{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.1,"endTime":4.08,"body":"[upbeat music] What is critical theory, and why is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.08,"endTime":6.139,"body":"it important for the Christian to understand it?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":6.66,"endTime":8.8,"body":"What's the connection between critical theory and the sexual"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":8.8,"endTime":13.24,"body":"revolution of the 1960s? And can there be such a thing as a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":13.24,"endTime":16.44,"body":"biblical critical theory? We'll look at these questions and a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.44,"endTime":19.339,"body":"whole lot more with our guest today, Dr. Carl Truman, in his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":19.339,"endTime":23.3,"body":"latest, very insightful book, entitled To Change All Worlds."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":23.3,"endTime":24.42,"body":"I'm your host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":24.42,"endTime":25.839,"body":"And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":25.839,"endTime":27.62,"body":"This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":27.62,"endTime":30.879,"body":"Theology, Biola University. Carl, so happy to have you with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":30.879,"endTime":34.179,"body":"us and so appreciate the book that you've done that takes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":34.179,"endTime":37.439,"body":"a really complicated subject and makes it accessible to people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":37.439,"endTime":39.46,"body":"who may not have a background in this area."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":39.46,"endTime":41.939,"body":"Thanks very much. It's great to be with you guys."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":41.939,"endTime":43.859,"body":"So fir-- Carl, let's start with this. For the person"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":43.859,"endTime":47.5,"body":"who's, who's completely unfamiliar with critical theory,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":47.5,"endTime":48.03,"body":"what is it,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":48.619,"endTime":51.46,"body":"and why does it matter for people to understand it?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":51.46,"endTime":53.859,"body":"Yeah, good question. Critical theory really"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":53.859,"endTime":57.02,"body":"has its origins in some comments that Karl Marx makes"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":57.619,"endTime":61.649,"body":"in the, 1840s, where he makes the observation that,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":62.399,"endTime":66.359,"body":"up until his point in time, the philosophers have interpreted"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":66.359,"endTime":71.06,"body":"the world. But the point, he says, is to change it. And"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":71.06,"endTime":74.099,"body":"critical theory is really an approach to, we might say, the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":74.099,"endTime":75.219,"body":"criticism of culture"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":75.84,"endTime":80.0,"body":"that is designed not simply to describe or explain"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":80.56,"endTime":84.239,"body":"cultural behavior, what's going on in society at any given point"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":84.239,"endTime":87.98,"body":"in time, but is specifically designed to bring about"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":87.98,"endTime":93.659,"body":"revolutionary change, to destabilize, society as we find"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":93.659,"endTime":98.459,"body":"it, i- to serve the purpose of the unmasking of power, for"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":98.459,"endTime":102.799,"body":"example, and the bringing about, if you're a Marxist, of a kind"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":102.799,"endTime":107.18,"body":"of Marxist, revolution. So critical theory is... You know,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":107.18,"endTime":109.939,"body":"don't be too hung up on the theory side of it. Critical"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":109.939,"endTime":112.579,"body":"theory is actually revolutionary practice"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":113.48,"endTime":116.359,"body":"in a theoretical form."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":116.359,"endTime":118.219,"body":"Carl, let me ask you this question. What is, what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":118.219,"endTime":122.06,"body":"is your personal interest in this topic? What motivated you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":122.06,"endTime":123.799,"body":"to research and write this book? [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":123.799,"endTime":125.92,"body":"Well, I first got interested in critical theory"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":125.92,"endTime":129.319,"body":"as an amateur in the 1980s. I studied at the University of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":129.319,"endTime":130.78,"body":"Cambridge. My,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":131.289,"endTime":134.759,"body":"history supervisor there was a Marxist, and I had to read"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":134.759,"endTime":134.939,"body":"some-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":134.939,"endTime":135.049,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":135.049,"endTime":138.34,"body":"... Critical theory stuff because of,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":138.34,"endTime":141.879,"body":"things that he was sort of pointing my way, and I became"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":141.879,"endTime":145.159,"body":"interested in how it had developed over time. More"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":145.159,"endTime":148.18,"body":"recently, of course, critical theory has become a hot"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":148.18,"endTime":152.62,"body":"topic, specifically critical race theory. And the origins of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":152.62,"endTime":157.3,"body":"this particular book, emerged in, I think, 2020, 2021, when"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":157.3,"endTime":161.419,"body":"BNH, the publisher, approached me and said they wanted a book"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":161.419,"endTime":165.62,"body":"that would help, explain the basic principles of critical"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":165.62,"endTime":168.74,"body":"theory to, undergraduates,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":169.259,"endTime":170.099,"body":"in, you know,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":170.8,"endTime":174.539,"body":"Christian colleges. So that was really the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":174.539,"endTime":178.719,"body":"immediate, motive for writing this particular book."