{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.54,"body":"[upbeat music] Why have so many time-saving devices"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.54,"endTime":7.98,"body":"actually not saved us any time at all? How do you know if your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":7.98,"endTime":12.48,"body":"devices actually work for you, or you work for them? And what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":12.48,"endTime":15.099,"body":"guidance is there for an appropriate use of artificial"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":15.099,"endTime":17.859,"body":"intelligence? We'll answer these questions and a whole lot more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":17.859,"endTime":21.44,"body":"with our guest today, Dr. Trevor Sutton, pastor, professor, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":21.44,"endTime":24.78,"body":"author, specializing in the intersection of theology and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":24.78,"endTime":27.519,"body":"technology. I'm your host, Scott Rae, and this is Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":27.519,"endTime":30.839,"body":"Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":30.839,"endTime":34.799,"body":"Trevor, welcome. Really glad to have you with us. So appreciate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":34.799,"endTime":38.619,"body":"your emphasis and what you bring to this conversation, so really"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":38.619,"endTime":39.6,"body":"glad to have you-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":39.6,"endTime":40.128,"body":"Absolutely"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":40.128,"endTime":40.35,"body":"... With us."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":40.35,"endTime":41.939,"body":"I'm, I'm excited to have the conversation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":41.939,"endTime":44.5,"body":"Tell us a little bit about what generated your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":44.5,"endTime":47.56,"body":"interest in this connection between theology and technology,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":47.56,"endTime":50.359,"body":"because you're trained, I take it, as a, as sort of a classic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":50.359,"endTime":54.74,"body":"systematic theologian, but this is a, an, a bit novel"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":54.74,"endTime":58.399,"body":"application of theology that you don't see every day. So what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":58.399,"endTime":61.179,"body":"sparked your interest in pursuing this a little bit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":61.179,"endTime":61.659,"body":"further?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":61.659,"endTime":64.019,"body":"Yeah, I stumbled on it. Was not trying"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":64.019,"endTime":67.959,"body":"to find it. So I'm a parish pastor, did a Master's of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":67.959,"endTime":70.75,"body":"Divinity, was serving a congregation in Lansing,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":70.75,"endTime":73.98,"body":"Michigan, where I'm still serving. We're in the shadows"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":73.98,"endTime":77.68,"body":"of Michigan State University. A lot of my"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":77.68,"endTime":80.099,"body":"congregation, you know, has connections to the university,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":80.099,"endTime":83.799,"body":"so pretty quickly after starting to serve in that parish, it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":83.799,"endTime":87.26,"body":"became obvious that having an advanced degree from that"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":87.26,"endTime":90.0,"body":"school would've been helpful, and so I found a program,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":90.549,"endTime":93.599,"body":"at Michigan State. It was called, Digital Rhetoric and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":93.599,"endTime":94.68,"body":"Professional Writing."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":95.319,"endTime":98.959,"body":"And I was very intrigued by the professional writing side of it."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":98.959,"endTime":102.06,"body":"Prior to starting the parish, I'd done journalism and, been a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":102.06,"endTime":105.2,"body":"writer. The digital rhetoric thing, I sorta did like you did."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":105.2,"endTime":108.14,"body":"I was like, \"Huh, okay.\" [chuckles] But I came for, came"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":108.14,"endTime":111.78,"body":"for B, and I found A. [chuckles] I came for the professional"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":111.78,"endTime":115.06,"body":"writing part of that program, and I found the digital rhetoric"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":115.06,"endTime":118.879,"body":"side of it. And that was a master's, degree, and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":118.879,"endTime":121.379,"body":"really, what digital rhetoric is... People always ask, \"What,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":121.379,"endTime":125.439,"body":"what on earth is that?\" That is exploring how communication or"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":125.439,"endTime":130.86,"body":"discourse is digitally mediated. And, and it was kind of, not to"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":130.86,"endTime":134.24,"body":"oversell it, but it was kind of a Paul-on-the-road-to-Damascus"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":134.24,"endTime":137.56,"body":"kind of thing, where once I got into the program, once I started"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":137.56,"endTime":141.539,"body":"reading and exploring this topic, kind of the scales"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":141.539,"endTime":145.08,"body":"fell off, and I said, \"Oh, my goodness, so much of our"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":145.08,"endTime":149.379,"body":"communication, our discourse, the way that we think, the way"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":149.379,"endTime":153.02,"body":"that we, you know, engage in theology, so much of this is"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":153.02,"endTime":157.199,"body":"mediated.\" And that's not saying it's good [chuckles] or bad."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":157.199,"endTime":160.06,"body":"It's just sort of a statement of reality of, there's a whole lot"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":160.06,"endTime":162.539,"body":"of mediation going on in our communication,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":163.06,"endTime":166.699,"body":"and so we better start putting our arms around this to think,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":166.699,"endTime":170.199,"body":"you know, biblically about it, think theologically about it,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":170.199,"endTime":174.56,"body":"ask thoughtful, critical questions. So that was maybe"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":174.56,"endTime":175.81,"body":"about 13 years ago-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":175.81,"endTime":175.949,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":175.949,"endTime":178.219,"body":"... That I sort of started in this field,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":178.219,"endTime":181.639,"body":"putting, you know, my theological background into"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":181.639,"endTime":184.84,"body":"conversation with the technological background. That"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":184.84,"endTime":189.039,"body":"led me then to a PhD in Doctrinal Theology, with an"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":189.039,"endTime":191.469,"body":"emphasis in the Philosophy of Technology-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":191.469,"endTime":192.069,"body":"Very good."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":192.069,"endTime":194.12,"body":"-uh, online worship, in particular."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":194.12,"endTime":197.199,"body":"Very good. Now, you raised the question, it's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":197.199,"endTime":200.3,"body":"very provocative question. It says- Do our devices... And I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":200.3,"endTime":204.3,"body":"take it by devices, you mean just phones, screens, tablets-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":204.3,"endTime":205.819,"body":"Yep, that's a good place to start"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":205.819,"endTime":205.879,"body":"... Computers."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":205.879,"endTime":206.379,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":206.979,"endTime":209.28,"body":"But it- I'm sure there's other things, too, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":209.28,"endTime":214.0,"body":"do our- do our devices work for us, or do we work for them?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":214.0,"endTime":214.58,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":214.58,"endTime":216.939,"body":"Very provocative. And how do you know, what are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":216.939,"endTime":220.329,"body":"the signs that tell you that you, that you are actually"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":220.329,"endTime":224.719,"body":"working for your devices and not the other way around?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":224.719,"endTime":227.28,"body":"As a... I appreciate that question, and,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":227.28,"endTime":230.699,"body":"and I wish I had a more thoughtful, deeper answer to it,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":230.699,"endTime":235.319,"body":"but I do think there's kind of a visceral answer to it, and that"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":235.319,"endTime":240.979,"body":"visceral answer is that really, we have this dissatisfaction"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":240.979,"endTime":241.86,"body":"with our devices,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":242.439,"endTime":244.719,"body":"and that right there tells me there's something going on in"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":244.719,"endTime":248.06,"body":"this question, because we want these devices, and like you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":248.06,"endTime":249.659,"body":"said, there's a more technical"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":250.96,"endTime":253.599,"body":"definition of devices. We can draw on philosophy of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":253.599,"endTime":256.319,"body":"technology, but just very practically, just like you said,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":256.319,"endTime":259.48,"body":"our smartphones, our smartwatches, our laptops, our"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":259.48,"endTime":260.86,"body":"screens, you know, all of those things,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":261.54,"endTime":265.759,"body":"we want them, we desire them, we need them. But if you ask 10"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":265.759,"endTime":266.24,"body":"people,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":266.98,"endTime":269.0,"body":"\"Hey, how do you feel about this?\""},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":269.519,"endTime":271.48,"body":"Most of them are gonna say something about, \"Eh, it's an"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":271.48,"endTime":275.279,"body":"antagonistic relationship. I'm not thoroughly satisfied. I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":275.279,"endTime":278.24,"body":"don't really appreciate this. I wish I could have less of this"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":278.24,"endTime":282.339,"body":"in my life.\" And so just that experience right there, of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":282.339,"endTime":285.86,"body":"we want these, we need them, we're, we're, we're dependent on"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":285.86,"endTime":286.12,"body":"them,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":287.199,"endTime":289.519,"body":"and we have a problematic relationship, that tells me"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":289.519,"endTime":290.72,"body":"there's something going on here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":290.72,"endTime":292.18,"body":"That's a good, that's a good observation. I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":292.18,"endTime":294.62,"body":"wonder, I wonder if maybe the question might be to pose to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":294.62,"endTime":297.72,"body":"folks- How, how would you fare-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":298.36,"endTime":301.04,"body":"... If you had a device-free day?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":301.04,"endTime":301.