{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.3,"endTime":3.759,"body":"[upbeat music] Despite medicine's remarkable"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3.759,"endTime":7.639,"body":"advances, has it actually taken a wrong turn and lost something"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":7.639,"endTime":10.8,"body":"pretty important? What is the dominant worldview of medicine"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":10.8,"endTime":13.38,"body":"and healthcare today, and how has that affected both patients"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":13.38,"endTime":16.92,"body":"and healthcare providers? And what are the virtues that should"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.92,"endTime":20.3,"body":"govern healthcare to get it back on track? We'll answer these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":20.3,"endTime":22.64,"body":"questions and a whole lot more with our guest, Dr. Brent"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":22.64,"endTime":25.66,"body":"Waters, Emeritus Professor and Founding Director of the Stead"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":25.66,"endTime":29.589,"body":"Center for Ethics and Values at Garrett-Evangelical Seminary."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":29.589,"endTime":31.739,"body":"Brent will be a plenary speaker at the National Conference of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":31.739,"endTime":35.039,"body":"the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity coming up in a few"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":35.039,"endTime":37.659,"body":"weeks. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and this is Think Biblically"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":37.659,"endTime":40.88,"body":"from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Brent,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":40.88,"endTime":44.039,"body":"welcome. Really glad to have you with us. Looking so forward to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":44.039,"endTime":45.64,"body":"this conversation."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":45.64,"endTime":47.5,"body":"Well, thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":47.5,"endTime":50.64,"body":"Yeah. You say in your work that healthcare in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":50.64,"endTime":54.119,"body":"last twenty or thirty years has made incredible advances, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":54.119,"endTime":58.439,"body":"nevertheless, has taken a wrong turn. Okay, what do you mean by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":58.439,"endTime":60.119,"body":"that, and how so?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":61.479,"endTime":63.219,"body":"Well, I think it's taken a wrong turn in that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":63.219,"endTime":64.5,"body":"it's created,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":65.7,"endTime":69.319,"body":"false expectations of what it can really deliver. And what I"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":69.319,"endTime":72.239,"body":"mean by that is that there's an implicit promise that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":73.159,"endTime":77.14,"body":"most diseases w-- if not now, will eventually be, preventable,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":77.14,"endTime":79.48,"body":"that, we won't have to deal with,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":80.28,"endTime":84.219,"body":"prolonged illness, that almost anything can be corrected. So"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":84.219,"endTime":84.5,"body":"that,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":85.56,"endTime":88.84,"body":"in a, in a sense, what they're really saying is that the human"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":88.84,"endTime":92.68,"body":"body is not an object of care as it has traditionally been and"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":92.68,"endTime":96.84,"body":"within medical care, but is now a problem to be solved. And once"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":96.84,"endTime":100.959,"body":"we can solve that problem, then we'll have better lives."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":100.959,"endTime":104.079,"body":"Personally, I think what that really is doing is"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":104.079,"endTime":108.68,"body":"launching a very naive war against finitude and mortality,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":108.68,"endTime":112.079,"body":"and we were created by God to be finite and mortal creatures."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":112.079,"endTime":114.54,"body":"Now, it doesn't mean medicine shouldn't do what it can to"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":114.54,"endTime":117.68,"body":"relieve suffering, to cure illnesses, but it means"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":117.68,"endTime":120.7,"body":"ultimately, those are not problems to be solved. It's part"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":120.7,"endTime":124.04,"body":"of our identity as human beings. It's, it's central to the human"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":124.04,"endTime":125.519,"body":"condition."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":125.519,"endTime":126.92,"body":"Now, that... I think that's a really important"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":126.92,"endTime":129.599,"body":"worldview component to this that we'll get back to in just, in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":129.599,"endTime":130.469,"body":"just a minute."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":130.469,"endTime":130.758,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":130.758,"endTime":133.439,"body":"But, you know, you've recently, n-not too long"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":133.439,"endTime":137.599,"body":"ago, had your own experience of serious illness. You know, as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":137.599,"endTime":140.58,"body":"you described it to me, the physicians were preparing your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":140.58,"endTime":142.269,"body":"wife to be a widow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":142.96,"endTime":143.829,"body":"And,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":144.769,"endTime":147.879,"body":"how has... And so it strikes me, I guess, that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":147.879,"endTime":149.879,"body":"you've been the beneficiary of many of these incredible"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":149.879,"endTime":153.5,"body":"advances of medicine, yet in the same breath, you say it's taken"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":153.5,"endTime":156.099,"body":"a wrong turn. So how has your own experience"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":156.62,"endTime":160.78,"body":"with really serious illness, not too long ago, influenced your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":160.78,"endTime":164.099,"body":"thinking about healthcare?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":164.099,"endTime":166.3,"body":"Okay, to tell a long story briefly, and I'll do"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":166.3,"endTime":167.5,"body":"my best. [chuckles] As,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":168.039,"endTime":171.039,"body":"I was admitted to the hospital with what eventually proved to"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":171.039,"endTime":175.5,"body":"be Legionnaires' disease. So I spent nine days in ICU, five of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":175.5,"endTime":177.86,"body":"them on a ventilator. That's when they were trying"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":178.56,"endTime":181.28,"body":"to prepare my wife that it's a good likelihood I would be a..."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":181.28,"endTime":184.919,"body":"She would be a widow. But obviously, I fooled the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":184.919,"endTime":185.969,"body":"doctors and-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":185.969,"endTime":185.969,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":185.969,"endTime":186.699,"body":"... Pulled through."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":186.699,"endTime":187.419,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":187.419,"endTime":190.199,"body":"So but then it was three weeks of acute rehab"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":191.159,"endTime":194.18,"body":"in the hospital, and then 12 weeks of outpatient, physical"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":194.18,"endTime":198.18,"body":"therapy. Now, what I want to do is, first of all, I'm gonna give"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":198.18,"endTime":200.819,"body":"credit to the doctors because cre- you need to give credit"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":200.819,"endTime":203.56,"body":"where credit is due, and that is that they were the ones that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":203.56,"endTime":207.84,"body":"pulled me, you know, back from the abyss. And I recognize"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":207.84,"endTime":212.08,"body":"that. But the doctors were somewhat like Melchizedek. They"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":212.08,"endTime":214.86,"body":"would kind of float into the room from- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":214.86,"endTime":215.049,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":215.049,"endTime":217.58,"body":"-nowhere, spend a few minutes mumbling with the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":217.58,"endTime":220.56,"body":"nurses and looking at charts, and then leave again, like"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":220.56,"endTime":224.12,"body":"Melchizedek. The people who were there day in and day out were"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":224.12,"endTime":225.319,"body":"the nurses and therapists,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":226.28,"endTime":229.479,"body":"and they were really very much focused on the mundane things,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":229.479,"endTime":229.68,"body":"like"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":230.199,"endTime":234.219,"body":"helping me get to the bathroom. I had to literally learn how..."