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":178.719,"endTime":181.58,"body":"So, Carl, this, I think it really helpful to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":181.58,"endTime":183.919,"body":"show that the, what the critical theorists were after was not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":183.919,"endTime":184.939,"body":"just a description"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":185.659,"endTime":188.699,"body":"of culture, but a way of transforming it. But to be a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":188.699,"endTime":192.58,"body":"little more specific, what were some of the main questions that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":192.58,"endTime":195.12,"body":"the critical theorists were trying to address when the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":195.12,"endTime":196.879,"body":"discipline got started?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":196.879,"endTime":198.08,"body":"Well, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":199.719,"endTime":203.199,"body":"the discipline really gets started in about fift- 1923,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":203.199,"endTime":207.8,"body":"with a group of German, and mainly Jewish intellectuals,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":207.8,"endTime":211.86,"body":"very influenced by Marx, at the Institution- Institute for"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":211.86,"endTime":212.919,"body":"Social Research,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":213.439,"endTime":216.259,"body":"in the city of Frankfurt, hence the name the Frankfurt School"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":216.259,"endTime":219.639,"body":"for this early group. And they were interested in why the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":219.639,"endTime":224.259,"body":"working classes, in Germany were not moving in a communist"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":224.259,"endTime":224.9,"body":"direction"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":225.52,"endTime":227.699,"body":"i, in elections. They were actually starting to cast their"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":227.699,"endTime":228.24,"body":"vote for"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":228.939,"endTime":229.719,"body":"the rising"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":230.3,"endTime":233.68,"body":"parties of the nationalist right, of which, of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":233.68,"endTime":237.439,"body":"course, the Nazis will become the most, prominent, and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":237.439,"endTime":238.78,"body":"successful example."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":238.78,"endTime":241.3,"body":"Against what you would consider to be their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":241.3,"endTime":242.389,"body":"own interests?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":242.389,"endTime":244.219,"body":"That was what puzzled them, because classical"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":244.219,"endTime":247.939,"body":"Marxism would really have led one to believe that capitalism"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":247.939,"endTime":251.159,"body":"will ultimately collapse under its own contradictions. The"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":251.159,"endTime":255.599,"body":"working class will come to realize that and will, move in"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":255.599,"endTime":258.939,"body":"their best interests. But the Frankfurt School are interested"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":258.939,"endTime":262.56,"body":"in why is it that the, if you like, the imagination of the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":262.56,"endTime":263.639,"body":"working classes"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":264.319,"endTime":266.62,"body":"doesn't, carry them to the left,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":267.22,"endTime":270.639,"body":"but carries them against their best interests, to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":271.199,"endTime":275.779,"body":"the right? So that's the sort of the big question. And"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":275.779,"endTime":279.72,"body":"one could see that that then morphs into more general"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":279.72,"endTime":283.74,"body":"philosophical questions. So, for example, the question of truth"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":283.74,"endTime":287.519,"body":"becomes interesting. What is truth? And for many critical"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":287.519,"endTime":289.379,"body":"theorists, truth is not"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":290.079,"endTime":292.579,"body":"what we would consider truth. You sort of, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":292.579,"endTime":296.16,"body":"correspondence theory of truth, where, you know, the cat is on"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":296.16,"endTime":300.759,"body":"the mat is true if there is a cat indeed on a mat, or"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":300.759,"endTime":306.439,"body":"false if there isn't a cat on a mat. Truth becomes any statement"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":306.439,"endTime":310.18,"body":"or idea that moves the revolution forward."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":311.18,"endTime":316.62,"body":"So truth becomes that which destabilizes the stories that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":316.62,"endTime":317.36,"body":"capitalism"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":318.04,"endTime":323.42,"body":"tells about itself in order to retain its power within,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":323.42,"endTime":327.86,"body":"society. So we see the sort of the... Not only are they"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":327.86,"endTime":330.779,"body":"interested in questions of, you know, why the working class vote"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":330.779,"endTime":333.839,"body":"the way they do, but they're also interested in recasting"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":333.839,"endTime":336.199,"body":"some fundamental philosophical categories"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":336.779,"endTime":338.959,"body":"in order to make them revolutionary."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":339.959,"endTime":341.379,"body":"It's really helpful to think about critical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":341.379,"endTime":344.519,"body":"theory in terms of its activism, and it even shapes, like you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":344.519,"endTime":348.339,"body":"said, how they view truth. It's more pragmatic than purely just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":348.339,"endTime":353.56,"body":"philosophical. In one sense, cultural critique is not new. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":353.56,"endTime":356.92,"body":"mean, the Old Testament [chuckles] prophets engaged in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":356.92,"endTime":359.199,"body":"scathing critiques of Israelite culture"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":359.779,"endTime":363.86,"body":"and religion and other nations around them. How is the cultural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":363.86,"endTime":367.72,"body":"critique of critical theorists that different?