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":301.1,"endTime":305.12,"body":"Or, or, a, you know, a, maybe a fa- a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":305.12,"endTime":306.12,"body":"couple days fast-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":306.12,"endTime":306.589,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":306.589,"endTime":309.24,"body":"... From your devices. I suspect most people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":309.24,"endTime":311.68,"body":"would probably not take that well."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":311.68,"endTime":314.18,"body":"Absolutely, and that's one of the things that I,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":314.18,"endTime":317.54,"body":"kind of drawing on scrip- on scripture, is the practice of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":317.54,"endTime":321.56,"body":"fasting. And in my, you know, teaching on this and interaction"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":321.56,"endTime":323.939,"body":"on it, I really like to help people think, what does it look"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":323.939,"endTime":327.56,"body":"like to fast, you know, whether it's during a period of the day"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":327.56,"endTime":331.079,"body":"or a period of the week, or even fasting... This is a weird way"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":331.079,"endTime":334.899,"body":"of thinking of fasting, but, like, spatially fasting. So for"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":334.899,"endTime":336.62,"body":"a period of time, I'm gonna move this thing"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":337.48,"endTime":341.519,"body":"into a different location, and move this, you know, TV"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":341.519,"endTime":344.54,"body":"out of my bedroom into the living room. Or when I come in"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":344.54,"endTime":346.81,"body":"the house, put my phone here"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":347.379,"endTime":350.04,"body":"and not keep it in my pocket, which I know is a stretch for"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":350.04,"endTime":353.42,"body":"fasting, but it's, it's a way we can kind of draw onto that idea"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":353.42,"endTime":355.399,"body":"of, I'm going to exert"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":356.24,"endTime":358.04,"body":"distance, [chuckles] exert a-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":358.04,"endTime":358.069,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":358.069,"endTime":360.632,"body":"... Agency, exert, self-control."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":360.632,"endTime":362.971,"body":"... Well, it may be that some people need baby"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":362.971,"endTime":363.632,"body":"steps-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":363.632,"endTime":364.052,"body":"100%"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":364.052,"endTime":365.512,"body":"-to get started with that."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":365.512,"endTime":365.692,"body":"Yep. Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":365.692,"endTime":368.432,"body":"Now, you had a really interesting part of your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":368.432,"endTime":371.132,"body":"presentation here at Acton University was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":371.711,"endTime":375.372,"body":"when you discussed an early- ... Technological intervention with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":375.372,"endTime":378.711,"body":"which has had profound societal implications, and it's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":378.711,"endTime":379.851,"body":"that's the clock."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":379.851,"endTime":380.132,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":380.692,"endTime":383.872,"body":"And so what i- what's been the impact of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":383.872,"endTime":387.372,"body":"clock in its shaping our approach to time? You know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":387.372,"endTime":390.132,"body":"especially given, as you describe, what the original"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":390.132,"endTime":393.271,"body":"intention of the clock was related to worship."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":393.271,"endTime":394.492,"body":"Yeah. No, it's great."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":395.692,"endTime":398.351,"body":"Kind of drawing on Augustine, you know, Augustine's got this"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":398.351,"endTime":401.692,"body":"great line about time, that if you ask me what time is, I can"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":401.692,"endTime":405.531,"body":"tell you. If you ask me what time is, I have no idea."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":405.531,"endTime":405.721,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":405.721,"endTime":406.192,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":406.192,"endTime":407.771,"body":"You know, it's this idea that, like, we"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":407.771,"endTime":410.812,"body":"understand time, and then you double-click on that, and you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":410.812,"endTime":414.132,"body":"really don't really understand time. And I think clocks are"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":414.132,"endTime":416.492,"body":"kind of the same way, right? Like, everybody"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":417.151,"endTime":419.331,"body":"sees clocks, they wear them on their wrist, they have"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":419.331,"endTime":422.971,"body":"them all over the place. We know next to nothing of the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":422.971,"endTime":425.511,"body":"history of clocks [chuckles] and how did they come to be, how did"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":425.511,"endTime":430.072,"body":"they become so ubiquitous in society and this technology"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":430.072,"endTime":433.572,"body":"that's, that's, what philosophers of technology would"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":433.572,"endTime":437.211,"body":"call like a background technology. It's just there."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":437.211,"endTime":440.531,"body":"It's like air conditioning. You know, you don't think about it,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":440.531,"endTime":441.471,"body":"but you look at it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":442.632,"endTime":445.932,"body":"30, 40 times in the day. So it's not as front and center as your"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":445.932,"endTime":450.112,"body":"phone. But anyway, the history of the clock is fascinating."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":450.112,"endTime":453.192,"body":"And I'm not a historian of that particular technology,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":453.192,"endTime":454.971,"body":"but just tracking a little bit with it,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":455.632,"endTime":458.232,"body":"major players in the history of the mechanical clock"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":458.831,"endTime":460.492,"body":"were the Benedictine monks."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":460.492,"endTime":460.891,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":460.891,"endTime":463.372,"body":"Yeah, and the Benedictine monks, trying to"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":463.372,"endTime":467.752,"body":"order their community, order their communal life, order their"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":467.752,"endTime":473.411,"body":"day around work and worship. And so the clock was ordered, or was"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":473.411,"endTime":476.482,"body":"used to, you know, clocks and bells, to,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":477.172,"endTime":480.232,"body":"bring you to worship, [chuckles] to bring you to work, bring you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":480.232,"endTime":484.091,"body":"back to worship, you know, and continue your labors. They even"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":484.091,"endTime":487.512,"body":"made some time-saving devices beyond the clock. But it's"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":487.512,"endTime":490.172,"body":"really fascinating, you look at the history of the clock,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":490.172,"endTime":494.211,"body":"Benedictine monks are kind of all over it. And what I find"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":494.211,"endTime":496.692,"body":"interesting about that, apart from just the historical"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":496.692,"endTime":501.211,"body":"interest, is the origin of the clock, it had a,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":501.971,"endTime":502.791,"body":"a telos"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":503.351,"endTime":507.012,"body":"or an aim, or it ha- it was situated within eternity. It"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":507.012,"endTime":509.632,"body":"wasn't just... You know, when I talked to my session, it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":509.632,"endTime":512.731,"body":"just, horizontal time, [chuckles] and it wasn't the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":512.731,"endTime":515.532,"body":"work-a-day time of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, 8-00 a.m.,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":515.532,"endTime":517.331,"body":"9-00 a.m. It was really time"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":517.971,"endTime":522.25,"body":"intersecting with eternity, time intersecting with worship, time"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":522.25,"endTime":526.072,"body":"intersecting with God and with the redemption"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":526.072,"endTime":527.272,"body":"we have in Jesus. And so"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":528.192,"endTime":529.841,"body":"it's really captured my imagination"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":530.451,"endTime":535.792,"body":"to think, how can we see a clock and not just see the linear"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":535.792,"endTime":538.922,"body":"passage of time, but how can our clocks help us see time"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":539.932,"endTime":543.312,"body":"and eternity or this rhythm of work and worship?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":543.312,"endTime":545.251,"body":"Yeah, no, that's, that's such a good insight in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":545.251,"endTime":548.951,"body":"terms of the way clocks were originally designed- -to connect"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":548.951,"endTime":552.912,"body":"us to God and to ensure that we made space in our lives to do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":552.912,"endTime":556.231,"body":"that regularly. It seems like clocks do something-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":556.231,"endTime":556.402,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":556.402,"endTime":557.971,"body":"-quite the opposite today."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":557.971,"endTime":558.032,"body":"We are."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":558.032,"endTime":559.851,"body":"Tell us a little bit about more about the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":560.951,"endTime":565.312,"body":"you know, how has that shaped our approach to time today? And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":565.312,"endTime":567.552,"body":"I think, I think you're right. It is just part of the air that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":567.552,"endTime":568.111,"body":"we breathe."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":568.111,"endTime":568.611,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":568.611,"endTime":571.672,"body":"But usually, the air that we breathe is also the th-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":571.672,"endTime":574.432,"body":"some of the things that have shaped us the most deeply."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":574.432,"endTime":576.692,"body":"Absolutely. And I'm, I'm just really curious in"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":576.692,"endTime":577.022,"body":"the,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":577.692,"endTime":582.072,"body":"phrases and language we put around time, so we are obsessed,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":582.072,"endTime":585.251,"body":"and I think our devices are hugely- they're"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":585.251,"endTime":589.591,"body":"marketed to us as this. We are obsessed with saving time, you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":589.591,"endTime":591.312,"body":"know, this idea of saving time, and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":592.111,"endTime":595.032,"body":"maybe 'cause I'm a theologian, but boy, there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":595.032,"endTime":597.871,"body":"soteriological language there, right? [chuckles] Salvation,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":597.871,"endTime":598.432,"body":"saving."