity, in this particular, political moment, to weigh in on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3290.579,"endTime":3294.039,"body":"how those taxes are spent and to use our voices to advocate for"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3294.039,"endTime":3295.46,"body":"the needs of our neighbors."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3295.46,"endTime":3297.9,"body":"Yeah, and that doesn't mean that you have to be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3297.9,"endTime":3300.739,"body":"in support of everything that our tax dollars are going"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3300.739,"endTime":3302.659,"body":"toward, which I'm not."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3302.659,"endTime":3303.019,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3303.019,"endTime":3306.159,"body":"Both at the state and the federal level. So-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3306.159,"endTime":3306.639,"body":"That's helpful."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3306.639,"endTime":3309.559,"body":"Anyway, hopefully, that answers the question."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3310.179,"endTime":3312.44,"body":"And Carmen, this has been so fun-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3312.44,"endTime":3312.489,"body":"It has"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3312.489,"endTime":3314.36,"body":"... Having you with us. I so appreciate the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3314.36,"endTime":3317.139,"body":"conversation. I'm sure our listeners have enjoyed it, too,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3317.139,"endTime":3319.719,"body":"and, we will look forward to having you guest host again for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3319.719,"endTime":3322.26,"body":"us. This was, this was really fun, and so appreciate your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3322.26,"endTime":3323.159,"body":"insights today."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":3323.159,"endTime":3324.639,"body":"All right. Thanks for having me, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3324.639,"endTime":3327.48,"body":"You bet. This has been an episode of the Weekly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3327.48,"endTime":3330.38,"body":"Cultural Update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3330.38,"endTime":3333.659,"body":"Biola University, offering programs in Southern California"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3333.659,"endTime":3335.599,"body":"and online, including our Master's in Christian"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3335.599,"endTime":3336.36,"body":"Apologetics,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3337.199,"endTime":3340.34,"body":"programs from our Institute for Spiritual Formation, of course,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3340.34,"endTime":3342.84,"body":"Master's degrees in Old Testament, New Testament,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3342.84,"endTime":3347.199,"body":"Systematic Theology, Christian Ministry, and even Marriage and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3347.199,"endTime":3349.539,"body":"Family Therapy. There's been... There's probably one or two more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3349.539,"endTime":3352.119,"body":"that I think [chuckles] I might be missing. Visit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3352.119,"endTime":3357.559,"body":"biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more about any of those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3357.559,"endTime":3360.78,"body":"programs. If you wanna submit comments to us, ask questions,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3360.78,"endTime":3362.98,"body":"please keep your questions coming. They are great"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3362.98,"endTime":3365.4,"body":"questions, and we love interacting with them. Or to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3365.4,"endTime":3368.659,"body":"make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3368.659,"endTime":3372.9,"body":"like us to consider, email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3372.9,"endTime":3375.98,"body":"That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3375.98,"endTime":3378.219,"body":"you enjoyed today's conversation, please give us a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3378.219,"endTime":3380.82,"body":"rating on your podcast app, and feel free to share it with a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3380.82,"endTime":3384.78,"body":"friend, and join us on Tuesday for our regular episode. Thanks"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3384.78,"endTime":3387.84,"body":"so much for listening, and remember, think biblically about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3387.84,"endTime":3395.42,"body":"everything. [upbeat music]"}]}