{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.639,"body":"[upbeat music] What's a business for? And why"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.639,"endTime":6.98,"body":"is there skepticism about business among younger"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":6.98,"endTime":9.859,"body":"generations today? And what do we say to the notion that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":9.859,"endTime":13.099,"body":"business is based on greed, it creates consumerism, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":13.099,"endTime":16.46,"body":"contributes to growing economic inequality? We'll answer these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.46,"endTime":18.739,"body":"questions and more with our guest, Dr. Jim Otteson,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":18.739,"endTime":21.839,"body":"Professor of Business Ethics at Notre Dame. I'm your host, Scott"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":21.839,"endTime":23.879,"body":"Rae, and this is Think Biblically from Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":23.879,"endTime":27.28,"body":"Theology at Biola University. Jim, welcome. Really great to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":27.28,"endTime":29.859,"body":"have you with us. Appreciate you taking the time to do this."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":29.859,"endTime":31.339,"body":"Thank you very much. It's my pleasure to be"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":31.339,"endTime":32.46,"body":"with you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":32.46,"endTime":34.32,"body":"All right, so what do you... Why do you think there"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":34.32,"endTime":37.5,"body":"is such skepticism about business being a force for good"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":37.5,"endTime":39.28,"body":"in the world today, especially among younger"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":39.84,"endTime":42.88,"body":"generations? This seems to be especially true, or the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":42.88,"endTime":45.5,"body":"perception is especially true of entrepreneurs-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":45.5,"endTime":45.509,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":45.509,"endTime":47.079,"body":"... Who are widely seen as one to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":47.799,"endTime":52.64,"body":"create a product, get in, make a bag of money, and get out and do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":52.64,"endTime":53.56,"body":"something else."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":53.56,"endTime":55.359,"body":"It's a good question, and it's a perennial"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":55.359,"endTime":58.28,"body":"question. It's one that keeps coming back and coming up. And I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":58.28,"endTime":61.119,"body":"think, to be fair, you know, there are entrepreneurs and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":61.119,"endTime":63.859,"body":"business people for whom that is the motivation. They wanna get"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":63.859,"endTime":67.28,"body":"in, make their quick buck, and get out. And I think that's"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":67.28,"endTime":70.42,"body":"always been the case. But I think there's more to the reason"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":70.42,"endTime":73.06,"body":"why so many people are, especially young people, as you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":73.06,"endTime":76.799,"body":"say, are skeptical of business and skeptical of, a search for"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":76.799,"endTime":80.579,"body":"profit in business. I think there's more to it than just the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":80.579,"endTime":82.799,"body":"existence of some people who wanna make a quick buck."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":83.68,"endTime":86.739,"body":"Part of the reason, I think, is that for many young people,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":86.739,"endTime":90.18,"body":"especially, you know, they, live in a world, we live"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":90.18,"endTime":93.579,"body":"in a time when there's more wealth in the world total than"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":93.579,"endTime":95.78,"body":"there has ever been in human history."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":96.379,"endTime":99.819,"body":"And I think a lot of people enjoy such a level of wealth,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":99.819,"endTime":102.5,"body":"especially when you think of it in a historical context,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":103.2,"endTime":107.239,"body":"that they don't realize how bad things were before, how poor"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":107.239,"endTime":110.739,"body":"people were before, and it has afforded them a certain kind of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":110.739,"endTime":113.4,"body":"luxury, and the luxury is they don't have to think very hard"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":113.4,"endTime":113.76,"body":"about"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":114.459,"endTime":117.459,"body":"what are the institutions required to enable people to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":117.459,"endTime":121.06,"body":"create the goods and services that we enjoy. And so part of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":121.06,"endTime":125.12,"body":"that leads to, I think, a sort of zero-sum view of the world."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":125.12,"endTime":129.479,"body":"And a zero-sum view of the world is when, is the idea that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":129.479,"endTime":132.62,"body":"is appropriate in some contexts. So if the Yankees are playing"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":132.62,"endTime":136.259,"body":"the Red Sox in baseball, well, one team wins and the other one"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":136.259,"endTime":138.15,"body":"loses. So you can't have a,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":138.9,"endTime":141.159,"body":"a situation where both of them win."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":141.68,"endTime":144.84,"body":"And that's true in many games and other kinds of, scenarios,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":144.84,"endTime":148.58,"body":"but in, a market economy, you can and should have a s-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":149.12,"endTime":153.02,"body":"a transaction exchange in which both sides profit, both"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":153.02,"endTime":156.599,"body":"sides benefit. And I think a lot of people don't see that. They"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":156.599,"endTime":159.379,"body":"think that if you're successful in business, or if any person is"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":159.379,"endTime":161.919,"body":"successful in business, it will have come at the expense of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":161.919,"endTime":162.479,"body":"someone else,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":163.08,"endTime":166.34,"body":"rather than benefiting yourself by benefiting, or at the same"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":166.34,"endTime":168.06,"body":"time as benefiting someone else."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":168.06,"endTime":170.68,"body":"All right. That, that's really helpful, and I can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":170.68,"endTime":171.439,"body":"see that the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":172.4,"endTime":173.259,"body":"it's a, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":173.86,"endTime":176.979,"body":"entrepreneurs tend to be the ones who have, seem to have a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":176.979,"endTime":177.879,"body":"target on their back"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":178.439,"endTime":179.699,"body":"most often."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":179.699,"endTime":179.829,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":179.829,"endTime":181.879,"body":"Yet, I think people don't see that how hard"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":181.879,"endTime":183.15,"body":"entrepreneurs work- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":183.15,"endTime":183.639,"body":"[chuckles] Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":183.639,"endTime":186.379,"body":"... For often for many years, and how, and what a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":186.379,"endTime":189.139,"body":"high percentage of entrepreneurial enterprises"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":189.139,"endTime":190.03,"body":"actually fail."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":190.03,"endTime":192.5,"body":"I think that's exactly right, and, people d-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":192.5,"endTime":195.319,"body":"people don't see that. You see the one or two successes, you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":195.319,"endTime":198.28,"body":"don't see the hundreds, maybe thousands of failures."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":198.84,"endTime":200.8,"body":"You know, something interesting, other, something else that's"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":200.8,"endTime":203.08,"body":"interesting to note in this context is,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":204.139,"endTime":207.4,"body":"a little while ago, a Nobel Prize-winning economist named"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":207.4,"endTime":211.28,"body":"Nordhaus, William Nordhaus, tried to estimate, what"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":211.28,"endTime":214.219,"body":"proportion of the value that entrepreneurs create in the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":214.219,"endTime":218.479,"body":"world do they themselves capture? So if you have a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":218.479,"endTime":221.199,"body":"successful idea, you come up with an innovation, you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":221.199,"endTime":223.939,"body":"introduce it to the market, people like it, and you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":223.939,"endTime":226.349,"body":"know... Think of a Steve Jobs or maybe today-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":226.349,"endTime":226.349,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":226.349,"endTime":229.5,"body":"... An Elon Musk or something. What proportion of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":229.5,"endTime":233.56,"body":"the total amount of value that's created do they themselves get?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":233.56,"endTime":236.639,"body":"And looking at it over a series of decades, he estimated that it"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":236.639,"endTime":238.159,"body":"was just two point two percent."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":238.159,"endTime":238.78,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":238.78,"endTime":239.02,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":239.02,"endTime":239.669,"body":"That, that low?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":239.669,"endTime":243.12,"body":"That low. So the other ninety-seven point eight"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":243.12,"endTime":246.199,"body":"percent goes to the rest of us. We enjoy it. So if you think"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":246.199,"endTime":248.979,"body":"about, you know, you might think, \"Well, gosh, Steve Jobs"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":248.979,"endTime":251.96,"body":"was certainly worth a lot of money when he died.\" but"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":251.96,"endTime":254.979,"body":"whatever that number was, that only represents two point two"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":254.979,"endTime":257.92,"body":"percent of the total value he created for the world, and the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":257.92,"endTime":260.379,"body":"rest of us are the beneficiaries of that. But we don't see it, we"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":260.379,"endTime":263.459,"body":"don't realize it. We see the two point two percent concentrated"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":263.459,"endTime":266.36,"body":"in one person. You don't see the millions, hundreds of millions,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":266.36,"endTime":269.819,"body":"maybe billions of people who benefit from iPhones or Apple"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":269.819,"endTime":273.04,"body":"products or from Tesla vehicles or something like that. We don't"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":273.04,"endTime":275.92,"body":"see it. We don't realize it. We just see that little"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":275.92,"endTime":278.899,"body":"bit concentrated. And I think that's part of the reason why"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":278.899,"endTime":282.18,"body":"people think, \"Well, you know, why do they have so much?\" Well,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":282.18,"endTime":284.759,"body":"the other side of that equation is, well, how much are the rest"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":284.759,"endTime":286.04,"body":"of us benefiting from it?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":286.04,"endTime":287.459,"body":"Yeah, the, and in fact, the wealth that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":287.459,"endTime":288.66,"body":"they've created-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":288.66,"endTime":288.92,"body":"Exactly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":288.92,"endTime":289.74,"body":"... For other people."