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":234.219,"endTime":238.46,"body":"Relearn how to do everything, how to walk, how to feed myself."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":238.46,"endTime":242.0,"body":"And by the way, some of the best advice I received when you're"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":242.0,"endTime":246.719,"body":"learning to feed yourself again is, food to face, not face to"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":246.719,"endTime":247.639,"body":"food. And I mean, it's-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":247.639,"endTime":247.65,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":247.65,"endTime":249.879,"body":"... It's really very helpful advice."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":251.099,"endTime":251.719,"body":"But also,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":252.68,"endTime":255.479,"body":"what that really reinforced in me was something I was already"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":255.479,"endTime":258.92,"body":"beginning to worry about as an ethicist, and that was- what do,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":258.92,"endTime":261.439,"body":"what did I think about most of the time? And most of the time,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":261.439,"endTime":262.8,"body":"I was taught to think about"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":263.579,"endTime":268.42,"body":"really big issues, war and peace, genetic engineering,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":268.42,"endTime":271.019,"body":"radical life extension, transhumanism, and all this. And"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":271.019,"endTime":273.139,"body":"I'm not saying those are unimportant, but I began to"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":273.139,"endTime":276.519,"body":"realize I had almost no firsthand experience of any of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":276.519,"endTime":276.8,"body":"this,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":277.5,"endTime":280.48,"body":"and I was basically overlooking and ignoring where I spend most"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":280.48,"endTime":284.1,"body":"of my time, which is in mundane things like cleaning the house,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":284.1,"endTime":288.639,"body":"running errands, taking care of the physical, needs of,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":288.639,"endTime":291.459,"body":"of being a human. And that's what the nurses and therapists"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":291.459,"endTime":294.68,"body":"really reinforced in me, and that prompted me to think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":294.68,"endTime":297.579,"body":"differently about bioethics. I do think differently now that,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":297.579,"endTime":300.379,"body":"you know, the mundane is terribly important, and why is"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":300.379,"endTime":303.899,"body":"that the case? Because I think that's what we l- we learn some"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":303.899,"endTime":305.709,"body":"invaluable lessons about neighbor love"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":306.3,"endTime":309.92,"body":"when you take care of the daily things of life. You know,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":309.92,"endTime":312.06,"body":"when you keep the house clean, when you put a meal on the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":312.06,"endTime":315.319,"body":"table, when you keep a roof over your head, that's expressing a"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":315.319,"endTime":319.579,"body":"love of neighbor. And I think that's received short shrift in,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":319.579,"endTime":322.8,"body":"in both of our disciplines of ethics, and I'd like to recover"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":322.8,"endTime":326.459,"body":"that and say, \"There's something significant here.\" And medicine"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":326.459,"endTime":330.579,"body":"taught me that lesson in a very strong way."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":330.579,"endTime":331.819,"body":"So there's something, you... There's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":331.819,"endTime":334.759,"body":"something about the dailiness of life, it sounds like-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":334.759,"endTime":334.939,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":334.939,"endTime":338.319,"body":"... That is not really part of the fall, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":338.319,"endTime":342.24,"body":"it's part of our, just our condition of being human and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":342.24,"endTime":347.079,"body":"facing our limits and eventually facing our mortality. Correct?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":347.079,"endTime":349.54,"body":"Correct. And it's, it's also the preschool"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":349.54,"endTime":352.639,"body":"learning the virtues. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":353.939,"endTime":354.36,"body":"because-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":354.36,"endTime":356.629,"body":"Spell out, spell out more what you mean by that."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":356.629,"endTime":360.3,"body":"Well, a virtue is basically learning a good habit."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":360.3,"endTime":363.079,"body":"It's becoming habituation so that you don't, you don't"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":363.079,"endTime":367.235,"body":"calculate, \"Should, should I be good?\" You are good.... Because"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":367.235,"endTime":369.896,"body":"that's, that's how it forms and shapes you. Well, the daily"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":369.896,"endTime":372.615,"body":"mundane things of life, you learn habits, like making the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":372.615,"endTime":376.406,"body":"bed every day, you know, being at a meal, cooking, cleaning,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":376.406,"endTime":378.776,"body":"and these all becomes part of habituation, so it kind of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":378.776,"endTime":380.555,"body":"prepares you for the virtues."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":381.555,"endTime":384.875,"body":"And I think it's, again, that has received short shrift, is"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":384.875,"endTime":387.855,"body":"that, [chuckles] And, you know, the interesting writer who"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":387.855,"endTime":390.495,"body":"taught me that was Miss Manners, who-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":390.495,"endTime":391.225,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":391.225,"endTime":394.156,"body":"... Who was actually a trained philosopher."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":394.156,"endTime":396.755,"body":"And, and she would use this as saying, \"Look, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":396.755,"endTime":400.096,"body":"the reason we have good behavior at the supper table is because"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":400.096,"endTime":402.596,"body":"otherwise it's a wild and woolly place, and, you know,\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":402.596,"endTime":403.386,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":403.386,"endTime":404.875,"body":"\"and there's a lot of dangerous instruments at"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":404.875,"endTime":407.896,"body":"the table, so you have to, [chuckles] to learn good,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":407.896,"endTime":410.516,"body":"good behavior.\" And I think there's something to that. Even"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":410.516,"endTime":413.055,"body":"in her jovial kind of way, she was teaching some important"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":413.055,"endTime":413.745,"body":"lessons about"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":414.855,"endTime":418.875,"body":"it is in the ordinary daily routines of life that we learn,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":418.875,"endTime":421.105,"body":"in some ways, what is most important about life."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":422.415,"endTime":424.696,"body":"Well, that's, that's really insightful. Let me- we'll"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":424.696,"endTime":427.456,"body":"come back to some of the virtues here in just a minute, but you-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":427.456,"endTime":428.615,"body":"one of the other points you make"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":429.156,"endTime":430.995,"body":"[clears throat] is that increasingly, and this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":430.995,"endTime":433.776,"body":"describes your experience, I think, physicians"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":434.295,"endTime":437.435,"body":"increasingly cure rather than care."