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":367.72,"endTime":370.399,"body":"Well, I think the major difference,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":370.399,"endTime":374.1,"body":"of course, between, say, what Isaiah is doing when he"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":374.1,"endTime":379.199,"body":"critiques idolatry, is, you know, the, and critical theory"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":379.199,"endTime":384.12,"body":"would be that Isaiah feels he has a direct access to the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":384.12,"endTime":389.267,"body":"truth.... And he's able to critique the world as it is in"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":389.267,"endTime":393.668,"body":"comparison to this truth that has been revealed to him, by"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":393.668,"endTime":395.807,"body":"God. Critical theorists really"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":396.567,"endTime":400.148,"body":"would question whether anyone, including themselves,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":400.148,"endTime":405.127,"body":"has access to the truth in that way. All they can really know is"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":405.127,"endTime":410.007,"body":"that what confronts them is false, and exposing its"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":410.007,"endTime":413.687,"body":"falsity, and its instability, and its lack of substance"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":414.228,"endTime":417.447,"body":"is the key thing, that they are doing in order to move the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":417.447,"endTime":419.648,"body":"historical process forward. You might say, you know, if you're a"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":419.648,"endTime":424.867,"body":"Marxist critical theorist, the truth is not out there, in a way"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":424.867,"endTime":429.507,"body":"that it is for Isaiah. The truth lies somewhere in the future,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":429.507,"endTime":433.747,"body":"and it's getting society to that future, which will ultimately"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":433.747,"endTime":437.208,"body":"bring about the truth as part of the historical process."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":437.208,"endTime":438.848,"body":"Now, you maintain in your book that there"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":438.848,"endTime":442.067,"body":"are actually two versions of this. You just made reference to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":442.067,"endTime":445.127,"body":"the Marxist version, but you also describe a more-- what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":445.127,"endTime":449.228,"body":"you call a postmodern iteration of this. So how are those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":449.228,"endTime":452.168,"body":"two things different? Help our listeners understand"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":452.968,"endTime":454.348,"body":"what the differences are."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":454.348,"endTime":456.307,"body":"Yeah, I would draw a broad contrast in"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":456.307,"endTime":459.288,"body":"critical theory between those that I would say are inspired by"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":459.288,"endTime":461.427,"body":"what I've called the Frankfurt School, which is a kind of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":461.427,"endTime":467.247,"body":"emerges from a form of Marxism, and what we might call"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":467.247,"endTime":470.947,"body":"the poststructuralist school that emerges really in"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":470.947,"endTime":475.827,"body":"the '60s and '70s in France, is associated with a figure such as"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":475.827,"endTime":479.307,"body":"Michel Foucault, who's emphatically anti-Marxist and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":479.307,"endTime":484.778,"body":"anti-Hegel, in his thinking. The things they share in common are"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":485.288,"endTime":490.867,"body":"a concern for exposing how power operates and how they see all"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":490.867,"endTime":494.788,"body":"truth claims as being manipulative. The difference"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":494.788,"endTime":498.108,"body":"between them would be that the Marxists see this as part"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":498.108,"endTime":500.528,"body":"and parcel of moving towards"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":501.187,"endTime":501.968,"body":"the truth,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":502.848,"endTime":508.848,"body":"moving history forward, to a revolutionary phra- phase where,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":508.848,"endTime":512.028,"body":"you know, utopia can and will be realized on Earth. Whereas"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":512.028,"endTime":514.985,"body":"somebody like Foucault doesn't think there is any truth. He"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":514.985,"endTime":518.327,"body":"doesn't think it can be realized in the future. He doesn't think"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":518.327,"endTime":522.307,"body":"that, you can move forward to a utopia. All you can ever do is,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":522.307,"endTime":523.788,"body":"is destabilize"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":524.388,"endTime":528.107,"body":"claims to truth in the present. So we might say that the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":528.107,"endTime":531.888,"body":"Marxists have a kind of metaphysical vision of the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":531.888,"endTime":533.577,"body":"future, whereas,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":534.607,"endTime":538.028,"body":"somebody like Foucault really is pitted against all forms"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":538.028,"endTime":539.707,"body":"of metaphysics."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":539.707,"endTime":541.388,"body":"What's the connection between critical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":541.388,"endTime":546.048,"body":"theory and the sexual revolution of the '60s and beyond?