{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.78,"body":"[upbeat music] Should Christians vote? How"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4.78,"endTime":8.72,"body":"should Christians think about miscarriage? And why oppose laws"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":8.72,"endTime":11.06,"body":"that punish a woman who has an abortion"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":11.58,"endTime":15.16,"body":"if it ends the life of an innocent human being? I'm here"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":15.16,"endTime":18.039,"body":"with my colleague, friend, co-host Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":18.039,"endTime":18.14,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":18.14,"endTime":21.32,"body":"We've had people submit 10 good questions, and we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":21.32,"endTime":25.079,"body":"have a bonus if we have time. You ready to rock and roll and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":25.079,"endTime":25.98,"body":"tackle some of these?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":25.98,"endTime":28.3,"body":"I love being able to do this, and we get... I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":28.3,"endTime":31.26,"body":"think our listeners should know, we get way more questions than"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":31.26,"endTime":33.32,"body":"we can handle on a weekly cultural update."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":33.32,"endTime":33.84,"body":"For sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":33.84,"endTime":36.299,"body":"And so this is a, this is a backlog of questions,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":36.299,"endTime":39.259,"body":"and what we're finding is about once a month-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":39.259,"endTime":39.268,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":39.268,"endTime":41.0,"body":"... Once every six weeks, we get a backlog of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":41.0,"endTime":43.6,"body":"questions like this, and so it's a great opportunity-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":43.6,"endTime":43.67,"body":"Let's do it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":43.67,"endTime":46.5,"body":"... For us to just go for it and take all"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":46.5,"endTime":48.88,"body":"your- take all the questions that we have. They're all good"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":48.88,"endTime":49.399,"body":"ones."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":49.399,"endTime":50.28,"body":"They're all good ones."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":50.28,"endTime":52.039,"body":"So we're look- I'm looking forward to getting into"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":52.039,"endTime":52.42,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":52.42,"endTime":54.84,"body":"And there's a range of different topics, which"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":54.84,"endTime":57.259,"body":"I think is gonna make it interesting. Well, let's dive"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":57.259,"endTime":60.14,"body":"in. This first question says- \"How do you share the Gospel of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":60.14,"endTime":64.78,"body":"Jesus Christ, particularly the deity of Christ, to a former"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":64.78,"endTime":67.18,"body":"Christian who now considers themselves spiritually and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":67.18,"endTime":69.049,"body":"morge- morally Judeo-Christian,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":69.659,"endTime":73.7,"body":"but who no longer believes that Jesus is God?\" Now, let me jump"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":73.7,"endTime":77.64,"body":"in with some thoughts on this one. Before I would launch into,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":77.64,"endTime":81.48,"body":"in someone like this, like, all the verses or fulfilled prophecy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":81.48,"endTime":85.34,"body":"or evidences that Jesus is God, I want to hear this person's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":85.34,"endTime":85.959,"body":"story."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":85.959,"endTime":86.4,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":86.4,"endTime":88.7,"body":"Why did they leave the Christian faith? Was"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":88.7,"endTime":91.719,"body":"it experiential? Was it theological?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":92.459,"endTime":96.959,"body":"Was there hypocrisy that they saw? Were they argued out of it?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":96.959,"endTime":100.64,"body":"And why doesn't this person believe that Jesus is God? So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":100.64,"endTime":103.14,"body":"step number one is if you want to bring somebody back to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":103.14,"endTime":106.319,"body":"fold [chuckles] of believing Jesus is God, identify the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":106.319,"endTime":110.98,"body":"problem first as best as you can, and then address it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":110.98,"endTime":113.459,"body":"So, so don't provide a theological answer for what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":113.459,"endTime":114.019,"body":"might not be-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":114.019,"endTime":114.129,"body":"It-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":114.129,"endTime":115.12,"body":"... A theological question."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":115.12,"endTime":117.379,"body":"Exactly, theological, biblical, and that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":117.379,"endTime":119.939,"body":"involves just listening. I imagine there's a story behind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":119.939,"endTime":121.87,"body":"this that could be hurtful."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":121.87,"endTime":121.909,"body":"It has to be."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":121.909,"endTime":124.04,"body":"Could be painful. I just wanna know"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":124.04,"endTime":126.959,"body":"what's at the root of it. I also kind of want to assess how open"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":126.959,"endTime":129.78,"body":"is this person to hearing evidence? Do they wanna know?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":129.78,"endTime":132.58,"body":"Are they eager to go to the Scriptures? Or is their mind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":132.58,"endTime":135.659,"body":"made up, and they're like the rich, young ruler who's like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":135.659,"endTime":138.439,"body":"\"Sorry,\" Jesus lets him walk away. So I wanna know the root"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":138.439,"endTime":142.36,"body":"of the issue. I wanna know their openness. Now, if this person is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":142.36,"endTime":145.539,"body":"not convinced that Jesus is God, I think you can make this case"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":145.539,"endTime":146.4,"body":"from Mark."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":146.919,"endTime":151.62,"body":"I think consistently, I think all f- all four Gospels do this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":151.62,"endTime":154.139,"body":"And I have a short YouTube video in which I walk through Mark 1"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":154.139,"endTime":157.699,"body":"and Mark 2 [chuckles] and Mark 3 and Mark 4, in which He does and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":157.699,"endTime":161.819,"body":"says things that point to His deity. But I do think the Gospel"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":161.819,"endTime":165.62,"body":"of John is the clearest. I would go right to John 1-1, \"In the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":165.62,"endTime":170.659,"body":"beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":170.659,"endTime":176.199,"body":"God.\" And theos is used, like, in terms of theology, for Jesus."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":176.199,"endTime":179.34,"body":"That's one of the few places. You see in John, chapter"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":179.96,"endTime":180.219,"body":"5-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":180.219,"endTime":181.15,"body":"I'd say go-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":181.15,"endTime":181.419,"body":"And-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":181.419,"endTime":183.439,"body":"... Go to verse 14, too, in chapter 1."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":183.439,"endTime":184.25,"body":"There's more in 14."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":184.25,"endTime":185.28,"body":"It says the... It says-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":185.28,"endTime":185.759,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":185.759,"endTime":187.379,"body":"... The Word, the Word, this, which the Word, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":187.379,"endTime":190.96,"body":"Word is identified as Jesus Himself, who became flesh"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":191.56,"endTime":192.62,"body":"and dwelt among us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":192.62,"endTime":194.78,"body":"And then in verse 18, referred again as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":194.78,"endTime":197.86,"body":"theos, as God. I think the clear passages are John"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":198.419,"endTime":202.419,"body":"5, where he, it- they're saying He makes Himself... Refers to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":202.419,"endTime":206.759,"body":"His Father, making Himself equal to God."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":207.34,"endTime":212.56,"body":"Of course, John 8-58, when He says, \"Before Abraham was born,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":212.56,"endTime":213.819,"body":"I am.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":213.819,"endTime":214.5,"body":"Yeah, now that-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":214.5,"endTime":215.509,"body":"John 10-30 and 31"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":215.509,"endTime":218.28,"body":"... That takes, that takes a little interpretation."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":218.28,"endTime":220.259,"body":"Which goes back to Exodus 3-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":220.259,"endTime":220.409,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":220.409,"endTime":222.879,"body":"... The reference Jesus is referring to."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":222.879,"endTime":225.259,"body":"It's, it's the way God referred to Himself to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":225.259,"endTime":226.419,"body":"Moses."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":226.419,"endTime":226.699,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":226.699,"endTime":229.4,"body":"And Jesus is using the same, the same language that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":229.4,"endTime":231.5,"body":"God used to describe Himself."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":231.5,"endTime":233.56,"body":"Exactly. Good. So in some ways, you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":233.56,"endTime":236.039,"body":"gonna have to read these passages, unpack them a little"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":236.039,"endTime":238.139,"body":"bit, but these are the passages that I would go to."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":238.139,"endTime":240.31,"body":"Like, and I cut you off before you got to John-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":240.31,"endTime":240.31,"body":"You did"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":240.31,"endTime":242.099,"body":"... John 10-30, and that's probably the clearest one"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":242.099,"endTime":242.789,"body":"of them all."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":242.789,"endTime":245.039,"body":"I think that's right, 30 and 31, where He says,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":245.039,"endTime":248.96,"body":"\"I and the Father are one,\" and they pick up stones to kill Him,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":248.96,"endTime":252.84,"body":"and then it says later, because He's making Himself equal to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":252.84,"endTime":253.319,"body":"God."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":254.08,"endTime":257.8,"body":"And then John 20-28, where before Thomas, I think this is a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":257.8,"endTime":262.019,"body":"climax to the Gospel, where he goes, you know, Jesus says to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":262.019,"endTime":264.74,"body":"him, \"You can feel the wounds in my hand and my side,\" et cetera,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":264.74,"endTime":268.86,"body":"but just seeing Jesus is clear that He's God. And he says, \"My"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":268.86,"endTime":269.279,"body":"Lord"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":269.839,"endTime":272.699,"body":"and my God.\" And this is not going... Thomas is saying, \"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":272.699,"endTime":273.25,"body":"my God!\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":273.25,"endTime":273.25,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":273.25,"endTime":276.279,"body":"\"This is my Lord and my God.\" So if this... So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":276.279,"endTime":279.259,"body":"bottom line to me, I've been reading the Gospel of John daily"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":279.259,"endTime":283.12,"body":"for three months and just been overwhelmed and impressed with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":283.12,"endTime":287.56,"body":"the clear claims of deity that Jesus makes. So I'd invite this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":287.56,"endTime":291.87,"body":"person to go read through John and own it, and ask this person,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":291.87,"endTime":295.12,"body":"\"Are you willing to talk this through with me?\" That's how I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":295.12,"endTime":297.019,"body":"would approach it. What would you add?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":297.019,"endTime":298.86,"body":"My... Sean, my first response to this is I would"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":298.86,"endTime":302.06,"body":"share the deity of Christ with this person, same way I would do"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":302.06,"endTime":303.37,"body":"with anybody else."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":303.37,"endTime":304.399,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":304.399,"endTime":306.54,"body":"And I would, I would listen to their backstory"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":307.339,"endTime":309.699,"body":"of, well, you know, \"What, what has sparked your interest in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":309.699,"endTime":312.819,"body":"this? What's...\" You know, \"What's... Tell, tell, just sort"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":312.819,"endTime":316.12,"body":"of tell me a little bit about your spiritual journey.\" And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":316.12,"endTime":319.48,"body":"then, you know, I'd also, I'd also wanna kn- wanna assess, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":319.48,"endTime":322.399,"body":"know, are they open to hearing evidence? You know, are they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":322.399,"endTime":323.22,"body":"open to listen?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":324.199,"endTime":326.36,"body":"Because, you know, Jesus warns us"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":326.92,"endTime":327.459,"body":"against"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":328.06,"endTime":332.48,"body":"giving, you know, giving hard truth"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":333.06,"endTime":335.0,"body":"to people who are not inclined to receive it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":336.399,"endTime":338.519,"body":"And so I think we need to be discerning about that. But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":338.519,"endTime":342.199,"body":"assuming they're open to hearing it, which I suspect this person"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":342.199,"endTime":345.99,"body":"is, I would... Then I would go through exactly the same text"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":345.99,"endTime":347.16,"body":"that you described."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":347.16,"endTime":347.519,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":347.519,"endTime":350.399,"body":"I might include the incident from Mark, chapter"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":350.399,"endTime":353.579,"body":"2. That's the first part where Jesus- ... Heals the paralytic-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":353.579,"endTime":353.589,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":353.589,"endTime":355.519,"body":"... And they bring him in through the roof, and-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":355.519,"endTime":355.819,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":355.819,"endTime":357.879,"body":"... You know, the people... Jesus forgives his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":357.879,"endTime":361.1,"body":"sins first, and the crowd's aghast and said-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":361.1,"endTime":361.199,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":361.199,"endTime":363.42,"body":"... \"You know, no one can forgive sins but God"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":363.42,"endTime":367.612,"body":"alone.\"... And then Jesus, they basically is, \"To show that I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":367.612,"endTime":370.711,"body":"have the authority to forgive sins, and by implication, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":370.711,"endTime":374.492,"body":"therefore I am God, I say, 'Pick up your mat and be, and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":374.492,"endTime":375.062,"body":"and walk.'\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":376.291,"endTime":376.541,"body":"so there's-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":376.541,"endTime":377.091,"body":"That's a great example."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":377.091,"endTime":378.262,"body":"I mean, there's... Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":378.771,"endTime":381.012,"body":"the evidence is not hard to find."