{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.1,"endTime":4.08,"body":"[upbeat music] Screens and social media have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4.08,"endTime":7.759,"body":"reshaped the world and our minds, bringing an appetite for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":7.759,"endTime":11.839,"body":"distraction, loneliness, and increased rates of mental health"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":11.839,"endTime":14.9,"body":"challenges. Is it time for Christians to rethink their"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.9,"endTime":18.14,"body":"relationship with screens and to consider what it means to live"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":18.14,"endTime":21.78,"body":"faithfully in our screen-dominated world? Our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":21.78,"endTime":25.379,"body":"guest today, author Brett McCracken, says yes, and he is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":25.379,"endTime":29.48,"body":"the co-editor of a helpful, insightful, and timely new book"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":29.48,"endTime":33.28,"body":"called Scrolling Ourselves to Death. I'm your host, Sean"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":33.28,"endTime":33.84,"body":"McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":33.84,"endTime":35.28,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":35.28,"endTime":37.56,"body":"This is Think Biblically, a podcast brought to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":37.56,"endTime":40.39,"body":"you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.899,"endTime":44.28,"body":"Brett, it's always good to have you back on. Thanks for joining"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":44.28,"endTime":45.7,"body":"us today."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":45.7,"endTime":47.24,"body":"Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Sean. Thanks,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":47.24,"endTime":49.039,"body":"Scott. It's great to be back."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":49.039,"endTime":51.759,"body":"So you state the motivation for this book pretty"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":51.759,"endTime":54.78,"body":"early in your opening chapter when you say, quote, \"In many"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":54.78,"endTime":60.179,"body":"ways, the smartphone is literally killing us.\" What do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":60.179,"endTime":63.24,"body":"you mean by that, and how does that play into the vision for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":63.24,"endTime":64.18,"body":"this book?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":64.18,"endTime":66.319,"body":"Yeah, I mean, it's, it's killing us on a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":66.319,"endTime":70.799,"body":"number of levels. So, you know, w- one is, like, literally"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":70.799,"endTime":73.299,"body":"killing us, so you could, [chuckles] you could look at,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":73.299,"endTime":76.319,"body":"like, distracted driving as an example of that, where the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":76.319,"endTime":80.28,"body":"numbers of people killed every year from literally scrolling or"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":80.28,"endTime":82.98,"body":"looking at their phone while they're driving or- ... You"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":82.98,"endTime":86.519,"body":"know, the person taking a selfie at the Grand Canyon and, like,-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":86.519,"endTime":86.629,"body":"[laughing] Oh, gosh"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":86.629,"endTime":89.23,"body":"... Dies, you know, death by selfie."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":89.23,"endTime":89.709,"body":"Yeah. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":89.709,"endTime":91.28,"body":"So there's kind of that, there's that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":91.28,"endTime":94.7,"body":"hyper-literal level, where we... You know, some people actually"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":94.7,"endTime":98.319,"body":"do scroll themselves to death. But, probably the bigger"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":98.319,"endTime":101.739,"body":"category is the emotional death, you know, that is happening in"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":101.739,"endTime":102.659,"body":"our culture with"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":103.219,"endTime":107.299,"body":"mental health is deteriorating, and that's widely documented."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":108.04,"endTime":110.64,"body":"Suicide, you know, youth suicide rates are"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":111.2,"endTime":115.98,"body":"on the rise, depression, anxiety, things like that. So in"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":115.98,"endTime":117.06,"body":"a very real way,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":117.7,"endTime":122.26,"body":"screens, social media, you know, are killing us on that emotional"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":122.26,"endTime":125.659,"body":"level. But I would say there's a third level, which, for"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":125.659,"endTime":129.18,"body":"Christians, is of note and of concern, and that's the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":129.18,"endTime":130.199,"body":"spiritual death"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":130.86,"endTime":135.699,"body":"that I think happens when we are addicted to screens, and we're"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":135.699,"endTime":137.36,"body":"kind of going through life"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":137.96,"endTime":142.099,"body":"hunched over, looking down at our screens instead of looking"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":142.099,"endTime":145.719,"body":"up, right? Instead of communing with the Creator and having"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":145.719,"endTime":150.319,"body":"time to just be still with Him, and spiritual disciplines kind"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":150.319,"endTime":154.8,"body":"of get crowded out in the age of the algorithm and hyper"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":154.8,"endTime":156.0,"body":"distraction."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":156.599,"endTime":159.62,"body":"And so there's a real spiritual deprivation that's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":159.62,"endTime":163.759,"body":"going on th- that I think is very directly related to our"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":163.759,"endTime":166.719,"body":"habits of digital technology and smartphones. And that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":166.719,"endTime":168.879,"body":"third level of kind of the spiritual death, I think is"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":168.879,"endTime":169.759,"body":"probably what we're"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":170.3,"endTime":172.96,"body":"getting at the most in Scrolling Ourselves to Death, although we"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":172.96,"endTime":174.669,"body":"do, you know, mention those other"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":175.259,"endTime":177.639,"body":"forms of death as well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":177.639,"endTime":179.28,"body":"Now, Brett, one of the things that attracted me to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":179.28,"endTime":183.06,"body":"the book almost immediately is it's, it's a, it's, it's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":183.06,"endTime":184.02,"body":"tribute to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":184.8,"endTime":187.28,"body":"wh- I think one of the most insightful people I've ever"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":187.28,"endTime":190.06,"body":"read, which is Neil Postman from his-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":190.06,"endTime":190.28,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":190.28,"endTime":193.12,"body":"... From his book 40 years ago, Amusing Ourselves to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":193.12,"endTime":197.939,"body":"Death. So tell us a little bit about who Postman was and why"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":197.939,"endTime":201.129,"body":"that book was so important and so prophetic for the moment- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":201.129,"endTime":203.439,"body":"That we're in now, 'cause I completely-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":203.439,"endTime":203.53,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":203.53,"endTime":204.759,"body":"... Agree."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":204.759,"endTime":206.86,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, Postman,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":207.379,"endTime":211.52,"body":"also for me, just in my intellectual formation, has been"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":211.52,"endTime":214.78,"body":"f- hugely, influential. I remember reading him as an"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":214.78,"endTime":218.419,"body":"undergrad. I went to Wheaton College, and I was a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":218.419,"endTime":221.199,"body":"communications major, and my professor"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":221.759,"endTime":226.379,"body":"had actually studied under Neil Postman at NYU in his media"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":226.379,"endTime":230.139,"body":"ecology, graduate program. And so I kind of had this"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":230.139,"endTime":231.659,"body":"secondhand, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":232.3,"endTime":233.759,"body":"education in all things"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":234.419,"endTime":237.939,"body":"Neil Postman and Marshall McLuhan by extension, as an"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":237.939,"endTime":241.439,"body":"undergrad. So, so yeah, Postman and that book, Amusing Ourselves"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":241.439,"endTime":244.86,"body":"to Death, also Technopoly, another book, that he wrote"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":245.46,"endTime":249.02,"body":"in the early '90s, were really formational for me and for so"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":249.02,"endTime":252.379,"body":"many people. I talk to people all the time who point