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":546.048,"endTime":547.927,"body":"Yeah, it's an interesting one, and we find"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":547.927,"endTime":552.268,"body":"the connection in terms of thinkers, really"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":552.268,"endTime":554.488,"body":"connects to two particular,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":555.207,"endTime":559.187,"body":"critical theorists. One, Wilhelm Reich, who's sort of loosely"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":559.187,"endTime":562.008,"body":"connected to the Frankfurt School, and the other one, a man"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":562.008,"endTime":566.268,"body":"called Herbert Marcuse, who's, you know, very much part of the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":566.268,"endTime":569.548,"body":"early Frankfurt School. And these men really latched on to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":569.548,"endTime":575.008,"body":"the idea that the way, unjust capitalist society"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":575.008,"endTime":576.398,"body":"maintains itself"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":577.128,"endTime":582.207,"body":"is through its sexual codes, and therefore, attacks on"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":582.207,"endTime":586.548,"body":"traditional sexual morality and traditional sexual categories,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":586.548,"endTime":590.168,"body":"become part of the revolutionary project. So,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":590.967,"endTime":594.616,"body":"Marc-- Reich dies in the '50s. Marcuse lives,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":596.028,"endTime":599.707,"body":"long enough to see the student revolutions of 1968,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":599.707,"endTime":603.467,"body":"where he's, he's a bit of a, of an iconic figure, really,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":603.467,"endTime":606.528,"body":"because the whole sexual revolution that the student"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":606.528,"endTime":608.388,"body":"revolutions participated in"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":608.967,"endTime":612.327,"body":"was inspired by Marcuse. And, you know, he would argue, for"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":612.327,"endTime":613.366,"body":"example, that,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":614.008,"endTime":618.187,"body":"homosexuality should be promoted precisely because homosexuality"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":618.187,"endTime":624.087,"body":"is a, is a s- a, an inextricably sterile form of sex. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":624.087,"endTime":624.097,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":624.097,"endTime":624.128,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":624.128,"endTime":627.388,"body":"You can't be producing a supine workforce"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":627.388,"endTime":632.288,"body":"through homosexual sex. The mere act, a mere homosexual act is"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":632.288,"endTime":637.227,"body":"itself revolutionary because it contradicts the capitalist"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":637.227,"endTime":640.148,"body":"production mentality that surrounds traditional"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":640.668,"endTime":641.668,"body":"sexual codes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":642.207,"endTime":643.707,"body":"Wow, that's interesting. You know, side"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":643.707,"endTime":646.927,"body":"note, my father-in-law had Marcuse as a philosophy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":646.927,"endTime":648.347,"body":"professor at UCSD-"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":648.347,"endTime":648.357,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":648.357,"endTime":651.988,"body":"... In the early '70s, interestingly enough-"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":651.988,"endTime":651.998,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":651.998,"endTime":653.748,"body":"... And remembers him as an interesting"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":653.748,"endTime":655.768,"body":"radical, [chuckles] to say the least."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":655.768,"endTime":657.567,"body":"Yeah, it would've been f- I would've loved to have"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":657.567,"endTime":658.918,"body":"sat in on some of his classes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":658.918,"endTime":658.967,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":658.967,"endTime":661.687,"body":"I bet he was a dynamic, uh- ... A dynamic"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":661.687,"endTime":662.408,"body":"teacher. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":662.408,"endTime":664.727,"body":"I think at le- at least he shook up the troops,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":665.347,"endTime":665.668,"body":"uh-"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":665.668,"endTime":665.888,"body":"Oh, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":665.888,"endTime":667.827,"body":"... In those classes. So that's-- I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":667.827,"endTime":671.028,"body":"think that's one area that critical theory has been applied"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":671.028,"endTime":675.107,"body":"to. What are, what are some other areas, maybe in the last"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":675.107,"endTime":678.748,"body":"twenty, thirty years, to which critical theory has also been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":678.748,"endTime":680.447,"body":"applied? And how, sort of-"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":680.447,"endTime":680.738,"body":"Yeah, well-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":680.738,"endTime":683.028,"body":"How... Spell out how does that, how that works."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":683.028,"endTime":685.248,"body":"I mean, think about the issues over, you"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":685.248,"endTime":688.288,"body":"know, what is a woman, that sort of swirl around at the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":688.288,"endTime":690.467,"body":"moment. The i-- the whole idea of,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":691.067,"endTime":695.148,"body":"of the separation between biological sex and gender, and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":695.148,"endTime":696.967,"body":"the idea that,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":697.567,"endTime":701.908,"body":"gender is a, is a performance and not something, connected to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":701.908,"endTime":706.288,"body":"biology, that the way we use biology in the sexual debates is"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":706.288,"endTime":708.648,"body":"itself a power play."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":709.307,"endTime":711.748,"body":"That kind of thinking that you find with somebody like Judith"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":711.748,"endTime":717.067,"body":"Butler at UC Berkeley, clearly very closely connected to,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":717.067,"endTime":720.227,"body":"critical theory. Critical race theory, which emerges in the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":720.227,"endTime":725.168,"body":"'50s and '60s, in law schools, become very important, of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":725.168,"endTime":727.758,"body":"course, around about 2019, 2020,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":728.727,"endTime":731.548,"body":"when critical race theory, it was even being talked about at"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":731.548,"endTime":734.837,"body":"the Southern Baptist Convention, of all places."