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":437.435,"endTime":437.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":438.235,"endTime":440.836,"body":"But w- don't most people think that curing is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":440.836,"endTime":441.755,"body":"actually the point"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":442.336,"endTime":443.815,"body":"of medicine?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":444.555,"endTime":446.115,"body":"How, how would you respond to that?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":446.115,"endTime":448.396,"body":"Yeah, and it is the point of medicine, but it's"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":448.396,"endTime":450.355,"body":"a rather modern development."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":451.315,"endTime":454.415,"body":"I mean, I think... I don't know how people figured this out, but"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":454.415,"endTime":457.235,"body":"there are some clever people who figured it out. It's about 1912,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":457.956,"endTime":461.555,"body":"where physicians actually helped more people than they killed."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":461.555,"endTime":462.336,"body":"Oh. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":462.336,"endTime":463.495,"body":"And, and, uh- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":463.495,"endTime":466.016,"body":"That's quite, that's quite an arresting statistic."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":466.016,"endTime":468.156,"body":"It is. It is an arresting statistic, but I think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":468.156,"endTime":471.276,"body":"what we've come to expect is that anything is curable."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":472.755,"endTime":475.505,"body":"So if not now, then later with technological"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":475.505,"endTime":478.355,"body":"development. So for example, we now have a shorthand referring"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":478.355,"endTime":481.975,"body":"to aging as a disease. Well, that implies that if it can be"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":481.975,"endTime":484.175,"body":"treated, it can be cured eventually, and what does"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":484.175,"endTime":487.336,"body":"that mean to really cure aging? I think, again, that's part of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":487.336,"endTime":490.235,"body":"the false expectation that's built into some of the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":490.235,"endTime":494.076,"body":"confidence that we have in our technological, abilities. But"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":494.735,"endTime":498.795,"body":"there comes a point, I think, in everyone's life, whether it's"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":498.795,"endTime":501.336,"body":"through illness or injury, or just simply aging, when you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":501.336,"endTime":504.415,"body":"can't cure anymore. There's just no prospect."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":505.096,"endTime":508.276,"body":"So how do you care? And Paul Ramsey wrote a wonderful essay"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":508.276,"endTime":510.355,"body":"on this, on only caring for the dying."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":511.735,"endTime":514.956,"body":"And it's, again, it's, it's a way that we have of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":514.956,"endTime":517.956,"body":"maintaining the linkage of that wonderful phrase from St."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":517.956,"endTime":522.035,"body":"Augustine, \"The bonds of imperfection.\" And one of the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":522.035,"endTime":524.895,"body":"ways that we maintain those bonds is through the caring of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":524.895,"endTime":528.115,"body":"people in the daily things that we do, and particularly at"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":528.115,"endTime":530.596,"body":"the end of life. I mean, I think, I think there comes a"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":530.596,"endTime":535.326,"body":"time when it is more blessed to receive than to give, and that's"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":535.326,"endTime":537.416,"body":"an important lesson to learn, and I think we learn it most"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":537.416,"endTime":539.515,"body":"prominently in medicine."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":539.515,"endTime":541.635,"body":"Yeah, and I, you know, I reflect back, Brent, on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":541.635,"endTime":543.596,"body":"the experience of my own mother."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":543.596,"endTime":544.125,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":544.125,"endTime":547.416,"body":"She passed away not too long ago, from very"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":547.416,"endTime":548.755,"body":"serious dementia,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":549.495,"endTime":553.375,"body":"where she was, she was virtually incapable of doing hardly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":553.375,"endTime":554.495,"body":"anything for herself"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":555.035,"endTime":558.816,"body":"at the end of life, and she died from a really nasty flu bug"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":558.816,"endTime":562.855,"body":"that eventually took her out. [clears throat] But, well,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":562.855,"endTime":566.515,"body":"you know, they, the nurses and staff, you know, it had been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":566.515,"endTime":569.316,"body":"a been a long time since a physician had seen her. And it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":569.316,"endTime":573.015,"body":"was the nurses and the staff and my sister, God bless my"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":573.015,"endTime":577.416,"body":"sister, who's qualifies for sainthood, who cared for her"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":577.416,"endTime":580.816,"body":"with the da- sort of the daily stuff of life- ... That still"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":580.816,"endTime":583.676,"body":"had to go on with her. I mean, she still had to be fed."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":584.456,"endTime":588.936,"body":"She could feed herself, sort of, but she had lost a lot, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":588.936,"endTime":593.336,"body":"her memory. She'd lost, basically lost 50 years of her"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":593.336,"endTime":595.796,"body":"memory of all of our growing up,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":596.436,"endTime":599.115,"body":"and adolescence and young- and adulthood."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":599.936,"endTime":602.615,"body":"And it was, it was really challenging to care for her"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":602.615,"endTime":603.475,"body":"toward the end,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":604.035,"endTime":607.535,"body":"but I think my sister and staff really felt like these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":607.535,"endTime":612.696,"body":"were heroic people who exhibited some wonderful virtues and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":612.696,"endTime":617.255,"body":"embodied that notion of loving your neighbor in some really"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":617.255,"endTime":621.735,"body":"powerful ways. And so I mean, it strikes me that there's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":621.735,"endTime":623.326,"body":"l- a, actually a lot to be learned"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":624.015,"endTime":628.875,"body":"from the ordinary experience of aging and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":628.875,"endTime":633.676,"body":"mortality, that medicine increasingly, I think, bumps up"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":633.676,"endTime":637.375,"body":"against its own limits, too, that they are often loath to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":637.375,"endTime":638.015,"body":"admit."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":639.655,"endTime":641.956,"body":"Well, I... Yeah, and I think it goes back to,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":643.956,"endTime":647.316,"body":"medicine is like most things in our late modern world. It, it"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":647.316,"endTime":651.556,"body":"creates the illusion of control, of being in control, the ones"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":651.556,"endTime":653.456,"body":"being in control of one's, one's own"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":654.035,"endTime":654.875,"body":"fate or destiny."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":655.956,"endTime":658.775,"body":"And the reason that's problematic is that,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":660.316,"endTime":664.196,"body":"we really aren't. We, [chuckles] we really aren't in control."