{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.3,"endTime":3.96,"body":"[upbeat music] A potentially game-changing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3.96,"endTime":7.32,"body":"ceasefire agreement between Israel and Hamas, what the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":7.32,"endTime":11.82,"body":"arrival of AI-fabricated videos means for us, the Supreme Court"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":11.82,"endTime":15.279,"body":"takes up a case tied to conversion therapy, and despite"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":15.279,"endTime":18.719,"body":"promises that society would be far better off with marijuana"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":18.719,"endTime":23.26,"body":"legalization, in one county, 40% of drivers who died in a car"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":23.26,"endTime":28.48,"body":"accident had elevated levels of the psychoactive ingredient THC."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.48,"endTime":30.62,"body":"These are the stories we will discuss, and we will also"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":30.62,"endTime":33.7,"body":"address some of your questions. I'm your host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":33.7,"endTime":35.24,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":35.24,"endTime":37.46,"body":"This is the Think Biblically weekly cultural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":37.46,"endTime":40.64,"body":"update, brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.64,"endTime":43.439,"body":"University. Scott, I don't think we're gonna need to spend a ton"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":43.439,"endTime":46.439,"body":"of time on this first story, but it caught my attention because"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":46.439,"endTime":50.869,"body":"we're kinda seeing a shift in how culture is viewing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":50.869,"endTime":54.88,"body":"marijuana, I would argue potentially in a positive"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":54.88,"endTime":59.1,"body":"direction. And this study was... It was kinda stunning to me how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":59.1,"endTime":63.659,"body":"high these numbers are. They're, they're asking the question- how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":63.659,"endTime":67.4,"body":"much social and public health damage will Americans suffer"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":67.4,"endTime":71.48,"body":"before doing a U-turn on marijuana promotion? That's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":71.48,"endTime":75.34,"body":"exactly the right question. A new study found that 40% of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":75.34,"endTime":78.439,"body":"drivers who died in car accidents, like I said, in one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":78.439,"endTime":82.379,"body":"county, which is actually Montgomery County, Ohio, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":82.379,"endTime":83.92,"body":"this is between 2019"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":84.439,"endTime":90.06,"body":"and 2024, more than four in 10 tested positive for pot's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":90.06,"endTime":95.019,"body":"psychoactive ingredient, THC. This is-- The, the level that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":95.019,"endTime":98.78,"body":"they give is more than six times the level most states use to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":98.78,"endTime":100.4,"body":"define impairment."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":101.04,"endTime":104.26,"body":"That's how high it is. The study goes on, in this one they say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":104.26,"endTime":106.739,"body":"\"Nearly a quarter,\" so let this sink in, \"of 18 to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":106.739,"endTime":110.48,"body":"25-year-olds,\" so this is basically high school seniors"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":110.48,"endTime":114.719,"body":"to, like, those in their mid-20s, \"nearly a quarter used"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":114.719,"endTime":119.5,"body":"marijuana in the last month,\" and those over 26, it's about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":119.5,"endTime":123.599,"body":"15%. And this article argues that marijuana can damage the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":123.599,"endTime":127.78,"body":"heart, lungs, immune system, and the brain. They also point out"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":127.78,"endTime":130.939,"body":"that Americans, we were told that legalizing marijuana would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":130.939,"endTime":135.08,"body":"reduce the illegal market, but that hasn't happened. As I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":135.08,"endTime":139.0,"body":"described, just in [chuckles] California alone, in the last"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":139.0,"endTime":142.759,"body":"month, officials said they destroyed more than 20,000"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":142.759,"endTime":147.18,"body":"illegal cannabis plants at operations run by transnational"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":147.18,"endTime":151.879,"body":"criminal organizations. It sure seems to me like we've been sold"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":151.879,"endTime":155.68,"body":"a bill of goods, and we need to keep speaking up on the damages"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":155.68,"endTime":156.36,"body":"and dangers"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":156.879,"endTime":158.84,"body":"of marijuana. What's your take?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":158.84,"endTime":161.039,"body":"Well, Sean, I think it's, it's becoming more clear"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":161.039,"endTime":164.129,"body":"today that the pot being smoked today"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":164.699,"endTime":168.24,"body":"and ingested today is not what was smoked on the roofs of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":168.24,"endTime":169.68,"body":"college fraternity houses"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":170.319,"endTime":174.08,"body":"when I was a college student. It's... Which I did not do, by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":174.08,"endTime":175.259,"body":"the way. [laughing] It was the-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":175.259,"endTime":176.09,"body":"Thanks for clarifying."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":176.09,"endTime":178.58,"body":"It was the fraternity next door to ours."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":179.74,"endTime":183.479,"body":"It is m- it's much more potent, and it takes far less of it to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":183.479,"endTime":186.909,"body":"be impaired than previously. And you pointed out, I think, the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":186.909,"endTime":190.02,"body":"the long-term harms to one's health that are now becoming"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":190.02,"endTime":193.319,"body":"more and more well-documented. And I think... Now, although"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":194.12,"endTime":196.62,"body":"I think the idea, the advice to slow down on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":196.62,"endTime":199.639,"body":"reclassifying it, that the article points out-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":199.639,"endTime":199.65,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":199.65,"endTime":201.879,"body":"... I think is warranted. But even though it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":201.879,"endTime":204.719,"body":"more potent, you know, I don't think it belongs in quite"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":204.719,"endTime":207.9,"body":"the same category as cocaine, meth, and heroin."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":207.9,"endTime":208.469,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":209.139,"endTime":211.9,"body":"So I... 'Cause I think the addictive capacity of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":211.9,"endTime":212.8,"body":"those three"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":213.719,"endTime":216.4,"body":"is, I think, just off the charts,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":216.969,"endTime":217.68,"body":"more so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":218.24,"endTime":221.62,"body":"than even with this more potent form of marijuana. So I- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":221.62,"endTime":223.34,"body":"Wish there was some category in between"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":223.96,"endTime":225.139,"body":"those two."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":226.28,"endTime":228.96,"body":"But anyway, that's, that's a discussion for the law and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":228.96,"endTime":230.099,"body":"public policy. One other"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":230.62,"endTime":231.919,"body":"comment on this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":231.919,"endTime":232.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":232.5,"endTime":235.12,"body":"Ephesians 5-18 prohibits drunkenness-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":236.28,"endTime":240.18,"body":"... And instead counsels being filled with the Spirit. And I've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":240.18,"endTime":243.96,"body":"often wondered why Paul puts those two admonitions together,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":243.96,"endTime":247.259,"body":"but what they have in common is being under the influence of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":247.259,"endTime":250.68,"body":"either one. And the reason that we're not to be under the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":250.68,"endTime":253.5,"body":"influence of alcohol is you can't be under the influence of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":253.5,"endTime":257.92,"body":"the Spirit and alcohol at the same time. And the same is true,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":257.92,"endTime":261.079,"body":"I think, of the- especially is true of these degrees of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":261.079,"endTime":265.019,"body":"marijuana today. This is why, Sean, the argument that's based"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":265.019,"endTime":269.04,"body":"on the law, that both pot and alcohol being legal in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":269.04,"endTime":271.699,"body":"states where it is actually beside the point"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":272.259,"endTime":273.079,"body":"for the believer."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":273.68,"endTime":275.86,"body":"You know, I've, I've heard people say, \"Well, there's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":275.86,"endTime":278.56,"body":"nothing, there's nothing wrong with smoking marijuana"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":278.56,"endTime":282.22,"body":"because alcohol is legal. It has the same effects.\" that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":282.22,"endTime":284.339,"body":"argument, I think, is quite beside the point"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":284.879,"endTime":289.339,"body":"because you can't be under the influence of anything else"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":289.98,"endTime":291.519,"body":"and be under the influence of the Spirit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":292.079,"endTime":294.839,"body":"at the same time. And I think that applies to, applies to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":294.839,"endTime":297.399,"body":"other things to which you can be addicted. I think you can't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":297.399,"endTime":298.819,"body":"be under the influence of pornography"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":299.42,"endTime":301.62,"body":"and be filled- be under the influence of the Spirit at the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":301.62,"endTime":302.259,"body":"same time."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":302.839,"endTime":305.399,"body":"So what I think, it's just, it's wider than just some of these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":305.399,"endTime":308.939,"body":"things that we typically take as addictions. That's my... I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":308.939,"endTime":311.839,"body":"that's one way to think biblically about this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":312.72,"endTime":316.66,"body":"And I think, again, I think the fact that it's legal is sort"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":316.66,"endTime":320.439,"body":"of beside the point- ... Because of these other harms"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":321.04,"endTime":321.81,"body":"that we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":322.36,"endTime":324.62,"body":"that are becoming much more clear."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":324.62,"endTime":327.06,"body":"That's a helpful distinction between our duties"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":327.06,"endTime":331.54,"body":"as Christians is not determined by the state, right? Something"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":331.54,"endTime":336.399,"body":"can be legal and be immoral. Something can be illegal and be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":336.399,"endTime":340.62,"body":"moral. Now, the law is a teacher, like Plato said, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":340.62,"endTime":345.199,"body":"laws are important in part to inform people about what is good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":345.199,"endTime":346.579,"body":"and right and just,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":347.199,"endTime":350.519,"body":"but it's not the highest standard for a believer. Our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":350.519,"endTime":353.56,"body":"highest standard is God's character as expressed in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":353.56,"endTime":357.31,"body":"Scripture. So our duties are regardless"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":357.31,"endTime":357.31,"body":"Of course"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":357.31,"endTime":361.12,"body":"... Whether it's legal or not. But also, as we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":361.12,"endTime":365.848,"body":"weigh into-... Politics, which is about the common good, there"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":365.848,"endTime":370.807,"body":"is a legal aspect of marijuana, and there have been ideas pushed"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":370.807,"endTime":374.146,"body":"and promoted going back a long time ago, \"It's harmless. We"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":374.146,"endTime":377.728,"body":"will be better off.\" And a lot of the argument was that they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":377.728,"endTime":380.567,"body":"hint at this, that if we just bring it out into the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":380.567,"endTime":381.966,"body":"light, it will"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":382.487,"endTime":386.168,"body":"minimize the amount of kind of the corruption and the criminal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":386.168,"endTime":390.487,"body":"ring of people selling illegal marijuana. And it turns out that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":390.487,"endTime":394.206,"body":"it not only didn't help there, but arguably even made things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":394.767,"endTime":395.206,"body":"worse."