{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.3,"endTime":3.919,"body":"[upbeat music] Has traditional faith become"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3.919,"endTime":8.24,"body":"obsolete in America? And if so, why? Until now, there's not been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":8.24,"endTime":12.189,"body":"a thorough sociological analysis of the various factors"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":12.189,"endTime":16.46,"body":"contributing to the demise of religion in America since the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":16.46,"endTime":21.17,"body":"1990s. Our guest today, Dr. Christian Smith, a sociologist,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":21.17,"endTime":24.8,"body":"has written an important new book that deserves a lot of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":24.8,"endTime":29.16,"body":"attention, in which he does just that. I'm Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":29.16,"endTime":30.679,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":30.679,"endTime":32.38,"body":"This is the Think Biblically podcast,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":32.38,"endTime":36.32,"body":"brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":36.32,"endTime":38.719,"body":"Dr. Smith, thanks for coming on."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":38.719,"endTime":40.399,"body":"Thank you for having me."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.399,"endTime":43.06,"body":"Really appreciate your book titled, Why"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":43.06,"endTime":46.64,"body":"Religion Went Obsolete. For starters, maybe just tell us,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":46.64,"endTime":49.619,"body":"what's your interest in the question of religious decline in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":49.619,"endTime":50.56,"body":"America?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":50.56,"endTime":53.64,"body":"Yeah. So I'm a sociologist, and,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":54.219,"endTime":56.979,"body":"American religion is really interesting. And,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":57.539,"endTime":61.02,"body":"for the longest time, the story was that religion has declined"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":61.02,"endTime":63.74,"body":"in Europe, secularization has happened elsewhere, but not in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":63.74,"endTime":67.06,"body":"the US. In recent decades, however, we've seen a lot of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":67.06,"endTime":70.459,"body":"indicators of religious decline, and so-- and it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":70.459,"endTime":73.76,"body":"significant. It stands out, so it's obviously something that"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":73.76,"endTime":76.64,"body":"would be interesting to a sociologist. And of course,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":76.64,"endTime":79.76,"body":"people of faith, communities of faith, would be very interested"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":79.76,"endTime":82.48,"body":"in this topic. So, yeah, there's a lot of different kind of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":82.48,"endTime":86.42,"body":"audiences that care about this. I don't think we'd understood it"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":86.42,"endTime":89.67,"body":"well enough until now, so I would-- really wanted to,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":90.54,"endTime":92.2,"body":"try to explain it better."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":92.2,"endTime":95.62,"body":"Yeah, you use a different term than most people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":95.62,"endTime":98.879,"body":"use to describe religious decline. You use the term"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":98.879,"endTime":101.12,"body":"traditional religion becoming obsolete"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":101.879,"endTime":105.239,"body":"in America. Tell us a little bit about what you mean precisely by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":105.239,"endTime":108.64,"body":"that term, religion becoming obsolete."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":108.64,"endTime":109.319,"body":"Yeah, so,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":110.18,"endTime":113.659,"body":"I mean, what the normal usage is, that obsolete happen--"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":113.659,"endTime":116.519,"body":"obsolescence happens when most people feel something is no"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":116.519,"endTime":117.98,"body":"longer useful or needed"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":118.56,"endTime":121.68,"body":"because something else has superseded it in function or"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":121.68,"endTime":126.439,"body":"efficiency or value or interest. And, the normal word, as you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":126.439,"endTime":130.02,"body":"said, we normally use is, decline, and that usually refers"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":130.02,"endTime":133.68,"body":"to organizational decline or decline in the population's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":133.68,"endTime":137.3,"body":"beliefs or practices. I'm trying in this book to focus more on"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":137.3,"endTime":141.52,"body":"cultural, the cultural feel of how traditional religion,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":141.52,"endTime":145.62,"body":"especially among post-boomers, fits in to the larger culture"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":145.62,"endTime":149.46,"body":"and in people's lives. And the word obsolescence, I think, kind"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":149.46,"endTime":153.5,"body":"of conveys that sense that religion is still around, there"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":153.5,"endTime":157.099,"body":"are still people that practice it, fewer than in the past, but"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":157.099,"endTime":160.919,"body":"it just has a feel of having been superseded or not so"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":160.919,"endTime":165.24,"body":"relevant to increasing number of people's lives. To be clear"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":165.24,"endTime":169.18,"body":"about that, to say that relig- traditional religion has"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":169.18,"endTime":172.8,"body":"become obsolete is not to say that it's useless or that it's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":172.8,"endTime":173.199,"body":"failed"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":173.939,"endTime":177.939,"body":"or that it's, or that it's worse than what has replaced it."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":178.68,"endTime":179.139,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":179.68,"endTime":182.259,"body":"again, there's some things that have gone obsolete that actually"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":182.259,"endTime":185.96,"body":"are better than what's replaced it, like vinyl records. But for"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":185.96,"endTime":187.08,"body":"various reasons,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":189.039,"endTime":192.5,"body":"I'm claiming among post-boomers, there's a certain obsolescence,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":192.5,"endTime":195.139,"body":"a cer- a certain kind of old-fashioned, doesn't really"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":195.139,"endTime":198.4,"body":"connect, doesn't really match anymore with where people are in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":198.4,"endTime":199.8,"body":"their lives."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":199.8,"endTime":201.379,"body":"Well, we could have a debate about whether or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":201.379,"endTime":203.71,"body":"not music is better since vinyl records-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":203.71,"endTime":203.71,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":203.71,"endTime":206.03,"body":"... But I'll let that one go. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":206.03,"endTime":207.06,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":207.06,"endTime":208.879,"body":"Kidding aside, my favorite example that you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":208.879,"endTime":210.919,"body":"used in the book, and I mentioned this when we talked"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":210.919,"endTime":214.039,"body":"about this before, is the idea of the Western. Like, it's still"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":214.039,"endTime":217.08,"body":"interesting, we look back in the past, but it's not really"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":217.08,"endTime":221.689,"body":"relevant to our culture today, and it feels like a time passed."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":221.689,"endTime":226.3,"body":"That's how the data shows that religion is viewed increasingly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":226.3,"endTime":229.939,"body":"among post-boomers. Now, maybe you could clarify for us,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":230.479,"endTime":235.479,"body":"how do you gauge religious decline, and is it a mixed bag,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":235.479,"endTime":239.12,"body":"or does all the data kind of point towards religion becoming"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":239.12,"endTime":239.78,"body":"obsolete?