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":289.74,"endTime":289.779,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":289.779,"endTime":292.12,"body":"I mean, how many... We- the term we've just-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":292.12,"endTime":294.86,"body":"we've used, heard, for many years is the Microsoft"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":294.86,"endTime":295.759,"body":"millionaires."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":295.759,"endTime":296.12,"body":"Oh, yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":296.12,"endTime":297.129,"body":"Now, how many-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":297.129,"endTime":297.709,"body":"How many of them are, became millions?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":297.709,"endTime":298.759,"body":"Have been spawned-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":298.759,"endTime":299.019,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":299.019,"endTime":303.139,"body":"... Just by, you know, that initial effort, from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":303.139,"endTime":306.439,"body":"Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and a hand, a small handful of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":306.439,"endTime":306.899,"body":"others-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":306.899,"endTime":307.279,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":307.279,"endTime":309.22,"body":"... That just created, have created so much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":309.22,"endTime":312.319,"body":"value. And I think you're, you're right about the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":312.319,"endTime":315.899,"body":"zero-sum arrangement. The size of the pie is not fixed."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":315.899,"endTime":318.1,"body":"No, [chuckles] it, we want it to grow, and it does"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":318.1,"endTime":318.129,"body":"grow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":318.129,"endTime":320.18,"body":"In fact, I would, I would argue that anytime"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":320.18,"endTime":323.36,"body":"somebody makes a profit, wealth is created, and the size of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":323.36,"endTime":324.819,"body":"pie actually grows."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":324.819,"endTime":326.8,"body":"Exactly. And in fact, we, that's what we've"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":326.8,"endTime":331.459,"body":"seen. You know, before around 1800 or so, for all of human"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":331.459,"endTime":334.939,"body":"history before that, there was effectively no, very little"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":334.939,"endTime":337.18,"body":"wealth in the world. Human beings lived on something like"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":337.18,"endTime":341.399,"body":"two or three dollars per person per day, which is, in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":341.399,"endTime":344.1,"body":"contemporary dollars, which is not a lot. I mean, imagine"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":344.1,"endTime":346.24,"body":"trying to live on three dollars a day for everything- food,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":346.24,"endTime":349.819,"body":"clothing, shelter, sending your kids to college, everything. But"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":349.819,"endTime":352.22,"body":"that was the, that was the standard. That was the common"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":352.22,"endTime":354.519,"body":"standard throughout human history, and it's only in the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":354.519,"endTime":357.42,"body":"last couple hundred years that-... Things have changed,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":357.42,"endTime":361.1,"body":"and now risen to a level where, the vast majority, not"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":361.1,"endTime":364.24,"body":"everybody, but the vast majority, you know, over seven"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":364.24,"endTime":366.639,"body":"billion of the eight billion people on the planet are above"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":366.639,"endTime":369.56,"body":"that level now. Now, they're not at the same level, so"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":370.24,"endTime":372.5,"body":"just about everybody's increasing, not to the same"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":372.5,"endTime":376.3,"body":"extent, not to the same level. But the prosperity, the positive"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":376.3,"endTime":379.199,"body":"sum prosperity that you're talking about, has, generated"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":379.199,"endTime":382.339,"body":"tremendous benefits that, again, I think people don't realize."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":382.339,"endTime":383.569,"body":"They think it's always been like this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":383.569,"endTime":384.0,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":384.0,"endTime":385.48,"body":"It hasn't always been like this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":385.48,"endTime":388.8,"body":"So here, in, maybe this is true in your business"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":388.8,"endTime":392.259,"body":"school at Notre Dame, but in my experience, in most business"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":392.259,"endTime":394.92,"body":"schools, the answer to the question, \"What's a business"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":394.92,"endTime":399.279,"body":"for?\" ... Is seen as almost self-evident, and simply to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":399.279,"endTime":403.0,"body":"maximize shareholder wealth. How would, how would you answer that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":403.0,"endTime":405.48,"body":"question- What's a business for?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":405.48,"endTime":408.12,"body":"G- thank you for asking me that. So, I have a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":408.12,"endTime":409.329,"body":"different view about that."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":409.92,"endTime":412.759,"body":"So, you know, maximizing shareholder wealth or increasing"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":412.759,"endTime":416.759,"body":"shareholder wealth, or maybe more generally, seeking profit,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":416.759,"endTime":420.3,"body":"I see those not as the goal, but as tools to reach the goals."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":420.3,"endTime":423.779,"body":"These are indicators, measurements. Of all the things"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":423.779,"endTime":425.8,"body":"you could do, you start a business, and there are, you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":425.8,"endTime":428.759,"body":"know, indefinitely many things you could do. You have some s-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":428.759,"endTime":433.399,"body":"you have scarce resources of time, of money, of, talent."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":433.399,"endTime":435.98,"body":"Where do you allocate it? Where do you put, and where do you put"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":435.98,"endTime":439.079,"body":"your resources towards? There are lots of decisions to be"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":439.079,"endTime":441.379,"body":"made. How do you know you're making the right decision, that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":441.379,"endTime":444.22,"body":"this is the best use of my time or our time, or the best use of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":444.22,"endTime":448.47,"body":"our resources? Well, profit or increasing, shareholder wealth,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":448.47,"endTime":451.12,"body":"or just getting shareholders, so and getting investment, capital"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":451.12,"endTime":453.939,"body":"being invested in you, are indicators that you're doing"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":453.939,"endTime":456.839,"body":"something right. That... And what I'm, when I mean-- when I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":456.839,"endTime":458.18,"body":"say you're doing something right, what that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":458.74,"endTime":461.48,"body":"indicates, it's not a perfect indicator, but it gives you a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":461.48,"endTime":465.62,"body":"signal that what you're doing is providing some value to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":465.62,"endTime":468.48,"body":"somebody else. Because if somebody's investing in you,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":468.48,"endTime":471.12,"body":"that means they think there's, there's some value there."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":471.699,"endTime":474.259,"body":"So those are good indicators. They're good signals. But what I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":474.259,"endTime":476.639,"body":"would say is those themselves aren't the purpose of what"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":476.639,"endTime":478.899,"body":"you're doing. The purpose of what you're doing is to create"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":478.899,"endTime":482.319,"body":"some good in the world. So what's a business for? Well,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":482.319,"endTime":484.819,"body":"bus- you know, there are lots of... There are thirty million"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":484.819,"endTime":487.149,"body":"businesses in the United States. They do a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":487.149,"endTime":489.779,"body":"things. They're creating different products. They're"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":489.779,"endTime":492.779,"body":"creating different services. Many of them, maybe most of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":492.779,"endTime":496.699,"body":"them, are looking to solve some kind of problem that human"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":496.699,"endTime":500.339,"body":"beings face or to alleviate some stress or v- you know, some"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":500.339,"endTime":503.079,"body":"suffering in some way or rather make people's lives even"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":503.079,"endTime":504.79,"body":"marginally better off."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":505.319,"endTime":510.42,"body":"But I would say that that value or that good of creating some"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":510.42,"endTime":513.538,"body":"benefit in human beings' lives, that's the purpose of business."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":514.24,"endTime":515.58,"body":"Making a profit,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":516.12,"endTime":519.139,"body":"creating a return for shareholders, those are good"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":519.139,"endTime":521.679,"body":"indicators, and they're great things to be able to do, but"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":521.679,"endTime":524.1,"body":"they aren't themselves the purpose. They are the tools that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":524.1,"endTime":525.389,"body":"enable you to serve the other,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":525.899,"endTime":529.639,"body":"the final purpose, which is actually creating some"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":529.639,"endTime":530.74,"body":"benefit in people's lives."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":531.379,"endTime":534.74,"body":"Yeah. Now, you use the term honorable business-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":534.74,"endTime":535.208,"body":"I do, yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":535.208,"endTime":537.1,"body":"... To describe, I think, the alloc-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":537.889,"endTime":541.47,"body":"ultimately, how we allocate those re- those resources."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":542.36,"endTime":545.399,"body":"And I think the way you just described it, profit is an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":545.399,"endTime":547.44,"body":"indicator, that you are being efficient-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":548.019,"endTime":548.34,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":548.34,"endTime":550.7,"body":"... But not necessarily being effective."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":550.7,"endTime":551.36,"body":"Oh, mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":551.36,"endTime":553.399,"body":"And so I wanna, I wanna make that distinction, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":553.399,"endTime":555.82,"body":"it seems to me you use the term honorable business to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":555.82,"endTime":558.72,"body":"distinguish between those two things."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":558.72,"endTime":559.36,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":559.36,"endTime":560.98,"body":"What, what do you mean by the term?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":560.98,"endTime":564.0,"body":"Yeah, so, you know, the term arose from"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":564.0,"endTime":568.0,"body":"this common, idea that people say, and we hear all the time,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":568.0,"endTime":568.12,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":568.659,"endTime":572.179,"body":"businesses or business people should give back to society. So"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":572.179,"endTime":573.799,"body":"that's a very commonly used phrase. I'm sure you've heard"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":573.799,"endTime":575.539,"body":"it. You should give back."