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":395.887,"endTime":398.728,"body":"So I think it's a call for Christians to speak up on this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":398.728,"endTime":399.887,"body":"be informed about this-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":399.887,"endTime":399.896,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":399.896,"endTime":401.567,"body":"... Be discerning in terms of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":401.567,"endTime":406.048,"body":"political endgame, as well as individually. All right, I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":406.048,"endTime":409.827,"body":"sure we will revisit that topic, in due time, but it seems like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":409.827,"endTime":413.177,"body":"every week there's something on AI we need to discuss [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":413.177,"endTime":417.608,"body":"and break down. It's just every week there's something new. And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":417.608,"endTime":420.706,"body":"I thought this article in the New York Times was really"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":420.706,"endTime":426.048,"body":"helpful. The title is What the Arrival of AI-Fabricated Video"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":426.786,"endTime":427.987,"body":"Means for Us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":428.827,"endTime":432.067,"body":"Now, the reason this is timely is because it's really this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":432.067,"endTime":438.127,"body":"month that OpenAI, who made ChatGPT, the chatbot, graced the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":438.127,"endTime":442.288,"body":"internet with a technology that most of us were probably not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":442.288,"endTime":448.387,"body":"ready for. It's an app called Sora, which lets users instantly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":448.387,"endTime":452.288,"body":"generate realistic-looking videos with AI by typing a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":452.288,"endTime":456.108,"body":"simple description. And they say, for example, such as,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":456.108,"endTime":460.187,"body":"\"Police body cam footage of a dog being arrested for stealing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":460.187,"endTime":463.108,"body":"rib eye at Costco,\" meaning people just throw in the most"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":463.108,"endTime":466.827,"body":"ridiculous [chuckles] things and get funny videos out of it. And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":466.827,"endTime":469.567,"body":"of course, when technology comes like this, people will use it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":469.567,"endTime":472.187,"body":"creatively for good, for funny,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":472.767,"endTime":477.048,"body":"but there's also a real downside to this. The amount of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":477.048,"endTime":483.216,"body":"disinformation, including fake security footage of crimes, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":483.216,"endTime":487.646,"body":"seems to be emerging. And what they say here, something my wife"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":487.646,"endTime":489.846,"body":"and I have been talking about for a little bit, is that they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":489.846,"endTime":492.987,"body":"say, quote, \"The tech could represent the end of visual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":492.987,"endTime":497.586,"body":"fact. The idea that video could serve as an objective record of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":497.586,"endTime":501.927,"body":"reality as we know it. We're going to treat skepticism as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":501.927,"endTime":505.827,"body":"much as we, have the same skepticism as we do towards"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":505.827,"endTime":506.317,"body":"words.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":507.586,"endTime":511.466,"body":"and they talk how our brains are, like, wired to see videos."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":511.466,"endTime":514.567,"body":"And I think they're right, that we've basically got to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":514.567,"endTime":518.447,"body":"point, at least in these short videos, it's really hard to tell"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":518.447,"endTime":523.488,"body":"fact from fiction. And if we're not fully there yet, it's only a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":523.488,"endTime":527.187,"body":"matter of time. And by the way, all we need for somebody is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":527.187,"endTime":530.866,"body":"words and a description and a photo, and then at least a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":530.866,"endTime":533.837,"body":"10-second video can be made out of this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":534.548,"endTime":539.248,"body":"So what's happening is these things are filling up Instagram"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":539.248,"endTime":543.288,"body":"and filling up TikTok, and all over the place, we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":543.288,"endTime":546.327,"body":"them quickly on our phones, and people like you and I, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":546.327,"endTime":548.827,"body":"maybe need glasses to look at our phones, aren't seeing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":548.827,"endTime":552.548,"body":"[chuckles] how clear they are. And it's like this month,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":552.548,"endTime":553.447,"body":"literally, you could say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":554.107,"endTime":559.148,"body":"we've hit a tipping point where the ability to discern fact from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":559.148,"endTime":563.148,"body":"fiction hit a new level of difficulty. And I won't go into"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":563.148,"endTime":565.408,"body":"all of it, but they're just talking about videos about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":565.408,"endTime":571.607,"body":"defaming people, a fake dashcam footage used for insurance"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":571.607,"endTime":576.607,"body":"fraud. And Sora puts a watermark on them, so you know, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":576.607,"endTime":581.727,"body":"creative editors can literally take that off. What do you make"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":581.727,"endTime":583.927,"body":"of this kind of shift with AI?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":583.927,"endTime":584.347,"body":"Well, Sean,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":585.028,"endTime":588.548,"body":"the big takeaway from this is that seeing is no longer"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":588.548,"endTime":589.626,"body":"believing."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":589.626,"endTime":591.168,"body":"There you go."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":591.168,"endTime":593.748,"body":"And indisputable video evidence"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":594.648,"endTime":598.648,"body":"may be a thing only in live sports."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":598.648,"endTime":601.126,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":601.126,"endTime":603.626,"body":"And I'd say this is further evidence of the way the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":603.626,"endTime":607.427,"body":"late Neil Postman put it, of amusing ourselves to death."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":608.447,"endTime":611.847,"body":"And I think he was... This is, this just show- he was even more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":611.847,"endTime":615.508,"body":"prophetic than I think he's been given credit for."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":616.347,"endTime":619.528,"body":"And so I would, I would so urge our listeners, if you have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":619.528,"endTime":622.626,"body":"not- if you're not familiar with his book by that title, Amusing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":622.626,"endTime":625.126,"body":"Ourselves to Death, it is still... It was published in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":625.126,"endTime":629.567,"body":"1985, and he was only [chuckles] talking about television."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":629.567,"endTime":630.567,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":630.567,"endTime":633.807,"body":"And it is still, Sean, one of the five best books"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":633.807,"endTime":638.278,"body":"I have ever read, and one of the most insightful, prophetic, it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":638.278,"endTime":642.126,"body":"is just- I think it is required reading for people who want to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":642.126,"endTime":646.386,"body":"understand our culture today. Now, this is, this is not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":646.386,"endTime":651.307,"body":"entirely new. Deepfakes have sort of started this trend."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":651.307,"endTime":652.386,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":652.386,"endTime":654.626,"body":"And the FBI estimates that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":655.168,"endTime":656.408,"body":"deepfakes have caused"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":656.947,"endTime":660.668,"body":"around $50 billion in damages."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":661.697,"endTime":664.168,"body":"And, and it's probably just in the last, you know, three or"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":664.168,"endTime":664.727,"body":"four years."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":665.408,"endTime":669.048,"body":"And it has put the spreading of disinformation on steroids"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":670.227,"endTime":674.008,"body":"and fabricated stories masquerading as news and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":674.008,"endTime":677.227,"body":"reality. In fact, one of the things this article points out,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":677.227,"endTime":681.008,"body":"Sean, is you can have, you can even have an entire AI-generated"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":681.008,"endTime":684.827,"body":"newscast of made-up stories appearing as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":685.366,"endTime":686.288,"body":"the real events."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":688.067,"endTime":691.307,"body":"This has a fr- we've- we're further blurring the line now"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":691.307,"endTime":697.048,"body":"between news and advertising. In fact, advertising is now being"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":697.048,"endTime":699.447,"body":"presented as news, as the hook"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":700.107,"endTime":704.508,"body":"for the product or the service being sold. And I wasn't, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":704.508,"endTime":706.587,"body":"wasn't aware of this until I read this piece this morning,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":706.587,"endTime":711.207,"body":"that increasingly, the headlines in our news feeds on our phones"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":711.207,"endTime":714.748,"body":"are advertised-generated AI stories."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":715.427,"endTime":716.288,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":716.288,"endTime":720.126,"body":"And I would say that the doctrine of truth in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":720.126,"endTime":720.927,"body":"advertising"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":721.847,"endTime":725.578,"body":"is being challenged like never before...."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":726.659,"endTime":729.379,"body":"Now, one of the things I sort of wonder about, and I think, how"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.379,"endTime":733.039,"body":"do we think biblically about this? And I just, I wonder how"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":733.039,"endTime":736.539,"body":"the biblical mandate to put aside falsehood and speak truth"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":736.539,"endTime":737.24,"body":"to one another"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":737.86,"endTime":743.34,"body":"from Ephesians 4-25 fits into this. Now, of course,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":743.34,"endTime":745.99,"body":"ultimately, as you mentioned, the reason"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":746.659,"endTime":749.779,"body":"that we have the moral demands that we do is because of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":749.779,"endTime":751.59,"body":"character of the God that we serve."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":752.259,"endTime":752.549,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":752.549,"endTime":754.5,"body":"Right? And the reason, the reason truth-telling"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":754.5,"endTime":758.158,"body":"is a mandate is because ultimately that reflects the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":758.158,"endTime":762.399,"body":"character of God being a God, a God of truth. But one of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":762.399,"endTime":766.299,"body":"other reasons for the truth-telling mandate is that if"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":766.299,"endTime":770.159,"body":"we lose the obligation to the truth, then meaningful"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":770.159,"endTime":773.779,"body":"communication eventually becomes impossible."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":774.74,"endTime":777.639,"body":"If you and I are having a conversation, Sean, and I can't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":777.639,"endTime":783.039,"body":"distinguish between what you are saying as truth and falsehood,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":783.039,"endTime":785.489,"body":"then we can't communicate hardly at all."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":786.639,"endTime":790.778,"body":"And meaningful communication depends on the assumption of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":790.778,"endTime":793.769,"body":"truth-telling that reflects reality."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":794.899,"endTime":797.62,"body":"And in my view, the notion of,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":798.659,"endTime":802.519,"body":"of truth-telling being the foundation for genuine"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":802.519,"endTime":806.21,"body":"communication, I think, has taken a hit here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":807.059,"endTime":809.12,"body":"And that's what worries me about this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":809.919,"endTime":812.759,"body":"And I worry about the cynicism"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":813.5,"endTime":816.799,"body":"that's gonna... That, that is being generated for all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":816.799,"endTime":818.24,"body":"visual media now."