to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":252.379,"endTime":255.78,"body":"Amusing Ourselves to Death as, like, one of those seminal books"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":255.78,"endTime":259.838,"body":"that has stood the test of time, even though it was a very timely"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":259.838,"endTime":264.06,"body":"book in one sense when it came out in 1985. Postman, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":264.06,"endTime":266.36,"body":"who was a public intellectual,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":266.92,"endTime":270.48,"body":"writing about culture and kind of trends he was seeing,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":271.04,"endTime":271.399,"body":"he was"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":272.18,"endTime":276.579,"body":"responding to a very specific technological moment, namely"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":276.579,"endTime":280.439,"body":"television, and how television had transformed,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":281.139,"endTime":285.74,"body":"discourse and kind of the life of the mind. But even though he"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":285.74,"endTime":289.259,"body":"was talking about a specific technological form that we look"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":289.259,"endTime":292.399,"body":"back upon as kind of, well, that's a relic, you know, t, you"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":292.399,"endTime":294.04,"body":"know, analog television-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":294.04,"endTime":294.05,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":294.05,"endTime":296.079,"body":"... Three networks."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":296.079,"endTime":296.93,"body":"Three stations. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":296.93,"endTime":296.93,"body":"Three stations."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":296.93,"endTime":296.939,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":296.939,"endTime":298.5,"body":"That was a long time ago. We're in a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":298.5,"endTime":300.54,"body":"different era now, but,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":301.1,"endTime":304.759,"body":"but so many of the principles of what he... Kind of how he was"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":304.759,"endTime":305.959,"body":"thinking through this"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":306.519,"endTime":310.6,"body":"still apply today, and that's what, I think makes that book"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":310.6,"endTime":312.18,"body":"such a classic, is,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":312.74,"endTime":317.139,"body":"it dr- it really models well how to think critically about"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":317.759,"endTime":321.36,"body":"technology and how a form of technology, how the medium"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":321.879,"endTime":325.519,"body":"affects the message, how a- ... Technology changes"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":326.04,"endTime":329.699,"body":"how we think and how we act and how we live in the world. And so"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":329.699,"endTime":332.399,"body":"even if the particular technology he was looking at is"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":332.399,"endTime":336.56,"body":"outdated, the form and the method which, with which"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":336.56,"endTime":337.269,"body":"he goes about"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":337.819,"endTime":341.72,"body":"analyzing that technology is timeless in some way. And so"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":341.72,"endTime":344.04,"body":"what we're doing in Scrolling Ourselves to Death is trying to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":344.04,"endTime":349.139,"body":"just apply some of Postman's evergreen wisdom and method to a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":349.139,"endTime":351.54,"body":"new era of digital technology,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":352.259,"endTime":354.86,"body":"things that he couldn't even have imagined, you know, would"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":354.86,"endTime":358.519,"body":"be technologies 40 years from now, and yet have some"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":358.519,"endTime":361.74,"body":"continuity with television, right? There's, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":361.74,"endTime":362.839,"body":"overlap between what"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":363.36,"endTime":366.779,"body":"he was observing about television as a form and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":366.779,"endTime":370.627,"body":"obviously what-... Or s- our iPhone screens, you know, it,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":370.627,"endTime":372.627,"body":"[chuckles] they're like mini televisions, right? But-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":372.627,"endTime":373.267,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":373.267,"endTime":375.067,"body":"They're very different, but they're also the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":375.067,"endTime":378.086,"body":"same in a lot of ways. So- So yeah, that was kind of our"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":378.086,"endTime":378.966,"body":"inspiration."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":378.966,"endTime":380.966,"body":"Yeah. Do you think Postman would say anything"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":380.966,"endTime":381.447,"body":"different"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":382.206,"endTime":382.687,"body":"about-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":383.807,"endTime":387.327,"body":"... The internet, TikTok, social media-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":387.327,"endTime":387.336,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":387.336,"endTime":388.807,"body":"... Than he said about television?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":390.146,"endTime":392.247,"body":"I mean, I think he would say a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":392.247,"endTime":395.487,"body":"same things, but maybe just elevated to, like, kind of next"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":395.487,"endTime":398.045,"body":"level of urgent concern. Because,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":398.687,"endTime":403.007,"body":"like, for example, one of the things he talks about in Amusing"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":403.007,"endTime":406.947,"body":"Ourselves to Death is the way that television juxtaposes the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":406.947,"endTime":410.367,"body":"serious and the trivial, right? Like, think of a newscast where"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":411.067,"endTime":412.447,"body":"there is a,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":413.007,"endTime":417.007,"body":"[tsks] kind of a weather report next to, like, a sports report,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":417.007,"endTime":422.867,"body":"next to a serious news report about politics or some sort of,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":422.867,"endTime":426.466,"body":"like, genocide in another part of the world. Like, Postman"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":426.466,"endTime":428.786,"body":"observed, like, there's something problematic here,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":428.786,"endTime":432.327,"body":"where we are digesting information that's all over the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":432.327,"endTime":437.927,"body":"map. It's the trivial next to the serious, next to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":437.927,"endTime":440.846,"body":"cute videos of dogs. You know- ... Like, what does that do to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":440.846,"endTime":443.918,"body":"our brains? What does that do to our thinking,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":444.646,"endTime":448.048,"body":"when we're consuming information that way? Well, if"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":448.048,"endTime":452.406,"body":"you would look at TikTok or, like, your Facebook feed or X"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":452.406,"endTime":455.507,"body":"feed, you know, it is that same thing, but just to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":456.206,"endTime":459.726,"body":"a heightened degree, where we're scrolling through very"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":459.726,"endTime":462.507,"body":"disconnected, very fragmentary information, and it's the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":462.507,"endTime":463.107,"body":"serious"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":463.646,"endTime":464.747,"body":"next to the trivial,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":465.267,"endTime":469.327,"body":"and now it's the real next to the fake. It's, like, AI videos"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":469.327,"endTime":471.646,"body":"and real videos."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":471.646,"endTime":473.867,"body":"So we're, we are amusing ourselves to death on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":473.867,"endTime":474.726,"body":"steroids then."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":474.726,"endTime":476.487,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":476.487,"endTime":477.947,"body":"That's awesome. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":478.487,"endTime":481.966,"body":"one of the questions I have is what metrics we should use as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":481.966,"endTime":484.646,"body":"Christians, whether we use a particular"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":485.406,"endTime":488.206,"body":"technology or not. And, you know, when we look in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":488.206,"endTime":492.387,"body":"Scriptures, Paul wrote letters, the means of his day to spread"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":492.387,"endTime":496.406,"body":"the word. Jesus told stories that you could remember. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":496.406,"endTime":500.107,"body":"they're using wise means of communication. Always-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":500.107,"endTime":500.276,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":500.276,"endTime":502.548,"body":"... Jesus would go stand in a boat, in part, it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":502.548,"endTime":507.307,"body":"would echo his voice. So what metrics should we use to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":507.307,"endTime":511.668,"body":"questions like, would Jesus have used TikTok? Would the Apostle"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":511.668,"endTime":515.206,"body":"Paul have a YouTube channel, and should we? How would you even"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":515.206,"endTime":517.788,"body":"approach those questions?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":517.788,"endTime":520.567,"body":"I think those are fascinating questions and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":520.567,"endTime":523.626,"body":"thought experiments, and I think it's actually a useful thought"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":523.626,"endTime":526.967,"body":"experiment for Christians to think through that kind of what"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":526.967,"endTime":529.947,"body":"would Jesus do, question."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":530.866,"endTime":531.147,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":531.807,"endTime":533.298,"body":"diagnostic questions that I"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":533.847,"endTime":536.626,"body":"think through personally when it comes to, like, whether or not"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":536.626,"endTime":538.168,"body":"to use a technology,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":539.447,"endTime":544.567,"body":"include things like, is this going to change the essence of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":544.567,"endTime":547.768,"body":"what I'm trying to do here? Is it going to compromise it? Is it"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":547.768,"endTime":552.467,"body":"going to undermine it, or is it going to enhance it, or, at the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":552.467,"endTime":553.827,"body":"very least, kind of,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":554.607,"endTime":554.927,"body":"not"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":555.488,"endTime":557.168,"body":"damage it in some way?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":558.227,"endTime":563.048,"body":"But I think as Postman and McLuhan point out, most"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":563.048,"endTime":566.067,"body":"technologies, if not all technologies, are not neutral in"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":566.067,"endTime":570.347,"body":"the sense that they all change the game in some way. They, they"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":570.347,"endTime":575.008,"body":"have pluses and minuses, pros and cons. And so I think the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":575.008,"endTime":578.107,"body":"question, the hypothetical question about what would-- what"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":578.107,"endTime":581.177,"body":"technologies today would, like, the apostles use, would Jesus"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":581.177,"endTime":585.168,"body":"use, it's impossible to answer in some way, but I would hope"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":585.168,"endTime":588.827,"body":"that they would at least kind of think carefully about that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":589.347,"endTime":591.508,"body":"medium changing the message,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":592.087,"endTime":596.168,"body":"question. Like, I was thinking about, like, [tsks] Jesus and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":596.168,"endTime":599.107,"body":"the children, that scene in the Gospels where Jesus says, \"Let"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":599.107,"endTime":603.126,"body":"the children come to me.\" That was, like, an incarnational,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":603.126,"endTime":607.647,"body":"like, embodied moment. But, like, what if he started, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":607.647,"endTime":611.967,"body":"a YouTube channel for children, like so many YouTube influencers"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":611.967,"endTime":613.657,"body":"are doing today? Like, my kids"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":614.207,"endTime":617.227,"body":"watch, like, their favourite YouTube channels of, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":617.227,"endTime":620.268,"body":"children-oriented entertainment. Like, would Jesus do that? Like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":620.268,"endTime":624.227,"body":"instead of just going to a group of kids and let them come"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":624.227,"endTime":625.886,"body":"kind of sit at his feet,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":626.447,"endTime":628.488,"body":"would he choose instead to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":629.447,"endTime":632.167,"body":"have a greater reach, perhaps reach more children with a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":632.167,"endTime":636.447,"body":"YouTube channel, but at the expense of not seeing these"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":636.447,"endTime":640.227,"body":"children face to face and not having this incarnational,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":640.227,"endTime":643.748,"body":"encounter with them? You know, think about his encounter with"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":643.748,"endTime":647.366,"body":"the woman at the well. Like, could that happen on Instagram"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":647.366,"endTime":648.548,"body":"today, where, like-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":648.548,"endTime":648.947,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":648.947,"endTime":650.587,"body":"... Through, like, through, like, direct"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":650.587,"endTime":653.447,"body":"messages with some, like, unfortunate woman who's having,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":653.447,"endTime":656.626,"body":"like, a difficult time? Like, maybe Jesus would just DM her"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":656.626,"endTime":658.677,"body":"and have that whole interchange that way."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":658.677,"endTime":659.488,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":659.488,"endTime":659.657,"body":"Like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":660.508,"endTime":663.667,"body":"I don't think so, right? I think for him, the incarnational"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":663.667,"endTime":667.727,"body":"aspect of, like, sitting with people face to face mattered a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":667.727,"endTime":671.508,"body":"lot. So I actually... To, to answer that question, would"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":671.508,"endTime":672.827,"body":"Jesus use these technologies,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":673.347,"endTime":677.227,"body":"I personally have a hard time thinking that he would- ... For"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":677.227,"endTime":679.707,"body":"the simple fact that he valued"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":680.508,"endTime":683.548,"body":"embodiment, right? That's what the incarnation is all about. He"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":683.548,"endTime":685.557,"body":"chose to take on flesh. He chose"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":686.087,"endTime":690.207,"body":"to be in relationship with people, to sit at tables with"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":690.207,"endTime":692.207,"body":"people and have meals."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":692.727,"endTime":694.217,"body":"That mattered to him, and I think"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":695.587,"endTime":698.567,"body":"we should take something from that. It should matter to us,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":698.567,"endTime":701.528,"body":"and we're living in a world where it matters less and less,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":701.528,"endTime":704.768,"body":"and we're choosing to have more of our lives, more of our"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":704.768,"endTime":705.827,"body":"interactions with people"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":706.667,"endTime":709.988,"body":"disembodied, you know, in the direct message, in the text"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":709.988,"endTime":710.988,"body":"message, in the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":711.587,"endTime":715.508,"body":"YouTube influencer kind of platform. And I just think for,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":715.508,"endTime":718.647,"body":"for us, you know, trying to be like Jesus, that's what being a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":718.647,"endTime":721.187,"body":"Christian is. We're trying to be more like Jesus. We should"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":721.187,"endTime":722.626,"body":"really ask that question, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":723.488,"endTime":727.788,"body":"\"What are we missing here, like, in terms of embodied communion"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":727.788,"endTime":730.668,"body":"with fellow embodied beings?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":730.668,"endTime":732.128,"body":"... So I appreciate that you're asking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":732.128,"endTime":735.187,"body":"certain questions rather than giving a dogmatic response,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":735.187,"endTime":737.028,"body":"'cause it is hypothetical. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":737.028,"endTime":737.447,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":737.447,"endTime":740.368,"body":"But I, if the, if the concern is being"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":740.368,"endTime":741.227,"body":"embodied,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":741.748,"endTime":745.197,"body":"well, letters are not embodied. They were written-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":745.197,"endTime":745.197,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":745.197,"endTime":748.207,"body":"... And carried, so why couldn't a YouTube"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":748.207,"endTime":752.788,"body":"channel, in principle, not replace, but be used within a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":752.788,"endTime":757.067,"body":"community, in the same way?