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":241.039,"endTime":242.8,"body":"Yeah, so sociologists obviously don't"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":242.8,"endTime":246.52,"body":"know what's going on in people's hearts and spiritual lives,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":246.52,"endTime":249.699,"body":"but we have a lot of different kind of measures. And where I"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":249.699,"endTime":253.419,"body":"start in the book is the standard measures of things like"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":253.419,"endTime":257.37,"body":"American reports on surveys of whether they consider themselves"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":257.37,"endTime":261.439,"body":"strongly religious or strongly committed to their religion, and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":261.439,"endTime":264.6,"body":"their confidence in their belief in God."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":265.259,"endTime":269.56,"body":"I also have measures of confidence in or trust in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":269.56,"endTime":273.04,"body":"organizational religion and in religious institutions. There's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":273.04,"endTime":277.42,"body":"a separate measure of trust in clergy, confidence in clergy"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":277.42,"endTime":281.079,"body":"ethics and moral standards. I have measures of church"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":281.079,"endTime":285.379,"body":"closings, which have been growing, net of, new church"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":285.379,"endTime":286.579,"body":"openings."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":287.12,"endTime":291.319,"body":"Things like the average age of church attendance or religious"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":291.319,"endTime":294.779,"body":"service attendance has been increasing, which shows, you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":294.779,"endTime":298.68,"body":"know, it-- older people are not being replaced by younger people"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":298.68,"endTime":304.129,"body":"who were flowing in. So there's a whole series of, standard,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":304.129,"endTime":307.86,"body":"and different measures that we can use that all point..."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":307.86,"endTime":310.639,"body":"The-- about the only measure that hasn't declined is belief"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":310.639,"endTime":313.579,"body":"in an afterlife. But again, Americans have very different"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":313.579,"endTime":316.819,"body":"views of what an afterlife might be. But in general, lots of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":316.819,"endTime":320.22,"body":"measures show, organiz- traditional religion has been in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":320.22,"endTime":321.009,"body":"decline."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":321.54,"endTime":324.139,"body":"So how much of this demise, Christian, do you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":324.139,"endTime":325.779,"body":"think can be contributed to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":326.339,"endTime":329.98,"body":"what we would call sort of anti-religious forces like"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":331.04,"endTime":332.8,"body":"Dawkins and the New Atheists,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":333.92,"endTime":339.699,"body":"universities, you know, wokeism, things like that? Or is most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":339.699,"endTime":339.879,"body":"of it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":340.8,"endTime":344.24,"body":"some of these cultural forces that are deeper than that?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":345.459,"endTime":347.699,"body":"Yeah, so the story of my book is that there's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":347.699,"endTime":349.339,"body":"some of that going on."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":349.939,"endTime":352.8,"body":"It's, it's common-- there's a certain narrative in certain"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":352.8,"endTime":355.5,"body":"religious traditions that, you know, the world is out to get"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":355.5,"endTime":359.68,"body":"us, and anti-religious people, secularists, secular humanists,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":360.399,"endTime":363.3,"body":"atheists, are trying to kill religion. Um-... There's a bit"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":363.3,"endTime":366.098,"body":"of that going on, but the story in my book is that most of the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":366.098,"endTime":369.959,"body":"powerful forces at work over a long period of time that have"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":369.959,"endTime":371.279,"body":"undermined religious strength"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":371.92,"endTime":375.218,"body":"are not about religion. They're long-term trends. They're"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":375.218,"endTime":378.899,"body":"unintended. They have unintended consequences that have harmed"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":379.418,"endTime":381.11,"body":"traditional religion."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":382.418,"endTime":386.819,"body":"And new atheists, others certainly don't help, but that's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":386.819,"endTime":390.5,"body":"not the main force causing religion's obsolescence."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":390.5,"endTime":393.62,"body":"Furthermore, religion, traditional religion itself has"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":393.62,"endTime":397.86,"body":"done plenty, as I write in a whole chapter in the book, to,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":397.86,"endTime":401.019,"body":"harm itself, to create its own destruction. I think religion"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":401.019,"endTime":404.019,"body":"has done more to harm itself than anti-religious forces have"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":404.019,"endTime":405.189,"body":"done to harm it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":406.3,"endTime":408.439,"body":"I agree with that. In fact, I think the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":408.439,"endTime":413.098,"body":"damage religion has done to itself has fed fuel to the fire"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":413.098,"endTime":416.8,"body":"of the criticism from anti-religious forces,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":416.8,"endTime":420.038,"body":"[chuckles] and had we not had many of the failures that you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":420.038,"endTime":423.839,"body":"talk about and scandals within the church, And of course, 9/11"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":423.839,"endTime":426.218,"body":"played a big role in the new atheists, but they wouldn't have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":426.218,"endTime":428.98,"body":"as much force and as much credibility. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":429.718,"endTime":431.819,"body":"I agree with you. Now, you interestingly point to a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":431.819,"endTime":435.6,"body":"specific year, which I thought was fascinating. And of course,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":435.6,"endTime":438.639,"body":"you can't attribute all the decline to one year, but there"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":438.639,"endTime":443.06,"body":"are pivotal times where we see things increase and change, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":443.06,"endTime":446.839,"body":"you point to the year 1991, which is when I was a freshman"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":447.379,"endTime":450.1,"body":"in high school. So tell us what was so pivotal about that year."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":451.12,"endTime":453.199,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I don't wanna overemphasize it,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":453.199,"endTime":453.579,"body":"but-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":453.579,"endTime":453.589,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":453.589,"endTime":456.019,"body":"... Looking back in history, we can see"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":456.019,"endTime":457.259,"body":"turning points, right?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":457.959,"endTime":462.298,"body":"And 1991 was a, I think, a turning point in all of this. Up"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":462.298,"endTime":465.298,"body":"until then, re- traditional religion looked like it was"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":465.298,"endTime":469.18,"body":"doing pretty well. It was pretty strong. In 1991, that was, for"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":469.18,"endTime":472.439,"body":"example, the year when the number of Americans who said"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":472.439,"endTime":474.158,"body":"they were non-religious on surveys,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":474.68,"endTime":478.279,"body":"the nones, the religious nones, started to increase. Before"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":478.279,"endTime":482.5,"body":"then, it was very stable at around 60 or 70%. Starting in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":482.5,"endTime":485.36,"body":"1991, the number of Americans who said, \"I'm not religious,\""},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":485.36,"endTime":488.459,"body":"started to increase, and it's been growing and growing, ever"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":488.459,"endTime":491.639,"body":"since, until possibly until recently. A number of other"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":491.639,"endTime":494.339,"body":"things happened. The end of the Cold War, which I argue in the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":494.339,"endTime":497.519,"body":"book, was significant in changing Americans' sort of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":497.519,"endTime":500.678,"body":"self-understanding and role in the world in a way that made"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":500.678,"endTime":501.678,"body":"religion less,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":503.139,"endTime":506.22,"body":"central to our national identity."