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":575.539,"endTime":577.12,"body":"It drives me nuts, actually. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":577.12,"endTime":578.22,"body":"Okay, well,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":578.779,"endTime":581.1,"body":"you know, and business people themselves often use that term,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":581.1,"endTime":581.269,"body":"too."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":581.269,"endTime":581.279,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":581.279,"endTime":583.019,"body":"They say, \"Oh, I'm gonna give back,\" and at least"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":583.019,"endTime":585.419,"body":"some of, you know, business students will say, or, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":585.419,"endTime":588.139,"body":"I hear them say things like, \"Well, I'm gonna go into, say,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":588.139,"endTime":590.779,"body":"private equity, and I'm gonna make my millions, and then, and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":590.779,"endTime":593.2,"body":"then at some point, when I turn fifty or whatever, I'm gonna--"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":593.2,"endTime":596.5,"body":"then I'm gonna give back to society.\" but that phrase, \"give"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":596.5,"endTime":599.679,"body":"back,\" is an interesting phrase. You, you... People don't say..."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":599.679,"endTime":603.279,"body":"Contrast it with people, with the phrase \"give.\" People don't"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":603.279,"endTime":605.6,"body":"say that businesses should give or business people should give."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":605.6,"endTime":609.299,"body":"They say they should give back, as if you did something wrong,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":609.299,"endTime":609.84,"body":"and you now-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":609.84,"endTime":609.929,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":609.929,"endTime":612.298,"body":"... Need to atone for it, like it's a sin."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":612.84,"endTime":615.279,"body":"You know, so is it the case that people who say you should give"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":615.279,"endTime":618.039,"body":"back, are they thinking that, well, if you were successful in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":618.039,"endTime":621.22,"body":"business, I may not know exactly what you did wrong, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":621.22,"endTime":623.399,"body":"pretty sure you did something wrong, so you're gonna have to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":623.399,"endTime":624.09,"body":"atone for it?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":624.62,"endTime":627.48,"body":"And I think the answer is yes. A lot of people do think that."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":628.2,"endTime":631.559,"body":"But when I talk of it, about honorable business, what I mean"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":631.559,"endTime":634.96,"body":"by that is business that you engage in that has value in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":634.96,"endTime":639.36,"body":"itself, that's creating something good in itself, that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":639.36,"endTime":642.919,"body":"you don't need to atone for or make up for later,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":643.559,"endTime":648.179,"body":"that, yes, can benefit you, as, and your family, and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":648.179,"endTime":651.22,"body":"the people you care about, but at the same time,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":651.22,"endTime":654.24,"body":"simultaneously, is creating genuine value, what you think"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":654.24,"endTime":657.48,"body":"really is improving the lives of other people at the same time."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":657.48,"endTime":659.799,"body":"If you're engaging in business in such a way that you are"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":659.799,"endTime":662.5,"body":"creating value, not just genuine value, not just for yourself,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":662.5,"endTime":666.0,"body":"but for others at the same time, I think that's honorable."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":666.0,"endTime":668.559,"body":"Yeah, now, I think we could probably qualify"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":668.559,"endTime":670.22,"body":"the term creating value"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":671.179,"endTime":671.98,"body":"a bit-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":671.98,"endTime":672.279,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":672.279,"endTime":675.179,"body":"... Because, pornography actually is- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":675.179,"endTime":676.96,"body":"You know, one of the most profitable industries on the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":676.96,"endTime":677.74,"body":"planet."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":677.74,"endTime":677.98,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":677.98,"endTime":679.46,"body":"Yet I would argue that they're not,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":679.46,"endTime":682.059,"body":"[clears throat] that they're not really creating value."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":682.059,"endTime":683.149,"body":"They're generating a profit-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":683.149,"endTime":683.22,"body":"They're generating a profit"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":683.22,"endTime":684.46,"body":"... But that doesn't mean they're, they're"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":684.46,"endTime":687.559,"body":"creating value. Yeah, so, I would emphasize this term, and I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":687.559,"endTime":690.879,"body":"was a bit vague about it, genuine value. What I mean by"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":690.879,"endTime":694.48,"body":"that is, value that you, in your heart of hearts, that you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":694.48,"endTime":698.539,"body":"honestly believe is making another person's life better...."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":698.539,"endTime":700.279,"body":"Now there are big ways to do that, and there are small ways"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":700.279,"endTime":700.679,"body":"to do that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":700.679,"endTime":700.769,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":700.769,"endTime":702.08,"body":"There may be indefinitely many ways to do"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":702.08,"endTime":705.559,"body":"that, but there are some ways that clearly are not doing that."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":705.559,"endTime":708.679,"body":"And I would put pornography in that category. So yes, that's a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":708.679,"endTime":711.299,"body":"way to generate profit, but that's not a way to improve"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":711.299,"endTime":712.96,"body":"people's lives. So"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":713.5,"endTime":715.84,"body":"I would say, you know, and this is sort of a challenge I would"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":715.84,"endTime":718.34,"body":"give, I give to my students, or I give to business people or"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":718.34,"endTime":719.879,"body":"future business people,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":720.5,"endTime":725.019,"body":"if you're engaging in business, even if it's mutually voluntary,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":725.019,"endTime":728.029,"body":"so, you know, only adult, consenting adults are involved-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":728.029,"endTime":728.059,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":728.059,"endTime":729.46,"body":"Yes, of course, that's necessary."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.46,"endTime":729.549,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":730.659,"endTime":732.399,"body":"But that's not the end of the question. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":732.399,"endTime":734.399,"body":"You know, that's not the end of the conversation. The next part"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":734.399,"endTime":736.419,"body":"of the conver- I mean, that's necessary, but then the next"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":736.419,"endTime":739.84,"body":"question is, are you actually improving people's lives?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":740.379,"endTime":743.86,"body":"And there are many ways you could make a profit without"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":743.86,"endTime":746.5,"body":"actually improving people's lives, and I think that's where"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":746.5,"endTime":748.36,"body":"an honorable businessperson would say,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":748.908,"endTime":751.46,"body":"would, should be faced, you know, look themselves in the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":751.46,"endTime":753.2,"body":"mirror and say, \"You know, maybe there are some things where I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":753.2,"endTime":756.22,"body":"say, 'No, I'm not going to do that.' Even if I could make a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":756.22,"endTime":759.08,"body":"profit, maybe even more profit than I could make in some other"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":759.08,"endTime":759.279,"body":"way,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":759.84,"endTime":762.198,"body":"that's not, that's not benefiting human beings. That's"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":762.198,"endTime":766.09,"body":"not enabling them to realize their virtue and flourishing as-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":766.09,"endTime":766.11,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":766.11,"endTime":767.96,"body":"... Human creatures.\" And if you're not"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":767.96,"endTime":770.019,"body":"doing that, then I think you need to rethink what you're"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":770.019,"endTime":770.46,"body":"doing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":770.46,"endTime":772.299,"body":"Yeah, we try to take that maybe a step further"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":772.299,"endTime":776.019,"body":"theologically, and to say that an honest profit or an honorable"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":776.019,"endTime":778.86,"body":"business is one that it's actually fulfilling the dominion"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":778.86,"endTime":780.399,"body":"mandate from Genesis 1."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":780.399,"endTime":780.6,"body":"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":781.12,"endTime":781.48,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":781.48,"endTime":782.1,"body":"That, uh-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":782.1,"endTime":782.11,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":782.11,"endTime":784.1,"body":"... That God gave, and I, and I think, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":784.1,"endTime":786.2,"body":"fair to say that throughout the Scriptures,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":786.72,"endTime":790.299,"body":"God gave- God has given human beings the ability to unlock"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":790.299,"endTime":792.82,"body":"what God has embedded into creation-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":792.82,"endTime":793.12,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":793.12,"endTime":795.22,"body":"... And for the benefit of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":795.22,"endTime":797.139,"body":"common good. And you-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":797.139,"endTime":797.519,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":797.519,"endTime":798.879,"body":"... You reap, you reap a personal benefit from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":798.879,"endTime":801.72,"body":"that as well. And then there's nowhere in the Scripture that I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":801.72,"endTime":803.94,"body":"see that where anybody said there's something wrong with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":803.94,"endTime":806.879,"body":"that. The greed and self-interest are not the same"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":806.879,"endTime":807.7,"body":"thing."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":807.7,"endTime":810.259,"body":"Yeah, no, and, on the contrary, I think, I think"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":810.259,"endTime":814.639,"body":"the idea of human beings being creators, you know, they are"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":814.639,"endTime":816.559,"body":"created in the image and likeness of God-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":816.559,"endTime":816.57,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":816.57,"endTime":819.36,"body":"... As creators. God was a creator, we are, too."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":819.36,"endTime":822.86,"body":"God has given us materials with which to create, and the way I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":822.86,"endTime":826.938,"body":"think of it is, you know, we, each of us, as created in the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":826.938,"endTime":829.919,"body":"image and likeness of God, each of us created uniquely, you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":829.919,"endTime":834.1,"body":"know, we are unrepeatable souls. That means that there is some"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":834.1,"endTime":834.58,"body":"special"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":835.1,"endTime":838.74,"body":"and unique role that we, that each of us can individually play"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":838.74,"endTime":841.74,"body":"in the unfolding of God's providence. And so part of our"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":841.74,"endTime":844.659,"body":"calling is to figure out what that is and then do it."