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":381.012,"endTime":382.911,"body":"Here's where I would go, is the book The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":382.911,"endTime":386.451,"body":"Incarnate Christ and His Critics by Ed Komoszewski and Rob"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":386.451,"endTime":389.031,"body":"Bowman. I interviewed Rob about an hour and a half, and then we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":389.031,"endTime":392.451,"body":"did a live Q\u0026A answering the tough objections. I think that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":392.451,"endTime":396.372,"body":"is the single best book on the deity of Christ that I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":396.372,"endTime":399.552,"body":"every Christian should read, The Incarnate Christ and His"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":399.552,"endTime":403.072,"body":"Critics. Read that, own it, and then you pick the best way to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":403.072,"endTime":405.711,"body":"talk to your friend based on his objections."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":405.711,"endTime":408.132,"body":"I'd say More Than a Carpenter is also pretty good,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":408.132,"endTime":408.192,"body":"too."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":408.192,"endTime":410.091,"body":"Yeah, that's good for starters. I- fair"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":410.091,"endTime":412.632,"body":"enough. All right, so let's shift gears majorly here. This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":412.632,"endTime":415.012,"body":"one's really in your lane. Now, you and I have done full"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":415.012,"endTime":418.372,"body":"episodes on this, but the question is just, should"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":418.372,"endTime":420.872,"body":"Christians vote? And I know Christians should pray for those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":420.872,"endTime":423.932,"body":"in authority, but what biblical principles, it's interesting, it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":423.932,"endTime":426.211,"body":"says, \"compel us to vote?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":427.512,"endTime":430.992,"body":"Well, I think in general, we want to, we want to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":430.992,"endTime":433.391,"body":"render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":433.391,"endTime":434.752,"body":"God's, which means"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":435.471,"endTime":438.771,"body":"you render to the political arena what it's- what it asks of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":438.771,"endTime":442.411,"body":"you, and you render to God what He asks of you. And I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":442.411,"endTime":446.012,"body":"that's fair to say. The political system asks of us for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":446.012,"endTime":446.632,"body":"our vote"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":447.252,"endTime":450.692,"body":"regularly- ... To make, to make our voice heard. Now, obviously,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":450.692,"endTime":452.232,"body":"that wasn't the application"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":452.791,"endTime":455.312,"body":"in the first century because nobody had the right to vote."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":455.312,"endTime":455.341,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":455.341,"endTime":456.072,"body":"Right. [chuckles] Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":456.072,"endTime":458.752,"body":"You know, you did- you didn't vote for Caesar-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":458.752,"endTime":458.901,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":458.901,"endTime":460.081,"body":"... Or vote a- [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":460.081,"endTime":460.232,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":460.232,"endTime":462.271,"body":"Maybe you, maybe you didn't vote against Caesar,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":462.271,"endTime":463.291,"body":"we'll put it that way."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":463.291,"endTime":463.562,"body":"Fa- yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":464.432,"endTime":466.891,"body":"So but I think this is just part of our gen- the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":466.891,"endTime":468.132,"body":"general stewardship"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":468.771,"endTime":471.451,"body":"of our obligations to our communities."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":472.211,"endTime":475.732,"body":"And I think we vote for things that are local, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":475.732,"endTime":480.192,"body":"as a stewardship toward our local and closer communities,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":480.192,"endTime":482.771,"body":"but I think we also vote for national things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":483.512,"endTime":486.552,"body":"So I would, you know, I would, I would not take the stance of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":486.552,"endTime":489.192,"body":"someone who says- ... \"Yeah, I just vote for the big national"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":489.192,"endTime":493.572,"body":"issues. I don't care about the local ones.\" I'm, I'm not so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":493.572,"endTime":495.992,"body":"sure about that theologically- ... Because I think we have an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":495.992,"endTime":497.872,"body":"obligation to love our neighbors."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":498.391,"endTime":498.512,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":498.512,"endTime":500.851,"body":"And I think our vo- our vote is a, an expression of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":500.851,"endTime":504.612,"body":"our love for our neighbors and our ability to have our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":504.612,"endTime":507.012,"body":"voice heard on things that we think are good for our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":507.012,"endTime":509.572,"body":"communities, and good for our country."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":510.112,"endTime":512.99,"body":"And I know we have, we have a lot of division at the moment,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":512.99,"endTime":516.412,"body":"and so what you vote for may be an object of controversy, but I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":516.412,"endTime":519.371,"body":"think whether you vote or not shouldn't be."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":519.912,"endTime":521.412,"body":"By the way, render to Caesar that which is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":521.412,"endTime":524.111,"body":"Caesar and to God that which is God, of course, it's in Matthew"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":524.111,"endTime":524.621,"body":"22."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":525.211,"endTime":529.782,"body":"And the point is not that God doesn't weigh into politics,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":529.782,"endTime":532.581,"body":"'cause the image of Caesar's on the coin."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":532.581,"endTime":532.611,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":532.611,"endTime":535.442,"body":"The image of God is in human beings-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":535.442,"endTime":535.711,"body":"That's correct"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":535.711,"endTime":538.412,"body":"... Everywhere in the political realm, so we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":538.412,"endTime":539.552,"body":"bring our faith"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":540.072,"endTime":544.731,"body":"to our politics. But your point is, we have a sense of duty to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":544.731,"endTime":548.831,"body":"and responsibility to the governing authorities above us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":548.831,"endTime":551.892,"body":"And voting... And again, you know, the word compel is strong."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":551.892,"endTime":554.591,"body":"I think those of us who can vote, we can't forget that it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":554.591,"endTime":557.292,"body":"a privilege that we have this, and there's a lot of people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":557.292,"endTime":560.331,"body":"around the world, probably some people watching or listening to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":560.331,"endTime":561.991,"body":"this, who wish that they could vote-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":561.991,"endTime":562.961,"body":"Oh, they would like very much to vote"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":562.961,"endTime":565.611,"body":"... As we do in the States and beyond."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":565.611,"endTime":565.621,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":565.621,"endTime":567.371,"body":"So I think it's a privilege, but the guiding"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":567.371,"endTime":568.631,"body":"principle is loving God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":569.351,"endTime":572.532,"body":"and loving others in the way that we vote, in the way we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":572.532,"endTime":575.731,"body":"support political candidates, and in policies that don't just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":575.731,"endTime":580.511,"body":"favor us but are objectively good for society, uh-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":580.511,"endTime":582.022,"body":"Yeah, it's the same reason we pay our taxes,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":582.932,"endTime":585.662,"body":"although you don't go to jail for not voting. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":585.662,"endTime":585.692,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":585.692,"endTime":585.851,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":586.392,"endTime":587.621,"body":"but I mean, it's just, it's the same reason."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":587.621,"endTime":588.402,"body":"It's a big difference. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":588.402,"endTime":591.711,"body":"Same re- it's, it's, it's a, it's a statement that we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":591.711,"endTime":594.172,"body":"love our neighbors and care for our communities."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":595.011,"endTime":596.532,"body":"Good word. Of course, there's a passage in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":596.532,"endTime":600.312,"body":"Jeremiah that talks about operating towards the good of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":600.312,"endTime":602.552,"body":"the society in which we live-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":602.552,"endTime":602.802,"body":"Yeah, which-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":602.802,"endTime":603.591,"body":"... And it has some crossover, too."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":603.591,"endTime":605.871,"body":"Yeah, which, by the way, they, that was addressed to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":605.871,"endTime":608.272,"body":"Israel in exile in pagan Babylon-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":608.272,"endTime":609.562,"body":"That's right. That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":609.562,"endTime":611.292,"body":"... To, you know, to seek the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":611.292,"endTime":613.192,"body":"flourishing of their communities."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":613.192,"endTime":614.511,"body":"So it's not a command, but I think it's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":614.511,"endTime":617.192,"body":"principle that applies. Good stuff. All right, this one is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":617.192,"endTime":620.211,"body":"totally in your lane, Scott. Somebody asked us- Could you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":620.211,"endTime":624.071,"body":"speak to the ethics of using CRISPR, which is a kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":624.071,"endTime":628.932,"body":"gene-editing technology, to cure Down syndrome? So maybe explain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":628.932,"endTime":631.731,"body":"just kind of briefly what that is and if you would apply it to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":631.731,"endTime":632.091,"body":"Down syndrome."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":632.091,"endTime":634.692,"body":"Yes. Now, we actually addressed something"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":634.692,"endTime":638.032,"body":"very similar to this in a weekly cultural update a few weeks ago."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":638.032,"endTime":640.182,"body":"I think before... I've got a date on this question, too."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":640.182,"endTime":640.182,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":640.182,"endTime":643.371,"body":"It's before this question came in. But, CRISPR is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":643.371,"endTime":649.032,"body":"a, basically a pair of genetic scissors, that enables in sex"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":649.032,"endTime":652.951,"body":"cells in early-stage embryos to do a sort of a cut-and-paste"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":652.951,"endTime":657.991,"body":"job- ... To eliminate the gene that's defective, in this case,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":657.991,"endTime":661.231,"body":"the gene that causes Down syndrome, and replace it with a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":661.231,"endTime":665.77,"body":"cloned copy of a gene that, when it's inserted, will function"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":665.77,"endTime":666.331,"body":"properly-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":666.932,"endTime":669.572,"body":"... And prevent. And I don't, I'm not sure of the, all the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":669.572,"endTime":672.471,"body":"molecular biology behind Down syndrome, what"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":673.052,"endTime":674.951,"body":"genes are turned on or off, or-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":674.951,"endTime":675.091,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":675.091,"endTime":676.172,"body":"... I'm not sure about that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":677.011,"endTime":681.432,"body":"And what we just recently talked about was a use of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":681.432,"endTime":687.361,"body":"CRISPR with a, basically a molecular GPS- ... To find the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":687.361,"endTime":691.631,"body":"exact place in the genome. This is a very young child, so it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":691.631,"endTime":694.792,"body":"was, it was a little more complicated than embryos in ear-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":694.792,"endTime":698.851,"body":"in sex cells. But they, you know, they found the place in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":698.851,"endTime":699.77,"body":"the genetic code"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":700.292,"endTime":702.831,"body":"that was the glitch that was causing this rare disease this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":702.831,"endTime":706.951,"body":"child has, and they pumped in, you know, millions and millions"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":706.951,"endTime":711.412,"body":"of copies of the corrected gene, so in the hope that it would"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":711.412,"endTime":715.351,"body":"take root, in the place, in the exact place, and all these genes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":715.351,"endTime":718.932,"body":"had a, had the GPS locator on it, so it would get to-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":718.932,"endTime":718.942,"body":"That's amazing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":718.942,"endTime":720.631,"body":"... Get to the... Absolutely staggering"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":720.631,"endTime":721.182,"body":"technology."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":721.182,"endTime":721.871,"body":"That's incredible. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":723.011,"endTime":725.831,"body":"Now, the, probably the... I think the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":725.831,"endTime":729.663,"body":"point of the question, I think, is that-... You know, should we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.663,"endTime":734.703,"body":"be using a gene editing technology to cure disease if it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":734.703,"endTime":738.163,"body":"also has the possibility of being used in some other ways"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":738.163,"endTime":739.604,"body":"that we would not be in favor of?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":740.423,"endTime":742.163,"body":"And I think the answer to that is yes,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":742.803,"endTime":746.673,"body":"we are obligated, I think, to use medical technology as God's-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":746.673,"endTime":750.884,"body":"... Good gift to alleviate or cure the effects of the general"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":750.884,"endTime":755.124,"body":"entrance of sin, of which disease, decay, and dying"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":755.783,"endTime":758.864,"body":"are two of, are three of those. Now, we're not gonna cure dying,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":758.864,"endTime":761.744,"body":"but we can alleviate some of the things that come with the dying"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":761.744,"endTime":762.323,"body":"process"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":763.024,"endTime":763.703,"body":"as a result."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":764.783,"endTime":767.703,"body":"So I think it is possible that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":768.364,"endTime":770.344,"body":"CRISPR technology will be used"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":770.903,"endTime":773.964,"body":"for things that we don't want, like enhancing otherwise normal"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":773.964,"endTime":777.644,"body":"traits or selecting, you know, traits on your child, producing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":777.644,"endTime":779.224,"body":"designer children, selecting for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":779.803,"endTime":783.063,"body":"eye color, hair color, height, things like that. Those-- none"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":783.063,"endTime":786.423,"body":"of those are things that we want to do. But I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":787.144,"endTime":790.433,"body":"we have an obligation to use medical technology in ways that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":790.433,"endTime":791.344,"body":"are consistent"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":792.004,"endTime":796.124,"body":"with the goals of medicine, which are theologically informed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":797.043,"endTime":797.364,"body":"as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":798.183,"endTime":801.384,"body":"correcting, alleviating the effects of the general entrance"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":801.384,"endTime":803.063,"body":"of sin into the world."