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":507.019,"endTime":508.48,"body":"And, I have a whole list"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":509.0,"endTime":512.759,"body":"in the book of things that happened in 1991, from cultural"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":512.759,"endTime":516.7,"body":"changes in popular culture, such as I, you know, I point out"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":516.7,"endTime":517.538,"body":"Nirvana's,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":518.139,"endTime":522.12,"body":"hitting the world with, Smells Like Teen Spirit. A whole"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":522.12,"endTime":525.578,"body":"lot of other things around sexuality, culture wars"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":525.578,"endTime":529.5,"body":"transpired in 1991 that I think opened up a new era for"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":529.5,"endTime":533.279,"body":"millennials to start to exert more influence on culture and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":533.279,"endTime":536.779,"body":"for traditional religion to hit harder and harder and harder"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":536.779,"endTime":537.578,"body":"times."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":539.12,"endTime":541.578,"body":"Now, Christian, one of the things I so appreciated"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":541.578,"endTime":545.5,"body":"about the book is your emphasis on the, what you call the deep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":545.5,"endTime":551.799,"body":"culture trends, these, you know, these broad cultural trends"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":551.799,"endTime":552.85,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":553.839,"endTime":557.2,"body":"may not have directly impacted,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":558.139,"endTime":561.578,"body":"the decline of religion, but made, I guess"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":562.159,"endTime":564.578,"body":"if I'm, if I'm reading you correctly, made the sort of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":564.578,"endTime":565.839,"body":"the spirit of the age"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":566.639,"endTime":571.328,"body":"much more, I wouldn't say, not overtly hostile, but much-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":571.328,"endTime":574.078,"body":"made religion have a much more uncomfortable fit with the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":574.078,"endTime":575.339,"body":"spirit of the age than it did"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":576.0,"endTime":577.299,"body":"prior to that. Is that a fair"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":578.419,"endTime":579.089,"body":"rendering of that?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":579.089,"endTime":580.779,"body":"Yeah, that's true. I talk in the book about"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":580.779,"endTime":583.818,"body":"the millennial zeitgeist that developed in the '90s and early"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":583.818,"endTime":587.799,"body":"2000s, which, again, creates an atmosphere. It's a lot harder to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":587.799,"endTime":591.078,"body":"measure sociologically, you know, a spirit of an age or a n-"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":591.078,"endTime":593.36,"body":"or something in the air or the atmosphere, but I think there"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":593.36,"endTime":593.72,"body":"was really"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":594.799,"endTime":599.399,"body":"something real in cultural transformations that made the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":599.399,"endTime":603.028,"body":"world in which millennials especially grew up in, and older"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":603.028,"endTime":607.179,"body":"and, younger Gen Xers, just feel different, that traditional"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":607.179,"endTime":610.799,"body":"religion didn't fit. And another piece of this is this idea of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":610.799,"endTime":614.659,"body":"deep culture. I think what really governs people's lives is"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":614.659,"endTime":618.86,"body":"not so much what they think about every day, but the deep,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":618.86,"endTime":622.399,"body":"deeply embedded, taken for granted assumptions,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":622.399,"endTime":626.919,"body":"presuppositions, outlooks on life that are just- they seem"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":626.919,"endTime":629.879,"body":"they're taken for granted, they just seem natural, and those"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":629.879,"endTime":632.48,"body":"have been... There, there have been shifts in those, so it's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":632.48,"endTime":634.679,"body":"almost like plate tectonics in,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":635.259,"endTime":640.059,"body":"in earth geology. It- the tensions can build up, and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":640.059,"endTime":643.339,"body":"the deep culture can transform over time, and then eventually"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":643.339,"endTime":645.839,"body":"you hit a point where you have earthquakes or volcanoes or"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":645.839,"endTime":647.168,"body":"whatever. And,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":647.96,"endTime":650.919,"body":"yeah, and then once the deep cultural assumptions and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":650.919,"endTime":655.519,"body":"presuppositions have changed or shifted, it's really hard, if"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":655.519,"endTime":658.7,"body":"you don't fit those, to, make sense to people."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":659.62,"endTime":661.72,"body":"Well, let me highlight a co- a couple of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":661.72,"endTime":664.679,"body":"those things that you, that you point out in the book."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":665.62,"endTime":669.22,"body":"G- what grand cultural trends? Well, you talk about the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":669.22,"endTime":673.339,"body":"changing state of the family, for one, as w- as one of those,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":673.339,"endTime":677.2,"body":"one of those things that was, you know, forms-- used to form"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":677.2,"endTime":679.578,"body":"part of the, part of the air that we breathe."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":680.539,"endTime":683.339,"body":"You know, I mean, when I, when I, when I came of age, it was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":683.339,"endTime":686.5,"body":"just assumed that, you know, you would get married and have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":686.5,"endTime":690.779,"body":"children and settle down and, have a job and provide, and, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":690.779,"endTime":693.779,"body":"know, all those things. And but you point out that that, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":693.779,"endTime":697.519,"body":"know, that understanding of the f- of marriage and the family"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":697.519,"endTime":702.099,"body":"has changed dramatically. Spell that out a little bit further."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":702.099,"endTime":704.318,"body":"Yeah, so it's not... This is, this is an"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":704.318,"endTime":707.72,"body":"example of long-term transformations that are not"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":707.72,"endTime":711.5,"body":"directly about religion in most cases, but have consequences for"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":711.5,"endTime":712.49,"body":"traditional religion."