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":598.432,"endTime":598.812,"body":"Yes. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":598.812,"endTime":601.032,"body":"We, we desperately want to save this"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":601.032,"endTime":604.371,"body":"thing, but then what do we do? We turn around and we use"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":604.371,"endTime":607.432,"body":"the very same devices to kill time,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":608.032,"endTime":609.631,"body":"and it's just fascinating to me that-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":609.631,"endTime":609.812,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":609.812,"endTime":609.892,"body":"... That-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":609.892,"endTime":610.912,"body":"Or, or to waste time."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":610.912,"endTime":611.812,"body":"That's what I mean, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":611.812,"endTime":611.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":611.861,"endTime":613.851,"body":"Yeah, and it's fascinating that there's a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":613.851,"endTime":617.412,"body":"massive market, there's a massive interest"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":617.932,"endTime":621.631,"body":"in both saving time and killing time, and these devices are,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":621.631,"endTime":625.251,"body":"are, you know, carried around with us for both of those"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":625.251,"endTime":628.692,"body":"things. What I'm really intrigued by is, can we inject"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":628.692,"endTime":632.991,"body":"new language into that? Ephesians 5-16, you know, making"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":632.991,"endTime":636.731,"body":"the best use of the time, or and I don't often use this"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":636.731,"endTime":639.111,"body":"translation, but the King James has a beautiful way of putting"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":639.111,"endTime":640.851,"body":"it, redeeming time."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":640.851,"endTime":641.251,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":641.251,"endTime":643.572,"body":"And I just love that idea of redeeming time-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":643.572,"endTime":644.871,"body":"That's, that's your salvation language."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":644.871,"endTime":645.741,"body":"Yeah, exactly!"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":645.741,"endTime":645.77,"body":"Right. Gotcha."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":645.77,"endTime":648.971,"body":"Yeah, yeah. And so it's kind of neat where,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":648.971,"endTime":651.591,"body":"again, as a theologian, maybe, or a rhetorician, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":651.591,"endTime":656.491,"body":"but I just wonder, is there this innate sense within all of us"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":656.491,"endTime":660.251,"body":"that time needs to be saved? And, and does that, in"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":660.251,"endTime":663.27,"body":"some way, then, you know, point us to Jesus and the one who has"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":663.831,"endTime":667.331,"body":"redeemed time, not just, linear time and horizontal time-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":667.331,"endTime":667.341,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":667.341,"endTime":669.032,"body":"... But vertical time, you know, eternal"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":669.032,"endTime":669.951,"body":"time. And,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":670.812,"endTime":672.152,"body":"yeah, all that from a clock, right? [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":672.152,"endTime":674.981,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sure you're aware"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":674.981,"endTime":677.162,"body":"of this because you've studied this more than I have, but the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":677.162,"endTime":680.351,"body":"the word for time used in Ephesians 5 is actually not the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":680.351,"endTime":681.331,"body":"term chronos-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":681.331,"endTime":681.361,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":681.361,"endTime":682.751,"body":"... For chronological, but the term"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":682.751,"endTime":683.371,"body":"kairos."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":683.371,"endTime":684.052,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":684.052,"endTime":686.27,"body":"Which is for, I think, best translated as make"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":686.27,"endTime":687.871,"body":"the most of the opportunity."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":687.871,"endTime":688.552,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":688.552,"endTime":691.131,"body":"And, you know, kairos in ancient, in the- to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":691.131,"endTime":693.591,"body":"the ancient Greeks, as you know, was the little god with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":693.591,"endTime":695.312,"body":"the shock of hair in the back."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":695.312,"endTime":695.331,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":695.331,"endTime":697.751,"body":"And you- he ran at you full speed ahead, and you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":697.751,"endTime":699.442,"body":"did the best you could to try and grab it."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":699.442,"endTime":699.831,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":699.831,"endTime":701.052,"body":"And most of the time, you couldn't."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":701.052,"endTime":702.072,"body":"Yep, yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":702.072,"endTime":705.351,"body":"And so it, but it refers more to not missing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":705.351,"endTime":706.871,"body":"out on opportunities."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":707.532,"endTime":711.211,"body":"So how does that connect with our view of time and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":711.211,"endTime":711.991,"body":"how clocks"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":712.532,"endTime":713.711,"body":"integrate into that?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":713.711,"endTime":715.471,"body":"I, yeah, I think that's exactly right, and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":715.471,"endTime":715.831,"body":"I think"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":716.652,"endTime":719.172,"body":"as I've wrestled with this more and talked more on the topic"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":720.032,"endTime":722.412,"body":"and then connecting it to devices, really what I think"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":722.412,"endTime":723.491,"body":"we're struggling with"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":724.072,"endTime":726.629,"body":"is a truncated-... View of time"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":727.259,"endTime":731.139,"body":"and a truncated view of our devices. And it's sort of like,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":731.139,"endTime":734.759,"body":"you know, truncated or myopic or sh- or nearsighted or"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":734.759,"endTime":738.879,"body":"something like that, where we're just seeing one dimension of it,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":738.879,"endTime":743.419,"body":"but not the fullness of it. And that's where, again, I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":743.419,"endTime":745.938,"body":"think, time and time again, I think,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":747.399,"endTime":751.958,"body":"thinking biblically or the resources of Christian"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":751.958,"endTime":752.619,"body":"theology"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":753.359,"endTime":756.078,"body":"need to be brought to bear into these conversations because"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":756.078,"endTime":758.679,"body":"there is just simply a dynamic"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":759.379,"endTime":760.818,"body":"that won't be had otherwise."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":761.399,"endTime":764.438,"body":"And, and what's going to invite us to think hieratically about"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":764.438,"endTime":767.419,"body":"time, apart from eternity?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":767.419,"endTime":769.059,"body":"Yeah, probably not much."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":769.059,"endTime":770.099,"body":"I, [chuckles] I can't-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":770.099,"endTime":770.119,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":770.119,"endTime":771.489,"body":"I'm not expecting Apple to,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":772.139,"endTime":774.869,"body":"to help us lift our gaze higher. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":774.869,"endTime":776.109,"body":"No. No. So here's- maybe"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":776.759,"endTime":779.979,"body":"this just, think with me about this for a moment. We have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":779.979,"endTime":785.119,"body":"so many time-save, time-saving devices, yet we have less time"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":785.119,"endTime":787.279,"body":"on our hands than we've ever had before in the history of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":787.279,"endTime":788.119,"body":"civilization."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":788.119,"endTime":788.438,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":788.438,"endTime":789.479,"body":"Why is that?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":790.139,"endTime":792.399,"body":"I think we've lost the narrative, is kind of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":792.399,"endTime":796.039,"body":"what I've suggested to people. That, that just like you're"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":796.039,"endTime":802.019,"body":"describing, the progress of our devices has gone up and up and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":802.019,"endTime":805.438,"body":"up, or we have more and more and more of these, but if you ask"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":805.438,"endTime":809.139,"body":"your typical person, \"Do you have more time for leisure? Do"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":809.139,"endTime":811.839,"body":"you have more time for laughter? Do you have more time for"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":811.839,"endTime":813.979,"body":"reflection? Do you have more time for,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":815.119,"endTime":817.919,"body":"I don't know, a long, unhurried worship service?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":817.919,"endTime":821.599,"body":"[chuckles] do you have more time for, a neighbor,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":822.179,"endTime":824.839,"body":"interrupting you from what you were planning to do, to just"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":824.839,"endTime":827.49,"body":"care for that neighbor?\" Like, most people are going to say,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":827.49,"endTime":830.119,"body":"\"No, I don't have more time for that.\" And that tells me"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":830.719,"endTime":832.198,"body":"somehow the promises"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":833.0,"endTime":836.74,"body":"that have been made to us about these devices, or the tacit"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":836.74,"endTime":840.179,"body":"assumption we have when we buy them and put them around us,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":840.179,"endTime":845.179,"body":"somehow it's failed. And that's where I think, I think we need,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":846.0,"endTime":849.479,"body":"what I talked about in my session is, not seeking"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":849.479,"endTime":853.719,"body":"technological fixes to technological problems. Or"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":853.719,"endTime":856.639,"body":"one scholar, Shannon Vallor, she talks about it like,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":857.24,"endTime":860.438,"body":"digging your way out of a hole. [chuckles] you can't do that,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":860.438,"endTime":862.789,"body":"right? And so we need something to,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":863.759,"endTime":866.719,"body":"flip the script or change the paradigm. And again, I think"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":866.719,"endTime":868.369,"body":"that's where thinking biblically, thinking"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":868.369,"endTime":874.539,"body":"theologically on this, bringing, resources beyond horizontal"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":874.539,"endTime":878.299,"body":"time, beyond just the ubiquity of the devices that we use, we"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":878.299,"endTime":879.5,"body":"need something else."