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":803.823,"endTime":806.063,"body":"That makes a ton of sense, is that God has given"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":806.063,"endTime":809.964,"body":"us common grace to use medical technology, and given us the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":809.964,"endTime":810.964,"body":"call to,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":811.504,"endTime":814.443,"body":"you know, the cultural mandate, you might say, the cultural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":814.443,"endTime":815.104,"body":"commission."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":815.104,"endTime":815.984,"body":"Well, I'd say it could even-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":815.984,"endTime":816.153,"body":"And-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":816.153,"endTime":818.384,"body":"... Even continues the healing ministry of Jesus."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":818.384,"endTime":820.313,"body":"There, there you go. And this, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":821.183,"endTime":824.443,"body":"arguably, it seems something like Down syndrome is the result"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":824.443,"endTime":827.604,"body":"of the Fall. Of course, individuals with Down syndrome"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":827.604,"endTime":830.663,"body":"have no less value and dignity."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":830.663,"endTime":830.793,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":830.793,"endTime":832.344,"body":"And, of course, the efforts in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":832.344,"endTime":836.004,"body":"countries to eliminate them through abortion is not for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":836.004,"endTime":840.644,"body":"them, it's for other people that they're deemed a burden upon. A"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":840.644,"endTime":841.543,"body":"Christian could have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":842.203,"endTime":844.624,"body":"nothing to do with that kind of approach."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":844.624,"endTime":846.403,"body":"Well, and the countries actually are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":846.403,"endTime":849.823,"body":"applauding themselves on hav- on having eliminated Down syndrome."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":849.823,"endTime":851.104,"body":"Countries like Iceland and others have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":851.104,"endTime":851.134,"body":"specifically done that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":851.134,"endTime":852.764,"body":"Yeah, which of course-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":852.764,"endTime":852.844,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":852.844,"endTime":854.663,"body":"... I can eliminate any disease if you'll"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":854.663,"endTime":857.163,"body":"allow me to shoot everybody who has it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":857.163,"endTime":858.063,"body":"[laughing] Shoot them. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":858.063,"endTime":859.783,"body":"[chuckles] That's, that's not rocket science."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":859.783,"endTime":861.703,"body":"That's, that's painful. You know, one just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":861.703,"endTime":864.464,"body":"quick thing on this before we move on, is we do live in an age"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":864.464,"endTime":867.923,"body":"of kinda critical theory, in which we put people in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":867.923,"endTime":871.303,"body":"categories based on their sex, based on their sexual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":871.303,"endTime":874.823,"body":"orientation, based on their skin color, their socioeconomic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":874.823,"endTime":879.403,"body":"status, and whether they have ability, disabilities or not."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":879.403,"endTime":883.644,"body":"And these categories become an essential part of who somebody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":883.644,"endTime":884.043,"body":"is,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":884.663,"endTime":887.923,"body":"and it's wrong to change that, unless, of course, we're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":887.923,"endTime":891.624,"body":"referring to biological sex, but that's an exception [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":891.624,"endTime":891.634,"body":"That's so-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":891.634,"endTime":893.423,"body":"... To the rule. And-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":893.423,"endTime":896.124,"body":"Or if we're referring to disability."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":896.124,"endTime":899.124,"body":"Or, or disability is the except... Oh,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":899.124,"endTime":900.913,"body":"and that, and that's, that's my point, is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":900.913,"endTime":900.953,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":900.953,"endTime":903.803,"body":"... Some would say, \"No, no, this is a part of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":903.803,"endTime":907.244,"body":"who I am,\" and it becomes an identity-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":907.244,"endTime":907.254,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":907.254,"endTime":909.724,"body":"... Rather than saying, \"No, we all have varying"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":909.724,"endTime":914.183,"body":"degrees of disability.\" Sure, some far more significant than"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":914.183,"endTime":915.663,"body":"others, and we had a great episode"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":916.203,"endTime":921.484,"body":"talking about that a while ago. But to try to use medical care"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":921.484,"endTime":925.644,"body":"to care for disability is not dehumanizing, it's arguably"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":925.644,"endTime":928.744,"body":"recognizing the inherent goodness in an individual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":929.283,"endTime":932.183,"body":"and reversing the Fall. So I think that's where cultural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":932.183,"endTime":935.144,"body":"ideas sometimes would come in conflict with a biblical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":935.144,"endTime":936.004,"body":"worldview."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":936.004,"endTime":937.984,"body":"Yeah, now we've, you know, we've, we've got a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":937.984,"endTime":940.943,"body":"emphasis on diversity, except for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":941.543,"endTime":945.524,"body":"disability. That's the one area that's, that I think has been"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":945.524,"endTime":949.604,"body":"bracketed out. It's just, it's, it's not, it's not one of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":949.604,"endTime":950.504,"body":"cool causes-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":951.323,"endTime":952.364,"body":"... That the diversity"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":952.903,"endTime":955.043,"body":"folks have been all that interested in."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":956.323,"endTime":957.644,"body":"Well, we've had a good conversation on that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":957.644,"endTime":960.864,"body":"That's one I think in due time we need to revisit. This one, to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":960.864,"endTime":963.283,"body":"also [chuckles] shift gears again, these are fun, Scott. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":963.283,"endTime":964.773,"body":"actually really like these questions."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":964.773,"endTime":965.423,"body":"These, these are actual... I'm getting a little"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":965.423,"endTime":966.793,"body":"case of whiplash here. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":966.793,"endTime":969.244,"body":"So this one has a little bit more setting up"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":969.244,"endTime":970.543,"body":"involved to get to the question."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":971.423,"endTime":974.004,"body":"It says, \"In our interview with Preston Sprinkle on his book"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":974.004,"endTime":977.364,"body":"Exiles, the point was made that Christians do not find their"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":977.364,"endTime":981.323,"body":"identity in being citizens of a particular country. Sprinkle"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":981.323,"endTime":983.484,"body":"said that we should not refer to the military in the country we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":983.484,"endTime":987.604,"body":"live in as our troops, since God doesn't have troops. Later, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":987.604,"endTime":990.124,"body":"listened to a weekly cultural update,\" and I think this was"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":990.124,"endTime":992.724,"body":"with Jeff Myers, \"where he discussed that around 50% of Gen"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":992.724,"endTime":996.364,"body":"Z-ers are ashamed to call themselves American citizens, as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":996.364,"endTime":998.964,"body":"though they would want to call themselves citizens, but are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":998.964,"endTime":1000.004,"body":"simply ashamed"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1000.543,"endTime":1004.063,"body":"to do so.\" Person says, \"These points seem contradictory, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1004.063,"endTime":1006.884,"body":"I'm trying to understand how Christians should navigate this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1006.884,"endTime":1010.063,"body":"tension. Should we claim to be citizens [chuckles] of our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1010.063,"endTime":1010.563,"body":"country"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1011.283,"endTime":1012.543,"body":"or not?\" What's your take on this?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1012.543,"endTime":1015.104,"body":"Well, I would amend the question slightly."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1015.104,"endTime":1015.214,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1015.214,"endTime":1018.104,"body":"And it's, and it's a simpler answer. I said the point"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1018.104,"endTime":1020.504,"body":"was made that Christians do not find our identity in being"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1020.504,"endTime":1022.504,"body":"citizens of a particular country. I would say"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1023.323,"endTime":1026.064,"body":"the point that should be made is that Christians do not find our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1026.064,"endTime":1029.044,"body":"primary identity in being citizens of a particular"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1029.044,"endTime":1031.982,"body":"country. A, a, as a penultimate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1032.644,"endTime":1035.502,"body":"source of our identity, not the ultimate, but close to it, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1035.502,"endTime":1038.604,"body":"have no problem with saying I'm an American and being proud of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1038.604,"endTime":1040.824,"body":"that. Well, you know, while at the same time recognizing that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1040.824,"endTime":1044.384,"body":"my country's not perfect. And is al... You know, we have,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1044.384,"endTime":1047.364,"body":"we've always had periods in our history where we have not lived"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1047.364,"endTime":1048.644,"body":"up to our ideals."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1049.223,"endTime":1051.884,"body":"And we, and I think there's a, it's sort of a uniquely American"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1051.884,"endTime":1053.263,"body":"tradition to be self-critical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1053.884,"endTime":1057.943,"body":"about that, which I think is a point definitely worth"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1057.943,"endTime":1059.284,"body":"applauding."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1060.104,"endTime":1063.923,"body":"Now, I think, I, you know, I'm not sure about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1063.923,"endTime":1067.844,"body":"our, you know, the our troops, since God doesn't have troops."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1068.403,"endTime":1071.003,"body":"I'm not sure. I don't, I don't have strong feelings about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1071.003,"endTime":1072.743,"body":"that part. But,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1073.644,"endTime":1077.144,"body":"[lips smack] I think you can... You-- the tension is not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1077.144,"endTime":1079.503,"body":"difficult to navigate, in my view, as long as we have our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1079.503,"endTime":1081.223,"body":"loyalties in the proper order."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1081.844,"endTime":1084.584,"body":"We are first and foremost citizens of the kingdom of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1084.584,"endTime":1084.963,"body":"heaven,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1086.423,"endTime":1091.375,"body":"okay? Then we are-... You know, we are human beings made in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1091.375,"endTime":1095.395,"body":"image of God, and redeemed by the blood of, by the blood of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1095.395,"endTime":1096.115,"body":"Christ."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1096.655,"endTime":1097.556,"body":"And then we are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1098.236,"endTime":1100.635,"body":"citizens of our particular country,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1101.195,"endTime":1105.375,"body":"and then, it goes on down from that for our local communities."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1105.375,"endTime":1108.615,"body":"So I don't, I don't think there's a huge"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1109.195,"endTime":1112.895,"body":"contradiction here, as long, as long... But if, but if you're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1112.895,"endTime":1115.675,"body":"saying that our ultimate identity comes from being, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1115.675,"endTime":1118.365,"body":"know, a citizen of our country, then we have a problem."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1118.996,"endTime":1122.935,"body":"But as long as you, kinda, I qualify that as ultimate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1123.655,"endTime":1127.336,"body":"identity, I don't, I don't think we have issues here that we have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1127.336,"endTime":1127.556,"body":"to navigate."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1127.556,"endTime":1130.695,"body":"So we are ultimately citizens of heaven."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1130.695,"endTime":1134.816,"body":"We are new creations. We are part of the family of God. That"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1134.816,"endTime":1139.155,"body":"is our primary identity, and so other things, such as the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1139.155,"endTime":1142.746,"body":"country from which we are from, there's nothing wrong with that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1142.746,"endTime":1145.796,"body":"And I would argue, I think there can be something good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1145.796,"endTime":1149.155,"body":"about loving your country. Now, Christian nationalism, one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1149.155,"endTime":1154.476,"body":"version of it, errs by saying, \"God uniquely favors my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1154.476,"endTime":1158.155,"body":"country,\" or, \"God's promises [chuckles] in the Old Testament"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1158.155,"endTime":1161.355,"body":"uniquely apply to my country.\" You and I have done episodes on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1161.355,"endTime":1161.536,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1162.056,"endTime":1163.556,"body":"and given pause to that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1163.556,"endTime":1163.836,"body":"Although I don't, I don't hear-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1163.836,"endTime":1165.685,"body":"But that's different from-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1165.685,"endTime":1166.355,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1166.355,"endTime":1167.536,"body":"... Patriotism-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1167.536,"endTime":1167.625,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1167.625,"endTime":1169.796,"body":"... Which is a love for one's country, like a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1169.796,"endTime":1171.576,"body":"love for one's home,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1172.135,"endTime":1174.016,"body":"without saying God favors one's home."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1174.016,"endTime":1174.036,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1174.036,"endTime":1175.756,"body":"That's the distinction."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1175.756,"endTime":1178.316,"body":"Yeah. No, that's a great point, and I don't hear"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1178.316,"endTime":1181.135,"body":"too many people who live in other countries"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1182.036,"endTime":1184.375,"body":"referring to their country in the same way that Christian"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1184.375,"endTime":1186.086,"body":"nationalists refer to the United States."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1187.455,"endTime":1190.115,"body":"You know, maybe some of the theocracies,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1190.695,"endTime":1193.415,"body":"but I don't hear, I don't hear people in the UK or- ... Sweden"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1193.415,"endTime":1195.016,"body":"or Norway, you know-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1195.016,"endTime":1195.026,"body":"Could be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1195.026,"endTime":1197.175,"body":"... Or other parts of Europe referring to their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1197.175,"endTime":1203.036,"body":"countries as being theologically the locus of God's activity in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1203.036,"endTime":1204.135,"body":"the world."