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":757.067,"endTime":758.947,"body":"Yeah, and I think those, obviously, there's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":758.947,"endTime":763.427,"body":"examples throughout the New Testament of, you know, letters"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":763.427,"endTime":767.408,"body":"and even the form of the Bible. You know, God chose to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":767.408,"endTime":770.567,"body":"reveal himself in another form. So the incarnation was one"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":770.567,"endTime":774.548,"body":"example of, like, a medium as the message, the medium of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":774.548,"endTime":777.788,"body":"a body, the, of Christ, the message. But"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":778.488,"endTime":781.668,"body":"after the ascension, right, and the Holy Spirit comes, and now"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":781.668,"endTime":785.528,"body":"the Word in the accumulated canon of Scripture became the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":785.528,"endTime":789.128,"body":"primary kind of communication form. So there's obviously"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":789.128,"endTime":792.687,"body":"other forms of communication that are valid for"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":792.687,"endTime":794.408,"body":"Christians, but I think in every case,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":794.947,"endTime":799.048,"body":"we just need to ask those simple questions of like- ... What,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":799.048,"endTime":802.957,"body":"what is gained here, and what is lost? Are there any better"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":802.957,"endTime":807.087,"body":"alternatives? And sometimes there aren't, right? For Paul,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":807.087,"endTime":810.628,"body":"with, like, s- letters to churches, there simply wasn't a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":810.628,"endTime":813.488,"body":"better alternative for what he wanted to accomplish."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":814.008,"endTime":817.827,"body":"And I- and so that's... If it's the best solution to a problem"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":817.827,"endTime":820.868,"body":"you have, then I think that's a valid,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":821.687,"endTime":825.408,"body":"a valid thing in terms of adopting a technology. But"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":825.408,"endTime":830.008,"body":"oftentimes, I find in today's world, there are better"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":830.008,"endTime":833.707,"body":"alternatives that are available to us. For example, with, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":833.707,"endTime":837.528,"body":"a friendship. Like, if it's a friend that lives in my city and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":837.528,"endTime":838.687,"body":"not too far away,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":839.947,"endTime":842.788,"body":"and I have the option of going out to coffee with them in"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":842.788,"endTime":847.227,"body":"person and having this embodied moment with them, or just, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":847.227,"endTime":851.087,"body":"texting them all the time, and that's the extent of it, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":851.087,"endTime":855.307,"body":"in that case, texting is not the best option. Like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":856.028,"endTime":858.548,"body":"it's [chuckles] it's an easier option, and maybe it's more"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":858.548,"endTime":861.508,"body":"convenient, but it's not the best option. And"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":862.048,"endTime":865.648,"body":"when we have two options available to us, I think we have"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":865.648,"endTime":867.988,"body":"to think through what is going to be the best for this"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":867.988,"endTime":871.427,"body":"particular type of communication, type of communion"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":871.427,"endTime":874.168,"body":"that we want to have. But obviously, if you're trying to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":874.168,"endTime":877.847,"body":"reach friends on the other side of the world or if you're, you"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":877.847,"endTime":880.488,"body":"know... If there's limitations that prohibit,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":881.087,"endTime":885.727,"body":"a certain form of communication, choose the next best option. And"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":885.727,"endTime":888.467,"body":"that, Paul was certainly doing that as he tried to communicate"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":888.467,"endTime":892.028,"body":"to the churches in the Mediterranean world."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":892.028,"endTime":893.827,"body":"Yeah, Sean, I've actually had people say to me"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":893.827,"endTime":896.888,"body":"today, \"You know, don't, don't call me"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":897.528,"endTime":899.648,"body":"unless it's emergency. Text me.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":899.648,"endTime":900.288,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":900.288,"endTime":902.347,"body":"They don't, they don't wanna hear a voice. They"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":902.347,"endTime":905.248,"body":"just say, \"Uh, don't waste my time with a phone call. Just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":905.248,"endTime":907.748,"body":"send me a text, unless it's an emer- if it's an emergency,\" and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":907.748,"endTime":909.988,"body":"then, you know, and so there are times when I've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":909.988,"endTime":912.048,"body":"texted... When I've called, and they say, \"Well, you know, why"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":912.048,"endTime":912.908,"body":"are you calling me?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":912.908,"endTime":913.548,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":913.548,"endTime":913.658,"body":"You know-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":913.658,"endTime":913.868,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":913.868,"endTime":915.967,"body":"... Just put it, put it in a text."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":917.148,"endTime":920.388,"body":"Brett, I don't think it's... I mean, it used to be, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":920.388,"endTime":922.207,"body":"like a contested notion"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":922.788,"endTime":926.488,"body":"that, technology is neutral or not."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":927.048,"endTime":929.248,"body":"I think, I think most people agree today that tech, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":929.248,"endTime":931.908,"body":"especially media technology, is not neutral."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":931.908,"endTime":932.788,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":932.788,"endTime":934.868,"body":"You know, either morally, worldview, or however"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":934.868,"endTime":938.347,"body":"you wanna describe that. But you make a... One of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":938.347,"endTime":942.488,"body":"your authors in the book makes a really provocative point, that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":942.488,"endTime":946.388,"body":"media technology has shaped and reshaped specifically our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":946.388,"endTime":947.107,"body":"theology"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":948.008,"endTime":951.187,"body":"and our- ... And the way we, the way we kind of do our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":951.187,"endTime":953.587,"body":"theological understanding. Can you spell out a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":954.327,"endTime":956.727,"body":"why you think that's the case? 'Cause that's a, that's an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":956.727,"endTime":959.988,"body":"application, honestly, I just, I haven't considered before."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":959.988,"endTime":961.227,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":961.227,"endTime":962.207,"body":"different,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":963.447,"endTime":965.368,"body":"ways that that is happening."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":966.408,"endTime":970.648,"body":"I think one thing that comes to mind for me is the orientation"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":970.648,"endTime":974.868,"body":"of social media and smartphones is so individualistic, right?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":974.868,"endTime":978.628,"body":"Like, we're- they condition us to look at the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":978.628,"endTime":984.008,"body":"world through the lens of, \"I get what I want when I want it,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":984.008,"endTime":986.756,"body":"tailored to me. I can opt out"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":987.427,"endTime":991.548,"body":"and unfollow things that I don't like very easily. I can delete"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":991.548,"endTime":995.067,"body":"apps if I don't want them anymore. Like, everything I"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":995.067,"endTime":998.908,"body":"want, I can get on Amazon Prime, next-day shipping.\" Like, it"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":998.908,"endTime":1000.597,"body":"puts us in this very,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1001.847,"endTime":1005.768,"body":"artificially inflated sense of power and kind of, \"I'm the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1005.768,"endTime":1008.788,"body":"center of the universe.\" Some people have called it the main"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1008.788,"endTime":1010.077,"body":"character syndrome, where-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1010.077,"endTime":1010.677,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1010.677,"endTime":1012.927,"body":"... Just the inter, just the interface of the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1012.927,"endTime":1015.868,"body":"smartphone, it's called the iPhone for a reason, right?