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":665.475,"endTime":665.735,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":666.515,"endTime":670.275,"body":"I think that the myth of that control, does it have some"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":670.275,"endTime":672.995,"body":"unwanted consequences for medicine? Yeah, I think it does."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":672.995,"endTime":673.785,"body":"I think that's why"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":674.436,"endTime":677.375,"body":"the options of assisted suicide and euthanasia are growing in"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":677.375,"endTime":680.956,"body":"popularity, because at least you can then control the time and"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":680.956,"endTime":685.395,"body":"means of your own death. Where I think, you know, hospice and"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":685.395,"endTime":687.414,"body":"palliative care is a far better option,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":688.375,"endTime":692.355,"body":"far more in line with Christian teaching and doctrine."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":692.355,"endTime":696.655,"body":"And, and I think what Christianity is predicated on is"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":696.655,"endTime":700.395,"body":"the notion that your life is not your own."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":700.395,"endTime":701.895,"body":"Yeah, I think the Bi- the Bible's really clear. It"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":701.895,"endTime":704.436,"body":"seems to me that we've been bought with a price-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":704.436,"endTime":704.475,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":704.475,"endTime":707.475,"body":"... And when Jesus says to deny yourself, what he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":707.475,"endTime":711.176,"body":"means by that, in my view, is that to deny ownership of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":711.176,"endTime":711.836,"body":"yourself-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":712.355,"endTime":712.436,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":712.436,"endTime":714.936,"body":"... And ultimately recognize that the ultimate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":714.936,"endTime":716.375,"body":"ownership of your life belongs"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":716.914,"endTime":717.735,"body":"to God."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":717.735,"endTime":717.755,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":717.755,"endTime":718.696,"body":"Now, you'd mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":719.336,"endTime":720.676,"body":"that the transhumanists"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":721.375,"endTime":723.956,"body":"have been historically the ones who"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":724.596,"endTime":728.515,"body":"had been, had been lobbying for, cure, basically curing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":728.515,"endTime":734.399,"body":"everything. And, um-... Finding a way to, exert mastery"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":735.059,"endTime":737.159,"body":"entirely over the process of aging"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":737.7,"endTime":740.2,"body":"and mortality. But that, you know, for a long time, Brent, as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":740.2,"endTime":743.059,"body":"you know, that was just the province of the transhumanists,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":743.059,"endTime":746.94,"body":"which, you know, w- I think we've largely dismissed as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":746.94,"endTime":750.419,"body":"extremists in some of their views. But you say now that this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":750.419,"endTime":755.779,"body":"is, really a part of more traditional medicine these days,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":755.779,"endTime":758.46,"body":"and not just the realm of the transhumanists. Explain what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":758.46,"endTime":759.58,"body":"more what you mean by that."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":760.559,"endTime":763.139,"body":"Yeah, I think, I think unwittingly, a lot of that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":763.139,"endTime":766.039,"body":"rhetoric has been adopted. Again, like in a phrase that you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":766.039,"endTime":766.48,"body":"see now"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":767.159,"endTime":769.779,"body":"fairly routinely, not only in the bioethical"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":769.779,"endTime":771.948,"body":"literature, but in medical literature, of aging as a"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":771.948,"endTime":773.58,"body":"disease."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":774.259,"endTime":777.24,"body":"That to me has, you know, implications that they haven't"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":777.24,"endTime":780.0,"body":"really thought through. Why would you use that? I think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":780.0,"endTime":783.86,"body":"really what they mean is it's a shorthand reference to a lot of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":783.86,"endTime":787.639,"body":"things that are associated with aging. But I think that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":787.639,"endTime":790.58,"body":"increasingly, they're looking as aging, again, as a problem that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":790.58,"endTime":793.399,"body":"eventually can be solved. So you... You know, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":793.399,"endTime":796.7,"body":"old enough to now to say that's nonsense. No, the new 70s is not"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":796.7,"endTime":798.679,"body":"the old 50s. That's just baloney."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":798.679,"endTime":799.159,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":799.96,"endTime":802.179,"body":"And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":803.159,"endTime":806.08,"body":"it again, creates these expectations that somehow not"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":806.08,"endTime":809.2,"body":"only can we live longer, but we can live with a certain kind of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":809.2,"endTime":810.72,"body":"vigor, uh-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":810.72,"endTime":812.379,"body":"Yeah, we can live longer, better."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":812.379,"endTime":815.279,"body":"Yeah, yeah. So the transhumanists, really what"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":815.279,"endTime":819.318,"body":"they're arguing ultimately is for the extinction of human"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":819.318,"endTime":822.47,"body":"beings so that you can create something better than human."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":822.47,"endTime":824.318,"body":"'Cause really, that's what it would take. If you want to"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":824.318,"endTime":827.72,"body":"eliminate finitude, and you want to eliminate mortality, you're"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":827.72,"endTime":829.639,"body":"really eliminating humans."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":829.639,"endTime":832.659,"body":"Exactly. So that I think that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":832.659,"endTime":833.6,"body":"costs-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":833.6,"endTime":833.649,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":833.649,"endTime":836.46,"body":"... That you see in this wrong turn-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":837.059,"endTime":837.279,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":837.279,"endTime":838.86,"body":"... In healthcare. What are so- what are some of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":838.86,"endTime":841.539,"body":"the other costs that you see?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":843.559,"endTime":844.779,"body":"I see increasingly a kind of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":844.779,"endTime":847.21,"body":"consumerism going on in medicine that,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":848.1,"endTime":848.94,"body":"kind of,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":849.6,"endTime":852.48,"body":"erodes the physician-patient relationship."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":853.74,"endTime":857.919,"body":"I mean, in our- in the healthcare provider that I use,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":857.919,"endTime":861.759,"body":"w- they hired a new young cardiologist that I"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":861.759,"endTime":865.7,"body":"really like. He's, he's a Notre Dame boy, and he didn't re- you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":865.7,"endTime":867.879,"body":"know, he kind of didn't know that he'd have to take a couple"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":867.879,"endTime":870.559,"body":"of philosophy courses [chuckles] you know, going to Notre Dame-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":870.559,"endTime":870.71,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":870.71,"endTime":872.159,"body":"... He really wasn't prepared for that. But"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":872.159,"endTime":874.279,"body":"actually, we talked a little bit, and he kind of enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":874.279,"endTime":876.759,"body":"them. But, but no, he was telling me that when they- when"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":876.759,"endTime":880.1,"body":"he first hired on, the expectation was, I think, five"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":880.1,"endTime":880.919,"body":"patients per hour,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":882.22,"endTime":884.139,"body":"which I already thought was quite a few."