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":880.099,"endTime":882.399,"body":"And of course, I think that's, that's the revelation of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":882.399,"endTime":882.938,"body":"Scripture-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":882.938,"endTime":882.948,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":882.948,"endTime":885.74,"body":"... That's the good news of the Gospel, that's"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":885.74,"endTime":888.619,"body":"the hope of redemption, you know,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":889.198,"endTime":892.0,"body":"in Christ Jesus for the life of the world, but also in our own"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":892.0,"endTime":896.769,"body":"lives. I think that's, that's the skeleton key"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":897.519,"endTime":900.078,"body":"that helps us, you know, as I've talked about it before,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":900.078,"endTime":903.599,"body":"it helps us have an unhurried relationship with time."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":903.599,"endTime":905.74,"body":"All right, let's be a little more specific about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":905.74,"endTime":907.339,"body":"this. I think our listeners"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":907.919,"endTime":911.458,"body":"would wanna know, \"How, how do I, how do I get started"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":912.719,"endTime":913.599,"body":"making this work?\""},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":913.599,"endTime":914.139,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":914.139,"endTime":917.458,"body":"What, what specific steps would you recommend to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":917.458,"endTime":920.698,"body":"make it happen so that your devices actually work for you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":920.698,"endTime":921.659,"body":"instead of vice versa?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":921.659,"endTime":922.879,"body":"Yep. I appreciate that."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":923.659,"endTime":926.279,"body":"One of the things is, we have to recognize these devices are all"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":926.279,"endTime":930.479,"body":"designed. Somebody has designed them to be used in a particular"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":930.479,"endTime":934.0,"body":"way. And oftentimes, they're, they're, they're designed for,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":934.578,"endTime":937.599,"body":"you know, user experience, maximizing that. More"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":937.599,"endTime":940.24,"body":"nefariously, they're, they're designed for addiction"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":940.24,"endTime":943.318,"body":"[chuckles] and they're designed for maximum engagement, you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":943.318,"endTime":946.779,"body":"know, and that sort of thing. But because they're designed, I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":946.779,"endTime":949.24,"body":"think we can then use our own agency"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":950.359,"endTime":954.679,"body":"to not quite redesign them, but exert that agency on them."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":954.679,"endTime":958.578,"body":"So a very practical thing that I often like to tell people-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":958.578,"endTime":960.159,"body":"setting your phone to grayscale"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":960.958,"endTime":964.919,"body":"is one of the easiest things you can do. I don't suggest"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":964.919,"endTime":967.639,"body":"leaving your phone on grayscale all the time, unless you're a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":967.639,"endTime":971.099,"body":"glutton for punishment. You're welcome to do that. But when you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":971.099,"endTime":974.299,"body":"put your phone on grayscale, what it does is your brain"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":974.299,"endTime":977.719,"body":"is addicted to the colors. It's been designed into the whole"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":977.719,"endTime":980.5,"body":"interface, but your brain is addicted to the colors. When"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":980.5,"endTime":983.938,"body":"you put it on grayscale, it short-circuits that addiction."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":983.938,"endTime":987.039,"body":"You don't get that dopamine hit from the colors. And what really"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":987.039,"endTime":990.48,"body":"ends up happening, you start using your phone for the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":990.48,"endTime":993.099,"body":"purposes for which you have a phone. [chuckles] You call"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":993.099,"endTime":996.559,"body":"people, you send simple text messages, but no"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":996.559,"endTime":1000.818,"body":"longer than is necessary. You may check urgent emails, but not"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1000.818,"endTime":1002.078,"body":"writing, you know,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1002.639,"endTime":1003.919,"body":"War and Peace on your phone."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1003.919,"endTime":1004.859,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1004.859,"endTime":1005.23,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1006.22,"endTime":1008.48,"body":"doomscrolling and zombiew scrolling, you know, on social"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1008.48,"endTime":1012.099,"body":"media stops. And that's just a really simple way when you find"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1012.099,"endTime":1016.839,"body":"yourself, addicted to this more than you want to be. And that's-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1016.839,"endTime":1017.568,"body":"I like that idea"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1018.099,"endTime":1021.039,"body":"because it's not me saying, \"Throw your phone out the, out"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1021.039,"endTime":1021.948,"body":"the window.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1021.948,"endTime":1021.958,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1021.958,"endTime":1025.24,"body":"It's not saying, you know, \"Get rid of it.\" but"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1025.24,"endTime":1027.659,"body":"it is saying, \"Here's a simple way that you can exert some"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1027.659,"endTime":1033.019,"body":"agency against it, or redesign it in a small way.\" I have my"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1033.019,"endTime":1036.039,"body":"phone set so that with a triple click, it instantly goes to"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1036.039,"endTime":1040.358,"body":"grayscale. And so really, on the fly or throughout the day, if I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1040.358,"endTime":1041.098,"body":"need to focus"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1041.96,"endTime":1044.5,"body":"or if I find myself, you know, maybe checking it more than I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1044.5,"endTime":1046.628,"body":"ought, putting it on grayscale for an hour"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1047.42,"endTime":1048.878,"body":"short-circuits that whole thing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1048.878,"endTime":1048.898,"body":"Works."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1048.898,"endTime":1051.019,"body":"Yeah. So I think that's, that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1051.019,"endTime":1053.619,"body":"easiest, practical kind of things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1053.619,"endTime":1055.92,"body":"All right, and you also suggest periodic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1056.559,"endTime":1057.638,"body":"techno fasts."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1057.638,"endTime":1058.179,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1058.179,"endTime":1058.638,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1058.638,"endTime":1058.859,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1058.859,"endTime":1060.96,"body":"How do you get started on that?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1060.96,"endTime":1063.039,"body":"It's very simple. I think one of the ways"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1063.039,"endTime":1065.779,"body":"that you... The, the first step to the fasting thing would"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1065.779,"endTime":1068.22,"body":"really be what some people call,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1069.179,"endTime":1075.0,"body":"a, an, a technology audit, and that is, in some way finding,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1075.0,"endTime":1078.019,"body":"counting something that is relevant to you related to your"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1078.019,"endTime":1081.652,"body":"devices.... So many phones actually do this. It tells you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1081.652,"endTime":1082.811,"body":"screen time usage."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1082.811,"endTime":1082.892,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1082.892,"endTime":1085.991,"body":"You can do that. If you really wanna, you know,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1085.991,"endTime":1087.642,"body":"be, sadistic, you can,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1088.211,"endTime":1090.451,"body":"count how many times you turn on your phone in the day, like"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1090.451,"endTime":1093.211,"body":"unlock it, and that kind of thing, and just have a piece of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1093.211,"endTime":1096.611,"body":"paper and a tally mark. You can do that. You can count how many"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1096.611,"endTime":1099.311,"body":"internet-connected devices you have in your home, whatever it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1099.311,"endTime":1101.422,"body":"is you wanna do, but do an audit. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1101.422,"endTime":1103.132,"body":"This is all much too convicting. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1103.132,"endTime":1103.942,"body":"I know. I know."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1104.652,"endTime":1106.371,"body":"We'll, we'll get to Jesus, but we're talking about the,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1106.892,"endTime":1110.251,"body":"the institution of the law here first, right? But you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1110.251,"endTime":1113.011,"body":"can do that audit, and then I think just ask the question,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1113.011,"endTime":1116.711,"body":"whether it's by yourself or, you know, with, family or"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1116.711,"endTime":1119.491,"body":"something like that, but ask the question- \"Yeah, what do I think"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1119.491,"endTime":1121.851,"body":"about this? Is this an appropriate number? Is this"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1121.851,"endTime":1125.211,"body":"right? Is this good?\" Whatever, and then thoughtfully say- \"What"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1125.211,"endTime":1127.211,"body":"would it look like for,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1128.412,"endTime":1132.83,"body":"a day of my week, or a period of my day, or something like that,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1132.83,"endTime":1134.461,"body":"to be free of screens?\""},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1134.991,"endTime":1138.412,"body":"or I think that the idea of fasting, it can be even smaller"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1138.412,"endTime":1141.451,"body":"than that, and I'll tell you kind of a personal example. I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1141.451,"endTime":1145.392,"body":"found for a period of time that I would wake up... My phone's my"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1145.392,"endTime":1149.751,"body":"alarm clock, like many people. I would wake up, the very first"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1149.751,"endTime":1152.132,"body":"thing, and I joke with people that I'm, I'm so"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1152.132,"endTime":1154.531,"body":"habituated, I'm, I'm like a well-trained lab rat-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1154.531,"endTime":1154.721,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1154.721,"endTime":1156.451,"body":"... That the first 10 things I do in the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1156.451,"endTime":1160.571,"body":"morning are identical every morning. And I would wake up,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1160.571,"endTime":1163.392,"body":"and almost immediately, I'm embarrassed how almost"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1163.392,"endTime":1165.851,"body":"immediately, but the, one of the first things I was doing was"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1165.851,"endTime":1168.791,"body":"checking my email. And it was one of those things where as I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1168.791,"endTime":1171.511,"body":"thought about that, I just thought, \"That is horrible.