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":819.799,"endTime":821.818,"body":"You know, and I think some, and some rightly so,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":822.399,"endTime":825.919,"body":"but the, you know, the things that you can do with this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":826.779,"endTime":829.36,"body":"and the, you know, the guardrails are... I don't even-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":829.36,"endTime":832.559,"body":"I don't hear anybody talking about too many of the guardrails"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":832.559,"endTime":835.48,"body":"on this, although God bless them, you know, YouTube has"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":835.48,"endTime":840.019,"body":"taken down thousands and thousands of videos that have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":840.019,"endTime":845.078,"body":"been, that have been put on just in the last few days,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":845.659,"endTime":849.539,"body":"because this has exploded there. And s- and they've, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":849.539,"endTime":852.019,"body":"they have- they've taken down videos that have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":852.559,"endTime":856.179,"body":"pornography in them, that have Taylor Swift in them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":856.98,"endTime":858.12,"body":"You know, in fact, I thought about,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":858.879,"endTime":862.379,"body":"making a video through one of these, Soar, or one of,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":862.379,"endTime":865.96,"body":"or one of the equivalent. Meta's got one called Vibes. Making a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":865.96,"endTime":869.12,"body":"video called- video entitled Taylor Swift and Taylor Kels-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":869.12,"endTime":871.729,"body":"and, Travis Kelce Break Up- [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":871.729,"endTime":871.96,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":871.96,"endTime":874.849,"body":"... And see, and see what, see what that would do."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":874.849,"endTime":874.879,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":875.48,"endTime":875.668,"body":"but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":876.399,"endTime":881.639,"body":"there, the means we have available now to fabricate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":881.639,"endTime":882.379,"body":"reality"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":883.059,"endTime":885.438,"body":"are things that we've never had before."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":886.059,"endTime":888.539,"body":"And I'm not super optimistic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":889.259,"endTime":891.279,"body":"about the guardrails on this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":892.019,"endTime":895.799,"body":"Now, I think if anything, the guardrails have so far have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":895.799,"endTime":900.419,"body":"been pretty limited. The law has, I think, been pretty"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":900.419,"endTime":903.818,"body":"impotent to step into this. And the way you... How, I mean, I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":903.818,"endTime":908.799,"body":"not sure how you would enforce this in any case. So I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":908.799,"endTime":914.159,"body":"concerned for our cultural ability to distinguish between"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":914.74,"endTime":918.399,"body":"reality and falsehood, I think is being challenged in a way"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":918.399,"endTime":921.62,"body":"that it never has before, that threatens our ability to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":921.62,"endTime":924.078,"body":"actually meaningful, meaningfully communicate with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":924.078,"endTime":924.62,"body":"each other."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":925.96,"endTime":927.86,"body":"You know, your point about amusing ourselves to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":927.86,"endTime":930.799,"body":"death, I think we saw that this week with AI."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":931.318,"endTime":933.419,"body":"I mean, the issue we're not really talking about is the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":933.419,"endTime":936.519,"body":"shutdown, which in some ways is political theater,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":937.099,"endTime":940.24,"body":"and, honestly, this is not a political... I'm not making a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":940.24,"endTime":944.539,"body":"political point here. But Trump, part of his response to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":944.539,"endTime":948.21,"body":"Democrats was to make this AI-generated video"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":948.879,"endTime":951.019,"body":"of him wearing sombreros-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":951.019,"endTime":951.089,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":951.089,"endTime":953.48,"body":"... Making fun of the Democratic leader,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":953.48,"endTime":956.438,"body":"mocking Schumer. Now, I had a couple thoughts of that. Part of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":956.438,"endTime":959.799,"body":"it was, like, kind of funny, but the other part was, like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":959.799,"endTime":964.099,"body":"tragically funny. Like, this is a serious issue about government"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":964.099,"endTime":965.139,"body":"being shut down,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":965.72,"endTime":970.029,"body":"what we fund, what we don't fund, and AI has, like, shifted"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":970.029,"endTime":973.72,"body":"the conversation to the ridiculous, to who can troll the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":973.72,"endTime":977.46,"body":"other one the most, who can shape the narrative culturally,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":977.46,"endTime":982.818,"body":"get views, and get clicks. That cannot be healthy for a vibrant"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":982.818,"endTime":984.72,"body":"discussion within a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":985.44,"endTime":991.039,"body":"society about truth and issues that matter. It just can't be."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":991.039,"endTime":994.98,"body":"So there's always been built-in tendencies for human beings to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":994.98,"endTime":999.059,"body":"try to win for political gain, to try to gain power, to tr-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":999.059,"endTime":1003.919,"body":"just try to control things. AI gives more incentive and plays"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1003.919,"endTime":1006.818,"body":"to our baser instincts to do this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1007.419,"endTime":1010.799,"body":"and so as Christians, we just have to guard against this and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1010.799,"endTime":1014.539,"body":"be careful that we don't fall into that trap."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1015.48,"endTime":1018.46,"body":"Some of the other things in the article that jumped out to me is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1018.46,"endTime":1021.94,"body":"I thought there was good advice about pause and check your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1021.94,"endTime":1022.72,"body":"biases."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1023.519,"endTime":1028.019,"body":"I was like, \"That's great.\" Pause every single time when"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1028.019,"endTime":1031.74,"body":"there's a certain bias. And after reading this article this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1031.74,"endTime":1035.71,"body":"morning, Scott, I got on X, and I read a few posts. I thought,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1035.71,"endTime":1038.799,"body":"\"You know what? How do I know if these are even true?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1038.799,"endTime":1041.328,"body":"Yes. That's a great question."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1041.328,"endTime":1042.818,"body":"How do I know? One showed a picture of a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1042.818,"endTime":1046.179,"body":"beautiful 19-year-old girl and said, \"Just remember how evil"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1046.179,"endTime":1050.599,"body":"Hamas is. She was burned to death.\" Well, we know for sure"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1050.599,"endTime":1053.72,"body":"that Hamas did horrible things like that, but I don't know if I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1053.72,"endTime":1056.339,"body":"can verify that particular story or not. I don't know, but that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1056.339,"endTime":1059.96,"body":"image was powerful. And then there were, there were videos of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1059.96,"endTime":1063.4,"body":"once the peace agreement was signed, there were videos of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1063.4,"endTime":1066.039,"body":"bombings saying, \"Look what happens afterwards.\" And I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1066.039,"endTime":1068.779,"body":"thinking, \"Well, I don't know if that was before or afterwards.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1068.779,"endTime":1072.339,"body":"I can't... Like, so many things I'm more and more [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1072.339,"endTime":1077.339,"body":"skeptical about on all sides of this, and I don't love that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1077.339,"endTime":1081.259,"body":"It's harder to know what is true, and I find myself"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1081.259,"endTime":1085.819,"body":"believing the things that fit my preconceived narrative, which,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1085.819,"endTime":1090.208,"body":"again, is something that human beings naturally do.... Now,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1090.208,"endTime":1092.867,"body":"I've got, I got a couple other sources here, or a couple other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1092.867,"endTime":1095.647,"body":"points I was gonna make, but I sense you wanna jump in here and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1095.647,"endTime":1097.147,"body":"make a point or two."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1097.147,"endTime":1100.268,"body":"Well, you know, our colleague, J. P. Moreland,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1100.268,"endTime":1103.567,"body":"ha- I think was, has been well known for saying, in commenting"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1103.567,"endTime":1105.607,"body":"sort of on the, on cultural shifts, that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1106.307,"endTime":1107.748,"body":"the makeup person"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1108.367,"endTime":1110.548,"body":"has replaced the speechwriter."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1111.788,"endTime":1115.528,"body":"And what he, I think what he meant by that is that image has"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1115.528,"endTime":1120.446,"body":"replaced reality, image has replaced substance as being the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1120.446,"endTime":1124.508,"body":"thing that we value the most. And I would say here, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1124.508,"endTime":1130.307,"body":"videographer has replaced the speechwriter here. And that the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1130.307,"endTime":1131.567,"body":"the image"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1132.288,"endTime":1137.548,"body":"has, it now has the ability to dominate the substance"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1138.147,"endTime":1141.667,"body":"in ways that it never... And it can obscure the substance in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1141.667,"endTime":1146.167,"body":"ways that it never has before. And that, as a cultural trend,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1146.167,"endTime":1150.607,"body":"that is, I think is very troubling. And I think what it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1150.607,"endTime":1156.728,"body":"requires is a degree of discernment about what's true"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1156.728,"endTime":1160.468,"body":"and what's not, what's reality and what's, and what's not. And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1160.468,"endTime":1164.867,"body":"I think it's in- it's gonna be incumbent upon, [lips smack]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1164.867,"endTime":1168.107,"body":"the c- the companies that are, that are hosting these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1168.107,"endTime":1172.048,"body":"platforms, and I think it's gonna be incumbent on, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1172.048,"endTime":1175.708,"body":"those of us who are in education, and in our churches,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1175.708,"endTime":1178.708,"body":"to help, to help our students and to help our folks in our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1178.708,"endTime":1179.127,"body":"churches"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1179.788,"endTime":1182.988,"body":"exercise the kind of discernment that they're gonna need to going"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1182.988,"endTime":1183.548,"body":"forward."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1184.567,"endTime":1188.988,"body":"And I'm not, I'm not super optimistic about the companies"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1188.988,"endTime":1190.728,"body":"helping us do that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1190.728,"endTime":1190.887,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1191.468,"endTime":1194.008,"body":"I'm, I'm, you know, I mean, maybe at one"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1194.008,"endTime":1197.468,"body":"point, the, you know, the pushback on, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1197.468,"endTime":1201.686,"body":"levels of, you know, for sort of ridiculousness with these, with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1201.686,"endTime":1205.327,"body":"these, you know, with Sora and other video-generating,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1206.428,"endTime":1207.137,"body":"applications"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1207.728,"endTime":1210.147,"body":"will force companies to take steps back."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1210.928,"endTime":1214.468,"body":"But just the way that, you know, the way that they're, they're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1214.468,"endTime":1218.688,"body":"being received so far, and being sold so far... I mean, I looked,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1218.688,"endTime":1222.407,"body":"I looked at the site for a couple of these already, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1222.407,"endTime":1226.847,"body":"they are, they are being sold as things that will revolutionize"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1226.847,"endTime":1230.107,"body":"the way we do, the way we look at reality."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1230.946,"endTime":1235.107,"body":"And, you know, that by itself, I think, is really"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1235.107,"endTime":1236.467,"body":"troubling. So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1236.988,"endTime":1240.107,"body":"I, you know, I don't know what this is gonna do to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1240.107,"endTime":1242.508,"body":"to our, you know, to our film school,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1243.248,"endTime":1247.967,"body":"that's, you know, is teaching people to produce videos"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1247.967,"endTime":1252.048,"body":"with real actors and do it sort of the old-fashioned way."