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":845.229,"endTime":848.559,"body":"And, creation, in one way, there are many ways to create, but"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":848.559,"endTime":851.519,"body":"creation in business is one way to do that. So I don't think"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":851.519,"endTime":853.32,"body":"there's any- not only is there not anything wrong with that, I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":853.32,"endTime":855.5,"body":"think that's, for many people, that's what you're called to do."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":855.5,"endTime":857.46,"body":"That's right. And I- yeah, and I think it's fair to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":857.46,"endTime":857.74,"body":"say"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":858.299,"endTime":858.49,"body":"that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":859.019,"endTime":861.96,"body":"even God Himself exhibited entrepreneurial traits-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":861.96,"endTime":862.179,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":862.179,"endTime":862.769,"body":"Oh, interesting, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":862.769,"endTime":863.36,"body":"... In creation,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":864.539,"endTime":867.399,"body":"because it was, it was initiative, and creativity, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":867.399,"endTime":870.519,"body":"innovation, and embedding His wisdom into the world-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":870.519,"endTime":870.98,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":870.98,"endTime":873.0,"body":"... And allowing, giving human beings the ability"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":873.0,"endTime":877.12,"body":"to unlock all of that. Now, you- let's be a little more specific"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":877.12,"endTime":877.32,"body":"here."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":877.32,"endTime":877.659,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":877.659,"endTime":881.179,"body":"What, what are the various goods, in a, in a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":881.179,"endTime":884.46,"body":"general sense, that business does? And I'm, and I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":884.46,"endTime":887.539,"body":"particularly interested in how Christian faith might inform"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":888.24,"endTime":889.649,"body":"the goods that business does."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":890.22,"endTime":894.039,"body":"Well, I think that the moral North Star for human"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":894.039,"endTime":897.159,"body":"beings generally, but also for people engaging in or"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":897.159,"endTime":901.72,"body":"interacting with business, is human dignity. So if you assume,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":901.72,"endTime":904.729,"body":"or if you believe, as I do, that human beings are created in the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":904.729,"endTime":908.059,"body":"image and likeness of God, they have a dignity as they are moral"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":908.059,"endTime":910.36,"body":"agents. They are free and responsible moral agents, and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":910.36,"endTime":912.7,"body":"that marks them out as being different from every other"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":912.7,"endTime":914.98,"body":"creature on Earth. There's n- maybe every other creature in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":914.98,"endTime":919.159,"body":"the universe, there's no creature like that. So the first"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":919.159,"endTime":923.6,"body":"step of anything is, respecting the moral agency of human"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":923.6,"endTime":927.0,"body":"beings, which is respecting their dignity. So what's the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":927.0,"endTime":929.94,"body":"good that business can do? I see it in two different categories."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":929.94,"endTime":931.97,"body":"One is the goods, with an S-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":931.97,"endTime":931.97,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":931.97,"endTime":934.22,"body":"... The goods and services we can create. So what"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":934.22,"endTime":936.98,"body":"are the things that I, that business or business people,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":936.98,"endTime":941.6,"body":"firms, can make or do that improve human beings' lives? So"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":941.6,"endTime":946.08,"body":"makes things easier, gives them, gives them an opportunity to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":946.08,"endTime":949.019,"body":"free their attention up so they can do o- they can, spend time"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":949.019,"endTime":951.399,"body":"and resources doing yet other things. So if you're, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":951.399,"endTime":953.48,"body":"providing food, clothing, and shelter, they can turn their"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":953.48,"endTime":956.58,"body":"attention to other things. So the actual m- goods and services"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":956.58,"endTime":960.62,"body":"are w- is one category, but the other category, I think that,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":960.62,"endTime":963.159,"body":"goes back to the question, or the discussion we d- had just a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":963.159,"endTime":964.039,"body":"minute ago, which is"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":964.62,"endTime":969.32,"body":"the unfolding and flourishing of each of our individual souls. So"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":969.32,"endTime":974.08,"body":"I think each of us has a unique package of abilities, talents,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":974.08,"endTime":977.1,"body":"skills, personalities, and we're all in our different"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":977.1,"endTime":982.74,"body":"circumstances as well. Part of figuring out what my role m- is"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":982.74,"endTime":984.98,"body":"in the unfolding of God's providence is"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":985.5,"endTime":989.86,"body":"using that, you know, exploring, developing, and using those"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":989.86,"endTime":993.259,"body":"skills and abilities to the best that I can, and business"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":993.259,"endTime":996.639,"body":"actually can summon those bill- those abilities and skills. So"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":996.639,"endTime":999.759,"body":"it can train you in things like paying attention to what other"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":999.759,"endTime":1002.779,"body":"people need, paying attention to other people's wants and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1002.779,"endTime":1004.48,"body":"abilities and their situation,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1005.059,"endTime":1007.659,"body":"being... And then also, things we tend not to think about"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1007.659,"endTime":1008.7,"body":"very much, like,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1009.279,"endTime":1013.379,"body":"being, diligent, working hard, being on time. These are"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1013.379,"endTime":1016.24,"body":"virtues, maybe, you know, small V virtues,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1016.799,"endTime":1020.539,"body":"frugality. You know, all of these things that business"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1020.539,"endTime":1024.16,"body":"trains us in, I think these are translatable into not just"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1024.16,"endTime":1026.72,"body":"developing our character, but also being good people to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1026.72,"endTime":1027.279,"body":"others,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1027.869,"endTime":1030.48,"body":"and enabling us to have good relations with other people."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1030.48,"endTime":1032.799,"body":"Well, and I'd ri- I'd rather hire those kind of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1032.799,"endTime":1033.789,"body":"people than-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1033.789,"endTime":1033.789,"body":"Oh, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1033.789,"endTime":1034.72,"body":"... Than the opposite. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1034.72,"endTime":1035.44,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1035.44,"endTime":1035.578,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1035.578,"endTime":1036.18,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1036.18,"endTime":1038.18,"body":"That's why we tell our business students that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1038.88,"endTime":1039.18,"body":"if you-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1039.74,"endTime":1042.859,"body":"we would rather hire people who are, who represent the fruit of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1042.859,"endTime":1045.839,"body":"the Spirit- ... As opposed to the deeds of the flesh."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1045.839,"endTime":1047.38,"body":"Yeah, that's very nicely put."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1047.38,"endTime":1049.339,"body":"In fact, those are the, those are the toxic people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1049.339,"endTime":1051.97,"body":"that we want to keep out of our organizations- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1051.97,"endTime":1051.97,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1051.97,"endTime":1053.599,"body":"... As best we can."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1054.339,"endTime":1058.14,"body":"Now, how do you address the objection to business often that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1058.14,"endTime":1061.96,"body":"it's based on greed? Because I think we- I think we rightly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1061.96,"endTime":1063.759,"body":"assume that greed's a vice."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1063.759,"endTime":1064.559,"body":"It is a vice, yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1064.559,"endTime":1068.019,"body":"And if-... If the, if the premise, if it's, if"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1068.019,"endTime":1071.099,"body":"the premise is true, that business is based on greed, or"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1071.099,"endTime":1074.119,"body":"market system is based on greed, then it's not hard to draw the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1074.119,"endTime":1077.138,"body":"conclusion that so- there's something morally wrong with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1077.138,"endTime":1077.819,"body":"this picture."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1077.819,"endTime":1078.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1078.539,"endTime":1080.2,"body":"So how would you respond to that?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1080.2,"endTime":1082.74,"body":"Yeah, I would say if that were true, that business"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1082.74,"endTime":1085.559,"body":"was based on greed, that would be an indictment of it. And"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1085.559,"endTime":1088.839,"body":"greed, yes, it's one of the seven deadly sins, so, it i--"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1088.839,"endTime":1092.519,"body":"and for a reason. We all seem to be susceptible to it. Just when"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1092.519,"endTime":1095.46,"body":"we, you know, if we think we've mastered it in one area, we find"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1095.46,"endTime":1098.819,"body":"we're indulging it in other areas. What I would say is not"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1098.819,"endTime":1102.48,"body":"that business is based on greed, but that business is an arena in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1102.48,"endTime":1106.079,"body":"which greedy people can act, or when which greed can come to the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1106.079,"endTime":1109.579,"body":"fore. So but I would say that's not true only in business."