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":884.139,"endTime":885.96,"body":"That's, that's quite a lot, actually."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":885.96,"endTime":888.22,"body":"Now, their- the expectation's creeped up to"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":888.22,"endTime":888.899,"body":"seven or eight,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":890.159,"endTime":892.259,"body":"and it's, it's kind of a mill, and I'm saying- \"Well, can you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":892.259,"endTime":893.44,"body":"really practice medicine"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":894.0,"endTime":896.5,"body":"seeing patients?\" And he says, \"No.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":896.5,"endTime":897.1,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":897.1,"endTime":897.34,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":897.34,"endTime":899.48,"body":"He, he was, he was open about admitting that?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":899.48,"endTime":901.46,"body":"Yeah, that really what you're doing is you're just"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":901.46,"endTime":904.379,"body":"kind of dependent upon technology, giving you the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":904.379,"endTime":906.58,"body":"readouts and giving you the information."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":907.1,"endTime":910.46,"body":"But, essentially, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":912.22,"endTime":914.5,"body":"I would think that the relationship in the past between"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":914.5,"endTime":917.139,"body":"physician and patient would be helping you kind of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":917.139,"endTime":919.919,"body":"sort out the options, and he has done that on occasion, and"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":919.919,"endTime":923.08,"body":"helped me think through of certain kinds of things. He's"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":923.08,"endTime":926.779,"body":"kind of in way- in many ways, a little bit of a throwback. But,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":928.1,"endTime":931.299,"body":"that's w- I think what's missing is that, again, is like... Go"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":931.299,"endTime":932.639,"body":"back to Paul Ramsey, is that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":933.22,"endTime":936.08,"body":"physicians need to be reminded that their patients are, first"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":936.08,"endTime":938.36,"body":"and foremost, persons."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":939.36,"endTime":942.12,"body":"And, and to lose that dimension, I think, is to lose something"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":942.12,"endTime":944.559,"body":"really crucial to medical care."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":944.559,"endTime":946.22,"body":"Yeah, preferably, they would recognize that they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":946.22,"endTime":949.519,"body":"are persons made in the image of God with intrinsic, essential"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":949.519,"endTime":951.818,"body":"dignity that needs to be respected"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":952.379,"endTime":955.24,"body":"regardless of their healthcare state-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":955.24,"endTime":955.318,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":955.318,"endTime":959.1,"body":"... Or ability to pay or insurance status or, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":959.1,"endTime":961.48,"body":"know, fill in the blank with other-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":961.48,"endTime":961.659,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":961.659,"endTime":965.419,"body":"... Criteria. Now, it l- it seems to me, from,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":965.419,"endTime":967.539,"body":"from... And, and I think it's borne out by what you described,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":967.539,"endTime":970.899,"body":"too, is medicine today is characterized by a, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":970.899,"endTime":974.759,"body":"world- a worldview that the ancients would probably find"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":974.759,"endTime":975.299,"body":"foreign."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":976.139,"endTime":976.46,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":976.46,"endTime":978.539,"body":"It's the worldview of physicalism-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":978.539,"endTime":978.62,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":978.62,"endTime":980.879,"body":"... Which basically says, we are, we are nothing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":980.879,"endTime":984.34,"body":"more than the physical stuff of which we are made, and re-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":984.34,"endTime":987.12,"body":"ultimately, a person is reducible to the laws of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":987.12,"endTime":988.399,"body":"chemistry and physics."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":990.059,"endTime":993.318,"body":"What are the downsides that you see of that worldview"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":994.019,"endTime":997.1,"body":"for healthcare?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":997.1,"endTime":1000.818,"body":"It, it means that you know are no longer dealing"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1000.818,"endTime":1004.98,"body":"with the person as a whole person, and what you've really"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1004.98,"endTime":1007.379,"body":"done is simply said, \"I'm going to set aside"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1008.0,"endTime":1010.799,"body":"something that may be terribly important to you to focus in on"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1010.799,"endTime":1014.96,"body":"something that I can manage and keep control of.\" And I think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1014.96,"endTime":1016.419,"body":"that's the downside of healthcare."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1016.419,"endTime":1018.86,"body":"For, for example?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1018.86,"endTime":1020.5,"body":"For example, it means that,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1023.94,"endTime":1026.94,"body":"I suspect that a lot of times when my physicians talk to me,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1026.94,"endTime":1029.48,"body":"they assume that the only thing that's important for me is"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1029.48,"endTime":1030.88,"body":"to live for as long as possible,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1032.7,"endTime":1034.859,"body":"when maybe that's not a concern I have at all."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1035.38,"endTime":1038.48,"body":"Maybe what I'm thinking of is how can I remain"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1039.92,"endTime":1043.0,"body":"in love and charity with God and neighbor? And that's what I want"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1043.0,"endTime":1045.7,"body":"you to enable me to do. It also means that basically, when"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1045.7,"endTime":1048.46,"body":"you're thinking about ethics, you cut out a lot of what's"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1048.46,"endTime":1051.319,"body":"important. So, for example, my,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1052.18,"endTime":1054.638,"body":"my general practitioner, who just recently retired a few"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1054.638,"endTime":1057.66,"body":"years ago, he knows what I do for a living, asked me what I"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1057.66,"endTime":1061.119,"body":"thought of assisted suicide, and I said, \"I'm not in favor of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1061.119,"endTime":1064.49,"body":"it.\" And he said, \"Well, why?\" And I looked at him and I said-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1064.49,"endTime":1066.96,"body":"\"Because I worry what it would do to your soul.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1066.96,"endTime":1068.759,"body":"Oh, [chuckles] touché!"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1068.759,"endTime":1069.509,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1070.18,"endTime":1071.16,"body":"And what-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1071.16,"endTime":1071.519,"body":"How did, how did-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1071.519,"endTime":1071.859,"body":"... At the moment-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1071.859,"endTime":1073.88,"body":"How did, how did he respond to that?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1073.88,"endTime":1075.539,"body":"Well, he kind of paused a moment. He's, he's sort"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1075.539,"endTime":1078.2,"body":"of a lapsed Catholic, and he said- and then he kind of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1078.2,"endTime":1080.4,"body":"said, \"Yeah, I can see that.