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1252.748,"endTime":1255.087,"body":"You know, I don't know what that's gonna do to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1255.087,"endTime":1258.827,"body":"the entertainment industry. I mean, all of this, th- you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1258.827,"endTime":1261.028,"body":"these AI, [lips smack]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1262.728,"endTime":1265.228,"body":"you know, things like Sora, they're just gonna get better"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1265.228,"endTime":1266.508,"body":"and more sophisticated-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1266.508,"endTime":1266.577,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1266.577,"endTime":1269.288,"body":"... And more real- and more realistic looking. What"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1269.288,"endTime":1270.107,"body":"we're seeing here"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1270.667,"endTime":1273.428,"body":"is these are, these are really, Sean, just prototypes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1274.307,"endTime":1274.607,"body":"that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1275.188,"endTime":1277.347,"body":"you know, and I'm, I'm sure there are gonna be lots of bugs"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1277.347,"endTime":1277.807,"body":"in these"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1278.387,"endTime":1280.907,"body":"and things that they'll have to work out over time. They will"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1280.907,"endTime":1284.627,"body":"definitely improve, you know, pro- and the product we see"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1284.627,"endTime":1287.467,"body":"today will be vastly different than what we see a year from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1287.467,"endTime":1289.028,"body":"now."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1289.028,"endTime":1290.887,"body":"[lips smack] And I think the key is not just that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1290.887,"endTime":1294.428,"body":"the technology increases, but it gets easier. In the past, a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1294.428,"endTime":1297.917,"body":"videographer required training, required [chuckles] skill."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1297.917,"endTime":1297.946,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1297.946,"endTime":1300.688,"body":"Now, you just type in to throw in a photo, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1300.688,"endTime":1305.788,"body":"you get something as if you had the skill, so it democratizes it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1305.788,"endTime":1309.387,"body":"in a sense, which I think it raises a whole bunch of other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1309.387,"endTime":1310.827,"body":"questions and problems."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1310.827,"endTime":1311.048,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1311.048,"endTime":1311.188,"body":"I would just-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1311.188,"endTime":1313.708,"body":"Which can also put it in the hands of all sorts of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1313.708,"endTime":1314.738,"body":"bad actors, too."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1315.248,"endTime":1317.208,"body":"That's exact- yeah, that's right. I just, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1317.208,"endTime":1319.467,"body":"would remind us, you know... I've mentioned this verse"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1319.467,"endTime":1323.248,"body":"before, I think about it a lot, Proverbs 18-17- \"The first to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1323.248,"endTime":1325.127,"body":"speak in court sounds right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1325.867,"endTime":1329.827,"body":"until the cross-examination begins.\" I try to live by that,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1329.827,"endTime":1333.067,"body":"but now [chuckles] I'm just building into my mind more and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1333.067,"endTime":1337.317,"body":"more and more. Read another side, check another source, get"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1337.317,"endTime":1340.567,"body":"the facts first. We should have always done that. It's more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1340.567,"endTime":1346.327,"body":"important than ever, that we do that, I think, as believers. All"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.327,"endTime":1349.028,"body":"right, we've got a range of topics today. This one, you and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1349.028,"endTime":1352.647,"body":"I both saw pop up and thought was important, and it's tied to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1352.647,"endTime":1356.817,"body":"a new bill, that's, going to the Supreme Court, tied to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1356.817,"endTime":1362.587,"body":"conversion therapy from a 2019 bill that was passed in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1362.587,"endTime":1369.097,"body":"Colorado. And the bill passed in Colorado was House Bill 19-1129,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1369.097,"endTime":1372.268,"body":"[inhales] and they define conversion therapy as any"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1372.268,"endTime":1377.307,"body":"practice or treatment by a licensed physician specializing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1377.307,"endTime":1379.087,"body":"in the practice of psychiatry"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1380.048,"endTime":1384.367,"body":"that attempts or purports to change an individual's sexual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1384.367,"endTime":1389.028,"body":"orientation or gender identity, including efforts to change"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1389.028,"endTime":1395.347,"body":"behavior or gender expressions, or to eliminate or even reduce"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1395.347,"endTime":1399.788,"body":"sexual or romantic attractions or feelings towards individuals"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1399.788,"endTime":1405.008,"body":"of the same sex. Now, this bill is specifically for those under"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1405.008,"endTime":1405.708,"body":"18,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1406.548,"endTime":1410.607,"body":"and certified addiction counselor means a person who is,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1410.607,"endTime":1412.067,"body":"you know, an addiction counselor"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1412.667,"endTime":1416.087,"body":"certified pursuant to this article, it says. So they're not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1416.087,"endTime":1419.228,"body":"talking about pastors. There seems to maybe be a religious"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1419.228,"endTime":1421.188,"body":"exemption that's built into this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1421.887,"endTime":1424.887,"body":"but there's about 20 other states that have similarly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1424.887,"endTime":1426.127,"body":"banned the practice."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1427.008,"endTime":1428.988,"body":"And there was a psychologist"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1429.667,"endTime":1434.548,"body":"who's pushed this to the Supreme Court, saying that she could not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1434.548,"endTime":1436.567,"body":"have the right and the freedom of speech"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1437.288,"endTime":1442.446,"body":"for kids and others who came to her and said, \"I have certain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1442.446,"endTime":1447.048,"body":"feelings, like attractions, and I don't want to live them out."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1447.048,"endTime":1452.203,"body":"Can you help me reduce them?\"... And she's arguing that this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1452.203,"endTime":1455.263,"body":"limits her freedom of speech, and this law should be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1455.263,"endTime":1459.282,"body":"overturned. Of course, the other side is saying that they are,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1459.803,"endTime":1465.144,"body":"conversion therapy is damaging and harmful, and allowing this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1465.144,"endTime":1470.273,"body":"would hurt LGBTQ kids and society as a whole. Apparently,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1470.273,"endTime":1473.503,"body":"in Colorado, they've never enforced the measure, but it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1473.503,"endTime":1478.663,"body":"fines up to $5,000 for each violation and possible"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1478.663,"endTime":1483.903,"body":"suspension or revocation of a counselor's license. There have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1483.903,"endTime":1486.843,"body":"been some other cases like this we don't need to go into, tied"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1486.843,"endTime":1490.903,"body":"to what we might call the collision between LGBTQ rights"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1491.423,"endTime":1494.163,"body":"and religious liberty, and,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1494.843,"endTime":1499.282,"body":"this seems to be the latest one that we will hear about in June."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1499.282,"endTime":1500.763,"body":"What's your thoughts on this?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1500.763,"endTime":1502.282,"body":"Well, Sean, I, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1502.823,"endTime":1506.063,"body":"this is significant enough that I think it's worth our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1506.063,"endTime":1509.144,"body":"talking about before the Supreme Court actually makes its"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1509.144,"endTime":1512.683,"body":"decision. Because y- we can understand the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1512.683,"endTime":1515.042,"body":"reasoning that's behind the argument"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1515.763,"endTime":1520.273,"body":"on both sides is important to isolate. And I think it's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1520.273,"endTime":1523.144,"body":"it's worth noting that, the therapist here from Colorado,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1523.144,"endTime":1526.003,"body":"she lost her two previous court cases-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1527.003,"endTime":1529.523,"body":"... In the district court and then in the, in the state"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1529.523,"endTime":1533.384,"body":"court of appeals, and now she's appealing it to the US Supreme"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1533.384,"endTime":1536.203,"body":"Court, and I think the fact that they agreed to hear it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1537.042,"endTime":1539.903,"body":"was significant by itself-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1539.903,"endTime":1540.243,"body":"I agree"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1540.243,"endTime":1543.023,"body":"... Regardless of what the decision will be. Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1543.023,"endTime":1545.144,"body":"I recognize some of the harms"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1545.703,"endTime":1549.344,"body":"that prompted laws, and there are laws in about 20 states that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1549.344,"endTime":1550.943,"body":"ban this form of therapy."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1551.923,"endTime":1554.463,"body":"And some things, you know, some things I think went way out of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1554.463,"endTime":1557.603,"body":"bounds. I mean, we've heard anecdotal reports of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1557.603,"endTime":1560.282,"body":"shock therapy and cult-like-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1560.282,"endTime":1560.353,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1560.353,"endTime":1562.403,"body":"... Types of things. How wide, how widespread"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1562.963,"endTime":1565.303,"body":"those have been, I think, is up for debate."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1565.303,"endTime":1565.423,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1565.423,"endTime":1565.583,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1566.124,"endTime":1569.403,"body":"the argument here, I think, pits free speech against"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1569.403,"endTime":1574.144,"body":"professional responsibilities. And, you see, the obvious"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1574.144,"endTime":1577.364,"body":"contrast here, and perhaps as one justice, Supreme Court"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1577.364,"endTime":1580.423,"body":"justice pointed out already, perhaps a double standard in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1580.423,"endTime":1580.903,"body":"law,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1581.844,"endTime":1582.223,"body":"is with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1582.743,"endTime":1585.663,"body":"physicians treating patients, especially adolescents with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1585.663,"endTime":1589.653,"body":"gender dysphoria, prohibiting them from denying them"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1589.653,"endTime":1594.663,"body":"treatments or talking them out of it. Or the opposite law in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1594.663,"endTime":1598.103,"body":"Tennessee recently, that prohibiting gender-affirming"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1598.103,"endTime":1602.723,"body":"treatments for minors, and now that was not specifically"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1602.723,"endTime":1607.763,"body":"aimed at speech, but it's not hard to see it extending to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1607.763,"endTime":1609.703,"body":"trying to talk people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1610.223,"endTime":1614.844,"body":"into those treatments would be seen as very problematic. Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1614.844,"endTime":1616.624,"body":"Sean, what I, what I wonder about here"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1617.782,"endTime":1621.374,"body":"is the right of ph- and I'm gonna use physicians as an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1621.374,"endTime":1624.023,"body":"example of this, not therapists per se, but the..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1624.023,"endTime":1627.583,"body":"What is, what is the right of physicians to promote treatments"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1627.583,"endTime":1629.483,"body":"that are not in the medical mainstream,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1631.203,"endTime":1633.844,"body":"to promote treatments that are experimental?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1634.723,"endTime":1637.443,"body":"You know, what about physicians who discourage people from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1637.443,"endTime":1641.943,"body":"getting vaccinations, regardless of how you feel about those,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1642.963,"endTime":1646.203,"body":"or people who try to talk patients out of antibiotics for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1646.203,"endTime":1650.083,"body":"a virus? Which as you know, antibiotics don't treat viruses,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1650.083,"endTime":1652.403,"body":"but, you know, I've been prescribed that. I've had"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1652.403,"endTime":1657.124,"body":"doctors recommend that to me for some viruses. And see, part of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1657.124,"endTime":1658.083,"body":"medical treatment"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1658.743,"endTime":1662.163,"body":"is giving your opinion about what's indicated and appropriate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1662.163,"endTime":1663.353,"body":"in terms of treatments,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1664.323,"endTime":1667.563,"body":"and I think the line between speech and treatment is not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1667.563,"endTime":1668.603,"body":"nearly as sharp"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1669.344,"endTime":1673.323,"body":"as the law in Colorado affirms, and even more blurry, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1673.323,"endTime":1679.124,"body":"for therapists, when talk itself actually is the treatment. Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1679.124,"endTime":1681.923,"body":"I've, I've been around a lot of physicians who are trying to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1681.923,"endTime":1686.823,"body":"talk patients and families into certain things at the end"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1686.823,"endTime":1690.073,"body":"of life, either treatments- ... That they may not want"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1690.803,"endTime":1694.583,"body":"or into stopping treatments that they may not want to do. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1694.583,"endTime":1696.603,"body":"I've been, I've been a part of these conversations at the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1696.603,"endTime":1698.384,"body":"bedside for a long time."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1698.384,"endTime":1698.894,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1698.894,"endTime":1700.703,"body":"And physicians, I think, have the right to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1700.703,"endTime":1703.644,"body":"practice medicine according to their conscience. That's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1703.644,"endTime":1706.563,"body":"long-recognized standard, though I admit that's being eroded"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1706.563,"endTime":1710.303,"body":"today, but I think it's still largely in place, for the most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1710.303,"endTime":1714.884,"body":"part, except in some of these really controversial areas. So I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1714.884,"endTime":1718.123,"body":"wanna be careful that we're not, we're not promoting a double"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1718.123,"endTime":1724.303,"body":"standard here. And I think to recognize that, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1724.303,"endTime":1727.542,"body":"how a, how a physician recommends something and the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1727.542,"endTime":1731.743,"body":"treatment that they actually perform, that line is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1731.743,"endTime":1735.423,"body":"a lot, a lot more blurry than we might think. It's just not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1735.423,"endTime":1739.373,"body":"really- it's not as clear-cut as I think the law in Colorado is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1739.373,"endTime":1744.483,"body":"suggesting. So I've got a few more things to say about, how to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1744.483,"endTime":1746.903,"body":"frame this within a Christian worldview, but give me your take"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1746.903,"endTime":1749.364,"body":"on that, on this first."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1749.364,"endTime":1751.743,"body":"I think the way you framed it, Scott, is helpful"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1751.743,"endTime":1757.243,"body":"in terms of a physician or a therapist who wants to suggest a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1757.243,"endTime":1761.644,"body":"kind of treatment that goes against the mainstream. That's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1761.644,"endTime":1764.423,"body":"question... That, that's a larger question we can explore"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1764.423,"endTime":1769.282,"body":"in itself. My concern here is that I think the mainstream is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1769.282,"endTime":1774.303,"body":"completely misguided, and that therapists, especially Christian"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1774.303,"endTime":1779.083,"body":"therapists, should push back against what's accepted. And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1779.083,"endTime":1783.263,"body":"we've seen this happen in the UK with the Cass report,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1783.263,"endTime":1788.243,"body":"specifically tied to gender-affirming care, not tied"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1788.243,"endTime":1792.282,"body":"to conversion therapy. And what's come out of it is that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1792.282,"endTime":1796.183,"body":"there's been this narrative that has been accepted by the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1796.183,"endTime":1800.144,"body":"mainstream, that we need to move from pronouns, we need to move"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1800.144,"endTime":1803.824,"body":"into puberty blockers, and in many cases, into surgery itself."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1803.824,"endTime":1807.884,"body":"That's what's best for the child. And the Cass report is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1807.884,"endTime":1813.403,"body":"like, \"Time out! There is not the positive results that should"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1813.403,"endTime":1817.163,"body":"be [chuckles] behind this to justify such affirming care.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1817.163,"endTime":1821.243,"body":"They're pushing stop.... In the US, we're still moving forward"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1821.243,"endTime":1825.644,"body":"with this and ignoring the science. Now, not as much"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1825.644,"endTime":1829.923,"body":"research, again, has been done to challenge the narrative that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1829.923,"endTime":1834.584,"body":"conversion therapy is harmful, but I think the studies are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1834.584,"endTime":1838.403,"body":"biased. I think these studies are ideologically driven. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1838.403,"endTime":1841.923,"body":"think the samples are too small from what I've seen. And there"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1841.923,"endTime":1847.604,"body":"was even a study from, Stanton Jones and Mark Yarhouse about 20"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1847.604,"endTime":1852.584,"body":"years ago, a longitudinal study when they were at Wheaton. And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1852.584,"endTime":1856.144,"body":"it was interesting how they categorized, like, success and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1856.144,"endTime":1861.104,"body":"failure based on the goals of the person who came to them."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1861.104,"endTime":1865.203,"body":"What goals did they want? Did they want to change their sexual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1865.203,"endTime":1869.782,"body":"orientation? Did they want to reduce their sexual attraction?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1869.782,"endTime":1873.644,"body":"Did they want to just better control their behavior? And then"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1873.644,"endTime":1879.243,"body":"they assessed, based on their, goals, months, and then again,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1879.243,"endTime":1881.663,"body":"they did a second part of the study, like, six or seven years"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1881.663,"endTime":1886.864,"body":"later. And they basically said there's some evidence of people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1886.864,"endTime":1889.144,"body":"having changed their sexual orientation, or at least"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1889.144,"endTime":1891.663,"body":"reporting it, but that's a small percentage."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1892.542,"endTime":1896.104,"body":"Much more common was just people who said the sexual attraction"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1896.104,"endTime":1900.273,"body":"reduced, \"I was much more able to control my behavior,\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1901.042,"endTime":1901.443,"body":"and then"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1902.023,"endTime":1905.542,"body":"many of them... And really, the report said there's no damage"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1905.542,"endTime":1910.114,"body":"that's done from this kind of, what is called conversion"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1910.114,"endTime":1915.324,"body":"therapy. So the problem is everything has been lumped into"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1915.324,"endTime":1918.563,"body":"what's considered conversion therapy, whether it's shock"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1918.563,"endTime":1921.963,"body":"treatment or sometimes, again, anecdotal, like you said, take a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1921.963,"endTime":1924.923,"body":"male who's not, doesn't say he's attracted to females and show"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1924.923,"endTime":1927.604,"body":"him female porn. I mean, I've heard these stories, [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1927.604,"endTime":1930.923,"body":"and they're just terrible and horrible. Again, how widespread"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1930.923,"endTime":1934.824,"body":"they are, I don't know. But that's lumped in with, like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1934.824,"endTime":1938.943,"body":"prayer. That's lumped in with Bible study. That's lumped in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1938.943,"endTime":1943.042,"body":"with, like, exploring deeper issues that might be at play. We"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1943.042,"endTime":1946.523,"body":"see that with gender dysphoria. Often, there's comorbidities"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1946.523,"endTime":1950.183,"body":"that are deeper, and can we at least explore that that's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1950.183,"endTime":1950.993,"body":"possibility"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1951.542,"endTime":1955.503,"body":"with sexual orientation? And I think the resistance and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1955.503,"endTime":1959.723,"body":"onslaught has been so strong against this because the reason"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1959.723,"endTime":1963.923,"body":"is, sexual orientation on the narrative today, with its"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1963.923,"endTime":1969.743,"body":"Freudian roots, is tied to somebody's identity. So if I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1969.743,"endTime":1973.423,"body":"going to challenge and say you can change, or even as the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1973.423,"endTime":1978.503,"body":"wording in this bill is, even lessen my attraction, that's an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1978.503,"endTime":1980.203,"body":"assault on the idea"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1980.743,"endTime":1986.223,"body":"that my sexual attractions are a part of who I am. So I'm proud"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1986.223,"endTime":1989.263,"body":"of this lady for speaking up. I hope she wins to the Supreme"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1989.263,"endTime":1992.963,"body":"Court. I think a lot is at stake. That's my initial take."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1992.963,"endTime":1993.743,"body":"What do you think?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1993.743,"endTime":1995.384,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a good insight."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1995.943,"endTime":2000.963,"body":"And I don't have any doubt that the, this, that ideology is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2000.963,"endTime":2004.163,"body":"a significant part of what's driving these laws"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2004.923,"endTime":2007.364,"body":"that prohibit conversion therapy."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2007.903,"endTime":2010.923,"body":"But here's... And we've, we've not talked about this before,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2011.824,"endTime":2013.663,"body":"so the point I'm about to make-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2013.663,"endTime":2013.673,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2013.673,"endTime":2015.163,"body":"... And so you may see, you may see this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2015.163,"endTime":2016.463,"body":"differently than me."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2016.463,"endTime":2017.223,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2017.223,"endTime":2017.334,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2017.884,"endTime":2021.963,"body":"I'd, I don't view, if, the, if we wanna bring a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2021.963,"endTime":2025.624,"body":"Christian worldview to this issue, I don't view giving up"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2025.624,"endTime":2029.042,"body":"the desire as necessarily the goal."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2029.763,"endTime":2033.144,"body":"Because I would view the s- the same-sex attraction and the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2033.144,"endTime":2036.364,"body":"trans desires similar to what I would call other disordered"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2036.364,"endTime":2040.003,"body":"desires. They're not the way God intended. They're the result of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2040.003,"endTime":2041.334,"body":"the Fall, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2042.063,"endTime":2045.023,"body":"I'm not, I'm, I'm not so sure about holding people culpable"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2045.023,"endTime":2048.163,"body":"for desires that are not chosen."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2049.063,"endTime":2051.864,"body":"Now, I think you can... There's a lot you can do to nurture"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2051.864,"endTime":2055.463,"body":"those desires. That's, those are choices. Acting out on those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2055.463,"endTime":2058.043,"body":"desires are choices. But I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2058.554,"endTime":2061.204,"body":"for most people who have same-sex attraction,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2062.884,"endTime":2065.583,"body":"the, they don't... This is, this is why they say, \"I was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2065.583,"endTime":2068.643,"body":"born this way,\" because they don't, they, I think they can't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2068.643,"endTime":2070.784,"body":"recognize the point. And I don't believe they were born this way,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2070.784,"endTime":2074.324,"body":"and there's no g- no genetic evidence that, to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2074.324,"endTime":2075.364,"body":"support that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2075.364,"endTime":2075.603,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2075.603,"endTime":2077.443,"body":"But I think what they mean by that is, \"I've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2077.443,"endTime":2081.643,"body":"never... I did- I didn't consciously choose to feel this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2081.643,"endTime":2084.244,"body":"way about the same sex.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2084.244,"endTime":2084.744,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2085.503,"endTime":2087.543,"body":"Now, I think the goal, I would say, is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2087.543,"endTime":2092.503,"body":"contentment without the corresponding behaviors. Not so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2092.503,"endTime":2094.963,"body":"much giving up the desires permanently, though I would, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2094.963,"endTime":2098.884,"body":"would admit that sometimes does happen, but I think those cases"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2098.884,"endTime":2100.983,"body":"are more rare"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2101.603,"endTime":2102.724,"body":"than the norm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2103.364,"endTime":2106.744,"body":"So, and I would say giving up the desire is not a condition"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2106.744,"endTime":2108.643,"body":"of being faithful to Jesus, either."