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1109.579,"endTime":1114.259,"body":"That's throughout human life. You can imagine a greedy friend"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1114.259,"endTime":1117.898,"body":"or a greedy coworker or a greedy colleague. So we can be greedy"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1117.898,"endTime":1122.46,"body":"in many different ways. What business, I would say, does,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1122.46,"endTime":1124.48,"body":"properly speaking, and maybe here I would say, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1124.48,"endTime":1127.799,"body":"honorable business, what this does summon from us is the idea"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1127.799,"endTime":1130.2,"body":"that we shouldn't be spending time thinking only about"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1130.2,"endTime":1134.159,"body":"ourselves, and in fact, success in a market economy almost"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1134.159,"endTime":1136.74,"body":"demands that you think not only about yourself, but you're"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1136.74,"endTime":1138.579,"body":"thinking about everybody else. To go back to your, what, your"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1138.579,"endTime":1141.319,"body":"point about entrepreneurs, you know, what is an entrepreneur"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1141.319,"endTime":1143.7,"body":"thinking about? You know, what keeps an entrepreneur up at"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1143.7,"endTime":1146.819,"body":"night? Well, it's your employees, and your, and your"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1146.819,"endTime":1149.378,"body":"suppliers, and the people you work with, and your customers"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1149.378,"endTime":1151.839,"body":"and potential customers. It's a million people other than"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1151.839,"endTime":1155.24,"body":"yourself, and if you're thinking only about yourself, well,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1155.24,"endTime":1157.138,"body":"you're gonna go out of business in a New York minute. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1157.138,"endTime":1160.4,"body":"So you have... So success in business can, in a market"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1160.4,"endTime":1164.138,"body":"economy, actually encourage you, maybe even despite yourself, I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1164.138,"endTime":1166.259,"body":"mean, we are fallen creatures, and we will still have those"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1166.259,"endTime":1170.779,"body":"temptations, but to spend a lot of serious time thinking about"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1170.779,"endTime":1173.119,"body":"other people, and so in that way, it can actually summon"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1173.119,"endTime":1176.539,"body":"some good aspects and combat some of the things like"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1176.539,"endTime":1179.94,"body":"greed, that we might be susceptible to just because of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1179.94,"endTime":1180.72,"body":"our fallen nature."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1180.72,"endTime":1183.099,"body":"No, that's a really good observation 'cause it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1183.099,"endTime":1184.359,"body":"sounds like you're suggesting that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1185.299,"endTime":1188.779,"body":"workplace interactions both require and nurture"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1189.299,"endTime":1191.019,"body":"a lo- a lot of really important virtues."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1191.019,"endTime":1192.96,"body":"I think they do, and I think it's underestimated"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1192.96,"endTime":1196.119,"body":"to... The ex- I mean, look, when you, when you think about, you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1196.119,"endTime":1198.138,"body":"know, in business ethics, if you teach business ethics, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1198.138,"endTime":1199.819,"body":"a lot of business ethics classes are sort of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1200.44,"endTime":1204.019,"body":"a series of, you know, of bad actors, kind of a murderer's-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1204.019,"endTime":1204.029,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1204.029,"endTime":1206.119,"body":"... Row of bad actors. You look at case studies"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1206.119,"endTime":1209.059,"body":"of, you know, Enron, and weren't those guys bad? They were"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1209.059,"endTime":1211.659,"body":"terrible, and Bernie Madoff, and he was terrible, and you sort of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1211.659,"endTime":1214.839,"body":"go through this list of people. But, yes, they, you know, they"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1214.839,"endTime":1217.339,"body":"bad, they did bad things, but there are bad actors in all"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1217.339,"endTime":1220.878,"body":"walks of human life, not only in business. And, you know, when we"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1220.878,"endTime":1224.019,"body":"focus on those couple of examples, what we forget are the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1224.019,"endTime":1227.43,"body":"literally millions of other examples of people engaging in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1227.43,"endTime":1229.48,"body":"honorable business, actually to-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1229.48,"endTime":1229.49,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1229.49,"endTime":1231.378,"body":"... Trying to do the right, the best thing, the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1231.378,"endTime":1235.44,"body":"right thing by their employees, by their customers, by their"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1235.44,"endTime":1239.619,"body":"partners, while also benefiting themselves, and we just overlook"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1239.619,"endTime":1243.159,"body":"it because these, you know, bad examples loom so large in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1243.159,"endTime":1245.5,"body":"people's minds, and they think that's representative of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1245.5,"endTime":1249.359,"body":"business, j- more generally, and those are really exceptions."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1249.359,"endTime":1253.259,"body":"The, the, I have not seen any textbook on, case"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1253.259,"endTime":1255.599,"body":"studies on honorable business. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1255.599,"endTime":1256.98,"body":"[chuckles] Not yet. Maybe there's an"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1256.98,"endTime":1257.638,"body":"opportunity there."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1257.638,"endTime":1260.0,"body":"Well, I would, I would think. Now, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1260.0,"endTime":1261.039,"body":"there's another,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1261.599,"endTime":1263.259,"body":"common objection to business-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1263.259,"endTime":1263.759,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1263.759,"endTime":1266.138,"body":"... And that is that it promotes consumerism and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1266.138,"endTime":1267.059,"body":"materialism-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1267.059,"endTime":1267.18,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1267.18,"endTime":1269.7,"body":"... And, you know, things that are, at the end"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1269.7,"endTime":1272.138,"body":"of the day, corrosive to our souls."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1272.138,"endTime":1275.638,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, that is a common objection, and I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1275.638,"endTime":1277.638,"body":"think there's some weight to that. You know, what I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1277.638,"endTime":1282.299,"body":"would say is, you know, maybe I... You, you can hedge that a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1282.299,"endTime":1285.319,"body":"little bit by saying, rather than promoting it enables"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1285.319,"endTime":1288.319,"body":"it. I mean, one of the uncomfortable truths I would say"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1288.319,"endTime":1290.18,"body":"about market economies is that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1290.759,"endTime":1294.359,"body":"they act like something like mirrors. They hold up mirrors to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1294.359,"endTime":1298.079,"body":"us. So, you know, in a market eco- and if you have a free"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1298.079,"endTime":1302.24,"body":"economy, well, will there be products and services offered"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1302.24,"endTime":1306.559,"body":"for sale and bought for, and employed, that are bad"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1306.559,"endTime":1308.48,"body":"for people? Yeah, there are."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1309.099,"endTime":1312.819,"body":"Is it the market economy itself that created that? Well, maybe a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1312.819,"endTime":1315.22,"body":"different way to think about it is that what it's really doing"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1315.22,"endTime":1318.519,"body":"is enabling people to do what they... To, to let the,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1318.519,"endTime":1320.799,"body":"[chuckles] what's going on inside them come out, and you're"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1320.799,"endTime":1322.38,"body":"gonna see it. So,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1323.0,"endTime":1326.94,"body":"so are there, you know, are, is there vice, and are there"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1326.94,"endTime":1330.839,"body":"various vices that you will see on, you know, on suppliers, and,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1330.839,"endTime":1332.859,"body":"you know, people are creating things and people buying things"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1332.859,"endTime":1336.039,"body":"in market economies? Yes, absolutely, but I don't think"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1336.039,"endTime":1339.138,"body":"that that's, necessarily reflective of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1339.759,"endTime":1342.659,"body":"the market itself. I think it's reflective of our fallen human"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1342.659,"endTime":1346.179,"body":"nature and the ability that a market gives you to exhibit the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1346.179,"endTime":1347.519,"body":"flaws in our own nature."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1347.519,"endTime":1349.92,"body":"Now, that's a really a helpful analogy, to see"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1349.92,"endTime":1351.099,"body":"markets as mirrors-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1351.099,"endTime":1351.5,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1351.5,"endTime":1353.559,"body":"... Of society's values. I've of- I've often"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1353.559,"endTime":1358.92,"body":"wondered, what is it that enables markets to pay athletes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1358.92,"endTime":1359.74,"body":"and entertainers"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1360.659,"endTime":1361.49,"body":"these outrageous-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1361.49,"endTime":1361.49,"body":"[chuckles] Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1361.49,"endTime":1363.638,"body":"... Sums of money, and yet, you know, elementary"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1363.638,"endTime":1365.98,"body":"school teachers, you know, arguably one of the most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1365.98,"endTime":1367.059,"body":"beneficial professions-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1367.059,"endTime":1367.069,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1367.069,"endTime":1368.759,"body":"... In our culture, get paid peanuts."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1368.759,"endTime":1371.46,"body":"Yeah. I think it's a reflection of what people are"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1371.46,"endTime":1374.539,"body":"choosing, and, you know, it's... And, I mean, you understand how,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1374.539,"endTime":1378.22,"body":"you know, supply and demand sets prices as well as anybody else."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1378.22,"endTime":1381.48,"body":"If people really value entertainment and ath- and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1381.48,"endTime":1383.38,"body":"athletes, well, then that's what you're going to get. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1383.38,"endTime":1385.799,"body":"there's also the part of it that, you know, there"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1385.799,"endTime":1389.019,"body":"aren't very many people who can hit a small sphere hurdling-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1389.019,"endTime":1389.109,"body":"That's also true"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1389.109,"endTime":1390.749,"body":"... Them at 95 miles per hour-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1390.749,"endTime":1390.749,"body":"That's also true"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1390.749,"endTime":1392.299,"body":"... Or whatever. So, you know, there's a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1392.299,"endTime":1395.679,"body":"constraint on that side too. But I think that what you see in a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1395.679,"endTime":1398.88,"body":"market economy is a reflection of people, of human beings"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1398.88,"endTime":1401.019,"body":"themselves, good and bad, warts and all."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1401.019,"endTime":1403.279,"body":"Yeah, that, I think that's a really helpful insight"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1403.279,"endTime":1404.88,"body":"because people wanna blame markets"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1405.539,"endTime":1409.179,"body":"when really what they need to be blaming are the people-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1409.179,"endTime":1409.339,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1409.339,"endTime":1410.97,"body":"... And the vices that come out."