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1015.868,"endTime":1016.607,"body":"Lowercase i."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1016.607,"endTime":1016.727,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1016.727,"endTime":1019.307,"body":"Like, the world is about you. It's, it's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1019.307,"endTime":1023.528,"body":"the iPhone. It, it's- it conditions you over time to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1024.288,"endTime":1028.087,"body":"expect everything to cater to your whims,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1028.728,"endTime":1034.488,"body":"and I think that for theological thinking, that can't help but"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1034.488,"endTime":1038.508,"body":"shape us to start to think about Scripture, and doctrine, and,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1038.508,"endTime":1042.468,"body":"and theology in this kind of like, \"Well, I'm gonna, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1042.468,"endTime":1046.647,"body":"contort it to fit my preferences because that's just the way that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1046.647,"endTime":1049.468,"body":"I interact with everything in the world. And if there's a part"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1049.468,"endTime":1050.907,"body":"of Scripture I don't like or"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1051.488,"endTime":1056.228,"body":"a theological tribe that I find off-putting, I'm just gonna mute"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1056.228,"endTime":1060.347,"body":"that and ignore that, and I'm gonna gravitate to my own kind"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1060.347,"endTime":1063.548,"body":"of personally curated echo chamber of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1064.127,"endTime":1068.528,"body":"truth as I see it. You know, my truth- ... Your truth.\" So even"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1068.528,"endTime":1072.347,"body":"that epistemological question of, like, truth is very much"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1072.347,"endTime":1076.028,"body":"affected by this dynamic. [chuckles] Like, it's no, it's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1076.028,"endTime":1079.948,"body":"no coincidence that the post-truth era, the word of the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1079.948,"endTime":1083.607,"body":"year in 2016, was post-truth. That coincided with this"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1083.607,"endTime":1085.518,"body":"technological revolution of,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1086.407,"endTime":1089.688,"body":"the internet and social media, and what happens to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1089.688,"endTime":1092.919,"body":"truth-... In this technological era is that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1093.72,"endTime":1097.759,"body":"inevitably, we all just see what we wanna see. We define truth as"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1097.759,"endTime":1100.99,"body":"we wanna define it, and whenever there's a truth that we don't"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1100.99,"endTime":1105.059,"body":"like, just like if there's, someone on Twitter that we don't"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1105.059,"endTime":1107.898,"body":"like or someone on Instagram that we don't like, we just"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1107.898,"endTime":1111.039,"body":"unfollow it, and we mute it, and we pretend it doesn't exist. We"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1111.039,"endTime":1114.559,"body":"don't have to reckon with truth that we don't like, because"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1114.559,"endTime":1118.619,"body":"there's more than enough things online that I can find that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1118.619,"endTime":1122.72,"body":"support my truth and that are evidence, quote-unquote, for my"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1122.72,"endTime":1125.839,"body":"truth. So there's a lot more we could say about that, but-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1125.839,"endTime":1126.009,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1126.009,"endTime":1126.009,"body":"Yeah, that's true"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1126.009,"endTime":1127.2,"body":"... And there's a couple chapters in the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1127.2,"endTime":1130.378,"body":"book that get at that, but I do think the epistemological"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1130.378,"endTime":1131.179,"body":"transformation"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1131.799,"endTime":1136.799,"body":"is just massive in our culture due to the technological change."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1136.799,"endTime":1138.859,"body":"When I speak at conferences, I'll often do a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1138.859,"endTime":1142.579,"body":"breakout session on smartphones and social media, and I don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1142.579,"endTime":1145.22,"body":"preach to the students. They don't generally wanna hear a dad"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1145.22,"endTime":1146.5,"body":"telling them what to do [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1146.5,"endTime":1146.509,"body":"Mm-hmm, mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1146.509,"endTime":1148.878,"body":"... And not do, but I just ask them questions."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1148.878,"endTime":1152.319,"body":"How does your smartphone positively, negatively influence"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1152.319,"endTime":1156.259,"body":"your relationships? How does it positively, negatively affect"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1156.259,"endTime":1160.659,"body":"your sense of identity? How does it positively, negatively affect"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1160.659,"endTime":1164.46,"body":"you spiritually? And this isn't true just for smartphones."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1164.46,"endTime":1167.138,"body":"There's some amazing technology. Like, think about how much the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1167.138,"endTime":1169.898,"body":"clock has changed the way we see the world-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1169.898,"endTime":1169.909,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1169.909,"endTime":1173.48,"body":"... Or cars and airplanes and air conditioning"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1173.48,"endTime":1176.579,"body":"and refrigerators. [chuckles] Like, all technology-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1176.579,"endTime":1176.589,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1176.589,"endTime":1178.599,"body":"... Changes the way we see the world and each"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1178.599,"endTime":1181.96,"body":"other. And a smartphone, even though we've lived through this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1181.96,"endTime":1186.179,"body":"is arguably one of the s- most significant- ..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1186.179,"endTime":1190.94,"body":"Worldview-changing technologies ever produced, and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1190.94,"endTime":1194.659,"body":"we're so in the middle of it, that we don't see it."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1194.659,"endTime":1194.839,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1194.839,"endTime":1197.119,"body":"Now, with that said, I'm, I'm curious if you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1197.119,"endTime":1199.398,"body":"could answer this question. We- you talk about in one of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1199.398,"endTime":1201.799,"body":"chapters in the book, this is a compilation book, and by the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1201.799,"endTime":1204.069,"body":"way, our very own Thaddeus Williams-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1204.069,"endTime":1204.079,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1204.079,"endTime":1206.019,"body":"... Here at Talbot, has an excellent chapter"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1206.019,"endTime":1209.339,"body":"in this one on telling the truth about Jesus in an age of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1209.339,"endTime":1210.199,"body":"incoherence."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1210.839,"endTime":1211.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1211.0,"endTime":1212.199,"body":"But I'd be curious if you could talk about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1212.199,"endTime":1216.72,"body":"how smartphones change not just our minds, our thinking, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1216.72,"endTime":1219.759,"body":"they also change our brains."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1219.759,"endTime":1222.5,"body":"Yeah, there's a ton of really interesting"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1222.5,"endTime":1226.079,"body":"science out there that gets at this. You know, even"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1226.779,"endTime":1229.579,"body":"books like Nicholas Carr's The Shallows, which is now kind of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1229.579,"endTime":1230.96,"body":"dated. I think that came out-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1230.96,"endTime":1231.179,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1231.179,"endTime":1233.759,"body":"... You know, 15 years ago, but he was already"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1233.759,"endTime":1237.898,"body":"starting to tell that story, and ever since, there's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1237.898,"endTime":1240.99,"body":"been more and more research. A book that I"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1241.5,"endTime":1244.599,"body":"l- that I like that's came out five years ago is called Reader,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1244.599,"endTime":1248.119,"body":"Come Home by Maryanne Wolf, and she talks about how, like, the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1248.119,"endTime":1250.179,"body":"reading brain and the capacity,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1251.22,"endTime":1256.019,"body":"the, just the cognitive capacity to read and digest"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1256.019,"endTime":1259.46,"body":"information in kind of the way that we used to do,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1260.368,"endTime":1263.549,"body":"is atrophying. It's a muscle that,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1264.159,"endTime":1266.599,"body":"people are losing the ability to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1267.46,"endTime":1268.839,"body":"[chuckles] kind of, to kind of exercise,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1269.398,"endTime":1273.878,"body":"and it's because of the way that we encounter information on"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1273.878,"endTime":1276.388,"body":"the internet, on social media, is just this"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1277.039,"endTime":1279.72,"body":"mile wide, inch deep, constant, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1280.44,"endTime":1284.94,"body":"inundation of information. That's, to go back to Postman,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1284.94,"endTime":1288.679,"body":"like, that's disconnected. It's kind of this and this and this"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1288.679,"endTime":1292.699,"body":"and this. There's no kind of, thread that ties it together."