{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.3,"endTime":3.899,"body":"[upbeat music] How do we engage our friends,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3.899,"endTime":6.48,"body":"family, and others around controversial issues,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":6.48,"endTime":9.64,"body":"particularly those in science? Why do these controversial"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":9.64,"endTime":12.98,"body":"issues trigger emotional responses, and how do we manage"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":12.98,"endTime":16.0,"body":"our emotions in these discussions? We'll discuss these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.0,"endTime":18.32,"body":"questions and a whole lot more with our guest, our Talbot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":18.32,"endTime":21.359,"body":"colleague in philosophy, Dr. Tim Pickavance, around some new"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":21.359,"endTime":24.039,"body":"research that he and other Biola faculty members have been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":24.039,"endTime":26.64,"body":"involved in. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and this is Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":26.64,"endTime":29.96,"body":"Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":29.96,"endTime":32.82,"body":"Tim, welcome. Really glad to have you with us. So appreciate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":32.82,"endTime":35.579,"body":"this area of research that you guys have been involved in, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":35.579,"endTime":37.149,"body":"very anxious to have our listeners"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":37.859,"endTime":40.5,"body":"get access to some of this good work that you all have been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":40.5,"endTime":40.759,"body":"doing."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":40.759,"endTime":42.659,"body":"Hey, thanks, Scott. I'm glad to be here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":42.659,"endTime":46.78,"body":"So this is k- kind of a bit of a narrow research"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":46.78,"endTime":47.259,"body":"topic."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":47.259,"endTime":47.7,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":48.5,"endTime":50.799,"body":"But... And obviously there was, there's some"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":50.799,"endTime":54.24,"body":"backstory to this about what got you interested in this area."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":54.24,"endTime":55.96,"body":"You-- It's not something you were doing, but you're doing by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":55.96,"endTime":58.759,"body":"yourself. It's with a team of folks."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":59.42,"endTime":62.299,"body":"But having the whole team here would be a little bit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":62.299,"endTime":63.88,"body":"[chuckles] crowded around the table."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":63.88,"endTime":64.659,"body":"Yeah. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":64.659,"endTime":67.76,"body":"So what sparked your interest in this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":67.76,"endTime":69.439,"body":"area to begin with?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":69.439,"endTime":71.4,"body":"Yeah, thanks for asking that. That's... It's,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":71.4,"endTime":74.2,"body":"it's kind of a long story, but I'll do my best to summarize it"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":74.2,"endTime":76.84,"body":"a bit. There are really kind of two parts to the story. One is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":77.64,"endTime":82.959,"body":"just my independent interest in, questions around emotions and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":82.959,"endTime":86.239,"body":"what we should do with those as we think about the world and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":86.239,"endTime":90.099,"body":"think about God, who made the world. And I sort of backed my"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":90.099,"endTime":94.5,"body":"way into those questions, through thinking about"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":95.159,"endTime":97.799,"body":"some problems, both philosophical and theological,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":97.799,"endTime":100.719,"body":"that are connected to religious pluralism, and even pastoral,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":100.719,"endTime":102.939,"body":"that are connected to religious pluralism. So, like, what do we"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":102.939,"endTime":105.06,"body":"do with the fact that there are people who aren't Christians,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":105.06,"endTime":108.64,"body":"people who don't believe in God? Those kinds of things. And that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":108.64,"endTime":113.92,"body":"work turned into a really long project that I've been, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":113.92,"endTime":117.28,"body":"know, working on now for years with, my friend and a Biola"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":117.28,"endTime":120.469,"body":"colleague named Jason McMartin, who's also part of this team."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":120.469,"endTime":123.099,"body":"And Jason and I, so this is the second part of the story, Jason"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":123.099,"endTime":126.12,"body":"and I have been, for some time, teaching a class called"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":126.12,"endTime":129.038,"body":"Psychology and Christian Thought with one of our psychology"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":129.038,"endTime":132.9,"body":"colleagues here, named Liz Hall, and it's about the interface"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":132.9,"endTime":136.659,"body":"between psychology and Christian faith. And we began to realize"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":136.659,"endTime":139.659,"body":"that the students in this class, as we're wrestling with issues"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":139.659,"endTime":141.56,"body":"at the intersection of this scientific area"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":142.099,"endTime":145.58,"body":"and these theological questions, they're often making moral"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":145.58,"endTime":149.62,"body":"judgments or theological judgments simply by way, by, of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":149.62,"endTime":153.379,"body":"thinking about how certain actions or issues make them feel"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":153.379,"endTime":157.879,"body":"emotionally. And so Liz, and Jason, and I have been working"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":157.879,"endTime":160.919,"body":"on these questions for some time, and then, a possibility"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":160.919,"endTime":164.06,"body":"for a grant from the Templeton Religion Trust opened up because"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":164.06,"endTime":167.0,"body":"of other work that Liz had been doing. She found another"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":167.0,"endTime":169.759,"body":"psychologist, who's become a friend of mine, named Aaron"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":169.759,"endTime":172.86,"body":"Smith at Cal Baptist, and so she's a part of the team, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":172.86,"endTime":175.62,"body":"the four of us together have been working on this over the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":175.62,"endTime":177.849,"body":"course of the past couple years."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":177.849,"endTime":180.84,"body":"All right, so what... I mean, obviously, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":180.84,"endTime":182.96,"body":"see a need for this."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":182.96,"endTime":183.259,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":183.259,"endTime":185.56,"body":"What's, what's the problem that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":186.099,"endTime":188.36,"body":"you all are trying to solve here? Let's sort of cut to the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":188.36,"endTime":189.479,"body":"chase on that."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":189.479,"endTime":190.74,"body":"Well, the first"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":191.259,"endTime":194.819,"body":"and kind of most visceral form of the problem is that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":194.819,"endTime":195.759,"body":"there's just division"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":196.28,"endTime":199.52,"body":"in our culture and even in the church around questions at the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":199.52,"endTime":200.8,"body":"intersection of science"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":201.56,"endTime":205.96,"body":"and our Christian faith, and a lot of times that is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":205.96,"endTime":210.28,"body":"expressed emotionally. But more generally, there's"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":210.86,"endTime":215.12,"body":"kind of contradictory pressures that we find in our culture. One"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":215.12,"endTime":218.02,"body":"of them I like to think of as kind of coming from this sort of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":218.02,"endTime":221.659,"body":"more romantic tradition, which is the follow your heart kind of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":221.659,"endTime":224.12,"body":"thing, and then on the other side of it, we have this more"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":224.12,"endTime":227.919,"body":"enlightenment kind of pressure to follow the science. And these"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":227.919,"endTime":231.58,"body":"two pressures feel like you can't have them both, but what"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":231.58,"endTime":235.02,"body":"we're trying to articulate is more of like a third way almost,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":235.02,"endTime":238.08,"body":"because scientific issues can't be isolated, really, from"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":238.08,"endTime":241.219,"body":"religious, and moral, and political issues. And so to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":241.219,"endTime":244.52,"body":"treat these questions well, we have to consider all the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":244.52,"endTime":246.329,"body":"relevant bits of information and evidence,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":246.979,"endTime":250.219,"body":"and that's a challenging thing, especially when these issues"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":250.219,"endTime":253.3,"body":"trigger very strong emotional responses. And so what we're"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":253.3,"endTime":256.18,"body":"trying to do is equip people to navigate that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":256.819,"endTime":260.399,"body":"space, to think with their emotions, to try to learn from"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":260.399,"endTime":262.389,"body":"them, but also not be dominated by them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":263.1,"endTime":265.079,"body":"All right, so let's, let's be a little more specific"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":265.079,"endTime":269.819,"body":"here. What, what are some of the issues that are controversial,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":269.819,"endTime":272.959,"body":"particularly in science? We'll, we'll apply this more broadly in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":272.959,"endTime":273.98,"body":"a minute,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":274.579,"endTime":276.959,"body":"but particularly related to science, what are some of those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":276.959,"endTime":283.699,"body":"controversial issues, that you are helping people engage well?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":283.699,"endTime":286.36,"body":"There are so many, but I think just to take a"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":286.36,"endTime":287.79,"body":"couple from recent-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":287.79,"endTime":288.99,"body":"Well, give me a representative list."