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1410.97,"endTime":1410.98,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1410.98,"endTime":1412.159,"body":"I mean, I think you're right. That's a good way"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1412.159,"endTime":1415.638,"body":"to put it, too, that markets enable those vices to come out-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1415.638,"endTime":1415.839,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1415.839,"endTime":1417.95,"body":"... Or they provide an arena for that. Maybe, maybe"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1417.95,"endTime":1419.039,"body":"to say that they promote"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1419.559,"endTime":1422.9,"body":"consumerism and materialism is a little too strong. Um-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1422.9,"endTime":1424.44,"body":"I think human beings themselves are"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1424.44,"endTime":1427.319,"body":"susceptible to consumerism and materialism, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1427.319,"endTime":1431.079,"body":"that's one of the ongoing challenges, for Christianity"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1431.079,"endTime":1433.159,"body":"and, you know, for other traditions as well. But to-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1433.159,"endTime":1434.24,"body":"You, you mean there was, there was greed and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1434.24,"endTime":1436.329,"body":"materialism in socialism as well? [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1436.329,"endTime":1437.98,"body":"[chuckles] Yes, I think. Wherever there have been"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1437.98,"endTime":1439.17,"body":"human beings, I think there's-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1439.17,"endTime":1439.17,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1439.17,"endTime":1440.638,"body":"... Been greed and materialism, right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1440.638,"endTime":1443.679,"body":"Now, one other objection that here, I..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1443.679,"endTime":1447.0,"body":"This one I think is maybe a little bit more challenging to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1447.0,"endTime":1447.619,"body":"deal with-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1447.619,"endTime":1447.9,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1447.9,"endTime":1450.579,"body":"... And that is that business and market economies"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1450.579,"endTime":1454.7,"body":"in particular, exacerbate economic inequality."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1454.7,"endTime":1455.74,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1455.74,"endTime":1457.319,"body":"And, and then I think there's... I mean, you,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1457.319,"endTime":1460.559,"body":"you raised a point earlier that for most of human history,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1460.559,"endTime":1461.94,"body":"everybody's been equal."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1461.94,"endTime":1462.179,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1462.179,"endTime":1462.48,"body":"You know, and I-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1462.48,"endTime":1463.279,"body":"Equally poor. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1463.279,"endTime":1464.659,"body":"Equally poor, wretched, [chuckles] and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1464.659,"endTime":1465.299,"body":"miserable."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1465.299,"endTime":1466.109,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1466.109,"endTime":1468.4,"body":"And the, you know, the majority of wealth was not,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1468.4,"endTime":1473.579,"body":"it was not by the 1%, but maybe the 0.000001%."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1473.579,"endTime":1474.7,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1474.7,"endTime":1478.268,"body":"But, you know, when markets came along-... All of a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1478.268,"endTime":1480.468,"body":"sudden, we talked about inequality."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1480.468,"endTime":1481.127,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1481.127,"endTime":1483.387,"body":"And so how do you address that? That's a, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1483.387,"endTime":1486.428,"body":"seems to be, to be a little bit more of a challenging objection."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1486.428,"endTime":1487.968,"body":"It is a challenging objection, and it's"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1487.968,"endTime":1491.508,"body":"a, it's a perennial one. So, you know, I think it speaks to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1491.508,"endTime":1494.548,"body":"something deep in the human heart. And before, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1494.548,"endTime":1498.067,"body":"would, I think, you know, anybody might just dismiss that,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1498.587,"endTime":1501.946,"body":"you know, there is a, I think, a serious question to ask- Well,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1501.946,"endTime":1505.528,"body":"if we were all created in the image and likeness of God, then"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1505.528,"endTime":1508.028,"body":"there is... You know, we were all equally created, and so, you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1508.028,"endTime":1508.097,"body":"know,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1508.728,"endTime":1511.587,"body":"how could it be the case that one person could be worth"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1512.127,"endTime":1515.708,"body":"a thousand times or more, that as much as somebody else, how is"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1515.708,"endTime":1517.777,"body":"that reflective of our equal human dignity?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1518.788,"endTime":1520.647,"body":"So I think that is a real question."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1521.186,"endTime":1524.008,"body":"Empirically speaking, what it looks like in our fallen world,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1524.008,"endTime":1525.428,"body":"in our imperfect and fallen world-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1525.428,"endTime":1525.488,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1526.008,"endTime":1526.018,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1526.528,"endTime":1529.028,"body":"What it looks like is that, you know, for the first time in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1529.028,"endTime":1533.008,"body":"human history, some people began to, in some places, began to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1533.008,"endTime":1537.288,"body":"figure out how to enable people to rise out of that long, low,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1537.288,"endTime":1539.268,"body":"historical norm of poverty."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1539.907,"endTime":1544.667,"body":"As they did so, they began to rise out, then other places"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1544.667,"endTime":1547.807,"body":"began to emulate that, and then later on, they began. And so in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1547.807,"endTime":1550.107,"body":"fits and starts, different places start. This, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1550.107,"endTime":1552.186,"body":"started maybe in Northwest Europe, and then it sort of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1552.186,"endTime":1556.167,"body":"spread to some other places. Now, you bring that from 1800 or"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1556.167,"endTime":1560.347,"body":"so to the 21st century now, what do you see? Well, you see the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1560.347,"endTime":1564.847,"body":"places that first began rising out of it have risen quite high."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1564.847,"endTime":1567.147,"body":"And then you have other places that aren't that, to that level"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1567.147,"endTime":1571.488,"body":"yet, but substantially every place on Earth today is"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1571.488,"endTime":1574.087,"body":"increasing in prosperity, but they haven't yet reached the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1574.087,"endTime":1578.288,"body":"same levels and not at the same rates. So I think the que- the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1578.288,"endTime":1579.446,"body":"question I would leave,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1580.167,"endTime":1583.087,"body":"you or, you know, your listeners to think about is- Suppose you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1583.087,"endTime":1585.847,"body":"could get rid of one thing in the world, but only one thing."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1585.847,"endTime":1590.468,"body":"You could get rid of either poverty or inequality. Which"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1590.468,"endTime":1593.528,"body":"would you choose? Which is the greater source of misery or a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1593.528,"endTime":1596.708,"body":"greater cause of misery or suffering in human life? Because"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1596.708,"endTime":1600.107,"body":"I think that seems empirically to be, the actual position we"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1600.107,"endTime":1604.327,"body":"face, because if we want to focus on poverty, people will"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1604.327,"endTime":1607.527,"body":"rise out of poverty, but they will do so unequally. On the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1607.527,"endTime":1610.488,"body":"other hand, if we wanna focus on equality, it seems like we know"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1610.488,"endTime":1612.827,"body":"how to make everybody relatively equal in wealth-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1612.827,"endTime":1613.117,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1613.117,"endTime":1615.667,"body":"... And they're gonna be equally poor. So which"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1615.667,"endTime":1617.008,"body":"one matters more to you?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1617.548,"endTime":1620.607,"body":"And, you know, I won't, be coy about it. For me, poverty is a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1620.607,"endTime":1623.887,"body":"much greater, source of misery. So I guess what I would say,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1623.887,"endTime":1626.127,"body":"maybe this is the last part, last thing I'll say on this, on"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1626.127,"endTime":1631.407,"body":"this topic, is, you know, we still have about 700 or even 800"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1631.407,"endTime":1634.467,"body":"million people on Earth who are living at that very low level,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1634.467,"endTime":1635.458,"body":"the historical level."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1636.587,"endTime":1639.827,"body":"Until everybody is above, all human beings are above that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1639.827,"endTime":1643.688,"body":"level, I would say the disparities between the people"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1643.688,"endTime":1646.048,"body":"at the top and the people who are just leaving that level"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1646.587,"endTime":1650.087,"body":"is of secondary concern. Doesn't mean it's of no concern, but I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1650.087,"endTime":1652.467,"body":"would say, let's focus on giving it, getting everybody out of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1652.467,"endTime":1655.508,"body":"poverty, and then once we do that, okay, then maybe we can"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1655.508,"endTime":1658.268,"body":"turn our attention to some other things that worry us or"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1658.268,"endTime":1661.107,"body":"that concern us about human relations, and maybe inequality"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1661.107,"endTime":1662.147,"body":"will be one of them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1662.147,"endTime":1662.248,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1662.768,"endTime":1665.567,"body":"it sounds like what you're suggesting is that the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1665.567,"endTime":1667.446,"body":"critics of markets and of business,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1668.248,"endTime":1670.688,"body":"on the basis of inequality, are actually shooting at the wrong"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1670.688,"endTime":1671.327,"body":"target."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1671.327,"endTime":1672.887,"body":"I think they often are, yeah."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1673.587,"endTime":1675.488,"body":"Let's get everybody out of poverty, and I think a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1675.488,"endTime":1677.087,"body":"the people"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1677.728,"endTime":1681.488,"body":"who are, who are most exercised and worried about inequality"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1681.488,"endTime":1684.147,"body":"tend to be people, not always, but they tend to be people who"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1684.147,"endTime":1687.347,"body":"are already pretty high on the, [chuckles] on the wealth level."