\""},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1171.511,"endTime":1172.221,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1172.221,"endTime":1172.321,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1172.321,"endTime":1172.951,"body":"\"That is, that is just a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1173.511,"endTime":1177.491,"body":"horrible existence to open my eyes, and this is the first"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1177.491,"endTime":1178.711,"body":"thing I do.\" So"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1179.771,"endTime":1182.471,"body":"whether you wanna call it a fast or you wanna call it,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1183.132,"endTime":1184.632,"body":"redesigning or a change-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1184.632,"endTime":1184.851,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1184.851,"endTime":1186.791,"body":"... But I said, \"You know what? The first thing"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1186.791,"endTime":1189.871,"body":"I'm gonna do is...\" my congregation has a big emphasis"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1189.871,"endTime":1192.83,"body":"on personal Bible reading and daily Bible reading. \"The"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1192.83,"endTime":1195.632,"body":"first thing I'm gonna do, the second I wake up, I'm starting"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1195.632,"endTime":1198.451,"body":"my audio Bible, while I'm drinking my coffee, four"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1198.451,"endTime":1202.111,"body":"chapters of the Bible. After that, after I've had my coffee,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1202.111,"endTime":1204.652,"body":"after I've started the Word of God, then I spend some time on"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1204.652,"endTime":1205.571,"body":"Duolingo-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1205.571,"endTime":1205.761,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1205.761,"endTime":1208.01,"body":"... Learning a new language. After"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1208.01,"endTime":1211.33,"body":"that, okay, then maybe I'll get to checking my email.\" But it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1211.33,"endTime":1213.412,"body":"was a very intentional order of operation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1213.412,"endTime":1213.83,"body":"That's good."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1213.83,"endTime":1215.192,"body":"Yeah, and I just... It was a really-- And"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1215.192,"endTime":1217.311,"body":"like I said, I'm such a habit"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1217.891,"endTime":1221.33,"body":"person [chuckles] that if I made that change for a week, it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1221.33,"endTime":1222.231,"body":"stuck."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1222.231,"endTime":1223.621,"body":"Yeah. No, that's very practical."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1223.621,"endTime":1223.632,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1223.632,"endTime":1224.891,"body":"I think very helpful."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1224.891,"endTime":1225.231,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1225.231,"endTime":1226.991,"body":"And so those are those, I think, some good steps,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1226.991,"endTime":1228.471,"body":"I think, that our listeners will appreciate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1229.071,"endTime":1233.09,"body":"if they find themselves in the same kind of dilemma and have, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1233.09,"endTime":1234.942,"body":"think, have the courage to admit- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1234.942,"endTime":1235.251,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1235.251,"endTime":1236.371,"body":"... That that's where they are."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1236.371,"endTime":1237.851,"body":"I'm, I'm right there with everybody else, so."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1237.851,"endTime":1239.811,"body":"Now, one of the devices you've thought a lot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1239.811,"endTime":1241.612,"body":"about is artificial intelligence,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1242.991,"endTime":1247.571,"body":"and you've given us what you call AI maps. So just briefly"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1247.571,"endTime":1250.571,"body":"tell us what you mean by that, and how is that helpful in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1250.571,"endTime":1253.692,"body":"understanding what AI brings to the table?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1253.692,"endTime":1257.051,"body":"So AI maps, these are not maps made by AI,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1257.051,"endTime":1259.412,"body":"but rather AI maps, what I mean by that is"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1260.391,"endTime":1261.83,"body":"conceptual frameworks"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1262.612,"endTime":1264.811,"body":"or visualizations to help us"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1265.371,"endTime":1268.652,"body":"think through artificial intelligence. And, and I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1268.652,"endTime":1271.152,"body":"literally, I mean, this is something you could draw on a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1271.152,"endTime":1275.711,"body":"whiteboard in a meeting, in a classroom, or in a church"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1275.711,"endTime":1278.871,"body":"board meeting. This is something you could draw on a napkin, you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1278.871,"endTime":1282.192,"body":"know, having coffee with a friend. But, but a framework"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1283.152,"endTime":1285.891,"body":"to visualize some aspect"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1286.551,"endTime":1288.8,"body":"of artificial intelligence, and I don't mean"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1289.751,"endTime":1292.83,"body":"how it works. I'm not talking about, you know, here's a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1292.83,"endTime":1297.211,"body":"schematic for how AI works. What I mean is, these are"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1297.211,"endTime":1299.701,"body":"frameworks, visual frameworks,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1300.391,"endTime":1301.711,"body":"that enable us to"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1302.612,"endTime":1306.33,"body":"view something about the way AI is being deployed in the world"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1306.33,"endTime":1306.851,"body":"around us."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1306.851,"endTime":1307.432,"body":"I see."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1307.432,"endTime":1308.891,"body":"And that's really what maps are, right?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1308.891,"endTime":1313.891,"body":"Like, there's the territory, and the territory is the thing, but"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1313.891,"endTime":1317.33,"body":"we use a map, which is a representation of the territory,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1317.33,"endTime":1321.121,"body":"and we use maps for specific purposes. Like, there are road"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1321.121,"endTime":1321.59,"body":"maps,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1322.412,"endTime":1325.811,"body":"and there are topographical maps, and there are, you know,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1325.811,"endTime":1327.33,"body":"underground cable maps,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1328.162,"endTime":1332.031,"body":"and natural resource maps, and one of those won't help"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1332.031,"endTime":1333.221,"body":"you navigate the road [chuckles] ."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1333.221,"endTime":1333.231,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1333.231,"endTime":1333.751,"body":"You know? Like..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1333.751,"endTime":1334.051,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1334.051,"endTime":1335.33,"body":"... You can't use the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1335.33,"endTime":1337.071,"body":"underground cable map for the road,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1337.891,"endTime":1338.412,"body":"but it's a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1339.132,"endTime":1342.071,"body":"emphasizing one thing to help you see something that's maybe"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1342.071,"endTime":1343.932,"body":"hard to see in the territory itself."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1343.932,"endTime":1344.291,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1344.291,"endTime":1344.771,"body":"And, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1344.771,"endTime":1347.071,"body":"That's helpful. Now, you described, there are a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1347.071,"endTime":1350.652,"body":"couple technical terms that you used that I, that I found very"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1350.652,"endTime":1351.172,"body":"helpful."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1351.741,"endTime":1354.112,"body":"And so I want a listener- I want our listeners to hear about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1354.112,"endTime":1356.271,"body":"those. The Gartner Hype Cycle"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1357.192,"endTime":1361.731,"body":"is one concept that I found very enlightening. How-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1361.731,"endTime":1365.932,"body":"what is that, and how is that helpful in understanding AI?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1365.932,"endTime":1367.971,"body":"Yeah, so in some of these maps, you know, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1367.971,"endTime":1371.09,"body":"the sole originator of these. One of them is coming out of my"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1371.09,"endTime":1374.571,"body":"PhD dissertation, but the Gartner Hype Cycle, it comes"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1374.571,"endTime":1377.521,"body":"from a company, Gartner, and they do,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1378.172,"endTime":1381.511,"body":"technology consulting, and I think we can kind of tweak"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1381.511,"endTime":1385.211,"body":"what they have. It's also interesting what this hype"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1385.211,"endTime":1389.751,"body":"cycle, it looks like a lot of other maps that have been drawn"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1389.751,"endTime":1393.162,"body":"in different fields. So I think it's really kind of revealing"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1393.162,"endTime":1395.912,"body":"not just something about new technologies, not just something"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1395.912,"endTime":1396.641,"body":"about,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1398.83,"endTime":1401.711,"body":"any AI, it kind of reveals something about humans."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1401.711,"endTime":1405.692,"body":"[chuckles] And what it is this new thing happens, and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1405.692,"endTime":1408.371,"body":"collectively or individualistically, there's a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1408.371,"endTime":1409.932,"body":"swell in expectation"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1410.811,"endTime":1415.011,"body":"or a swell in hype, and before long, very quickly, it's sort of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1415.011,"endTime":1418.991,"body":"like, [exhales] this changes everything. But pretty soon,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1418.991,"endTime":1422.112,"body":"then what happens is, you fall into this, trough,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1422.112,"endTime":1424.211,"body":"[chuckles] trough of disillusionment, this"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1424.211,"endTime":1427.771,"body":"downward decline of you kind of realize, \"Oh, maybe not."