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1292.699,"endTime":1295.25,"body":"There's no big, overarching framework"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1295.819,"endTime":1300.179,"body":"that we categorize things in, so on our brain- on our brains,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1300.179,"endTime":1304.579,"body":"this is just incredibly tac- taxing, as you can imagine. And"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1304.579,"endTime":1307.909,"body":"our brains are... More than, more than any other era of human"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1308.878,"endTime":1309.94,"body":"history,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1311.059,"endTime":1315.619,"body":"our brains are being forced to process information at a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1316.419,"endTime":1317.819,"body":"speed and at a,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1318.759,"endTime":1322.579,"body":"glut, at an amount that has- they've never had to before. And"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1322.579,"endTime":1326.5,"body":"so the energy that is being spent on our brains just kind of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1326.5,"endTime":1329.638,"body":"doing triage with this- ... Flood of information that's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1329.638,"endTime":1334.759,"body":"disconnected, that's coming at us from every direction so fast,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1334.759,"endTime":1336.079,"body":"it means that our brains are"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1336.98,"endTime":1342.919,"body":"exhausted and losing the ability to expend energy in other ways,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1342.919,"endTime":1347.469,"body":"like deep, kind of reflective thinking, that kind of,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1348.228,"endTime":1351.039,"body":"The, the place where wisdom is born, where you're actually able"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1351.039,"endTime":1354.859,"body":"to connect dots and synthesize."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1355.699,"endTime":1359.0,"body":"Now our brains are just so s- they're so spent [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1359.599,"endTime":1363.059,"body":"just simply, like, categorizing all this stimulation that's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1363.059,"endTime":1365.98,"body":"coming in, that they don't, they don't have anything left, and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1365.98,"endTime":1369.259,"body":"you're seeing that. You're seeing how the ability to think"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1369.259,"endTime":1372.699,"body":"critically, I'm sure, you know, you guys in the classroom over"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1372.699,"endTime":1375.079,"body":"the years have maybe noticed this with students. Just it"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1375.079,"endTime":1376.619,"body":"seems like the capacity for like-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1376.619,"endTime":1378.92,"body":"Not, not at Biola, Brett, just for the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1378.92,"endTime":1379.259,"body":"record."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1379.259,"endTime":1379.42,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1379.42,"endTime":1380.869,"body":"But generally speaking, yes. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1380.869,"endTime":1383.788,"body":"Biola is the exception. Yes, Gen Z at Biola"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1383.788,"endTime":1385.71,"body":"are- they are stellar."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1385.71,"endTime":1385.74,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1385.74,"endTime":1388.449,"body":"But I've... I mean, I've noticed it in myself."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1388.449,"endTime":1389.059,"body":"I, so-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1389.059,"endTime":1389.309,"body":"Yeah, that's fair"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1389.309,"endTime":1390.839,"body":"... I don't wanna blame- I don't wanna only"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1390.839,"endTime":1394.529,"body":"point the finger at Gen Z. Like, I've even noticed my ability-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1394.529,"endTime":1394.809,"body":"... To, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1395.519,"endTime":1400.839,"body":"sit with a really intense, meaty book for, like, long periods of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1400.839,"endTime":1403.0,"body":"time is getting harder and-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1403.579,"endTime":1403.589,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1405.0,"endTime":1408.98,"body":"Yeah, and I'm someone who's very cautious about this and careful,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1408.98,"endTime":1410.48,"body":"and if it's happening to me,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1411.219,"endTime":1414.799,"body":"I can't imagine, you know, what digital natives and Gen Z and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1414.799,"endTime":1416.359,"body":"Gen Alpha, what they're"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1416.94,"endTime":1419.898,"body":"dealing with in terms of the brain and how they're"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1419.898,"endTime":1421.378,"body":"processing information."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1422.24,"endTime":1424.398,"body":"You know, Brett, one of the chapters I found the most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1424.398,"endTime":1428.519,"body":"helpful was the one on apologetics and evangelism-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1428.519,"endTime":1428.529,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1428.529,"endTime":1430.378,"body":"... And how they, how they relate to what the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1430.378,"endTime":1433.0,"body":"author calls the scroll-shaped mind."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1433.0,"endTime":1434.179,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1434.179,"endTime":1434.98,"body":"I love that phrase."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1434.98,"endTime":1435.019,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1435.019,"endTime":1438.299,"body":"So helpful. But is there is there something we need"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1438.299,"endTime":1438.779,"body":"to learn"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1439.519,"endTime":1444.92,"body":"about how to proclaim Christian faith or how not to- ... In"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1444.92,"endTime":1448.119,"body":"light of the scroll-shaped mind?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1448.119,"endTime":1449.409,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I d- I think"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1450.839,"endTime":1454.898,"body":"I have, like, a simple answer, or maybe it's too simple, but I"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1454.898,"endTime":1458.579,"body":"think we have to get people offline. Like, I, [chuckles] I"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1458.579,"endTime":1461.851,"body":"don't think the answer is, like-... Let's battle with"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1461.851,"endTime":1465.371,"body":"people on Twitter, and let's like, duke it out in the YouTube"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1465.371,"endTime":1469.991,"body":"comment sections. Like, yes, to some extent, that can be"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1469.991,"endTime":1474.192,"body":"helpful, but like ultimately, to have substantive conversations,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1474.83,"endTime":1479.011,"body":"apologetics, evangelism, I think it needs to happen in that more"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1479.811,"endTime":1480.432,"body":"human"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1481.111,"endTime":1485.672,"body":"space where you can read non-verbal signals with faces,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1485.672,"endTime":1490.031,"body":"and it's not just, an unseen person beneath an avatar that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1490.031,"endTime":1494.351,"body":"you're trying to reach with the gospel or convince of the truth"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1494.351,"endTime":1496.471,"body":"of Christianity. So"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1497.111,"endTime":1499.652,"body":"yeah, I k- I mean, I know, Sean, I know you do a lot of work on"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1499.652,"endTime":1502.811,"body":"YouTube, and like, you're someone who is an exemplar of,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1502.811,"endTime":1508.051,"body":"like, using, a new media form in a way that is bringing good kind"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1508.051,"endTime":1511.891,"body":"of gospel, evangelistic content to that space, and there's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1511.891,"endTime":1514.83,"body":"a lot of great examples of that happening. But I do think there"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1514.83,"endTime":1520.291,"body":"are limits to that, and, I think God uses that stuff, but, at the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1520.291,"endTime":1524.031,"body":"end of the day, we also wanna get people incarnationally"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1524.031,"endTime":1527.871,"body":"plugged into churches. So the move, at some point, has to