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":288.99,"endTime":291.86,"body":"... Moments. Yeah, so think about, responses"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":291.86,"endTime":293.199,"body":"to the COVID pandemic,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":293.779,"endTime":296.72,"body":"or even COVID vaccines, or even think about the controversies"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":296.72,"endTime":297.379,"body":"that have come out."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":297.379,"endTime":299.079,"body":"You mean, that was controversial?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":299.079,"endTime":299.468,"body":"Yeah. [chuckles] Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":299.468,"endTime":300.139,"body":"I missed that."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":300.139,"endTime":301.759,"body":"Yeah, exactly. I mean- [chuckles] ... You know,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":301.759,"endTime":303.959,"body":"those of us out here in California know maybe,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":303.959,"endTime":307.74,"body":"[chuckles] yeah, feels a little bit-- you feel that controversy"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":307.74,"endTime":310.5,"body":"maybe a little bit harder. But anyway, vaccines more generally"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":310.5,"endTime":313.639,"body":"have been a controversial issue for a long time. We see even"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":313.639,"endTime":314.99,"body":"with RFK,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":315.56,"endTime":318.24,"body":"in his role now in the government, that's raised some"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":318.24,"endTime":321.279,"body":"of these things to the fore a bit more. Think about things to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":321.279,"endTime":324.459,"body":"do with gender reassignment or treatment in those kinds of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":324.459,"endTime":327.42,"body":"spaces. AI. So, I mean, just to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":327.959,"endTime":331.66,"body":"home in on the AI thing for a minute, I recently wrote a piece"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":331.66,"endTime":335.839,"body":"for Christianity Today about, pornography produced by"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":335.839,"endTime":339.449,"body":"artificial intelligence, and some people believe that that is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":339.449,"endTime":341.579,"body":"a path to moral pornography,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":342.459,"endTime":344.6,"body":"which what are we supposed to do with that? I mean, that-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":344.6,"endTime":345.519,"body":"Ethical porn."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":345.519,"endTime":347.579,"body":"Yeah, that's right, and it-- that raises all"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":347.579,"endTime":350.759,"body":"sorts of emotional reactions in me, but what am I meant to do"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":350.759,"endTime":353.68,"body":"with that? And then, I mean, another thing, just also"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":353.68,"endTime":359.399,"body":"recently, I was working on, a piece for, my Substack,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":360.06,"endTime":363.639,"body":"called Becoming Human, about a claim that I've seen both Mark"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":363.639,"endTime":366.839,"body":"Zuckerberg, the founder of Facebook and CEO of Meta, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":366.839,"endTime":369.91,"body":"another technologist named, Mustafa Suleyman, who is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":369.91,"endTime":374.0,"body":"currently the CEO of Microsoft AI, but he founded DeepMind and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":374.0,"endTime":376.12,"body":"Inflection AI, I mean, these are, these are not people who"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":376.12,"endTime":381.132,"body":"are jokes in this space, about how AI friendship-... Is going"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":381.132,"endTime":384.232,"body":"to be an important dimension of the solution to the problem of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":384.232,"endTime":388.252,"body":"loneliness that we find as a sort of another kind of pandemic"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":388.252,"endTime":390.692,"body":"in our modern life. And these claims are not merely about"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":390.692,"endTime":393.752,"body":"science, right? They're not merely about science, they're-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":393.752,"endTime":397.791,"body":"but they're being made by people who I think have an outlook on"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":397.791,"endTime":401.512,"body":"what makes life good that's problematic in certain ways. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":401.512,"endTime":404.351,"body":"to engage with these questions, we have to attend both to the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":404.351,"endTime":406.552,"body":"nature of these scientific advancements, but also"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":406.552,"endTime":409.271,"body":"philosophical, and theological, and biblical questions about"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":409.271,"endTime":412.75,"body":"what humans are and how we're meant to live. So that's just"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":412.75,"endTime":413.471,"body":"one example-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":413.471,"endTime":413.531,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":413.531,"endTime":415.512,"body":"... Of a place where there's an emerging"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":415.512,"endTime":420.132,"body":"scientific trend that has very clear connections to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":420.831,"endTime":424.872,"body":"non-scientific things, and that raises emotional responses,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":425.411,"endTime":428.531,"body":"and we want to bring light, not just heat, to these"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":428.531,"endTime":429.831,"body":"conversations."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":429.831,"endTime":431.192,"body":"All right. Now, I take it that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":431.932,"endTime":436.091,"body":"a lot, a lot of the work you've done on this applies well to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":436.091,"endTime":439.451,"body":"other controversial areas besides those in science."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":439.451,"endTime":439.512,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":439.512,"endTime":441.252,"body":"Is there any difference?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":441.992,"endTime":445.112,"body":"How would you think about applying... And we'll get into"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":445.112,"endTime":447.971,"body":"some of the details of this in a moment, but how would- I take"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":447.971,"endTime":453.271,"body":"it, does this apply just as well to, say, issues of sexuality, or"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":453.271,"endTime":455.031,"body":"immigration, or other"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":455.552,"endTime":457.591,"body":"social issues that might be contested?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":457.591,"endTime":460.651,"body":"So I think so. Now, the focus of our work,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":460.651,"endTime":463.732,"body":"because the grant had a sort of limited scope, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":463.732,"endTime":467.771,"body":"because of our expertise, the focus has been on the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":467.771,"endTime":470.612,"body":"scientific questions specifically. But all of us are"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":470.612,"endTime":474.572,"body":"doing this recognizing that this is maybe a proof of concept for"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":474.572,"endTime":475.151,"body":"some tools-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":475.151,"endTime":475.221,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":475.221,"endTime":476.812,"body":"... And techniques that we're developing"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":476.812,"endTime":480.151,"body":"that could be beneficial outside of these spaces, too. And I"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":480.151,"endTime":483.132,"body":"mean, you might think about it this way- you know, science is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":483.132,"endTime":486.692,"body":"sometimes talked about as if it's more or less like isolated"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":486.692,"endTime":490.711,"body":"from other areas of human inquiry and human endeavor, but"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":490.711,"endTime":496.692,"body":"that's really just a myth. That's just not true. Science is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":496.692,"endTime":499.391,"body":"intertwined with these other questions, and you can't just"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":499.391,"endTime":502.672,"body":"sort of disentangle what we think of as science from all"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":502.672,"endTime":507.932,"body":"sorts of other things. And so in some ways, you can't do this"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":507.932,"endTime":508.6,"body":"kind of work"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":509.331,"endTime":513.052,"body":"in a way that's specifically and totally isolated to science."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":513.052,"endTime":516.231,"body":"It's really gonna be very general. And so I do think that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":516.231,"endTime":520.392,"body":"in the end, these kinds of helps that we're"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":520.392,"endTime":524.032,"body":"trying to produce, can help us think better about politics,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":524.032,"endTime":526.652,"body":"religion, maybe even the Bible, you know, all these other things"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":526.652,"endTime":529.871,"body":"that you mentioned as well. So I hope that it will be very"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":529.871,"endTime":531.072,"body":"generally helpful to people."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":531.072,"endTime":532.552,"body":"I think there's... [clears throat] Yeah, if we, if"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":532.552,"endTime":535.192,"body":"we could do something to turn down the heat and turn up the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":535.192,"endTime":535.631,"body":"light,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":536.312,"endTime":539.072,"body":"then that would be incredibly helpful in the cultural moment"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":539.072,"endTime":539.932,"body":"that we're in."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":539.932,"endTime":541.292,"body":"And what we don't want to do, though, is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":541.292,"endTime":543.321,"body":"have people ignore their emotions,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":543.851,"endTime":546.851,"body":"because we think emotions are actually really helpful."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":546.851,"endTime":548.371,"body":"All right. Well, let's, let's, let's deal with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":548.371,"endTime":551.812,"body":"that for a moment. What- tell-- Let's be clear about this w- at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":551.812,"endTime":553.591,"body":"the beginning. What's so important"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":554.532,"endTime":556.192,"body":"about identifying"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":557.491,"endTime":560.751,"body":"your emo- your emotions, your emotional reaction as part of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":560.751,"endTime":563.951,"body":"the engagement with these controversial issues? 'Cause I,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":563.951,"endTime":566.011,"body":"I think, I think we would all admit, if we think about it,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":566.652,"endTime":571.272,"body":"that these all have, pr- they all produce emotional reactions."