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":713.24,"endTime":717.578,"body":"... I mean, it's no news that, you know, over the decades,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":717.578,"endTime":721.519,"body":"there have been changes in people's assumptions about, how"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":721.519,"endTime":724.659,"body":"they wanna live their lives in relationships, and so not just"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":724.659,"endTime":729.5,"body":"the increase in divorce, but a l- a 10-year delay in first"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":729.5,"endTime":734.539,"body":"marriage over a period of time, voluntary childlessness or"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":734.539,"endTime":735.578,"body":"long-delayed,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":736.139,"endTime":737.318,"body":"bearing a first child"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":737.899,"endTime":741.458,"body":"and raising a family, increase in cohabitation, increase in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":741.458,"endTime":745.519,"body":"just living with roommates. That changes the kind of the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":745.519,"endTime":749.539,"body":"demographic of the audience of people. Traditionally,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":749.539,"endTime":752.039,"body":"traditional religious organizations would be most"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":752.039,"endTime":753.349,"body":"appealing to,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":754.339,"endTime":754.779,"body":"married"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":755.639,"endTime":759.5,"body":"couples, heterosexual married couples with children, and that,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":759.5,"endTime":762.5,"body":"pool of people has been shrinking over a long period of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":762.5,"endTime":765.879,"body":"time. And so before we get to any of the other many"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":765.879,"endTime":769.98,"body":"factors, simply the demographics of a market, so to speak, for"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":769.98,"endTime":773.039,"body":"traditional religion, has been profoundly transformed. And"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":773.039,"endTime":776.169,"body":"along with that goes some- there goes other deep cultural"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":776.169,"endTime":778.86,"body":"assumptions about- What is the purpose of life? What makes"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":778.86,"endTime":782.259,"body":"somebody happy? What is the role of sexuality in life? What does"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":782.259,"endTime":784.779,"body":"it mean to be committed? What does it mean to settle down, et"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":784.779,"endTime":787.818,"body":"cetera? All of those other cultural ramifications of the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":787.818,"endTime":791.438,"body":"transformation of marriage and family have big consequences in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":791.438,"endTime":795.099,"body":"a deep cultural way for, traditional religion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":795.099,"endTime":796.818,"body":"It's really helpful that you draw out some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":796.818,"endTime":797.578,"body":"of these,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":798.279,"endTime":802.099,"body":"larger sociological factors that, in many ways, have decades"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":802.099,"endTime":806.279,"body":"and centuries of change taking place that aren't about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":806.279,"endTime":811.259,"body":"religion, but affect religion. And you list a bunch of those,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":811.259,"endTime":813.74,"body":"at least the practice of religion, a bunch of those in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":813.74,"endTime":817.919,"body":"your book. But if I could take a step back, it might be helpful."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":817.919,"endTime":821.36,"body":"Help us understand how millennials tend to view"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":821.36,"endTime":825.779,"body":"religion in America. There's a certain lens that the data shows"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":825.779,"endTime":830.458,"body":"that they bring to religious questions, and is it the same as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":830.458,"endTime":830.639,"body":"what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":831.318,"endTime":834.12,"body":"you wrote in Soul Searching about two decades ago, kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":834.12,"endTime":836.25,"body":"this moralistic, therapeutic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":836.799,"endTime":838.919,"body":"deism?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":838.919,"endTime":840.899,"body":"Yeah, there's a... I think there's a mismatch"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":840.899,"endTime":842.029,"body":"between what,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":842.799,"endTime":846.74,"body":"most Americans think religion is about and what they would value"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":846.74,"endTime":850.078,"body":"religion for, and what the religious traditions themselves"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":850.078,"endTime":853.818,"body":"believe they have to offer, and what the most committed and,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":853.818,"endTime":857.48,"body":"and educated religious Americans understand themselves"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":857.48,"endTime":861.799,"body":"to be. For, for most Americans, religion is a nice, a sort"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":861.799,"endTime":865.438,"body":"of optional identity accessory you might have in your life."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":865.438,"endTime":867.919,"body":"It's not the center of your life. It's not the organizing"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":867.919,"endTime":871.259,"body":"principle of your life. It's- it has the same status as, you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":871.259,"endTime":873.938,"body":"know, whether you're in the tennis club or the swim club or"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":873.938,"endTime":877.87,"body":"the, or the... And, and so therefore, religion is viewed as"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":878.419,"endTime":882.98,"body":"it's good if it provides this worldly, very imminent,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":884.129,"endTime":888.159,"body":"payoff, like making people behave well, making people make"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":888.159,"endTime":891.438,"body":"good- helping people make good choices, giving people"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":891.438,"endTime":895.039,"body":"community, giving people psychological well-being, help"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":895.039,"endTime":899.259,"body":"providing sort of ethical standards or models for society,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":899.779,"endTime":903.198,"body":"and an older one that's now obsolete, is helping to hold"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":903.198,"endTime":907.698,"body":"American society together. So the emphasis is not on"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":908.299,"endTime":913.379,"body":"transcendence, eternity, ultimate truth, capital T,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":914.059,"endTime":917.0,"body":"you know, true knowledge about the way the world is, and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":917.0,"endTime":920.599,"body":"something that should shape our lives. It's more religion has..."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":920.599,"endTime":923.078,"body":"When and however it happened, religion has become something"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":923.078,"endTime":927.159,"body":"that we use to make our lives better. And so it's very easy"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":927.159,"endTime":928.919,"body":"then for people, to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":929.48,"endTime":933.22,"body":"v- our lives better in this world now. It's very easy"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":933.22,"endTime":935.659,"body":"for people then to think, \"Well, if religion is not gonna do"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":935.659,"endTime":937.96,"body":"that, I don't need that. Like, what's the point?\" And if"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":937.96,"endTime":941.279,"body":"religion violates... If, if there are bad religious people"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":941.279,"endTime":945.019,"body":"or if religion is abusive toward people, then it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":945.019,"endTime":949.48,"body":"deserve anybody's, sort of commitment. So yeah, so again,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":949.48,"endTime":951.759,"body":"this is an example of deep culture at work."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":952.339,"endTime":955.179,"body":"There have been, I think, long-term American,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":955.179,"endTime":957.74,"body":"transformations in American culture about an understanding"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":957.74,"endTime":961.62,"body":"of what religion even is fundamentally, that then when"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":961.62,"endTime":965.24,"body":"the world around religion changes, helps to make religion"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":965.24,"endTime":968.899,"body":"feel mismatched or polluted or obsolete."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":969.818,"endTime":971.899,"body":"I think one of the other tectonic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":972.48,"endTime":976.299,"body":"plate movements that you describe is a more recent one,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":976.299,"endTime":978.46,"body":"which is the digital revolution."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":978.46,"endTime":979.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":979.059,"endTime":982.379,"body":"Tell us a little bit about how that has,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":982.379,"endTime":983.72,"body":"has impacted"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":984.318,"endTime":987.539,"body":"religion. It, it may not have caused decline, but it certainly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":987.539,"endTime":991.74,"body":"has, it certainly has had effects on that. How, how so?