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1687.347,"endTime":1690.008,"body":"So they're already enjoying, you know, the fruits of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1690.567,"endTime":1692.127,"body":"prior generations' work,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1693.428,"endTime":1696.107,"body":"and maybe they don't quite appreciate what's required to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1696.107,"endTime":1698.758,"body":"get people who are still at that historical level to come out and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1698.758,"endTime":1699.508,"body":"join them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1699.508,"endTime":1701.688,"body":"Well, and I think we have to recognize, too, that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1701.688,"endTime":1702.807,"body":"you know, people make choices-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1703.327,"endTime":1704.028,"body":"Yeah, that's true"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1704.028,"endTime":1704.907,"body":"... Along the way."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1704.907,"endTime":1705.048,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1705.048,"endTime":1706.946,"body":"I mean, sometimes people make poor choices"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1707.667,"endTime":1710.728,"body":"that, you know, maybe they drop out of school, or they get"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1710.728,"endTime":1713.587,"body":"in trouble with the law, or they have, you know, they have kids"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1713.587,"endTime":1717.847,"body":"out of wedlock. Those seem to be sort of the big three that-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1717.847,"endTime":1718.048,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1718.048,"endTime":1720.167,"body":"... Make it pretty, a lot tougher to get out of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1720.167,"endTime":1723.688,"body":"poverty. But then some pe- some people make other choices, like,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1723.688,"endTime":1726.778,"body":"you know, my kids are all artists of one sort or another."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1726.778,"endTime":1728.288,"body":"[chuckles] And they've, you know, they've made choices"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1728.847,"endTime":1731.876,"body":"that have, you know, that have an impact on their income."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1732.807,"endTime":1735.488,"body":"But, we don't, we don't fault them for their choices."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1735.488,"endTime":1735.988,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1735.988,"endTime":1738.446,"body":"But we recognize that's, that those choices do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1738.446,"endTime":1739.528,"body":"have implications."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1739.528,"endTime":1741.167,"body":"Right, they do have consequences, and you're"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1741.167,"endTime":1744.367,"body":"right. I... You raise a good point that, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1744.367,"endTime":1747.567,"body":"don't wanna denigrate human moral agency. You know, if"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1747.567,"endTime":1751.387,"body":"you're a free human being free, the ability to make free"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1751.387,"endTime":1754.387,"body":"choices, means you're also responsible for those choices."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1754.387,"endTime":1757.647,"body":"And so in, a way we often don't think about it, and this is the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1757.647,"endTime":1760.827,"body":"point I think you're raising, is that it can show respect for"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1760.827,"endTime":1764.367,"body":"human dignity and human agency to say, \"Well, these are the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1764.367,"endTime":1767.407,"body":"choices your- you've made,\" and so when you make choices, you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1767.407,"endTime":1767.728,"body":"also"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1768.327,"endTime":1770.887,"body":"assume you're, you're choosing the consequences of those"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1770.887,"endTime":1771.488,"body":"choices-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1771.488,"endTime":1771.498,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1771.498,"endTime":1774.327,"body":"... Often as well. And so I think a way, maybe"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1774.327,"endTime":1777.228,"body":"an, you know, an unappreciated way of respecting human dignity"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1777.228,"endTime":1780.057,"body":"is respecting those choices people make, too."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1780.057,"endTime":1782.446,"body":"Let me ask one, a c- a couple more final questions on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1782.446,"endTime":1782.597,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1782.597,"endTime":1782.647,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1782.647,"endTime":1786.188,"body":"One thing I'm, I'm just curious about, w- in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1786.188,"endTime":1787.188,"body":"my, in my experience,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1787.928,"endTime":1788.847,"body":"a lot of businesspeople"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1789.446,"endTime":1792.248,"body":"don't... They don't recognize or acknowledge"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1792.946,"endTime":1795.028,"body":"the goods that business does."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1795.028,"endTime":1795.788,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1795.788,"endTime":1798.907,"body":"And I've often been curious as to, as to why that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1798.907,"endTime":1802.728,"body":"is, because if anybody would be, we would want to be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1802.728,"endTime":1805.167,"body":"apologist for the good that business does, it's actually"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1805.167,"endTime":1808.788,"body":"businesspeople who are out there doing this day after day. Is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1808.788,"endTime":1811.208,"body":"that, is that... Have you had a similar experience of that, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1811.208,"endTime":1815.228,"body":"if so, how do you account for their sort, their, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1815.228,"endTime":1820.008,"body":"maybe that's their reluctance, to speak to the v- all"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1820.008,"endTime":1822.268,"body":"these various goods that business does?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1822.268,"endTime":1824.467,"body":"Yeah. No, I have seen that."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1825.008,"endTime":1827.488,"body":"And here's an analogy I would use. If you think about..."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1827.488,"endTime":1829.887,"body":"Compare these two professions, medicine on the one hand and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1829.887,"endTime":1833.627,"body":"business on the other. In many ways, they're very similar. So,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1833.627,"endTime":1836.467,"body":"in both of them, there are... So they are both professions, and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1836.467,"endTime":1839.667,"body":"in both of them, there are specialties and subspecialties."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1839.667,"endTime":1842.248,"body":"In both of them, you need technical knowledge to be"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1842.248,"endTime":1844.867,"body":"successful. Maybe you need a lot of years of experience before"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1844.867,"endTime":1847.667,"body":"you're any good at what you do. And in both of them, you might"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1847.667,"endTime":1848.667,"body":"make a lot of money."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1849.428,"endTime":1852.347,"body":"But consider how differently those two professions are viewed"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1852.347,"endTime":1855.567,"body":"by the wider culture. You know, nobody says to the medical"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1855.567,"endTime":1857.946,"body":"doctor or the surgeon, \"Well, now you, that you've made your"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1857.946,"endTime":1859.538,"body":"money, you need to give back to society.\" [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1859.538,"endTime":1859.548,"body":"Yeah. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1859.548,"endTime":1861.038,"body":"You know, they say that to businesspeople."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1861.768,"endTime":1864.087,"body":"And, you know, why is that exactly? What's the difference?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1864.087,"endTime":1868.788,"body":"Well, I think many people think that you can, that-... Medicine,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1868.788,"endTime":1872.387,"body":"in its activity, is creating value. Sometimes it's saving"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1872.387,"endTime":1874.788,"body":"lives. It's not always directly saving lives, but improving"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1874.788,"endTime":1877.837,"body":"lives in various ways. But they don't see that with business."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1877.837,"endTime":1880.727,"body":"They don't see that what you're doing on a day-to-day basis is"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1880.727,"endTime":1883.087,"body":"improving people's lives. But-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1883.087,"endTime":1885.928,"body":"Yeah, it's a- it's actually enabling the physician"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1885.928,"endTime":1887.647,"body":"to save lives like he or she does-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1887.647,"endTime":1888.038,"body":"Yes. Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1888.038,"endTime":1889.038,"body":"... So regularly."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1889.038,"endTime":1890.747,"body":"And, you know, things like, you know, and I w-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1890.747,"endTime":1893.247,"body":"don't wanna bring it just to me, but where do universities come"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1893.247,"endTime":1895.887,"body":"from? You know, where does the wealth that generates,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1896.508,"endTime":1900.587,"body":"u- buildings and endowments at universities that enable me to"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1900.587,"endTime":1901.487,"body":"do what I do,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1902.008,"endTime":1905.048,"body":"ultimately, that's coming from business activity. So I think"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1905.048,"endTime":1907.907,"body":"that the value that business creates,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1908.686,"endTime":1913.467,"body":"is so dispersed, and it's so sort of in the air, that people"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1913.467,"endTime":1917.186,"body":"don't see it very much. And then when you combine that with what"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1917.186,"endTime":1919.967,"body":"we started out with a zero-sum view of the world,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1919.967,"endTime":1921.727,"body":"where they think that if you're successful, it's coming at"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1921.727,"endTime":1924.807,"body":"somebody else's expense, those things together, I think, can"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1924.807,"endTime":1928.127,"body":"lead even business people to think, \"Gosh, should I feel,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1928.127,"endTime":1931.268,"body":"should I be, feel guilty about being successful in business? It"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1931.268,"endTime":1934.667,"body":"cer- sure is hard work. I work, I work really hard [chuckles] !\""},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1934.667,"endTime":1937.337,"body":"I mean, and running a business is, it is tremendously"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1937.337,"endTime":1940.587,"body":"difficult, and, it takes a lot of work and dedication, and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1940.587,"endTime":1943.507,"body":"they, you know... But given this background cultural view, I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1943.507,"endTime":1946.367,"body":"think sometimes they can think, \"Gosh, should I feel guilty"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1946.367,"endTime":1947.387,"body":"about this?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1947.387,"endTime":1950.487,"body":"Yeah, I had a, the, my longtime teaching partner in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1950.487,"endTime":1953.987,"body":"business ethics, was in the hospital not too long ago."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1954.686,"endTime":1955.428,"body":"And for,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1956.288,"endTime":1958.647,"body":"something moderately serious, he was in there for a few days,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1959.186,"endTime":1961.288,"body":"and w- the first night he was in there, in the middle of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1961.288,"endTime":1965.028,"body":"night, the janitorial service comes in asking to clean"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1965.028,"endTime":1969.248,"body":"the room. And he, you know, he has a good sense of this, and so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1969.248,"endTime":1972.507,"body":"he asked the janitorial person, he said- \"Do you know, do you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1972.507,"endTime":1974.788,"body":"understand how important your work actually is?