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1204.135,"endTime":1206.276,"body":"I see a lot of other countries speaking as if"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1206.276,"endTime":1209.715,"body":"they're the center of [laughs] the Earth and the universe,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1210.375,"endTime":1213.435,"body":"similarly to Christians, but maybe don't use the theological"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1213.435,"endTime":1213.846,"body":"language-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1213.846,"endTime":1213.955,"body":"Yeah, that's my, that's my point"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1213.955,"endTime":1216.776,"body":"... 'cause they have different historical roots."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1216.776,"endTime":1220.375,"body":"Here's where I would differ with Sprinkle a little bit, and he's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1220.375,"endTime":1223.756,"body":"not here to defend himself. We had a two-hour debate about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1223.756,"endTime":1225.415,"body":"using preferred pronouns"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1225.976,"endTime":1229.395,"body":"and also gay identity. Should somebody with same-sex"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1229.395,"endTime":1231.655,"body":"attraction identify-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1231.655,"endTime":1231.715,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1231.715,"endTime":1235.935,"body":"... As being gay? His answer is, at least he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1235.935,"endTime":1239.096,"body":"started with where you start, as long as your primary"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1239.096,"endTime":1244.776,"body":"identification is in Christ and God, a secondary kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1244.776,"endTime":1249.796,"body":"identification can be in one's same-sex attraction or gayness."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1249.796,"endTime":1255.875,"body":"So as I understand it, he is fine with that identity but not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1255.875,"endTime":1258.215,"body":"identifying in the way it's framed here"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1258.976,"endTime":1262.715,"body":"as terms of a citizen finding our identity and being citizens"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1262.715,"endTime":1267.215,"body":"of a particular country. Now, I don't remember exactly what we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1267.215,"endTime":1270.355,"body":"said in the interview, so maybe this person has misrepresented"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1270.355,"endTime":1273.026,"body":"his argument, and they could come back. But if they've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1273.026,"endTime":1277.355,"body":"accurately represented it, I would say I'm not in favor of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1277.355,"endTime":1280.355,"body":"gay identity because although it might be more than same-sex"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1280.355,"endTime":1282.556,"body":"attraction, it's no less."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1283.195,"endTime":1287.816,"body":"So if same-sex attraction in itself does not line up with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1287.816,"endTime":1289.776,"body":"God's desire for how we're supposed to live,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1290.576,"endTime":1295.276,"body":"we should have nothing to do with that as any part of our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1295.276,"endTime":1299.395,"body":"identity whatsoever, even if Christ is primary. Being an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1299.395,"endTime":1304.195,"body":"American or being Chinese or being Mexican in itself is not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1304.195,"endTime":1308.265,"body":"tied to something at odds with how God wants us to live,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1308.996,"endTime":1312.256,"body":"even if different governments, or all governments at some time,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1312.256,"endTime":1317.135,"body":"have done certain things that we think are wrong. In principle,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1317.135,"endTime":1321.135,"body":"the American experiment is not at odds and is sinful within"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1321.135,"endTime":1324.855,"body":"itself. That's the distinction that I would make. So again, I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1324.855,"endTime":1327.355,"body":"relying upon this. I don't remember the particulars of what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1327.355,"endTime":1331.635,"body":"he argued in that interview or exiles. If Preston disagrees, he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1331.635,"endTime":1335.076,"body":"can certainly clarify, but if she's represented accurately,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1335.076,"endTime":1336.675,"body":"that's the distinction that I would make."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1336.675,"endTime":1337.915,"body":"Good point."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1337.915,"endTime":1339.435,"body":"All right, let's keep going. This one,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1340.556,"endTime":1342.635,"body":"really interested in your take on this, Scott, because this is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1342.635,"endTime":1346.816,"body":"one I know you've dealt with a lot, consulting in hospitals and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.816,"endTime":1347.464,"body":"churches,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1348.316,"endTime":1352.076,"body":"and the question is related to miscarriage. And this person"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1352.076,"endTime":1355.695,"body":"says, \"I find miscarriage is missing in abortion pro-life"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1355.695,"endTime":1357.976,"body":"discussions,\" and this individual said, \"My wife and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1357.976,"endTime":1361.155,"body":"experienced a miscarriage,\" and by the way, my wife and I did,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1361.155,"endTime":1364.675,"body":"too. They grieved over it and received support and care from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1364.675,"endTime":1367.776,"body":"their church community. \"But should the knowledge that a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1367.776,"endTime":1371.236,"body":"fetus was a, miscarried because of development issues give us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1371.236,"endTime":1373.556,"body":"pause when we think about the status of its soul"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1374.256,"endTime":1378.955,"body":"and existence in heaven? How do we biblically think about the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1378.955,"endTime":1382.096,"body":"unborn who were miscarried?\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1382.096,"endTime":1384.875,"body":"Well, I... My heart goes out to this couple,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1385.455,"endTime":1388.296,"body":"who's experienced a miscarriage. My wife and I, our, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1388.296,"endTime":1391.776,"body":"our first pregnancy was a miscarriage. I mean, it took us"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1391.776,"endTime":1396.895,"body":"probably four years to conceive again, which introduced a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1396.895,"endTime":1398.955,"body":"huge period of pain and-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1398.955,"endTime":1399.266,"body":"It's a long time"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1399.266,"endTime":1401.875,"body":"... Suffering, and it was, it was, it was... I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1401.875,"endTime":1404.536,"body":"say, those were, those were the- those have been the worst four"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1404.536,"endTime":1406.115,"body":"years of my adult life-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1406.115,"endTime":1406.796,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1406.796,"endTime":1409.195,"body":"... Going through that time. I think my wife would"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1409.195,"endTime":1410.256,"body":"probably say the same."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1412.056,"endTime":1416.776,"body":"Now, I think one of the things we need to think about here is,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1417.316,"endTime":1418.826,"body":"yes, the f- the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1419.455,"endTime":1422.096,"body":"embryos and fetuses miscarry for a whole host of reasons,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1422.836,"endTime":1425.776,"body":"okay? Some because they have genetic abnormalities that are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1425.776,"endTime":1430.375,"body":"inconsistent with life, some because there's some biological,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1430.375,"endTime":1431.855,"body":"physical problem with the mother"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1432.635,"endTime":1435.705,"body":"that it, she just can't carry a child to term. Sometimes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1436.296,"endTime":1439.675,"body":"in an ectopic pregnancy, the embryo implants in the fallopian"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1439.675,"endTime":1442.576,"body":"tube and not in the uterus, a condition which is fatal for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1442.576,"endTime":1442.996,"body":"both"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1443.536,"endTime":1448.355,"body":"if it's not immediately corrected. So, the reasons, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1448.355,"endTime":1450.276,"body":"sometime- and in a lot of cases,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1450.836,"endTime":1453.675,"body":"nobody knows what the reason for the miscarriage is."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1454.215,"endTime":1457.433,"body":"They we're just speculating. Now-..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1458.042,"endTime":1460.223,"body":"The point, well, the point that comes out of the question,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1460.223,"endTime":1462.663,"body":"I'm not sure you read actually this part, but,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1463.623,"endTime":1466.383,"body":"is he said, \"I read that early miscarriage are the result of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1466.383,"endTime":1468.723,"body":"the fetus not developing properly, and the sanctity of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1468.723,"endTime":1472.403,"body":"life argument seems to be based on the potential of a fetus's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1472.403,"endTime":1476.203,"body":"full development and ability to survive outside the womb.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1476.203,"endTime":1478.463,"body":"Sanctity of life argument is based on neither of those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1478.463,"endTime":1479.303,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1479.303,"endTime":1479.763,"body":"Be clear for people."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1479.763,"endTime":1484.063,"body":"Those are, those are outworkings of a, of a prior"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1484.063,"endTime":1485.603,"body":"ontological condition"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1486.263,"endTime":1489.542,"body":"that gives the f- the unborn child the sanctity of life from"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1489.542,"endTime":1493.063,"body":"conception forward. At that point, it's true"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1493.703,"endTime":1496.553,"body":"that... I put it, although I put it a little differently."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1496.553,"endTime":1499.183,"body":"It's true that the unborn child has all the capacities"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1499.743,"endTime":1501.523,"body":"that he or she needs to mature"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1502.144,"endTime":1506.292,"body":"into a full-grown adult. I would not use the term development,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1506.292,"endTime":1508.282,"body":"'cause this is not metamorphosis. You know, we're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1508.282,"endTime":1509.123,"body":"not talking about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1510.203,"endTime":1512.463,"body":"embryos becoming something different"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1513.023,"endTime":1515.542,"body":"at the fetal stage or becoming something different at the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1515.542,"endTime":1518.523,"body":"newborn or toddler stage. No, there's a continuity of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1518.523,"endTime":1522.243,"body":"personal identity through time and change because we are not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1522.243,"endTime":1525.123,"body":"just the physical stuff of which we are made. We have an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1525.123,"endTime":1527.103,"body":"immaterial component as well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1527.823,"endTime":1531.103,"body":"So, and the ability to survive outside the womb is more a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1531.103,"endTime":1533.863,"body":"commentary on medical technology than it is on anything"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1533.863,"endTime":1538.083,"body":"ontological with the, with the unborn child. So I would, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1538.083,"endTime":1543.503,"body":"guess I would have a big issue with the way that this person,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1543.503,"endTime":1546.542,"body":"who I, you know, I sympathize with for miscarriage, but I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1546.542,"endTime":1549.282,"body":"think the way they are conceiving the argument for the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1549.282,"endTime":1552.663,"body":"sanctity of life, I think is not, is not quite right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1552.663,"endTime":1554.763,"body":"That was really helpful. So maybe this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1554.763,"endTime":1557.623,"body":"illustration would help. If we... And maybe it's a morbid"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1557.623,"endTime":1560.743,"body":"illustration, if we had, like, a three-year-old that was alone on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1560.743,"endTime":1565.083,"body":"a small island, parents left, parents died, whatever, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1565.083,"endTime":1566.933,"body":"three-year-old has the capacity"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1567.623,"endTime":1572.103,"body":"to become an adult in the way a fish or sand or a tree doesn't."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1572.103,"endTime":1576.263,"body":"It has the potential, but if no one comes and rescues it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1576.263,"endTime":1579.603,"body":"doesn't have the practical potential-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1579.603,"endTime":1579.613,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1579.613,"endTime":1580.503,"body":"... To do so."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1580.503,"endTime":1582.663,"body":"But we say those capacities will actualize"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1582.663,"endTime":1585.363,"body":"themself under the right condition, under conditions-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1585.363,"endTime":1585.542,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1585.542,"endTime":1586.983,"body":"... That are conducive for that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1586.983,"endTime":1589.663,"body":"So it's the kind of thing that it is, being a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1589.663,"endTime":1593.884,"body":"three-year-old, that naturally has the capacity to develop"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1593.884,"endTime":1597.963,"body":"under the right conditions. The unborn, there might be problems"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1597.963,"endTime":1601.983,"body":"in the womb of a particular woman that's not allowing it to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1601.983,"endTime":1607.443,"body":"develop, but it still is the kind of thing that can develop"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1607.443,"endTime":1611.103,"body":"if those corrections are made, akin to the three-year-old. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1611.103,"endTime":1614.592,"body":"we'd say there's nothing substantial in the kind of thing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1614.592,"endTime":1618.183,"body":"the unborn is and a three-year-old is, just a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1618.183,"endTime":1619.583,"body":"different environment."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1620.223,"endTime":1623.042,"body":"So if that's the case, then from... And we'd have to argue"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1623.042,"endTime":1625.143,"body":"this, I think the Bible does, but from the moment of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1625.143,"endTime":1626.863,"body":"conception, you have a distinct"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1627.823,"endTime":1628.503,"body":"living"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1629.363,"endTime":1633.483,"body":"human being, that for some reason, maybe it's sin, maybe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1633.483,"endTime":1635.782,"body":"it's just something that happened, maybe it's natural, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1635.782,"endTime":1636.623,"body":"have no idea-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1636.623,"endTime":1638.103,"body":"Or we- sometimes we don't even know"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1638.103,"endTime":1639.103,"body":"... This child, and like you said, sometimes we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1639.103,"endTime":1639.683,"body":"don't know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1640.403,"endTime":1644.243,"body":"dies, inherently there's no difference than a one-year-old"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1644.243,"endTime":1648.384,"body":"or a two-year-old or a five-year-old. How, you know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1648.384,"endTime":1651.263,"body":"and we could talk about the age of accountability, which we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1651.263,"endTime":1654.343,"body":"don't have to go into in detail, but I would tend to believe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1654.343,"endTime":1655.443,"body":"that God's grace"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1656.063,"endTime":1659.263,"body":"would cover this child 'cause it's not accountable. But in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1659.263,"endTime":1663.623,"body":"some ways, we can just rest in the goodness of God and who He"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1663.623,"endTime":1667.763,"body":"is, that He will do what's in the best interest of this child,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1667.763,"endTime":1671.023,"body":"and that's what it is, who died through a miscarriage."