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":991.74,"endTime":993.339,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think everyone knows the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":993.339,"endTime":996.139,"body":"digital revolution, the invention of the internet,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":996.139,"endTime":999.339,"body":"social media, et cetera, has had a"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1000.188,"endTime":1003.46,"body":"huge, you know, colossal implications for the way we"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1003.46,"endTime":1006.578,"body":"live, our technologies, our culture."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1007.2,"endTime":1010.419,"body":"I think that... I also think, going back to the 2000s, you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1010.419,"endTime":1012.7,"body":"know, when I did this research with teenagers, there was"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1012.7,"endTime":1013.259,"body":"a lot of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1014.0,"endTime":1018.339,"body":"sense, like an intuition, that this is not really great for,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1018.339,"endTime":1022.619,"body":"passing on faith to teenagers. But I-- in this book, I myself"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1022.619,"endTime":1026.159,"body":"tried to really drill down to causal mechanisms. What is it"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1026.159,"endTime":1029.679,"body":"about the internet? What is it about Google? What is it about"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1029.679,"endTime":1030.47,"body":"social media"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1031.24,"endTime":1034.019,"body":"that undermines? Not intentionally. Again, I think"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1034.019,"endTime":1037.338,"body":"nobody who invented the Internet was trying to get rid of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1037.338,"endTime":1041.078,"body":"traditional religion, but lo and behold, the new technologies"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1041.078,"endTime":1046.94,"body":"have, in fact, consequences in people's sense of authority, in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1046.94,"endTime":1050.299,"body":"people's sense of epistemology, how can we know what we know? In"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1050.299,"endTime":1053.46,"body":"people's time commitments, people's time uses, people's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1053.46,"endTime":1055.96,"body":"sense of, quote-unquote, \"community,\" and quote-unquote,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1055.96,"endTime":1057.809,"body":"\"friends,\" people's a,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1058.46,"endTime":1062.138,"body":"attention spans. Like, we just know empirically that people"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1062.138,"endTime":1065.759,"body":"that spend more time on the internet have shorter attention"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1065.759,"endTime":1069.779,"body":"spans. And, you know, if you wanna understand scripture, if"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1069.779,"endTime":1072.679,"body":"you wanna understand tradition, if you under-- wanna understand"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1072.679,"endTime":1076.559,"body":"theology and doctrine, that takes concentration. If you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1076.559,"endTime":1079.539,"body":"wanna sit through a sermon that has some substance to it, that,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1079.539,"endTime":1083.2,"body":"that takes attention and concentration and discipline, so"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1083.2,"endTime":1086.779,"body":"to speak. If you wanna follow a Christian calendar across the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1086.779,"endTime":1090.48,"body":"year, that takes attention and discipline. So, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1090.48,"endTime":1093.259,"body":"just one of the many ways. I think in the book, I spell out"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1093.259,"endTime":1097.22,"body":"10 different mechanisms by which the in-- the digital revolution"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1097.22,"endTime":1100.099,"body":"that sort of explodes in the '90s and the 2000s"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1100.74,"endTime":1105.0,"body":"really-... Had these unintended consequence of making it much"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1105.0,"endTime":1109.9,"body":"harder for post-boomers to think and to be and to practice and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1109.9,"endTime":1111.269,"body":"commit to religion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1112.359,"endTime":1115.099,"body":"Those 10 points, some of them are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1115.099,"endTime":1118.319,"body":"obvious in the sense of, like, time that people are spending"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1118.319,"endTime":1122.039,"body":"on, or attention span. We've talked about that. But you also"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1122.039,"endTime":1124.539,"body":"draw out really important points, like a shift in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1124.539,"endTime":1126.539,"body":"authority. Now people-"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1126.539,"endTime":1126.72,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1126.72,"endTime":1129.579,"body":"... Have access to endless information, to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1129.579,"endTime":1133.7,"body":"listen to other sermons, to fact-check a sermon, and it kind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1133.7,"endTime":1137.42,"body":"of moves the authority, whether people realize it or not, from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1137.42,"endTime":1142.64,"body":"the pastor, from the Bible, internally to oneself."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1142.64,"endTime":1145.859,"body":"Technology kind of plays a role in that, so I appreciate that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1145.859,"endTime":1149.819,"body":"you're drawing out some of these connections for us. You also"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1149.819,"endTime":1154.64,"body":"talk about the significance of religious scandals in the demise"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1154.64,"endTime":1157.64,"body":"of religion, and you had a page where you just listed scandal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1157.64,"endTime":1161.88,"body":"after scandal. Some of them I was aware of, going back to the,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1161.88,"endTime":1165.539,"body":"I think the Swaggart and the Jim Bakker scandals. Some of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1165.539,"endTime":1169.359,"body":"these I was not aware of, but how big do you think those have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1169.359,"endTime":1172.579,"body":"played in the obsolescence of religion?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1173.519,"endTime":1175.839,"body":"I think, as I said earlier, I think religion"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1175.839,"endTime":1179.14,"body":"has done a lot to damage itself. It's not all-- It's clearly not"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1179.14,"endTime":1181.14,"body":"all pastors and not all religious people-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1181.14,"endTime":1181.43,"body":"Of course"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1181.43,"endTime":1183.7,"body":"... But the way, in a, in a digital age, in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1183.7,"endTime":1186.279,"body":"the world where, if things go viral, you know, in an"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1186.279,"endTime":1190.42,"body":"afternoon, all it takes is a small minority of bad actors to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1190.42,"endTime":1190.71,"body":"really"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1191.22,"endTime":1195.14,"body":"give a black eye to an organization or a movement. So I"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1195.14,"endTime":1199.16,"body":"think that they played a really big role. As you said earlier,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1199.16,"endTime":1202.599,"body":"religious scandals gave religion's enemies or opponents"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1202.599,"endTime":1207.019,"body":"or rivals, something to feed on. It gave them opportunity. It"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1207.019,"endTime":1209.619,"body":"created doubt in the minds of people who otherwise would've"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1209.619,"endTime":1213.72,"body":"been pretty friendly to religion. Again, back to what we"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1213.72,"endTime":1217.359,"body":"said earlier about deep culture, if Americans think the main job"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1217.359,"endTime":1220.94,"body":"of religion is to help people be moral, this moralistic approach"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1220.94,"endTime":1226.039,"body":"to faith, which goes back to moralistic therapeutic deism. If"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1226.039,"endTime":1228.68,"body":"Americans think the main job of religion is to be moral, and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1228.68,"endTime":1231.099,"body":"then they hear every month there's a new scandal in the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1231.099,"endTime":1235.0,"body":"news about some religious leader in any given tradition, this is"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1235.0,"endTime":1237.98,"body":"not just evangelicals, and it's not just