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1427.771,"endTime":1430.652,"body":"[chuckles] maybe this thing is more glitchy than we thought it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1430.652,"endTime":1433.491,"body":"was. Maybe it's, it's not gonna change the world the way we"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1433.491,"endTime":1435.511,"body":"thought it would. You know, maybe it's,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1436.731,"endTime":1439.851,"body":"not what we expected.\" But then what happens is,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1439.851,"endTime":1445.355,"body":"iteratively, slowly, progress is made where it-... Increases"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1445.355,"endTime":1448.395,"body":"its ability and gets better and better. And so it's, it's kinda"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1448.395,"endTime":1451.895,"body":"like a rollercoaster, [chuckles] where when a new technology"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1451.895,"endTime":1454.536,"body":"comes out, there's an immediate hype."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1455.215,"endTime":1457.236,"body":"And you see this in the headlines all the time, like,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1457.236,"endTime":1457.695,"body":"\"AI-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1457.695,"endTime":1457.705,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1457.705,"endTime":1458.796,"body":"Is going to change the world.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1458.796,"endTime":1459.935,"body":"This is a game changer."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1459.935,"endTime":1461.816,"body":"This is a game changer yesterday, and you're"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1461.816,"endTime":1465.056,"body":"behind. [chuckles] You know, and there's this hype. And then y-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1465.056,"endTime":1469.056,"body":"we also see this where, you know, AI-generated images and,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1469.056,"endTime":1471.115,"body":"and there's a person, and they've got, you know, three"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1471.115,"endTime":1472.395,"body":"eyes or-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1472.395,"endTime":1472.596,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1472.596,"endTime":1474.336,"body":"... You know, an extra thumb or something like"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1474.336,"endTime":1476.325,"body":"that, and that's that disillusionment of like,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1476.325,"endTime":1480.855,"body":"\"Really? This is the thing that's gonna change it all.\" But"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1480.855,"endTime":1482.516,"body":"also, what happens, we have to be open"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1483.316,"endTime":1487.576,"body":"to the incremental improvements after that disillusionment. And"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1487.576,"endTime":1490.355,"body":"so I just find that to be very helpful, especially for"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1490.355,"endTime":1492.226,"body":"something practical, like reading the headlines"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1493.115,"endTime":1496.615,"body":"or, you know, water cooler conversation with people, where"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1496.615,"endTime":1500.096,"body":"when you hear this hype, you know, kinda jokingly, I say"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1500.096,"endTime":1502.746,"body":"like, \"Well, keep your shirt on.\" Like, it's- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1502.746,"endTime":1502.746,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1502.746,"endTime":1505.895,"body":"... It's not gonna change it today, but"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1505.895,"endTime":1508.566,"body":"realistically, we should say over time-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1508.566,"endTime":1508.655,"body":"May-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1508.655,"endTime":1509.695,"body":"There will be change coming."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1509.695,"endTime":1510.375,"body":"Maybe so."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1510.375,"endTime":1511.056,"body":"Exactly. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1511.056,"endTime":1513.976,"body":"Okay. Now, how is that...? You also talk about,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1513.976,"endTime":1517.935,"body":"nothing called Amara's Law. And tell us a little bit about that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1517.935,"endTime":1520.056,"body":"and how that relates to what you've just said."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1520.056,"endTime":1522.236,"body":"They, they are pretty similar, talking about"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1522.236,"endTime":1527.336,"body":"slightly different things. But a technology scholar, a Roy Amara,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1527.336,"endTime":1531.195,"body":"he says this, that the tendency is when new technologies come"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1531.195,"endTime":1532.016,"body":"out, we"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1532.576,"endTime":1536.185,"body":"overestimate the impact, which is kind of a form of hype."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1536.185,"endTime":1536.215,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1536.215,"endTime":1539.776,"body":"We overestimate the impact in the short term,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1539.776,"endTime":1544.736,"body":"and we underestimate the impact in the long term. So, we"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1544.736,"endTime":1547.635,"body":"say, the, a great example of this is really the printing"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1547.635,"endTime":1548.036,"body":"press."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1548.615,"endTime":1551.816,"body":"There were people, when the printing press came out, they"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1551.816,"endTime":1555.016,"body":"were arguing, \"This is the end of reading.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1555.016,"endTime":1556.175,"body":"Oh! [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1556.175,"endTime":1557.756,"body":"Yeah. [chuckles] This is the end of reading. This"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1557.756,"endTime":1559.236,"body":"is the end of books because-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1559.236,"endTime":1560.415,"body":"I always thought, I always thought it was the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1560.415,"endTime":1561.155,"body":"beginning of reading. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1561.155,"endTime":1561.435,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1562.135,"endTime":1565.816,"body":"in the short term, the impact being overblown."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1565.816,"endTime":1565.915,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1565.915,"endTime":1568.236,"body":"And it was the idea that like, if writing"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1568.236,"endTime":1570.976,"body":"and books can be so cheaply had,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1571.536,"endTime":1573.234,"body":"like, it's just gonna be trash, it's gonna be garbage."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1573.234,"endTime":1573.276,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1573.276,"endTime":1575.836,"body":"Nobody's gonna care. And so, like, the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1575.836,"endTime":1578.516,"body":"scriptoriums and writing houses,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1579.195,"endTime":1580.715,"body":"many of them were sorta arguing like,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1581.576,"endTime":1583.496,"body":"\"All right, fine, but it's your death, right? [chuckles] It's"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1583.496,"endTime":1587.496,"body":"your funeral,\" in the short term. So it was overblown. And"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1587.496,"endTime":1590.655,"body":"what do we find is, historically, that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1590.655,"endTime":1593.885,"body":"these writing houses, these scriptoriums, they were,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1594.576,"endTime":1596.935,"body":"continuing to do their work. People were still paying them to"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1596.935,"endTime":1600.256,"body":"do what they were doing, as a lot of them were getting"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1600.256,"endTime":1602.996,"body":"printing presses, [chuckles] as they were learning a new trade,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1602.996,"endTime":1606.756,"body":"a new skill. So the fears were overblown in the short term. And"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1606.756,"endTime":1609.615,"body":"then you, like you mentioned, then you realize, you know,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1609.615,"endTime":1610.536,"body":"Gutenberg's invention"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1611.135,"endTime":1614.875,"body":"changed the world in the long term, and the paradigm"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1614.875,"endTime":1615.195,"body":"shift"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1616.016,"endTime":1619.596,"body":"over time was underestimated. And so I think that's another"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1619.596,"endTime":1623.865,"body":"helpful way to think of AI, is again, these emerging"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1623.865,"endTime":1627.576,"body":"technologies, in the short term, we can't expect them to change"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1627.576,"endTime":1629.816,"body":"everything in a month, even though the headlines read like"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1629.816,"endTime":1634.195,"body":"that. But it is wise to kinda stay the course in the short"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1634.195,"endTime":1638.536,"body":"term, while planning and recognizing that a brave"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1638.536,"endTime":1638.984,"body":"new world-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1638.984,"endTime":1638.984,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1638.984,"endTime":1641.596,"body":"... [chuckles] may be there too in the future."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1641.596,"endTime":1645.415,"body":"And so that tension or that paradox of staying the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1645.415,"endTime":1647.895,"body":"course and planning for a paradigm shift."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1647.895,"endTime":1649.875,"body":"I think that's, that's a really helpful balance,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1649.875,"endTime":1654.076,"body":"to keep from being sucked in by the hype, but also not get"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1654.076,"endTime":1656.516,"body":"caught off guard and having been left behind-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1656.516,"endTime":1656.526,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1656.526,"endTime":1657.215,"body":"... If something does"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1657.855,"endTime":1660.976,"body":"ki- you know, come to pass in the way that, people are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1660.976,"endTime":1661.816,"body":"thinking it might."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1661.816,"endTime":1663.695,"body":"And I think it's, it's helpful for churches,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1663.695,"endTime":1666.175,"body":"for institutions of higher education, all of them, to"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1666.175,"endTime":1669.155,"body":"kinda... How do you plan for both of these things at the same"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1669.155,"endTime":1670.556,"body":"time?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1670.556,"endTime":1673.536,"body":"Yeah, now, you're trained as a theologian."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1673.536,"endTime":1678.036,"body":"How does your theology inform your own engagement with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1678.036,"endTime":1679.336,"body":"artificial intelligence?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1681.234,"endTime":1683.195,"body":"That's a great question, a difficult one to"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1683.195,"endTime":1689.256,"body":"kinda reduce down singularly. I do think a place to start, one"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1689.256,"endTime":1692.016,"body":"of the insights I've, I've just continued to bring to bear"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1692.556,"endTime":1696.155,"body":"from theology into technology... And I come from the Lutheran"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1696.155,"endTime":1699.496,"body":"tradition, and Martin Luther talks, in his"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1699.496,"endTime":1702.796,"body":"explanation of the First Commandment. He says, \"A, a God"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1703.375,"endTime":1708.596,"body":"is whatever you fear, love, and trust in above all else.