\" And then he said, \"And, and"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1080.4,"endTime":1083.359,"body":"there is, after all, the oath I took.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1083.359,"endTime":1083.94,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1084.48,"endTime":1084.7,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1084.7,"endTime":1086.539,"body":"What a c- what a concept, huh?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1086.539,"endTime":1087.41,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1087.41,"endTime":1087.96,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1087.96,"endTime":1091.359,"body":"So, so I think, you know, again, the physicalism"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1091.359,"endTime":1095.299,"body":"fails at some of the most important times-... And, you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1095.299,"endTime":1097.759,"body":"know, the questions of, basically at the beginning and"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1097.759,"endTime":1101.279,"body":"end of life. You know, how do physicians really begin to"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1101.279,"endTime":1105.559,"body":"treat questions of infertility? How do, how do physicians really"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1105.559,"endTime":1108.549,"body":"respond to dying patients and things like that, or,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1108.549,"endTime":1112.64,"body":"or terribly, chronically ill patients? And I think you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1112.64,"endTime":1115.0,"body":"just can't tend to the physicalism because that means"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1115.0,"endTime":1117.519,"body":"then you're really not providing the care"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1118.539,"endTime":1121.319,"body":"that's required when you cannot cure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1121.319,"endTime":1122.74,"body":"Well, and what we've- well, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1122.74,"endTime":1125.64,"body":"empirical data to suggest that what patients actually care"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1125.64,"endTime":1128.319,"body":"about most at the end of life is not the medical stuff."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1128.319,"endTime":1129.079,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1129.079,"endTime":1131.16,"body":"It's the, you know, it's the spiritual stuff. It's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1131.16,"endTime":1134.599,"body":"the emotion. It's what's my legacy? You know, have I closed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1134.599,"endTime":1137.44,"body":"the loop relationally with the people I care about? You know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1137.44,"endTime":1140.099,"body":"so it's those things- ... That they actually care the most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1140.099,"endTime":1143.24,"body":"about. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm writing a piece on,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1144.42,"endTime":1147.16,"body":"on the combination of, family dysfunction"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1148.0,"endTime":1150.18,"body":"and ethics at the end of life."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1150.18,"endTime":1150.4,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1150.4,"endTime":1152.579,"body":"And, and I... But I'm doing this with a mar- a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1152.579,"endTime":1153.839,"body":"marriage and family therapist-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1154.539,"endTime":1154.569,"body":"Wonderful"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1154.569,"endTime":1157.119,"body":"... In con- in conjunction, because"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1158.019,"endTime":1162.259,"body":"there's nobody else on the healthcare scene."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1162.259,"endTime":1164.7,"body":"You know, maybe social workers can deal with some of this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1165.22,"endTime":1165.519,"body":"but,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1166.319,"endTime":1170.319,"body":"you know, physicians, you know, they just throw up their hands"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1170.319,"endTime":1173.299,"body":"when they see a dysfunctional family in the ICU. All they want"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1173.299,"endTime":1177.019,"body":"is a decision, and they're- they don't attend to any of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1177.019,"endTime":1179.92,"body":"And, you know, it t- it ta- it takes somebody with expertise, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1179.92,"endTime":1181.64,"body":"think, to sort out some of those things. But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1182.22,"endTime":1185.5,"body":"it- what it highlights is the only thing the physicians"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1185.5,"endTime":1190.44,"body":"care about is dec- what decision does the family make? They don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1190.44,"endTime":1193.819,"body":"care how they got there. Just tell, just tell me what you want"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1193.819,"endTime":1194.98,"body":"me to do,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1195.559,"endTime":1198.24,"body":"among these alternatives."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1198.24,"endTime":1199.16,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1199.16,"endTime":1202.039,"body":"So here, one other question. Maybe, maybe this sort"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1202.039,"endTime":1204.519,"body":"of relates to the view of physicalism, but,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1205.22,"endTime":1209.799,"body":"how has the view of the body changed over time,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1210.67,"endTime":1213.74,"body":"in terms of, in terms both of healthcare providers and in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1213.74,"endTime":1217.38,"body":"terms of patients?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1217.38,"endTime":1220.68,"body":"Yeah, that's a [sighs] that's a, that's a"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1220.68,"endTime":1223.339,"body":"simple question, and I wish I could give a simple answer, but"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1223.339,"endTime":1227.0,"body":"I don't know. So I'm gonna speculate a little bit. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1227.0,"endTime":1227.579,"body":"I think-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1227.579,"endTime":1229.019,"body":"That's what I'm asking you for."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1229.019,"endTime":1230.799,"body":"Okay. All right. I'm not gonna speak for"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1230.799,"endTime":1233.74,"body":"physicians, 'cause I don't know how they looked upon the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1233.74,"endTime":1235.359,"body":"body. I mean, my hunch is"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1236.839,"endTime":1240.099,"body":"they had some gallows humor [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1240.099,"endTime":1240.299,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1240.299,"endTime":1243.119,"body":"... Like most professions, but I don't know. I"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1243.119,"endTime":1245.339,"body":"think a physician would need to answer that question. I can say"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1245.339,"endTime":1250.619,"body":"as a patient who's lived a long time, how I've changed my"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1250.619,"endTime":1253.769,"body":"perception of the body, particularly in terms of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1253.769,"endTime":1256.339,"body":"healthcare, is that increasingly,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1259.64,"endTime":1262.5,"body":"I don't expect to be cured of anything or of everything"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1262.5,"endTime":1262.88,"body":"anymore."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1264.0,"endTime":1266.839,"body":"And really, what I'm asking my physician to do, because I'm"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1266.839,"endTime":1268.94,"body":"beginning to view my body as something which"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1269.94,"endTime":1271.319,"body":"is ultimately gonna fail me."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1272.44,"endTime":1276.4,"body":"I mean, that's just, that's just the way it is. I don't think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1276.4,"endTime":1278.319,"body":"that's morbid, it's just reality."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1278.319,"endTime":1280.759,"body":"No, it's just, that's stark reality."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1280.759,"endTime":1283.46,"body":"Yeah, and what I want from my doctors and others"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1283.46,"endTime":1286.819,"body":"is just simply some counsel on saying, \"You know, I've never"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1286.819,"endTime":1289.24,"body":"gotten old before, can you help me out here?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1289.24,"endTime":1289.559,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1289.559,"endTime":1291.489,"body":"What are realistic expectations?