Catholicism, although"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1237.98,"endTime":1242.359,"body":"they've had huge problems. It's in ch- American Judaism,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1242.359,"endTime":1245.92,"body":"Mormonism, and, Black Protestantism. When Americans"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1245.92,"endTime":1246.279,"body":"hear"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1247.059,"endTime":1250.579,"body":"news story after news story, it seems relentless, of people"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1250.579,"endTime":1253.2,"body":"being caught, you know, doing"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1253.859,"endTime":1258.779,"body":"bad things, that c- really corrodes, their confidence, and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1258.779,"endTime":1261.66,"body":"this shows up in the data. You know, it shows up in surveys"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1261.66,"endTime":1262.24,"body":"over time,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1262.779,"endTime":1265.799,"body":"their confidence that religion is doing its job, it's doing"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1265.799,"endTime":1267.859,"body":"what it should be doing. So"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1268.579,"endTime":1272.839,"body":"that... These scandals were huge, in conjunction with other,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1272.839,"endTime":1276.5,"body":"other problems within religion that really turned a lot of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1276.5,"endTime":1280.14,"body":"people off. We don't know if that was the main cause why"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1280.14,"endTime":1283.48,"body":"people a bit, let's say, stopped going to church, but even if it"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1283.48,"endTime":1287.079,"body":"isn't the main cause, it gives people a cultural rationale"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1287.079,"endTime":1291.079,"body":"that's sensible. It gives people, a justification. Maybe"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1291.079,"endTime":1293.019,"body":"they, maybe they just don't want-- don't feel like getting"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1293.019,"endTime":1296.14,"body":"dressed up and meeting other people. But if some, if a"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1296.14,"endTime":1298.509,"body":"sociologist asked them or a friend asked them-"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1299.039,"endTime":1302.079,"body":"\"Why aren't you going to church anymore?\" It's very-- It makes"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1302.079,"endTime":1305.299,"body":"total sense to everyone. Well, it's... Or most people, it makes"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1305.299,"endTime":1308.44,"body":"total sense. \"It's a bunch of hypocrisy,\" or, \"You can't trust"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1308.44,"endTime":1310.94,"body":"these people,\" or, \"The church is totally corrupt,\" or however"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1310.94,"endTime":1311.539,"body":"you wanna put it."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1312.2,"endTime":1313.9,"body":"That's powerful,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1314.519,"endTime":1316.66,"body":"ammunition in our culture."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1317.539,"endTime":1320.319,"body":"Christian, one thing that struck me as I, as I read"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1320.319,"endTime":1321.0,"body":"throughout the book"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1321.9,"endTime":1324.559,"body":"is, you know, particularly in, particularly as you got to the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1324.559,"endTime":1328.299,"body":"the last chapter, where you des- you describe in real, in real"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1328.299,"endTime":1331.319,"body":"detail all these factors that contribute to the spirit of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1331.319,"endTime":1331.7,"body":"age,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1332.22,"endTime":1333.46,"body":"what you call the zeitgeist"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1334.2,"endTime":1338.079,"body":"of the culture today in the US. And I thought about back to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1338.079,"endTime":1342.599,"body":"the first century. The, the zeitgeist of the ancient, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1342.599,"endTime":1346.079,"body":"Greco-Roman world in the first century could not have been more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1346.079,"endTime":1349.779,"body":"opposed to the Christian message, and yet the early"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1349.779,"endTime":1353.059,"body":"church flourished in the midst of a,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1354.339,"endTime":1357.799,"body":"you know, a spirit of the age that was actually overtly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1357.799,"endTime":1362.0,"body":"hostile to it, and not just consider- I mean, considered it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1362.0,"endTime":1366.119,"body":"dangerous and damaging, not just, irrelevant. So the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1366.119,"endTime":1370.119,"body":"question is, in light of that, do you see, do you see a way"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1370.119,"endTime":1372.66,"body":"where religion can, particularly,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1373.359,"endTime":1376.119,"body":"you know, traditional Christianity, can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1376.119,"endTime":1376.72,"body":"flourish"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1377.579,"endTime":1379.019,"body":"in spite of these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1379.539,"endTime":1384.24,"body":"deep, broad cultural trends that you're describing?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1384.24,"endTime":1386.22,"body":"Yeah, that thinking through the parallels"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1386.22,"endTime":1388.96,"body":"with the, with the early church and the Roman Empire is really"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1388.96,"endTime":1391.72,"body":"fascinating, and it's complex. It's hard to sort of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1392.48,"endTime":1398.259,"body":"sort out in a short period of time. But I'm not, I'm not, a"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1398.259,"endTime":1401.22,"body":"cheerleader of religion's demise by any means."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1402.079,"endTime":1405.779,"body":"As a sociologist, I'm trying to explain and understand it. Of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1405.779,"endTime":1409.94,"body":"course, we would say, yeah, in any given context, nothing is"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1409.94,"endTime":1413.5,"body":"hopeless, and it-- for people who are Christians to be able to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1413.5,"endTime":1417.71,"body":"say, \"Yeah,\" that, you know, in every given context, there are"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1417.71,"endTime":1421.579,"body":"opportunities, there are ways to move forward. I think, one of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1421.579,"endTime":1424.319,"body":"the reasons I wrote this book is to help people understand the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1424.319,"endTime":1428.019,"body":"larger picture, the bigger context of what in the world is"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1428.019,"endTime":1431.809,"body":"going on, so that people can step back and reflect on, you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1431.809,"endTime":1435.0,"body":"know, what are we doing well? What are we not doing well? What"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1435.0,"endTime":1438.099,"body":"is it that- what cultural forms do we have that are getting in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1438.099,"endTime":1442.22,"body":"the way of what we should be doing? And what things, what"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1442.22,"endTime":1444.619,"body":"things do we really s- need to stick with our guns, because"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1444.619,"endTime":1446.259,"body":"that's who we are,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1446.859,"endTime":1448.98,"body":"and rethink pretty profoundly"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1449.64,"endTime":1450.66,"body":"in light of a new"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1451.2,"endTime":1455.96,"body":"c- a cultural, social context, what would it look like to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1455.96,"endTime":1457.98,"body":"be a faithful practitioner"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1458.539,"endTime":1462.7,"body":"or follower of this religious faith? So yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1462.7,"endTime":1465.579,"body":"think the answer is yes. I can't spell it out here. I don't"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1465.579,"endTime":1468.2,"body":"really have that many answers, but in principle, I would"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1468.2,"endTime":1472.316,"body":"say-... Once the situation has been figured out, there should"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1472.316,"endTime":1475.836,"body":"be ways to sort through, okay, how to move forward in a way"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1475.836,"endTime":1479.056,"body":"that's faithful and intelligent, and maybe effective."