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":734.837,"endTime":735.388,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":735.388,"endTime":737.827,"body":"The question of how we construct notions of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":737.827,"endTime":744.748,"body":"race, how race is used, in, culture, whether certain things"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":744.748,"endTime":747.947,"body":"such as Brown v. Board of Education, that traditional,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":748.557,"endTime":750.988,"body":"traditional liberals and I would say traditional"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":750.988,"endTime":754.607,"body":"conservatives would regard typically as a good thing"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":754.607,"endTime":758.087,"body":"and as moving society in the right direction.... Is that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":758.087,"endTime":762.567,"body":"actually just a power play by the white population to sort"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":762.567,"endTime":763.866,"body":"of throw the,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":764.626,"endTime":767.638,"body":"the black population a bone to keep them in their place?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":767.638,"endTime":773.447,"body":"That sort of question that erupted, in, 2019, 2020, that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":773.447,"endTime":774.366,"body":"too is,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":775.227,"endTime":778.548,"body":"something that connects to the kind of ideas that we see"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":778.548,"endTime":782.707,"body":"bubbling away in critical theory in the 1930s. So race and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":782.707,"endTime":786.827,"body":"gender, two very obvious, examples."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":786.827,"endTime":788.587,"body":"Carl, there's a lot of debate and discussion, as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":788.587,"endTime":793.408,"body":"you know, about whether or not Christians can and should borrow"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":793.408,"endTime":797.788,"body":"or lean into critical theory and bring any positive things out of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":797.788,"endTime":800.648,"body":"it, or keep all of critical theory, [chuckles] so to speak,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":800.648,"endTime":805.148,"body":"at an arm's length. I'm curious your take on how, if at all,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":805.148,"endTime":805.908,"body":"critical theory"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":806.488,"endTime":809.648,"body":"can be useful to Christians."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":809.648,"endTime":811.107,"body":"Yeah, it's a very good question, and I think we"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":811.107,"endTime":814.386,"body":"have to be very careful here because critical theory is not--"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":814.386,"endTime":817.427,"body":"it's not a tool. Certainly, the critical theorists don't regard"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":817.427,"endTime":820.768,"body":"it as a tool. They see it as a pretty comprehensive way of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":820.768,"endTime":822.207,"body":"approaching,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":822.746,"endTime":827.148,"body":"society and culture. So I would be very wary. I didn't like the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":827.148,"endTime":827.927,"body":"language,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":828.687,"endTime":831.847,"body":"you know, circling in Christian circles in 2020, 2021, of, you"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":831.847,"endTime":834.886,"body":"know, critical race theory is a useful tool for Christians. I"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":834.886,"endTime":836.967,"body":"think as soon as you start talking about critical theory as"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":836.967,"endTime":840.126,"body":"a tool, you've fundamentally misunderstood what critical"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":840.126,"endTime":844.768,"body":"theory is about. I would say where critical theory is, you"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":844.768,"endTime":849.626,"body":"know... Where I find critical theory is interesting to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":849.626,"endTime":853.028,"body":"interact with is this- it often raises difficult questions that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":853.028,"endTime":857.028,"body":"Christians have to answer. It's not so much in the answers it"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":857.028,"endTime":860.347,"body":"proposes, as in the questions that it demands we"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":860.347,"endTime":864.288,"body":"answer. So take, for example, the question- What is a woman?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":864.866,"endTime":865.886,"body":"Most of us would say, \"Well,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":866.418,"endTime":871.168,"body":"woman can be defined biologically.\" But critical"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":871.168,"endTime":875.048,"body":"gender theory makes us very aware that we use the term woman"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":875.827,"endTime":879.607,"body":"about a whole lot of things beyond biology. [chuckles] You"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":879.607,"endTime":881.886,"body":"know, when we think about what does it mean to be woman,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":881.886,"endTime":884.847,"body":"what does it mean to be feminine, that's not just"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":884.847,"endTime":888.327,"body":"biology playing into that. There's a lot of culture that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":888.327,"endTime":891.587,"body":"plays into that. So, you know, being feminine in Texas is very"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":891.587,"endTime":895.587,"body":"different to being feminine in London or being feminine in"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":895.587,"endTime":899.908,"body":"Tokyo. So I think critical theory, it raises challenging"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":899.908,"endTime":903.307,"body":"questions that Christians need to think about."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":904.028,"endTime":908.988,"body":"It doesn't really offer positive proposals that Christians, I"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":908.988,"endTime":910.548,"body":"think, can buy into."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":910.548,"endTime":911.788,"body":"I think, yeah, that's a... I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":911.788,"endTime":914.807,"body":"fair critique. I think that became really evident with the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":914.807,"endTime":917.668,"body":"the Black Lives Matter movement and the critical race"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":917.668,"endTime":919.347,"body":"theory, in particular,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":919.988,"endTime":922.866,"body":"that this, the solution, the prescriptions that it had in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":922.866,"endTime":924.187,"body":"mind, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":924.788,"endTime":928.207,"body":"came under, I think, heavy criticism, and I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":928.207,"endTime":931.886,"body":"correctly so, even though some of the diagnoses may have been,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":931.886,"endTime":935.908,"body":"may have been on target. Let me ask you, just,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":936.807,"endTime":941.386,"body":"if you had- if you could say sort of one sort of overarching"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":941.386,"endTime":942.147,"body":"critique"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":943.508,"endTime":945.528,"body":"of most versions of critical theory,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":946.187,"endTime":947.528,"body":"what would it be?