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":571.272,"endTime":571.672,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":571.672,"endTime":574.312,"body":"And particularly the way discourse is going in our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":574.312,"endTime":577.772,"body":"culture, we tend to sort of skip the reasons-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":577.772,"endTime":578.072,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":578.072,"endTime":580.912,"body":"... And go right to [chuckles] the emotional"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":580.912,"endTime":585.272,"body":"reag- reaction and try to either, you know, articulate it,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":585.272,"endTime":589.251,"body":"or we resort to name-calling or some other sort of ad hominem"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":589.251,"endTime":589.682,"body":"argument-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":589.682,"endTime":589.682,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":589.682,"endTime":591.052,"body":"... Where we critique the person-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":591.052,"endTime":591.471,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":591.471,"endTime":593.412,"body":"... And not the position. But reasons seem to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":593.412,"endTime":594.711,"body":"have gone out the window-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":594.711,"endTime":595.292,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":595.292,"endTime":598.292,"body":"... On this. So but let's, let's just isolate the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":598.292,"endTime":601.662,"body":"the part on our emotions. Why- what's so important about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":601.662,"endTime":602.081,"body":"that?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":602.081,"endTime":604.081,"body":"Yeah. Good. Yeah, thank you for asking that."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":604.081,"endTime":607.011,"body":"I mean, the first thing to notice is that there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":607.011,"endTime":611.292,"body":"very strong evidence that if we're not careful, our emotions"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":611.292,"endTime":615.072,"body":"can overwhelm our ability to think clearly about particular"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":615.072,"endTime":615.591,"body":"issues."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":616.831,"endTime":619.432,"body":"I mean, in particular, you might think about negative emotions"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":619.432,"endTime":625.032,"body":"like anger or disgust. These things tend to short-circuit our"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":625.032,"endTime":629.511,"body":"thinking and leave us prone to react rather than to reason"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":629.511,"endTime":634.172,"body":"carefully. But nevertheless, we think that emotions are an"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":634.172,"endTime":638.652,"body":"important part of reasoning, because emotions open us to the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":638.652,"endTime":641.172,"body":"evaluative parts of the world, the parts of the world that are"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":641.172,"endTime":644.812,"body":"about what's good and bad, right and wrong. And not only do they"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":644.812,"endTime":648.491,"body":"open us to those parts of the world, they motivate us to care,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":648.491,"endTime":651.831,"body":"and they shape our attention. I mean, this is really easy to see"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":651.831,"endTime":655.831,"body":"when you think about a case of being afraid. When you're afraid"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":655.831,"endTime":660.341,"body":"in a scenario, you'll find yourself focused very carefully"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":660.341,"endTime":662.812,"body":"[chuckles] on the thing that's causing the fear. Like, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":662.812,"endTime":665.812,"body":"know, I remember, when my kids were young, we used to go"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":665.812,"endTime":668.951,"body":"to the zoo, quite a bit. And, you know, San Diego Zoo is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":668.951,"endTime":671.211,"body":"fantastic. They've got this safari park, and in the safari"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":671.211,"endTime":674.091,"body":"park, there's this space where there's, like, a lion, and it's"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":674.091,"endTime":679.091,"body":"just behind this pane of glass. And if that lion, this gigantic,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":679.091,"endTime":682.251,"body":"you know, male lion, were to get up and start charging at that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":682.251,"endTime":684.851,"body":"glass, I would find myself feeling very afraid, even though"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":684.851,"endTime":686.491,"body":"I'm not in any danger, and I think there's something"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":686.491,"endTime":688.871,"body":"appropriate to that. But I'll tell you, it's gonna be really"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":688.871,"endTime":691.412,"body":"hard to attend to anything but that charging lion in that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":691.412,"endTime":691.841,"body":"moment."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":691.841,"endTime":691.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":691.841,"endTime":693.221,"body":"And that's not bad. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":693.221,"endTime":693.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":693.231,"endTime":695.591,"body":"That's really good. You w- you need that kind"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":695.591,"endTime":698.711,"body":"of stuff because what that's helping you to realize is that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":698.711,"endTime":702.192,"body":"there's a danger in your environment. And emotions, not"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":702.192,"endTime":706.172,"body":"just negative ones, but positive ones as well, open us to those"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":706.172,"endTime":709.751,"body":"kinds of-- those aspects of reality, help us to attend to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":709.751,"endTime":713.692,"body":"them well, and motivate us to care about the right things when"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":713.692,"endTime":717.211,"body":"our emotions are working as they ought. The danger is, if they"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":717.211,"endTime":721.192,"body":"get out of whack, you can go off the rails. And so we have to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":721.192,"endTime":725.011,"body":"find ways to use our emotions in the right way, but not be"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":725.011,"endTime":726.111,"body":"overwhelmed by them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":726.111,"endTime":726.292,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":727.412,"endTime":728.572,"body":"I take it that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.751,"endTime":730.812,"body":"most people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":731.351,"endTime":732.312,"body":"in the broader culture"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":732.831,"endTime":736.312,"body":"would see emotions on one end and rationality on the other,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":736.312,"endTime":737.77,"body":"sort of as polar extremes."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":737.77,"endTime":738.292,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":738.292,"endTime":741.091,"body":"Hey, why do we view it that way?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":742.894,"endTime":744.183,"body":"We'll just start with that."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":744.183,"endTime":744.504,"body":"Oh! [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":745.203,"endTime":746.903,"body":"that's a long story, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":746.903,"endTime":748.134,"body":"Well, give it to me."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":748.134,"endTime":748.163,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":748.163,"endTime":749.504,"body":"Give me, give me the short version."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":749.504,"endTime":751.563,"body":"Yeah, I mean, there- basically, there's"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":751.563,"endTime":754.864,"body":"a very prominent philosophical tradition"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":755.644,"endTime":759.214,"body":"tracing back, you know, a long way, and it's, it's complex,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":760.114,"endTime":763.482,"body":"and interesting, I think. But there's this tradition that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":763.482,"endTime":767.014,"body":"leads us to think that our emotions are just feelings,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":767.803,"endTime":772.203,"body":"and that they don't really tell us anything about the world."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":772.203,"endTime":775.043,"body":"They might make something valuable, they might motivate"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":775.043,"endTime":778.342,"body":"you to act, but they're not responses that can be evaluated"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":778.342,"endTime":781.783,"body":"for being right and wrong or good and bad to things in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":781.783,"endTime":782.102,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":782.842,"endTime":787.384,"body":"And so that tradition has become very prominent in our culture"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":787.384,"endTime":788.163,"body":"today."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":788.783,"endTime":791.482,"body":"And it's, it's the kind of thing that would lead you to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":791.482,"endTime":795.443,"body":"think that reasons, and rationality, and thinking well"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":795.443,"endTime":798.384,"body":"are going to be totally disconnected from your emotional"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":798.384,"endTime":801.403,"body":"life, from how you feel. And I think in the Christian"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":801.403,"endTime":804.244,"body":"tradition, and I think you see this in the Scriptures too,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":804.244,"endTime":806.222,"body":"that's not the right way to think about it. I think our"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":806.222,"endTime":811.423,"body":"feelings are given to us by God to help us notice and attend to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":811.423,"endTime":814.423,"body":"certain things in the world, and they're broken just like our"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":814.423,"endTime":818.423,"body":"mind is. And so we have to learn in community to discern these"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":818.423,"endTime":818.793,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":819.722,"endTime":821.504,"body":"Which is, which is why we can overreact"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":821.504,"endTime":822.303,"body":"emotionally-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":822.303,"endTime":822.573,"body":"Correct"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":822.573,"endTime":824.163,"body":"... Or under- or underreact"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":824.803,"endTime":825.783,"body":"emotionally. Uh-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":825.783,"endTime":828.644,"body":"I think anybody who's parented a child knows"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":828.644,"endTime":832.014,"body":"that this is possible. We have to train our kids not only to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":832.014,"endTime":834.644,"body":"care about the right things and to feel that care-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":834.644,"endTime":836.104,"body":"I thought you were referring to the, [chuckles] the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":836.104,"endTime":837.014,"body":"parents."