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1479.695,"endTime":1480.796,"body":"Christian, I thought it was fascinating in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1480.796,"endTime":1484.195,"body":"your book how you talked about, like, the mainline church, for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1484.195,"endTime":1488.596,"body":"example, has faded in terms of people going there, and in part,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1488.596,"endTime":1492.996,"body":"that's a result of its success, that mainlines would maybe be in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1492.996,"endTime":1494.955,"body":"line with certain cultural trends,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1495.476,"endTime":1499.195,"body":"and one big example would be sexuality. And so because of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1499.195,"endTime":1502.415,"body":"their success, less [chuckles] and less people are like- Why do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1502.415,"endTime":1504.566,"body":"I need to go to church?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1504.566,"endTime":1504.635,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1504.635,"endTime":1508.056,"body":"On the flip side, with evangelicals, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1508.056,"endTime":1511.935,"body":"spirit of the age has been expressive individualism. It's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1511.935,"endTime":1513.655,"body":"about me and my feelings,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1514.195,"endTime":1519.536,"body":"and maybe evangelicals have benefited in one sense from this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1519.536,"endTime":1523.476,"body":"focus on me and Jesus spirituality, but there's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1523.476,"endTime":1526.115,"body":"negative sense to that, too. You described it's like- Well, then"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1526.115,"endTime":1528.596,"body":"why should I go to church? Why do I [chuckles] have to follow"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1528.596,"endTime":1532.875,"body":"these rules if it's all about me? So tell us a little bit"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1532.875,"endTime":1536.336,"body":"about what you describe as evangelical me and God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1536.336,"endTime":1538.996,"body":"spirituality, and why that's significant."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1538.996,"endTime":1541.195,"body":"Yeah, so American evangelicalism is"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1541.195,"endTime":1544.516,"body":"relatively individualistic. It's subjectivistic. It really"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1544.516,"endTime":1545.165,"body":"emphasizes-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1545.165,"endTime":1545.165,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1545.165,"endTime":1546.715,"body":"... Sort of how you feel inside, whether"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1546.715,"endTime":1548.516,"body":"you're authentically, you know, having"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1549.195,"endTime":1550.596,"body":"real devotion, or real"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1551.115,"endTime":1554.076,"body":"connection with God, or really feeling worship, or really"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1554.076,"endTime":1557.096,"body":"feeling called to something. And, so that's part of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1557.096,"endTime":1560.355,"body":"evangelical DNA or much of evangelicalism's DNA,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1560.955,"endTime":1561.215,"body":"and,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1561.736,"endTime":1564.576,"body":"in some ways, it really vibes with the culture. And I"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1564.576,"endTime":1569.195,"body":"think that helped evangelicalism to b- to become more appealing"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1569.195,"endTime":1573.046,"body":"in the post-war era, especially, let's say, in the late '60s,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1573.046,"endTime":1577.155,"body":"'70s, and '80s. But then these things can become double-edged"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1577.155,"endTime":1580.496,"body":"swords. So I talk in the, in the book, as you just mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1580.496,"endTime":1583.996,"body":"that evangelicals have this phrase, you know, \"You need a"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1583.996,"endTime":1588.016,"body":"personal relationship with God.\" And evangelicals have used that"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1588.016,"endTime":1592.615,"body":"phrase to great effect to make the point- Just 'cause"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1592.615,"endTime":1594.816,"body":"you, quote-unquote, \"believe in God,\" doesn't mean you're a"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1594.816,"endTime":1598.255,"body":"Christian or going to heaven. You know, you need a personal"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1598.255,"endTime":1600.736,"body":"relationship. This needs to be a personal commitment. It needs to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1600.736,"endTime":1604.855,"body":"be authentic. It needs to be heartfelt. Well, what I argue in"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1604.855,"endTime":1608.355,"body":"the book is that this discourse has spilled out of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1608.355,"endTime":1612.256,"body":"evangelicalism into the culture broadly, so that now when we go"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1612.256,"endTime":1614.076,"body":"interview post-boomers,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1614.855,"endTime":1618.115,"body":"very many will say, \"I don't need an institution. I have a"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1618.115,"endTime":1621.605,"body":"personal relationship with God. I don't need to follow the Bible"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1621.605,"endTime":1624.895,"body":"directly. You know, I have a personal relationship with God,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1624.895,"endTime":1628.846,"body":"and that God is the God that I believe in, I make up,\" kind of,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1628.846,"endTime":1632.756,"body":"\"or the God that resonates with me, or that fits my subjective"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1632.756,"endTime":1635.855,"body":"sensibilities, and who needs an organization? Who needs an"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1635.855,"endTime":1639.135,"body":"institution?\" The point is, evangelicals who originally"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1639.135,"endTime":1641.996,"body":"started this phrase, \"personal relationship with God,\" they"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1641.996,"endTime":1643.836,"body":"never meant it to justify-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1643.836,"endTime":1643.865,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1643.865,"endTime":1645.476,"body":"... I don't need to go to church, or I can"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1645.476,"endTime":1648.756,"body":"have whatever God I want to. But the culture-- but the, in the"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1648.756,"endTime":1653.276,"body":"two-edged sword sort of sense, or the unintended ironic sense,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1653.276,"endTime":1656.976,"body":"the culture can take over such religious discourse and use it"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1656.976,"endTime":1659.455,"body":"in a way that undermines the original intention."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1661.016,"endTime":1664.455,"body":"So, Christian, let me ask you to maybe put on your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1664.455,"endTime":1667.096,"body":"prophetic hat here for a moment."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1668.375,"endTime":1671.556,"body":"What do you think might happen to American culture"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1672.375,"endTime":1677.756,"body":"as religion declines, as you've described?"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1677.756,"endTime":1679.195,"body":"Yeah, so obviously, I'm much more"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1679.195,"endTime":1682.096,"body":"comfortable describing and explaining things that have"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1682.096,"endTime":1685.195,"body":"already happened in the past, and I hesitate to say about"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1685.195,"endTime":1688.756,"body":"the future. But based on the past, we can make some"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1688.756,"endTime":1693.076,"body":"conjectures at least. It's the... We know, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1693.076,"endTime":1695.486,"body":"secular scholars know this, that e- that,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1696.096,"endTime":1700.756,"body":"religion is, has been, in American history, a source of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1700.756,"endTime":1704.096,"body":"social cohesion, a source of people's psychological coping, a"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1704.096,"endTime":1707.496,"body":"source of what's called social capital, trusting relationships"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1707.496,"endTime":1712.076,"body":"among people, a source of social bonding and bridging, a source"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1712.076,"endTime":1715.155,"body":"of charity, a source of... There's a huge amount of"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1715.155,"endTime":1718.776,"body":"institutions, hospitals, orphanages, et cetera, et"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1718.776,"endTime":1721.536,"body":"cetera, that religion has generated, that have"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1722.096,"endTime":1725.476,"body":"w- you know, what some people call pro-social effects. Even"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1725.476,"endTime":1728.954,"body":"mental health is much better among religious people. You"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1728.954,"endTime":1732.215,"body":"know, we can argue about how and why that happens, but it appears"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1732.215,"endTime":1735.476,"body":"that religion has contributed a lot towards sort of the cohesion"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1735.476,"endTime":1738.855,"body":"and functionality of society, which is one reason why, you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1738.855,"endTime":1742.276,"body":"know, Americans expe- think that's what makes religion good."