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2109.724,"endTime":2110.543,"body":"Being content"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2111.284,"endTime":2112.423,"body":"without the behavior"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2113.143,"endTime":2113.483,"body":"is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2114.224,"endTime":2117.284,"body":"a condition of being faithful to Jesus. And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2117.864,"endTime":2121.143,"body":"so, and this is why, in my view, to take this a little"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2121.143,"endTime":2123.652,"body":"further, the doctrine of free will is so important for us"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2124.364,"endTime":2128.184,"body":"and why we re- ultimately reject deterministic views of human"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2128.184,"endTime":2132.304,"body":"behavior. Because I think it's really tough to hold people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2132.304,"endTime":2136.523,"body":"accountable for things that they are not choosing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2137.103,"endTime":2140.483,"body":"So the, I would, I would suggest it's, it's similar to the way we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2140.483,"endTime":2144.784,"body":"treat people who have, other, addictions to other disordered"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2144.784,"endTime":2149.324,"body":"desires. Like, we don't, we don't necessarily expect an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2149.324,"endTime":2153.443,"body":"alcoholic to give up the desire for alcohol. What we expect is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2153.443,"endTime":2156.244,"body":"for them to be content with where they are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2157.103,"endTime":2161.003,"body":"without the behavior that's associated with it. We say the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2161.003,"endTime":2164.463,"body":"same thing for people who have a problem with pornography, people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2164.463,"endTime":2167.403,"body":"who have drug addiction, other types of disordered"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2167.403,"endTime":2168.152,"body":"desires."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2169.563,"endTime":2173.583,"body":"So though I admit, the desire is not morally neutral. It's not,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2173.583,"endTime":2176.864,"body":"it's not... It was not part of God's original design. But I do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2176.864,"endTime":2180.003,"body":"think it's, it's... I find it problematic to hold people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2180.003,"endTime":2184.943,"body":"culpable for things that they have not specifically chosen. So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2184.943,"endTime":2189.534,"body":"that's, th- I would say the goal-... Y- if"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2189.534,"endTime":2193.213,"body":"conversion therapy is helpful in lessening that desire, that's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2193.213,"endTime":2196.934,"body":"totally appropriate. And if it does reverse the desire, I say"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2196.934,"endTime":2200.414,"body":"so much the better. But even if it doesn't work,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2201.773,"endTime":2204.873,"body":"I don't, I don't think that necessarily changing someone's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2204.873,"endTime":2205.434,"body":"desire"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2206.193,"endTime":2208.454,"body":"is always the right goal."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2209.373,"endTime":2210.893,"body":"Here's what I would say. Maybe I'd nuance this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2210.893,"endTime":2214.193,"body":"a little bit, and maybe you'd agree with me or not. I would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2214.193,"endTime":2218.574,"body":"agree that the goal is not just to change somebody's same-sex"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2218.574,"endTime":2224.094,"body":"sexual desire, but is that a part of the larger goal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2225.114,"endTime":2226.554,"body":"if that desire-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2226.554,"endTime":2227.873,"body":"It, it could be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2227.873,"endTime":2231.673,"body":"... Malformed or not in line with God's design?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2231.673,"endTime":2234.693,"body":"So same, you gave the example of pornography, you gave the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2234.693,"endTime":2240.853,"body":"example of alcoholism. In all of these, the big goal is to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2240.853,"endTime":2246.134,"body":"holy as [chuckles] God is holy. That's 1 Peter 3. So somebody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2246.134,"endTime":2248.673,"body":"could get rid of the desire for alcoholism"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2249.233,"endTime":2250.114,"body":"and not be holy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2250.673,"endTime":2254.813,"body":"s- because of some other area in their life. Somebody could, you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2254.813,"endTime":2259.273,"body":"know, get rid of the same-sex sexual desire, but then still be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2259.273,"endTime":2262.373,"body":"in sexual perversion in some other fashion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2263.173,"endTime":2265.373,"body":"So the goal is holiness"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2266.594,"endTime":2271.134,"body":"in all areas of our lives. I think that's the goal that we're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2271.134,"endTime":2271.914,"body":"shooting for."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2272.773,"endTime":2276.173,"body":"We've hit on a debate of what's called concupiscence,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2276.893,"endTime":2281.614,"body":"which are certain desires that we have that don't line up with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2281.614,"endTime":2286.753,"body":"how God has designed us to be and wants us to live, but we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2286.753,"endTime":2290.713,"body":"didn't choose those desires. And we don't have to settle this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2290.713,"endTime":2293.813,"body":"right now, but one side would say, \"You're not morally"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2293.813,"endTime":2298.054,"body":"culpable if those desires just emerged. It's what you do with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2298.054,"endTime":2300.233,"body":"them.\" I see the point of that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2300.753,"endTime":2304.603,"body":"Part of me says, \"Well, these desires emerge from my heart."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2304.603,"endTime":2308.634,"body":"These desires emerge from my brokenness. They emerge from my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2308.634,"endTime":2312.813,"body":"character,\" and not just same-sex sexual attraction, all"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2312.813,"endTime":2317.134,"body":"untoward desires. We should mortify the flesh, and they're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2317.134,"endTime":2322.454,"body":"an opportunity to cry out to God for His grace in our lives. We"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2322.454,"endTime":2324.934,"body":"don't have to settle this right now. We could do a whole show on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2324.934,"endTime":2328.813,"body":"this at some point. I think that's where this, these debates"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2328.813,"endTime":2331.954,"body":"kind of go. But I just want people to see that this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2331.954,"endTime":2337.054,"body":"conversion therapy, the nuance, the debates is often left out of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2337.054,"endTime":2343.213,"body":"this. The idea of just prayer, Bible study, confession before"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2343.213,"endTime":2348.173,"body":"the Lord, and trying to align my desires with who I think God has"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2348.173,"endTime":2353.114,"body":"made me to be, if that is not allowed by a licensed therapist"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2353.634,"endTime":2357.534,"body":"to somebody who comes to them and says, \"I want help with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2357.534,"endTime":2361.893,"body":"this,\" something is profoundly wrong with our system,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2362.414,"endTime":2365.833,"body":"and we need the Supreme Court to shoot this down. So this is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2365.833,"endTime":2368.673,"body":"something maybe we can be in prayer about as well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2368.673,"endTime":2369.333,"body":"Hear, hear."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2369.333,"endTime":2371.373,"body":"So, all right, one more story, Scott, and then"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2371.373,"endTime":2374.813,"body":"we'll get to a couple questions. This week, the big story in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2374.813,"endTime":2379.934,"body":"news was that Israel-Hamas cease fire. Now, this was not... And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2379.934,"endTime":2384.653,"body":"the hostage deal. This is not a peace plan. It's step one in a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2384.653,"endTime":2389.514,"body":"multi-part, multi-step peace plan that Trump is putting"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2389.514,"endTime":2393.893,"body":"forward. But it's hard not to see this and have a certain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2393.893,"endTime":2398.653,"body":"sense of hope, and joy, and optimism. And part of me, Scott,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2398.653,"endTime":2402.193,"body":"knowing what happened on October 7th, two years ago, and that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2402.193,"endTime":2406.373,"body":"there's still about 20 people who are hostages in Israel,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2407.034,"endTime":2411.634,"body":"and the people in Gaza still suffering, saying, \"Please,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2411.634,"endTime":2415.744,"body":"[chuckles] Lord, may this go through and may we have peace,\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2416.333,"endTime":2419.253,"body":"it's something to pray for. Some of the details, I'm sure people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2419.253,"endTime":2424.213,"body":"have been tracking this, but the, there's-- Trump"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2424.213,"endTime":2429.434,"body":"has this, like, 20-point plan that he hasn't laid out yet. And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2429.434,"endTime":2430.893,"body":"some of the things like who's gonna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2431.914,"endTime":2435.494,"body":"rule over the Gaza Strip when this is done, exactly when the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2435.494,"endTime":2440.293,"body":"fighting ends, the ultimate fate of Hamas, some of these things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2440.293,"endTime":2445.373,"body":"have not been settled yet, but we are moving towards a final"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2445.373,"endTime":2450.503,"body":"signing, where about 2,000, roughly, prisoners from before"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2450.503,"endTime":2455.733,"body":"and during the war of, Palestine will be released to 20"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2456.414,"endTime":2457.494,"body":"of the remaining,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2458.074,"endTime":2461.804,"body":"hostages. And by the way, Hamas said it's probably gonna take"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2461.804,"endTime":2465.853,"body":"them longer, like maybe 10 days, to even find the remains"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2466.474,"endTime":2467.994,"body":"of some of the other hostages"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2468.574,"endTime":2472.293,"body":"that were killed. So many more details could be said, but tell"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2472.293,"endTime":2474.653,"body":"me your take on this. How do we think biblically about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2474.653,"endTime":2475.054,"body":"this?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2475.054,"endTime":2476.893,"body":"Well, I think you're right. This is only a first"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2476.893,"endTime":2480.793,"body":"phase. I say it's significant progress, but a long way from a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2480.793,"endTime":2485.253,"body":"comprehensive agreement. Israel still has a significant presence"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2485.253,"endTime":2489.414,"body":"in Gaza. They've, they've moved back, or will be moving back, to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2489.414,"endTime":2493.653,"body":"occupying about half of the area. And you're right that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2493.653,"endTime":2494.954,"body":"Israel's releasing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2495.853,"endTime":2497.503,"body":"a whole, a whole lot more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2498.353,"endTime":2499.143,"body":"than,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2499.653,"endTime":2501.873,"body":"the, than the number of hostages."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2502.793,"endTime":2505.793,"body":"So the releases, I think, are heavily disproportionate, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2505.793,"endTime":2509.543,"body":"there's s- really critical issues still to be determined"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2510.213,"endTime":2514.153,"body":"about Hamas disarming, further withdrawal of Is- of Israeli's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2514.153,"endTime":2518.634,"body":"forces, who governs and secures Gaza in the future, what's to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2518.634,"endTime":2520.273,"body":"prevent this from happening again"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2520.833,"endTime":2523.833,"body":"in the future? The question that raises for me"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2524.693,"endTime":2528.393,"body":"is, what will a lasting peace require?