go"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1527.871,"endTime":1530.121,"body":"offline, right? We have to get people,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1531.241,"endTime":1534.351,"body":"plugged into real embodied churches because the life of a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1534.351,"endTime":1538.771,"body":"disciple of Jesus can't exist just only in virtual space on"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1538.771,"endTime":1541.811,"body":"social media. So we can meet people there, we can try to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1541.811,"endTime":1547.071,"body":"bring apologetics and evangelism and good, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1547.071,"endTime":1550.771,"body":"theologically rich content into those spaces. It's what I do,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1550.771,"endTime":1553.451,"body":"it's what The Gospel Coalition does, so I believe there's a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1553.451,"endTime":1557.211,"body":"value in it, obviously. But I think at some point, the"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1557.211,"endTime":1563.371,"body":"pipeline has to be move people into real embodied relationship,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1563.371,"endTime":1567.351,"body":"because I think that's where the sweet sauce of Christian life"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1567.351,"endTime":1569.711,"body":"happens, and I think,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1570.611,"endTime":1574.192,"body":"God uses technology to kind of bring people into the funnel, if"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1574.192,"endTime":1578.83,"body":"you will. But, ultimately, we wanna get people,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1578.83,"endTime":1582.451,"body":"face-to-face and shoulder-to-shoulder and in"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1582.451,"endTime":1587.111,"body":"a, in an environment where they can be fully known and seen and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1587.111,"endTime":1588.291,"body":"discipled,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1589.25,"endTime":1591.991,"body":"without kind of the illusions and the,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1593.511,"endTime":1597.011,"body":"yeah, just the ways that we can kind of manipulate ourselves and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1597.011,"endTime":1598.571,"body":"things online."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1598.571,"endTime":1600.371,"body":"So you have a chapter towards the end of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1600.371,"endTime":1605.172,"body":"book on staying sane in an overstimulated age. This could"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1605.172,"endTime":1609.251,"body":"be a series of podcasts in itself, but maybe give us a few"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1609.251,"endTime":1614.271,"body":"points to stay sane and how this might apply to parents."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1614.271,"endTime":1616.672,"body":"Yeah, so, that chapter, I was really"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1617.311,"endTime":1620.132,"body":"getting at something that Neil Postman talked about in Amusing"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1620.132,"endTime":1623.271,"body":"Ourselves to Death, which is how we have this really"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1623.271,"endTime":1627.871,"body":"out-of-balance ratio of information and action, and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1627.871,"endTime":1631.652,"body":"that will make you crazy, and, it is making us crazy in"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1631.652,"endTime":1635.371,"body":"today's world, where we-- we're overstimulated with information"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1635.371,"endTime":1638.001,"body":"that's coming across our feeds. It-- we're watching it on"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1638.791,"endTime":1644.031,"body":"the news, YouTube, and yet very little of the information is"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1644.031,"endTime":1647.571,"body":"something that we can channel into action, w- and we're, we're"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1647.571,"endTime":1651.851,"body":"created to actually, like, have a pretty even ratio, Postman"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1651.851,"endTime":1655.971,"body":"argued, and I think he's right. We're-- we need to have a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1655.971,"endTime":1659.951,"body":"fairly even ratio of information that comes into our heads and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1659.951,"endTime":1664.531,"body":"action we can then take in our lives in a real way. And so"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1665.271,"endTime":1667.511,"body":"it makes us insane when we have"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1668.351,"endTime":1671.551,"body":"a huge amount of information coming into our brains, but very"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1671.551,"endTime":1672.991,"body":"little of it is actionable. So"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1673.791,"endTime":1677.491,"body":"one simple solution, I think, for all of us to become more"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1677.491,"endTime":1679.33,"body":"sane in this world is just to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1680.291,"endTime":1685.271,"body":"try to do what we can to reduce the amount of unactionable"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1685.271,"endTime":1688.391,"body":"information that we consume on any given day. So"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1688.991,"endTime":1693.851,"body":"kind of endless scrolling on social media, you know, hours of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1693.851,"endTime":1696.731,"body":"consuming news, whatever, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1697.771,"endTime":1701.672,"body":"rein that in. Like, do as little as you can get away with and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1701.672,"endTime":1705.011,"body":"focus on, like, spending your informational,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1705.771,"endTime":1709.38,"body":"energy in areas where it has more relevance to"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1709.951,"endTime":1713.33,"body":"your life. So consume information that you can like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1713.33,"endTime":1718.09,"body":"then take action on, whether it's like if you're in ministry"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1718.09,"endTime":1719.161,"body":"and you know, well,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1719.951,"endTime":1722.611,"body":"there's plenty of information on the Gospel Coalition website or"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1722.611,"endTime":1724.932,"body":"other places that can, that can, that can be actionable"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1724.932,"endTime":1728.771,"body":"information for you. If you're a parent and you're, you're"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1728.771,"endTime":1732.192,"body":"needing help figuring out some dynamic of parenting, you know,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1732.192,"endTime":1736.411,"body":"that-- the information online in that genre can be useful for you"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1736.411,"endTime":1738.111,"body":"because it's, it's actually actionable"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1738.811,"endTime":1741.711,"body":"information. So that's one thing you could do, is just kind of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1741.711,"endTime":1746.231,"body":"audit your information intake and try to make it,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1746.771,"endTime":1749.811,"body":"lower in the, like, trivial information that's like, has"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1749.811,"endTime":1752.59,"body":"nothing to do with my life, and I could never take any"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1752.59,"endTime":1753.652,"body":"meaningful action on this,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1754.291,"endTime":1758.951,"body":"and heavier on pertinent information that is immediately,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1759.672,"endTime":1760.811,"body":"or eventually"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1761.33,"endTime":1766.33,"body":"actionable in my life. I think another thing that is helpful,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1766.33,"endTime":1768.911,"body":"and I'll just end with this, just to go back to a theme I've"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1768.911,"endTime":1771.271,"body":"been kinda harping on this whole interview, is"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1772.172,"endTime":1774.451,"body":"spend more of your life,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1775.351,"endTime":1778.791,"body":"offline. You know, [chuckles] imagine that! Imagine that as a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1778.791,"endTime":1784.291,"body":"solution to our mental health woes in the digital age. Carve"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1784.291,"endTime":1787.932,"body":"out time in your week, in your day, where you intentionally"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1787.932,"endTime":1791.891,"body":"aren't around screens, and you're going on a walk in your"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1791.891,"endTime":1795.811,"body":"neighborhood with your family or your spouse, unmediated, without"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1795.811,"endTime":1797.321,"body":"any technology."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1798.152,"endTime":1801.391,"body":"Spend time just sitting in your backyard, observing God's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1801.391,"endTime":1805.192,"body":"creation, and that will do wonders. Speaking from"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1805.192,"endTime":1808.471,"body":"personal experience, that will do wonders for your stress and"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1808.471,"endTime":1813.031,"body":"anxiety and just even giving your brain a break, to go back"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1813.031,"endTime":1815.791,"body":"to the brain science piece of this- ... Of all this. Like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1816.59,"endTime":1820.932,"body":"s- what's lost in the digital age is kind of open time for"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1820.932,"endTime":1824.672,"body":"your brain to actually do that synthesizing work and to start"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1824.672,"endTime":1826.201,"body":"to make connections."