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":837.014,"endTime":838.243,"body":"[laughs] Oh, well, the parents, too,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":838.243,"endTime":838.403,"body":"obviously."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":838.403,"endTime":840.104,"body":"The parents' emotions on this."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":840.104,"endTime":842.124,"body":"But, but everybody has told their child,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":842.124,"endTime":843.403,"body":"\"You're overreacting.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":843.403,"endTime":843.884,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":843.884,"endTime":846.124,"body":"Right? And that's to say, your feelings are"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":846.124,"endTime":849.104,"body":"out of whack with reality. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":849.104,"endTime":851.243,"body":"feel at all. That would be a terrible thing-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":851.243,"endTime":851.254,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":851.254,"endTime":855.264,"body":"... To say to a child. We want to feel the right"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":855.264,"endTime":858.903,"body":"things in the right moments, and so, this is basically trying to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":858.903,"endTime":862.823,"body":"help people learn how to discern what their emotions are actually"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":862.823,"endTime":866.303,"body":"contributing to the process of thought."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":866.303,"endTime":867.083,"body":"All right, so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":868.283,"endTime":868.943,"body":"let's, let's be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":869.982,"endTime":873.964,"body":"really clear about this. Why, why do these controversial"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":873.964,"endTime":874.533,"body":"issues"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":875.663,"endTime":877.354,"body":"so often trigger"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":877.943,"endTime":882.504,"body":"emotional responses? Because it would, it would seem to me that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":882.504,"endTime":885.243,"body":"we wanna we-- to resolve these, we need to keep our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":885.243,"endTime":888.964,"body":"emotions out of the picture and just concentrate on rationality,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":888.964,"endTime":892.493,"body":"but that's not the way it works. What- why d- the... And,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":892.493,"endTime":895.124,"body":"and we-- I've seen, you know, we've seen people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":895.743,"endTime":897.004,"body":"on all sorts of issues"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":897.783,"endTime":897.982,"body":"just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":898.683,"endTime":899.764,"body":"go crazy-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":899.764,"endTime":900.063,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":900.063,"endTime":901.203,"body":"... Emotionally."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":901.203,"endTime":901.573,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":901.573,"endTime":903.323,"body":"Be- and bec- and the reason for that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":903.323,"endTime":905.583,"body":"sometimes is it touches them personally."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":905.583,"endTime":906.024,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":906.024,"endTime":908.604,"body":"It's, you know, it's part of their own story."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":909.203,"endTime":912.163,"body":"But there's some- and, but other issues that don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":912.163,"endTime":912.842,"body":"trigger anybody,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":913.403,"endTime":914.563,"body":"hardly anything at all-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":914.563,"endTime":914.842,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":914.842,"endTime":917.764,"body":"... From some people. So help us understand"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":917.764,"endTime":918.482,"body":"that a bit."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":918.482,"endTime":920.644,"body":"I think the short answer to this question"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":921.364,"endTime":926.303,"body":"is that our emotions are designed to alert us to things"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":926.303,"endTime":928.073,"body":"that matter."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":928.073,"endTime":929.243,"body":"That's a good way to put it."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":929.243,"endTime":931.524,"body":"Because if you, if you think about what you're"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":931.524,"endTime":935.703,"body":"taking in, just even in s- looking at a, at a scene or"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":935.703,"endTime":940.303,"body":"hearing, you're always making choices about what to attend to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":940.303,"endTime":941.453,"body":"and what not to attend to."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":942.443,"endTime":946.923,"body":"And emotions are... A big part of what emotions do is help us"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":947.504,"endTime":950.403,"body":"help direct our attention to parts of the world that matter"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":950.403,"endTime":955.063,"body":"and that don't. And so emotional responses are a natural part of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":955.063,"endTime":960.583,"body":"engaging with the world that has good things, bad things,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":960.583,"endTime":963.683,"body":"positive things, negative things. So our emotions are"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":963.683,"endTime":969.264,"body":"meant to open our hearts to those parts of reality, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":969.264,"endTime":972.374,"body":"because of that, it's also connected to things that matter,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":973.423,"endTime":977.644,"body":"and that make- that means that when they happen, they can often"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":977.644,"endTime":980.403,"body":"be very big, [chuckles] right? And sometimes it's good to have"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":980.403,"endTime":983.043,"body":"big emotions about things. You want to feel"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":983.842,"endTime":986.864,"body":"well, and if you're confronted with something that is just"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":986.864,"endTime":990.423,"body":"profoundly good, you want to feel that goodness. If you're"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":990.423,"endTime":992.884,"body":"confronted with something that's profoundly bad, you want to feel"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":992.884,"endTime":996.104,"body":"that badness. And so a part of what's going on in these"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":996.104,"endTime":999.283,"body":"negotiations about these controversial questions is that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":999.283,"endTime":1002.322,"body":"they're often connected to moral issues or theological issues,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1002.322,"endTime":1005.403,"body":"things that really matter to people, and that means"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1005.403,"endTime":1009.283,"body":"that the emotions are gonna be heightened. And, and again, just"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1009.283,"endTime":1013.163,"body":"like every part of ourselves, our emotions are subject to the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1013.163,"endTime":1015.722,"body":"effects of the fall, and so these things can get out of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1015.722,"endTime":1018.823,"body":"whack. You can feel too much, you can feel too little, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1018.823,"endTime":1020.893,"body":"because of that, there's going to be,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1021.703,"endTime":1023.524,"body":"friction when you're in community"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1024.324,"endTime":1027.384,"body":"in these kinds of spaces."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1027.384,"endTime":1029.222,"body":"Now, I think-- I wonder if part of the reason"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1029.222,"endTime":1029.943,"body":"that we don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1030.844,"endTime":1034.604,"body":"take our emotions into account when dealing with controversial"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1034.604,"endTime":1037.923,"body":"issues is because we might be afraid of them."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1037.923,"endTime":1038.502,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1038.502,"endTime":1041.042,"body":"We might be afraid of how deeply we're going to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1041.042,"endTime":1044.134,"body":"feel about something, or we might be afraid of the fact"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1044.134,"endTime":1046.304,"body":"that, [chuckles] you know, we don't feel much at all about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1046.304,"endTime":1047.443,"body":"something that we should-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1047.443,"endTime":1047.903,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1047.903,"endTime":1050.903,"body":"... Actually feel strongly about. I mean, I've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1050.903,"endTime":1054.923,"body":"heard this repeatedly in the abortion debate. You know, when"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1054.923,"endTime":1058.923,"body":"you see visual images of what the afterproduct of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1058.923,"endTime":1060.023,"body":"abortion looks like-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1060.663,"endTime":1064.463,"body":"... That's designed specifically to stir up your emotions."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1065.364,"endTime":1068.243,"body":"And I think, you know, if it's, if it's sup- exposing you to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1068.243,"endTime":1071.023,"body":"reality, you know, rightly so."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1071.723,"endTime":1074.864,"body":"But there are others who, they just, they shy away from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1074.864,"endTime":1077.523,"body":"all that, I think because, I think maybe because they're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1077.523,"endTime":1081.563,"body":"afraid of what is going to be unearthed once they start to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1081.563,"endTime":1082.403,"body":"think and to feel"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1083.243,"endTime":1084.983,"body":"what's, what may be very appropriate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1085.584,"endTime":1086.864,"body":"to do so."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1086.864,"endTime":1089.084,"body":"I mean, I couldn't agree with you more."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1089.743,"endTime":1093.963,"body":"It's also true that we carry memories in our emotions as"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1093.963,"endTime":1097.824,"body":"well, and so, you know, emotion is something that connects"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1097.824,"endTime":1101.324,"body":"our minds together in certain ways. And so when we encounter"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1101.324,"endTime":1104.796,"body":"certain scenes-... And feel certain things, those feelings"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1104.796,"endTime":1107.996,"body":"can remind us of other things, too. Now, again, that can be"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1107.996,"endTime":1111.615,"body":"good if something prompts a feeling that reminds you of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1111.615,"endTime":1115.256,"body":"something very positive that you've experienced before, but"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1115.256,"endTime":1118.675,"body":"it can also be very negative if it prompts a s- a feeling"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1118.675,"endTime":1121.596,"body":"that reminds you of something in your past that is"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1121.596,"endTime":1125.516,"body":"traumatic, right? And so emotions don't kind of stay"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1125.516,"endTime":1130.036,"body":"isolated. They, they bring up other parts of our"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1130.036,"endTime":1133.915,"body":"selves to consciousness, and that can also lead to,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1134.915,"endTime":1136.496,"body":"you know, these kinds of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1137.135,"endTime":1140.976,"body":"conflictual spaces being more heated than maybe, they would"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1140.976,"endTime":1145.496,"body":"otherwise be. But, you know, that needs to be worked through."