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2529.753,"endTime":2529.974,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2530.673,"endTime":2534.693,"body":"there have been several comments on this. [lips smack]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2534.693,"endTime":2538.014,"body":"and I think that what it requires ultimately, Sean, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2538.014,"endTime":2541.173,"body":"don't think is anything militarily,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2541.693,"endTime":2545.353,"body":"anything by government, but it's a, it's a cultural and a, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2545.353,"endTime":2549.853,"body":"think eventually a change in people's hearts. And here's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2550.693,"endTime":2553.673,"body":"Brett Stephens was quoted in the New York Times a couple"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2553.673,"endTime":2555.713,"body":"of days ago when he saw this coming,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2556.434,"endTime":2559.054,"body":"and about sort of what have we learned from the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2559.054,"endTime":2562.614,"body":"two-year war?... And one of the p- one of the points he makes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2563.273,"endTime":2567.034,"body":"is that the only, I'm quoting him here, \"The only"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2567.034,"endTime":2569.992,"body":"viable path to a sustainable Palestinian state"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2570.853,"endTime":2574.432,"body":"is a cultural revolution among Palestinians that ends once and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2574.432,"endTime":2577.344,"body":"for all the fantasy of Israel's destruction.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2578.173,"endTime":2581.034,"body":"This is why I think militant groups such as Hamas and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2581.034,"endTime":2585.233,"body":"Hezbollah, that have Israel's destruction in their charters,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2585.992,"endTime":2588.313,"body":"I think have rightly been ruled out"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2589.034,"endTime":2593.472,"body":"as being on the table for authorities in Gaza or in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2593.472,"endTime":2598.793,"body":"West Bank. And I think what- the argument that Israel needs"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2598.793,"endTime":2599.273,"body":"to make"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2599.952,"endTime":2603.952,"body":"is about the right of their country to exist as a Jewish"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2603.952,"endTime":2604.492,"body":"state."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2605.273,"endTime":2607.452,"body":"And I would say, Sean, that no different than the right of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2607.452,"endTime":2611.114,"body":"Irish to an Irish state, or the right of the Greeks to a Greek"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2611.114,"endTime":2612.193,"body":"state."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2613.114,"endTime":2616.432,"body":"And I think this is, you know, there's, you know, there,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2616.432,"endTime":2619.452,"body":"there's, there's been excesses on both sides, though I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2619.452,"endTime":2622.634,"body":"don't... I think you- we can debate about the p- the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2622.634,"endTime":2623.932,"body":"proportionality of it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2625.652,"endTime":2627.054,"body":"But I think it's, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2627.653,"endTime":2631.452,"body":"for Israel, I think it's been challenging for them to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2631.452,"endTime":2632.472,"body":"try to make peace"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2633.074,"endTime":2633.393,"body":"with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2634.012,"endTime":2636.992,"body":"groups who are committed to their destruction."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2637.673,"endTime":2640.972,"body":"And so it's... I think it is not unreasonable for Israel to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2640.972,"endTime":2643.554,"body":"assume, to have assumed going into this, that they don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2643.554,"endTime":2647.492,"body":"really have a partner for peace. Now, whether that may"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2647.492,"endTime":2651.793,"body":"change or not, it sounds like, you know, the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2651.793,"endTime":2653.273,"body":"the Palestinians were celebrating"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2653.932,"endTime":2657.333,"body":"yesterday, that the ceasefire might actually take hold"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2658.012,"endTime":2659.762,"body":"and provide relief for them."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2661.574,"endTime":2664.793,"body":"But, you know, the devil's in the details"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2665.492,"endTime":2669.012,"body":"on this, and we'll see kinda what the rest of it involves and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2669.012,"endTime":2669.284,"body":"where"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2669.893,"endTime":2672.054,"body":"people invariably will push back"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2672.653,"endTime":2674.913,"body":"on some of the details of the proposal."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2675.753,"endTime":2679.432,"body":"So anyway, that's where- that's my take on this. I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2679.432,"endTime":2685.833,"body":"delighted that, we ha- we have a ce- a ceasefire. However, there"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2685.833,"endTime":2688.713,"body":"was a, there was a ceasefire in place-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2688.713,"endTime":2688.733,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2688.733,"endTime":2691.313,"body":"... Before October 7th of 2023."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2692.413,"endTime":2692.693,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2693.253,"endTime":2697.054,"body":"I understand the skepticism on both sides"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2697.833,"endTime":2701.663,"body":"about whether ceasefires will be a lasting thing."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2702.932,"endTime":2704.853,"body":"It is kind of remarkable. If you told me some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2704.853,"endTime":2709.153,"body":"time ago that both Palestinians and Israelis would be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2709.153,"endTime":2712.273,"body":"celebrating a deal, I would've thought, \"I don't even know what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2712.273,"endTime":2715.733,"body":"that conceivably [chuckles] looks like.\" So that's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2715.733,"endTime":2719.713,"body":"positive first step as far as I could tell, that both sides were"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2719.713,"endTime":2723.873,"body":"positive about this. I think that just shows how people are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2723.873,"endTime":2725.213,"body":"weary from the war."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2725.873,"endTime":2730.213,"body":"There's Israelis who have lost so many. I read about one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2730.213,"endTime":2734.682,"body":"Palestinian today who said 150 people in his extended family"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2734.682,"endTime":2740.014,"body":"were dead. I mean, that's just a tragedy, however you look at it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2740.014,"endTime":2741.742,"body":"I think you're right. You know, I think it was Martin Luther"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2741.742,"endTime":2744.532,"body":"King Jr. Who's like... I don't remember the wording, but it was"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2744.532,"endTime":2746.873,"body":"the effect of, and you can correct me on this one, Scott,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2746.873,"endTime":2750.514,"body":"it's like, \"Laws can't make my neighbor love me, but they can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2750.514,"endTime":2752.822,"body":"prevent him from lynching me.\" [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2752.822,"endTime":2752.903,"body":"Close enough."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2752.903,"endTime":2756.992,"body":"Like, the government has a role. So you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2756.992,"endTime":2760.492,"body":"right. Like, there could be some peace plan, potentially, if"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2760.492,"endTime":2764.293,"body":"there were laws in place and strong enough military. Like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2764.293,"endTime":2768.273,"body":"that seemed to somewhat last for a while, but then it was blown"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2768.273,"endTime":2773.753,"body":"up on October 7th. Lasting peace is only gonna come about with a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2773.753,"endTime":2777.532,"body":"change of heart. A change of heart. Now, I find it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2777.532,"endTime":2779.853,"body":"interesting, and I know some Christians would disagree with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2779.853,"endTime":2784.054,"body":"this, but you go back to the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 12"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2784.054,"endTime":2789.253,"body":"and 15 and 17. It's like, \"I will bless those who bless you,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2789.253,"endTime":2794.153,"body":"and I will curse those who curse you.\" Now, I understand there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2794.153,"endTime":2798.432,"body":"a difference between the nation of Israel under that promise"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2799.074,"endTime":2799.373,"body":"and the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2799.893,"endTime":2803.753,"body":"nation of Israel today. I don't know that you can map every"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2803.753,"endTime":2806.893,"body":"single thing on identically, and that certainly wouldn't give"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2806.893,"endTime":2811.094,"body":"Israel a pass to do whatever they want. They still need to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2811.094,"endTime":2814.893,"body":"held accountable, as actually they were in the Old Testament"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2814.893,"endTime":2818.594,"body":"at times when they did things that were immoral. But I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2818.594,"endTime":2819.893,"body":"there's commonality in land,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2820.472,"endTime":2824.893,"body":"commonality in the traditions, commonality in the language,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2824.893,"endTime":2827.913,"body":"that actually, for the Palestinian people and so much"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2827.913,"endTime":2829.014,"body":"[chuckles] of the Middle East,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2829.554,"endTime":2835.273,"body":"if they would come to accept and not want to destroy Israel, it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2835.273,"endTime":2839.193,"body":"would actually lead to the flourishing of all people in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2839.193,"endTime":2843.373,"body":"area and beyond, and that only takes place with a change of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2843.373,"endTime":2843.813,"body":"heart."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2844.653,"endTime":2848.713,"body":"That feels impossible, right? Like, you just feel like, \"How"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2848.713,"endTime":2852.074,"body":"is that possible?\" But you know what? I've been reading Luke,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2852.074,"endTime":2855.554,"body":"and it's like, with God, all things are possible, and we can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2855.554,"endTime":2858.432,"body":"pray for that. And if this doesn't work out, it's like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2858.432,"endTime":2861.992,"body":"we've given it the best try [chuckles] that we can. I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2861.992,"endTime":2866.753,"body":"that's all that we can do, so I'm optimistically encouraged"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2866.753,"endTime":2870.913,"body":"and just hoping and praying, step by step, that we can get to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2870.913,"endTime":2872.853,"body":"the place that you're talking about."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2874.373,"endTime":2877.173,"body":"Hear, hear. I say that, you know, let's wait and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2877.173,"endTime":2881.443,"body":"let's wait and see for phase two and three, and see where we are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2881.443,"endTime":2883.793,"body":"after that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2883.793,"endTime":2885.032,"body":"All right, Scott, let's take two of these"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2885.032,"endTime":2888.074,"body":"questions today. Let's pick these out. We always get more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2888.074,"endTime":2889.242,"body":"than we can take."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2890.393,"endTime":2892.873,"body":"This one says- \"Recently, our pastoral staff has started"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2892.873,"endTime":2896.932,"body":"making baptism a requirement to participate in communion. This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2896.932,"endTime":2900.114,"body":"is a new concept for me. Biblically, I believe baptism is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2900.114,"endTime":2902.653,"body":"important in the life of a believer, but this is the first"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2902.653,"endTime":2905.833,"body":"time I've heard that baptism is a prerequisite for... To"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2905.833,"endTime":2909.153,"body":"communion. Our lead pastor explained baptism is a door that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2909.153,"endTime":2912.094,"body":"allows Christians to come to the table and take communion. I'd"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2912.094,"endTime":2914.074,"body":"love to know your thoughts on this topic, as I try to think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2914.074,"endTime":2916.733,"body":"biblically about it. Does the Bible teach that baptism is a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2916.733,"endTime":2919.163,"body":"requirement to participate in communion?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2920.514,"endTime":2922.054,"body":"Sean, I'm not aware"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2922.653,"endTime":2924.733,"body":"of any place that makes baptism"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2925.413,"endTime":2927.632,"body":"a condition for communion...."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2928.262,"endTime":2930.762,"body":"Now, faith is-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2930.762,"endTime":2931.081,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2931.081,"endTime":2935.161,"body":"And, and I say, but Paul is very clear in 1"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2935.161,"endTime":2937.431,"body":"Corinthians 11 that self-examination"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2938.422,"endTime":2941.181,"body":"is a condition. Harboring sin"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2941.822,"endTime":2943.461,"body":"is a condition."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2944.362,"endTime":2949.362,"body":"But it sounds like if baptism is a door, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2949.362,"endTime":2952.641,"body":"can, I can see that as a, as a, as an open door, but not a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2952.641,"endTime":2954.181,"body":"closed one."