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1826.891,"endTime":1830.195,"body":"There's a--... An author who I really like, Christine Rosen,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1830.195,"endTime":1832.525,"body":"who has a new book out on,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1833.435,"endTime":1836.135,"body":"kind of the death of embodiment. And one of the things she talks"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1836.135,"endTime":1840.375,"body":"about is how daydreaming is becoming a endangered species."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1840.375,"endTime":1843.435,"body":"We don't, we don't have time to daydream because we just fill"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1843.435,"endTime":1849.015,"body":"all of our- ... Moments of open time with content and screens."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1849.015,"endTime":1849.976,"body":"But there's a real,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1850.775,"endTime":1853.195,"body":"there's real value in daydreaming and just seeing"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1853.994,"endTime":1857.675,"body":"l- where your mind goes when it has space to just sit and be"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1857.675,"endTime":1861.435,"body":"still and wander. And I think it, not only does it, is it good"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1861.435,"endTime":1865.795,"body":"for your brain to kind of catch up with all the inputs that it's"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1865.795,"endTime":1866.734,"body":"st- trying to kind of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1867.415,"endTime":1871.695,"body":"sort through, but also for your soul to just kind of have some"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1871.695,"endTime":1875.895,"body":"breathing room and to not be constantly stressing about what"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1875.895,"endTime":1880.336,"body":"you just saw on TikTok or Twitter or a headline on some"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1880.336,"endTime":1884.056,"body":"news website or whatever. So, and I think just embodied"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1884.056,"endTime":1885.645,"body":"experience is more"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1886.596,"endTime":1890.515,"body":"grounding. You know, sometimes when I'm stressed, and, like,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1890.515,"endTime":1893.675,"body":"what's happening in the world, what I'm seeing on social media"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1893.675,"endTime":1897.675,"body":"is, like, causing me some anxiety, like, I find that just,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1897.675,"endTime":1900.455,"body":"like, going outside in the backyard and playing with my"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1900.455,"endTime":1904.994,"body":"kids and having, like, just a simple, like, experience of,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1904.994,"endTime":1905.895,"body":"like, this is"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1906.476,"endTime":1907.806,"body":"what life is about. M-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1908.515,"endTime":1911.476,"body":"so much more important [chuckles] in a sense than"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1911.476,"endTime":1914.775,"body":"what's happening in Washington, DC, with politics right now, or"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1914.775,"endTime":1919.875,"body":"what's happening with whatever, is what's happening here with me"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1919.875,"endTime":1921.945,"body":"communing with my sons, playing"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1922.455,"endTime":1925.635,"body":"baseball or whatever the case may be, in the backyard. And"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1925.635,"endTime":1928.795,"body":"it's a simple truth, right? Like, God created us as embodied"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1928.795,"endTime":1932.734,"body":"beings to live and to be faithful in small"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1933.635,"endTime":1937.295,"body":"spheres of influence- the home, the family, the neighborhood,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1937.295,"endTime":1940.755,"body":"the church. And I think we need to, we need to kind of"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1940.755,"endTime":1946.056,"body":"re-embrace that value of kind of local faithfulness- ... In a"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1946.056,"endTime":1946.525,"body":"world that"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1947.596,"endTime":1949.715,"body":"maybe calls us, beckons us to be"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1950.415,"endTime":1953.775,"body":"spending our passion and our interests and our energies on"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1953.775,"endTime":1955.855,"body":"things that are far away from us and that are"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1956.455,"endTime":1961.395,"body":"pseudo events happening on Twitter or, you know, far-flung"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1961.395,"endTime":1964.775,"body":"controversies that are erupting on social media and that will"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1964.775,"endTime":1969.515,"body":"die off, you know, within 24 hours, and no one will remember."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1969.515,"endTime":1972.576,"body":"That is a waste of your time, and it's gonna make you anxious,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1972.576,"endTime":1973.096,"body":"and it's gonna"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1974.275,"endTime":1977.836,"body":"[inhales] cause mental stress. But committing to the things"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1977.836,"endTime":1981.155,"body":"right in front of you that God has placed in your path to,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1981.155,"endTime":1985.175,"body":"like, to be faithful in, that's where you're gonna be most used"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1985.175,"endTime":1987.036,"body":"by God, and it's where you're gonna find the most"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1987.635,"endTime":1990.885,"body":"flourishing in every sense, I believe. So I'll end there,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1991.795,"endTime":1994.076,"body":"and just call people to live a little bit more of a local,"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":1994.076,"endTime":1998.175,"body":"embodied experience in a world of digital disembodiment."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1998.175,"endTime":2000.255,"body":"Well, that's a great call, and I think one of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2000.255,"endTime":2002.695,"body":"the strengths of your book is you do a few things, is you just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2002.695,"endTime":2006.295,"body":"invite us to reflect on things differently. Scott and I did a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2006.295,"endTime":2010.875,"body":"show a while ago on just how would Jesus comment on social"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2010.875,"endTime":2011.875,"body":"media?"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":2011.875,"endTime":2011.994,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2011.994,"endTime":2014.215,"body":"Would he comment on [chuckles] social media? What"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2014.215,"endTime":2015.105,"body":"does it look like-"},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":2015.105,"endTime":2015.224,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2015.224,"endTime":2015.994,"body":"... For a Christian"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2016.596,"endTime":2021.096,"body":"to do this? What's a theology of screens and smartphones? And we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2021.096,"endTime":2024.435,"body":"don't think about that. We just take our script from the world."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2024.435,"endTime":2027.476,"body":"So you and the contributors are just asking the right questions,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2027.476,"endTime":2031.036,"body":"pushing back, bringing clarity, and then giving some biblical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2031.036,"endTime":2034.775,"body":"wisdom to live that out today. So I thoroughly enjoy it. Again,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2034.775,"endTime":2037.195,"body":"it's called Scrolling Ourselves to Death,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2037.855,"endTime":2041.655,"body":"and, it's edited by Brett McCracken, our guest today."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2041.655,"endTime":2043.056,"body":"Brett, thanks so much for coming on."},{"speaker":"Brett McCracken","startTime":2043.056,"endTime":2044.185,"body":"Thanks so much, guys."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2044.185,"endTime":2046.234,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2046.234,"endTime":2048.175,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2048.755,"endTime":2052.976,"body":"and Culture. We have programs online and in person, Christian"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2052.976,"endTime":2057.695,"body":"apologetics, spiritual formation, Bible, theology,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2057.695,"endTime":2060.275,"body":"marriage and family, so much more. We'd love to have you join"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2060.275,"endTime":2064.576,"body":"us in Southern California or, of course, online. Please keep your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2064.576,"endTime":2067.434,"body":"comments and questions coming. You can email us at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2067.434,"endTime":2072.536,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. And please consider giving"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2072.536,"endTime":2076.934,"body":"us a rating on your podcast app. Seriously, every one helps. Of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2076.934,"endTime":2081.295,"body":"course, we'd prefer five stars, but just an honest review helps"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2081.295,"endTime":2085.074,"body":"get the word out. Thanks for listening, and remember, think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2085.074,"endTime":2095.016,"body":"biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}