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1671.023,"endTime":1671.983,"body":"One other point on this, too."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1671.983,"endTime":1672.103,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1672.103,"endTime":1675.042,"body":"The, the last part of the question, I think, again,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1675.042,"endTime":1676.703,"body":"I think it reveals something about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1677.243,"endTime":1678.933,"body":"the worldview of this person."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1678.933,"endTime":1679.703,"body":"The assumptions."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1680.433,"endTime":1682.282,"body":"What should we, what should we think about children"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1682.282,"endTime":1684.803,"body":"who did not have the potential of full development and were"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1684.803,"endTime":1686.343,"body":"miscarried?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1687.163,"endTime":1689.923,"body":"Now, this, every"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1690.603,"endTime":1691.123,"body":"embryo"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1691.782,"endTime":1692.363,"body":"and fetus"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1692.983,"endTime":1695.403,"body":"has the potential for full development,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1696.263,"endTime":1697.763,"body":"okay? Now, they may have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1698.463,"endTime":1700.183,"body":"genetic abnormalities that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1700.884,"endTime":1703.463,"body":"you know, that w- don't allow those capacities to be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1703.463,"endTime":1706.083,"body":"actualized, and maybe something in the way the mother's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1706.083,"endTime":1706.963,"body":"carrying the child"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1707.663,"endTime":1710.542,"body":"that won't allow those to be actualized. But they have all"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1710.542,"endTime":1714.923,"body":"the capacities that they need to mature into a full-grown adult"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1715.503,"endTime":1719.282,"body":"from conception forward, as long as con- the conditions for their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1719.282,"endTime":1719.843,"body":"flourishing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1720.384,"endTime":1723.542,"body":"are met- ... Which are pretty simple and straightforward- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1723.542,"endTime":1724.163,"body":"Actually."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1724.163,"endTime":1727.023,"body":"So really, this distinction is irrelevant to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1727.023,"endTime":1730.542,"body":"status of the unborn and the fate of the unborn because of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1730.542,"endTime":1732.623,"body":"the kind of thing that it is-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1732.623,"endTime":1733.103,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1733.103,"endTime":1735.763,"body":"... And the capacities it has. Okay, great"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1735.763,"endTime":1738.403,"body":"distinctions. [chuckles] That was really helpful. All right,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1738.403,"endTime":1741.143,"body":"this one, we're gonna shift again, Scott, and you've written"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1741.143,"endTime":1742.833,"body":"some books on business ethics."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1742.833,"endTime":1744.384,"body":"How come these are all in my lane here, man?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1744.384,"endTime":1744.443,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1744.443,"endTime":1745.483,"body":"I don't know if they're all in your lane."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1745.483,"endTime":1746.183,"body":"Not quite."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1746.183,"endTime":1748.463,"body":"You maybe got the weight of some of these. I'd"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1748.463,"endTime":1749.253,"body":"have to do some math here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1749.253,"endTime":1750.923,"body":"You, you get, you get the rest of them here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1750.923,"endTime":1751.663,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1751.663,"endTime":1752.723,"body":"I think you're right. You probably did get more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1752.723,"endTime":1755.263,"body":"than half. That's fair. But I'll weigh in and give you my two"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1755.263,"endTime":1759.542,"body":"cents. This person says- How might viewing work as mission,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1759.542,"endTime":1763.683,"body":"being, to use a dated term, thinking biblically about work"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1763.683,"endTime":1765.703,"body":"as a mission field, some would say missional,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1766.463,"endTime":1769.903,"body":"ultimately dovetail with David Bonsin's, what he expressed when"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1769.903,"endTime":1772.623,"body":"we talked about his book Full-Time? So we interviewed him"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1772.623,"endTime":1775.343,"body":"a number of weeks ago, and he expressed a certain approach to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1775.343,"endTime":1780.403,"body":"this. Bottom line, how should we think about work as mission?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1780.403,"endTime":1784.042,"body":"Well, here, in a word, I would say the business"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1784.042,"endTime":1788.123,"body":"or the workplace as mission is accurate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1788.683,"endTime":1790.223,"body":"but incomplete."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1791.103,"endTime":1792.563,"body":"It's one component"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1793.223,"endTime":1798.123,"body":"of how to view your work within a biblical framework. It is, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1798.123,"endTime":1801.823,"body":"the reason for that is because, you know, when most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1801.823,"endTime":1805.083,"body":"people, when they go to work, they're gonna work in places,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1805.083,"endTime":1807.623,"body":"unless they're at a place like Biola, they're gonna work in a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1807.623,"endTime":1809.583,"body":"place where they're... Where being a Christian puts them in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1809.583,"endTime":1811.103,"body":"the minority in their company-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1811.823,"endTime":1816.884,"body":"... For the most part. And it may be that, the people that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1816.884,"endTime":1820.407,"body":"that these, that these people work with-... You m- you may be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1820.407,"endTime":1823.887,"body":"the only time that they ever have meaningful contact with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1823.887,"endTime":1827.407,"body":"anybody who's a follower of Jesus. And the mo- in fact, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1827.407,"endTime":1830.548,"body":"think most of the folks that we work with are probably not gonna"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1830.548,"endTime":1833.228,"body":"darken the doors of our church unless they were already,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1833.228,"endTime":1834.347,"body":"they're already believers."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1835.248,"endTime":1839.167,"body":"And so I w- I wouldn't wanna minimize the place of,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1839.718,"endTime":1842.407,"body":"the workplace being what I, what I would call a strategic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1842.407,"endTime":1844.347,"body":"soapbox for the gospel."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.347,"endTime":1845.147,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1845.147,"endTime":1845.958,"body":"And more, and I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1846.827,"endTime":1850.488,"body":"i- also in the way that you just, you live out your faith"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1850.488,"endTime":1852.428,"body":"consistently in the workplace."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1853.048,"endTime":1856.028,"body":"And so living it out, I mean, you need words to explain"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1856.647,"endTime":1858.698,"body":"the reasons why you do things the way you do,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1859.347,"endTime":1863.127,"body":"but the, that combination of living out your faith and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1863.688,"endTime":1867.288,"body":"and verbally sharing the gospel with people is part of what is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1867.288,"endTime":1871.367,"body":"involved in the- ... Business's mission. Now, the idea"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1871.367,"endTime":1873.327,"body":"of the workplace's mission also"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1874.208,"endTime":1876.327,"body":"is used as a strategy used overseas"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1877.048,"endTime":1879.008,"body":"to get people into closed countries-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1879.008,"endTime":1879.018,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1879.018,"endTime":1880.327,"body":"... For the gospel when missionaries-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1880.327,"endTime":1880.337,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1880.337,"endTime":1881.067,"body":"... Will, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1881.988,"endTime":1885.508,"body":"don't, don't bother. But if you can come into a place, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1885.508,"endTime":1890.167,"body":"say, in the Middle East or other places, and start a business-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1890.167,"endTime":1893.387,"body":"... And contribute to your community, you may also have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1893.387,"endTime":1896.948,"body":"other great opportunities to present the gospel. So I would"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1896.948,"endTime":1899.038,"body":"say the other thing that we need to recognize here"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1899.728,"endTime":1900.107,"body":"is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1901.827,"endTime":1903.827,"body":"often the business as mission"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1904.688,"endTime":1908.008,"body":"folks will minimize the actual work that's done and how that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1908.008,"endTime":1910.887,"body":"contributes to the community that you're in. And I don't..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1910.887,"endTime":1914.387,"body":"The Bible doesn't allow us to do that. 'Cause in Colossians"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1914.387,"endTime":1915.948,"body":"3, Paul is speaking to household"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1917.458,"endTime":1917.458,"body":"Servants"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1917.458,"endTime":1919.557,"body":"... Where he says, \"In whatever you do your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1919.557,"endTime":1922.988,"body":"work heartily as unto the Lord.\" \"For, parenthesis, in whatever"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1922.988,"endTime":1926.607,"body":"you do,\" here's the punchline, \"it's the Lord Christ whom you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1926.607,"endTime":1930.847,"body":"are serving.\" Which mean, if that's true, what that means is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1930.847,"endTime":1934.508,"body":"that you, the work that you do is part, not all of it, but part"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1934.508,"endTime":1935.807,"body":"of your service to Christ-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1936.488,"endTime":1941.968,"body":"... Is kingdom work and has eternal significance. And I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1941.968,"endTime":1945.508,"body":"think that to view our work in that way is, I think, a much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1945.508,"endTime":1949.968,"body":"more full-orbed way of seeing it, though what this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1949.968,"endTime":1952.867,"body":"listener points out, I think, is right. It's just not the whole"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1952.867,"endTime":1954.248,"body":"story."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1954.248,"endTime":1957.228,"body":"That's a great answer, that we are to view our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1957.228,"endTime":1960.367,"body":"work as a mission field, but it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1960.887,"endTime":1964.827,"body":"more than that. It's glorifying God, doing our work unto the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1964.827,"endTime":1966.968,"body":"Lord. It's caring for our neighbors. It's just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1966.968,"endTime":1971.198,"body":"contributing to something using the gifts that we have. So it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1971.788,"endTime":1974.627,"body":"all Christians should see themselves as missionaries, in a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1974.627,"endTime":1978.627,"body":"sense, wherever they are, but our work is more than just a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1978.627,"endTime":1981.768,"body":"tool to reach people with the gospel. We're contributing to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1981.768,"endTime":1985.048,"body":"the cultural commission and doing good and loving our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1985.048,"endTime":1986.508,"body":"neighbors amidst that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1987.228,"endTime":1989.887,"body":"Yeah, and I think if you don't do your work well,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1989.887,"endTime":1990.468,"body":"chances are-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1990.468,"endTime":1990.577,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1990.577,"endTime":1993.127,"body":"... You're not gonna have an audience for the gospel."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1993.127,"endTime":1993.508,"body":"Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1994.067,"endTime":1994.647,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1994.647,"endTime":1996.448,"body":"Which, you know, we don't... So we don't wanna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1996.448,"endTime":2001.327,"body":"turn work into just a utility that has the ends of-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2001.327,"endTime":2001.488,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2001.488,"endTime":2003.307,"body":"... Accomplishing the gospel. The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2003.307,"endTime":2005.938,"body":"work has a good within itself."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2005.938,"endTime":2007.067,"body":"Well, yeah, it has intrin-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2007.067,"endTime":2007.077,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2007.077,"endTime":2009.988,"body":"... It has intrinsic value because God ordained work"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2009.988,"endTime":2011.508,"body":"before the entrance of sin"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2012.127,"endTime":2015.867,"body":"into the world. And remember, in Genesis 3, God cursed the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2015.867,"endTime":2020.407,"body":"ground, which is different than saying that God cursed work."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2020.407,"endTime":2023.688,"body":"Work maintained its nobility, even though the setting in which"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2023.688,"endTime":2026.887,"body":"it take- took place had been tainted by sin."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2027.647,"endTime":2029.428,"body":"Good stuff. That's a great answer. That was,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2029.428,"endTime":2032.038,"body":"that was really helpful. All right, so I'll give my two cents"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2032.038,"endTime":2035.327,"body":"to this one first, although I... It might be to both of us. This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2035.327,"endTime":2037.788,"body":"person says, \"I have two questions,\" and just for the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2037.788,"endTime":2041.127,"body":"record, they listed three, but you know, I digress."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2041.127,"endTime":2041.137,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2041.137,"endTime":2042.768,"body":"\"I have a few questions about art and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2042.768,"endTime":2043.347,"body":"entertainment.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2043.347,"endTime":2043.817,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2043.817,"endTime":2045.867,"body":"\"Given the potential tension of Philippians"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2045.867,"endTime":2049.068,"body":"4-8 to think about what is true and noble and lovely and pure,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2049.068,"endTime":2049.588,"body":"et cetera,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2050.148,"endTime":2052.547,"body":"and the reality of living in a fallen world,\" which is a great"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2052.547,"endTime":2054.907,"body":"point. \"The questions are, where's the line between"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2054.907,"endTime":2057.487,"body":"understanding empathy with darkness and pain in the world,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2057.487,"endTime":2061.847,"body":"and appreciation of art that turns our attention towards God?