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1145.496,"endTime":1147.695,"body":"It doesn't need to be avoided."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1147.695,"endTime":1150.336,"body":"All right. Now, let's just, let's say a little"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1150.336,"endTime":1151.056,"body":"bit about,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1152.855,"endTime":1155.536,"body":"how our emotions-- Let's be clear, so let's be clear about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1155.536,"endTime":1158.816,"body":"this- how do our emotions affect our ability to reason"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1160.435,"endTime":1163.056,"body":"about a particular issue?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1164.016,"endTime":1164.996,"body":"That's a great question."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1165.556,"endTime":1167.835,"body":"I think we should start by thinking about what an emotion"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1167.835,"endTime":1168.215,"body":"is,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1168.996,"endTime":1171.836,"body":"and the interesting thing is that that's really hard to say."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1171.836,"endTime":1172.875,"body":"[chuckles] But"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1173.516,"endTime":1173.895,"body":"the-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1173.895,"endTime":1175.155,"body":"I know it when I feel it."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1175.155,"endTime":1176.756,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, you do know it when you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1176.756,"endTime":1177.056,"body":"feel it,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1177.655,"endTime":1181.355,"body":"but, you know, carving them out and separating them from other"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1181.355,"endTime":1184.455,"body":"kinds of our, of mental things is hard, but"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1185.056,"endTime":1187.976,"body":"emotions at least involve three things. They involve a kind of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1187.976,"endTime":1191.455,"body":"feeling. Often, that's a bodily sort of feeling, so emotions are"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1191.455,"endTime":1194.945,"body":"mental, but they're not just mental. They involve, uh-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1194.945,"endTime":1196.836,"body":"That's why we say we feel it in our gut."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1196.836,"endTime":1199.236,"body":"That's right, or you feel it in your chest, or"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1199.236,"endTime":1200.165,"body":"you know, you feel it als-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1200.165,"endTime":1200.165,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1200.165,"endTime":1202.115,"body":"... In all sorts of places, right? So the,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1202.115,"endTime":1206.746,"body":"the feeling is an important part of emotion. An evaluation is an,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1206.746,"endTime":1211.296,"body":"a, is a part of emotion. Emotions present as positively"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1211.296,"endTime":1214.695,"body":"or negatively evaluating something. Sometimes you don't"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1214.695,"endTime":1215.445,"body":"even know what that is."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1215.445,"endTime":1215.455,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1215.455,"endTime":1216.496,"body":"Like when you wake up in the middle of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1216.496,"endTime":1219.455,"body":"night afraid, you don't know what you're afraid of, but there"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1219.455,"endTime":1222.695,"body":"is some-- There, the... If there is nothing to be afraid of, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1222.695,"endTime":1225.556,"body":"then know that your emotion is out of whack, right? Or you can"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1225.556,"endTime":1228.955,"body":"say, \"I'm afraid of that,\" or, \"I'm happy about this,\" right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1228.955,"endTime":1231.516,"body":"So there's an evaluation. It's generally got a positive or a"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1231.516,"endTime":1234.756,"body":"negative valence, and then there's a motivation to act in"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1234.756,"endTime":1239.115,"body":"some way. So disgust motivates you to move away from a thing."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1239.115,"endTime":1242.465,"body":"You know, happiness motivates you to move toward a thing. You"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1242.465,"endTime":1246.895,"body":"know, those things. So feeling, evaluation, motivation."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1246.895,"endTime":1247.056,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1247.675,"endTime":1250.695,"body":"how do emotions affect our ability to reason? I think we"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1250.695,"endTime":1254.496,"body":"can connect that to certain of these aspects. For example, one"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1254.496,"endTime":1259.234,"body":"of the motivations that emotions give is a motivation to care,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1259.234,"endTime":1263.135,"body":"and it-- that will motivate us to stay attentive. So if you're"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1263.135,"endTime":1263.655,"body":"feeling"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1264.476,"endTime":1268.655,"body":"fear, like go back to that lion scenario, if you're fearful of a"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1268.655,"endTime":1271.455,"body":"lion charging at you, that's motivating you to care about"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1271.455,"endTime":1274.076,"body":"finding safety, [chuckles] right? And it's keeping you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1274.076,"endTime":1276.855,"body":"attentive. You're attentive on your environment in a certain"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1276.855,"endTime":1280.336,"body":"way, and that will help you reason about where to go or how"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1280.336,"endTime":1284.375,"body":"to avoid or adjust, you know, the situation in certain ways to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1284.375,"endTime":1288.635,"body":"try to make yourself more safe. So emotions are often focusing"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1288.635,"endTime":1291.996,"body":"our attention on particular things in our environment, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1291.996,"endTime":1295.615,"body":"that's really important because what that does is it helps us"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1295.615,"endTime":1299.395,"body":"work through all of the things that we're taking in so that we"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1299.395,"endTime":1303.175,"body":"can come to conclusions that are relevant and important for us as"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1303.175,"endTime":1306.076,"body":"we try to navigate the world. So I think that's a big part of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1306.076,"endTime":1309.796,"body":"what emotions can help us do as we're trying to think through an"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1309.796,"endTime":1313.816,"body":"issue, is motivate us to care, get our attention fixed on"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1313.816,"endTime":1316.976,"body":"things that really matter, and then work through that,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1317.796,"endTime":1319.816,"body":"in a way that can be useful."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1319.816,"endTime":1322.336,"body":"And I take it that our emotions can also"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1322.336,"endTime":1323.556,"body":"inhibit us-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1323.556,"endTime":1323.955,"body":"Oh, sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1323.955,"endTime":1325.135,"body":"... From reasoning well."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1325.135,"endTime":1329.375,"body":"Yes. That's right. So, for example, if you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1329.375,"endTime":1329.875,"body":"are,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1330.496,"endTime":1333.816,"body":"feeling a lot of fear, you're gonna have a very hard time..."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1333.816,"endTime":1337.016,"body":"So if you're feeling fear in an inappropriate way, you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1337.016,"endTime":1338.915,"body":"have a very hard time attending to other things in your"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1338.915,"endTime":1342.056,"body":"environment. Here's an example of that, just as a kind of, a"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1342.056,"endTime":1345.976,"body":"kind of funny example. So I have a fear of falling, not a fear of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1345.976,"endTime":1349.855,"body":"heights, just of falling. And, there was a time when,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1349.855,"endTime":1350.006,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1350.935,"endTime":1354.895,"body":"my family and I were camping out on an island in the Puget Sound,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1354.895,"endTime":1357.935,"body":"on Whidbey Island, at, near this place called Fort Ebey, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1357.935,"endTime":1361.875,"body":"there's this bluff at, that kind of looks out over the Puget"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1361.875,"endTime":1364.635,"body":"Sound. It's beautiful, and w- and we were there with some"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1364.635,"endTime":1367.435,"body":"friends, and my daughter was very young, and at the time, she"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1367.435,"endTime":1371.195,"body":"was a little bit, prone to tripping and falling, shall we"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1371.195,"endTime":1372.885,"body":"say? And- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1372.885,"endTime":1372.885,"body":"Terrific."