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1975.667,"endTime":1978.087,"body":"And he said, \"Do you know, if you didn't do your job well,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1978.087,"endTime":1979.627,"body":"this place would close,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1980.327,"endTime":1983.827,"body":"and no physician or nurse could do, could do anything about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1983.827,"endTime":1984.667,"body":"that.\""},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1984.667,"endTime":1984.928,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1984.928,"endTime":1985.417,"body":"And she'd,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1985.928,"endTime":1988.788,"body":"she had never thought about it, and was, I think, ta- a bit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1988.788,"endTime":1989.487,"body":"taken aback"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1990.087,"endTime":1991.028,"body":"by the suggestion-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":1991.028,"endTime":1991.597,"body":"Not actually imagined that, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1991.597,"endTime":1994.467,"body":"... That may, that maybe her work actually really"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1994.467,"endTime":1999.487,"body":"created goods, not just for herself, but for a whole host of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1999.487,"endTime":2003.987,"body":"other people who were, and ironically, totally dependent-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2003.987,"endTime":2004.307,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2004.907,"endTime":2005.127,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2005.127,"endTime":2007.067,"body":"... On her, on her doing her job well."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2007.067,"endTime":2008.048,"body":"A-a- it, that's,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2008.757,"endTime":2011.887,"body":"Yeah, I, a-and I think we don't do a good enough job in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2011.887,"endTime":2014.667,"body":"recognizing and ag- acknowledging the humanity, and,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2014.667,"endTime":2017.788,"body":"A, the humanity in people like that, but also the economic"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2017.788,"endTime":2021.248,"body":"necessity that they're playing. Without, jobs like that... You"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2021.248,"endTime":2023.367,"body":"know, one of the things, and this is a bit of a pet peeve of"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2023.367,"endTime":2026.446,"body":"mine, there is a view out there that if you don't go to college,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2026.446,"endTime":2028.867,"body":"well, you're a moral failure in some way, or your life is a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2028.867,"endTime":2033.307,"body":"failure. Holy cow, there are so many things that a functioning"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2033.307,"endTime":2037.528,"body":"society needs that don't require, a college degree. I"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2037.528,"endTime":2041.227,"body":"mean, for people for whom that's the right course, great. But"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2041.227,"endTime":2043.867,"body":"there are a lot of people and a lot of jobs like these"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2043.867,"endTime":2047.907,"body":"kinds of jobs, without which we would just immediately cease,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2047.907,"endTime":2050.427,"body":"and I think people have no idea about these sorts of things, and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2050.427,"endTime":2053.126,"body":"that's, to our discredit. We need to really think carefully"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2053.126,"endTime":2056.268,"body":"about all the many roles that human beings can play, different"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2056.268,"endTime":2058.867,"body":"roles, in up- upholding a flourishing society."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2058.867,"endTime":2060.467,"body":"Yeah. I would not wanna think about the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2060.467,"endTime":2062.768,"body":"flourishing of my family without plumbers or auto mechanics."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2062.768,"endTime":2064.807,"body":"Yeah! Right, exactly. [chuckles] Exactly."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2064.807,"endTime":2067.086,"body":"That, that would be a fairly bleak thing to think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2067.086,"endTime":2067.427,"body":"about."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2067.427,"endTime":2068.126,"body":"Sure would."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2068.126,"endTime":2070.288,"body":"All right, Jim, one final question here. This has"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2070.288,"endTime":2071.317,"body":"been really insightful-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2071.317,"endTime":2071.336,"body":"Oh, thank you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2071.336,"endTime":2073.847,"body":"... So I appreciate this. But what advice do you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2073.847,"endTime":2078.248,"body":"have to the Christian business person who is serious about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2078.248,"endTime":2081.606,"body":"seeing their faith impact their life in business?"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2082.427,"endTime":2084.867,"body":"It's a g- a good question, and, the, what I would"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2084.867,"endTime":2089.387,"body":"say is, the first thing to do is to see the humanity in everybody"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2089.387,"endTime":2090.188,"body":"you work with. So"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2091.047,"endTime":2093.367,"body":"if you believe that you are created in the image and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2093.367,"endTime":2096.438,"body":"likeness of God, that all human beings are created in the image"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2096.438,"endTime":2099.768,"body":"and likeness of God, that means that every person you deal with"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2099.768,"endTime":2104.148,"body":"is sacred. Whatever role they play, there is a holiness and a"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2104.148,"endTime":2107.708,"body":"sacredness about that person. And if you think about whatever"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2107.708,"endTime":2110.648,"body":"you're doing, whatever industry you're in, or whatever your firm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2110.648,"endTime":2115.407,"body":"is doing, whatever role you play in the firm, as ultimately being"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2115.407,"endTime":2120.148,"body":"to serve those sacred human beings and to lift them up and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2120.148,"endTime":2123.208,"body":"benefit them, then that's something I think you can feel"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2123.208,"endTime":2125.728,"body":"as though... And I don't want to use a word like pride, because"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2125.728,"endTime":2128.407,"body":"that can become a sin as well. But that's something that you"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2128.407,"endTime":2132.487,"body":"can justifiably think, \"Maybe I've found my calling, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2132.487,"endTime":2136.047,"body":"ultimately serving not just other human beings, but God, and"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2136.047,"endTime":2137.086,"body":"God's providence.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2137.086,"endTime":2139.027,"body":"Yeah, and I, and I'd like to see the business"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2139.027,"endTime":2139.248,"body":"owner"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2139.887,"endTime":2142.367,"body":"actually see that about his or her-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2142.367,"endTime":2142.447,"body":"Exactly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2142.447,"endTime":2143.228,"body":"... His or her calling as well."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2143.228,"endTime":2145.067,"body":"100%. Yeah, 100%."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2145.067,"endTime":2145.108,"body":"Um-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2145.108,"endTime":2146.847,"body":"And, and there are people... Look, I probably"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2146.847,"endTime":2148.987,"body":"couldn't run a business. My father was a serial [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2148.987,"endTime":2151.768,"body":"entrepreneur, and most of the time, it, most of his ventures"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2151.768,"endTime":2154.728,"body":"failed. It's not easy to do, and I think we underestimate the"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2154.728,"endTime":2157.427,"body":"difficulty of that, and it's not right for everybody."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2157.427,"endTime":2160.608,"body":"But for those people for whom that is, if they discern that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2160.608,"endTime":2164.007,"body":"that is their calling, I think they should see themselves as"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2164.007,"endTime":2167.168,"body":"responding to God, and this is really what I'm called to do,"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2167.168,"endTime":2171.027,"body":"and they should be, you know, think that, \"I'm playing my role"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2171.027,"endTime":2174.748,"body":"that God intends for me to play in,\" and it can very well be in"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2174.748,"endTime":2175.148,"body":"business."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2176.387,"endTime":2176.518,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2176.518,"endTime":2177.197,"body":"Amen. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2177.197,"endTime":2179.228,"body":"Now, that's, that's a, I think that's a very helpful"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2179.228,"endTime":2180.228,"body":"benediction-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2180.228,"endTime":2180.257,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2180.257,"endTime":2181.067,"body":"... For this. So-"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2181.067,"endTime":2181.447,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2181.447,"endTime":2184.567,"body":"... Jim, this has been so insightful, so helpful."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2184.567,"endTime":2184.626,"body":"Thank you, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2184.626,"endTime":2187.708,"body":"And I pray for our listeners who are, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2187.708,"endTime":2190.807,"body":"know, in the workplace, which is the vast majority of them, they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2190.807,"endTime":2194.168,"body":"will see their work as a holy calling and see the people that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2194.168,"endTime":2198.086,"body":"they work with as sacred human beings made in the image"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2198.086,"endTime":2200.547,"body":"of li- and likeness of God. That's, that's a great way to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2200.547,"endTime":2201.148,"body":"end on this."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2201.148,"endTime":2203.427,"body":"Thank you very much, and I, and I second that"},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2203.427,"endTime":2204.268,"body":"wholeheartedly."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2204.268,"endTime":2206.567,"body":"Well, very much appreciated for your time today."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2206.567,"endTime":2209.387,"body":"This has been a rich conversation."},{"speaker":"Jim Otteson","startTime":2209.387,"endTime":2211.027,"body":"Thank you, Scott. My pleasure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2211.027,"endTime":2212.728,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2212.728,"endTime":2215.807,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture. It's brought"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2215.807,"endTime":2218.608,"body":"to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2218.608,"endTime":2221.967,"body":"offering programs in Southern California and online. Visit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2221.967,"endTime":2226.567,"body":"biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2226.567,"endTime":2230.027,"body":"submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2230.027,"endTime":2233.527,"body":"you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, email"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2233.527,"endTime":2237.567,"body":"us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2237.567,"endTime":2240.507,"body":"conversation, give us a rating on your podcast app, share it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2240.507,"endTime":2244.027,"body":"with a friend, and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2244.027,"endTime":2247.148,"body":"update. In the meantime, thanks for listening, and remember,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2247.148,"endTime":2256.768,"body":"think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}