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2061.847,"endTime":2063.827,"body":"The second one is, should Christians be entertained by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2063.827,"endTime":2067.108,"body":"manifestation of sin? Should Christians spend time watching"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2067.108,"endTime":2071.288,"body":"horror movies? If watching such films or other manifestations of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2071.288,"endTime":2074.827,"body":"sin is acceptable or possibly useful, how do we set such"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2074.827,"endTime":2077.947,"body":"boundaries and limits?\" Now, actually, it's one, two, three,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2077.947,"endTime":2079.588,"body":"four, five questions, but I get the point."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2079.588,"endTime":2080.047,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2080.806,"endTime":2085.568,"body":"Here's my basic take. In both of these A and B,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2085.568,"endTime":2089.987,"body":"the person's looking for a line and looking for boundaries and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2089.987,"endTime":2090.568,"body":"limits."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2091.648,"endTime":2095.027,"body":"I don't think there's always a line, and I don't think there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2095.027,"endTime":2096.708,"body":"always a boundary and a limit."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2097.588,"endTime":2100.527,"body":"Why? The Bible said... First off, the Bible would never say"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2100.527,"endTime":2104.307,"body":"you could see up to, say, PG-13 movies, because that was not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2104.307,"endTime":2107.788,"body":"such a rating then. But even then, even all PG-13 movies"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2107.788,"endTime":2108.737,"body":"aren't equal."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2109.507,"endTime":2111.628,"body":"Right? I've seen PG-13 movies, and I'm like, \"Oh, that's PG.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2111.628,"endTime":2113.947,"body":"I've seen others, I'm like, \"That really could be R. I don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2113.947,"endTime":2116.827,"body":"know how it got this rating.\" So the Bible doesn't give us a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2116.827,"endTime":2120.047,"body":"line. Why? Well, because people have different levels of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2120.047,"endTime":2124.807,"body":"maturity. People have different levels of experience. People"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2124.807,"endTime":2127.668,"body":"might have different trauma and pain in their life that are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2127.668,"endTime":2129.498,"body":"triggered by different things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2130.128,"endTime":2133.688,"body":"So should we watch horror movies? I'm not gonna make a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2133.688,"endTime":2136.507,"body":"blanket statement. In some ways, it depends upon [chuckles] the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2136.507,"endTime":2140.867,"body":"horror movies. Not all are the same. But my friend Brian Godawa"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2140.867,"endTime":2144.168,"body":"said, \"There's actually, in horror movies, there's often a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2144.168,"endTime":2148.427,"body":"recognition that there's good and bad and there's right and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2148.427,"endTime":2151.597,"body":"wrong,\" and it pushes back against this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2152.148,"endTime":2154.708,"body":"relativistic notion within our culture,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2155.327,"endTime":2160.217,"body":"and sometimes reminds us that evil is real and exists. That"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2160.217,"endTime":2163.807,"body":"doesn't mean everyone should watch a horror movie, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2163.807,"endTime":2167.788,"body":"less... You know, I'm more reluctant to make a blanket"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2167.788,"endTime":2171.867,"body":"statement that it's always wrong to do so. I just,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2172.518,"endTime":2175.588,"body":"I wanna push back on the idea of boundaries and limits, and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2175.588,"endTime":2176.847,"body":"think the Bible gives us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2177.367,"endTime":2178.228,"body":"principles. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2178.907,"endTime":2182.94,"body":"if a movie-... Is really encouraging you to think about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2182.94,"endTime":2185.42,"body":"things that are not good, that are not true, that are not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2185.42,"endTime":2185.84,"body":"lovely."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2186.36,"endTime":2191.039,"body":"That should give you pause to stop. Now, thinking about things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2191.039,"endTime":2191.9,"body":"that are evil"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2192.559,"endTime":2193.36,"body":"and broken"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2193.96,"endTime":2197.26,"body":"is not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, I read Judges. I don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2197.26,"endTime":2200.119,"body":"walk away thinking about things, to quote this, like, \"Oh, it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2200.8,"endTime":2204.139,"body":"lovely, and noble, and pure. I'm kind of broken, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2204.139,"endTime":2209.019,"body":"disgusted.\" Now, we should be broken and disgusted by the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2209.019,"endTime":2212.92,"body":"kinds of things in the Book of Judges, because the root of that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2212.92,"endTime":2215.519,"body":"book is that when everyone does that which is right in their own"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2215.519,"endTime":2218.26,"body":"eyes, it leads to this egregious sin"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2218.96,"endTime":2223.36,"body":"and brokenness. So we're gonna have to live in that tension."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2223.36,"endTime":2226.619,"body":"That's what it means. We can err one way or the other. Could be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2226.619,"endTime":2229.46,"body":"our experience that does it, could be our community that does"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2229.46,"endTime":2232.139,"body":"it, but I think we're gonna have to live in that tension. And the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2232.139,"endTime":2234.78,"body":"last thing I'll say at this first point is always"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2234.78,"endTime":2239.96,"body":"remembering that we are the easiest one to deceive. We can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2239.96,"endTime":2242.719,"body":"fool ourselves, and I speak more for myself than anybody else,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2242.719,"endTime":2246.84,"body":"\"Oh, I can watch this, not a big deal,\" 'cause we wanna justify"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2246.84,"endTime":2251.039,"body":"things. That's where we've gotta be really honest with our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2251.039,"endTime":2255.0,"body":"motivations, how these movies are affecting us, and then"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2255.0,"endTime":2258.659,"body":"before the Lord, just have wisdom. Agree, disagree? What"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2258.659,"endTime":2259.38,"body":"would you add?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2259.38,"endTime":2262.559,"body":"No, basically agree. And one thing I would like"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2262.559,"endTime":2265.75,"body":"to clarify, I wish we had this listener in the studio with us-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2265.75,"endTime":2267.519,"body":"... I could ask, but,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2268.8,"endTime":2270.429,"body":"he's... The person talks about,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2271.579,"endTime":2274.579,"body":"you know, the appreciation and production of art that turns our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2274.579,"endTime":2279.28,"body":"attention toward God. I'd like to know what the person means by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2279.28,"endTime":2282.9,"body":"that- ... Because the horror movies you described, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2282.9,"endTime":2285.0,"body":"have the ability to turn our attention to God."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2285.0,"endTime":2285.539,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2285.539,"endTime":2286.119,"body":"Because there's-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2286.119,"endTime":2286.4,"body":"Arguably"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2286.4,"endTime":2288.5,"body":"... Because it reveals an, you know, a standard"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2288.5,"endTime":2291.139,"body":"of right and wrong. You know, there's, there's clear"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2291.139,"endTime":2293.699,"body":"distinctions between good and evil, which implies that there's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2293.699,"endTime":2297.71,"body":"clearly a lawgiver who decides what is good and what's evil."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2299.039,"endTime":2302.28,"body":"So I think the, you know, the things that turn our attention"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2302.28,"endTime":2307.019,"body":"to God don't always have to be explicit. And I think sometimes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2307.019,"endTime":2308.46,"body":"what makes good art"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2309.538,"endTime":2313.9,"body":"so good is that, you know, you have to dig a little bit to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2313.9,"endTime":2317.84,"body":"catch the artist's intent. And there are movies"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2317.84,"endTime":2321.599,"body":"that I think can portray really good moral points without being"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2321.599,"endTime":2323.199,"body":"preachy or without being cheesy."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2324.36,"endTime":2327.32,"body":"And I think some of the, you know, some of the, some of the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2327.32,"endTime":2330.09,"body":"some of the best films out there are the ones that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2330.619,"endTime":2333.84,"body":"have, that exemplify really good virtues."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2334.44,"endTime":2339.28,"body":"But they often do so in contrast to really terrible vices."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2340.179,"endTime":2343.92,"body":"And so I'm not sure how you can have a full appreciation for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2343.92,"endTime":2347.268,"body":"one without also recognizing the reality of the other."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2347.9,"endTime":2350.619,"body":"And I, you know, I've had... My, my oldest son is in the film"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2350.619,"endTime":2351.239,"body":"industry."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2351.92,"endTime":2354.36,"body":"And we've had a lot of conversation about-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2354.36,"endTime":2355.349,"body":"I know you have, [chuckles] yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2355.349,"endTime":2355.92,"body":"... About"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2356.46,"endTime":2361.0,"body":"what to include in films, what's gratuitous, versus what's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2361.0,"endTime":2363.039,"body":"portrayal just of reality."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2363.579,"endTime":2368.34,"body":"And, you know, filmmakers don't hide from the darkness and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2368.34,"endTime":2371.659,"body":"the reality of living in a fallen world, nor should they."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2371.659,"endTime":2374.76,"body":"Now, they don't... I would hope they don't glorify it, or they"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2374.76,"endTime":2377.619,"body":"don't- it's not gratuitous, and I think there... We can all"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2377.619,"endTime":2381.44,"body":"think of films where both of those things occur. But I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2381.44,"endTime":2382.26,"body":"just because"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2383.219,"endTime":2388.079,"body":"something is dark, and something is painful, and it's ex- it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2388.079,"endTime":2390.599,"body":"expressed in film because it's the reality of somebody's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2390.599,"endTime":2393.039,"body":"experience, even if it's heightened a bit, which films"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2393.039,"endTime":2393.719,"body":"normally do,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2394.679,"endTime":2397.239,"body":"I don't think that puts it out of bounds at all. Because that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2397.239,"endTime":2401.36,"body":"just forms the black background in which, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2401.36,"endTime":2404.98,"body":"diamond of the virtues or whatever the point of the story"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2404.98,"endTime":2405.139,"body":"is,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2405.719,"endTime":2409.219,"body":"can come out. Now- ... If there's, you know, I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2409.219,"endTime":2412.76,"body":"think that, you know, a lot of our films have, good redeeming"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2412.76,"endTime":2415.119,"body":"value to them. There are some that don't."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2415.119,"endTime":2415.519,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2416.199,"endTime":2418.46,"body":"And so you... But you have to use discernment"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2419.139,"endTime":2419.599,"body":"about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2420.139,"endTime":2423.3,"body":"how much of the reality of life in a fallen world that you can"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2423.3,"endTime":2424.92,"body":"handle being exposed to."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2425.519,"endTime":2429.099,"body":"I've got a friend who's in the early stages of dementia."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2429.679,"endTime":2433.679,"body":"And, you know, this person can't, they can't li- they can't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2433.679,"endTime":2436.539,"body":"watch anything that has profanity in it-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2437.26,"endTime":2439.278,"body":"... Because as part of the dementia,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2439.98,"endTime":2441.48,"body":"that's what they remember."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2441.48,"endTime":2441.8,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2441.8,"endTime":2444.159,"body":"And it, and it, and it, and it stores in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2444.159,"endTime":2445.4,"body":"their memory, and it comes-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2445.4,"endTime":2445.409,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2445.409,"endTime":2447.34,"body":"... And it, and it comes out, it will come out more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2447.34,"endTime":2451.8,"body":"readily as their memory goes. So that's, that's a no-brainer."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2451.8,"endTime":2452.3,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2452.3,"endTime":2452.429,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2452.96,"endTime":2457.278,"body":"I think we probably shouldn't... We probably should be careful"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2457.278,"endTime":2460.679,"body":"just to take, just take stock of how some of this stuff affects"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2460.679,"endTime":2461.25,"body":"our souls."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2462.76,"endTime":2465.278,"body":"You know, there are certain things I don't really care"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2465.278,"endTime":2467.86,"body":"to watch- ... Because I know it's not good for my soul."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2468.38,"endTime":2470.84,"body":"Other things I think are fine."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2471.539,"endTime":2474.46,"body":"But I think you're right. I don't, I don't see strict"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2474.46,"endTime":2475.539,"body":"boundaries or limits."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2477.0,"endTime":2479.46,"body":"I think, but the Bible calls us to use good discernment."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2479.46,"endTime":2481.5,"body":"And good wisdom. There's multiple books in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2481.5,"endTime":2484.9,"body":"Bible about good wisdom. By the way, you and I interviewed Tom"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2484.9,"endTime":2486.679,"body":"Halleen, who's our wonderful"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2487.199,"endTime":2490.32,"body":"head of our film and theater program here. Folks can go back"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2490.32,"endTime":2490.9,"body":"to... It's on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2491.539,"endTime":2496.079,"body":"the podcast, also on my YouTube channel, where we untie some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2496.079,"endTime":2499.34,"body":"of this. All right, got three more for you, if we can squeeze"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2499.34,"endTime":2504.48,"body":"these in. This is a theological question now, and also somewhat"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2504.48,"endTime":2508.099,"body":"apologetic. It says- \"Regarding God's sovereignty, does God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2508.099,"endTime":2512.219,"body":"control everything that happens in our lives, no matter whether"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2512.219,"endTime":2512.88,"body":"it's good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2513.719,"endTime":2518.519,"body":"or bad? If I get sick and die, can I say that God killed me, or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2518.519,"endTime":2521.0,"body":"does God [chuckles] only do good things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2521.92,"endTime":2524.48,"body":"to us?