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1293.5,"endTime":1297.319,"body":"What's prop- I mean, proper care of the body now is not the same"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1297.319,"endTime":1298.14,"body":"as when I was 20."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1299.839,"endTime":1303.759,"body":"And it's just, it's just beginning to really"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1304.599,"endTime":1306.039,"body":"help me think through"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1307.22,"endTime":1310.039,"body":"not only the physical questions, but how does that affect my"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1310.039,"endTime":1313.64,"body":"spirituality? How does that affect my religious belief? I"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1313.64,"endTime":1316.279,"body":"mean, the questions I'm asking now is not the same questions I"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1316.279,"endTime":1320.16,"body":"was asking when I was young. And, you know, how... And ph- I"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1320.16,"endTime":1323.279,"body":"don't expect physicians to give me the answers, but can they"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1323.279,"endTime":1328.579,"body":"give me some clues about, as an embodied person, how do I think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1328.579,"endTime":1332.259,"body":"about this? How, how to respond to different kinds of issues."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1332.259,"endTime":1337.279,"body":"So what would you say, on this score, to, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1337.279,"endTime":1338.66,"body":"know, Gen Z-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1338.66,"endTime":1338.67,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1338.67,"endTime":1340.579,"body":"... You know, younger millennials, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1340.579,"endTime":1343.259,"body":"f- people in their twenties and thirties who still think they're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1343.259,"endTime":1345.46,"body":"relatively bulletproof?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1346.18,"endTime":1348.599,"body":"And they think that medicine's gonna do- you know, medicine's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1348.599,"endTime":1351.239,"body":"gonna cure everything that ails them."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1353.079,"endTime":1357.819,"body":"Yeah, and I guess the, my advice would be,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1357.819,"endTime":1362.4,"body":"pay attention to the ordinary. Pay attention to the, to the,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1362.4,"endTime":1365.98,"body":"the mundane, the everyday, and get your clues from that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1365.98,"endTime":1368.319,"body":"about how to live your life. Because"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1368.98,"endTime":1372.579,"body":"you are the first generation that has grown up with an overly"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1372.579,"endTime":1375.259,"body":"abundant confidence in technology that's ultimately"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1375.259,"endTime":1376.9,"body":"probably not gonna solve you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1377.68,"endTime":1381.519,"body":"or help you. I mean, for all of the hype about AI, it's still"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1381.519,"endTime":1384.38,"body":"pretty stupid. And [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1384.38,"endTime":1386.599,"body":"I've, I've, I've u- I've used often the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1386.599,"endTime":1388.98,"body":"acronym, allegedly inaccurate [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1388.98,"endTime":1389.89,"body":"Yeah [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1389.89,"endTime":1389.92,"body":"To describe it."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1389.92,"endTime":1392.18,"body":"I think it's- I think that's a pretty good one,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1392.18,"endTime":1393.16,"body":"actually."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1394.359,"endTime":1398.64,"body":"And recognize that technolo- there's a price for"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1398.64,"endTime":1401.519,"body":"any kind of technological solution you are going to seek."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1401.519,"endTime":1404.46,"body":"I mean, George Grant, for example, was really fond of the"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1404.46,"endTime":1407.359,"body":"Spanish proverb, \"Take what you want, say God, take it and pay"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1407.359,"endTime":1411.4,"body":"for it.\" And any kind of technology you adopt, there's a"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1411.4,"endTime":1415.279,"body":"price to it. It's not free. So the more time that you spend on"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1415.279,"endTime":1417.839,"body":"a screen is less time that you're gonna spend face-to-face"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1417.839,"endTime":1418.42,"body":"with somebody,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1419.119,"endTime":1422.069,"body":"'cause that's just the way it is. And, and it is,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1422.819,"endTime":1425.059,"body":"like what we're doing today. Is a Zoom meeting"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1425.839,"endTime":1430.72,"body":"an adequate substitute for face-to-face meetings? No. But"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1430.72,"endTime":1432.7,"body":"it's sometimes the best we can do."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1432.7,"endTime":1433.24,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1433.24,"endTime":1434.7,"body":"But it's to recognize, I think, the limits"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1434.7,"endTime":1437.279,"body":"of technology and to say, you know, ultimately,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1437.88,"endTime":1439.9,"body":"a good life, a life"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1440.46,"endTime":1444.18,"body":"worth living, is not gonna be lived entirely in the company of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1444.18,"endTime":1444.71,"body":"technology."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1446.079,"endTime":1448.559,"body":"So Brent, you've, I mean, you've,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1448.559,"endTime":1452.059,"body":"you've, I think, done a great job of po- of diagnosing a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1452.059,"endTime":1455.776,"body":"problem, but you've also proposed a solution.... Here,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1455.776,"endTime":1459.096,"body":"and it's a little different than what y- what the average person"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1459.096,"endTime":1462.675,"body":"might think. So what actually are you proposing that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1462.675,"endTime":1466.935,"body":"we do about this concern that you have about medicine taking a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1466.935,"endTime":1469.675,"body":"wrong turn?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1469.675,"endTime":1472.056,"body":"A recovery of virtue."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1473.435,"endTime":1475.796,"body":"I mean, I think that's the starting point. I don't think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1475.796,"endTime":1478.195,"body":"it's the solution in and of itself, but I'm just not smart"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1478.195,"endTime":1481.615,"body":"enough to think of a complete solution. But I can suggest"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1481.615,"endTime":1484.596,"body":"maybe starting with the, with the virtue. And two quick"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1484.596,"endTime":1487.056,"body":"examples of that is... Well, first of all, what is a virtue?"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1487.056,"endTime":1489.435,"body":"Well, virtue is simply,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1490.915,"endTime":1492.435,"body":"is an excellence, and excellence"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1492.976,"endTime":1496.455,"body":"is usually the m- the middle road between two extremes. So,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1496.455,"endTime":1498.464,"body":"for example, in the excellence of,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1499.955,"endTime":1504.256,"body":"courage means that on the one hand, you avoid the vice of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1504.256,"endTime":1507.516,"body":"recklessness, and on the other side, the vice of cowardice."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1508.256,"endTime":1511.096,"body":"So that, you know, the courageous person, and you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1511.096,"endTime":1512.695,"body":"habituate that through practice,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1513.276,"endTime":1515.776,"body":"so that when you approach a situation, it's not that you"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1515.776,"endTime":1518.276,"body":"have to think, \"Should I be courageous or not?