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":947.528,"endTime":951.087,"body":"It offers no real hope. I think when you-- if you"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":951.087,"endTime":953.467,"body":"look at the Foucault variety,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":954.126,"endTime":958.327,"body":"you know, it's, it's, it's a bleak, continual analysis of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":958.327,"endTime":962.408,"body":"power and manipulation. If you look at the Frankfurt School"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":962.408,"endTime":963.827,"body":"variety,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":964.347,"endTime":965.626,"body":"it can put no flesh"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":966.447,"endTime":969.707,"body":"on its vision of hope. One of the interesting things about"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":969.707,"endTime":970.707,"body":"critical theorists"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":971.268,"endTime":972.427,"body":"of that school is"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":973.107,"endTime":976.967,"body":"they're often very clear on what's wrong. When they move"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":976.967,"endTime":979.947,"body":"into telling you what the world would a- should actually"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":979.947,"endTime":983.748,"body":"be like, they can't give you a vision of that, because"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":984.587,"endTime":989.647,"body":"by... On the terms of their own thinking, you cannot describe"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":989.647,"endTime":992.927,"body":"utopia from the position of dystopia, and we live in a"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":992.927,"endTime":996.707,"body":"dystopia at the moment. And you see a little bit of this in"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":996.707,"endTime":999.567,"body":"Black Lives Matter. I think they've changed the website, but"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":999.567,"endTime":1002.187,"body":"I went there a couple of years ago, and it was very clear, for"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1002.187,"endTime":1004.927,"body":"example, on the BLM website, what they were against. You"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1004.927,"endTime":1008.647,"body":"know, they were against the, against the funding of the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1008.647,"endTime":1013.366,"body":"police, for example. But when it moved into the things that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1013.366,"endTime":1017.027,"body":"they were for, the language got rather, what I would describe,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1017.027,"endTime":1020.748,"body":"it got rather poetic. [chuckles] Yeah, you know, oh, something to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1020.748,"endTime":1022.927,"body":"the effect of, you know, \"We- we'll all live in a village,\" or"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1022.927,"endTime":1025.587,"body":"something like that. Well, you know, villages, I grew up in a"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1025.587,"endTime":1027.876,"body":"village, we actually had a policeman. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1028.607,"endTime":1032.087,"body":"yeah, I wanna know what these villages that these"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1032.087,"endTime":1036.188,"body":"critical theorists envisage will actually look like. Don't give"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1036.188,"endTime":1039.446,"body":"me the poetry, give me some substance. So I would say"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1039.446,"endTime":1044.967,"body":"there's- there is no real hope, in, the vision that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1044.967,"endTime":1046.688,"body":"critical theory offers."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1047.748,"endTime":1050.587,"body":"Carl, how would you, compare and contrast"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1050.587,"endTime":1054.748,"body":"wokeness with critical theory? Is that basically a popular term"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1054.748,"endTime":1059.008,"body":"to capture some of the deeper academic ideas of critical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1059.008,"endTime":1062.008,"body":"theory, or what's, what's that intersection?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1062.008,"endTime":1063.807,"body":"Yeah, it's an interesting... I mean, to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1063.807,"endTime":1066.708,"body":"some extent, it's gonna come down to how you define wokeness,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1066.708,"endTime":1070.827,"body":"and I try to shy away from what I would regard as terms"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1070.827,"endTime":1075.528,"body":"that become, shorthand pejoratives for people we"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1075.528,"endTime":1076.938,"body":"disagree with. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1076.938,"endTime":1076.946,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1076.946,"endTime":1079.428,"body":"You know, whether it's cultural Marxism or"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1079.428,"endTime":1080.157,"body":"wokeness-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1080.157,"endTime":1080.337,"body":"Sure. Sure"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1081.167,"endTime":1082.946,"body":"... Or, yeah, often these things take on a"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1082.946,"endTime":1085.367,"body":"life of their own. I hate, I hate to sound like George"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1085.367,"endTime":1088.188,"body":"Lukács, the great Hungarian Marxist, but often they get"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1088.188,"endTime":1091.248,"body":"reified. They take on a life of their own. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1093.008,"endTime":1095.696,"body":"I think there's clearly a connection. I would say,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1097.107,"endTime":1100.688,"body":"a lot of wokeness as it manifests itself on things like"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1100.688,"endTime":1103.567,"body":"Twitter and social media, et cetera, and even in certain"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1103.567,"endTime":1107.278,"body":"political statements, is really a sort of,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1108.167,"endTime":1113.087,"body":"popular reduction- ... Of pretty complex ideas"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1113.708,"endTime":1116.028,"body":"to crowd-pleasing slogans."