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1742.276,"endTime":1742.536,"body":"But,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1743.115,"endTime":1744.296,"body":"if that's the case,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1745.256,"endTime":1749.855,"body":"if religion sort of fades away, then unless something else comes"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1749.855,"endTime":1750.836,"body":"to replace it,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1751.556,"endTime":1755.596,"body":"which is an open question, we should expect there to be more"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1755.596,"endTime":1759.385,"body":"isolation, more mental health challenges, more,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1759.976,"endTime":1762.566,"body":"longing for community that people don't know how to find,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1763.695,"endTime":1768.336,"body":"less social capital, which makes for a worse society. And, you"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1768.336,"endTime":1771.836,"body":"know, I'm not pinning it all on religious obsolescence, but"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1771.836,"endTime":1775.935,"body":"especially since COVID, and that was part of it, too, we see this"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1775.935,"endTime":1779.576,"body":"empirically. Like, we know that Gen Z-ers, and Millennials and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1779.576,"endTime":1783.496,"body":"especially Gen Z-ers, have lots of, you know, mental and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1783.496,"endTime":1787.135,"body":"emotional struggles that older generations who, say, fought"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1787.135,"endTime":1790.236,"body":"World War II, maybe they had them, but they worked through"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1790.236,"endTime":1793.525,"body":"them. And we know that especially after COVID, but it's"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1793.525,"endTime":1795.836,"body":"not just because of COVID, there's a lot of Americans who"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1795.836,"endTime":1800.016,"body":"are feeling lonely and isolated and wish they had community and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1800.016,"endTime":1804.296,"body":"don't know how to find it. Well, churches and synagogues used to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1804.296,"endTime":1807.256,"body":"be the place where people found it. If they're not gonna find it"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1807.256,"endTime":1810.256,"body":"there- ... If they don't find it somewhere else, they're gonna be"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1810.256,"endTime":1813.875,"body":"lonely- ... And not fe- and not have the community they want. So"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1813.875,"endTime":1816.546,"body":"in theory, we have good reason to"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1817.955,"endTime":1822.506,"body":"p- to wonder or to suspect that this will have socially,"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1823.256,"endTime":1826.695,"body":"damaging, so to speak, and psychologically damaging and"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1826.695,"endTime":1830.635,"body":"interpersonally damaging consequences if people decide"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1830.635,"endTime":1833.743,"body":"traditional religion is not of any interest."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1833.743,"endTime":1834.784,"body":"... I think there's a lot of people that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1834.784,"endTime":1838.443,"body":"would agree with you, people such as Richard Dawkins now,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1838.443,"endTime":1841.564,"body":"[chuckles] ironically and surprisingly, and a range of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1841.564,"endTime":1844.544,"body":"voices of people saying, \"You know what? This movement to get"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.544,"endTime":1849.463,"body":"rid of religion, and then we'd have a wonderful society, maybe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1849.463,"endTime":1853.943,"body":"that was short-sighted, and at least we need it for a cultural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1853.943,"endTime":1857.903,"body":"kind of cohesion and health position.\" And, of course, we'd"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1857.903,"endTime":1860.483,"body":"argue here at Biola that religion has much more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1860.483,"endTime":1863.923,"body":"[chuckles] value than that, but I think that would support your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1863.923,"endTime":1867.483,"body":"point as well. Dr. Christian Smith, really appreciate you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1867.483,"endTime":1871.064,"body":"coming on. Your book, Why Religion Went Obsolete, is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1871.064,"endTime":1874.983,"body":"excellent. It's the first kind of 30,000-foot-view"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1875.544,"endTime":1880.044,"body":"perspective on various forces contributing to the demise of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1880.044,"endTime":1881.753,"body":"traditional faith in America."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1882.443,"endTime":1885.104,"body":"And Scott and I were talking how there's, you know, maybe a point"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1885.104,"endTime":1888.023,"body":"here or there where we might quibble or differ, but that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1888.023,"endTime":1891.523,"body":"really beside the point here. I would encourage individuals to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1891.523,"endTime":1895.403,"body":"study, especially churches. At the end, you don't give a big,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1895.403,"endTime":1898.433,"body":"like, solution, \"Here's how you fix it.\" You stay in your lane,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1898.433,"endTime":1901.423,"body":"[chuckles] which I appreciate as a sociologist, and say, \"I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1901.423,"endTime":1905.604,"body":"just diagnosing as best I can what's going on in America.\" I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1905.604,"endTime":1906.604,"body":"would really encourage"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1907.243,"endTime":1910.923,"body":"churches to pick up a copy, Christian schools, talk about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1910.923,"endTime":1915.223,"body":"it, discuss it, and say, if you are right, what would this mean"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1915.223,"endTime":1919.864,"body":"for their practice? That's where I think some of the huge value"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1919.864,"endTime":1922.864,"body":"will come in. So we really appreciate you coming on. Again,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1922.864,"endTime":1926.784,"body":"folks, pick up a copy of Why Religion Went Obsolete. Thanks,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1926.784,"endTime":1928.263,"body":"Dr. Smith."},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1928.263,"endTime":1929.483,"body":"You're very welcome. Thanks for your"},{"speaker":"Christian Smith","startTime":1929.483,"endTime":1929.864,"body":"interest."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1930.644,"endTime":1932.564,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1932.564,"endTime":1936.443,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture. It's brought"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1936.443,"endTime":1939.384,"body":"to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. We"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1939.384,"endTime":1942.784,"body":"have programs online and in person here in Southern"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1942.784,"endTime":1947.304,"body":"California, spiritual formation, Christian apologetics, Bible"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1947.304,"endTime":1951.923,"body":"theology, and more. Please send in your comments or ask"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1951.923,"endTime":1956.703,"body":"questions to us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. I'd"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1956.703,"endTime":1960.023,"body":"really encourage you to please consider writing a review on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1960.023,"endTime":1964.584,"body":"your podcast app. It helps us tremendously to reach more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1964.584,"endTime":1968.263,"body":"people, and again, we really appreciate you listening. In the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1968.263,"endTime":1971.023,"body":"meantime, before our next episode, remember to think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1971.023,"endTime":1980.523,"body":"biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}