\" Now, this is a huge question, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2524.48,"endTime":2524.619,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2524.619,"endTime":2526.34,"body":"But maybe just, maybe kind of just some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2526.34,"endTime":2527.63,"body":"principles or guidelines-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2527.63,"endTime":2527.739,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2527.739,"endTime":2529.5,"body":"... Of how you'd approach a question like this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2529.5,"endTime":2532.179,"body":"Here's... I would, I would amend the question again"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2532.179,"endTime":2532.449,"body":"to m-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2532.449,"endTime":2532.449,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2532.449,"endTime":2534.86,"body":"... And we can make the answer clearer. I'd say,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2534.86,"endTime":2538.639,"body":"regarding God's sovereignty, does God ordain everything that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2538.639,"endTime":2542.623,"body":"happens in our lives, no matter whether it's good or bad?..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2542.623,"endTime":2545.083,"body":"That's an easy question, 'cause the answer to that is no,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2545.083,"endTime":2549.184,"body":"because God does not ordain evil. God's not the author of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2549.184,"endTime":2549.463,"body":"evil."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2550.443,"endTime":2554.244,"body":"And if I get sick and then die, can I say, \"God killed me?\" No."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2554.244,"endTime":2554.864,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2554.864,"endTime":2557.704,"body":"You can say that God allowed you to die from that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2557.704,"endTime":2559.853,"body":"disease for wh- for reasons that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2560.764,"endTime":2565.324,"body":"we'll, we'll know more fully when we get to glory. And God,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2565.324,"endTime":2570.324,"body":"you know, God does not, God does not cause evil. That's, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2570.324,"endTime":2573.003,"body":"the big takeaway from this. So,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2573.923,"endTime":2577.403,"body":"I d- I don't believe God causes, say, genetic abnormalities-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2577.403,"endTime":2577.664,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2577.664,"endTime":2579.804,"body":"... For His glory. I don't think, I think God doesn't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2579.804,"endTime":2583.523,"body":"cause, God didn't cause Chris Ralston to be exposed to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2583.523,"endTime":2586.943,"body":"measles- ... In his mother's womb- ... And give him all sorts"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2586.943,"endTime":2589.963,"body":"of disabilities that he has. So."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2589.963,"endTime":2592.423,"body":"That'd be your response. So I think with this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2592.423,"endTime":2593.943,"body":"qualification, I think you'd agree with me."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2594.503,"endTime":2597.304,"body":"You'd say, \"If somebody dies, can they say, 'God killed me?'\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2597.304,"endTime":2600.364,"body":"Well, there are times where God has killed"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2600.963,"endTime":2603.063,"body":"and has judged through sicknesses-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2603.063,"endTime":2603.204,"body":"True"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2603.204,"endTime":2605.523,"body":"... Probably with Herod in the Book of Acts,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2605.523,"endTime":2608.844,"body":"through plagues in the Old Testament. So there are times"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2608.844,"endTime":2609.083,"body":"which"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2609.784,"endTime":2614.684,"body":"seem to be the exception of God's judgment, not the norm,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2614.684,"endTime":2617.704,"body":"and it seems to be in most those conversations, God makes it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2617.704,"endTime":2620.744,"body":"clear what He's doing, so we should be hesitant to say, \"Yep,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2620.744,"endTime":2624.824,"body":"God killed you.\" But the f- it also says, \"Or does God only do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2624.824,"endTime":2630.264,"body":"good things?\" Well, ironically, those are good things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2631.164,"endTime":2633.443,"body":"Now, there's a difference between somebody dying of a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2633.443,"endTime":2637.744,"body":"sickness because of sin and saying, \"That's good,\" but God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2637.744,"endTime":2642.164,"body":"judging and sometimes taking life is good. Why? Because"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2643.003,"endTime":2647.864,"body":"God is good. So it's important we don't confuse what we think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2647.864,"endTime":2650.514,"body":"is good according to a human-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2650.514,"endTime":2650.514,"body":"Fair enough"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2650.514,"endTime":2654.384,"body":"... Metric and standard, according to what is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2654.384,"endTime":2658.704,"body":"good. So even if we don't understand, if we really believe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2658.704,"endTime":2662.264,"body":"God is good, like the Scriptures say, He's righteous, and He's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2662.264,"endTime":2666.563,"body":"justice, and He's merciful, and He's good in His character, He's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2666.563,"endTime":2671.983,"body":"holy, then His commands and actions will flow from that,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2671.983,"endTime":2675.744,"body":"even if we don't understand it. So I wouldn't say if someone"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2675.744,"endTime":2680.563,"body":"gets sick and die, \"God killed me.\" Now, God chose not to heal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2681.224,"endTime":2685.034,"body":"and chose to let us die. We may know why or have a good guess."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2685.034,"endTime":2688.003,"body":"We might not know until we get to Heaven, it might just be the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2688.003,"endTime":2693.824,"body":"natural result of sin. But barring some very clear prophecy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2693.824,"endTime":2696.443,"body":"that God is doing this, like we see the exception [chuckles] in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2696.443,"endTime":2699.684,"body":"the Bible, I would resist that. And I also think when you talk"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2699.684,"endTime":2700.184,"body":"about God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2701.003,"endTime":2703.884,"body":"ordaining in terms of controlling, yes, God is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2703.884,"endTime":2704.773,"body":"sovereign."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2705.284,"endTime":2709.403,"body":"All Christians agree on that. We believe God controls, but the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2709.403,"endTime":2714.244,"body":"question is, how does God control? There's no debate among"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2714.244,"endTime":2714.744,"body":"Christians-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2714.744,"endTime":2714.773,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2714.773,"endTime":2717.123,"body":"... That God is sovereign, as He does control,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2717.123,"endTime":2720.123,"body":"and He's moving history where He needs to. There's just going to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2720.123,"endTime":2723.483,"body":"be differences between, say, a Calvinist view, which leans into"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2723.483,"endTime":2726.744,"body":"God's sovereignty, and not all Calvinists, but more God,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2727.284,"endTime":2731.443,"body":"some moves in a deterministic kind of direction. Some would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2731.443,"endTime":2734.324,"body":"have more of God as maybe controlling and shaping our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2734.324,"endTime":2737.554,"body":"desires, and we just act according to those desires."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2738.103,"endTime":2740.423,"body":"And then others would say, \"Yeah, God controls, but we have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2740.423,"endTime":2745.304,"body":"genuine libertarian freedom, and God knows the free choices we're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2745.304,"endTime":2746.204,"body":"going to make"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2746.724,"endTime":2750.503,"body":"and creates a world in which we carry them out by our own"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2750.503,"endTime":2753.784,"body":"volition, but God is aware of it.\" So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2754.583,"endTime":2757.514,"body":"all... Every Christian [chuckles] perspective, from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2757.514,"endTime":2761.704,"body":"Arminianism to Calvinism to Molinism, is going to say, \"God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2761.704,"endTime":2764.744,"body":"is in control, and He's directing things,\" but they're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2764.744,"endTime":2768.264,"body":"going to differ over the means by which God does it, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2768.264,"endTime":2771.443,"body":"answering that would take us way beyond this podcast. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2771.443,"endTime":2773.403,"body":"Yeah, I just, I think to summarize, I would"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2773.403,"endTime":2776.844,"body":"say that we would distinguish between God's decreed will and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2776.844,"endTime":2778.563,"body":"His permissive will."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2778.563,"endTime":2778.943,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2778.943,"endTime":2781.284,"body":"Of those things that He directly causes and those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2781.284,"endTime":2785.284,"body":"things that He allows in His sovereignty."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2785.284,"endTime":2787.643,"body":"Fair enough, and even how we reconcile those two,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2787.643,"endTime":2789.903,"body":"[chuckles] your answer to that's gonna depend on your-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2789.903,"endTime":2790.114,"body":"Exactly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2790.114,"endTime":2791.483,"body":"... Theological system. And at Talbot, we have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2791.483,"endTime":2794.864,"body":"people who are more Arminians, some who embrace Molinism, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2794.864,"endTime":2798.324,"body":"some who have a Calvinist perspective. That's one thing I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2798.324,"endTime":2800.902,"body":"love about our school is you can come get, you know, weigh and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2800.902,"endTime":2803.684,"body":"debate and discuss this and figure out what you think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2803.684,"endTime":2807.994,"body":"Scripture says. All right, two more. This one, shifting gears"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2807.994,"endTime":2810.744,"body":"[chuckles] yet again, this person says- \"In Seven Days that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2810.744,"endTime":2813.724,"body":"Divide the World, John Lennox tries to reconcile the following"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2813.724,"endTime":2816.804,"body":"ideas.\" So the universe seems old. God specially created the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2816.804,"endTime":2822.003,"body":"universe and life and human beings. And his model, I'm not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2822.003,"endTime":2824.503,"body":"gonna go into details, is an old Earth"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2825.143,"endTime":2828.264,"body":"model. And the question is, \"Can you speak to whether you think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2828.264,"endTime":2831.083,"body":"these kinds of arguments are valid ways to reconcile on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2831.083,"endTime":2831.623,"body":"biblical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2832.324,"endTime":2836.983,"body":"and scientific data?\" I'm gonna make a 30,000-foot response"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2836.983,"endTime":2841.324,"body":"here, so to speak. There has been difference, and there are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2841.324,"endTime":2845.543,"body":"differences within the Church about how to reconcile what we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2845.543,"endTime":2848.603,"body":"understand as science, even before the formal scientific"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2848.603,"endTime":2849.233,"body":"revolution"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2850.143,"endTime":2853.903,"body":"and the Scriptures. There's not been one unanimous model"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2853.903,"endTime":2856.244,"body":"throughout the history of the Church, like there has been for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2856.244,"endTime":2860.204,"body":"marriage, by the way. That is a Catholic lowercase C view."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2860.204,"endTime":2860.603,"body":"There's been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2861.403,"endTime":2864.164,"body":"unanimity within the Church, not in practice, [chuckles] but in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2864.164,"endTime":2868.844,"body":"belief, until 50 years ago. That is not the case with the age of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2868.844,"endTime":2872.724,"body":"the Earth. So actually, in the updated Evidence Demands"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2872.724,"endTime":2875.364,"body":"Verdict, we put a chapter in there, and I think there's eight"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2875.364,"endTime":2881.023,"body":"or 10 where we said, \"These are broadly within orthodox position"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2881.023,"endTime":2885.014,"body":"that Christians can differ over.\" And some of those points"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2885.014,"endTime":2890.623,"body":"are that the Bible is true, that God is the Creator, I would say"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2890.623,"endTime":2896.623,"body":"a historical Adam, a historical Fall, and then how we work out"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2896.623,"endTime":2900.864,"body":"some of those details, Christians are going to differ."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2900.864,"endTime":2904.403,"body":"Now, a lot is obviously at stake in terms of how we understand"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2904.403,"endTime":2906.99,"body":"science.... Old Earth versus"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2907.55,"endTime":2911.51,"body":"young Earth, the way we would interpret modern physics in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2911.51,"endTime":2914.612,"body":"cosmology, for example, or evolutionary,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2915.132,"endTime":2919.672,"body":"biology. There's a lot at stake for how we think about science,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2919.672,"endTime":2923.231,"body":"but there's also a lot at stake for how we understand the Bible,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2923.231,"endTime":2926.672,"body":"and theologically, how do we understand the genre of Genesis?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2926.672,"endTime":2930.291,"body":"Is this poetry? Is this history, these long days? Is it not even"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2930.291,"endTime":2932.751,"body":"trying to map up science with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2933.271,"endTime":2934.692,"body":"history? So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2935.452,"endTime":2938.572,"body":"I would just say, I think we even have some people here at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2938.572,"endTime":2940.871,"body":"Talbot, again, some that are old Earthers,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2941.431,"endTime":2942.612,"body":"some who are young Earthers,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2943.152,"endTime":2947.26,"body":"but all believe in kind of those guideposts that I laid out. And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2947.26,"endTime":2950.331,"body":"I would say John Lennox's book, Seven Days That Divide the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2950.331,"endTime":2954.431,"body":"World, is one old Earth perspective, and he points back"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2954.431,"endTime":2957.49,"body":"to some church fathers to make his case in the second, third,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2957.49,"endTime":2962.092,"body":"and fourth centuries. That is a piece of a tradition within the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2962.092,"endTime":2965.911,"body":"church. Not gonna wade into the details of it, but I think it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2965.911,"endTime":2969.99,"body":"a live option that Christians should look to, as well as other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2969.99,"endTime":2973.311,"body":"positions when addressing this topic."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2973.311,"endTime":2975.572,"body":"That's, that's a really good take on that. I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2975.572,"endTime":2979.092,"body":"appreciate the framework that you put this in."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2980.411,"endTime":2984.53,"body":"And I think as long as long as people recognize that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2985.971,"endTime":2989.891,"body":"the uniqueness of where the Earth is placed in the solar"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2989.891,"endTime":2990.311,"body":"system"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2991.132,"endTime":2994.231,"body":"is a marker of a brilliant creator God-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2994.811,"endTime":2995.351,"body":"Amen"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2995.351,"endTime":2998.652,"body":"... And that there are lots of things in the human"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2998.652,"endTime":3004.192,"body":"body that are signposts to a brilliant creator God,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3005.632,"endTime":3009.891,"body":"then I think that's more what matters to me- ... That we see."