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1117.268,"endTime":1121.428,"body":"Now, there is a connection between-... Critical theory and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1121.428,"endTime":1123.847,"body":"some of the slogans that are, that are, that are hurled"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1123.847,"endTime":1125.387,"body":"around. But"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1126.008,"endTime":1130.048,"body":"the connection often involves a, an oversimplification"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1130.587,"endTime":1135.548,"body":"of what critical theorists are actually saying, in and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1135.548,"endTime":1139.428,"body":"of themselves. So there is a connection, and I suspect"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1139.428,"endTime":1142.688,"body":"there's also a cultural mood connection as well, that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1142.688,"endTime":1144.637,"body":"both things became popular"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1145.188,"endTime":1148.448,"body":"because there was a certain cultural mood applying in the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1148.448,"endTime":1152.087,"body":"era of COVID, end of the Trump, beginning of the Biden era, that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1152.087,"endTime":1153.488,"body":"sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1153.488,"endTime":1156.188,"body":"You lay out some of the historical and cultural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1156.188,"endTime":1160.268,"body":"forces of why critical theory kind of rises to the surface. Do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1160.268,"endTime":1163.887,"body":"you think there are certain psychological kind of factors in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1163.887,"endTime":1168.708,"body":"our cultural moment that have made critical theory, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1168.708,"endTime":1171.617,"body":"its popular renditions, wokeness-"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1171.617,"endTime":1171.617,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1171.617,"endTime":1173.708,"body":"... Kind of appealing to people in this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1173.708,"endTime":1176.448,"body":"moment, like they're drawn to it?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1176.448,"endTime":1178.667,"body":"Yeah, I think, we live in an era where I would"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1178.667,"endTime":1182.147,"body":"describe, you know, victimhood as having become the great"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1182.147,"endTime":1186.788,"body":"virtue. If you can claim to be a victim, then you have the moral"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1186.788,"endTime":1190.288,"body":"high ground, and critical theory is nothing if it's not a"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1190.288,"endTime":1194.708,"body":"dramatic theory of victimhood. And I would also use perhaps"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1194.708,"endTime":1199.788,"body":"the Nietzschean concept of ressentiment here. It's a French"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1199.788,"endTime":1203.627,"body":"word, but Nietzsche uses it even in his German texts, that refers"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1203.627,"endTime":1208.107,"body":"to really a seething feeling of resentment from a position of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1208.107,"endTime":1211.667,"body":"weakness. We might say, \"Well, what does that mean?\" It means,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1212.528,"endTime":1216.288,"body":"when you feel powerless, when life isn't as you want it"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1216.288,"endTime":1221.188,"body":"to be, you look for somebody else to blame, and you turn"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1221.188,"endTime":1228.367,"body":"their strengths into what you regard as immoral positions. So"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1228.367,"endTime":1233.228,"body":"you redefine your morality based around the fact that you"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1233.228,"endTime":1236.607,"body":"don't have something that they have, and you decide that what"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1236.607,"endTime":1240.607,"body":"they have therefore makes them morally inferior to you. And I"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1240.607,"endTime":1244.988,"body":"think that psychology of ressentiment, pervades a lot of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1244.988,"endTime":1248.938,"body":"modern culture and certainly explains a lot of the appeal of,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1248.938,"endTime":1252.307,"body":"of something like Black Lives Matter or popular versions of"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1252.307,"endTime":1253.667,"body":"critical race theory."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1253.667,"endTime":1257.067,"body":"Carl, one final question for you. I thought the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1257.067,"endTime":1259.887,"body":"maybe the most provocative thing in the book was what came at the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1259.887,"endTime":1265.147,"body":"end, where you maintained that the Church, not an argument, is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1265.147,"endTime":1268.728,"body":"the best way to refute critical theory. Can you spell out a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1268.728,"endTime":1270.607,"body":"little bit more what you mean by that?"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1270.607,"endTime":1275.867,"body":"Yes, I think that w- critical theory, I... It"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1275.867,"endTime":1278.468,"body":"would take a long time to sort of fully elaborate it, but I"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1278.468,"endTime":1282.147,"body":"think we are, what I would say, intuitive creatures. By and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1282.147,"endTime":1286.028,"body":"large, most of what we believe, derives from intuitions that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1286.028,"endTime":1288.448,"body":"have been formed through the environments that we find"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1288.448,"endTime":1291.268,"body":"ourselves in. And then, and the Bible clearly speaks to this"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1291.268,"endTime":1291.417,"body":"when it"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1292.228,"endTime":1296.877,"body":"h- prioritizes the Church, when it prioritizes good company as,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1296.877,"endTime":1300.028,"body":"as shaping our moral structure. Well, you know, if you want to,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1300.028,"endTime":1302.587,"body":"to demonstrate to the wider world, for example, that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1302.587,"endTime":1308.387,"body":"Christianity is not a manipulative power play, but is"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1308.387,"endTime":1312.228,"body":"what