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2955.521,"endTime":2956.802,"body":"And so I think, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2957.452,"endTime":2960.001,"body":"i- we need to emphasize that, you know, baptism is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2960.001,"endTime":2963.922,"body":"the public proclamation of faith that's expected of people when"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2963.922,"endTime":2968.282,"body":"they come to faith. But, you know, in my case, it w- it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2968.282,"endTime":2970.862,"body":"was, you know, we- Young Life didn't baptize people."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2971.69,"endTime":2974.322,"body":"And, we weren't really involved in a, in a local church that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2974.322,"endTime":2979.001,"body":"much that did, that did much baptizing. And so I, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2979.001,"endTime":2982.322,"body":"I, my- I didn't get baptized until I was a pastoral intern"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2983.202,"endTime":2984.561,"body":"when I was a seminary student."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2985.882,"endTime":2988.202,"body":"Should I have been denied communion for-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2988.981,"endTime":2989.521,"body":"... You know, probably"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2990.402,"endTime":2991.961,"body":"six, seven or eight years,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2992.702,"endTime":2996.181,"body":"before that? I don't, I don't see, I don't see anything in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2996.181,"endTime":2999.742,"body":"scripture that makes that, a closed door"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3000.461,"endTime":3002.681,"body":"for people from taking communion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3003.922,"endTime":3005.722,"body":"I think that's a good answer. I mean, to be a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3005.722,"endTime":3009.882,"body":"believer is... Faith is what is required. And, you know, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3009.882,"endTime":3012.882,"body":"there's some references in 1 Corinthians about your life and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3012.882,"endTime":3016.802,"body":"your conscience before the Lord being right, like sin against a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3016.802,"endTime":3022.001,"body":"brother, but there's nothing about communion being required."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3022.001,"endTime":3025.461,"body":"So that's a red flag for me in principle, especially when I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3025.461,"endTime":3029.922,"body":"read books like Galatians, that's like people were adding"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3029.922,"endTime":3034.882,"body":"on top of salvation by faith, and it was so clear that it is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3034.882,"endTime":3038.621,"body":"by grace, not by works. Of course, that's Ephesians"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3039.262,"endTime":3043.112,"body":"or in Titus, not works of righteousness that we have done,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3043.112,"endTime":3047.242,"body":"that when we start adding steps, it gives me a red flag. Now,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3047.242,"endTime":3051.242,"body":"this is not a step for salvation, so I'm glad they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3051.242,"endTime":3056.041,"body":"didn't say that. In some ways, I could maybe, and this is just a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3056.041,"endTime":3058.681,"body":"maybe, I don't know how to land this any better, if there was a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3058.681,"endTime":3060.442,"body":"church that was really clear"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3061.001,"endTime":3065.121,"body":"in terms of saying, \"Look, this is for us. Our leadership wants"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3065.121,"endTime":3068.751,"body":"to emphasize the importance of having a public statement of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3068.751,"endTime":3073.322,"body":"baptism, and so we've decided from the top down that we're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3073.322,"endTime":3077.641,"body":"gonna hold communion for these reasons, even though it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3077.641,"endTime":3082.021,"body":"mean you're not saved,\" I could maybe, [chuckles] the best I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3082.021,"endTime":3087.222,"body":"could do is say maybe. It's still a red flag for me, 'cause"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3087.222,"endTime":3090.302,"body":"I could think of a lot of exceptions, like you said, where"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3090.302,"endTime":3095.181,"body":"we wouldn't wanna do that. So red flag, pause. I'd go in and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3095.181,"endTime":3098.501,"body":"talk with the pastor and get a lot more clarification of what's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3098.501,"endTime":3101.561,"body":"behind it, why they do it, what the biblical basis is,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3102.242,"endTime":3104.771,"body":"and start there, would be, would be my suggestion."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3104.771,"endTime":3106.311,"body":"Yeah. I would, I would expect that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3106.842,"endTime":3110.041,"body":"the reason is sort of like what you explained, that they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3110.041,"endTime":3112.181,"body":"would emphasize the importance- ... Of baptism, but I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3112.181,"endTime":3115.262,"body":"do it by holding communion hostage to it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3116.722,"endTime":3118.661,"body":"Good, good stuff. I think that's wise. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3118.661,"endTime":3123.461,"body":"think that's good stuff. All right, in a recent episode"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3123.461,"endTime":3128.181,"body":"on physician-assisted suicide, Scott routinely referred to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3128.181,"endTime":3132.322,"body":"medical aid in dying. That is the term that promoters of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3132.322,"endTime":3136.661,"body":"euthanasia and assisted suicide use to obfuscate that doctors"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3136.661,"endTime":3139.961,"body":"are actively involved in killing people. Wouldn't it be better to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3139.961,"endTime":3143.001,"body":"use terms that shed light on what is really going on?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3143.581,"endTime":3146.601,"body":"Seems to me we shouldn't participate with the anti-God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3146.601,"endTime":3150.402,"body":"crowd and rename evil to make it sound more palatable. I'd love"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3150.402,"endTime":3152.661,"body":"to hear you address this issue."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3152.661,"endTime":3156.242,"body":"Well, for one, the podcast with Dr. Gallagher"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3156.242,"endTime":3157.481,"body":"was really clear"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3158.021,"endTime":3161.061,"body":"what our view of medical aid in dying was."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3162.001,"endTime":3165.981,"body":"We were not, we were not trying to obfuscate anything, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3165.981,"endTime":3168.242,"body":"don't think that we're being a- we're not being accused of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3168.242,"endTime":3170.842,"body":"But I would say that the language that you use might"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3170.842,"endTime":3172.481,"body":"depend on the setting."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3172.481,"endTime":3172.862,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3172.862,"endTime":3176.021,"body":"Because for s- for some settings, using that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3176.021,"endTime":3178.902,"body":"language will get you marginalized and precludes you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3178.902,"endTime":3182.942,"body":"from entering the conversation, and I don't wanna, I don't wanna"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3182.942,"endTime":3186.621,"body":"do that. I think for... In other settings, I think it's totally"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3186.621,"endTime":3187.802,"body":"appropriate."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3188.621,"endTime":3192.581,"body":"Nobody- I mean, everybody knows that, you know, doctors are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3192.581,"endTime":3196.282,"body":"actually causing the death of patients in medical aid in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3196.282,"endTime":3196.692,"body":"dying."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3197.612,"endTime":3200.161,"body":"Though the category, I think, is a little bit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3200.161,"endTime":3204.121,"body":"broader to also include the termination of life support, in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3204.121,"endTime":3207.282,"body":"addition to euthanasia and assisted suicide. So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3208.342,"endTime":3211.001,"body":"it's, it's, it's, it's a broader umbrella term"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3211.681,"endTime":3215.302,"body":"that doesn't just refer to those two things- ... But it refers"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3215.302,"endTime":3217.802,"body":"to, you know, and the termination of life support may"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3217.802,"endTime":3221.922,"body":"be totally appropriate. Now, it may not be, but I'd say not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3221.922,"endTime":3224.101,"body":"necessarily, that's not necessarily inappropriate, as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3224.101,"endTime":3227.402,"body":"we've talked about several times before, that if death is a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3227.402,"endTime":3230.541,"body":"conquered enemy in sc- in the Scriptures, it need not always"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3230.541,"endTime":3234.021,"body":"be resisted by medical means. That doesn't mean that doctors"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3234.021,"endTime":3236.061,"body":"can actively be the cause of death"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3236.681,"endTime":3237.702,"body":"for a patient. So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3238.222,"endTime":3241.242,"body":"if I wanna, if I wanna be in the conversation with Canadian"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3241.242,"endTime":3245.021,"body":"physicians, who some of whom are practicing this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3245.541,"endTime":3248.742,"body":"I probably need to use the term that's gonna get me a seat at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3248.742,"endTime":3249.211,"body":"the table."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3250.822,"endTime":3252.942,"body":"Fair enough. You know, part of the debate is just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3252.942,"endTime":3257.061,"body":"the power of words to define things. So even"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3257.061,"endTime":3259.021,"body":"gender-affirming care"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3259.561,"endTime":3264.521,"body":"is titled in a positive way, 'cause it shapes the way we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3264.521,"endTime":3267.061,"body":"think about it, right? That sounds more attractive than"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3267.061,"endTime":3272.061,"body":"gender non-affirming care. So your key point is, yeah, words"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3272.061,"endTime":3276.621,"body":"matter, depend on the context, but the key is that we are clear"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3276.621,"endTime":3279.041,"body":"and describe what is going on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3279.601,"endTime":3284.202,"body":"apart from the term itself, and in the podcast, you were very,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3284.202,"endTime":3286.802,"body":"very clear about what medical aid in dying"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3287.362,"endTime":3290.362,"body":"really is and what it entails and the evils behind it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3290.362,"endTime":3292.782,"body":"Yeah, and the language we use can often be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3292.782,"endTime":3298.882,"body":"used to, express disapproval of a practice- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3298.882,"endTime":3302.021,"body":"As well. You know, we, instead of calling it female"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3302.021,"endTime":3305.461,"body":"circumcision, we re- routinely refer to that as genital"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3305.461,"endTime":3306.621,"body":"mutilation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3307.641,"endTime":3309.442,"body":"And I think, you know, rightly so,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3309.981,"endTime":3313.161,"body":"because that's, that's, this is a true picture of what it is. So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3313.802,"endTime":3315.601,"body":"it does... You know, the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3316.942,"endTime":3321.262,"body":"words mean something, regardless of how you feel about the pr-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3321.262,"endTime":3324.072,"body":"the particular pros and cons of a specific issue."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3325.021,"endTime":3327.902,"body":"Well said. Good, good response. All right, my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3327.902,"endTime":3332.981,"body":"man, already looking forward to our conversation next week. This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3332.981,"endTime":3335.302,"body":"has been an episode of the podcast, Think Biblically-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3335.302,"endTime":3337.961,"body":"Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to you by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3337.961,"endTime":3341.521,"body":"Talbot School of Theology, Biola University, where Scott and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3341.521,"endTime":3344.342,"body":"both teach, and we have master's programs in philosophy,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3344.342,"endTime":3348.362,"body":"apologetics, Old Testament, New Testament, marriage and family,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3348.362,"endTime":3352.461,"body":"spiritual formation, and so much more, in person and online. Keep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3352.461,"endTime":3356.092,"body":"your excellent questions and comments coming. You can email"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3356.092,"endTime":3361.641,"body":"us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. We would love it if you'd please"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3361.641,"endTime":3364.762,"body":"take a minute and give us a rating on your podcast. Of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3364.762,"endTime":3368.762,"body":"course, we want a five-star, but we want an honest one. Every"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3368.762,"endTime":3373.342,"body":"rating helps. Thanks so much for listening, and we will see you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3373.342,"endTime":3377.802,"body":"Tuesday when our regular episode airs. In the meantime, remember"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3377.802,"endTime":3387.541,"body":"to think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}