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3009.891,"endTime":3011.952,"body":"I think that you're right about a historical Adam and Eve,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3011.952,"endTime":3012.192,"body":"because"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3012.971,"endTime":3015.99,"body":"Paul's statements in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3016.692,"endTime":3018.26,"body":"death and resurrection of Jesus-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3018.26,"endTime":3018.26,"body":"I think that's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3018.26,"endTime":3020.221,"body":"... Have a lot to do with the Fall."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3020.221,"endTime":3020.24,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3020.24,"endTime":3021.711,"body":"Adam and Eve and the Fall being-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3021.711,"endTime":3021.721,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3021.721,"endTime":3022.211,"body":"... Historical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3022.731,"endTime":3026.51,"body":"people and events. So I'm not sure, I'm not quite sure how you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3026.51,"endTime":3028.311,"body":"put those things together-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3028.311,"endTime":3028.322,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3028.322,"endTime":3030.411,"body":"... If you, if you don't hold to a historical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3031.03,"endTime":3033.831,"body":"Adam and Eve and a historical fall into sin."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3034.55,"endTime":3038.99,"body":"So, I, whether, you know, I don't, I don't have a big set"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3038.99,"endTime":3042.53,"body":"of preferences about whether the Earth is old or young."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3044.05,"endTime":3047.391,"body":"But I, what I, what I am most interested in is that we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3047.391,"endTime":3048.05,"body":"acknowledge"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3048.771,"endTime":3049.152,"body":"that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3050.172,"endTime":3052.931,"body":"the, sort of what I, what apologists refer to as the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3052.931,"endTime":3056.431,"body":"teleological argument from God, that God, that the, that the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3056.431,"endTime":3059.49,"body":"Earth's, the Earth speaks forth the glory of God. The Earth"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3060.211,"endTime":3062.632,"body":"speaks forth His handiwork as a creator."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3064.112,"endTime":3066.132,"body":"That's, I think, what matters to me, and I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3066.132,"endTime":3068.211,"body":"appreciate... I think that's what matters to this listener,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3068.211,"endTime":3068.431,"body":"too."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3069.092,"endTime":3070.791,"body":"That at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3071.632,"endTime":3075.51,"body":"that we recognize that God is an intelligent designer, and that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3076.452,"endTime":3080.211,"body":"the complexity, even at the cellular level, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3080.211,"endTime":3083.351,"body":"complexity of the body is not, probably not something that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3083.351,"endTime":3085.03,"body":"could have arisen by chance alone."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3085.99,"endTime":3087.311,"body":"I agree with that. I think the key is that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3087.311,"endTime":3091.851,"body":"God is the Creator, has revealed Himself through His Word,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3092.471,"endTime":3097.612,"body":"sent His Son to die for death, to reverse the sin of Adam."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3098.49,"endTime":3101.49,"body":"This is the broader story that matters. Exactly when God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3101.49,"endTime":3105.55,"body":"created and how He created, not unimportant to how we understand"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3105.55,"endTime":3105.871,"body":"science-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3105.871,"endTime":3106.121,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3106.121,"endTime":3107.112,"body":"... And the text, but not"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3107.731,"endTime":3110.152,"body":"central to the faith itself."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3110.891,"endTime":3114.24,"body":"I actually view it as a strength that there's different views,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3114.24,"endTime":3117.112,"body":"and we have these debates within the church. I mean, one of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3117.112,"endTime":3119.871,"body":"arguments young Earthers will make is, \"Can you have death"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3119.871,"endTime":3120.751,"body":"before the Fall?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3121.351,"endTime":3122.871,"body":"And that's a really interesting question."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3122.871,"endTime":3123.251,"body":"Good question."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3123.251,"endTime":3126.231,"body":"There seems to be death built into the world,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3126.231,"endTime":3129.53,"body":"and it seems to the result of Fall. How do you reconcile that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3129.53,"endTime":3132.871,"body":"with an older Earth? Fair question. Old Earthers like John"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3132.871,"endTime":3136.431,"body":"Lennox will bring in some of the challenges of science that seem"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3136.431,"endTime":3139.811,"body":"to push back firmly against a young Earth, and then there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3139.811,"endTime":3142.271,"body":"science from the other side, of course, and theology from the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3142.271,"endTime":3144.751,"body":"other side. We don't have to settle that here, but I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3144.751,"endTime":3148.952,"body":"it's a strength, not a weakness, that there's a range of options"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3149.55,"endTime":3152.771,"body":"faithful Christians can hold. Last question for you. You ready"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3152.771,"endTime":3155.751,"body":"for this one? And this one is in your lane, [chuckles] so you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3155.751,"endTime":3158.192,"body":"probably got six or seven of these, in fairness."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3158.192,"endTime":3159.01,"body":"Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3159.01,"endTime":3160.51,"body":"So this person's talking about the conversation"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3160.51,"endTime":3164.612,"body":"we've had about abortion, and we both clearly consider abortion a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3164.612,"endTime":3170.49,"body":"moral wrong, but we oppose laws that would impose crit- criminal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3170.49,"endTime":3174.791,"body":"penalties on women. Help us understand the reasoning behind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3174.791,"endTime":3177.652,"body":"this position. Why does it seem like you both would prefer an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3177.652,"endTime":3180.851,"body":"exception kinda to the rule for women who do something that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3180.851,"endTime":3183.971,"body":"morally wrong and not have a penalty, when you seemingly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3183.971,"endTime":3187.452,"body":"would for other moral wrongs like this?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3187.452,"endTime":3189.59,"body":"Well, let me think, let me think about it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3189.59,"endTime":3191.652,"body":"prin- by principle first."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3191.652,"endTime":3191.851,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3191.851,"endTime":3192.891,"body":"'Cause I think, to be fair,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3194.192,"endTime":3197.731,"body":"it is largely driven by, not largely, but somewhat driven by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3197.731,"endTime":3199.931,"body":"pragmatism on this. And the re- the pragmatic-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3200.771,"endTime":3203.132,"body":"... Thing is that if"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3204.01,"endTime":3206.632,"body":"there, if there are criminal sanctions on the women who have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3206.632,"endTime":3207.391,"body":"abortions,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3208.271,"endTime":3208.59,"body":"then"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3209.132,"endTime":3212.391,"body":"the likelihood of laws being passed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3213.072,"endTime":3216.211,"body":"in those states that would protect the unborn, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3216.211,"endTime":3220.55,"body":"diminishes significantly. And if our goal is to protect more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3220.55,"endTime":3224.532,"body":"unborn children than less, and this can be a means by which we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3224.532,"endTime":3228.471,"body":"do that's not fundamentally immoral, then I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3228.471,"endTime":3229.59,"body":"in favor of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3230.172,"endTime":3232.411,"body":"But here's another way to think about this, is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3232.971,"endTime":3236.202,"body":"the woman is actually not the one who is committing the crime."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3237.411,"endTime":3242.172,"body":"It's the physician- ... Who is the direct agent of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3242.172,"endTime":3245.271,"body":"death of the unborn child. And this is... I think this is the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3245.271,"endTime":3247.811,"body":"reason why in s- in some states that have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3248.51,"endTime":3250.711,"body":"laws where abortion is illegal, it's the physician's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3251.452,"endTime":3254.831,"body":"action that's criminalized, not the mother's. Now, I think you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3254.831,"endTime":3257.871,"body":"can make, you can make a pretty decent moral argument that the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3257.871,"endTime":3260.192,"body":"mother is at best, highly complicit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3260.871,"endTime":3264.672,"body":"in that decision, but I think she's, she is one step removed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3264.672,"endTime":3265.771,"body":"from the cause"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3266.532,"endTime":3267.815,"body":"of it.... And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3268.556,"endTime":3271.715,"body":"I think I'm o- I'm open to conversation about the degree to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3271.715,"endTime":3273.715,"body":"which that makes a moral difference."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3275.016,"endTime":3279.096,"body":"But I think that's, in part, the reason why, the laws are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3279.096,"endTime":3281.335,"body":"structured the way they are. And I would,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3281.956,"endTime":3285.056,"body":"I, again, I have, I have huge s- huge sympathy"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3285.576,"endTime":3288.255,"body":"for pregnant women who are desperate,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3288.876,"endTime":3291.456,"body":"who, you know, maybe, you know, maybe having a child, they have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3291.456,"endTime":3294.135,"body":"no way to think about even how they're gonna care for this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3294.135,"endTime":3297.896,"body":"child. They may be, you know, they may be addicted, they may"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3297.896,"endTime":3301.016,"body":"be poor- ... They may be out of work, or they may be, they may"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3301.016,"endTime":3304.655,"body":"be very young. The, the pregnancy might be the result of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3304.655,"endTime":3307.255,"body":"a relationship that they regret, and there are a whole host of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3307.255,"endTime":3307.916,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3309.135,"endTime":3309.456,"body":"And so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3310.135,"endTime":3313.675,"body":"I don't, I don't, I don't-- I'm uncomfortable piling on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3314.295,"endTime":3314.996,"body":"to the woman"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3315.536,"endTime":3318.436,"body":"who may be in very desperate circumstances, where"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3319.056,"endTime":3321.715,"body":"I think the physician, this is recognized, the physician is the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3321.715,"endTime":3323.615,"body":"actual direct cause."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3323.615,"endTime":3324.876,"body":"That's a really interesting answer. It's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3324.876,"endTime":3329.956,"body":"combination of pragmatism to save lives, but also the nature"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3329.956,"endTime":3333.996,"body":"of who is doing the wrong. And of course, the question comes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3333.996,"endTime":3338.056,"body":"in, how much might a woman still be complicit? I think in some of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3338.056,"endTime":3340.615,"body":"the interviews you and I have done, ones I've done separately,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3340.615,"endTime":3343.775,"body":"of women who've had abortions and repented from this and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3343.775,"endTime":3345.385,"body":"experienced healing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3345.916,"endTime":3348.755,"body":"a number of women who have survived abortions and talk"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3348.755,"endTime":3350.215,"body":"about the conditions that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3350.876,"endTime":3355.036,"body":"their mother was put in, and really just, in some ways,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3355.036,"endTime":3359.476,"body":"powerless and victims in many cases, gives me a lot of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3359.476,"endTime":3359.896,"body":"sympathy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3360.596,"endTime":3365.376,"body":"for a woman who has an abortion. That's great. We-- There's... In"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3365.376,"endTime":3368.036,"body":"some ways, we could probably do a full show on that, as I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3368.036,"endTime":3370.155,"body":"about it, 'cause it's a question that comes up, and I don't hear"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3370.155,"endTime":3373.356,"body":"a lot of clarity on that point. I think you've given us, you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3373.356,"endTime":3375.496,"body":"know, two or three good principles to think about, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3375.496,"endTime":3376.405,"body":"maybe that's something we'll-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3376.405,"endTime":3377.556,"body":"But we've, we've, we've just scratched the surface"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3377.556,"endTime":3377.715,"body":"on that one."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3377.715,"endTime":3379.235,"body":"Yeah. Maybe we'll come back full circle on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3379.235,"endTime":3379.755,"body":"this one."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3379.755,"endTime":3379.905,"body":"Good."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3379.905,"endTime":3381.695,"body":"All right, folks, there you have it, 10"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3381.695,"endTime":3385.626,"body":"questions all over the map, from miscarriage to,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3386.235,"endTime":3390.275,"body":"all sorts of topics related to abortion and the age of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3390.275,"endTime":3392.556,"body":"earth and the sovereignty of God, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3392.556,"endTime":3393.675,"body":"And, and everything in between."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3393.675,"endTime":3395.416,"body":"And everything in between. If you have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3395.416,"endTime":3399.436,"body":"questions for Scott or for myself, send them our way. You"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3399.436,"endTime":3403.045,"body":"can email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. We're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3403.045,"endTime":3405.295,"body":"gonna come back maybe once a month and take your questions"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3405.295,"endTime":3405.786,"body":"like this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":3405.786,"endTime":3405.835,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3405.835,"endTime":3408.795,"body":"So make sure you hit Subscribe to this podcast,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3408.795,"endTime":3411.896,"body":"Think Biblically. Follow the YouTube channel. We've got a lot"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3411.896,"endTime":3415.195,"body":"more coming for you from Talbot School of Theology at Biola"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3415.195,"endTime":3418.155,"body":"University, and we'd love for you to think about coming and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3418.155,"endTime":3421.275,"body":"studying with us. Thanks for watching. We hope you'll"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3421.275,"endTime":3429.936,"body":"consider sharing this with a friend. [upbeat music]"}]}