\" And I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1708.596,"endTime":1711.155,"body":"find that just to be helpful as kind of a litmus test when it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1711.155,"endTime":1711.875,"body":"comes to AI,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1712.836,"endTime":1716.056,"body":"or devices, whatever you wanna think about. But if you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1716.056,"endTime":1720.296,"body":"fear, love, and trust in it above all else, maybe you've got"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1720.296,"endTime":1724.276,"body":"a god, [chuckles] a false god, an idol. But the other side of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1724.276,"endTime":1727.375,"body":"it's kinda curious, too. Like AI, there's so much fear around"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1727.375,"endTime":1731.476,"body":"that, and it's kinda curious that if you ultimately fear"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1732.076,"endTime":1735.175,"body":"AI, and when I say ultimately, I mean, like, in an ultimate"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1735.175,"endTime":1739.796,"body":"sense, it, too, has become your god in some weird way. That it"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1739.796,"endTime":1743.875,"body":"gets the final word [chuckles] on all things. And so I just, I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1743.875,"endTime":1744.875,"body":"do think that there's a,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1746.375,"endTime":1749.556,"body":"a spirit-filled breath [chuckles] that theology brings"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1749.556,"endTime":1752.195,"body":"into conversations about technology, a spirit-filled"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1752.195,"endTime":1752.435,"body":"breath"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1752.976,"endTime":1756.875,"body":"that theology brings into to conversations about AI,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1756.875,"endTime":1759.915,"body":"that helps us kind of keep it in its proper place."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1759.915,"endTime":1761.734,"body":"Oh, and would that we had a little bit more of that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1762.355,"endTime":1763.655,"body":"when it came to AI-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1763.655,"endTime":1763.915,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1763.915,"endTime":1764.715,"body":"... At present."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1764.715,"endTime":1764.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1764.976,"endTime":1766.476,"body":"And I think that's, that's the part that's being"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1766.476,"endTime":1767.435,"body":"left out."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1767.435,"endTime":1767.976,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1767.976,"endTime":1769.796,"body":"And that's on... I think that's on us, as the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1769.796,"endTime":1773.776,"body":"Church, to speak into it with, you know, with relevance"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1774.435,"endTime":1779.036,"body":"and with timeliness, but also theologically embedded-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1779.036,"endTime":1779.175,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1779.175,"endTime":1780.125,"body":"... With what we're doing."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1780.125,"endTime":1781.816,"body":"Yeah, not li- not leaning away from these"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1781.816,"endTime":1784.576,"body":"conversations because they're scary or difficult, but leaning"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1784.576,"endTime":1786.175,"body":"into them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1786.175,"endTime":1787.935,"body":"Yeah, which I think one reason why I hope our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1787.935,"endTime":1790.135,"body":"listeners appreciate the background that you bring"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1790.135,"endTime":1792.836,"body":"theologically and the application of that, just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1792.836,"endTime":1796.596,"body":"particularly to technology, so needed today. One, one final"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1796.596,"endTime":1799.836,"body":"question for you. Let's, le- again, let's be specific about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1799.836,"endTime":1802.234,"body":"this. What, what kind of guidance would you have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1802.756,"endTime":1805.855,"body":"for those who are kinda wondering? You know, they're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1805.855,"endTime":1809.395,"body":"sort of dabbling with AI. It looks, it looks promising, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1809.395,"endTime":1811.375,"body":"they're just sort of wondering about what's, what's the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1811.375,"endTime":1812.375,"body":"appropriate use?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1813.039,"endTime":1815.74,"body":"... Of AI, 'cause I can think of lots of things that we don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1815.74,"endTime":1819.9,"body":"wanna do with it, but I think our listeners probably could use"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1819.9,"endTime":1823.259,"body":"some help with some of the things that you would suggest"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1824.0,"endTime":1827.099,"body":"are appropriate uses, and how to, and how to tell the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1827.099,"endTime":1828.0,"body":"difference."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1828.0,"endTime":1830.339,"body":"Yeah, an appropriate use, this comes out"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1830.339,"endTime":1833.74,"body":"of my parish experience. I serve at a multi-ethnic"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1833.74,"endTime":1838.16,"body":"congregation. We have worship services in English, Arabic, and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1838.16,"endTime":1839.18,"body":"in Swahili."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1839.18,"endTime":1839.619,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1839.619,"endTime":1842.119,"body":"That poses some logistical problems, right?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1842.119,"endTime":1844.98,"body":"[chuckles] there are other, pastors in my"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1844.98,"endTime":1847.44,"body":"congregation that lead the Swahili service, that lead the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1847.44,"endTime":1849.559,"body":"Arabic worship service. But"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1850.359,"endTime":1852.72,"body":"when we come together in a unified service, that's"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1852.72,"endTime":1853.209,"body":"difficult."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1853.839,"endTime":1856.779,"body":"If... As the senior pastor, if I wanna bring greetings"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1856.779,"endTime":1858.68,"body":"across those different communities, that's, that's a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1858.68,"endTime":1862.019,"body":"challenge. And so one of the things that's really fascinating"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1862.019,"endTime":1867.079,"body":"about AI is the advances that it's provided for real-time"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1867.079,"endTime":1870.819,"body":"language translation. And there's, a whole burgeoning"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1870.819,"endTime":1874.7,"body":"field of that a speaker can speak in one language, and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1874.7,"endTime":1878.98,"body":"in real-time, closed caption or even audio captions, of that,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1878.98,"endTime":1882.68,"body":"that language. Is it perfect? No, not 100%, but again, that's"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1882.68,"endTime":1883.359,"body":"kind of that-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1883.359,"endTime":1883.619,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1883.619,"endTime":1885.279,"body":"... Plateau of progress we were talking about,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1885.279,"endTime":1888.099,"body":"that it's good, and iteratively, it'll get better."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1888.099,"endTime":1891.16,"body":"Are there problems with that, privacy and issues? Sure, things"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1891.16,"endTime":1894.839,"body":"we need to consider. But I think practically, in my own"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1894.839,"endTime":1898.74,"body":"experience, that's the thing that I've found, is using AI"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1898.74,"endTime":1903.119,"body":"for that sort of thing. And then I think it's also... Another"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1903.119,"endTime":1908.019,"body":"practical thing would be this- I'm really one for... I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1908.019,"endTime":1911.96,"body":"find myself being kind of evangelistic about this. The"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1911.96,"endTime":1916.579,"body":"uncritical acceptance of AI is problematic, as is the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1916.579,"endTime":1919.88,"body":"uncritical rejection of it. [chuckles] So uncritically"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1919.88,"endTime":1923.4,"body":"accepting it and just jumping in, and uncritically rejecting"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1923.4,"endTime":1926.579,"body":"it, and that's where I really- I think one of the best things we"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1926.579,"endTime":1928.319,"body":"can do as the Church is,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1929.22,"endTime":1930.079,"body":"engage,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1931.539,"endTime":1933.579,"body":"reflect, converse,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1934.24,"endTime":1936.91,"body":"engage, reflect, converse in that kind of iterative way."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1936.91,"endTime":1936.92,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1936.92,"endTime":1938.819,"body":"And you can always stop [chuckles] at some"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1938.819,"endTime":1941.019,"body":"point there if you say, \"You know what? In- upon our"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1941.019,"endTime":1944.92,"body":"reflection, this engagement's problematic.\" but I think"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1944.92,"endTime":1946.019,"body":"a total avoidance"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1946.539,"endTime":1949.2,"body":"can be problematic, especially in the sense of,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1950.0,"endTime":1952.46,"body":"if you know little about something, you're only gonna go"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1952.46,"endTime":1954.68,"body":"know less and less about it, [chuckles] right?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1955.24,"endTime":1958.0,"body":"And so I think, I think we need to, as leaders in the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1958.0,"endTime":1962.42,"body":"Church and thinkers in the Church, we need to find ways"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1962.42,"endTime":1962.95,"body":"that we can"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1964.66,"endTime":1969.579,"body":"engage, but having that coupled with thinking biblically,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1969.579,"endTime":1973.319,"body":"thinking theologically, reflecting, conversing. And I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1973.319,"endTime":1975.44,"body":"think a lot of ways, the history of the Church kind of bears that"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1975.44,"endTime":1979.799,"body":"out, right? Like, how has, how did the Church formulate its"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1979.799,"endTime":1981.24,"body":"Trinitarian language? [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1981.24,"endTime":1981.38,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1981.38,"endTime":1981.779,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1981.779,"endTime":1983.339,"body":"Only took, only took them 400 years. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1983.339,"endTime":1985.14,"body":"Only took them 400 years, but it was a lot of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1985.14,"endTime":1986.048,"body":"councils-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1986.048,"endTime":1986.048,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1986.048,"endTime":1988.22,"body":"... A lot of engagement, a lot of trial and"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1988.22,"endTime":1991.099,"body":"error. And they didn't get it right on the first try, and,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1991.099,"endTime":1992.89,"body":"well, there's some heresies, you know,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1993.489,"endTime":1996.839,"body":"and that sort of thing. And so I think, I think that's... We have"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":1996.839,"endTime":1998.609,"body":"other models that we might be able to draw from."