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1372.885,"endTime":1375.215,"body":"[chuckles] Yeah. So we were out watching"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1375.215,"endTime":1379.536,"body":"the sunset over the Puget Sound, and my daughter is running"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1379.536,"endTime":1383.685,"body":"around toward the edge of this bluff, and I know in my head"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1383.685,"endTime":1386.316,"body":"that from where I was sitting, it looks like a pretty sheer"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1386.316,"endTime":1389.935,"body":"drop-off down to a rocky beach that's like, you know, hundreds"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1389.935,"endTime":1393.526,"body":"of feet below. But I know that she's safe because actually it's"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1393.526,"endTime":1396.556,"body":"not as sharp of a cutoff as it looks like from where, my"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1396.556,"endTime":1399.395,"body":"vantage point. But at the same time, I have a fear of falling,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1399.395,"endTime":1402.455,"body":"and I care very deeply about my daughter, and so I found myself"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1402.455,"endTime":1405.695,"body":"afraid that she would trip. And, like, I think I was being a"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1405.695,"endTime":1408.395,"body":"good parent in this moment because I avoided intervening"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1408.395,"endTime":1411.695,"body":"because she was completely safe, and I wanted her to enjoy the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1411.695,"endTime":1416.115,"body":"joy of just running around, you know, in this field on this"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1416.115,"endTime":1420.036,"body":"beautiful island. And so I didn't intervene, but trying to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1420.036,"endTime":1422.596,"body":"watch the sunset was an impossible task for me-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1422.596,"endTime":1422.605,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1422.605,"endTime":1424.935,"body":"... Because all I could attend to was her feet"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1425.715,"endTime":1429.776,"body":"because of my fear. Now, that's a place where what I'm-- I"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1429.776,"endTime":1432.655,"body":"should be taking in, what's really valuable, given the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1432.655,"endTime":1435.395,"body":"reality of the situation, I was distracted from"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1436.536,"endTime":1440.076,"body":"by this emotion that I was feeling that was not appropriate"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1440.076,"endTime":1444.056,"body":"to the world. So that's a case where I'm being distracted from"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1444.056,"endTime":1446.836,"body":"something that matters by feeling a certain thing about"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1446.836,"endTime":1448.576,"body":"something that I shouldn't be worried about,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1449.276,"endTime":1451.115,"body":"and I... We have to be honest about that, too."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1451.115,"endTime":1451.665,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1451.665,"endTime":1453.256,"body":"That's, that's possible, and it happens all the"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1453.256,"endTime":1454.115,"body":"time, I think."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1454.115,"endTime":1456.076,"body":"Don't feel bad about that. I had a child that almost"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1456.076,"endTime":1457.875,"body":"fell into the Grand Canyon, so-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1457.875,"endTime":1458.865,"body":"Oh, heavens. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1459.556,"endTime":1460.086,"body":"Don't-- I don't wanna hear about it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1460.086,"endTime":1461.056,"body":"It's a long... It's, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1461.056,"endTime":1461.786,"body":"That's not gonna help my fear of falling."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1461.786,"endTime":1462.776,"body":"You don't wanna know about that."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1462.776,"endTime":1463.935,"body":"My irrational fear of falling is-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1463.935,"endTime":1464.234,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1464.234,"endTime":1464.576,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1464.576,"endTime":1464.756,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1465.435,"endTime":1469.92,"body":"I take it you have some sort of advice or some-... Sort"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1469.92,"endTime":1472.2,"body":"of practices to help people from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1473.0,"endTime":1476.259,"body":"either over-emphasizing or under-emphasizing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1477.099,"endTime":1477.839,"body":"emotions?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1478.44,"endTime":1481.359,"body":"And that's just sort of in general, not just related to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1481.359,"endTime":1484.48,"body":"these controversial issues, but how do, how do, how do you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1484.48,"endTime":1487.16,"body":"help people keep those in balance?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1487.16,"endTime":1489.4,"body":"The process that we've developed has six"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1489.4,"endTime":1492.059,"body":"steps, and I think I can describe them very briefly. So"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1492.059,"endTime":1495.599,"body":"the first step is to just pause, and this is especially when you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1495.599,"endTime":1498.638,"body":"find that your emotions are heightened. And pausing creates"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1498.638,"endTime":1502.9,"body":"space to respond thoughtfully rather than to just react. The"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1502.9,"endTime":1505.22,"body":"second thing is that you actually have to feel."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1506.279,"endTime":1507.71,"body":"You have to learn to identify-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1507.71,"endTime":1507.799,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1507.799,"endTime":1509.059,"body":"... And understand your emotions. And I"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1509.059,"endTime":1511.579,"body":"think for certain people, this is very easy, and for other"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1511.579,"endTime":1515.44,"body":"people, this is very hard. So some of us repress, some of us,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1515.44,"endTime":1519.96,"body":"you know, just react, and so, different people will have to f-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1519.96,"endTime":1524.599,"body":"learn how to feel, to different degrees. Third, you have to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1524.599,"endTime":1528.5,"body":"actually reflect. So this is meant to prompt us to appreciate"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1528.5,"endTime":1531.2,"body":"what our emotions are telling us about ourselves and the world"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1531.2,"endTime":1536.119,"body":"around us. So pause, feel, and then reflect. Take, take stock."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1536.119,"endTime":1538.638,"body":"The fourth thing, when you're trying to answer a question that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1538.638,"endTime":1540.638,"body":"raises an emotion, you don't want to ignore that emotion."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1540.638,"endTime":1543.519,"body":"That's why you pause, feel, and reflect, but you also need to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1543.519,"endTime":1546.259,"body":"investigate. You have to, you have to consider whether there"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1546.259,"endTime":1548.9,"body":"might be information or evidence about the question that's"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1548.9,"endTime":1552.72,"body":"independent from your emotions. And fifth, you then need to kind"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1552.72,"endTime":1556.0,"body":"of organize all of that together. You need to take stock"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1556.0,"endTime":1558.24,"body":"of the information and evidence you have about these questions,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1558.24,"endTime":1562.5,"body":"including what's coming from your emotions. And then sixth,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1562.5,"endTime":1567.059,"body":"you form a judgment. You decide. And this is where you sort"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1567.059,"endTime":1570.759,"body":"of say, \"Okay, given what I've taken stock of, given how strong"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1570.759,"endTime":1573.619,"body":"my evidence is, given how, you know, I think I've, I've"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1573.619,"endTime":1577.259,"body":"gathered as much as I can,\" you say, \"This is the judgment that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1577.259,"endTime":1580.859,"body":"I'm coming to about this question, using that evidence as"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1580.859,"endTime":1584.22,"body":"a guide.\" And then you stay open to kind of moving back through"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1584.22,"endTime":1587.119,"body":"that process when new experiences, new arguments, new"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1587.119,"endTime":1591.079,"body":"information, even new emotions come to the fore when you're,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1591.079,"endTime":1593.119,"body":"you know, encountering that issue again."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1593.68,"endTime":1596.72,"body":"So that process, pause, feel, reflect, investigate,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1596.72,"endTime":1599.92,"body":"organize, decide, that may sound intimidating, but it's actually"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1599.92,"endTime":1602.339,"body":"meant to be something that we're kind of constantly running"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1602.339,"endTime":1606.159,"body":"through as we're trying to learn what the world is like and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1606.159,"endTime":1607.599,"body":"the God who made it is like, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1608.119,"endTime":1610.92,"body":"that-- I think that's, that's, the sort of short version."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1610.92,"endTime":1612.839,"body":"All right, let's take a hypothetical case"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1613.839,"endTime":1616.94,"body":"to apply that, to apply that to."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1617.819,"endTime":1620.98,"body":"Let's, let's say that you're in a, you're in a conversation with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1620.98,"endTime":1621.779,"body":"one of your neighbors"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1622.579,"endTime":1623.539,"body":"about their,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1624.339,"endTime":1625.98,"body":"you know, a kid in your school"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1626.779,"endTime":1629.659,"body":"that has, is- has transgender types of issues."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1629.659,"endTime":1630.638,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1630.638,"endTime":1634.339,"body":"And the issue is, say they're, they're 14, 15"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1634.339,"endTime":1636.46,"body":"years old, and the issue is,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1637.339,"endTime":1638.019,"body":"should"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1638.779,"endTime":1641.46,"body":"this adolescent, we'll, we'll say it's an adolescent girl,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1642.74,"endTime":1645.579,"body":"be allowed to have gender-affirming"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1646.279,"endTime":1648.539,"body":"hormones and surgery,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1649.059,"endTime":1650.74,"body":"while she's a minor?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1651.74,"endTime":1654.859,"body":"You know, sh- w- should that be allowed or should"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1654.859,"endTime":1655.94,"body":"that be prohibited?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1655.94,"endTime":1656.659,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1656.659,"endTime":1656.88,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1657.94,"endTime":1662.119,"body":"Take us through how you would go through each of those steps to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1662.119,"endTime":1665.88,"body":"apply it to that particular issue and the... You know, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1665.88,"endTime":1668.38,"body":"just imagine what that conversation might look like."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1668.38,"endTime":1672.059,"body":"Yeah. I mean, you know, for people like"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1672.059,"endTime":1675.17,"body":"you and me, and I'm sure a lot of our listeners who have,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1676.019,"endTime":1679.92,"body":"sort of orthodox views about gender and sexuality, these"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1679.92,"endTime":1685.559,"body":"kinds of cases raise all sorts of m- emotions, many of them"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1685.559,"endTime":1688.039,"body":"negative, as we consider this kind of question."