the New Testament says it is, it is a religion that"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1312.228,"endTime":1315.567,"body":"involves a sacrificial self-giving to others,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1316.208,"endTime":1319.788,"body":"then the best way to prove that that's the case is not simply to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1319.788,"endTime":1320.807,"body":"argue for it,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1321.468,"endTime":1322.667,"body":"but to behave"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1323.307,"endTime":1327.248,"body":"in that way, to have your own intuition shaped by that, so"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1327.248,"endTime":1330.087,"body":"that you can shape the intuitions of others. So at the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1330.087,"endTime":1333.147,"body":"end of the book, I really make the case for, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1333.147,"endTime":1334.748,"body":"Church being the Church"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1335.367,"endTime":1336.528,"body":"is itself"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1337.288,"endTime":1339.008,"body":"a powerful testimony"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1339.647,"endTime":1343.817,"body":"to the falsity of so much critical theory, that you cannot"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1343.817,"endTime":1348.928,"body":"reduce all human relationships here and now to manipulative"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1348.928,"endTime":1352.647,"body":"power relationships, for example. That it is possible to"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1352.647,"endTime":1355.647,"body":"be hospitable and kind. So"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1356.167,"endTime":1359.508,"body":"my basic point at the end there was, you know, let's not get too"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1359.508,"endTime":1363.127,"body":"hung up on the theoretical response to critical theory. Any"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1363.127,"endTime":1365.788,"body":"theory, any argument you offer to a critical theorist, they're"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1365.788,"endTime":1368.367,"body":"simply gonna come round and say, \"Well, of course, you'd say"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1368.367,"endTime":1372.087,"body":"that. You're a middle-class, white, heterosexual bourgeois.\""},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1372.087,"endTime":1372.336,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1372.336,"endTime":1372.847,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1372.847,"endTime":1375.307,"body":"That argument's not gonna hold sway"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1375.307,"endTime":1379.367,"body":"theoretically with them. Maybe if you see them stuck at the"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1379.367,"endTime":1382.728,"body":"side of the road with a flat tire, and you pull over and"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1382.728,"endTime":1386.448,"body":"help them to change the tire, that might actually have a more"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1386.448,"endTime":1390.167,"body":"powerful impact on the way they think about you. So my pitch at"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1390.167,"endTime":1393.167,"body":"the end for the Church was say, you know, God has given us a way"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1393.167,"endTime":1393.387,"body":"to,"},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1394.387,"endTime":1399.367,"body":"to show what true humanity looks like. It's called the Church."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1399.367,"endTime":1401.407,"body":"Let's do it, and let's do it well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1401.407,"endTime":1403.048,"body":"Well, and that is, that's such a helpful"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1403.048,"endTime":1405.968,"body":"admonition, I think, and it is such a fitting way to close the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1405.968,"endTime":1406.268,"body":"book,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1406.948,"endTime":1408.928,"body":"and particular- I think, particularly in the cultural"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1408.928,"endTime":1413.147,"body":"moment that we're in today. Such, such good advice. Carl,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1413.147,"endTime":1417.268,"body":"this has been so insightful. So appreciate you taking your time"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1417.268,"endTime":1420.188,"body":"to be with us. I want to commend your book to our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1420.188,"endTime":1424.107,"body":"listeners, entitled To Change All Worlds, subtitled Critical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1424.107,"endTime":1427.968,"body":"Theory from Marx to Marcuse by Carl Truman. This has been a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1427.968,"endTime":1431.508,"body":"rich conversation, Carl. Thank you so much for joining us,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1431.508,"endTime":1431.678,"body":"and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1432.728,"endTime":1434.448,"body":"all the best to you."},{"speaker":"Carl Trueman","startTime":1434.448,"endTime":1436.548,"body":"Thanks for having me on, guys."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1436.548,"endTime":1438.347,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1438.347,"endTime":1441.528,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1441.528,"endTime":1444.587,"body":"you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1444.587,"endTime":1448.627,"body":"programs in Southern California and online, including master's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1448.627,"endTime":1451.448,"body":"degrees in apologetics, spiritual formation, Old and New"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1451.448,"endTime":1454.968,"body":"Testament, systematic theology, philosophy, marriage and family"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1454.968,"endTime":1457.508,"body":"therapy, and probably some others that I'm for- that I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1457.508,"endTime":1461.508,"body":"forgetting. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1461.508,"endTime":1464.587,"body":"learn more. If you'd like to submit comments, ask questions,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1464.587,"endTime":1467.067,"body":"or make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1467.607,"endTime":1469.768,"body":"or guests you'd like us to consider, email us at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1469.768,"endTime":1474.488,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1474.488,"endTime":1477.127,"body":"with our friend Carl Truman, please give us a rating on your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1477.127,"endTime":1480.807,"body":"podcast app and share it with a friend. And join us on Friday"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1480.807,"endTime":1483.847,"body":"for our weekly cultural update. Thanks for listening, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1483.847,"endTime":1493.387,"body":"remember, think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}