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1998.609,"endTime":1999.779,"body":"Yeah. Well, that's really helpful, 'cause I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1999.779,"endTime":2002.059,"body":"that the trial-and-error model, I think, is very appropriate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2002.059,"endTime":2002.44,"body":"here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2003.429,"endTime":2006.5,"body":"[lips smack] and I worry about people being sucked into"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2006.5,"endTime":2009.38,"body":"something that they can't control their use of. I'm sort"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2009.38,"endTime":2012.5,"body":"of curious, too, just one, well, like, one, like, this last"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2012.5,"endTime":2012.66,"body":"thing."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2012.66,"endTime":2013.819,"body":"One final thing, right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2013.819,"endTime":2015.44,"body":"Yeah. What, what do you tell your students"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2016.22,"endTime":2019.22,"body":"about the appropriate use of AI, from prof to prof here?"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2019.22,"endTime":2019.339,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2019.339,"endTime":2020.5,"body":"I'm kind of curious about that."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2020.5,"endTime":2023.319,"body":"Absolutely. Yeah, so I think from a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2023.319,"endTime":2028.88,"body":"researching standpoint, we think be engaging AI to, i- you"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2028.88,"endTime":2031.259,"body":"know, in rhetoric, we talks about- talk about that as, the"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2031.259,"endTime":2033.93,"body":"invention process. And when I say invention,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2034.74,"endTime":2037.559,"body":"it's, it's the researching. You know, when you are googling"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2037.559,"endTime":2041.64,"body":"something, in a lot of ways, you're already engaging AI in"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2041.64,"endTime":2044.329,"body":"that. So I think as professors, we need to kind of"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2044.329,"endTime":2048.099,"body":"ask the question, \"What do we even mean by AI?\" and so from a"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2048.099,"endTime":2050.11,"body":"research side or"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2050.619,"endTime":2053.579,"body":"what's out there, and synthesizing all this data,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2053.579,"endTime":2055.679,"body":"that's helpful. But from a,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2057.539,"endTime":2060.4,"body":"creation side, a content creation side, that's where"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2060.4,"endTime":2065.829,"body":"suddenly, relying on this tool to create our content"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2066.519,"endTime":2069.639,"body":"is very problematic. So I think there's greater opportunities, I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2069.639,"endTime":2073.48,"body":"tell my students, from researching what's out there,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2073.48,"endTime":2075.78,"body":"and when I say researching, I don't just mean doing all that"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2075.78,"endTime":2078.679,"body":"work for you, but I just mean, help me understand the field."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2078.679,"endTime":2079.3,"body":"Gather, gather."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2079.3,"endTime":2080.3,"body":"Gather the information."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2080.3,"endTime":2080.789,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2080.789,"endTime":2082.46,"body":"And then you gotta vet that information,"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2082.46,"endTime":2085.289,"body":"because generative AI does a lot of hallucinating. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2085.289,"endTime":2085.4,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2085.4,"endTime":2088.019,"body":"Right? So verify that the books you think"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2088.019,"endTime":2091.42,"body":"you're using are actual books, but it's really just a helpful"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2091.42,"endTime":2095.599,"body":"rough-and-ready, what's out there? And then I, bringing my"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2095.599,"endTime":2098.9,"body":"own wisdom to bear, my own knowledge to bear, vet that, but"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2098.9,"endTime":2102.0,"body":"then the creation, has to be your own. I think there's"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2102.0,"endTime":2102.88,"body":"another thing for"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2103.88,"endTime":2106.67,"body":"faculty and professors, and so forth, that"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2107.9,"endTime":2112.699,"body":"this is going to force us to maybe find new ways to evaluate."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2112.699,"endTime":2116.139,"body":"And I think in a lot of ways, AI and generative AI is gonna bring"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2116.139,"endTime":2118.519,"body":"back, oral evaluation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2118.519,"endTime":2119.48,"body":"Oh, I hope so."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2119.48,"endTime":2121.579,"body":"Yeah. But I mean, you can... There can"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2121.579,"endTime":2124.679,"body":"be a paper, or you can spend eight minutes with a student"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2124.679,"endTime":2126.739,"body":"talking, and, you will know-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2126.739,"endTime":2127.099,"body":"That'll be eight-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2127.099,"endTime":2127.179,"body":"You-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2127.179,"endTime":2128.9,"body":"... Eight of the most terrifying minutes that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2128.9,"endTime":2129.639,"body":"student will ever have. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2129.639,"endTime":2131.63,"body":"You will know in two minutes whether or not they"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2131.63,"endTime":2133.619,"body":"have actually put anything into the process-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2133.619,"endTime":2133.84,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2133.84,"endTime":2136.019,"body":"... Or if it's, all been generative AI. So I"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2136.019,"endTime":2140.019,"body":"think, I think we need to, again, lean into this, find"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2140.019,"endTime":2141.57,"body":"ways... I think the other thing is, if we tell our"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2141.57,"endTime":2144.599,"body":"students, \"No, no, you can never touch it,\" they're"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2144.599,"endTime":2146.53,"body":"gonna never learn critical ways to-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2146.53,"endTime":2146.53,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2146.53,"endTime":2148.4,"body":"... To interact with it, so we're gonna do them"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2148.4,"endTime":2149.82,"body":"a disservice there."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2149.82,"endTime":2151.76,"body":"Yeah, we rec- we recently talked about how"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2151.76,"endTime":2152.96,"body":"bluebooks are coming back."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2152.96,"endTime":2153.8,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2153.8,"endTime":2155.42,"body":"And, we've had- we had to tell some of our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2155.42,"endTime":2156.88,"body":"listeners actually what a bluebook is. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2156.88,"endTime":2158.23,"body":"What a bluebook is, yeah. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2158.23,"endTime":2160.42,"body":"'Cause they... There's no, a lot of them"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2160.42,"endTime":2162.28,"body":"had never written an exam in a bluebook, which-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2162.28,"endTime":2163.88,"body":"You also need a campus bookstore to get that"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2163.88,"endTime":2164.5,"body":"bluebook, right? [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2164.5,"endTime":2166.36,"body":"You actually... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, both of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2166.36,"endTime":2167.32,"body":"those are obsolete."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2167.32,"endTime":2167.34,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2167.34,"endTime":2169.28,"body":"But may, but both may be coming back."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2169.28,"endTime":2170.159,"body":"Yep, yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2170.159,"endTime":2173.059,"body":"Well, Trevor, this has been so helpful. I so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2173.059,"endTime":2178.26,"body":"appreciate your intersection of theology with technology, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2178.26,"endTime":2181.46,"body":"wanna kind of commend you for making this a big part of your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2181.46,"endTime":2183.96,"body":"life's work, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2184.5,"endTime":2186.679,"body":"moving your theological reflection-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2186.679,"endTime":2186.69,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2186.69,"endTime":2189.659,"body":"... Specifically in that direction. So needed today,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2189.659,"endTime":2192.36,"body":"and really commend you. You got, you got a lucky group of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2192.36,"endTime":2192.679,"body":"students-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2192.679,"endTime":2192.73,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2192.73,"endTime":2194.309,"body":"... Who get to be exposed to that-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2194.309,"endTime":2194.309,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2194.309,"endTime":2195.26,"body":"... On a regular basis, so-"},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2195.26,"endTime":2196.219,"body":"Well, thank you. I appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2196.219,"endTime":2196.23,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Trevor Sutton","startTime":2196.23,"endTime":2197.869,"body":"It's been a great conversation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2197.869,"endTime":2199.559,"body":"Well, so glad you could be with us."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2200.76,"endTime":2203.0,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2203.0,"endTime":2205.9,"body":"Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2205.9,"endTime":2208.369,"body":"Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, offering"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2208.369,"endTime":2211.48,"body":"programs in Southern California and online. Visit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2211.48,"endTime":2216.34,"body":"biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. If you'd like to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2216.34,"endTime":2219.559,"body":"submit comments, ask questions, or make suggestions on issues"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2219.559,"endTime":2222.219,"body":"you'd like us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2222.219,"endTime":2225.539,"body":"please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2225.539,"endTime":2229.26,"body":"That's thinkbiblically by, @biola.edu. If you enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2229.26,"endTime":2232.119,"body":"today's conversation with our friend Trevor Sutton, give us a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2232.119,"endTime":2234.639,"body":"rating on your podcast app and share it with a friend, and join"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2234.639,"endTime":2238.039,"body":"us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. Thanks so much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2238.039,"endTime":2241.039,"body":"for listening, and remember, think biblically about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2241.039,"endTime":2249.079,"body":"everything. [upbeat music]"}]}