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1688.039,"endTime":1688.68,"body":"Such as?"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1688.68,"endTime":1690.42,"body":"So, for example, you might,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1690.98,"endTime":1691.339,"body":"feel"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1692.0,"endTime":1695.099,"body":"disgust as you consider the possibility of these things. You"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1695.099,"endTime":1700.22,"body":"might feel angry at a healthcare provider who would even consider"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1700.22,"endTime":1703.599,"body":"doing this to a child, right? Those are the kinds of things I"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1703.599,"endTime":1704.23,"body":"have in mind."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1704.23,"endTime":1704.619,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1704.619,"endTime":1704.96,"body":"Um-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1704.96,"endTime":1706.119,"body":"On the, on the other side-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1706.119,"endTime":1709.0,"body":"You also might feel compassion for this child"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1709.0,"endTime":1712.759,"body":"who is wrestling with some serious issues, and you might"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1712.759,"endTime":1713.599,"body":"feel,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1714.72,"endTime":1719.0,"body":"sad for your neighbor who is walking with a child through"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1719.0,"endTime":1721.88,"body":"these kinds of things. And, you know, other people with other"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1721.88,"endTime":1725.2,"body":"sort of ideological views, they might feel different things. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1725.2,"endTime":1727.68,"body":"this is part of what makes these kinds of questions so fraught,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1727.68,"endTime":1730.079,"body":"is because the emotions often push in different directions,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1730.079,"endTime":1731.5,"body":"right? So-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1731.5,"endTime":1732.44,"body":"That's why I picked it. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1732.44,"endTime":1733.529,"body":"Yeah. Well, I figured."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1733.529,"endTime":1733.559,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1733.559,"endTime":1734.929,"body":"Thanks for giving me an easy one."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1735.68,"endTime":1739.519,"body":"So the first step, again, is just pause, and so when your"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1739.519,"endTime":1741.94,"body":"emotions are heightened, you wanna just say, \"My emotions are"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1741.94,"endTime":1743.859,"body":"heightened. What are they trying to tell me?\" And so then you,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1743.859,"endTime":1747.0,"body":"you have to feel them. You have to say, \"What are the emotions"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1747.0,"endTime":1751.599,"body":"that I'm feeling, and how should I think about them?\" And that's"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1751.599,"endTime":1755.638,"body":"a reflective process whereby you try to say, \"What about this"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1755.638,"endTime":1759.609,"body":"makes me feel disgust, or sadness, or anger, or"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1759.609,"endTime":1764.638,"body":"compassion, or whatever it is? How-- What is that showing me"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1764.638,"endTime":1765.599,"body":"about the world"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1766.779,"endTime":1770.2,"body":"when I reflect on that emotion being present,\" right? And"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1770.2,"endTime":1773.98,"body":"sometimes you'll find that these things are directed in ways that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1773.98,"endTime":1777.45,"body":"are very helpful, and sometimes you'll... Like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1778.4,"endTime":1780.5,"body":"the case where the lion's running at you and you feel"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1780.5,"endTime":1782.38,"body":"fear, that's a really helpful emotion-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1782.38,"endTime":1782.638,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1782.638,"endTime":1784.619,"body":"... And it's apt. Sometimes you'll find that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1784.619,"endTime":1787.599,"body":"your emotions are inapt, like when I'm looking at my daughter"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1787.599,"endTime":1790.88,"body":"running across, in a completely safe way, this bluff, right? And"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1790.88,"endTime":1794.079,"body":"so that's part of what the reflect thing helps you do. Now,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1794.079,"endTime":1797.339,"body":"depending on who you are and the particulars of the situation,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1797.339,"endTime":1799.859,"body":"the emotions that you feel might be pointing you at different"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1799.859,"endTime":1804.019,"body":"things. So what exactly makes you feel angry? Why are you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1804.019,"endTime":1807.5,"body":"angry about it? And that question can then"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1808.019,"endTime":1808.579,"body":"open up"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1809.42,"endTime":1812.859,"body":"a more careful consideration of whether your emotion is apt"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1812.859,"endTime":1816.138,"body":"or inapt. And then you have to consider, in a case like a"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1816.138,"endTime":1819.38,"body":"transgender question, when you go to the investigate, you wanna"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1819.38,"endTime":1822.049,"body":"know, well, what do the scriptures have to say about"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1822.049,"endTime":1824.539,"body":"these kinds of questions? It's not gonna speak to it in any"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1824.539,"endTime":1827.559,"body":"kind of direct way, but it might help us get a picture of gender"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1827.559,"endTime":1831.659,"body":"and sexuality on the table. What are the sort of risks and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1831.659,"endTime":1834.259,"body":"possibilities in these kinds of things? I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1834.259,"endTime":1836.079,"body":"question we have to ask- ... Even if we think at the end of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1836.079,"endTime":1839.138,"body":"the day, you know, this shouldn't happen. You have to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1839.138,"endTime":1841.94,"body":"know, like, what shouldn't happen exactly. [chuckles] So"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1841.94,"endTime":1845.099,"body":"what-- we have to actually investigate that stuff, and then"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1845.099,"endTime":1849.044,"body":"we use all of these things together to-... In an organized"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1849.044,"endTime":1853.644,"body":"way, decide what we, what we judge about these questions. And"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1853.644,"endTime":1857.824,"body":"hopefully, even doing that ourselves will help us navigate"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1857.824,"endTime":1860.874,"body":"the complexity. I mean, take this kind of case, right? A"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1860.874,"endTime":1863.903,"body":"parent in that situation, especially if they're some kind"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1863.903,"endTime":1867.483,"body":"of conservative-ish Christian, they're going to be going"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1867.483,"endTime":1869.604,"body":"through a lot in that process."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1870.263,"endTime":1873.683,"body":"And if it were me, I would guess I would be back and forth,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1873.683,"endTime":1873.923,"body":"right,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1874.503,"endTime":1878.183,"body":"on thinking, \"Is this good or bad?\" I- knowing that it's,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1878.183,"endTime":1882.604,"body":"on my view, I shouldn't think it's good. However, you can"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1882.604,"endTime":1887.903,"body":"imagine a parent feeling differently in those situations,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1887.903,"endTime":1892.223,"body":"and I think in order to navigate that pastorally with someone, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1892.223,"endTime":1897.144,"body":"have to recognize that that's understandable, and have tools"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1897.144,"endTime":1899.943,"body":"by which we can help people navigate those feelings, too,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1899.943,"endTime":1901.864,"body":"even in a pastoral context."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1901.864,"endTime":1904.824,"body":"Yeah, and that the emotions by themselves"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1904.824,"endTime":1906.544,"body":"don't short-circuit-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1906.544,"endTime":1907.163,"body":"No"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1907.163,"endTime":1909.044,"body":"... Our thinking rationally about it a-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1909.044,"endTime":1909.173,"body":"Correct"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1909.173,"endTime":1909.874,"body":"... As well."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1909.874,"endTime":1910.074,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1910.074,"endTime":1911.144,"body":"And bringing evidence"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1911.683,"endTime":1914.903,"body":"to support the belief that we, that we actually come to form-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1914.903,"endTime":1915.294,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1915.294,"endTime":1915.824,"body":"... On this."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1915.824,"endTime":1918.604,"body":"And our emotions can be part of getting"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1918.604,"endTime":1919.943,"body":"us that evidence."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1920.483,"endTime":1920.983,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1920.983,"endTime":1923.403,"body":"That's... I think that's really helpful. My guess"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1923.403,"endTime":1923.644,"body":"is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1924.223,"endTime":1927.604,"body":"that most people, when they engage a controversial issue"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1927.604,"endTime":1930.144,"body":"like this, that they re- and they find that they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1930.144,"endTime":1932.403,"body":"respond emotionally, don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1933.324,"endTime":1936.403,"body":"stop to take stock of what's going on inside of them. It's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1936.403,"endTime":1936.864,"body":"just-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1936.864,"endTime":1940.294,"body":"I mean, I think anyone who's been online ever"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1941.144,"endTime":1942.614,"body":"knows this. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1942.614,"endTime":1943.003,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1943.003,"endTime":1945.354,"body":"Yeah. I mean, I think I- that's an understated"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1945.354,"endTime":1948.483,"body":"thing, is what I'm saying. You've stated that very kindly."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1948.483,"endTime":1949.763,"body":"I think very often"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1950.304,"endTime":1954.084,"body":"we're not really taking stock of what we feel. We're just acting"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1954.084,"endTime":1956.223,"body":"out of those feelings."