\" You simply"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1518.276,"endTime":1522.576,"body":"are courageous. And, and so the two virtues I'm trying"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1522.576,"endTime":1524.855,"body":"to think through in terms of healthcare, and this is virtues"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1524.855,"endTime":1527.915,"body":"both for physicians and patients, is the virtue of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1527.915,"endTime":1531.076,"body":"prudence combined with the virtue of love of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1531.076,"endTime":1533.576,"body":"neighbor, particularly. And I think that that creates those"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1533.576,"endTime":1535.385,"body":"two... I mean, prudence is simply"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1536.455,"endTime":1538.255,"body":"doing the right things for the right reasons,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1539.135,"endTime":1541.796,"body":"and that means you take counsel, you don't try to be independent,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1541.796,"endTime":1544.755,"body":"but, you don't also suspend decisions for a long time."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1544.755,"endTime":1546.536,"body":"Eventually, you take decisive action."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1548.135,"endTime":1551.536,"body":"And when prudence is combined with neighbor love, you exhibit"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1551.536,"endTime":1554.135,"body":"this through the, again, through the common, ordinary things, so"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1554.135,"endTime":1556.855,"body":"physicians taking care of the body and patients having"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1556.855,"endTime":1559.496,"body":"realistic expectations of what they can receive. So I think"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1559.496,"endTime":1562.276,"body":"that ultimately, with those two virtues, you learn something"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1562.276,"endTime":1563.016,"body":"about humility,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1564.175,"endTime":1567.715,"body":"and you learn something about gratitude. I think that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1567.715,"endTime":1570.776,"body":"especially the gratitude is, I think, a very important"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1570.776,"endTime":1573.516,"body":"part of human flourishing. You need to be grateful for that"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1573.516,"endTime":1576.855,"body":"which is given to you, the gifts that we receive from"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1576.855,"endTime":1580.615,"body":"strangers, from friends, from family. And I mean, I've"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1580.615,"endTime":1584.414,"body":"always been struck by, you know, a few, literally just a few days"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1584.414,"endTime":1586.476,"body":"before, Sir Roger Scruton died,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1587.096,"endTime":1590.476,"body":"he wrote about it. He says, \"When you are approaching death,"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1591.395,"endTime":1594.255,"body":"you begin to learn what is important about life, and in a"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1594.255,"endTime":1597.755,"body":"word, that means gratitude.\" And I can't think of a better"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1597.755,"endTime":1600.755,"body":"benediction than what I'm trying to say than something"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1600.755,"endTime":1603.816,"body":"along the line is, a life well-lived is a life of"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1603.816,"endTime":1607.875,"body":"gratitude, and I think we learn gratitude through the humility"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1607.875,"endTime":1609.996,"body":"that prudence and love teaches us."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1611.435,"endTime":1612.915,"body":"I think, I think we'll let that be the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1612.915,"endTime":1614.125,"body":"benediction."},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1614.125,"endTime":1614.125,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1614.675,"endTime":1617.336,"body":"That's a very... W- I think we could also refer that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1617.336,"endTime":1620.395,"body":"to that as a drop-the-mic moment. Uh-"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1620.395,"endTime":1620.505,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1620.505,"endTime":1620.516,"body":"... But,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1621.195,"endTime":1624.836,"body":"Brent, really appreciate your insights on this. I know you've,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1624.836,"endTime":1627.715,"body":"you've wrestled with this both professionally and personally,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1628.615,"endTime":1631.135,"body":"and have seen a lot of, a lot of the issues that you're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1631.135,"endTime":1634.615,"body":"describing here, and I so appreciate your emphasis on just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1634.615,"endTime":1636.655,"body":"the ordinary, daily"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1637.234,"endTime":1640.435,"body":"stuff of life, which I think, I think you're right on this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1640.435,"endTime":1644.935,"body":"That is the school of virtue. It is the, it is the place where we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1644.935,"endTime":1648.096,"body":"learn to love our neighbor, where we learn to love God,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1648.096,"endTime":1649.484,"body":"where we learn to,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1650.455,"endTime":1653.675,"body":"to cultivate humility and gratitude, and I think the other"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1653.675,"endTime":1657.016,"body":"virtues that are evident from what Paul taught, for example,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1657.016,"endTime":1658.076,"body":"in the fruit of the Spirit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1658.695,"endTime":1661.734,"body":"in Galatians 5. Those things are... Tho- that's the stuff of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1661.734,"endTime":1665.496,"body":"which life is made. And I think we, think we could have an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1665.496,"endTime":1669.016,"body":"appreciation for medicine and the extraordinary things that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1669.016,"endTime":1670.875,"body":"it's a- that it's able to accomplish"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1671.496,"endTime":1674.016,"body":"without looking at it as the savior"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1674.556,"endTime":1678.336,"body":"for us. And I think that this, I think the caution about that is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1678.336,"endTime":1680.056,"body":"well taken, and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1680.895,"endTime":1683.755,"body":"and so again, so appreciative of you. The way you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1683.755,"endTime":1687.076,"body":"explain this, you know, and ground this both biblically and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1687.076,"endTime":1687.796,"body":"theologically"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1688.435,"endTime":1690.695,"body":"is cr- is crucial for this conversation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1691.675,"endTime":1694.615,"body":"So very grateful for your time with us, and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1695.415,"endTime":1698.336,"body":"look forward to further conversations on this. I know we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1698.336,"endTime":1702.316,"body":"will have you back again on the, on the next subject that you're,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1702.316,"endTime":1706.135,"body":"that you're taking up, 'cause I can, I can count on a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1706.135,"endTime":1710.455,"body":"insight and a lot of creativity coming from you. [upbeat music]"},{"speaker":"Brent Waters","startTime":1710.455,"endTime":1711.976,"body":"Thank you, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1711.976,"endTime":1713.556,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1713.556,"endTime":1716.476,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture. It's brought"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1716.476,"endTime":1719.275,"body":"to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1719.275,"endTime":1722.796,"body":"offering programs in Southern California and online. Visit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1722.796,"endTime":1727.496,"body":"biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. To submit comments,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1727.496,"endTime":1730.855,"body":"ask questions, make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1730.855,"endTime":1733.355,"body":"or guests you'd like us to consider, you can email us at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1733.355,"endTime":1736.255,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1736.255,"endTime":1740.296,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1740.296,"endTime":1742.915,"body":"with our friend, Dr. Brent Waters, give us a rating on your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1742.915,"endTime":1746.596,"body":"podcast app and share it with a friend. And join us on Friday"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1746.596,"endTime":1749.296,"body":"for our weekly cultural update. Thanks for listening, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1749.296,"endTime":1759.895,"body":"remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}