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1956.223,"endTime":1958.284,"body":"Right. Right, okay, one final question on this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1958.284,"endTime":1962.064,"body":"Tim. I... This is, this is super helpful, it seems to me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1962.064,"endTime":1965.094,"body":"But how would, how do you want people to use this material"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1966.084,"endTime":1966.903,"body":"as you engage"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1967.564,"endTime":1971.263,"body":"st- controversial stuff? And this is assuming, actually, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1971.263,"endTime":1974.413,"body":"you will actually engage controversial stuff-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1974.413,"endTime":1974.413,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1974.413,"endTime":1975.423,"body":"... From time to time-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1975.423,"endTime":1975.663,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1975.663,"endTime":1978.064,"body":"... Rather than just say, \"I'm out.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1978.064,"endTime":1980.884,"body":"Yes. Well, and this is a big, this is... Our"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1980.884,"endTime":1981.284,"body":"heart"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1983.003,"endTime":1983.804,"body":"is that,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1984.663,"endTime":1987.324,"body":"especially within the Christian community, but in our culture"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1987.324,"endTime":1992.124,"body":"more broadly, there's been a lot of fracturing around these kinds"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1992.124,"endTime":1995.284,"body":"of questions. There's a lot of hurt and a lot of challenge that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1995.284,"endTime":1998.304,"body":"church communities have experienced that... I mean, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":1998.304,"endTime":2000.943,"body":"know, we saw churches split during COVID over these kinds of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2000.943,"endTime":2003.903,"body":"things, and I'm not saying that was always the wrong move."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2003.903,"endTime":2007.564,"body":"I just, it's often acrimonious, and it's, it... You"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2007.564,"endTime":2009.864,"body":"know, we talk about the peace and purity of the Church, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2009.864,"endTime":2013.203,"body":"the peace of the Church has been upset by some of these things."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2013.203,"endTime":2016.003,"body":"And so what we're hoping for"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2016.523,"endTime":2019.903,"body":"is that groups of Christians, and this is what we've built,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2019.903,"endTime":2024.844,"body":"we've built a kind of workbook and a, and a set of tools"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2024.844,"endTime":2029.463,"body":"that groups can use to walk through this six-step process"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2029.463,"endTime":2029.923,"body":"together"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2030.584,"endTime":2035.644,"body":"around questions that are of interest to them. And the hope"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2035.644,"endTime":2041.034,"body":"is that in that process, the hurt and the challenge and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2041.034,"endTime":2044.443,"body":"difficulty that these groups of Christians especially have"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2044.443,"endTime":2046.713,"body":"experienced can,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2048.023,"endTime":2051.224,"body":"be mollified, that some of the past hurts can be healed, that"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2051.224,"endTime":2054.483,"body":"future rifts can be avoided, that we can grow in"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2054.483,"endTime":2056.804,"body":"understanding, even as we disagree and continue to"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2056.804,"endTime":2058.684,"body":"disagree about these things. There's... At the end of this"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2058.684,"endTime":2062.023,"body":"process is not agreement. At the end of this process-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2062.023,"endTime":2062.393,"body":"Right, we're not, yeah, we're not seeking"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2062.393,"endTime":2065.304,"body":"... Is mutual understanding, we hope, mutual"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2065.304,"endTime":2068.943,"body":"understanding, and a, and a kind of more reasoned judgment,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2068.943,"endTime":2071.704,"body":"drawing both on our emotional life but also on the other"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2071.704,"endTime":2074.684,"body":"things at our disposal, like the Scriptures, s- the scientific,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2074.684,"endTime":2078.384,"body":"you know, investigation of things, and so on, of these very"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2078.384,"endTime":2081.884,"body":"difficult questions. And so our fundamental goal is to see"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2081.884,"endTime":2086.123,"body":"Christ's Church edified, even as we wrestle through new and"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2086.123,"endTime":2089.753,"body":"controversial issues and ideas, and we're going to be posting"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2089.753,"endTime":2091.963,"body":"these things online. We're actually grateful that part of"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2091.963,"endTime":2097.384,"body":"the grant says we can't monetize these tools, and so,"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2097.384,"endTime":2100.083,"body":"we're in the final stages of putting the finishing touches on"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2100.083,"endTime":2103.664,"body":"these things, and we'll be posting them, online for"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2103.664,"endTime":2105.364,"body":"anybody to use, and, um-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2105.364,"endTime":2105.764,"body":"Wonderful"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2105.764,"endTime":2108.003,"body":"... Available to help people think about them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2108.003,"endTime":2110.443,"body":"Well, and I think what we can do here, too,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2110.443,"endTime":2115.213,"body":"is once that's available on the web, we'll include a link"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2115.963,"endTime":2119.583,"body":"when we post this parti- this particular session, a link to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2119.583,"endTime":2120.184,"body":"those materials-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2120.184,"endTime":2120.724,"body":"That would be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2120.724,"endTime":2121.123,"body":"... So that our folks-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2121.123,"endTime":2121.824,"body":"We would love that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2121.824,"endTime":2124.224,"body":"... Our folks can a- can access that easily."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2124.224,"endTime":2125.523,"body":"Thank you. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2125.523,"endTime":2128.543,"body":"Yeah, I hope, I hope our listeners appreciate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2128.543,"endTime":2130.884,"body":"sort of the wealth of wisdom"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2131.443,"endTime":2132.603,"body":"that's gone into this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2133.204,"endTime":2137.083,"body":"and I think how potentially incredibly helpful this could be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2137.083,"endTime":2138.403,"body":"in defusing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2139.384,"endTime":2142.744,"body":"what are these really charged,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2143.423,"endTime":2144.463,"body":"conversations-"},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2144.463,"endTime":2144.494,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2144.494,"endTime":2147.123,"body":"... That don't have to be. And that doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2147.123,"endTime":2148.264,"body":"that we're always gonna agree"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2148.884,"endTime":2152.324,"body":"or come to a resolution that everybody's happy with, but at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2152.324,"endTime":2156.784,"body":"least we can, we can walk out of these conversations without"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2156.784,"endTime":2161.244,"body":"having alienated each other and h- maybe set a stage"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2161.244,"endTime":2164.963,"body":"for some further discussion about many of these issues."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2164.963,"endTime":2166.603,"body":"That's exactly what we hope for."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2166.603,"endTime":2169.463,"body":"Well, this, I... This has been super helpful. I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2169.463,"endTime":2172.324,"body":"so grateful to you, to you and the rest of the team for the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2172.324,"endTime":2175.704,"body":"work you've done on this, and I think just getting people to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2175.704,"endTime":2176.603,"body":"identify"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2177.184,"endTime":2180.884,"body":"and to come to grips with what their emotions are around many"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2180.884,"endTime":2185.143,"body":"of these issues, as that's... If that's all that happens, then I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2185.143,"endTime":2186.503,"body":"think we would take the win"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2187.123,"endTime":2188.764,"body":"on that and call it a good day."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2188.764,"endTime":2189.253,"body":"Definitely."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2189.923,"endTime":2192.063,"body":"So, Tim, thanks so much for being with us and for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2192.063,"endTime":2194.264,"body":"your really good work on this."},{"speaker":"Tim Pickavance","startTime":2194.264,"endTime":2196.224,"body":"Thanks, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2196.224,"endTime":2197.903,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2197.903,"endTime":2200.684,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture. It's brought"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2200.684,"endTime":2203.603,"body":"to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2203.603,"endTime":2206.563,"body":"offering programs residentially in Southern California and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2206.563,"endTime":2209.284,"body":"online, including master's degrees in Christian"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2209.284,"endTime":2213.643,"body":"apologetics, spiritual formation, philosophy, theology,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2213.643,"endTime":2216.523,"body":"Old and New Testament, marriage and family therapy, pastoral"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2216.523,"endTime":2220.523,"body":"ministry, and there's probably one or two that I'm missing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2220.523,"endTime":2223.543,"body":"[upbeat music] visit biola.edu/talbot in order to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2223.543,"endTime":2227.864,"body":"learn more. If you want to submit comments, ask questions,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2227.864,"endTime":2230.804,"body":"make suggestions on issues you'd like us to cover or guests you'd"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2230.804,"endTime":2233.083,"body":"like us to consider, please email us at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2233.083,"endTime":2236.224,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2236.224,"endTime":2240.103,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. In the meantime, thanks for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2240.103,"endTime":2250.202,"body":"listening, and think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}